#314: ChatGPT

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With well over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries. All right, so by now you've probably heard of and even played around with ChatGPT. And boy has it, rightly so, by the way, created a stir in the writing community. If you haven't heard of it, you're not really sure what it is. Chat GPT is a natural language processing tool driven by AI technology that allows you to, among many other things, have human like conversations with a chatbot. And it was created by OpenAI, which is an AI and research company, the artificial intelligence. Chat GPT can answer all, all kinds of questions. That's what makes it kind of fun, at least right now. And it can do way beyond that. It can write emails, it can write essays, it can write computer code, screenplays, I mean, you name it. In fact, after playing with it for about 30 minutes, you'll notice that it just seems like there's little it can't do. There are certainly some limitations, but it's quite remarkable. I hadn't seen anything like it before now, as of this recording, and this is going to change very rapidly. ChatGPT is free to use, so millions of people have flocked to this tool to play around with it and test its capabilities. If you've done this, you already know how amazing it is. In fact, you've probably wondered how long it will be before this tool or some other similar AI will replace us as writers and copywriters. And that's a fair question. In fact, it's precisely what we're going to be discussing in today's episode. Joining me is my good friend, colleague and coaching client, Sarah Griesenbach. Sarah is the founder of the B2B Writing Institute, which trains and coaches individuals on the writing skills, the marketing strategies, and the project efficiency techniques that will help you build a stable, exciting career in B2B writing. And in this conversation, we dive right into the ChatGPT controversy. So Sarah brings in analysis and opinions from a wide range of industry experts on this issue, and we then share our own thoughts and our predictions for where this is all going, how it could hurt your business, how it could actually help you further, and what you need to do to prepare. This is a great discussion. I'm sure we're going to address this topic again a number of times, but I hope you enjoy it and get a lot out of it. Sarah, welcome back.

Hello. Thank you. I'm going to be happy to be here once I can confirm that you're not a robot.

I am not a robot. I am certainly not a robot.

I don't know. I have a question for you if you're okay. If anger was a rainbow, what color would it be?

Red is what comes to mind.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Okay. Because I can compare that to what chatgpt told me.

Okay. If you want me to read it, what was it? Sure.

It's difficult to say exactly what color would be associated with anger, as different people might associate different colors with the emotion. Some people might associate it with anger with red, and others might associate with other emotions such as passion or love. Ultimately, the colors of an anger rainbow would depend on the individual and their own personal associations with different colors.

That is a very diplomatic answer.

It's a very diplomatic answer and I think that really underpins my thoughts on all of this. And who needs to be worried and who doesn't? Because my main point is that AI is going to be a pattern and it's a pattern of language and it's not a creative like we are. So there's applications we can look forward to. But as far as having your core shaken and being horrified and terrified about what's coming, I just have good news for writers.

Well, that's good. And obviously we're diving right in, which I love. You know, this idea and this ChatGPT has really caused quite a stir among writers. And really everywhere I'm seeing, I hear that it's even solving or it's writing code, computer code, software code. So lots of different people are starting to use it, tinkering with it, and we're going to take a deep dive into, you know, what it is, how it could impact our work. And, you know, what we need to worry about and not worry about real quick is just kind of just a little bit of background. For those who don't know who you are, not familiar with you. Why don't you give us your. Your 60 second intro?

Happy to. So I've been a freelance writer in B2B for about 10 years, working with agencies and direct brands and publications. And about three years ago, I founded the BB Writing Institute to help other writers get into B2B and really make the most of it and make a stable career out of this.

Awesome. We'll make sure to include a link to your website. You got some great, awesome content there. And I love your newsletter. What I love about your newsletter is just so full of personality. It's funny and I love your sense of humor and it's useful. So great. Let's talk about. First of all, what in the world is this? ChatGPT. It seemed like it came out of nowhere and suddenly I'm hearing everyone talk about it.

Right. Well. And I think we should be a little suspicious about that, though. Maybe it says more about my mindset than not. But something to keep in mind is just that this is a product that has like a valuation and they're trying to sell it for millions and billions of dollars. So I think part of why we're hearing from it from every corner of the world is because it's interesting and useful, but also because it's the product, the company and people are trying to draw attention to it. So we're kind of doing the PR for this company that just released a.

New product, who created it and put it out there.

I believe the quote I got is that the bots human creators at parent company OpenAI, it's valued at $29 billion, which is double than that of two years ago and reportedly could go as high as 300 million.

Well, that's interesting. The. Yeah, yeah, wait a minute. 300 million? But it's 29 billion.

A similar deal valued the company at 14 billion. Okay, so maybe I should fact check those numbers.

Got it. I've heard the name. I don't know what else they do. This is their only product. Do you know?

I don't. I just know there's a lot of bigger companies like Microsoft who have been behind funding it and investing in it. So this is something that has been researched and built for several years and like decades. But what's different is that it's been released to the public, so anybody can really play with it.

Got it. And people have been playing with it like crazy because here we are giving it attention. So what else do you know about, you know, the background, the purpose of this and kind of like why it just kind of came out of the blue.

Yeah. So I asked Chat GPT what it is and what it does. He went to the source, tells us, yeah, it's a language model, a computer program that's designed to process and analyze language data. So I use machine learning's machine learning algorithms to understand and generate human, like, texts. My responses are based on patterns and information I've learned from the data I was trained on, which includes a wide range of texts such as books, articles and websites. So it positions itself as a tool and something that studies language and then repeats those patterns. And one of the cool metaphors for it is like just an autocomplete at scale. So it just auto completes and predicts what might come next in a conversation.

I like that. I like that analogy. Okay, so why are people freaking out about this? Can you, for those who haven't tried it, haven't played around with it, give us a sense as to why it's creating so much fear?

Yeah, I think because especially if you're intermediate or senior in writing, especially B2B and marketing, when you read it, it really does seem like just your first year in your career, you're just reading something that you could have written. So it is very human like and it's very easy and fast to generate like a 500 or 600 word blog post with different specifications like a tone or a topic and providing suggestions. So at first glance it could feel like this completely replaces the job that I've done in the past. And that can be pretty, pretty scary.

Yeah. The examples I've seen in what I've interacted, what it's come back to me with, I mean it's not A level, but it's B level writing.

In many cases I'd say C or like C minus. I think B is really generous.

Okay. B is in it. I've given it some pretty basic stuff. Right. So. And I was also looking at. Because one of the things that I noticed immediately is like, oh my gosh, this is going to wreak havoc at schools because. And that maybe that's where that's coming from, is a five paragraph essay, a couple of examples that I had to do for me on just random topics. Listen much better than what I've seen students create in most schools.

Very much so. Yeah. Both K through 12 and higher ed, I think are already seeing people use this.

Yeah. So when I say B level that, you know, I'm kind of thinking more from that standpoint than from, you know, the corporate B2B. Could I get away with, you know, charging decent fees for this and have the client happy with it? Yeah, yeah. So, all right, so it's bidding out, it's all language based. Can you have it right in a certain style or tone? So if you're going for more of a witty, punchier approach rather than a buttoned up approach, will it do that?

Yes, it will. Yeah. So not only that, but I Also, I don't want to take credit for somebody else's work, but someone had put together a sequence of requests. You could send it based on different copywriting templates or formulas. So it could create, like, a sales letter based on a particular way that you want to format it and stuff like that.

And what did you think of the output? The.

I thought it was interesting. I wonder if it'll show us how formulaic our writing has become, because what it delivers is pretty decent, but none of it felt real, I think. So I think one of the uses that I would suggest once we get to the practical takeaways, is kind of putting it through the paces of what your assignments are and seeing what comes up and then using that as a jumping off point to make it better.

Got it. Okay. Very interesting. I heard the other day. I just love the different ways people have been experimenting with it. Somebody wanted to write a hip hop song. I forget who did this. And what it spit out was actually pretty decent. I mean, considering that is a totally different form of language, you know, you have to get it right. I mean, I think it would. It did better than I would.

Yeah. I've seen the same with, like, a punk rock song or pop and stuff like that.

Yeah. Well, where could we go with this? I mean, I know you've been digging a lot into this, so where should we take this conversation?

Yeah, I think the first thing I wanted to talk about that was interesting is just how much this reveals about people's mindsets in general about business. Because I feel like we all have this gut response to it that's either really, really positive or really, really negative. And I think that says more about how we perceive threats to our business and our writing than anything the tool might actually do. Because it could take 10 or 15 years before this is an actually useful and disruptive thing that people use in the course of a business. But the amount of freaking out and concern and fear, as well as people jumping on the bandwagon and assuming this is the only way to do content from here on out, I think it just pushed people to extremes in a really interesting way.

Interesting. So what are you seeing? The reactions.

Mainly it inspires in me this desire to help people soothe their fear and just tell everyone to calm down a little bit. Because when technology comes out, I think this might be more something I heard from you, but we overestimate the impact of technology in the short term and we underestimate the impact in the long term. So I think we're doing a lot of overestimating what this means for 2023 because it is very basic content and it's very repetitive. So for the 20 articles about HR I might write in a year, the first two might be interesting from ChatGPT, but the rest of the 18 are just going to be the same thing, regurgitated and reorganized and reprocessed. So the actual impact to our business in the next year or two, I'm not sure is as big as we're making it out to be. But in the next 10 years, I think that that is something that's going to be much more significant.

I agree. I think one, when you said 10 to 15 years, I would argue that it's going to be faster than that because these things, once they take off, the exponential growth and improvement that occurs is staggering. And I don't think our brains can fully comprehend, you know, how quickly that can happen. So I would argue, you know, more like five to ten years possibly. But it's okay. I still don't think it should cause panic. So I'm not disagreeing. I'm talking about more of the timeline. But let's talk about. Okay, so if this is where things are heading as writers, you know, did I just choose the wrong career, the wrong business? Am I, is my business in danger, at risk?

Yeah. And I think businesses that write the kind of low level 101 style content, the Webster's Dictionary defines digital transformation as kind of content. I think those people are going to see more of an impact in the short term. So to me that just says the pressure to keep reading in your space and level up and actually build character as a writer and someone delivering marketing content like that's what the answer is and has always been. Really?

Yes. Got it. So kind of the really low level, you know, the how to, you know, whatever, how to build a fire, you know, in your fireplace, that, those kind, there's a ton of that out there. That is the first layer that's going to disappear those opportunities.

And I think I'm quoting someone, Annmarie Penny is just someone I came across on LinkedIn. But that idea that commodity products and services are easily replaced when systems improve. So that kind of content is going to become a commodity and it is easy to replace. So unless you are pushing the envelope on what you're doing and elevating yourself, that's coming for you.

Got it. Well, there's a ton of that out there. You know, let's get gain a little bit of perspective here. There's been an evolution anyway Right. So a lot of that content, just to kind of stick with that layer has been for years it was written by native English speakers, and then that started being outsourced offshore. Right. So people whose native language is not English started writing a lot of that content and there's a ton of it out there. And that's been happening now for a long, long time. We, everyone kind of freaked out at first, and then they realized, okay, well, you know, that's the bargain basement segment of the market. And now what you're seeing is, okay, well, even those people are going to be replaced, you know, at many of those layers by AI.

Yeah, yeah. And that I think speaks to. It's one thing to think about how this is going to impact us and our business, but it might be more helpful to think about your clients and how they might see it, because there are some marketers who it is a race to the bottom. They're always price shopping. They would always rather do it cheaper and faster. And so they will use it and they will hire less. And that. I'm stealing that from Joe Zappa on LinkedIn as well. But this idea that if you're good at creating uninspiring but competent content, that's the kind of stuff that Chat GPT is going to replace pretty quickly and marketers are going to really enjoy that and just really love being able to get it done cheaper and faster.

Yeah. In my mind, I think the more formulaic and left brain your work is, the more at risk you are. So, for instance, another area, transcripts. I remember when I started hiring transcriptionists to take all my client interviews and get them transcribed. And I mean, it wasn't expensive, but it also wasn't super cheap and it would be a human. And over the past five years, so many transcriptionists have been replaced by AI and it's pretty good. I mean, it might not be exactly what a good transcriptionist would do, and it's not, but it's pretty close. And the cost, you just can't even compare.

It's like minimum viable content.

Yeah, exactly. So I think any work, and this is just everywhere, period, over, you know, the years, anything that can be automated, anything that can be deconstructed in turn into kind of a formulaic process is at risk anyway.

Yeah, and I wonder. You're really making me make connections because a lot of my first content jobs when I first got laid off were taking podcasts and writing up a blog about whatever that interview was or whatever webinar was. And so the sense that that really could be replicated. I haven't gotten it to work myself because it always hits the word limit on ChatGPT. So it's not a one for one replacement right now. But to have missed out on that development time in my career, I wonder if I would have developed the skills that I needed to be successful. So I think that puts more pressure on seeking out professional development and not being able to learn on the job the way we might have used to be.

That's a good point. That's a good point. I keep thinking of many different professions where you really have to elevate your game. Engineers, for instance. A long time ago, my dad's an engineer and you know, back in the day he had to work out the problems, like the math problems, you know, and now it's all done via software. I mean, it has been for a long, long time. And really what engineers get paid to do. And he tells me this all the time. He told me this years ago, which is great because it's. Now you're really seeing it is it's about solving creative problems or solving difficult problems creatively. And if the system continues to crank out engineers who just focus on formulas, you're not really creating the next generation of engineers who can compete because it's really about taking complex challenges and figuring out creative solutions for them. That's a different level of thinking. Now we have tools that can help you do kind of that mundane work that my dad used to have to do and be really good at. He was judged by his ability to do that. Today he's judged by his ability and he's mostly retired. But his ability to take a very complex problem and come up with a simpler, more elegant, cheaper solution, and it often involves, I mean, it's so creative what he has to do. So I think it's one thing it's really driving or this will push for a different level of competence and skills in writers.

And just like you said across every industry though, because even painting and digital art, there are AI tools that are letting you create new art based on just using machine learning and stuff. But if that leads to a generation of artists that don't know how to paint or don't know those basics of going through it physically, you're creating a gap in people's ability to do things.

Got it. It's like you skipped a critical phase of the process.

Right. But that is horrifying because what if all of this is kind of a result of results oriented work environments where we focus so much on the outcome that now it truly is. No matter how fast you get there, as long as it's ethical, that outcome is the only thing that matters when really the process of how it's done does matter.

You know, that's a difficult question. I think it depends on the application, the situation. But I just keep thinking about really, how many of these fundamentals do we have to learn and master? You know, when things are moving in this direction, is it really about finding the right application and coming up with better, more creative approaches? Or is it really, do you really need to have the fundamental knowledge? You know, so for instance, do I need to know algebra? Because I mean, at the end of the day it's going to be software. When I get out, if I'm in school, I got to go through the stuff that I'll never use because software will do it for me. There's an argument to be made that, okay, yes, that's true, but the software might spit out something that if you know the fundamentals, you would know that the this doesn't sound right, this can't be right. Whereas if you don't know the fundamentals, you might just, you know, use that as the answer and be completely off. And I mean, I could just damage your career. The building could fall apart.

Right? Yeah. I'm thinking of a really funny TikTok meme that was people kind of escaping the country because the first building they built after they passed their digital only requirement and certifications collapses. You know, because this sense that we're learning everything in theory and like you said, we might not know the fundamentals to really know if we've done it correctly. There's no real world example to compare it to.

Totally. And this conversation is not meant to be about our educational system, but our, at least in the United States, our educational system is still set up to memorize. You know, it's rote exercises. It's. There's no context and they've been trying to move in that direction, but for the most part, I think our system is so broken. And kids, unless they have a wonderful teacher who can connect the dots for them and help them see the bigger picture in the context, or unless they do it themselves, they're just going to memorize. And it's all about getting the right answer and it's all about getting the A.

So directed by what other people think is important for them to learn. So in your example, like if we decide algebra isn't important anymore, no one's going to have the chance to learn it.

Exactly. Or maybe it's an option, you know, the people who actually find it fun. But let's come back to this. I know we've talked about some of the dangers, some of the risks, some of the real concerns before we move into, maybe some of the opportunities this is creating. Anything else that you've thought about or some of the things you keep hearing from people that are freaking them out about this technology?

Yeah, I'm thinking, and I kind of hinted at it in the intro as far as mindset's concerned, but I think this is going to really play up people's insecurities about creativity and meaning and even the purpose of their lives and their careers. Because it seems like the more people I talk to, everyone kind of has this hesitancy and insecurity that they can't be exceptional or that they can't be better than an AI bot and stuff like that. And I think that's going to hold them back from actually beating the bots out for those jobs in that content.

Interesting. I can see that. I can see that. What about kind of related to that? I'm just curious, do you know, I know it's been fed all this language, but is it using existing copyrighted language out there or is it really doing what a human would do and just kind of pull from multiple sources and create original work?

It's pulling only from the sources that it's been loaded with. So right now it's in training mode and I don't know what those sources are, but it's like a limited body of knowledge and it's not looking for new information or the world wide web or anything like that.

Okay, got it. I can definitely see the mindset issue and I'm seeing it big time right now with people freaking out. Yeah, go ahead.

Just the immediate hopelessness people feel when a new technology comes out and it's like immediately, oh no. Everything I've invested in and everything I want for my career just isn't possible for me because I'm not talented enough to overcome the machine. And I think that's what I want people to not feel. If I could control how they react to this is just that there is no way for a machine to replace what humans do. And especially since good marketing builds trust and creates connection and talks to very specific pain points, there are things the AI tool can help us do, but it's not going to replace what we do because those things are so complex and complicated.

Well, I know it sounds like here we are. Maybe this feels so self serving to people Listening. Well, of course, you know, you guys train people and you know how to write better, B2B content and copy and how to build a business. But we've seen example after example of similar situations where all it did is really change what your emphasis should be in terms of training, in terms of improving yourself, your profession, your business. You know, we just talked about engineers, artists, you know, as transcriptionists. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. Musicians, right. It is new technology comes into the picture. It's really about figuring out, okay, how can I leverage that? I guess that's one option to help me then focus on what I do best and, or how do I pivot so that I'm always competitive. So the example of the engineer, because I think that's one everyone can agree on, is okay, it's no longer about my math and science chops. It's about having the basics down the fundamentals, but then moving to a higher level of thinking where it's now way more right brain. The book that always comes to mind when I'm hearing these conversations is Dan Pink's A Whole New Mind, which came out, I think it was like 2005, 2006, so this is a long time ago. And he predicted it was like five or six criteria, the types of jobs that will never go away. And one of the big categories was right brain thinking, you know, where you really need to provide much more than just, you know, kind of the formulaic output. It really requires consciousness. I guess maybe it's a metaphysical way of talking about it where AI still, I mean, there's an argument about this, but AI is still definitely not conscious. Right?

Yeah, yeah. And it's the music example that comes to mind. It just, it's who you are as a person and what you can help other people do is ultimately what you're going to get paid for. And AI bought. Taylor Swift could use the AI bot and create a song and make a bestseller out of that. But a random person or a bot can't take a chart topping Taylor Swift hit and make that a chart topping hit. Like it's about who that person is and what they're doing with the content. Yeah, that example went better in my head.

No, no, no, I'm with you. It's. There's so much that went into creating that brand that anybody off the street, even with the same airtime, would not be able to get the same results because it required something that took years to create as a platform. I mean, I think that's what I took from what you said, absolutely.

I think this is coming to me so much because most of my work is in thought leadership and there's this focus on if I could just put enough content out there, maybe I'll get the attention and the trust and the leads that I'm looking for. When in reality it is who you are as a person and how you show up online that makes those things happen. And so AI man. That's a quote from so Gary Marcus, who's a pioneer in AI. It's an amazing technology and valuable and useful, but it's not trustworthy and it's not reliable and you can't sell things to people and you can't connect to people if you don't have trust and it's not stable. So I just don't think the function of swap out a writer for an AI bot. I just don't think that's an equation that is going to exist because of how it all works.

Well, I would agree we're on the same page. I think the bargain basement level of the market is going to be the one really impacted. Right. So the really just kind of blah content that's just, it's fodder. So this is another thing I love to think of kind of the value pyramid in any industry. But let's talk about B2B writing or just really copywriting writing, any creative endeavor. There's that the bottom of the pyramid is the bargain basement level. And that's exactly what it sounds like. And this, that's the one that's going to be impacted big time. Even then, I would argue there's some elements that are, you know, maybe, maybe not. They might be immune to it, but for the most part those are the people. So if you're competing at that level, that's. You're going to have a tough go. Then the next level above from that would be more of a. It's price sensitive, but it requires a little bit more than that, maybe considerably more. I think that level of the market is going to be relatively safe, at least for a while. Above that I like to call the next one the trusted advisor. And I know we're going to talk more about that. And that's when you become much more than a writer. You're bringing ideas to the table, you're helping your clients solve other problems. You're not in order taking mode. And then there is, at the very top of the pyramid is what I call the rock star level. And very few people get to that. And I would argue that that shouldn't be the goal. If your goal is to be the. That's like saying, you know, I'm entering the music business and I want to be up there with Taylor Swift. I don't think that's a very healthy goal. You know, that happens so rarely. I think the goal is to get to the trusted advisor level.

Yeah. Manifestation would be a different podcast topic.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Write that down on your bulletin board every day.

Exactly. Could we talk a little bit about. Okay, great. That makes sense. Ed. You know, as I move up the pyramid, it's a smaller market. Right. But I see how, I guess, like, with a great flood, you want to be on higher ground because it's that lower ground that's going to get flooded and you're going to be in a lot of trouble. So if we can all agree that that's probably going to happen or pretty much will happen, how do we move up that value chain or that value pyramid just to kind of continue with a metaphor?

Yeah. Well, I want to have a caveat that SEO is not a specialty of mine. So I imagine there could be some exceptions for SEO and product descriptions and stuff where this does become how the job gets done, because that is such a structured way of doing writing. So to me, it's more like you said, how do you become that rock star or that thought partner who helps people think and then communicates those ideas? And that is what gets people attention instead of just having something new out on the blog. And I took that a little from Melissa Greenfield, who wrote about that, just how this is going to widen the divide between people who post to get notice and just turn out content, and then people who truly lead with their ideas and everything they're sharing. So for a writer, I think that means getting really familiar with business concepts and marketing and how it all works so that you know how to advise someone or how to know when an idea they share is actually revolutionary or interesting or controversial. If you don't have that awareness, then you're just guessing as much as that client might be. So you're not serving a purpose. There's a.

That's a really good point. I find that a lot of writers shy away. I went to business school, so to me, I love business and studying business and reading about business, to me, it's a very natural thing. But I don't think that was an innate ability. I think I'd just been immersed in it for a long time. And a lot of writers freak out. It's like, I don't know anything about Business. I didn't go to business school and I've just been a journalist or I've been this or I've been that. But it's not that hard. I think it's my recommendation. I'd love to hear your thoughts, Sarah, is just immerse yourself in that literature. Like read articles in business publications, the Wall Street Journal, Forbes and so forth about different businesses and what they're doing to compete and the different strategic moves are making and why and which ones worked, which ones didn't. I totally geek out on that stuff because that to me is a very difficult creative challenge. So I love the creativity that goes into, you know, okay, we're in a very, very difficult cat on that stuff because that to me is a very difficult creative challenge. So I love the creativity that goes into, you know, okay, we're in a very, very difficult industry with all these obstacles in front of us right now and all this competition, how do we get out of this? How do we stand out? And it's a very, very difficult job. So to hear it or to read about it is fascinating. Another one that I haven't done this in years, but you can do a Google search is the different case studies that business schools use about different companies and the way they turn things around or the mistakes they made. Sometimes it's not the positive, it's the negative stuff. I always love to rate those. When I was in school, you could look them up, do a Google search for, you know, business case study, you know, and just punch in an industry and you'll start seeing a bunch of them and they're not terribly long, but you can see, you know, what challenges they were facing, the leadership, why they decided to try X strategy or the set of strategies and then what the results were. And sometimes it's failure, like Kmart for instance, or it could be Walmart, which made the right moves and why things worked and why some things didn't work. It's just fascinating. You really get a solid business education just from reading articles and case studies a hundred percent.

And I like, no one should be charging hourly, but I think that's the difference between $50 an hour and 250 an hour is understanding how content and expressing ideas plays into that whole mess. And it's something that it's not hard, it's just mysterious and it's been gated and people have grown up gating themselves from it, just assuming they don't have business savvy or could never understand how these things work. So I think that's Why I keep coming back to the person and mindset stuff because at some point you have to let yourself become a business person and read that stuff and see if it does resonate instead of just assuming it's too complicated and you're just there to do the art and the Oxford comma of it. I think those need to merge to really do this.

Well, couldn't agree more. And I don't want to scare people off. Listen, the stuff you're going to read about, you're probably not going to get involved in that with your clients. It's not about that.

You won't understand half of it.

Yeah, exactly. Just, it's okay. Just keep. And you know that you'll be able to connect the dots pretty quickly. Like you will have enough context that you can get it. You will get it. But it's not about, oh, now you need to help your clients with business and growth strategy. No, no, you're probably never going to do that. But that's going to give you the foundational context to help them with some content ideas, content strategy, et cetera. So you need to start really big picture so you understand the landscape of business and then you can kind of drill down and get into the more, you know, marketing related, tactical stuff. I think most people don't even have any of that to begin with. So they don't know what they're walking into. And then they shy away from adding more value to client engagements because, like, I'm just a writer. Heck, that's a mindset. Do you see that a lot? It's like, oh, I'm just a writer.

Yeah. Most of the people I'm working with now really struggle to identify as a writer. So that's kind of the first hurdle is I have all this other professional experience. How could I possibly tell people I'm a writer? So I'm more looking at transferable skills there. But once they are a writer, there's a hesitancy to step out of your lane and step into somebody else's lane. But I don't think people realize how much. Especially in B2B, our clients are desperate to have someone step into their lane. It's like they're in a car accident on racetrack and they want you to come into their lane and help them make sense of it and get content out. That actually helps with marketing and actually expresses their company's mission and stuff. So it's more permission to interrupt, permission to take the lead with a client confidence that you're going to lead them in the right Direction, because you understand them so much. And when you're talking about case studies that it's just like 101 customer research. You're getting to know what's important to your customers and what they're trying to accomplish. Every moment of that makes you more valuable.

Absolutely. You know, the other one I didn't mention is, you know, business books. Problem with business books. There's so many of them, you know, it's like, where do you even start? That's where. I wanted to give you something a little bit more tangible, but that one stuck.

My cheese.

Yes, exactly. All right, so tell me a little bit more then about what clients are really looking for. You and I are very much on the same page about how you can become the obvious choice for clients. We talked about kind of writing chops, the mindset piece. What about this, you know, order taking mindset that a lot of writers get into? Like, how do we shift away from that? Is that something we should start shifting away from?

Yeah, I think at first, your first couple clients, it's going to be natural that you want to show up and help. And so helpers take orders, and then helpers deliver on that, and then they get more work, and suddenly you have this really consistent source of very, very low income. So it feels good, but it also feels bad, like it's not going to last for very long. So I think it's more when you're transitioning away from just being delighted to make money to actually building career money and actually having a writing business. That's when you start to look around for, how can I get ahead of the order that's coming to me? How can I be a part of the decisions being made for what my assignments are each month? And that comes into content strategy and why people are doing what they're doing and how you can recommend that. So it seems like almost the recycling chart. It's just very content strategy, content fulfillment, content strategy, content fulfillment and getting involved in that process.

I think every good writer has an opportunity there, and most of them are not taking advantage of it. I have people tell me all the time, hey, somebody wants a prospect, wants me to. They want to write a book or they want to write a series of white papers. What should I say? It's like, well, okay, first of all, is this work that you do? Yes or no? Yeah, yeah, okay. The second thing is train yourself to not just go by what they're saying. Ask better, more Socratic questions and better understand what they're trying to accomplish. So don't say, okay, yeah, whatever. Let's go into what you're trying to accomplish. No, acknowledge what they're saying, but then go higher level. It's like, tell me more about that. What is it about a book? What would you hope to accomplish with that? And nine times out of ten, what you'll find is they haven't really either thought this through or their thinking is not as solid as it just should be. So you coming in as someone who can offer some ideas and maybe help them move in a better direction, that is extremely valuable. That is something that ChatGPT cannot replicate.

Yeah. Because if you type into ChatGPT like, should I write a white paper or make a case study? Right now, there's just so many pieces of that decision making that can't come from another data source. Like, that comes from intention and mission and goals, things that don't exist yet. And all ChatGPT can do is rearrange things that do exist, like tangible facts and things and even making up facts, actually. But it can't take us to a new place is where I'm going with that. And I, like, just started the new year with that conversation with two different clients, where we come in and it's like, there's an opening for a white paper. We just need to do it. Let's just write something. What are some ideas you have? And it started over at the beginning with a whole content strategy conversation. Because you can't make the Most of that $2,000 you're spending on a white paper if it's not taking you somewhere that doesn't exist yet, if it's not actually contributing to your content and your purpose as a business.

I love that. So it's about pivoting that conversation. Great. That sounds great. Why don't we have a deeper conversation so I can better understand what you're trying to accomplish and so we can kind of get on the same page and make sure we come up with some smart solutions here, rather than make sure, okay, well, how many words and how many pages and when do you need it? Right. I think it's a. We need to get used to asking better questions and getting a seat at the decision table rather than, you know, oh, I'm just a writer. I'm just taking instructions.

Yeah. And some people go in that direction and just do the strategy and stop doing the content. But I've found that just makes my content more valuable to me, because when you've been a part of why we're pursuing these topics and why we're Interviewing these people, it becomes such a given that you would be the person writing the really expensive white paper. At the end of it, it just. You become indispensable in a way that you might not realize that you are.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I want everyone to understand that, again, you have the capability to do this. I think most writers, they have it, but they don't use it. It's a mindset thing and it's a confidence thing, but you have it. And what I see, Sarah, I don't know if you're seeing the same thing, is when you do use it, your confidence is not there where you're asking to get paid for it. So you give it away. You give away your ideas, the brainstorming session, the content strategy help. And that's okay. That's kind of the first step in the evolution, just to prove to yourself, hey, I know my stuff, and I got this feedback from the client, and they are just amazed at what we came up with.

Yeah.

Yes. But you should use that as a signal that, hey, there's value here. I shouldn't be giving this away. This is kind of its own thing, and there's tremendous value. I would argue that it's even more valuable than the content many times, because if you don't get that piece right, the content could be ineffective.

Will be. It would be a lottery for it to be effective if you're just throwing ideas out there.

Exactly, exactly.

And I kind of want to go wide with it and say, I really see. Maybe it's just because I work with women so much more, but I see some gender things at play here, and I see some introvert things at play here where we undervalue those soft skills of communicating and partnering and even loving and just supporting our clients, and we shy away from that as being valuable at all. But the coolest thing in the world happens when you start to talk strategy and you start to actually think of your customers or your clients as real people who you care about and are helping those bonds form, like such a trust and expertise thing that it. I don't know. I'm just thinking of many scenarios with clients this year where they almost couldn't imagine doing content without me. And I don't know that I'm that special. I just think that bringing more caring and more consideration, more of those soft skills to it has created a bond that's irreplaceable, not necessarily a person that's irreplaceable.

I couldn't agree more. So you would. I put that into the category of being great to work with. Not from a customer service standpoint, of course, there's that as well, but from being someone that if you weren't around tomorrow, they would really miss you. And that skill that I don't think a lot of writers focus on, but being great to work with. Super important.

Or I think. And again, I'm probably biased based on the kind of people I love to work with, but the trauma we've all gone through and the toxic workplaces we've gone through, many of us don't think we're capable of being missed. Like, we just feel dumb. It sounds so simple, but. And I feel this way too. When I first started, it's like, who am I to contribute to this or to be valuable or to tell someone else what to do with their business? And there's just room for a lot more people than we think.

I'll even take it a step further, Sarah. I would say that I've seen this many times, and I even saw it in my own career, if many, many times. Even your ex employer, who maybe let you go or didn't see you as indispensable, suddenly as now that you're a contractor, sees you as so valuable. Isn't that crazy? I've seen this many times before.

Yeah. One of the best days of my life was after I got laid off. Both of the people who were my bosses reached out afterwards to try to work together. Together. The content areas were different, so it wasn't a good fit, but it just felt so satisfying to have people who were in that employer position see you in a completely new way and then want to work with you again.

So true. So we talked about a few things in terms of, again, the overarching theme today. How can you escape the wrath of the AI? You know, in terms of writing, we talked about a bunch of different things, such as becoming more of a trusted advisor or partner, not an order taker. Being great to work with, bringing ideas to the table. So elevating yourself and recognizing that you bring strategy, other kinds of help that go beyond the writing. We didn't really. We talked a little bit about writing quality. You know, just improving your writing chops, staying on top of that. You know, look, it's interesting that every other profession really emphasizes that and people don't even question it. My wife's a nurse. You know, continuing education. Continuing education is a huge part of pretty much any profession, and in here, we take it for granted.

Yeah, you're either born with it or you're not.

Yeah, no you have to keep growing and then staying on top of trends. We talked about, you know, just understanding business in general and some practical ways you could do that. But then what about trends in B2B writing and copywriting? Right. That's very important in content marketing.

And that becomes part of the advising you're giving your clients. Because even with when we think of how people addressed the pandemic and wrote about the pandemic in white papers and blogs, what was fresh and new and invigorating in 2020 is now dated and jargony and kind of embarrassing. So when you can be the person advising your client on that and steering them away from things that are bad ideas, that comes from your mastery of writing in the B2B marketing space, not just having good skills and being complimented on writing in the past.

Great point, Great point. So, Sarah, as we wrap up, was there anything we didn't address? Any final thoughts on your end?

Yeah, I think embracing your own potential becomes the ultimate way to outsmart anything a bot could do to your career or the clients you're working with. Because if you are, I forget if I can cuss, if you are half budding your work right now, then that could be replaced by a robot. But if you are leaning in and reading good examples and following people on LinkedIn and elevating what you're doing, you're going to continue to be exceptional and outsmart anything that's coming from true tech.

Amen. It's a great way to wrap it up. I love it. So tell us again, where can listeners learn more about the institute?

Yeah, LinkedIn gets very spicy if you just look me up at Sarah, Grease and black. And then b2b writinginstitute.com is where you're going to find the email and some free resources to help people get good at this.

Awesome. Great, Sarah. Thank you for coming on again. I recommend that Everybody check out B2B Writing Institute. I mean, in fact, it hits on one of the things we talked about. Stay on top of trends in content marketing in B2B copywriting. And Sarah, I know you always geek out on that and you love talking about it and sharing with the world, so.

Yeah, thank you. Check it out and I'll prepare your certificate to confirm that you're not a robot. You've passed the test.

Exactly. I am not a robot. Well, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a quick reminder to grab your free copy of my latest book, Burn More in less time. The proven mindset strategies and actions to prosper as a freelance writer. You can get your free copy@b2b launcher.com where you will also find the detailed show notes to this and all my other episodes. Enjoy and have a great day.