#330: Big Takeaways from The Content Byte Summit, with Jennifer Goforth Gregory

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With well over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries. Last month I had the pleasure and honor to keynote the Content Bite Summit in Sydney, Australia along with my friend and colleague Jennifer Goforth Gregory. So I keynoted on the first day, Jennifer keynoted on the second day. It was a fantastic conference. Truly top notch, high quality, excellent speakers, outstanding topics. And we just knew, Jennifer and I by the end of the first day that we had to record a joint podcast episode to share our biggest takeaways from all the information packed sessions. She came up to me, said, oh my gosh, we have to capture this somehow. We really have to do this. And I said, you read my mind, let's do it. We even set a date there and we just met. And in this episode, Jennifer and I are going to do just that. We're going to discuss some of the many highlights from the conference. We get into lots of different things. The importance of defining your ideal client, why charging for your insights and ideas is so critical today, and some thoughts on how you could do that, how you can get started, new perspectives on AI and its role in our work as writers and marketers, why you must get clear on your business non negotiables, the importance of asking clients and prospects, tough questions and just much, much more. It was a lot of fun to compare notes with Jennifer, see what resonated most with each of us. And I'll say this, we had very little overlap, which is surprising and actually kind of cool because then we got to cover a lot of ground. In this episode, I think you're going to walk with some useful ideas and perspectives from the conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Make sure by the way, to check out Jennifer's blog, the content marketing writer and in the show notes, I've placed a link to an episode from the Deliberate Freelancer podcast with Melanie Padgett Powers, who also did a recap of the conference. She was a virtual attendee and I thought she did a fantastic job of summarizing some of the key points. So I hope you enjoy it. Jennifer, great to be here with you. We meet again.

We meet again. We're both on U.S. soil, both on U.S. oil.

So a little bit of background for anyone who's wondering what we're talking about. Jennifer and I have known each other for a long time online. Right. Maybe eight years or so. And we finally met. We had to travel all the way to Sydney, Australia, to meet in real life. So I. I'll meet you in Germany next time. You know, we'll see. Even though we live like five, six hours away from each other. Drive time.

Correct.

So.

And I know I've been in Atlanta a few times in the time. I just, you know, it's funny. So it's great to meet you in real life and your son and hear your talk and get to see you in action.

Yeah. So we just came back from the Content Bite Summit in Sydney, which was absolutely fantastic. We had a blast. Not just because all the sightseeing we got to do, but because the content was superb. The content, the people, the networking in. Jennifer and I talked over there about doing a recap, a bit of a summary of what we learned, some of the highlights of the conference. Many of you weren't able to attend either live or virtually. So we wanted to just kind of tell you a little bit about what we found really useful. And this is really hard, wasn't it? You know, we can't do like four hours of this. I think we could if we wanted to, but we were trying to kind of limit it to the things that maybe we had an hour to talk about we would focus on.

Correct. And if they offer it again, I recommend anyone that's in the area to go and anyone who can't go to do Virtual ticket. I've attended a lot of writing conferences and this was by far the best in terms of content and in terms of just the friendliness. Everyone really got along and was very open and I made so many great new contacts and friends. It was just a absolute fabulous experience. Lynn and Rachel, I cannot say enough about how hard they worked and how welcome they made both Ed and I feel and really gave us the setup to be successful. So if you haven't listened or don't listen to their podcast content bite, it's. You should add it to your playlist.

Yeah. They're fantastic, wonderful people. So hospitable. And you should know, like, they're not even know we're recording this podcast. So this is not like part of the deal. Like, you know, we have to do post event publicity, nothing like that. I haven't even told them. We just felt compelled. I mean, at like, halfway through day one, I think we said, oh, my Gosh, we gotta do a recap of this thing. So. Yeah, I agree. I think if they do this again, people should seriously consider doing a, you know, a virtual ticket if you're in the US and can't make it to Sydney. So quick thing about Australia, because this is my first time there. I know this is like number four for you because you're, you know, a world travel, you're an international woman of mystery, but this is my first time there and I gotta tell you, I absolutely loved Australia. I think the country is, well, I mean, I only got to see Sydney and then the Blue Mountains west of Sydney, but amazing, wonderful. Such nice, hospitable people. Seriously, some of the nicest people I've ever met. And a beautiful city, beautiful country, clean. Clean.

Yep.

Right. Safe, diverse.

I was walking out by myself at night, I didn't even think about it and I was like, maybe I should do this. My husband's like, it's Sydney, it's fine.

Yeah, I know we're used to, you know, Chicago, New York, L.A. it's like, no, you can't be out there in the middle of the night. So I can't wait to go back. People, people ask me, I told them I would go next week. Seriously.

I agree. I think Australia is worth every hour and every mile of travel. It's a long way, but it's worth it. We went to Tasmania for a week after and if you ever get a chance to go to Tasmania, I highly recommend it. It was probably the most beautiful place I've ever been and the people were even friendlier, if that's possible.

Wow. Yeah. My son had an amazing time. I took my 20 year old and he didn't want to come home. So it's going to be hard to top this trip. We take a trip every year typically and that's going to be very difficult. But yeah. So let's get into some of the highlights and why don't we start with you, Jen. Tell us what was one of the things that really stood out for you?

So the first one, I'm going to start with your keynote, Ed, because it was really amazing and it really shifted my mindset. So Ed gave a lot of information about how to improve your value as a freelance writer. And one of the things that really stood out to me was that you recommended not calling strategy strategy. You had two reasons. One was as writers and I do this myself, I thought that I wasn't really qualified to do much strategy because I don't have a degree, I don't have experience. And you said that also when clients, when writers do present it to clients, they often get shut down when they call it strategy. So one of the things that you suggested was to, in our conversations that we already have with writer, with our clients, to look for ways that we can add value, such as brainstorming, creating ideas, creating roadmaps, and then creating a content strategy and a plan. And that really resonated with me. I also thought of you listed other ideas, which is a content audit and a white paper plan. And what you recommended was looking for these opportunities and then offering as an extra service with an additional fee to provide that to clients. So say as you're talking about, what do they already have and they're saying they don't know, offer, say, well, I offer a package for a content audit that is, you know, x hundred dollars, x thousand dollars, depending on the scope. And would love to talk to you about that. I just really thought that was brilliant and that's something that I'm going to do because as you said, I've been giving away too much for free and was scared to offer it because of the word strategies. So thank you for that.

Yeah, no, absolutely. That really resonated with people because in the Q and A session, that's where most of the questions were coming, were coming from. And I think what really resonated specifically with the audience was, hey, the biggest opportunity for these engagements, strategy engagements come from conversations you're already having with clients and prospects. Right. So it's not like you pitching something which would make me nervous. Hey, let me tell you about this thing I have. Instead, they're contacting you for whatever, you know, white paper, a web copy, a landing page, an email campaign, whatever it might be. You start, you do three things. First of all, you ask more and better quality questions. Because we're so used to just asking project spec questions. So of course he's still going to have to ask those. But you dig a little bit deeper as to the why, what they're looking to accomplish and so forth. And then you listen critically to what they're saying because you're looking for gaps. You know, do they have this figured out or not? Where do they not have this fully fleshed out? And then the third part is the pivot. And the pivot is a very gentle. You know, here's what I heard. Is this correct? Great. I think the best way I could serve you is if we started with a, you know, content audit. Because what I'm hearing is this, that, and the other does that resonate with you, you know?

Yeah. And then I thought that was. Made a lot of sense.

See how they respond, right. And you're not presenting it as a. And then you say, you know, is it okay if I tell you a little bit about it or can I send you something on it? And that's. You're asking for confirmation and for permission and that's much better than now you go into full pitch mode, you know, or what a lot of people do is, is it okay? You know, is it okay if we did this? No, no, no. It's like, I think the best way we could do it start is this way so you. A little bit more confidence. Can I tell you a little bit about it or can I send you something about it?

I think it's perfect and I think it's really relevant right now because I know I've been looking for ways that I can't replace. And all the advice, including one I've given myself, was strategy, offer strategy. And that felt scary. And this helps me do what I know I need to do to expand the services of my business while being successful.

Yeah. Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm glad that resonated with you. So, not that, you know, I'm trying to like return the favor, but I'm going to start with your stuff because this is so good. You know, you talked about getting really clear on who your ideal client is, is. And then you hit home the point of having your non negotiables, that's what I call it in your policies, getting really clear on those and have them written down. And I love how the color you brought into the examples of like, look, I only work with clients who do and say these certain things, you know, like for instance, if they throw a curse word out there in our first conversation, that is huge thumbs up for me. You know, you just notice the pattern. You're good, you're very observational and you backtrack and figure out, why did this client work out? Why didn't this one work out? And then you said, look, I don't work with clients who are a holes period. You know, and many times I think we're like, well, I don't like them, but I'll still work with them. And you're really, really clear on that. This idea of taking time to think about who's a good fit and who isn't, based on past history and connecting dots, is so important. I think too many of us say, well, I need the work or who am I to judge or what if they're not really that. So we don't trust your instinct, you know. Oh no, no, that's just, that's nothing. Let me ignore that and proceed because we're looking at the dollar signs and then almost always when we don't trust our intuition, it's a mistake. So I really appreciated that from you.

And that's from me messing up so many times. And I'm very sensitive and all of those bad interactions really take a toll on me. And that's why I've gone back and really refined my ideal client. And one of the things, just to add a little bit that I see writers do so much is when it doesn't work out, they either think they're a bad writer and need a new career or they blame the editor. I see that. I saw it in a recently on a posted my Facebook page. You know, it's the editor's fault. No, it's not. But it's also not the writer's fault. It's not a match. And so when you blame yourself or that the editor is not good at their job, you miss the opportunity to learn how to better pick your clients. And I really think that our success is defined by the clients we turn down.

That's so powerful. Right? That's not how we think of it, but that is so true. I love the fact that you emphasize that everyone is going to be different in terms of the clients and the projects they take on and it should all be aligned with your values and your situation in life. And because you brought up a great point like when you describe the kind of projects and clients you take on a lot of last minute stuff. On the surface, that sounds like a nightmare to me. But that's because I'm in a different place in my business and in life. And so you take a lot of last minute stuff because you don't want to plan out four or five weeks out, you've got your dog rescue. Right. First of all, your kids are out of the house, they're in college now and you have all these other things and you want to be able to not plan out too far so that your schedule is flexible.

Right. So I can do what I want to do. If I plan out my workbook out too far, I don't know what else I'm going to want to do.

Your hands are tied at that point.

Yeah. The other reason, and I don't know if I mentioned, is I'm a huge procrastinator and so if I have long deadlines, I'm going to like waste my time and wait to the end. But if I've got three days, I'm going to get it done in three days. Got a low deadline, then I make more money. And you make a really good point. That and I used to think I was weird and I was doing it wrong. But you have to have the confidence to do what works for you. And I often feel like the odd one out in the freelance community especially there'll be posts on Facebook pages and I'll be like, yeah, I'm the only one that does it a different way. And that's okay. That's more than okay. That's what we have to have the confidence to do it our way. And that's where we really see the success. Even if it's a, a nightmare to you. I was causing myself so much stress by trying to do it the conventional way.

But this is why it's so important to understand what an ideal business is for you as an individual. Because honestly, this is, this is really key. If you don't know that, you don't know what advice to take on from me, from you, from other people. You know what I'm saying? It's almost like. So I read about this recently, about investment, investment strategies. There's no one investment strategy that's best because it really depends on you, your values, your goals, your place in life, right where, your stage of life. And you know something in my work for my friend who does day trading will not work for me. I don't have the time, the patience, the energy to do that. But, and he is not interested in my strategy because that's not where he is. He's 10 years older and like you can't, there's no such thing as just basic advice for everybody that fits every single business. So if you know what, what you stand for, what your values are, your non negotiables and what you want to get out of your business, that to me is the killer app. If you know that, then you know what to take and what to ignore.

You're so right because I used to take this. Keep your work and personal separate, have set office hours, create a project plan for your work. And it wasn't. I used to try to take that advice and that doesn't work. I have to not ignore that advice. But no, that's not for me. But other advice, which is such as time tracking is really important for someone that runs a business like myself because I need to know my internal hourly rate, I need to know my productivity and it's Much harder because the way I run my business. And so by knowing my ideal business, how I'm going to do it, I can then take that type of advice to heart.

Love it, Love it. So, great, great.

So what's your next point?

All right, so there was a lot of conversation about leveraging AI as a tool. And which is wonderful that we're having that conversation now because I think a lot of the. We're kind of at the, I think a little bit past the peak of the hype cycle. You know, we're not quite where we were a couple of months ago, so we're able to have better conversations about it. And there were a few sessions that were super practical. So first, a comment from Ross Page who said AI isn't reliable or replacement for a human writer. I said that one agency she worked with said it's just mansplaining as a service, which I thought was brilliant. So I had to throw that out there because that's one of the better lines about AI from the conference. And then Carrie Sackville talked about ChatGPT as an idea thesaurus and creativity tool. And that to me is the ideation, you know, is a huge benefit of these tools. I am seeing a lot of people get really hung up on this than just calling people who use it for that, you know, a bunch of sellouts because, hey, now you're not going to think for yourself. I don't take that limited view of it. You know, these are tools. So that's the same thing as saying that spreadsheets and calculators are going to make us math dummies. I mean, I think that's too good of an example or comparison there.

I agree with you so much because that's how I use it. I use it. And you wouldn't call mind mapping software is a sellout or brainstorming software. It's something you use to spark your own creativity. I use it as I would use a colleague. If I'm coming up with headlines or ideas, I brainstorm off of it. And I don't think I've ever taken something verbatim it's given me from any idea. I use it to add my own creativity. It was really eye opening to me to hear it called a creativity tool because that's what I've been using that and have struggled to figure out how to name it.

I think, Jennifer, it's almost like if you had a good friend who was this wise old man or woman that you came to kind of like Neo in the Matrix, you know, he went to that lady, whatever her name was, you know, just for kind of advice and guidance and.

Karate Kid.

Yes. You know, and you got an idea from that conversation every time, and then you use that. Are you a sellout? No, I think you're smart. You know, you still have to be creative in order to know what's truly creative and what's going to work. So I don't think this is going to make us like, right. Brain lazy. So it is what it is, more creative.

It makes me more creative because it makes me trained not to take my first idea, not to take the first thing, but then take it to the next level. And when I'm doing it by myself, I don't. I'll often settle for my first idea. And I've realized that I need to keep going. And that's really helped me tremendously. Yeah, and I think that you mentioned it's smart. I think successful people use the resources that are available to them in the way that works for them. And that's what this is. It's a resource that available. And I do think that those of us that use it, learn how to use it to help take our own expertise to the next level, will eventually stand out from those that don't. Because we're using a resource that's available.

Absolutely. I threw a line out there in my presentation that I'm not sure how it landed with people, but I said, look, AI is not going to replace you, but a writer who's very strategic and is using AI for ideation, synthesis, connecting dots and so forth will probably replace you because they're going to be so much more efficient. And I think the ideas they're going to come up with are going to be better, stronger, and more of them. So that was my whole point. Again, you know, are you better doing math, you know, by hand, or better with spreadsheets and a calculator, Are you going to be more efficient? So Susan Riock had. Did a whole presentation on how to use AI in these tools, and it was very practical. And she threw some great stuff out there. She said, the biggest place I see people going wrong using AI is giving it only one or two sentences and expecting it to produce a whole web page or landing page, et cetera. I think that's where that was. Phase one of using these tools is like, I'm going to ask it a question and I'm going to expect magic. And what we're finding is that, no, you have to be better, you have to learn, and you've done A whole course on this, Jennifer. Right. It's like you got to know how to coax the right information out of these tools. Don't give up too easily. So one idea she said, is if you try one thing on AI, try this. So ask it to explain this to me as If I were 10, 10 years old, you know, and it's so good at giving you those kinds of answers. So idea and information synthesis, summary. One thing I learned from you, Jennifer, was, hey, you're not really sure if the logic in this article or piece is right. Let me throw it out there and say, look, here's what I've got. I need you to give me an outline of this because it's easier to look at the outline and see kind of the logical fallacies in an outline than it is in a draft. Right. So things like that are really powerful.

And hashtags.

Hashtags. Yeah, totally. I know you.

I'm in love with the hashtag. It might have changed my perspective on social media. Those were some great points. Did you have anything else you want to add or do you want me to go on to mine?

So I'm going to do one more on Susan. She said, use AI as an honest critic. It can give you objective point of view and constructive feedback. Use it to check for logic gaps, which you just talked about. Grammar, of course, consistency with tone or voice. If you write for different clients, that's really powerful.

I hadn't thought about that one.

Yeah. So I tried this the other day. I fed it four or five different articles of mine, and I told her, here's what I'm going to have you do. Okay? And then I said, now I want you to write a style guide. Tell me what you see in common among all of these articles. Because I wanted to create something that if I wanted to train someone to write for me, you know, they would be able to do that. So I gave it each of these articles and it was able to give me a style guide for each one. And then I said, all right, now combine them all. I want a style guide for basically what you've been seeing, you know, across these four or five articles. It's really good at that.

That's a really good use I had. That's not something I had thought of till you mentioned it.

It wasn't my idea. I forget where I found it.

Still a good one. So my next point is related to yours. So back in January earlier this year, a lot of people, present company excluded, was saying that, you know, freelancing was dead we were going to lose our jobs. And both you and I were pretty adamant that that wasn't going to happen and that those that were not doing very low level content mill type work really had nothing to worry, had nothing to worry about if we embraced the tools. And there was a fear that I had seen in the freelance community earlier this year that I had never seen before. It was very disconcerting. And at the conference, I had such a different feeling. I walked away knowing that you and I were right that AI is not taking our jobs and it's transforming our industry, but it's not putting us out of work, which are two very different things. And I felt people, other writers and the speakers were curious about the possibilities and how to talk to their clients and how to use it, not fearful. And it was really a relief to know that we predicted correctly and that other writers were now feeling more confidence. One of the quotes that I had taken from Rosalind Page, she had said that people had claimed they had lost work from agencies due to AI. But she surveyed some of her agencies that she knows and works with and 90% said that they had not changed the number of human writers. And that really stuck with me. And it's so easy to hear and stick with the one story, anecdotal story, of one writer that lost their job to it, which, yes, they're out there and think that's the truth in the main way we're going. But it's not.

It's not. Yeah. You know, keep in mind that a lot of people have financial incentives to craft headlines and content that gets clicks and eyeballs. I think we saw a lot of that because this is a dream come true for them. And I'm not saying that all of that was, you know, garbage and clickbait, but there was a lot of that and it got people really freaked out.

Or did their job. Well, if that was their job, they did a really good job.

They totally did. You know, I think what we're going to end up seeing. This reminds me, I've talked about this ad nauseam, but it was like the whole E Commerce. What was it like? E Commerce versus bricks and mortar. You know, like the argument that now that when Amazon was really growing rapidly in the early 2000s, oh, that's the end of brick and mortar. We're not going to have brick and mortar. And look at it today. What we have is really a hybrid model.

Yep.

You know, so I think that's where we're going to end up. What exactly that looks like. Who Knows at the same time I say, look, I find that a lot of writers are still being like really, really defensive and you know, oh, well, yeah, but chat GPT can't do X or, you know, bard can't do Y. I would still be cautious because you can't judge it based on what you're seeing today. This is only going to keep getting better. Having said that, I'm still very optimistic about the limits of these tools. So, yeah, it's kind of a balance. Right? All right. So I wanted to shift gears a little bit and to a theme that Lindy Alexander and some others were really kind of hitting on, which is the idea of being mustering a little bit more courage to talk more about money and to think about money in your business. And you know, one of the things she talked about, which is Lindy said, look, knowing your internal hourly rate is so important because you don't have to have that mental anguish every time along the lines of, ugh, I don't know what to charge or, you know, what they're offering me. Is that going to be enough? If you know what your average internal hourly rate is and your goals for that, it's a measure, you're not going to quote that, you're not going to reveal that. But it's a decision making tool and she was really big on that and I thought that was really powerful because I don't think a lot of writers know what their average internal hourly rate is.

I was so glad to hear her say it because I've been saying that for years and I believe it so strongly because so many people think that, you know, if they have a project that's $50 a word, that they're making a lot of money. But some of my lowest paying projects have been in that range where some of my highest paying have been in the 50, 60 you7 cents a word because it's how long it takes you and what's involved. So I think that knowing your hourly rate is the only way to make accurate business decisions based on money.

Absolutely. She also talked about, again, this is the recurring theme here was courage, talking about money. In every first call with a, with a prospect. Right. And every discovery call, she said, look, can I get a sense of your budget? My question that I've memorized because I'm a big proponent of however you're going to ask it, memorize it and ask that way every time because you're going to be nervous and if you're nervous, you don't want to make it up. So mine is, you know, what kind of budget are you working with? So, you know, hers was a little different, but it's still the same thing. Whatever you feel comfortable with, you got to ask that. I recommend you ask it toward the end because you need to build what I call value context first. And then you talk money. But oh my gosh, I would say that 75% of writers leave a discovery call without having talked about money. And then you're going to spend all this time thinking through the project, putting a proposal together, only to find that you're miles apart. Big mistake.

And I take a little different approach. I do it in the email before I'll even get on a call. And I just get a range because I agree with you that, you know, you want to leave the fine tuning to the end. But if they only want to pay a hundred dollars for, you know, a thousand word post, I'm never going to get them to a thousand dollars no matter how much of a value I add or I bring. We're just too far apart. So. And I've had that happen a few times and I'm not good at negotiations. So I've unfortunately taken some things I shouldn't because I now like them and they're my friend and I want to have a beer with them and so I can't tell them no. So I do that email partly because I am braver behind a keyboard.

And I think that's fine. I think it's fair. Because you're in that email, you're still talking kind of range.

Yep. I say ballpark. I say I want to make sure we're in the same ballpark. So want to get a range for your budget so that we make sure we make the best use of each other's time.

I think that's smart. I think that's smart. So you're still not talking specifics. Another way to do it, which is kind of the approach I took, was having copy and messaging on my website and my social media profiles that made it very clear that I'm not going to be the cheapest, you know, and I know that sounds odd, but, you know, there comes a point, many of us reach a point where, you know, if you don't do that, you're going to have to field a lot of inquiries that are not going to be a fit. I would rather risk turning somebody off with some of that language than waste a lot of time with inquiries that are not a fit.

I do the same thing in a different way. I put, I get very Little. You're too expensive. It only happens occasionally because if you look at my website, my LinkedIn, you in my past clients and current clients are IBM, Microsoft, Google and Adobe. I'm not going to be cheap. And so it's very obvious I position myself that way and that helps. It's the same concept as making yourself look expensive.

Yeah, yeah. So this person's not going to write, you know, $50 articles, essentially.

And I have people, but like when we start talking budget, they're like, I know that you're, you charge upper range rates because of your client base. And I'm like, correct. So that works. If they're paying attention and not everybody does, they will know that.

One last thing I wanted to mention about Lindy, because we're on the topic of courage, is that she was a big proponent on following up like crazy with your prospecting emails or Lois. And I think somebody asked her, well, how many times do you follow up? And she didn't have a number. She said indefinitely.

Me too.

Which, you know, I'm not sure if I agree with you indefinitely, but I think her point was taken, which is don't, you know, first, first of all, most people don't follow up. And if they do, they might follow up once. It's like, man, the money is in the follow up. And I'm a huge proponent of that. And I'm glad that she said that.

I say I follow up until they hire me or tell me to go away.

I love it. I love it.

Yeah, I agree. And I often tell people, if you're not going to follow up, you shouldn't bother to send it out.

That's a great point. Yeah. What are the chances that they have something right now? Because that's what you're looking for.

It's timing.

It's the intersection.

Yeah. It's all about timing. And when you follow up, it's because people often say, I don't want to follow up. If they wanted to hire me, they would have the first one, but they didn't have a need. And so when you follow up, three weeks later, their favorite freelancer may have just left or they got a new project and they clients go with who's top of their mind, top of their inbox. And when you follow up, you increase the chances of hitting the luck of the timing.

Amen. Amen. All right, so what was the next one for you, Jennifer?

So I'm going to riff off what you said about the negotiations. The money mine was about Jack Taylor said that it's worth Thinking about what a project is worth to them, not what it's worth to you. And that really resonated with me because I've been pretty honest that I'm not a good negotiator and I easily fall back into the trap of thinking about hours, thinking about time and we really need to think about volume. I do a lot of high value work for clients, case studies, white papers and I need to remember to think that they can be getting you know, huge $100,000 sales off of the work that I'm doing. And so it's not the hours, it's the value. That's something that I need to continually remind myself of. And Michelle Bose said a great quote that I really liked as well. The good reminder about money isn't a dirty work. It's completely fine to talk about it. We're not running charities and your clients know this, this is a business. They know we have to earn a living. They are not. They're used to paying for services in their own life, in their professional life and they get paid themselves. So it's okay to talk about it, it's okay to say no. It's a business and that's really hard for me. And something I have to continually remember and I think for not to gender stereotype but a lot of women I talk with have that struggle and it's something that they have to work on and it's. And I've seen a lot of studies where men will ask more than women and we have to remember to always. I try to always negotiate, ask for more. The worst they're going to say is no. And asking for $50 more an article, a couple dollars more work an hour if you're going out really adds up over a five year project. The other thing that I had never thought of that I'm going to do was let's see who said it. Sally Wright said to put clever clauses into your contract. I'm not good about asking for money and something I have to remind myself and work on. So she says to put it in your contract. So saying every year my, my rate will be reviewed and renewed annually and be increased by x percent. So it's already there. You don't have to have the conversation, you've already had it. To me that is brilliant and I think any other negotiation challenged freelancers should this comes up for money and something I have to remind myself and work on. So she says to put it in your contract. So saying every year my, my rate will be reviewed and renewed annually and be increased by X percent. So it's already there. You don't have to have the conversation. You've already had it. To me, that is brilliant. And I think any other negotiation challenged freelancers should. This comes up to a point. Let's talk about a little put in systems that work and putting it in your contract. You just remind them of the contract.

That's actually common practice in some industries. So. Oh yeah, yeah, price increase and built into a clause in the contract. But I'd never thought about using it here. So I agree with you. I thought that was brilliant. This is another reason to look, we are in business and I'm kind of a business geek. We should be reading business books, business strategy books, listening to podcasts about business strategy and marketing strategy, because some of the best ideas I've ever had that have worked really, really well in my business have come from other industries. And I just felt, well, that kind of works there. And some of them didn't work well when I implemented them, but many of them do. So sometimes it's not good to do exactly what your colleagues are doing because that's the way that it's always been done. And who's to say that that's always the best way? Sometimes you have to bring in ideas from other sources.

That's a really great point. So many writers think of ourselves as writers and we stay in the writer industry, we go to writer conferences, we read writer stuff, which is great. I mean, you and I do that. And we need to also think of ourselves as business people and gain that knowledge and look outside. I also want to point out something that Lyndy said, and it's not to toot ears in my horn, it's to help remind everybody of the value of, of sharing your story. So Lindy has gone on to influence, help a lot of other writers with her work, especially in Australia. And I might cry here, but she publicly said at the conference that the reason she started sharing her story was from a podcast episode that Ed and I did in 2016. And so because where. And it was about where I lost all my clients and found more work and made it six figures. And because I had the courage to be vulnerable and try to help other people, it in turn, and Ed had, you know, shared the story, it inspired even more people because it inspired Lindy to do the same. And to me, that was very powerful about being vulnerable and putting our story out and talking about money because we know the impact it's going to have. That was eight years ago or seven.

Seven Years ago. Isn't that crazy? So, yeah, it starts with you having the courage to put it out in your blog. I read and I said, this is brilliant. I didn't know you. I approach you and say, hey, I don't know, you know, but I'm wondering if you're even interested or would even consider it coming on the show. And he said, oh, my God, I would love to. Yeah, I know about you. And you came on and we had this great conversation. And look, it inspired many people, including Lindy, who's gone on to then take her business to a whole new level and now help multiple people do the same. So I think to me, it's like, you don't have to have a show. This is really more about you sharing, like you said, your story, a little bit of advice with your colleagues, things that have worked for you, and then listen to them as well. Because we didn't say this, but one of the biggest values of a conference like this is the conversations that happen at dinner, during drinks, in the hallways, during breaks. That's where the real magic. Sharing, like you said, your story, a little bit of advice with your colleagues, things that have worked for you, and then listen to them as well, because we didn't say this, but one of the biggest values of a conference like this is the conversations that happen at dinner. It happens. We're talking about the stuff we heard in conference room, in theater, but it's the magical stuff. A lot of it happen outside and.

The friendships that I know I've gained, I've already been connected with people online, and that will go on to help me with my business. And. And so you're right. That is completely it. And I want to point out something you said. Want to riff on it? You know, you don't have to have. Lindy started a blog, which is a fabulous blog, Freelancers Year. If you don't follow it, but you can share it in a Facebook group, you can share your story in a Facebook group, you can share your story on your LinkedIn page. There's so many different. You can go to a conference and talk to other people about it so many ways. You can do it in a small way that still influences and inspires other people. We have to not be scared to talk about our success, and we have to also not be scared to talk about the things that we've done wrong.

Amen. Amen. All right, so I'm going to go to another point here that stood out for me. And this is from Anna Featherstone, who said, so she helps people write a book, and she's got a lot of stuff on book writing. And she was encouraging people who have ideas to think about creating a book, writing a book. She said, when you create a book, you create content for articles, for podcasts. You become an expert yourself, and you also have to write the first book to become better at writing the second, third, and fourth. So, so much in there. But a couple of points that I wanted to emphasize is I tell people this all the time, which is interesting, that they don't believe me because they're writers. I tell writers, look, the more you write about your ideas, your perspective, et cetera, the more ideas you get, the clear your thinking, the better you will be at articulating some of these things to your clients and prospects. So, for instance, I mentioned earlier how you have to ask better questions and think more critically about what clients and prospects are saying to you. And you need to pivot that conversation. If you see a gap where you think you can help them with quote, unquote strategy, the way you're going to get better at that is not just by practicing, but it's also by getting really clear on your ideas, you know, and you get clear on your ideas by writing them. So whether it's a book or a blog, a podcast, I like the idea of a book because a book has. There's a formality to it getting really clear on your ideas, you know, and you get clear on your ideas by writing them. So whether it's a book, a blog, a podcast, I like the idea of a book because a book has. There's a formality to it. In a certain discipline you have to develop to get all these ideas together in a cohesive way. And a certain discipline you have to develop to get all these ideas together in a cohesive way. But yeah, I thought that was brilliant. And as scary as it sounds, I mean, look, we're writers. I know it's harder to write your own stuff, but I think it's something worth considering. And one thing it will do, because this kickstarted my whole coaching and courses business, is it gives you an unfair advantage when you've written the book. Suddenly, even today in the world of self publishing, you're still seen as the expert. You know, Jennifer, you wrote your book, but yeah, I thought that was brilliant. In as scary as it sounds, I mean, look, we're writing a book and people are still. How many years ago was that?

It was five. I need to update it. We're bad about doing our own stuff, but, yeah, it still sells a couple copies of readers.

I know it's harder to write your own stuff, but I think it's something worth considering. And one thing it will do because this kickstarted my whole coaching and courses business every day.

And it was a self published book five years ago. But I use it with clients. When people ask about my experience, I will mention it and they're like, oh wow, you must know what you're doing. If you wrote a book that people.

Read, it gives you an unfair advantage. You're seen as the expert. You're now more attractive for. Right. For guesting on podcasts and getting asked to speak at a conference. Right Is it gives you an unfair advantage when you've written the book.

You're right. That would never would have happened. And I also think I've been no secret that I wrote my book Cooking and Screaming and I didn't want to do it and because I didn't feel that I had enough expertise to share and because I'd made so many mistakes and I think that that's actually the reason why it's been successful and well received is because I was willing.

Suddenly even today in the world of self publishing, you're still seen as the expert. You know, Jennifer, you wrote your book and people are still. How many years ago was that?

It was five to be human. And so you don't have to be the world's most experienced person on a topic. I need to update it. We're bad about doing our own stuff, but yeah, it's still sells a couple copies that you don't have to be the world's leading expertise. You just have to be willing to share it in a way that resonates with people.

The biggest value I think is going to be putting yourself through the process and getting it done then how many copies it sells or whatever. And by the way, a book doesn't have to be 300 pages. It could be a hundred page book which you self publish on Amazon. That's good enough. You can still tell people I'm a.

Book author every day and it was a self published published book five years ago. But I use it with clients.

Like I wrote a book, it's on Amazon. That's still impressive. And again, that's going to help you more than anything else. So cool. Yeah. All right. So Jennifer, anything else on your end? I know you had a couple other ideas.

Yes, Ed, I think that Raquel Collard's comment about looking for ways to automate your process really stuck out for me. That's something I don't do very well. In fact I do it terribly. People ask about my experience, I will mention it and they're like oh, why? And it, it really stuck with me. It was from email marketing, workflow, automation, social. You must know what you're doing. If you wrote a book that people.

Read, it gives you an unfair advantage. You're seen as the expert you're now more attractive for. Right.

For guesting on media scheduling. I do do that review automation. I realized that I'm not even using calendly to challenge my schedule to schedule appointments. And it's really something I need to do as well with maybe even integrate something within my website so clients can book a meeting with me directly online. And it's not something that I had stayed away from because I wanted podcasts.

And getting asked to speak at a conference. Right.

You're right. That would never would have happened. And I also think I've been no secret that I wrote my book kicking and screaming and I didn't want to do it and because I didn't feel that I had enough expertise to share and because I'd made so many mistakes. And I think that that's actually the personal touch. But I realized that that's the way business is done and it will help me save time and possibly even get more prospects. So that's an area. It's on my list of things that I need to look at how to do, which is ways to add more automated processes to my business.

Simple things. And we have such amazing tools these days.

The reason why it's been successful and well received is because I was willing to be human. And so you don't have to be the world's most experienced person on a topic. You don't have to be the world's leading expertise. You just have to be willing to to share it in a way that resonates with people.

The biggest value I think is going to be putting yourself through the process and getting it done then how many copies it sells or whatever. And by the way, a book doesn't have to be 300 pages be a hundred page book, you know, for that, that it's. I've seen people go overboard with it. So the book which you self publish on Amazon, that's good enough. You could still tell people I'm a book author, you know, you can take it too far. But I agree if you have very little to nothing, there's some really nice quick wins, low hanging fruit calendar.

I'm not in danger of that. All I do is I use it. I use automation for my marketing for my blog and my newsletter.

I wrote a book. It's on Amazon that's still impressive. And again, that's going to help you more than anything else. So cool. Yeah. All right. So Jennifer, anything else on your end? I know you had a couple other ideas about.

Yes, Ed, I think that Rocko Collard's comment about looking for ways to automate your other than that and that's because someone else that I paid that knows how to do it is an expert set it up for me. So I need to look into that. Which is funny because I write about tech and how to use these tools. The cobblers. Cobblers. Kids have no shoes. Right. So that's a big one for me. A process really stuck out for me. That's something I don't do very well. In fact, I do it terribly. Ed, did you have. What was your next point?

Well, why don't we wrap it up.

And it, it really stuck with me. It was from email marketing, workflow automation, social media scheduling. I do do that review automation. I realized that I'm not even using calendly to calendar my schedule to schedule appointments. And it's really something I need to do as well with maybe even integrate something within my website so clients can.

Book a meeting up with one that I know you and I really believed in and resonated with both of us, which was the idea of investing in yourself. You know, especially Valerie Koo talked about micro credentials. So you can you speak to that.

And then I'll add some with me directly online. And it's not something that I had stayed away from because I wanted the personal touch. But I realized that that's the way business is done and it will help me save time and possibly even get more prospect. So that's an area. It's on my list of things.

Thoughts?

Yes. I was really excited. She talked about how there's a lot that I need to look at how to do, which is ways to add more automated processes to my business.

Simple things. And we have such amazing tools these days, you know, for that that it's. I've seen people go overboard with it. So you know, you can take it too far. But I agree if you have very little to nothing, there's some really out.

Of three courses, short wins, long wins, certifications online now that can help us. And it really opened my eyes into different ways that I can help, you know, satisfy my curiosities and make myself more marketable. And she pointed out that you should do it because you're interested in it, not to make her be nice.

Quick wins, low hanging fruit.

I'm not in danger of that. All I do is I use it. I use automation for my marketing for my blog and my newsletter. But other than that I. And that's because someone else that I paid that knows how to do it is an expert set it up for me. So I need to look into that. Which is funny because I write about tech and how to use these tools, the cobblers more marketable and usually those go hand in hand when you do something that you're interested in. It does make yourself more marketable when you do it for the right reasons. One of the things that she pointed out that I had overlooked was topics that you write about. So looking for classes. College kids have no shoes. Right. So that's a big one for me on cyber security would be something that I've looked into. There's some great ed. Did you have, what was your next point?

Well, why don't we wrap it up with one that I know you and I really believed in and resonated with both of us, which was the idea of investing in yourself. You know, especially Valerie Koo talked about micro credentials. So can you speak to that? And then I'll add some and I.

Don'T need to get into depth but I found like an overview class on LinkedIn learning that looks perfect for me. It's 45 minutes. I think it'll really help and if you want to go deeper, there's even, you know, intro to CyberSecurity certification on LinkedIn that I could get.

Thoughts?

Yes, I was really excited. She talked about how there's a lot of free courses, short wins, long wins, certifications online now that can help us and it really opened my eyes into different ways. I also, I've been, I used to be a UX designer in my past life and have been wanting to go in ways that I can help, you know, satisfy my curiosities and to UX writing but wasn't quite sure how to quantify that experience since it's make myself more marketable. And she pointed out that you should do it because you're interested in it, not to make yourself, you know, 20 years old to now. And I found free Google certification on UX design that would like to pursue at some point more marketable. And usually those go hand in hand when you do something that you're interested in, it does make yourself more marketable when you do it for the right reasons. One of the things that she pointed out that. So a lot of times I hear writers say they need a degree, they need to go. That I had overlooked was topics that you write about. So looking for classes on cybersecurity would be something that I've looked into. There's some great. And I don't need to get into the depths, but I found like an overview class on LinkedIn learning that looks perfect for me. It's 45 minutes. I think it'll really help. And if you want to go back to school, they need to do it on a big scale. And Valerie really stressed that micro learnings can really have a big impact.

I love that term, micro credentials.

Yes.

Because that's exactly what we need. It's kind of deeper.

There's even, you know, Intro to CyberSecurity certification on LinkedIn that I could get.

Very pointed, surgically focused topics.

And I, I also, I've been, I used to be a UX designer in my past life and have been wanting to go into UX writing, but wasn't quite sure how to quantify that experience since it's, you know, 20 years old to now. And I found free Google search ideas.

And I'm with you a hundred percent. You know, I remember I started doing.

A lot of certification on UX design that I would like to pursue at.

Some point, work for software companies that go after manufacturing companies. And I had to learn a lot about lean and agile.

So a lot of times I heard writers say they need a degree, they need to go back to school, they need to do it on a big scale. And Valerie really stressed that.

So we had a production system. And this is like before you had a lot of these free courses online. But if they.

Micro learnings can really have a big impact.

I love that term, micro credentials.

Yes.

Because that's exactly what we need. It's kind of very pointed, surgically focused topics and ideas. And I'm with you a hundred percent. You know, I remember I started doing a lot of. There were a ton of YouTube videos and then I read a couple of books and it was fascinating. I mean, I did it at first because I kind of needed the background, but just kind of, you know, creating your own curriculum if you wanted to, which is what I did on some of these work for software companies that go after manufacturing, you know, esoteric topics, cybersecurity, like you mentioned, I mean, that could go a long way companies. And I had to learn a lot about lean and agile and the Toyota production system. And this is like before you had a lot of These free courses online. But there were a ton of YouTube videos and then I read a couple of books and it was fascinating. So it's not just about the writing. It's not just about building and growing a better business. It could be topics related to your target market. That would make you the obvious training. I mean, I did it at first because I kind of needed the background, but just kind of choice, which is really what I tell people they need to do, is you need to present yourself as the obvious choice. You know, creating your own curriculum if you wanted to, which is what I did on some of these, you know, esoteric topics. Cybersecurity, like you mentioned, I mean, that could go a long way. You're the geek, you know, the person who's really geeked out on their industry or they. So it's not just about the writing and it's not just about building and growing a better business. It could be topics related to your target market that would make you the obvious industries are targeting and that just sets you apart. I think in this world, choice, which is really what I tell people they need to do, is you need to present yourself as the obvious choice. What clients really want are not writers with better chops. I think what they're looking for is writers who are already good, who really get them their industry and the industry. You're the geek, you know, the person who's really geeked out on their industry or the industries are targeting and that just sets you apart. I think in this world, these are targeting.

I think you're a million percent right on that. Have you looked at LinkedIn?

What clients really want are not writers with better chops. I think what they're looking for is writers who are already good, who really get them their industry and the industries they're targeting.

I think you're a million percent right on that. Have you looked at LinkedIn learning? There's so much out there for free. There's like free certifications, learning, there's so much out there for free. There's like free certifications that will go on your LinkedIn site. Like you can get a digital marketing one, you can get an SEO one and they're interesting. There's videos by professors and they have little quiz. It's easy, something you can do and that will go on your LinkedIn site. Like you can get a digital marketing one, you can get an SEO one. And most of the ones I saw were short. You know, they're like 15 minute modules so you can fit it in. You know, they're Interesting. There's videos by professors and they have little quizzes. It's easy, something you can do. And most of the ones I saw were short. You know, they're like 15 minute modules so you can fit it in, you know, make. I was starting to do one last year and you know, got sidetracked. But for a couple weeks I watched one video every day and need to get back in that habit. It was a very positive habit. So. But it's free and they, most of them have great content and also look impressive because they can go on your LinkedIn.

Yeah, well. And I think the problem is that there's so many. It's like, where do I even start? I'll say this, we encourage this at the same time, don't use this as a reason to procrastinate on your marketing, for example.

And that's a good way. If you set up that you do 115 minutes a day or a couple times a week or set a goal.

It's like, hey, as you're setting I believe in quarterly goals. As you're setting your quarterly goals now for Q4 or wherever is I'm going to take two classes right in the some very specific topics, you know, or get a certification on UX copywriting or whatever it might be. But set it as a goal once you have it as a goal. Okay, well, I know what I need to complete. So what would that look like in terms of my schedule rather than just kind of going in? Because I know a lot of listeners to the show love to learn like I do, but you got to balance things out.

It's a very, very good point. This has been so much fun talking about the conference and and I also if you did not attend and want to hear more. Melanie Powers Padgett did a great recap she did on her deliberate freelancer. Highly recommend that she brought up some different points. We made sure we had some different ones. There's a few overlaps. And the content by Summit did their own recap. And also if you go to Twitter now X and look at the hashtag Rachel, who is one of the organizers did a fabulous job of live tweeted all of the quotes.

Yeah. And the way to find those, the best way that I found it was the hashtag the content bitesummit.

So that's one of the ways through it and get a lot of from the conference. I highly recommend doing that because different things will stick out to you than stuck out to us because Ed and I both were at the same conference and came up with different takeaways for the most part.

Absolutely. Well, this has been fun, Jennifer.

Thank you.

Always great talking to you. Yeah. It was so awesome to meet you in person.

Yes. And thank you for having me on the show.

Oh my gosh. You can come here anytime. You just tell me and if I don't hear from you, I'm going to. Definitely. No, I'm gonna find you. So thanks. Thanks for your insights. I appreciate it. And I hope everybody got something at least one or two golden nuggets out of this.

Yes, I do too. And I hope that everyone listening also does the next step, which I often overlook, which is go back and take it to your business and put it into action.

Well said. Take care, Jennifer. Well, that's it for for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a quick reminder to grab your free copy of my latest book, Earn More in Less time. The Proven mindset, strategies and actions to prosper as a freelance writer. You can get your free copy@b2b launcher.com or you will also find the details shown us to this and all my other episodes. Enjoy and have a great, great day.