#312: Selling With Integrity

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With well over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries, the word selling or sales has a very negative connotation among writers. So much so that I often avoid using the word in my content because I don't want to scare people off and I just want them to concentrate on the process, the strategy, the idea, and not get carried away with the fact that, oh, this is supposed to be selling. I think many of us associate selling with things like talking people into doing something they don't want to do, or high pressure tactics, the kind that used car salesmen use, the telemarketers used to use back in the day and I guess still today. And the thing is that that's not selling at all. Selling is not about pounding somebody over the head with an idea and making them do something they don't want to do. It's all about having a conversation. And when you start to really understand what selling is about and how to do it well and doing it with integrity and without an agenda, your business will improve in a big way. You'll start landing more and better clients at higher fees. You'll look forward to prospect conversations, and you'll feel much more confident about your value and your ability to bring more the right kind of business in the door. My guest today will give you a very different way to think about sales and selling. Her name is Nikki Rauch. She is a selling Coach and the CEO of Sales Maven. She has over 25 years of selling experience and her specialty is helping entrepreneurs, small business owners and solo professionals sell successfully and authentically. Nicky has written three books which you can find on Amazon and and she is the host of the Sales Maven podcast in which she recently interviewed me to discuss something very different that I haven't really talked about much out there before, which is how I personally break down and approach complex challenges. We have a link to that episode in the show notes if you want to check it out. But in this interview with Nicky, you're going to discover why most of us think about selling the wrong way. Also, a much healthier and authentic way to approach your selling process, how to approach prospect conversations much more effectively and with greater confidence and how to frame and pre frame sales conversations so you can get the information you need faster and don't end up with these one hour prospect conversations that, you know, just take up a bunch of your time and end up going nowhere while also presenting yourself as the obvious choice. I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation. I think it's gonna change your mind about selling and how to do it right and how to do it in a way that feels authentic and with integrity and just makes you want to actually have these conversations with prospects and clients. So with that, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Nikki Rauch. Nikki, welcome back to the show.

Thanks for having me back. I'm excited.

I'm excited to have you again. Love talking to you. I think we're so well aligned on so many of these topics. And of course you've had way more experience on this stuff. And I like the way you frame some of these things. Cause it really helps me and my listeners really think about sales differently. Now, before we get to the good stuff, had you on a couple years ago. So I know there are people who are very familiar with your work. But for those who are not, tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, where you came from. The Nikki story.

The Nikki story. Okay. Well, my company is sales maven and I am a sales coach. I focus and specialize in the conversation of sales and my approach to sales is very collaborative. So I teach people how to sell with people instead of sell to them. And you know, it's not the convincing. Like I'm not into convincing. I'm not into manipulating. It's all really, really, really about collaboration and relationship and all of it's built on rapport. My background is a professional sales rep. I've been in sales for over 25 years and I also have a pretty extensive background in neuro linguistic programming. So I bring the sales piece and I bring the communication piece and that is why I specialize in the conversation of sales. And I love building people's confidence around having quality sales conversations and attracting your ideal clients and blessing and releasing the people who are not a good fit.

I love that blessing and releasing. That's great. We're going to talk more about that. I'm curious about. For those who are not familiar with nlp, Neuro linguistic programming, first of all, what is it and how does that factor into your work?

So it's really the study of communication. So neuro, the way we're processing information in our brains. So that's the neuro part of it. The linguistics part is language. So how do you speak to others? How do they speak to you? Picking up language patterns. And also it also addresses any of that internal dialogue that we've got going on in our head. Most of us got, you know, a voice or two or three going on in our head all the time. And then the programming part is about habits and patterns. And so how I bring this into my work. And NLP has been used, it's used all around the world. It's used in all different types of modalities. There's a lot of, you know, doctors study NLP for patient compliance. Therapists study it for helping people make change. You know, salespeople study it because it helps them build stronger relationships. You know, managers study it because it helps them be a better leader. So I bring it into my work. I have found. And I had a really unique experience because when I was studying in lp, I was a traveling sales rep. And so I was working with a lot of different people all the time. And so I had a really great test ground where I could bring it in and test it in the different conversations that I was having. And that's really where I got to hone my skills around nlp. And I started studying it because I thought it would make me better at sales. And it did. But what it really did is it made me a much better communicator. And because I became a better communicator, it improved all of the relationships, the important relationships in my life. And so because I understand the power of it and I understand the power of language and communication, this is why I bring it into my work now, what I teach.

Got it. So it's not, I think a lot of people I've talked to have this impression that it's some kind of manipulation technique where. Where it's really not what I'm hearing from you. It's really a better way to communicate.

More effectively, I think so. I mean, like anything when you're really, really good at it, you can use whatever you're really good at to be use it for good or you can use it for bad. Right? So I laugh because years ago, apparently there was a book written that was called how to Use NLP to Pick Up Chicks. Now that seems manipulative, but at the same time, you know, there's guys out there trying to pick up chicks. So if you have a better strategy on how to do it. So yes, it can be, I think, used in a manipulative way. Some of the techniques when I teach them I specifically say, please use it. Use this with a high level of integrity because there is some power to what you're doing. But ultimately, you know, you're working with adults. The people I work with are selling to adults. They're going to make their own decisions. And if you approach anybody from this place of I'm going to manipulate you, I'm going to convince you, we're pretty savvy nowadays as consumers, and we pick that stuff up. So if you feel like somebody's being manipulative with you, please vote with your wallet. Do not give them your money.

Amen. Amen. Well said. Okay, I want to kind of frame our conversation in terms of how we can change the way we think about and use sales in our business. I tend to avoid the word in my podcast and in my training because I find that most people, especially in my audience, they really, really shy away from that word. We know we seem to have this negative view of selling, and I think I could summarize it by saying that selling is bad. Selling is about persuading people to do things and buy things they don't need. And I think many of us kind of grew up having dinner and the phone ringing and picking it up, and it being a telemarketer or the used car sales lot, and they used cars. So we have these views, these perceptions of sell that are not accurate. So today I'd like to talk a little bit about that, but really focus our whole conversation on framing and reframing. How can we reframe how we think about sales? How can we reframe the conversations that we have with prospects and clients? How can we reframe the way we talk about our services, our offers, you know, and our proposals or quotes? So let's start with, I guess, the basic thing, which is what is selling and what is not selling? Because I. I think if we don't have agreement there, you know, in terms of us with our listeners, it's going to be very difficult for them to really take some of the stuff in.

Yeah. The way that I think about sales, the way I teach sales, the way I do sales, is sales is something that you do with somebody. It's not something you do to somebody. When you're doing something to somebody that feels manipulative, that feels gross, frankly, and it feels like it's all about you. When you start to approach sales as a. With a collaborative approach to it, your job is never to convince anybody to buy from you. That's not your job in sales. And anybody who tells you it is has a skewed impression of what sales is. Your job in a sales conversation is to understand does this person have some type of a problem, a need or a want, and do I have a solution that will meet that need or want, and am I interested in being of service to this other person? And if the answer is yes, they have a problem, yes, I have a solution, and yes, I'm interested in being of service to this person, then I think you have an obligation to put that whatever it is, product, service in front of the other person and allow them to decide, yes, I would like to buy that in this case or no, that's not the right fit for me. So that's how I think about sales. It's collaborative, it is a. With conversation. It's not a to. It's not something you're doing to people. You shouldn't be talking at people, you should be talking with people. And you'll find that this idea of sales being bad and sales being gross will completely reframe because you'll start to look at it as you're being of service. And if somebody declines, you know, taking advantage of whatever it is that you put in front of them, it's not personal, it's just not the right fit. And you don't need to lament about it, you don't need to beat yourself up about it, and you don't need to beat them up about it. You just move on to who does have the right need, want, and they're ready to make that commitment with you. That's all it is.

I really like that thinking because then that leads to how do you do that? How do you find that? And it all points to conversation, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you have to have a conversation. So can you speak a little bit to that? Because I know that conversation and when I say conversation, I know that many conversations can start over email electronically. Right. But eventually you gotta have a real conversation. Can you speak a little bit about the importance of real conversation in the sales process?

Yes. Well, here's, I think the first thing that you need to remember about a conversation, and this is probably the thing people most often forget when they approach a sales conversation, is they forget that a conversation is a two way back and forth. It's not me talking at you, it's not me like word vomiting my offer all over you. A conversation is, you know, I speak a little bit, you speak a little bit, then I speak a little. It's like this exchange, it's this back and forth. So there's an ebb and flow to it. Now you can set up your conversations to be more impactful, be more effective, be more strategic. And you do that by pre framing the start of your conversation with somebody so that you're both on the same page. So it's not like you walking up to somebody and being like, look, I'm going to sell to you. Ready? Here I go, right? Like, that's not going to work. Most people are going to be like, no, thanks, bye, you know, move on. But if somebody shows up in a conversation, they're ready to have a sales conversation with you. If you pre frame the start of that conversation, you kind of put everybody on the same page and you put everybody at ease. And it also shows a real respect for the other person. So an example of a pre frame, if you and I were going to have a conversation, you've expressed some type of interest or, you know, you want to find out a little bit more about what I do or who I serve or whatever, and we agree to have this conversation. The start of my conversation with you is. So the purpose of our call today. This is, I'm going to state the purpose. So the purpose of our call today is to chat a little bit more about what's going on for you and see if I have a solution that would meet whatever it is that you're in need of right now. That's not a great way to say it, but that's a version of it. So state the purpose, say what the purpose is. Okay, so the purpose of it. And then I'm going to say we're scheduled to chat for about and I'm going to insert an amount of time. So it could be 15 minutes, could be 30 minutes. Your initial kind of conversations with people really shouldn't be an hour. I'm just going to say that. And we can go into detail about that if you want to. But so I, I might say we're scheduled to chat for about 20, 25 minutes. Does that still work for you? So you are the client in this or you're the prospect in this particular part of, you know, the example I'm giving. So I need to show respect, make sure that the timing still works. But I'm also setting some parameters like this is not a pick my brain session. You know, this is like, here's what we're going to do. This is the amount of time. Does that still work for you? Chances are you're going to say yes. And if you say no, if you're like, gosh, I only have 15 minutes because I have another appointment. I need to know that. I need to know that going in. And once you agree to the amount of time, the next thing I'm going to say is, I'm going to ask a question. It's a permission question. I'm going to say, now, in order to make this time meaningful and productive for you, is it okay if I start with a couple quick questions? I'm going to pace you, I'm going to ask permission to ask you some questions, and then I'm going to lead the conversation, because whoever's asking the questions holds the power in the conversation. So I'm going to ask permission to take the lead, and that will put the prospect at ease, because now they know what's going to happen, and now they've either agreed or they've said no. I just want to ask you some questions, and then you can, you know, take it from there. But nine out of 10 people, when you say to them, in order to make this meaningful and productive for you, is it okay if I start with a couple quick questions? Actually, I can't even remember the last time I had anybody say no.

I don't know if I would think it'd be more than nine out of ten.

Yeah, it's probably like 99.9% people are like, yeah, yeah, go ahead. And now they're at ease because they know what to expect. And now I can start with some questions. And then the questions that you ask are so crucial. These are the questions that you ask for you to establish what is their problem, what's their need, and do I have a solution that meets that need, and do I want to work with this person?

Yes.

Because it isn't always. Not everybody is going to be a good client for you. And even people who want to give you money may not be a good fit for your business. And you need to know that in that initial conversation. You need to uncover that.

So before, and I'm dying to hear, like, what kind of questions we're talking about here to kind of jumpstart the discussion. But before we do that in your preamble. Right. Hey, the purpose of our call today is do you ever say maybe? I think this is implied, but I like to say it, and I don't know if maybe I've been doing it the wrong way, is to see if what your situation is, what your challenge is, and to see if I have a solution that could meet that. Right. But I always take the extra step and say if it seems like we may have a match, then, you know, I can explain how I may be able to help you. And if we don't, then I'll let you know that as well. I kind of like to show them that, you know, it's A or B, and I'm good with either one of them. Like, I don't have an agenda other than trying to find out if we have a potential match. Do you go to that extent, or do you kind of leave that part out?

So I don't typically go to the extent of doing that. There's no reason for you to not do it. Okay. I'm not saying, like, ed, knock it off. Don't do that anymore because of this or that. I think the fact that you're doing it, it's fine. It's authentic to you. The one thing that I would be really careful about, and this isn't specifically to you or how you phrased it, I would be a little, like, I'd want to hear the way somebody's phrasing it, because sometimes we phrase things of, like, it's almost like we already start talking people out of hiring us. Like, you know, like, there's a good chance you might not even need my services. No, don't say that. Yeah, yeah, you don't need to say that. Right. So it's how you say it, because how you say it matters. I truly believe you can say just about anything to anybody. But how you deliver that, how you frame it, is going to determine how that person typically will receive it. So it's really important in how you frame it. So there's nothing wrong with you saying, you know, the purpose of our call is to find out more about you, see what's going on, see if I have a solution for you, if I have a solution that'll meet your needs. We can talk about that at the end. And if I don't, I'll just say that up front. There's nothing wrong with saying it that way.

Makes sense. All right, thank you for that. So I'm curious. What questions do you typically start with?

So the questions that you want to ask are questions that lead people down this path to hiring you. So I just want to comment on this, and then I'll give you some specific questions. One of the mistakes that people often make in this process is they start asking a lot of questions that you really only need the answers to those questions once somebody hires you. Okay. And that's a mistake because they haven't hired you yet, and you're wasting a lot of precious time and energy asking them to share information that may turn out you didn't need. And that's a waste of that conversation. It's a waste of time for them. It's a waste of time for you. So what are the questions that lead people to hiring you? You want to start to plant some seeds with your questions. Now, here's a question that I actually do recommend almost everybody ask what's important to you in regards to. And then you insert whatever the topic is that you're talking. So for me, I might say, what's important to you this year in regards to your sales goals? Because I talk to people about sales goals and I help them achieve their sales goals. Right. So I'm only going to ask a question about something that I do now that is going to give me and then I can follow up based on their answer to that question. I can follow up and say, so where are you in relation to hitting that particular goal? Because this starts to give me some like, okay, so there's some type of a gap here. Can I help close that gap for them? So I'm trying to understand that. So you might say to somebody, so what's important to this year about building your copywriting business? What are your goals around that?

Let me give you a. Because I think my listeners are. They encounter one or two different situations. One is by the time they get to the call, there's been some email back and forth about a specific type of project. We're looking to get this white paper published or written and published.

Okay.

We're looking for somebody to help us with it. So they have a specific project in mind that they've already identified. And then the other could be something one level beneath that in that we really need to communicate this idea. We're not really sure how and what format. So something kind of in that category. They haven't identified the solution yet.

Yeah.

But they're close to it and they may even have some ideas. Should we do A, B or C? But I would say that 80% of the time when you're dealing with a more sophisticated client, they've identified the solution already. They're looking for the right person and they're maybe open to taking a different approach. But so in those instances, I'm wondering if going with too high level of question might feel a little bit detached.

So the example that you just gave about, we're looking for a white paper to be written. We know we need it. The question I would ask that one of my first questions would be what is your criteria for determining who you're going to choose to write that white paper for you? What criteria will you be using? Because you need to know that. Because then when you make back your proposal, you need to use whatever answers they gave you to the criteria needs to be a part of that proposal, whether it's a formal proposal that's written that you're sending back to them, or whether it's just part of the conversation. But I'm looking for key phrases that people are giving and I'm looking for like, how do I get to the heart of the matter of towards me if as long as I have a solution and I want to work with them. Now, the second example of like, we know we want to put this information out there, but we're not really sure. I would probably ask some more specific questions, like, what have you tried in the past to deliver information and what has been well received and what hasn't from your audience? That kind of information. And maybe they know it and maybe they don't. But I would ask a question like that because here's the thing. If they don't know it, if they don't know the answer to that question, that's an indicator that you're paying attention to something they're not even sure how to track. That also starts to set you apart as being credible of like, oh, here's somebody who's asking me a question about something that maybe I should be able to answer. And this person can probably help me determine that information. And I need to know that in order to put out effective, like, content. So you also, again, these are those, like, you want to ask questions that lead people down this path to hiring you. I think I share this, or I know I've shared this maybe with your group. And I don't know if I shared this on the last interview that we did, but one of the questions that I almost always ask when I'm talking to a prospective client is, do you know how to create curiosity when you're talking about your services? The reason I asked that question is because 9 out of 10 people don't know. And it's one of the things that I teach really, really well. So I'm going to ask that question because it plants the seed. Like, I don't know how to create curiosity. Here's somebody who's asking me about it. I'll bet she knows how to do it and can show me how. Right. So think about the way you're framing your questions. We want to be planting seeds about the things that you are capable of, the things that are your expertise, your superpowers, those should be a part of your questions, too, because then people start to go, ooh, this person knows something that I don't know. And we're not trying to make the client feel less than. We're just trying to help them understand. Framing your questions. We want to be planting seeds about the things that you are capable of, the things that are your expertise, your superpowers. Those should be a part of your questions, too, because then people start to go, ooh, this person knows something that I don't know. And we're not trying to make the client feel less than. We're just trying to help them understand. Like, you're talking to an expert here. You're talking to somebody who can help you in these particular areas. Because I wouldn't ask the question if I couldn't offer a solution. So that's another thing.

I love that. So think about what would be something that makes you different, unique, something that you. Like you said your superpower. And build. Create a question around that. Basically the equivalent question. Yeah, that's great. I don't remember you sharing that last time. Okay, that's fantastic.

Thank you.

I love that. So I also like the fact that you're approaching this call with real curiosity. You're really trying to find a. Because it seems like you're putting yourself at the same level instead of being subservient in treating it as an interview that goes both ways. Right. They're interviewing you, but you're interviewing them because you're really trying to find out that there's a match. That's very different from approaching that with an agenda of I need to close this deal.

Yes. Yeah. So in a sales conversation, there should be a balance of power. If your prospect, if you're giving them all the power because you just want to close the deal, you just want the sale, they will take advantage of that, and they'll feel that from you. It will become apparent. And when you approach sales from that place, it's kind of like people can smell the desperation. And when you're in those situations, people will take advantage, mostly because it's human nature. I'm not going to go into too much detail, but I'll give you a really simple example of how you know this is true. Go to a really busy parking lot where people are just like, everybody's scrambling to find a parking space. There's been a study that's proven that if people are waiting for your parking space, you will take longer to pull out of it than if nobody's waiting. We have a little like it's human nature. Now, I'm not saying it's you specifically, but it's true. There is a study done about parking spaces. And this is like the results is that people will take longer to, to exit a parking space if somebody's waiting for it than if nobody's waiting for it. Because we act like it's my parking space, I own it and I'll give it to you when I feel like it. When you act in sales as if I'm just here to earn your business, I just want your business so bad, you are basically waiting for their parking space. Knock it off. Because they'll feel it and they'll take advantage. Now on the flip side, if you hold all the power in the conversation as the seller, and you treat or act as if the prospect should be subservient to you, they will oftentimes go and hire somebody else. Because we're savvy as consumers and we know that there's other people out there that do what you do or do what I do. And you can find somebody else who's a better fit for you. So even if they might buy something from you, they won't become long term clients because they'll feel like you're always taking advantage of them. And so there should always be a balance of power. And the way you can balance power out in that conversation is yes, you're asking them the questions, but you give them the opportunity to answer. You don't talk over them, you don't tell them why their answers are wrong. You don't ask a question, get their answer and start selling to them. No, you go through your list of questions, you have a conversation, you ask them what questions they have for you, Give them an opportunity to ask you questions so they can hold the power. Give them a chance to be the expert. They are the experts on what they know. Now it doesn't mean that all the information they have is accurate about your profession, about what you do, but give them an opportunity to be the expert too. Balance out that power. Don't act subservient in those conversations and don't act superior because you will lose business on both sides.

Agreed? Yeah. I've seen this go south many times before, and you're right. It's the imbalance of power. One category of questions that I really love, that I find most people shy away from is what I call the decision making process. Questions meaning like, how are they going about finding a solution, a solution provider, the decision. And you mentioned one earlier. It's like, what's important to you? And I'm curious. Can you share some more questions in this category? Because I find that if you shy away from these questions, you're not going to have a real understanding of how they're going about this and whether or not they're going to be a good fit, whether or not you're wasting your time. But they seem confrontational, I think, to a lot of people. Right. So maybe that's my perception. But I try to. Me, I'm not afraid to ask these questions anymore. I used to be. But what kind of questions could you ask with the understanding that, you know, we're going to link, by the way, to our previous episode where you went step by step through the selling staircase, which is extremely valuable, and I urge everyone to check it out. But this type of question specifically, I feel that most creative professionals shy away from.

Okay, so when I'm thinking about direct questions and tell me if I'm on track to what you're thinking, is one question that people often are afraid to ask is, who's going to be involved in the decision making?

Yes.

But there's a way to frame that question so it lands really softly. So you don't want to hear this. So you don't say, like, so who are the decision makers? And the reason you don't say this is because if you just happen to be talking to somebody who's an information gatherer and not a decision maker, they might feel a little pinched by you because they might be like, so you're assuming that I'm not the decision maker. Or like, you know, like, you're talking down to them in some way. So the way you frame that question is you say, now whom besides yourself is involved in the decision making? Because you assume, you presuppose that of course, they have influence in the decision, otherwise they wouldn't be on a call with you. So they might say, oh, I don't. I'm not involved in the decision. That's okay. At least you were respectful. So whom besides yourself is involved in the decision making? Now, another question that's a decision question that people often are afraid to ask is timeframe for purchase. Like, what's your timeframe for getting this project done? When are you planning to start? Like, it's okay to ask those very direct questions now. It's what you do with your voice that's also going to impact how it lands. So if you say, like, what's your time frame that's pretty, like, oh, geez, kind of aggressive. But if you ask from a place of curiosity, so you could even say, so I'm curious, what's your timeframe for making a decision about who you're gonna hire? It could just be that. And then the last one that people are always afraid to ask is budget money investment. Right? It's like, oh, no, I can't ask this question. I just had this conversation with a client last week where she was super excited. She's like, nikki, they want this huge proposal from me. I need your help. And I was like, great, what's their budget? And she's like, I was afraid to ask. And I was like, how can we put together a proposal if we don't know that question? We have to ask that question. And sometimes you have to, like, pin people down a little bit with it because they don't want to answer. They're afraid to answer whatever they don't know. But there are things that you can do that will help frame and get an answer for you. So, for instance, don't be afraid to say they're afraid to answer whatever they don't know. But there are things that you can do. Hey, to somebody, what are you looking to invest in a program like this? Or what are you looking to invest in hiring somebody to complete this project for you? And if they go, I have no idea. We've never hired anybody like this before. We don't know what it costs. Then your response is, typically, projects like this range between 10,000 and 25,000. Given that range, where do you fit?

Yeah.

Now, when you ask this question, you. You put it back on them like, so where do you fit in that range? And it doesn't matter what the range is. It could be whatever you. You know, be truthful about it. And then you ask, where do you fit in that range? And then you zip it and you wait. You let there be some silence, and you let them answer.

I want to underscore that because that right there, the. Shut up and wait.

Yes.

I. I would think most people have a problems with that.

It's hard. It's hard when you're nervous. You know, when we're nervous, we speak and, like, a lot of words come out of our mouth. You have to learn how to zip it and wait. You have to let silence happen because you don't know what's going on in the other person's head. You're making decisions for them. Like, they're probably thinking it's too much Now I scared them off, now I'm going to lose this deal, blah blah blah. And they're just sitting there going so which account would I pay for this out of? You don't know what they're thinking. Don't make assumptions, just be silent and wait. Silence is an advanced selling skill that every single person is capable of adapting.

I love that. It's so true, so powerful. A couple questions that I also ask which kind of includes some of what you mentioned is how are you going about this decision? Can you tell me more about that? Because it's very open ended and many times the timing will come out who else they might be reaching out to might come out who's involved might come out. So I usually start with that and then I might ask some follow up questions based on timing, et cetera. Another one that I like to ask I'm curious if you do this and I usually do this in the pre qualification typically in the you know in a form yeah Is why did you reach out to me or why did you decide to reach out to me specifically because I want to know what caught their eye and that's just so powerful.

So this comes from my background in NLP so we'll see if you like this or not. NLP is one of the My favorite things I learned in there was to rarely use why questions and the reason I'm going to share it is why elicits story and sometimes blame so why can be a time suck for people because they need to tell you all the and the reason I'm going to share it is why elicit's story is and sometimes blame so why can be a time suck for people because they need to tell you all the feeds and speeds and details as to why this happened this way. So it's up to you if you're getting good answers keep asking that question. If you're getting information on your intake form feeds and speeds and details as to why this happened this way so it's up to you if you that fits for that like Ed, you know you're a master so I'm not telling you to change. If it's not getting you what you want ask it as a what question instead of a why question. So what prompted you to reach out? You're probably still get a lot of the same information but you might not get as much.

Yeah why feel so it's interesting you say that because I've learned not to ask too many why questions with coaching. Yes when I'm coaching somebody I stay Away from why questions. They can seem accusatory, challenging, and. But it's. I never thought about reframing that question with as a what. What made you reach out to me specifically? I want to know, not your need, but why me?

Yes. There's nothing wrong with that question. Yes.

Because I will use their answer. It's like, well, we love the fact that you had the sales background and they came from, you know, software industry and that specifically construction software. Man, that is gold. Because then I know there's not too many others. Right. When I was, you know, writing for clients, there are not too many others who can fit the criteria they just mentioned.

So you're the. Yeah, you're the person.

Everything else being equal.

Yes. I love that. I mean, you should know what prompted somebody to be in touch with you. I'll tell you the way that I a lot of times frame the question. I'm not saying it's better. I'm just saying this is my version is I'll say, how did we get connected? Because I like to imply we're now connected. So how did we get connected? And so then people will, you know, they will still want to share a little story like, oh, I'm a podcast listener. You know, my favorite is I heard you on Ed's podcast because I know you know this, but I love working with like, you attract the best people. I know I've said that to you many times now. But when your people reach out to me, I'm like, oh, good. I know this is a good person because they came from head.

That's awesome. I love that. I have a great audience. They're just fantastic. I love that question here. I'm taking notes. This is great. One of the things that you do. And then I want to kind of take a step back with pre framing. But at the end of the call, I think this is just absolutely magic. You schedule a circle back call. Tell us a little bit more about that.

So if at the end of the call we're not in a place for them to decide, they're ready to like pay me money or hire me. So sometimes it's because they need some time to think about it, or sometimes it's because I need to send them more formal proposal or whatever, I don't want you to end those calls without having your next step scheduled. So I schedule what I call circle back calls with people. So at the end of the call, if they say, I need to think about it, Nikki, or I want to look over the proposal or whatever their reason I would say, great, let's get a circle back call on our schedules now. That way we can answer any additional questions that come to mind for you and then we can talk about next steps for working together. And then I would suggest a date and a time and get it on their calendar. So I'm going to send them, like, we're going to agree, we're going to meet on Friday at 9:30. Because if you don't agree and you don't get it on their calendars now, you're going to start chasing. You're going to send a proposal. You're not sure when to call, you're going to call, you're going to get their voicemail, or maybe you're going to send them an email and they never respond. And now you feel like you're getting ghosted. If you have that circle back call scheduled on their calendar and on yours, one for you, you no longer have to worry about like, should I call them, should I email them? Should I wait two days? Did I wait enough time? Like all that mental energy that you're just frankly wasting, because now they're on your calendar so you don't have to think about it until it's that time. Now the other advantage to being on their calendar is they will see, oh my gosh, I have a call scheduled with Ed on Friday. So now I need to make sure I look at his proposal so they'll actually take some action. Or they'll get to Thursday and they'll look and see it's on my schedule on Friday. But I've decided to go in a different direction. So I'm just going to email him and cancel that appointment, which isn't great. Like, it's not like we want to lose the deals. But if you're like me, Ed, I don't want to get on calls for people to just say, yeah, I decided not to hire you. I'd rather they just cancel the appointment and say, we've decided to go in another direction so that I can use that time to business build.

There you go. So there's no downside, basically to asking for this. And it can dramatically reduce people ghosting you. The stress of trying to figure out, oh my gosh, what do I do? When do I follow up? What do I say? Yeah, I think it's brilliant. Circle, back call and the way you framed it, that's perfect. That's very low key. And I know we could do a whole episode on this last topic. But as we wrap up, since we've been really talking about framing. We've been talking about framing the conversation you have with yourself, framing the conversation you have with prospects. How can we pre frame so that when prospects do reach out to us, they're way more likely to hire us? And I like to say, look, when people reach out to me, I want them to be about 70% sold on hiring me, not 30% sold. So what can we do ahead of time proactively to get more people who reach out to us, be more on that side of the balance sheet, more likely to hire us, versus not knowing a thing?

Well, some of that is like making sure that you're putting content out into the market, that there's a way for people to consume it, that you are out there. So, you know, guesting on a podcast now, not just guesting on a podcast, but make sure that your message, the things that make you unique, the things that make you stand out are the things that you're talking about. You know, I could go on a lot, and I do guest on a lot of podcasts, and I can talk about a lot of things, but when somebody asked me to come on a podcast and talk about something other than sales, unless they're a good friend and I'm just doing it to support them, the answer is no. Because make sure that the message that you're putting out there is about what it is that you do. So that when people do show up, they already feel like. I mean, that's why I love podcasts, because most of the time, when people show up to have a, like a discovery call with me, and if they've heard me on a podcast, they already get, like, they get me. So they show up and they're like, gosh, you sound just like how you sound on a podcast. You do the things that you talked about on the podcast. You just pre frame this call for me, Nikki. Like, they repeat this stuff back to me because they already feel like they know me, right? When people show up to have a, like a discovery call with me, and if they've heard me on a podcast, they already get, like, they get me. So they show up and they're like, gosh, you sound just like how you sound on a podcast. You do the things that you talked about on the podcast. You just pre frame this call for me, Nikki. Like, they repeat this stuff back to me because they already feel like they know me. Right. So how are you putting yourself out there and letting people really kind of get a piece and be consistent, you know? Yeah. So how are you putting yourself out there and letting people really kind of get. I can talk about a lot of things, but 9 out of 10 times when I go on a podcast, I am talking about the Selling Star case, because that's my signature framework. So what is your thing? And be talking about it, be putting it out there. I'm not sure if that's where you wanted me to go with that, but that's what came to mind.

Yeah. No, it's. So it's really. I mean, whether it's a podcast, your guest blogging, or you're putting your own content out there in your blog, your website, you have a newsletter, you're posting on LinkedIn. What I'm hearing you say is, look, get your ideas out there.

Yes.

In different formats so that when people find you, they're going to check you out first. I don't care who you. Most people will check you out first. They're going to read your LinkedIn profile, they're going to go to your website. And the way I like to think of it, Nikki, is I want them to see how I think before they reach out.

Yeah.

Because if I can show them how I think, it's either going to resonate with them or it's not. And if they agree with my thinking and my thought process and the way I share ideas and present ideas, then that's a step in the right direction, you know, so. Because I. And if not, that's fine, too. I want my content to turn them off if it's not a good prospect.

Yeah. I am so about. I want to attract my ideal clients. And frankly, I want to repel, like, seriously repel people who are not a good fit for my business. So somebody who doesn't believe in the art of a sales conversation or somebody who doesn't believe in building rapport, somebody who just wants to, like, talk at people, you know, and is all about convincing people. I want them to be so turned off by my message. Like, frankly, I want them to hate the sound of my voice. Because I don't want to spend any time, anytime having conversations with people who are like, I can't stand you, or I don't like your message. Like, I don't need that in my mindset either. Right. So I want to repel people as fast as possible and attract. And so because I can repel people, and I do repel people. Not everybody agrees that you should have pricing on your website. These are things I talk about all the time. Not everybody believes that you should build rapport with people and that you should ask Permission to ask questions. And you know, some of these things are very off putting to people. Like I've had few people show up in my life and be like, Look, I have 30 leads and I just want to close them in the next day. Can you help me do that? My answer is no. You don't have any rapport with them. I don't need rapport. If you don't need rapport with clients, I am not your sales coach, like period, like so I will repel those people as fast as possible. I just don't want to have those conversations. And because I repel people, it leaves room in my schedule to attract and work with the ideal client.

Amen. I think we should not only say here's what I'm about and whom I can help and these are the things that I don't do and that I can't help you with. We're so afraid to talk about what we can't do or whom we cannot help. And I think that's a mistake. I think we, oh well, people will automatically understand if we talk about where I can help. But I mean they may not. I saw a writer the other day who flat out said if you're looking for this and if you want to work with someone with these qualities and this experience and background, we may have a fit. But if you're looking for X, Y or Z, that I'm not the person for you, I might be able to refer you to somebody. And I thought that was a very respectful way of showing it. For one of the things he mentioned was one off projects. If you have one writing project that you really need help with and that's pretty much it, that's not what I do. I partner with my clients. You know, I'm looking for long term relationships and I want to be able to help you beyond that. So that's the case. That's fine. You know, I respect that. But I'm not the person for you. So I think it's. We could all seems like do well in get clear with ourselves about whom we can best serve and whom we cannot and use that to help pre frame sales conversation on our website before people reach out to us.

Yeah, yeah. And I think this is in my copy somewhere. At least it used to be. It was like, look, if you're looking for a sales coach who's going to hold your feet to the fire and you know, like beat you into your accountability, like I am not your person. I don't think it said beat you, but it was like I Am not that coach for you. I am not the hard hitting type sales coach because it's about rapport for me. I think one of my clients described me once as a velvet hammer, which I thought was funny.

Gentle, but effective.

It's the gentle. It's the gentle. It's effective. My stuff works. But if I have to be the person that closes the deal for you, I'm also not the sales coach for you because I'm going to tell you how to do it. I'll show you how to do it. I'll answer all your questions. But you've got to implement. And I say this all the time. I say implementers get results. This is my thing. Because if you're just looking for somebody to do the work for you, like Nikki, can I just hire you to close this deal for me? No. Implementers get results. I am not the implementer. You are. You've got to implement. Period.

Well, on that note, I want to make sure that folks know how they can reach out to you, learn more about what you do, get your content and learn more about your coaching work when we send them.

Thank you. I'll wrap it around a gift for your audience, which is a ebook. It's called Closing the Sale. It's all about building your confidence in those sales conversations. You can get it by going to my website, your salesmaven.com ed. Cause then I'll know you came from Ed and I'll know you're a cool person because he attracts the best people. So yeah, that's how you get it. So your salesmaven.com ed closing the sale ebook. And then we'll be connected.

That's awesome. And guys, Nikki really does have amazing content. I love what you do, Nikki. And I've said this before, you and I are very well aligned in our philosophies around selling and what it's really about. And I've learned so much from you. You know, you always think, oh, well, I've figured all that stuff out. No, I'm always learning and I'm learning from you all the time. I got about eight notes here from just from today's conversation. So thank you for coming in today. I appreciate you.

Thank you for having me. I want to reciprocate and say I learned so much from you too. The episode you did a you were so gracious and came on my podcast and let me do a Mastering Excellence episode with you where I got to dig into your philosophy and kind of mindset around this idea of like, how do you work through challenges and create a plan. So people are loving that episode and you were so brilliant and you shared so candidly. So thank you for that.

Well, thank you. In fact, you reminded me. We'll make sure to put a link to that in the show notes as well, if anyone wants to check it out. I ended up talking about things that nobody's really asked me about before, which is a lot of fun because you get kind of tired of, you know, saying the same things. And yeah, so I know my audience will hear some things that they hadn't heard heard from me before, which, I don't know, might be fun.

It is. It's such a good. I will say I loved that conversation with you so much. And yeah, if you're a fan of Ed, and I am, you definitely want to listen to listen to that episode because you'll hear things from him that you'll be like, oh my gosh, this is why I adore you. This is why you're so good at what you do.

Well, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a quick reminder to grab your free copy of my latest book, earn more and less time the proven mindset, strategies and actions to prosper as a freelance writer. You can get your free copy@b2b launcher.com or you will also find the detailed show notes to this and all my other episodes. Enjoy and have a great day.