#333: The 5 Biggest Mistakes Writers Make When They Edit

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey, Daphne, Welcome. Great to have you back.

Hi, Ed. Thanks for inviting me.

You know, this is your third time here. You were one of my first guests in the podcast 10 years ago.

Oh my goodness. Now you're making me feel really old.

Yeah, we were both a lot younger. You were younger than I was. That's how long ago it was. And, and it was. I want to. And I'll make sure to link to it in the show notes, but it was like episode 7 or 8. It was really early. So 2013. So this is your 10 year anniversary. Congratulations.

Thank you.

It's great to have you back. And you know, this is such an important topic. I don't think it's a topic that writers really like to talk about too much. I think at least my people tend to have a love hate relationship with editing. I don't know if you see the same thing with, with writers.

I'm seeing exactly the same thing. So many people, when I ask them about it, tell me they prefer editing to writing. So that's how it sort of begins. But then once I get them established on a better writing path, then all of a sudden they really dislike editing and they're looking for some help about how to do it and how to make it easier.

Yeah, I think everyone that I talk to just kind of makes it up. They want to pretend they have a system or some method, but they don't. And I see the frustration. I know I see it in me, I guess. Before we get into the material, why don't you give us a little bit of background, a little bit of the Daphne stories, Just so people who don't know, you know a little bit about who you are, what you do, how you got here.

Sure, sure. So my background is from journalism. My parents had a struggling weekly newspaper and I started working there at a very young age and gained all sorts of experience in writing and editing and management. And from there I went on to work for a large metropolitan yearly newspaper and I was a senior editor there for six or seven years. And then I went into management on the business side of the business and worked there for another four or five years or so. And then I left to have my children. I'm the mother of triplets, so that was a big deal. And I didn't really want to go back to regular work after that, but I was anxious to have something to do with my Brain, aside from, you know, holding crying babies. So I started my own business, and I started off by mainly writing and editing for clients. But one of the things I found was that I'm one of those people who. I was a born editor. I just was born with lots of natural aptitude for it and very little natural aptitude for writing. So I was very happy when I got jobs that allowed me to edit and very stressed and unhappy when I got jobs that required me to write. So I spent about six months really investigating the writing process and turning it into a system that would work for me and as it turns out, works for many other people as well. And then after I've been doing this for 20 years now, I'd say. And one of the things that people have asked me about for 20 years is how to edit. And I had originally intended to write a book on the subject, but it's a very difficult task to describe in a book. It's one of those things where people learn best by seeing someone else do it. So in any case, I haven't done the book, and I have no intention of doing the book. But I have made a study of the process, and I've itemized it as a kind of a system that people can follow. And if you follow a system, the act of editing becomes so much easier and so much less frightening and intimidating.

It really does. Especially something like this, because writing might come more naturally to somebody, but the editing, if you don't have it and you're making it up, I mean, you're starting all over again. The switching costs, the cognitive load of just trying to do this every time and do it differently. Not good. So on that topic, let's get into mistakes. I know you have because you've been working with writer for so long. Like you said, you've been documenting this stuff. What are the most common mistakes you see writers make when it comes to editing?

Well, the single most common mistake I find no contest is people will edit while they are writing. And you know, what I like to say is that's kind of like starting to eat your dinner while you're still cooking. It just doesn't work very well.

Oh, you don't do that.

So you don't want to be doing two things at once. I mean, there are kind of two reasons why you shouldn't edit while you write. Number one is it's a classic example of multitasking. And I think both of us now have heard from enough neuroscientists that we understand multitasking isn't smart. It doesn't allow you to do more things faster. Instead, what it does is it increases your own stress level. It makes you do the two jobs you're trying to do at the same time less well, and it leads to a less desirable result. So for all those reasons, you don't want to edit while you're writing because you can't do a good job as an editor. And I tell people this all the time, but there are many people who find the second reason you shouldn't do it even more persuasive. And that is that it makes you a worse writer. And it also makes you a worse editor. So the reason it makes you a worse editor is because you are too close to the material I tell people. Think about. You have done all the planning for what you're writing. You've done all the research. You've done all the thinking. You've done the writing, for goodness sakes. What makes you think that you're going to be able to put yourself in the mind's eye of your readers? Very, very difficult. You know too much. You don't know the questions that are going to pop up in their mind's eyes because you are too close to the material. That proximity to what you're writing about makes it very, very difficult for you to be a good editor. And then, of course, the other thing is that when you are editing, you're really evaluating the quality of what you've done. And once you get into the game of judging your quality, that just shuts down the creative centers inside of our brain. Our creative brain does not like being criticized. It hates it. As a matter of fact, it'll run away and hide if it's criticized. So essentially, by editing while you write, you're turning on the critical part of your brain, which is shutting down the creative part of your brain, which makes the act of writing even more difficult.

Got it? I mean, everything you said resonates with me. It's so true. It's so difficult to stop myself sometimes. But I. I see it. I see where I lock up and suddenly the idea stopped flowing.

Yes, if.

Cause I can't help myself. Well, wait a minute. No, I need to change the opening sentence. Whoa, wait a minute. I'm not done yet. I'm. You gotta get away. So, okay, so the first one, definitely they do it while they write, right? They edit while they write. Big, big problems.

Yes. And one other P.S. i want to add to that is that even the people who are disciplined enough not to edit while they write and There aren't very many of them, by the way, but even the people who don't do that frequently will start to edit too soon. Right after you finish writing is too soon to start editing. Oh, still too close to it.

Yes. And it needs incubation time, doesn't it?

It does need incubation time. So as a kind of a minimum incubation period, I suggest 24 hours. Because if you added sooner than that, you can probably recite some of your text back to yourself. It's so top of mind you're able to start reciting the text back to yourself. One of the things that'll happen is you'll miss some really obvious typos because our brains have this kind of autocorrect function in them and they're as annoying as our cell phones. They figure out what it is we want to read and that's what we see. We don't see the mistakes. So I say 24 hours is the minimum time. And for someone who's working on a long form project like a dissertation or a book, I suggest six weeks. Now that that usually makes people gasp or think I'm joking. But I'm not joking because for long form projects, I mean, if you're writing a book, most books are about 75,000 to 80,000 words. You don't have to write it in a week. You couldn't write it in a week. Your deadline is probably at least a year. Most dissertations have a two year deadline. So don't clump it all up. Don't start editing while you're writing because that's only going to make you do a bad job of both the editing and the writing. Post will do it later.

Let's take so a couple of questions and points. One is it seems like you want to wait for your RAM memory basically to clear. Right. Clear your cache because you're looking at it fresh, number one. So 24 hours minimum. Let's take a book as an example. So you're suggesting don't even when you're done with the first draft of a chapter, don't even go back, you know, move on to chapter two, et cetera, and then not start edit. I know we're going to talk about the process, but you're suggesting don't start editing at that point.

Well, what I would say, some people are all fired eager to start editing. I'm not worried that way. I'm quite content to wait until I finish the book, then I'll start editing it. But if you've got someone who's really eager to start editing then I would say date your work when you're writing it. And you can start editing once the material is six weeks old. Now, it may take some people more than six weeks to write a first chapter. And if that's the case, then they can go back and start editing the beginning of the first chapter as soon as six weeks are up. So it's a little more complicated in terms of managing your time. If you do it that way, it's not quite so cut and dried, but it works perfectly well. So that's another strategy that people can follow.

Okay, got it. I think when with long form. One thing I have found, again, I'm doing everything wrong. So, you know, please understand is I resist the temptation to edit too soon. But then I've got, let's say, three chapters under my belt. I go back to the first one a few weeks later and I realized that it's just all garbage. And then that kills my self confidence. Now I'm thinking this whole thing is going to collapse and my inner critic just takes hold completely.

Yes, yes, that can happen. Although, you know, to be honest, I've worked with a lot of people on this issue and I find that more typically what happens is people are surprised that the quality of their writing is far better than they to match.

Must be nice. Of course, I'm only recalling the negative events. I'm sure I've had those two. Okay, so yeah, that's why I wanted to ask. It seemed like, gosh, I don't know, do I really want to wait? Is it better to wait to not have my inner critic take over? But that's good stuff. So the point is, don't do it too soon, which is the mistake most people make. So let's move on to the next key mistake that you're seeing writers make with editing.

Well, I would say most people think that their job is to read and reread what they've written with the vague intent of making it better. They have no process other than that.

Ah, okay. And that's, that's a very vague goal, isn't it?

It's a very vague go goal. It's a very, very vague goal. And if you have vague goals, you're not going to get good results. So really, everybody who edits needs a process. You need to know what you're going to do, when you're going to do it, what's going to be required of you, how you're going to document it. All these things, if you have a Process, then all you do is follow the process. Takes away the guessing, it takes away the anxiety. It allows you to just follow the process.

Takes the emotion out of the process.

Yes.

Yeah, right. Which is the biggest killer? Okay, so. And I know I don't want to get in the weeds because this is what you teach. And the whole intention wasn't for you to, you know, walk us down every single part of the process. But at a high level, what does a good process look like?

Well, I'd say at a high level, the most important thing that I see people neglecting to pay enough attention to is that there are fundamentally two primary very different forms of editing. There is the. What's called copy editing, sometimes called line editing. And that's what people tend to think editing is. They don't think it's anything else. So copy editing or line editing is all about things like spelling and grammar and word choice, all these kind of important but small, picky issues. They're issues generally relating to rules or to style, but they're not relating to the content of what you've written. And what I've found over the years is that many people, when they edit, neglect to address the content issues. They don't ask themselves questions like, is this what my audience really needs to know? Have I made this interesting enough for my audience? Is everything in the right order? Have I left out any points that would be even more persuasive to my reader? Have I put in too many points? Is everything in the right order? So those content oriented questions, that's called substantive or developmental editing. And many people just let that go by the board. Particularly the type of people who have left their writing to the last minute, bottom line is they don't have time for substantive editing because they haven't left enough time. It.

Got it. So, yeah, even. Is this dry? Is this too dry? Do I need to incorporate a story here to make it come alive?

Right.

Well, those are questions you're right, that I don't want to ask myself. For the deadline is tomorrow morning. It's too late.

It's too late. Yeah.

Okay, so how can you make sure that you incorporate elements of that in your process? Do you suggest that one should start with that and then leave the copy editing till later?

Yes, absolutely. And this is hard for most people to do because, let's face it, if you see a spelling mistake staring in you in the eye, you want to fix it right away. And I'm not saying you have to draw such a hard line that you don't fix Spelling mistakes you notice. If you notice it, sure, fix it. But don't make that your first job when you edit. Another part of the reason for doing the substantive editing first is not just time management. It's also that if you are able to take a break after writing before editing, that is the time where you get the biggest benefit of that break. If you address the content right away. Because you don't need to have taken a break to fix spelling mistakes or grammar mistakes or, or change words, you don't need a break to deal with that stuff. But to direct the question, is this interesting enough? Have I hit all the main points? Is there anything I've left out here? You need some distance from that story, from the writing you've done to be able to address those questions. And what happens is once you start editing, you become really familiar with the story again. So that break you take, it has a limited shelf life because once you start reading and rereading the story again, you're going to become extra familiar with it right away. So you want to take the full benefit you can from having taken that break to really address the substance, the content of what you've written and to make sure that you're presenting the information in a way that's going to be interesting and useful enough to your readers.

Interesting. I don't have deadlines, writing deadlines like I used to because I coach full time now, but I used to do something. I'm curious what your take is on this. I did believe in breaks because I saw the difference. But I had this thing, especially if it was a long form project, like a white paper, I would actually go on a walk or a hike or do something outside of the house the morning of when I needed to really look at it fresh. And that seemed to really help it. Like it woke up my creative mind at a different part of my brain. Do you find that? Do you do that?

Oh, yeah, that's an absolutely smart idea. I mean, the thing is, by taking your brain into a different area, underlined in your case, by getting out of your office, getting out of the house, that really helps give you a little bit more distance. But I would say, I mean, that's one of the pieces of advice I give people who are caught in a catch 22, so they have a piece that they have to submit that afternoon. They can't take 24 hours because they don't have 24 hours. So what do you do in a situation like that? So in that kind of case, I would say, yes, go outside, go For a walk, go do something radically different to get your mind off of the content in the story you've just written about.

Smart. Okay. So have a process. Understand the difference between developmental editing and copy editing. Developmental needs to go first. Take a break between the writing and developmental. You made a great case for that. So mistake number three. I'm intrigued by this one. Tell us more about it.

Well, this is an interesting one. And, you know, this came to me fairly recently. And I think part of you remember how at the beginning of this call, I said that I was born with a talent for editing. I think that's true. But you know, what I think really made the huge difference for me was that I was a high school debater. So that was a big part of my life in high school. I did a lot of competitions. I did very well at it. I loved it. I found it very interesting, very rewarding. One of the things that happens as a debater is that you have to argue both sides of any question. Right. And so that allows you to see the argument from the other person's perspectives. And you have to do what's called rebuttal. So the other side says something, and then you have to say why they're wrong. And to be able to say why they're wrong, you have to predict what they're going to say. And I think all that mental game playing, you know, when I was 13 and 14 and 15 years old, of me putting my brain in the head of someone else really predisposed me to become a good editor. Because what happens with most people is they sit down and they read what they've written and they edit it to please themselves. And that is such a big mistake, because you're not writing for yourself, you're writing for someone else. So if you edit to interest, to please, to engage that other person, you're going to get a much better result.

That's a great point. I fall into this category quite often. You know, there is this concept, right? The curse of knowledge. Many times we're so familiar with a topic or a way of doing something that we forget that this might be very different from the way most people do it.

Yes.

And sometimes I have to catch myself. I have to work at that. It's like, whoa, wait a minute. This may be so different that I can't even go here right now. I need to understand where the reader might be coming from.

Yes.

Because I can please myself all day long. I'm not writing for me. I'm writing for somebody who's in a Different place right now. Yes, yes, Great point. So you need to put yourself in the shoes of the audience who you're writing for, bottom line. And you need to understand. That's a great point about the debate team bit, because you're right. You have to. I think that's a wonderful skill if you can really argue another side.

Yes.

That you were not for.

Yeah.

That makes you such a great critical thinker, you know?

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

We've lost that. We've lost that ability.

Yes, it's true.

Okay, so mistake number four. Tell us about that one.

Well, one of the things I found in, you know, more than 20 years of working with thousands of writers is that many people allow themselves to feel daunted by the task of editing. So it scares them. They think, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to make it better. I don't know when it's good enough. And I think the point I want to make to anyone who feels that way is that you need to understand that every professional writer feels that way all the time. No one. No one is capable of saying whether their writing is any good ever. Even if you've taken six weeks, you're still too close to it. The only way you can tell if your writing is good is to get feedback from an outside third party. That really is the only way. So this is why professional writers all love being edited. They are anxious and eager to send their work to a professional editor because that's where they're going to get the feedback that's going to tell them, is this any good? Does this meet the grade? You know, is this persuasive or interesting enough to you? You can't answer that question yourself. So the first thing I'd say to people who are feeling daunted is, don't have that expectation that you need to feel great about what you've written. Your only job, your only job is to make it better. Might be a little bit better, it might be a lot better, but that's all you can do. You are not capable of saying whether it's really good, and you'll never be capable of doing that. So don't hold yourself up to some sort of impossible standard. Now, one thing that gets some people, when I talk about professional editors, is they say, well, that's great, but I can't afford that. Well, if you can't afford that, that's fine. You can use Beta readers. So these are people, colleagues, friends, co workers who will read your work for you and respond to it. Not in the same way an editor would, but they can give you a sense of about the quality. They can say, yes, I found this interesting, or no, I didn't, or I would have liked it if you told me a little bit more about X, Y, Z rather than abc. You know, you can get some outside feedback from them, but don't expect that outside feedback to come from yourself, because that's an impossibility. Yeah, people pull themselves up to impossible standards. That's just a way to make yourself miserable.

I think it's easier for somebody like me to take that advice to heart because I'm not a perfectionist. But, you know, if you're talking to a perfectionist, that's a very, very difficult idea to take to heart and to actually execute.

Well, I would say if you're a perfectionist, you need to get an outside third party. Just do it. Don't think twice about it. Get a colleague, get a friend, get a coworker, get someone else who's going to read your work and you can do the same thing for them. So beta workers work without being paid, but generally people share that experience back and forth. So offer to do it for a friend or a colleague and have them do it for you. It will give you a much, much greater sense of confidence in the quality of your writing to have that kind of feedback.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I've also found that with beta readers, it's important that there's some sort of agreement because, you know, everyone's always busy, right. Everyone's on deadline and, you know, there needs to be some agreements for this to work. If you're going to have a small group in terms of turnaround time expectations, sometimes people need to understand that it's going to be a no. So that needs to be an accepted answer. And also agreement. And you tell me if, if, if this makes sense, but agreement on what kind of feedback you can expect. You know, like you said, it's like it's not gonna be very detailed. This shouldn't have to take two hours. Yeah, that's gonna be a high expectation. It's unrealistic. But like you said, hey, this isn't flowing very well for me. I'm getting stumped in this middle section. I feel like your arguments are kind of out of order. Or have you repeated this thing here and it doesn't make sense there, that sort of thing. Right. I think better feedback than much more detailed anyway.

Yeah, well, I mean, one of the things I should say, because I've worked As a professional editor for many years, when I edit, I try not to change much text. I use track changes and I put comments. So if I have a problem with something, I explain in the little note on the side what my problem is and I leave it to them to fix it. And beta readers can do that really well. I wouldn't expect beta readers to give me suggestions about what to do, but if they can identify problems, that's great. That's really valuable information to have. And the other thing I'd say about beta readers is first don't use family because they only is tricky. That's going to reflect the nature of your relationship with that person. And if it's a good relationship, they're probably going to be too positive. And if it's a bad relationship, they're probably going to be too negative. So you want people who have a little more distance from you than that then. The other thing I'd say about beta readers is give them a test before you make any sort of permanent or long standing relationship with them. I used 12 to 15 beta readers with both of my books, way more than I think was necessary, but I wouldn't recommend anyone else use that many. But one of the things I found was that people fall into certain categories and not the categories you expect. So some people who I thought would give me really thoughtful and intelligent substantive feedback gave me none of that. But they caught every freaking typo. It was like, whoa, I wouldn't have expected that from that person. So it is hard to predict what the nature of the comments are going to be from beta readers. So maybe try someone on a one off basis and then if you really like the way they respond to your work in the kinds of comments they give you, then maybe at that point work to setting up a longer term relationship with them.

I think it's wonderful advice because if you're going to take the time and make commitments to them as well, everyone should feel really good about it. I wanted to offer one little tip about how you can provide effective and efficient feedback. I love to use Loom and I know that's something, you know, you and I have used. So the Loom video app is a great way to, you know, basically you share the document on the screen, you hit record and you could walk through the areas where we see possibilities for improvement thing areas where you got stumped, et cetera. And it's kind of like the comments feature, but depending on how you process information and give prefer to give feedback. It's very efficient way of giving It a first pass and talking about first impressions.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's a great idea.

Yeah. And it. You hit stop, and you don't have to worry about saving the video, uploading it somewhere. No, automatically. It takes a few seconds to process. Then you can name it, click the link which copies it to your clipboard, and then paste it in an email to this person. Here are my thoughts. Here's my feedback. The other thing I would say, and this is a little bit controversial, but about three years into my freelance copywriting business, I realized, you know what? I am not the best editor and definitely not a good proofreader. In spending more time and effort and energy. Back to this point, trying to make it perfect is counterproductive. I didn't have a group of beta readers, so I decided I want to charge enough for my work that I can afford to hire an editor and use that person as part of my process.

Great idea. Great idea.

And so I'm talking specifically here to, you know, commercial writers, content writers, copywriters. Now, you do have to change some things. You have to start charging more. Okay. Because that eats into your profit. But it's a cost of doing business, cost of producing great work. And two, you have to allow for that time. You know, you can no longer finish an hour before the deadline.

Yeah.

So it does change some things. But when I did that, Daphne, I found my business got so much easier and much more pleasant because then I had somebody who does what they do, and they do it so well, and then I took it to where I could take it. They take it to the finish line.

Yes. Yeah, that's a really great idea. And, you know, the other terrific thing about that concept is it forced you to finish early. So therefore, you're not in the situation of writing something the night before it's due, which takes a level of pain off of your back, for sure.

Oh, gosh, yes. Yes. All right, so let's talk about the final. I know there are more mistakes, but the final, most common mistake you see.

Out there with editing, well, this relates to people never knowing whether they've done a good enough job. And, you know, the thing I would say about that is you need to have your process, and you can put it onto a checklist, and every time you have a check beside every item on the list, you've done the best you can do. It's not your job to make something perfect. No one can expect any more of us than the best we can do. And it's foolish to expect more of that from Yourself, it's just not realistic. So get your process, have your list of things you're going to do that are part of your editing. One thing I would say is I'm a big believer in using software for editing. Software is very, very helpful for editing. There is lots of free stuff on the Internet. The most popular piece of software is generally Grammarly, but I don't like Grammarly very much. The one I prefer is ProWritingAid, and it's a lot less expensive than Grammarly and I think it does a better job. So anyways, whatever you do, choose a piece of software to help you to help do some of the boring, sloggy stuff, you know, like looking for passive voice. Software can do that way better than you can.

Yes, great point.

Have it do it for you. Don't make your own life miserable. You don't need to do that.

It takes so much that that's energy you can expend somewhere else. That takes up more energy than we realize, doesn't it? You know, finding. I call it tier one and tier two. Right. It's like customer support. They always have tier one and tier two. That's the least expensive. Yeah, it's usually unfortunately online or the chat feature when you're calling somewhere. But I love that idea because if I can take that, that's many times 50% of what I need to fix.

Yes, yes, it is. And you know, most people find it kind of fun to be responding to software. It's not as embarrassing as responding to a real life person who might be inclined to say something like, don't you know, you shouldn't be using so much passive voice. I mean, most editors probably aren't foolish enough to say something like that, but you end up feeling self criticized. But if it's just from a computer, how can you feel criticized by a computer? So the computer tells you this and you decide what you're going to do about it. It's a very easy way to dramatically improve the quality of your writing.

I think that's wonderful. Great advice. So, all right, so here's what I have down, just to recap, Daphne, the biggest mistakes. Writers try to do it too soon, too soon. After the writing, they don't have a process for editing. The edit they do is there to please themselves or trying to please themselves. Instead of thinking of the audience, they don't know who to stop themselves from feeling daunted.

I think that should be how to stop.

How. Okay, wait a minute. I was like, I need an editor. Yeah, how to stop themselves from Being daunted. And it can be very daunted and depending on your personality, it could really just bring you down and not knowing if you've done a good job. I mean if the goal posts aren't set, they're going to keep moving. They're going to keep moving. I love the idea of creating an sop, a checklist, a standardized operating procedure that you take out of a drawer and just go through everything. A pre flight checklist. Make sure cover all these points. It seems silly but every time I say that and I use some of my SOPs, I don't know how I could do it without them. It's important. Pilots, pilots have to use them.

I know, I know. You know, I have a little checklist for myself every morning and then a shutdown checklist for every afternoon when I'm finished. And I've been using the same checklist for the last 15 years. And some days I'm still surprised by the item upon it.

But we forget it's a lot of things and at the end of the day especially, yeah, your brain's kind of ready for a break. So you have a course on editing that recently came out. Tell us a little bit about that.

So I have an online course called Masterful Editing and it's a 21 day program that designed to teach people the individual steps that they need to go through as part of their own editing process. It's taught in a very. What's the word? I want, I guess controlled and slow, easy to digest way so that you can really learn the various steps you need to take. I don't use 21 days to suggest it should take a minimum of 21 days to edit anything. That's not true. But I teach each step separately and so that people can really learn how to do it and feel confident in having those skills.

That's excellent. And because it's 21 days, you're running through it, right? You're there running through this, work with everybody. So you run a cohort only certain times of the year. I don't think you're running it right now.

No, no, I'm not running it right now. And I'm not sure when I'll be running it again next. But if anyone is interested on in finding out more about that, I think I'd suggest that they go to my website, which is www.profitcoach.com and sign up for my free weekly newsletter. And if you do that, you'll get a little video on how to deal with writer's block. And at the same time you'll also be notified by email the next time this course is available.

Yeah, and I'm gonna put a plug in for your newsletter because two things. First of all, the video is really cool. Very helpful. I don't have too much trouble with writer's block, but you offered some great ideas in there that I thought were very practical and I hadn't really thought of. Number one. Number two is your newsletter is fantastic. Got all kinds of tips and ideas. Very practical. You're a no nonsense kind of person. So that in and of itself is really valuable just to have that every week. So definitely check it out guys and then you'll be notified next time Daphne runs it. Daphne, thanks again for for coming on Number three. Number three visit.

Thanks so much Ed. Great to talk to you again.

Likewise. Well, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a quick reminder to grab your free copy of my latest book, Earn More in Less Time the Proven Mindset, Strategies and Actions to Prosper as a Freelance Writer. You can get your free copy@b2b launcher.com where you will also find the detailed show notes to this and all my other episodes. Enjoy and have a great day.