#331: Marketing Strategies of a Digital Nomad Ghostwriter Earning $750 per Hour

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia.

Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients, with well over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries. So the real strength of your own positioning, messaging and marketing is when the economy is challenging, not when clients are flush with cash and enjoying overinflated marketing budgets as they were over the past.

Three years or so.

And that's why it's so important to continually improve your own marketing skills and habits. And that's why the topic of marketing your business is going to be a recurring theme in this podcast and in my newsletter for the next few months. Because frankly, the past few years have made us soft. It was too easy to land work, which is great, you know, we all want that. But when the work comes too easily, our marketing falters and we lose the habit, we lose the skills, we lose the inner strength to deal with more difficult times. And it just gets harder. It's a lot harder to get back into the game. So my guest in this week's episode is Amy Suto. Amy is a freelance memoir ghostwriter and Amazon KDP publishing expert. What I find impressive about Amy's business is that over the course of a few short years, she's been able to go from earning $30 an hour as a freelance writer to to earning a whopping $750 an hour as a book ghostwriter. Not only that, but she's continually book solid at that rate. And she does this while spending a big part of the year traveling and working from beautiful locations all around the world. It almost sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? Well, as you'll see in this episode, Amy will explain where she started her journey to where she is today, how she got here, to this current level of success, what she does to continually attract her ideal clients, and how she can command these ultra high end rates. In fact, even how she deals with objections, and how she explains her value to prospective clients. And I'll give you a quick hint. Narrowing down your focus is a big part of the secret here. Narrowing down your target market, your value proposition, your positioning. We talk a lot of strategy in this conversation, but we also get very tactical. This is a great conversation for any writer to listen to, regardless of where you might be in your freelance journey.

Hope you enjoy it. Amy, welcome. Great to be talking with you today.

Thanks so much for having me, Ed. I'm excited to be here.

I'm excited to talk about this stuff because I know you're really passionate about some of the things we're going to be talking about here today. And, you know, I feel like we've entered an age where things are just going to be more difficult than what freelancers think they should be. I feel like the past three years or so have been really easy, and suddenly things got hard. It seemed like overnight. Right. And I don't believe that the past three years are the norm. I think this is the new normal. It's going to be bumpy. Doesn't mean that we're going to be facing really hard times, but it's going to be touch and go. And I've been beating this drum for a long time is we have to develop better skills, implement better strategies. That should be an ongoing thing. And, you know, I see so many people who took their foot off the gas over the past few years now. They don't have the skills, the chops and the muscle tissue to really, you know, be able to deal with the current reality. I mean, what's your take on that?

Yeah, I think that that insight is so accurate in terms of. It just felt like that there was such a boost, especially when everyone was stuck at home and investing in their businesses and getting Covid stimulus packages, and everybody was just kind of ready to, you know, throw all this money at freelancers. And then when that started to wane and we started kind of get into the times that we're in, it's definitely been a shift in the marketplace, but that doesn't mean that there's not a ton of great opportunities to really kind of find the clients that are your ideal clients that are really excited to work with you and really excited to kind of, like, engage with your services in. But you just have to find them and then also speak their language and then also have them find you through different ways in terms of, like, SEO and creating these magnets to pull clients to you in a way that they're just, like, really excited to work with you when they find you through these different channels.

Perfect. And one thing I want to emphasize is these things that you just mentioned and that we're going to be talking about, these are things that you actually do, you know. So this is not theory. This is stuff. And I know you're going to be talking about. You're going to get Even in the weeds a little bit. And I invite you to do that because I know that's what people want to hear right now, things that are working out there in the field. So you mentioned ideal clients. This is a question and a concern I hear a lot. It's like when I ask people, well, who's your ideal client? And I just had a conversation with somebody yesterday about this. They can't really tell me. It's like, well, these people. But I also like this and I love this industry and I also want to keep a foot in journalism. So I want to keep writing for these types of publications on these topics. And it's all over the place. Essentially what they're telling me is I can write anything for anybody. So why don't you talk to us a little bit about the importance of identifying your ideal client, being really, really clear on that.

Definitely. I think that one of the big benefits of identifying your ideal client is that you know how that they're going to find you and what is the best way for you to convince them to work with you without you even having to hop on a call. And I think when I was really getting started as a freelancer, I was the same way. I was like, I just want to work with everybody. I'm, I'm here to just like, do some great work. And that only allowed me to charge 20, $30 an hour because I was just a generalist. I wasn't, I wasn't being thoughtful and intentional about how I was offering value to different clients. I wasn't intentional about my marketing or how they were finding me. And this year, which is tough economic times, I was able to raise my rates to 7,50 an hour because I got laser focused on how to talk to my ideal clients. The value that I was able to give them, and also trying to figure out exactly what are those, like, magnets to pull them to me through SEO. On my blog, through a bunch of different channels that I kind of, I was able to identify like, oh, this is going to be the thing that's going to get you from being on the fence about working with me to being like, yes, Amy is the perfect writer for this job. I'm so excited to get started on this project with her. And I think that that psychology kind of spills over into sales psychology. But no, sales psychology is going to be useful if you have no idea who you're trying to target or how you're even going to help them and provide value to them.

So true. So a couple of things you mentioned that we can't just kind of ignore. One is your internal hourly rate now is up to 7:50 an hour. Okay. Which, okay, whoa, let's come back to that. But I also want to provide a little bit of context. So let's backtrack a little bit. You said, you know, you started a few years ago and like many of us, you know, you started really low bargain basement level. So give us a little bit of context and a little bit of history.

Yeah, so I started freelancing around seven years ago and I was doing it just part time on the side. I was actually trying to be a writer in Hollywood and I was working minimum wage assistant jobs, working my way up the ladder. And I started moonlighting as a freelancer. And I started to see that my skills as a freelancer were getting more in demand than my skills as a TV writer in Hollywood. And so I started ghostwriting memoirs and doing copy for different businesses and just really kind of growing that slowly. And when the pandemic hit in 2020 and everything shut down and I was just like, you know what? I don't think Hollywood is going to give me the kind of life that I want. I want to travel, I want to see the world. And I basically quit Hollywood, went full time freelance, started quarantining in different air B&Bs with a bunch of friends around the country. And then when the restrictions lifted, I started traveling around the world and I'm now a full time digital nomad. And the kind of like switch for me really happened when I was like forced to kind of think about what kind of life that I wanted and how I wanted to help people and what I wanted to do with my writing. I still do my own creative projects, but when I'm working with other people, I really love being able to give them something written that will change their life and help them in their business, in what they're working on and to like really move the needle for them and understanding the different ways that I could leverage that. When I was helping ghost writing different people's memoirs or their business books or helping them with different copy, I was able to see like the moments that that needle was able to be moved. And then in this last year, I focused almost exclusively on book ghostwriting as well as some business writing and copywriting, but mostly business book ghostwriting because I'm seeing how the long form copy is or the long form content. As a freelance writer, I'm able to kind of really dial things in for people in a way that ChatGPT could never. Which AI is like, definitely something. Something that I think a lot of freelancers have on their minds these days. But that's kind of been my journey of, like, trying out different things, trying out kind of, like, different paths, but really always coming back to the niches of, like, business book writing and copywriting from business world and kind of helping people in tech. But that this year, I've kind of mostly focused on the book side of things.

Perfect. So let's come back then to ideal client. Sounds like your value proposition or your positioning is that you do business book ghostwriting. So tell us about your audience for whom.

Yeah, so my audience is for people. I kind of have this sweet spot of not just people who want their business book written, but also people who want to tell their story through the lens of their business. And so I help people who are entrepreneurs, usually not necessarily in big cities all over the world, who are really fascinated in. They have a really cool life story that led up to them founding a business. And I love kind of blending that storytelling with the business book kind of side of things. And I do that in a really unique way for clients where they get to kind of watch their life unfold and then also teach the reader business tips and tricks through that. And so blending that storytelling with business tips is something that I'm really passionate about because I'm also very both creatively minded and entrepreneurially minded.

Very cool. Okay, so it sounds like you have the description down and not just the demographics, but especially the psychographics. Right. Of your ideal client. Tell us a little bit more. Like somebody's thinking, okay, I need to dial it in better. After listening to Amy, I definitely don't have those kind of descriptions. You know, I focus on, you know, SaaS companies, or I focus on food or hospitality or whatever. What I heard you say was much more nuanced. So how do we go from something that's a little broader to something that's more nuanced and will actually get somebody somewhere?

Definitely. I think it kind of starts with thinking about, what are those projects or clients that you just loved working with? And you're like, wow, that assignment was so much fun. And starting with that, then you can kind of trace back and be like, I really love working for this client, and they were in this industry. I really like looking at working on this assignment. Then you can kind of follow your passion a bit more and understanding, okay, well, there is demand for my services with these types of clients and projects, and I really like them. And it was a really rewarding experience. I want to do more of that and then just kind of doubling down on that. I think that that's the best way to kind of find your ideal client is figuring out like what experiences as a freelance writer you really loved and what client's eyes really lit up when you turned in that assignment. So you can find that intersection of client demand and your passion for what you do.

Got it. Okay, so let me play devil's advocate. Amy, that sounds great, but I don't want to limit myself. I've had other clients that I like too. And what if I narrow it down to a point where now nobody's going to, you know, I'm going to miss out on all these other opportunities. What would you say to that?

Yeah, I think that if you had the choice to hire somebody to, let's say, repair your car, do you want to hire somebody who, let's say you have a vintage car, do you want to hire somebody who is like a pretty good mechanic at working on a little, a lot of different cars, or do you want to hire somebody who is specific to that type of car that you have and they're an expert and they have had their 10,000 hours and fixing cars like yours and so you know you're going to be in good hands. It's like you could hire the generalist, but if you have an expert in front of you who maybe charges a little bit more, but they have the experience where you know you're going to get a good experience and you know that your car is going to be fixed properly, you're going to probably go with the expert. And I think that a lot of people, when faced with a freelancer that perfectly fits their need, we'll go with them over the generalist because there's a ton of generalists, a lot of people out there who either can't decide what their niche is or just kind of do a little bit of everything, if somebody like goes into Google and types in exactly what they want and your website comes up, then they're going to be more inclined to work with you. And I think that as a generalist, you can't get those really niche keywords or you can't really focus that really that very specific niche unless you go all in. And unless you be like, okay, this is my niche, this is what I'm focusing on. And then that's kind of where you're able to find those really high paying clients that are looking for you specifically, but only if you are marketing yourself in a way that is very specific to their needs.

Makes sense. Makes sense. So I would assume then that it's much easier to make those decisions once you've had, like you said, some experience here. Right. You're doing this inventory. Looking back, okay, what clients, what projects have really excited me and what kind of people have I enjoyed working with and so forth. And you've already had a lot of experience in some of these niches. So now you can really double down as opposed to if you still don't know, you know, don't base it on theory is what I'm hearing. It should be based on practical experience.

Yeah. When I got started as a freelancer, I was down to do anything. And I just went on freelance platforms and saw what was available under freelance writing and just applied to all of those jobs that I thought was interesting. And that's how I got my first memoir is like just recently.

That wasn't a plan, right? That wasn't what you set out to do?

Yeah, no, I just. It was a business book memoir combo, and I just thought it sounded really interesting. And I was like, this seems great. And it ended up being a really cool experience. And so I think that you kind of have to just try in the beginning to try a bunch of different jobs, but as soon as you really start to have a great experience with one type of client, one type of niche, getting narrow quicker. Because if you stay too much in the, like the zoom out to generalist, it's just going to be too difficult to compete for those clients that you're actually best suited for that you're most excited to work for.

I have the saying that when you really dial it in and you really narrow it down, what it does is it forces you to focus whom you pursue, but it doesn't limit whom you accept, which is a very important distinction. Right. It's like if somebody could come out of the blue through a referral or whatever, and listen, I need help. And it's outside of what you're saying on your website, you focus on. But let's just say that it sounds like an amazing opportunity. You can accept that opportunity if it makes sense for you. Right. It doesn't really limit that. Have you seen that?

Yeah, definitely. I think that's a great way that you put it, because I think that when you're trying to attract those ideal clients that are looking for that expert, you want to make sure that everything you know really screams you're an expert. But if you're too general and too vague, you're going to miss those people as well as people who are just, you know, come across you and think you're great and want you to work on a project that might not be exactly related to your niche. And so I think that if you're constantly trying to attract your ideal clients, you can't go wrong because you can always, like you said, accept somebody who comes in who isn't your ideal client but is like, something that you're still interested in. But you have to be able to really attract those ideal clients and build those magnets, otherwise they'll just never find you.

Well, let's talk about where these ideal clients hang out. Right? Let's say I've made some decisions and I'm nervous about it, but I'm doubling down and I'm taking Amy's word for it. Where are these people?

Yeah. So when you're kind of getting started as a freelancer, you have to do a lot of groundwork of going out and finding these ideal clients. And so earlier on my freelancing career, I would go to conferences and I would made my way to becoming a speaker at conferences, and I did a lot of traveling, and I still do travel, but not necessarily for the work side of things. And I also use tools like the growth list, which is basically email addresses of every single startup founder that is currently raising money for their business. And if they're raising money and they're trying to grow their company, then they probably are going to, you know, want to hire somebody to help with that in some way. And so trying to find, like, different email lists and different ways to think about, like, oh, if your ideal client is an entrepreneur, then where do they hang out? Where, like, what kind of places? And so trying to identify, like, where do they spend time physically in the real world, where do they spend time online? What social media platforms are they on? And if they're on, all of your ideal clients are hanging out on LinkedIn every day, then you should be on LinkedIn. If they are all on, you know, X or Twitter, then you should be there. And so it's trying to kind of figure out, like, digitally, where are they hanging out? Physically, where are they hanging out? Then also, what do they read? Like, what kind of information do they consume? Are there types of newsletters that they're trying to be a part of? Because you can also create newsletters specific to your industry or niche and kind of attract people that way as well, and then market to clients for the lifetime of your newsletter. And so there's a lot of different ways that you can do both content marketing as well as direct reach outs. But I still think that one of the strongest ways for freelancers to get clients is to build a blog with SEO specifically about what people are looking to hire you for. And I think a lot of freelancers overlook this because there. It can be really daunting to think that you can compete in Google search rankings to everybody else. But I have won so many jobs from literally writing blogs that were how to hire a memoir ghostwriter. And people just found me through that or how to hire a. I used to do a lot of work in copywriting for Web3. And so I wrote an article that was how to hire a writer for your NFT white paper. And that got me a bunch of jobs. And so writing things, putting things out on the Internet that literally say, like, here's how to hire me, or here's how to work with a freelance writer in this niche. And when people are typing into Google, oh, hire a, you know, book ghostwriter or hire a business book ghostwriter, then you are going to pop up if you are specific enough in the magnets that you're putting out there.

So, yeah, what I'm hearing is that its specificity is 80% of the game. Right. Because those keywords and topics you mentioned are highly nuanced. And yet one more reason to really narrow your field because it enables you to get very narrow, very nuanced, which means that you can write content like that, that's going to bring you your ideal prospects.

Definitely. And I was working with a freelance writer actually earlier today and trying to help her get more clients. And one thing that I saw off the bat is that she had a very specific niche, but she wasn't on any freelance platforms. And regardless of how you feel about freelance platforms, they're another search engine. And if you have a very specific niche and you just open up a profile and people are searching, oh, I'm trying to look for, you know, a health blogger specific to like the wellness spa space. And you are in that space and nobody else is on that platform, you will stand out by being the only one in the search results. And so thinking about all of the different ways that a social media profile is going to operate, like SEO. So having your niche in your name of your social media handle, having your niche in all of these different freelance platforms, even if you don't actively submit proposals on those platforms, still having a presence so people can find you. So I think that finding your ideal clients is part understanding where they are and going after them. But it's also part understanding the ways, all of the ways in which they could possibly find you and being really findable.

I don't want to get in the weeds with these next two follow up questions, but I do want to address them about platforms like upwork and blogging. Let's start with upwork, because you mentioned that one. If I'm in there and I use it as a way for people to find me because it is a very powerful search engine and I'm also using it because I'm so narrowly niched. Are you saying that the real benefit there is that people will find your name and then maybe go to your website? Or are you stuck now working with clients through these platforms which, you know, take a big chunk of your fee?

I think it kind of depends from freelancer to freelancer. Personally, I don't mind working on platforms like upwork because, you know, the fee that I would pay to upwork is something that I, you know, I think I consider it a finder's fee for clients that wouldn't have found me elsewhere. And there's, you know, when I'm doing a big project on upwork, it's not that big of a deal to like give a percentage to the platform that is feeding me these leads and sending me clients. But if you're a freelancer who really is against those platforms, it's kind of up to you. Because like, there's platforms like Contra, for example, that don't take a percentage of any of your projects. And just having a platform on there, you can work on the platform, you can work off the platform. So understanding just being on the platform is really helpful and you can decide from there how you're going to operate with the platform in regards to their terms of service and all that jazz. But I think that just existing on the Internet and as many places as possible is always a good thing.

Got it. Okay. No, makes sense. And I have nothing against that as long as it's strategic and you know, you know why you're doing it. Not you, but anyone when doing it. Let's talk about blogs and SEO. What I've been reading recently is that this is becoming a much harder strategy to play effectively because with the advent of AI, everything's going to be moving in that direction. So using blogs as an SEO tool get people to find you is really kind of dying. Are you seeing that? What's your counter argument to that premise?

Yeah, I'm not seeing that. I do have the benefit of having been a blogger for quite a Bit of time. I just posted a blog, like, I think a month ago and then immediately started ranking on the first page for self publishing on Amazon. So I'm still seeing. Which is a very popular keyword. So I'm still seeing a huge benefit of blogging. And I think that the real benefit comes for the keywords that most of the AI bloggers don't care about, which is if you are in a very, very specific niche and you're going after a very specific target audience where there might not only be like 10 or 20 searches a month, but those people are really trying to hire somebody, then you're not competing against those keywords that are completely, you know, underwater and being, you know, AI driven. Like, if you're competing for, like, I am a beauty blogger in this space and I'm trying to serve these clients, and I'm trying to rank for a keyword that is higher, a beauty writer for these types of things, then for clean beauty, then you're able to kind of like, find those keywords specific to people who are literally just trying to find you to hire you. And having a blog that is, you know, consistently posting and, well, ranking is its own kind of, like, strategy. But even if you just have a blog and just really kind of hit those really niche keywords, you can still get a ton of traffic and in ways that you're not going to expect, because those niche keywords don't have a ton of competition. So I still think it's valuable. I still think I was working with this other freelance writer who started posting these very niche keywords on her blog, and then within a week, she was getting jobs from them. And so that's pretty crazy to, like, move that quickly. But I think that because the keywords that you're after, if they're specific enough, I think that they can do you a lot of good.

Yeah, no, I'm with you. I'm with you there. It makes sense. Who knows where this is going? But I think for now, you know, I keep doing it. Sure. And I think you do have the benefit of having that blog established. And look, 10 searches a month, if these are serious players and you're ranked high or maybe the only real relevant result. That's huge. That's huge. So I like it. Let's talk a little bit then, about. I want to come back to what you said. Your hourly rate, you know, and I know you don't charge by the hour, but you have gotten your earnings to a point where you're averaging 7, 50 an hour. That's huge. So can you maybe share a little bit about what's enabled you to net that for every hour you put into your business?

Yeah. Recently I have started charging by the hour for ghostwriting and for book editing. And I think that. But no matter if you charge by the hour or not, I think it's really important to understand that as freelancers, the ideal number of hours that you want to work in a week or a year. And also considering all of the expenses that come with running your own business, like your hourly rate is naturally going to be a lot higher than somebody who's working for a company. Because if you're an employee, your health insurance is usually covered. You have benefits, you have all these things. And if you're a freelancer and you're running your own business, you pay for your own health insurance, you pay for your own subscriptions. And so making sure that you have a high hourly rate and getting to at least a hundred dollars an hour as quickly as you can from the moment you start freelancing is really important. And when you kind of start to surpass a hundred dollars an hour as a freelancer, you're able to do even better work for clients. And I think that what clients are realizing is that freelancers that are burned out and stretch too thin and not making enough, not able to save, not able to like, live full lives, aren't, aren't able to have the space to put out the kind of work that you're able to put out when you have a lot more time and you're able to invest in the work that you do for clients at those much higher hourly rates. And so with a premium hourly rate comes the promise of a premium work product for your clients. And so clients choose to work with me at this hourly rate because they want to invest in their books and work with somebody who is going to take it seriously and has the time, energy, training and skills to really help their book get to that next level. And I think that articulating this to clients who, you know, when you're used to hearing an hourly rate, you're used to hearing like, you know, 20, 30, 40, 100, $150 an hour. You know, lawyers even don't necessarily charge more than 3, 350 an hour. But as a, like an expert freelancer, you have to be able to articulate why you're worth that and why paying you for that time is not just paying you for that hour you're spent on spending on their project, but the decade plus of experience or the success that you've done, you've been able to bring to other people's projects. So, like, you're paying for the work history, the skill history, and you're also able to save that client time and make them money with that hour. And so articulating that is super important as a freelancer. But often as an expert freelancer, if you have a track record, you don't even have to articulate that. And that's kind of the whole point of like trying to build these magnets and this proof of work and this body of work so that when people land on your website and then they even. They visit your social, your freelance platforms, if you're on there, they see glowing reviews, they see like a full work history of people paying you that rate that you're asking them for. And so this building trust, that is so important because there's a lot of freelancers out there that just break trust. I've worked with a few freelancers that I just broke my heart for, like unrelated, like design projects and things where I'm just like, I just want to like, pay you for your help, please. Yeah, so it's so. It's so sad when I see that trust being broken. And unfortunately, that is something that happens quite a bit. And so when you're charging a very high hourly rate, you're making more promises to your clients to deliver quality, to deliver trust, to be very communicative. And you're also kind of sharing with them, like how what they can come to expect with working with you. So if you're charging a luxury rate, you have to provide a luxury service and make sure that clients understand the differentiator between your rate and everybody else and what they're charging.

So when you are charging an hourly rate, when you're working with somebody on an hourly rate, what hourly rate are you quoting clients?

7:50 an hour currently. So that's my current hourly rate for all projects.

Got it. Okay, so that. And I misunderstood. So I thought that was your internal. Not, you know, when you're quoting hourly. Okay, so. Got it. And I. Yeah, absolutely. If you're going to be at that level, you have to supported, you have to build all this credibility and value context around it. No doubt. So even then, do you sometimes find some prospects who, when you get to that discussion, are completely shocked by the number and how do you handle that exactly?

And this happened when I changed my rate. I went from 250 an hour to 350 an hour. That was like my first jump last year. And when I changed my rate to that, initially when I first moved my rate to that first number, I just got a huge backlash from potential clients who were in and people being like, how do you charge that much? It doesn't seem real. And then slowly when I started getting clients and building up that social proof at that number, that completely disappeared. Same thing happened when I jumped to 7:50 when I didn't have a full track record on my upwork profile on other platforms showing that I had projects at that rate. I got a bunch of messages being like, I think there's a typo. And you're right, I think there's a zero there that shouldn't belong there. And I'm like, nope, not a typo. Have a great day. And I think that especially as a woman on social media and on these platforms, like, you can get a little bit of backlash when you're charging more than some people's lawyers. And I understand that. And so. But then when I started landing projects, like 750 an hour, because people saw the value and I was able to show that track record on upwork and be like, hey, look, this is I'm charging and people are paying, you know, what I'm charging, and they're happy with the work and they're really, you know, excited about what I'm providing for them and the value makes sense. Then people, you know, stop saying that there was a typo and started saying, when are you available? Like, what's your project slots? Like, how much will this cost in total? And then I was able to actually move past the shock of what the number was to articulating, like, how I would work with them and how I'd provide value. So I think that a lot of freelancers are afraid of charging past a certain amount because you think that, oh, nobody's going to pay that. There's always going to be clients. Your ideal clients will pay the rate that you're asking for. It's just a matter of making sure that the rate that you're charging is also commensurate with the value that you're giving them and that you're in the right niche providing the right service to the people who care about what you're doing. And that can be tricky to line up. And it took me time and earlier in my freelancing career to make sure that I was providing the type of value that my clients really got the most out of. And when somebody's telling their, you know, the story of how they started their business and how that dovetails with who they are as a person. Like they're willing to spare no expense to make sure that their legacy is really communicated in a way that is beautiful, that they can keep forever and pass on to generations. And so I kind of recognize that it was the service I was able to provide as a book ghostwriter in that space was invaluable. And so trying to find those niches where there's a huge pain point, there's a lack of skill, and then there's this lack of an ability to just like throw things into ChatGPT because people are wanting more of a deeper experience on a longer form piece. That's kind of the sweet spot that I found. And I think that there's a lot of opportunities like that out there that freelance writers can take advantage of and charge those luxury rates, but also give something to people that they will cherish for forever, whether that's a business outcome or an outcome of your work as personally or professionally or in any number of ways.

Yours is a great example of this idea that value doesn't need to be hard dollars and cents, right? It doesn't have to be roi. Every time I explain value, talk about value, everybody goes there, you know, oh, well, I don't, you know, my stuff is hard to measure. You know, I don't have results from my clients. I don't have feedback on that. There's so many ways to talk about value, including risk. Risk avoidance is a huge one and this is a great example. So if one of these founders hired somebody who is a really bad fit, ends up being, you know, a bad writer, somebody who doesn't get it, maybe they don't jive with this person. They initially thought they would, but they don't. That's their baby, you know, other than their company. Right. They have this legacy book they want to create. You've been able to really shine a spotlight on the value of that kind of risk mitigation when going with you, what that book is worth to them, which is you can't put a dollar value on it. So I commend you for that because that is a beautiful way of presenting your value. Now a couple of follow up questions with that. One is you mentioned this, that one of the questions that does come up is, okay, well how much do you figure this whole project is going to cost? Because with hourly. That's always the question, which I find hilarious. People want an hourly rate, but then they're also going to want to know how much it's going to cost. So what Is your average book project be by the time it's all said and done?

Yeah, it really just depends because sometimes clients, like, I'll fly out to meet them, sometimes they'll also want my help with publishing. And so projects can be anywhere from like 60 to 100k, depending on what's included, what they want help with, and then how they want to work with me and the different styles of working with me, whether that's me being there in person or us doing things virtually and things like that. So it really just kind of depends. And those rates are not too far away from a lot of the standard book ghostwriter rates. I think that the difference comes in because, one, I'm a professional and I can work a lot faster than a lot of other writers. But also I think that another place that I'm able to offer a lot of value is either being in person with people. And those projects can kind of go a lot further than 100k and, like, being able to, like, kind of walk people through a process in a really prestige way. And so the hourly rate, like, it helps me to protect my time and protect my ability to give really good work with people and also protect my ability of. Because I'm also an expert and work a little faster than beginners, I want to make sure that that rate also protects. Doesn't penalize me for being a little bit more quicker than other writers. And so that's another kind of piece of the value of, like, you're working with an expert in this process. Like, books don't take me as long as other writers. Like, I think that, like, for a lot of the projects that I do, like, depending on how I'm working with the client, it can take anywhere from, like, three to six months to do a full book, start to finish through the whole draft and multiple revisions, beta readers, talking to friends and family, all of that. And with other writers. I've seen certain ghostwriters take years on a book, and that's sometimes even not even the writer's fault. Sometimes the client can get distracted. And so I've developed a process to really kind of compress press and to really get to the heart of, like, somebody's story more quickly because I know the right questions to ask. I spent a lot of years asking a lot of entrepreneurs a lot faster than a lot of other writers. But also I think that another place that I'm able to offer a lot of. A lot of different questions about their life and their business. And so maybe I'm able to kind of Jump ahead and get deeper into a subject matter with them more quickly. And so I think that another kind of thing that my business model offers people is saving them time. And so I think anytime you can save people money, save people time, help them cement a legacy, is really important. And so. But yeah, anytime you're quoting hourly, everybody wants to know the project rate. But the nice thing about working hourly is that if a project starts to balloon, like, you given them kind of like the guidelines and how much it'll cost. But if they want more out of the process, they want more value, they want more help with something. They want another draft. They want you to do more interviews. I've attended friends and families, like, family reunions. Like, I've kind of been at the beck and call of people. And I'm able to be really generous with my time on an hourly basis. And so that's why I think hourly, for the space that I'm in currently works the best. And value is either being in person with people, and those projects can kind of go a lot further than 100k and, like, being able to, like, kind of walk people through a process in a really prestige way. And so the hourly rate, like, it helps me to protect my time and protect my ability to give really good work with people and also protect my ability of. Because I'm also an expert and work a little faster than beginners, I want to make sure that that rate also protects. Doesn't penalize me for being a little bit more quicker than other writers. And so that's another kind of piece of the value of, like, you're working with an expert in this process. Like, books don't take me as long as other writers. Like, I think that, like, for a lot of the projects that I do, like, depending on how I'm working with the client, it can take anywhere from, like, three to six months to do a full book, start to finish through the whole draft and multiple revisions, beta readers talking to friends and family, all of that.

Yeah, it sounds like you have that conversation dialed in. When they ask, you can give them an idea, but then you can also explain what goes into it, which is really important. Somebody wants to understand what they're working with here. One thing that's.

And with other writers, I've seen certain ghostwriters take years on a book, and that's sometimes even not even the writer's fault. Sometimes the client can get distracted. And so I've developed a process to really kind of compress and to really get to the heart of, like, somebody's.

Story stood out for me too is that you're selling a luxury service for.

A more quickly because I know the right questions to ask. I spent a lot of years asking a lot of entrepreneurs a lot of different questions about their life and their business. And so maybe am able to kind of jump ahead and get deeper into subject matter with them more quickly. And so I think that another kind of thing that my business model offers people is saving them time. And so I think anytime you can save people money, save people time, help them cement a legacy is really important.

And so client who wants a top notch, high end experience. Right.

But yeah, anytime you're quoting hourly, everybody wants to know the project rate. But the nice thing about working hourly is that if a project starts to work balloon like you given them kind of like the guidelines of how much it'll cost. But if they want more out of the process, they want more value, they want more help with something, they want another draft, they want you to do more interviews. I've attended friends and families like family reunions.

Like that is a small percentage of the market, but you don't need that many. I want to really highlight that. I think it's really important. If you were an agency that's trying to crank out a bunch of these books every year, I think that would be much more difficult.

Kind of been at the beck and call of people and I'm able to be really generous with my time on an hourly basis. That's why I think hourly for the space that I'm in currently works the best.

And yeah, it sounds like you have that conversation dialed in. When they ask, you can give them an idea, but then you can also explain what goes into it, which is really important. Somebody wants to understand what they're working with here. One thing that stood out for me too is that you're selling a luxury service for a client who wants a top notch, high end experience. Right. And that is a small percentage of the market, but you don't need that many. I want to really highlight that. I think it's really important. If you were an agency that's trying to crank out a bunch of these books every year, I think that would be much more difficult to do. But it's just you, you have basically a white glove luxury experience here and you're able to charge a premium for that. In fact, I would even say that if you were too low with a lot of these clients, they would be concerned.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that that's something that is really surprising. And I'VE seen other freelancers talk about this too, where sometimes they'll have like a mid tier offering and then a premium tier offering and their premium tier offering at the higher price point will sell so much better than their mid tier offering. And I think that that just goes to show that clients want to pay more for higher quality things and they want to pay more for peace of mind, trust and understanding that they're not going to have to go through for freelancers to get their book done. And a lot of clients come to me after they've tried to work with an agency or a big company that just didn't take their book and their project, their life series to do.

But it's just you, you have basically a white glove luxury experience here and you're able to charge a premium for that. In fact, I would even say that if you were too low with a lot of these clients, they would be concerned.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that that's something that is really surprising. And I've seen other freelancers talk about this too, where sometimes they'll have. And so I think that the benefit that freelancers have in this new economy is a lot of people are going to be trying to outsource with AI or agencies or different things and they're going to realize that they're not getting that kind of like attention to detail that a real skilled professional who cares deeply about the work that they do will give them. And so I think that's where like expert freelancers can really like a mid tier offering and then a premium tier offering. And their premium tier offering at the higher price point will sell so much better than their mid tier offering. And I think that that just goes to show that clients want to pay more for higher quality things and they want to pay more for peace of mind, trust and understand and define themselves in this more difficult economy and make sure that they are singular and that they're not going to have to go through four freelancers to get their book done. And a lot of clients come to me after. And you can do that through personal branding, through marketing, through offerings, but also through pricing, which is really important to make sure that you get that right.

I love it. What percentage would you say of your business comes from platforms like Upwork versus people finding you directly through your website and your blog?

Yeah, it definitely changes, but I would say about 20 to 30% of my business comes through platforms like Upwork and Contra. And then the render, they've tried to work with an agency or a big company that just did didn't take their book and their project, their life seriously. And so I think that the benefit that freelancers have in this new economy is a lot of people are going to be trying to outsource with AI or agencies or different things, and they're going to realize that they're not getting. This comes through almost exclusively through my website and then I occasionally get leads through social media. But I have found social media is very hit or miss in the kind of clients that I'm after. Because that kind of like, attention to detail that a real skilled professional who cares deeply about, usually they find me or their assistants find me directly through my website rather than the work that they do will give them. And so I think that's where like expert freelancers can really, you know, scrolling on social media.

Got it. And how many clients are you working with at any given time? I'm sure it varies because of the.

Cycles, but, you know, define themselves in this more difficult economy and make sure that they are singular.

On average, are you currently working on one book or usually two books, but one is just starting. How does that work?

Yeah, I try to stagger them and schedule them out. So. And you can do that through personal branding, through marketing, through offerings, but also through pricing, which is really important to make sure that you get that right.

I love it. What percentage would you.

I'm currently working on two book projects at the moment and I have another one starting in about a month and a half. And so I'm trying to make sure that. Because as a luxury freelancer, you have to make sure that you don't have too many projects at one time, say.

Of your business comes from platforms like upwork versus people.

So I often try to close my, like accepting like, of new clients and create wait lists when I need to or be like, hey, like just so you can.

Which makes you more attractive, by the way.

Definitely. And so I think just being honest about your availability is actually a great marketing strategy.

Being like, hey guys, finding you directly through your website and your blog, yeah, it definitely changes.

But I would say about 20 to 30% of my business comes through platforms like upwork and Contra. And then the rent, I'm full, like I don't have any availability for the next few months. But I, I will be taking new clients in February of 2024. And so just kind of giving people these ideas of like, when you'll be available also makes them more motivated to get everything organized on their end to hire you and also to see that you're in demand and see that other people are hiring you, which also improves social proof and trust.

Tell me, a little bit of this.

Comes through almost exclusively through my website. And then I occasionally get leads through social media, but I have found social media is very hit or miss. And the kind of clients that I'm.

After because about your travels, I know you're a digital nomad, you're currently in one city, you're about to go have another adventure. Give us a flavor for what your lifestyle is like in that regard.

Yeah. So I just got back from Peru where I was so excited to work on a new book project. And then while I was like in the middle of that book project, I did a four day trek to Machu Picchu on the Inca trail. And so to be able to like work on my freelance work in this beautiful town of Cusco, Peru, up in the mountains and be like diving into this like new book. And my office was just like, usually they find me or their assistants find me directly through my website rather than really beautiful sunroom that overlooked the city and had like sunlight streaming in all day. And then being able to go out in nature and spend four days in nature, just enjoying being there and going on this, this hike of 26 miles to Machu Picchu and then come back feeling like excited and refreshed and then ready to get back into writing. Like being able to have that flexibility to work on projects I'm really passionate about and then go and enjoy nature and the cities that I'm in. You know, scrolling on social media.

Got it. And how many clients are you working with at any given time? I'm sure it varies because of the cycles, but you know, on average are you currently working on one book or usually two books, but one is just.

I'm going to Japan next year. I'm headed to Costa Rica in a few weeks. Like that kind of flavor and flexibility of travel also makes me a better writer because I have all of these perspectives.

Starting, how does that work?

Yeah, I try to stagger them and schedule them out. So I'm also able to meet my clients in different places. I met up with one of my clients in Athens to discuss her book and some book edits we were doing with her.

And so Athens, Greece, not Athens, Georgia.

Right, Athens, Greece.

Okay. Just making sure. Yeah, yeah, because Athens is two hours away from me, but it's a different one.

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Athens also. But yeah, it was really, it's been really neat to be able to go and meet my clients in different places. I'm in New York several times a year to meet up with some of my clients there. And so it's really nice to be able to, like, have this ability to go to people. I'm currently working on two book projects at the moment, and I have another one starting in about a month and a half. And so I'm trying to make sure that. Because as a luxury freelancer, you have to make sure that you don't have too many projects at one time. So I often try to close my, like, accepting, like, of new clients and create waitlists when I need to, or be like, hey, like, just.

Which makes you more attractive, by the way.

Definitely. And so I think just being honest about your availability is actually a great marketing strategy. Being like, hey, guys, I'm full. Like, I don't have any availability for the next few months, but I will be taking new clients in February of 2020 people in person. Because even though I think you can get a lot done on Zoom, asynchronous work is an incredible way to work through things creatively and collaboratively if you know how to use it right. But I do think that there is still a magic of being in person, especially when you're talking through really complex, like, subjects about your childhood, your life story, your business, like, and so being able to offer that to my clients as a digital nomad and just kind of, like, being able to, like, bop around and meet up with people, I think is also something that gives me a competitive advantage, and it's also something that makes me a better writer, because when I'm writing stories for people who are not from the US and are from other places in the world, I'm able to be like, oh, I can understand you, because I've been to that place and I've walked in your shoes in this place, and you've given me a tour of your hometown. And to be able to be kind of, like, almost journalistic in my approach with memoirs allows me to write in my client's voice better. And so that commitment to being able to be like, yeah, I'll just hop on a plane. Let's go. Like, it's something that I'm able to do with me for. And so just kind of giving people these ideas of, like, when you'll be available also makes them more motivated to get everything organized on their end to hire you and also to see that you're into my lifestyle as a digital nomad.

That sounds wonderful.

It's great. It's wonderful.

Can I come join you?

Absolutely. You know, you can see that other people are hiring you, which also improves social proof and trust.

Tell me a little bit about your travels. I know you're a digital nomad, you're currently in one city, you're about to go have another adventure, give us a flavor. One thing I want to kind of circle back to some of the things you've been talking about. You've really emphasized the importance of attraction marketing. What I like to call attraction marketing is get people to come to you, I think especially with your target audience for what your lifestyle is like in that regard.

Yeah.

So I just got back audience that is essential. People who are looking to write a legacy book like that aren't advertising it. It's a decision they've made. It's a personal decision.

And they're from Peru where I was so excited to work on a new book project. And then while I was out there.

Or their assistant is out there looking for someone who can make that dream possible. So I think it points to the fact that we need to once we understand who our audience is and we decided double down. Do we get a really good handle.

For like in the middle of that book project I did a four day trek to Machu Picchu on the Inca Trail. And so to be able to like work on my freelance work in this beautiful town of Cusco, Peru, up in.

The where they hang out and to what kind of marketing mix we're going to need to deploy. Because if it's going to be the kind of audience that doesn't advertise and.

Be like diving into this like new book and my office was just like.

The fact that, oh, I've decided to do X and there are many types of projects that fall into this category. Then you need to be extremely visible and you're messaging really beautiful sunroom that.

Overlooked the city and had like sunlight streaming in all day and needs to.

Be very nuanced so they can find you. I kind of equated to and I think my friend Derek Lewis, who's a business book ghostwriter said this. He said it's like marriages that are.

In trouble then being able to go out in nature and spend four days in nature just enjoying being there and going on this.

You would never know it. So if you're an attorney, a divorce attorney, you can't start knocking on doors or sending out cold emails.

This hike of 26 miles to Machu Picchu and then come back feeling like excited and refreshed.

Check on people's needs for a divorce attorney, you have to approach it differently. You have to use attraction marketing or. I think he talks about pest control as well. You know, you don't know who's got a rodent problem, you know, in their house or an ant problem. So I think crushed and then ready.

To get back into writing. Like being able to have that flexibility to work on projects I'm really passionate about and then go and enjoy nature and the cities that I'm in.

It's really smart that you've really emphasized and focused so much on it.

I'm going to Japan next year. I'm headed to Costa Rica in a few weeks.

Like that kind of traction marketing. Because for you, it's a must. There's no way around it.

Definitely. And I think that different types of freelancing require different types of marketing. Just like you were saying, Flavor and flexibility of travel also makes me a better writer because I have all of these perspectives. When I was more in tech copywriting and web3 copywriting, I could send out cold emails and like 8 out of 10 of them would turn into clients. But when it comes to book ghostwriting, you can't. People aren't. If they're not thinking about writing a book, they're not going to be writing a book. They're just not. And so I think that I had to learn a little bit the hard way when I was like, oh, I can definitely, like, find more book clients. Like, this will be easy. And then going the cold email route, I'm like, no. Even if I got calls with people, I just realized I'm like, they're not caring about this. And they maybe aren't even big readers or don't care about leaving their legacy. They're just here to chat and see what's going on and what this is like. I'm also able to meet my clients in different places. I met up with one of my clients in Ethic, then they're not going to be good clients. It's the clients that come into my website that read an article about what ghostwriting is like or how to work with a ghostwriter or what a book can kind of do for their legacy or their business. They are the best clients because they already have that bias of they found me, they've done their homework on me. So they're already mostly convinced to work within to discuss her book and some book edits we were doing with her.

And so Athens, Greece, not Athens, Georgia. Right.

Athens, Greece.

Okay. Just making sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Because Athens is two hours away from me. But it's a different one.

Yeah, yeah, that's Great Athens also. But yeah, me, because they've experienced me in many different ways on the Internet before we even hop on a call. It was really. It's been really neat to be able to go and meet my clients in different places. I'm in New York several times a year to meet. So often even before I hop on a call with people, they've already been sold and they're ready to go.

Tell us about your book and where people can learn more about you, what you do, and connect with you.

Yeah. So earlier this year, I released a book called the Six Big up with some of my clients there. And so it's really nice to be able to, like, have this ability to go to people in person, because even though I think you can get a lot done on Zoom, asynchronous work is if you're a freelance writer. And it's basically travel memoir, but also mostly on a guide on how to build a holistic career as a freelance writer. I love teaching people what I've learned and kind of sharing my secrets and just being vulnerable and open about, like, this is what has worked with me, an incredible way to work through things creatively and collaboratively, if you know how to use it right. But I do think that they and what has not. And I also owe a lot of my freelance career to people who've taught me how to be a freelancer and been open and honest about what worked for them. And so I published that book in March of this year, and it was. There is still a magic of being in person, especially when you're talking through really complex, like, subjects about your childhood, your life story, your business, like, and so being able to offer that to my clients as a digital nomad and just kind of like being able to, like, bop around and meet up with people, I think for one on Amazon, new new releases for its category, and it's still trending on the Amazon bestseller list and top 100 for its category, which is really exciting. And if people want to learn more about me, they can go to my website, amysudo.com awesome.

And obviously the book available on Amazon, I'm sure you have more about it on your website as well. So you were nice enough to send me a copy, which I did read about 80%. About 80% the way I kind of consume books these days. And it's fantastic. So thank you. Definitely has my endorsement. It gets into a ton of detail. And I would say it's also something.

That gives me a competitive advantage. And it's also something that makes me a better writer because when I'm writing stories for people who are not from the US and are from other places in the world, I'm able to be.

Like, say that there's something there for everybody. If you're starting out or kind of mid career def.

Oh, I can understand you because I've been to that place and I've, I've walked in your shoes in this place and you've given me a tour of your hometown and to be able to be kind of like almost journalistic in my approach.

And even if you're an established six figure writer, copywriter, freelancer, there's some really nice inspirational items there and some golden nuggets that I think anyone can benefit from. So kudos to you.

Thanks so much. No, I really appreciate it and thank you for having me a guest on your podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time and I really love your conversational style of like how you get guests to open up about a subject that I think a lot of people can learn more about and really build really inspiring careers for themselves.

Well, the pleasure is mine, Amy. Thanks for coming on. I know we've been trying to make this happen for a while and glad we did. Thank you for coming on.

Awesome. Thanks, Ed.

Well, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode.

And just a quick reminder to grab your free copy of my latest book, Burn More in less time.

The proven mindset strategy with memoir allows me to write in my client's voice better. And so that commitment to being able to be like, yeah, I'll just hop on a plane, let's go, like it's something that I'm able to do with.

Actions to prosper as a freelance writer.

You can get your free copy@b2b launcher.com.

Or you will also find the details.

Show notes to my lifestyle as a digital nomad.

That sounds wonderful.

It's great. It's wonderful.

Can I come join you?

Absolutely.

You know, you this in all my other episodes.

Enjoy and have a great day.

One thing I want to kind of circle back to some of the things you've been talking about. You've really emphasized the importance of attraction marketing. What I like to call attraction marketing is get people to come to you. I think especially with your target audience, that is essential. People who are looking to write a legacy book like that aren't advertising it. It's a decision they've made. It's a personal decision and they're out there or their assistant is out there looking for someone who can make that dream possible. So I think it points to the fact that we need to, once we understand who our audience is and we decided to double down, that we get a really good handle for a. Where they hang out and to what kind of marketing mix we're going to need to deploy. Because if it's going to be the kind of audience that doesn't advertise, the fact that, oh, I've decided to do X and there are many types of projects that fall into this category, then you need to be extremely visible and your messaging needs to be very nuanced so they can find you. I kind of equate it to. And I think my friend Derek Lewis, who's a business book ghostwriter, said this. He said, it's like marriages that are in trouble, you would never know it. So if you're an attorney, a divorce attorney, you can't start knocking on doors or sending out cold emails to check on people's needs. For a divorce attorney, you have to approach it differently. You have to use attraction marketing or. I think he talks about pest control as well. You know, you don't know who's got a rodent problem, you know, in their house, or an ant problem. So I think it's really smart that you've really emphasized and focused so much on attraction marketing, because for you, it's a must. There's no way around it.

Definitely. And I think that different types of freelancing require different types of marketing. Just like you were saying, when I was more in tech copywriting and web three copywriting, I could send out cold emails and like, eight out of ten of them would turn into clients. But when it comes to book ghostwriting, you can't. People aren't. If they're not thinking about writing a book, they're not going to be writing a book. They're just not. And so I think that I had to learn a little bit the hard way. When I was like, oh, I can definitely, like, find more book clients like, this will be easy. And then going the cold email route, I'm like, no. Even if I got calls with people, I just realized, I'm like, they're not caring about this and they maybe aren't even big readers or don't care about leaving their legacy. They're just here to chat and see what's going on and what this is like, then they're not going to be good clients. It's the clients that come into my website that read an article about what ghostwriting is like or how to work with a ghostwriter or what a book can kind of do for their legacy or their business. They are the best clients because they already have that bias of they found me, they've done their homework on me. So they're already mostly convinced to work with me because they've experienced me in many different ways on the Internet before we even hop on a call. And so often even before I hop on a call with people, they've already been sold and they're ready to go.

Tell us about your book and where people can learn more about you, what you do, and connect with you.

Yeah. So earlier this year I released a book called the Six Figure Freelance Writer. And it's basically travel memoir, but also mostly on a guide on how to build a holistic career as a freelance writer. I love teaching people what I've learned and kind of sharing my secrets and just being vulnerable and open about like, this is what has worked with me and what has not. And I also owe a lot of my freelance career to people who've taught me how to be a freelancer and been open and honest about what worked for them. And so I published that book in March of this year and it was number one on Amazon New new releases for its category and it's still trending on the Amazon Bestseller list and Top a Hundred for its category, which is really exciting. And if people want to learn more about me, they can go to my website. Amy sudo.com awesome.

And obviously the book available on AM.