#337: Austin L. Church on Money Mindset, Living Well and Using Pricing as a Key Lever for Financi...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With well over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries. You know, we truly don't talk enough about money and prosperity in the freelancing community. And I think that's too bad because the more we talk about this issue in positive and productive ways, the greater the chances our businesses will succeed. I mean, can you imagine companies like Microsoft or Apple, Walmart, Ford Motor Co. Ignoring money discussions and decisions internally? Just refusing to talk about this stuff, to think about it, to plan, to dissect, to analyze it would spell disaster for those businesses. Many solo professionals avoid the topic of money because they were raised to believe that money is a taboo topic or because of other long held beliefs about money that no longer serve them and perhaps never even had. But maybe they're overwhelmed. Maybe it's just an issue of not being sure where or how to even start to address the issue of earning more and earning more consistently or keeping more of what they earn or giving more to causes they care about and having the ability to do that well. In this week's episode, we're going to address it. I'm joined by my good friend Austin L. Church, founder of Freelance Cake. He's also a freelance marketing strategist and copywriter and author of the brand new book Free Money 9 Counterintuitive Moves for Life Changing Freelance Income. And in this discussion, we dive deep into the topic of financial prosperity and how to achieve it. Among other things, we discuss where our beliefs about money come from. Not Austin and me necessarily, but just to all of us in general in Western society. Where do they come from? How are we conditioned to believe these things? Why most of these beliefs don't serve us? How we can achieve real and lasting financial success As a self employed professional, why are pricing is a key lever to getting there? Why reaching financial prosperity is about much more than just about making more money. And finally, we wrap up with Austin's thoughts on the future of freelancing. This episode is packed with lots of useful ideas in what I found to be some very powerful reframing. I think you're really going to enjoy it. Austin. Welcome back my friend.

It is always such a joy to be with you.

Ed.

Yeah, likewise Likewise. I think this is your third time on the show. If I.

You've had me back. I don't know what that says about you. You've had me back.

I think there's only a few people who have been here three times and it's not like, you know, it's some kind of a lead group or anything. It's just that I like to have a lot of variety and a lot of different viewpoints. So that's why I don't want to bring, you know, people back seven, eight times. Not that you can't come back, but yeah, I like different points of view and I want to make sure we cast a wide net. Anyway, I'm excited to have you back. Always love our conversations and in fact we started talking before hitting record and I told you, look, man, we got to start capturing this, like, you know, can you save some of that? Let's bottle it and let's capture it during the conversation. I, I know when you've come on the show before, you given us a little bit of the origin story, but for those listeners who don't know about you, why don't you give us kind of a quick rundown of who you are, where you came from and what you do these days?

Sure. So I started freelancing involuntarily back in April 2009 when I got laid off from my job during the Great Recession. So all of you listening, who had to quit a job and you know, you picked yourselves, you had more courage than I did. I have never become an employee again. That's not to say that's off the table forever, but like many of you, I got a taste of setting my own schedule. Freedom, flexibility, autonomy, and have loved it. And being independent has afforded my family and me the lifestyle that we love. And that's one of the reasons I've stayed a freelancer all these years. I will say that one thing kind of led to another. There have been a bunch of misadventures and detours and, you know, side ventures along the way. So very quickly I created a portfolio of iOS and Android apps and sold it. Co founded and invested $25,000 in a tech startup. And I did that for four years. I had an agency for a while. You know, most recently I've been a fractional cmo, so part time marketing leader. And I have three to four of those engagements every month. And then I'm also a business coach and so I have a group coaching program and I'm an author. I've written a book about pricing and money mindset for freelancers and consultants. And so Throughline, over the last 15 years of my career, has been selling my expertise and skills and trying to design a lifestyle. I really love trying to.

Well, you've had a big influence on my thinking around that. You know, I was doing a lot of what you talk about unknowingly for a long, long time. And it wasn't until we met that you gave it some shape and you helped me define some things that I was thinking and you helped me actually even improve them. And I know you've had a big influence in the marketplace and getting freelance creative professionals to think differently about their value and to get compensated well for that value. And in fact, that I'd like to focus our conversation today on something you mentioned related to this, which is lifestyle. I think a lot of people go solo. In fact, I don't think I know because of the freedom and flexibility that it gives them, not necessarily because it can provide them with a great living, a great income. I mean, that's kind of a secondary goal. They want to be able to live well. But I think the biggest driver is that freedom and flexibility. And what I'd like to talk about today is, hey, let's not forget about the fact that what we do can help us live really, really well in the world and provide us a very strong, stable income. So I want to kind of focus on that. And I know that you talk about this quite a bit, especially in your new book, that pricing is one of the biggest levers to enable that. Can you expand on that a little bit? And why the strong focus on pricing in terms of being able to earn a better income?

Sure. So we live in a modern society where money is required to live, we cannot barter, and most of us make it to adulthood with very little education in financial literacy. And then when you become an entrepreneur, whether you meant to or not, because you're a freelancer consultant, well, by default, you're a small business owner. And you may also be very entrepreneurial. Well, you suddenly find yourself with this business model, but not necessarily having this core competency with pricing. Like, none of us ever has a class on how to make money as a writer.

Right.

You may take creative writing courses or you may take a class in like African literature or Shakespeare or whatever. But where is the class on, well, here's how you price a creative project that involves writing. We don't ever have that class.

Right.

And so when I was sort of pushed forcibly out of the 9 to 5 nest back in 2009, I did what many of us do, which is I just chose a number out of thin air. So going back to that word lifestyle, what I found the following April, when tax season came around, was that just blindly imitating someone else with pricing or just picking a model that was a popular model for me, that was charging hourly, that resulted in a really big tax bill, which was a punch to the gut because I had worked so hard and had finally saved up a little emergency fund. And that emergency fund got wiped out because now I had to pay all these taxes. Well, taxes are a reality of life. I get that. So using your pricing as a freelancer to bankroll the lifestyle you want should factor in such realities, right? And so just to touch on two things I mentioned, we make a mistake when we copy other freelancers instead of starting with the lifestyle we want or starting even beyond that, starting with, like, your current monthly needs, your immediate needs. Right? That's mistake number one. And then mistake number two is when you're setting your prices, you're not accounting for things like taxes or you're not accounting for things like, doesn't life always come with curveballs? Like, the most predictable thing in life, or you could say in personal finance is curveballs. So do your freelance prices have enough padding in them to kind of absorb the punches or the shock or the curveballs of the mixing metaphors. But, like, are your prices accommodating for, you know, those extra expenses that are bound to happen? Car repairs.

Right.

Medical bills, like the chance to go on a really cool trip last minute. So that's one of the places that I start with pricing is saying, let's start with the life you already have. How much does it just cost you to live every month and to run a business every month? And I call that your survival number. It's one of the seven numbers I help people pinpoint in the book. So start with what you need each month simply to not go into debt. Personal expenses, business expenses, and taxes. You start there, and you can back the second number, which is a survival rate, out of your annual survival number. And that's like the baseline, right. So that your prices actually make sense for your life instead of you making the mistake. Not you, Ed, but like, whoever's listening, instead of freelancers and consultants making the mistake that I made early on, which is picking a pricing model that painted me into a corner, and then not making enough money to actually live a decent life. So that's one of the reasons I wrote the book, is I'm Like, I want to change that. Like, I don't want so many other people who lacked the same financial literacy that I lacked and lacked the training and pricing that I lacked. What if we can correct that problem and just kind of help the next wave of freelancers set what I call smart, strategic prices?

I am very surprised at how little we talk about this in our communities as freelance creatives. And when I talk to coaching clients about it, when I talk to my audience about it, the response is really flat, which is heartbreaking because this is one of the most important levers for success. When I say this, I'm talking about not just pricing, but financial literacy, financial strategy for your business. I mean, when you think about it, if you don't get this right, nothing else really matters because you're not going to have a sustainable business. So to me, right, it's like being a really good cfo, chief financial officer for your business is one of the most important things you could ever do. But I find that a lot of creatives, especially writers, like, they're not really interested. Everyone wants to know, okay, great, how do I land more clients? You know, do you find the same thing?

Oh, 100%. Like, there's a whole chapter in the book devoted to how we form beliefs about money and just makes a simple observation that we can't outperform our beliefs. And also, I delve into, why is there this sort of gag order around talking openly about money? A lot of us grew up in households where money wasn't talked about openly, and when it was, those conversations are charged with fear and anxiety or embarrassment. So a lot of us come into adulthood with these backpacks full of heavy beliefs, and we don't even understand that other people are telling themselves an entirely different story that empowers them to go make whatever money they want to make. And here's the thing. A lot of us would love to give away more money. We would love to be more generous. And I've met very, very few freelance writers, specifically, who don't have really lovely dreams about what they would do with extra money if they had it. So most everyone I've ever spoken with secretly wants more money, but for a variety of reasons. Beliefs like cultural programming, you know, what they heard their parents say about a wealthy relative when they were nine years old. All that stuff kind of dogpiles this desire for more money. And we actually don't give ourselves permission to just vocalize that desire openly. And if we were to just say aloud, I want more money, guess what? Then we could go about, like, raising our financial literacy. It's sort of like saying, hey, I want to lose weight, and then realizing, well, I can look at fitness, I can look at diet. I can look at lifestyle choices and habits. Like, as soon as you give yourself permission to want something, like, you can figure that thing out. Like, all of us have already figured out things that are harder than financial literacy. But until you give yourself permission to want more money, you're just not going to prioritize learning about money, how it works, how to make more of it. And then, ironically, the people I know who know the most about money seem to think about it the least. It's like, you learn about money so that you can put it into its proper place. Because it's never about the money. It's always about what the money symbolizes. Like, hey, I want to be able to take my father to the Biltmore, and money's I can pay for everything. Or, hey, I want to send my kids to a private school. Or, hey, I want to give a lot of money to my church, or, I want to help out a friend. Like, it's beautiful what you can do with this tool called money if you have an abundance of it. But all of that presupposes that you've sorted out your own relationship with money and that that relationship isn't characterized by shame, embarrassment, ignorance. I don't mean that word to be ugly, but just like, you just don't know about money. And freelance writers are like most of us in that they want the things that money represents and yet haven't allowed themselves to commit to some degree of mastery over it. So that's a definite, yes, definite agreement with what you just said.

I want to definitely get a little tactical in a minute, but before we do, you made a really good point here. You know, let's address it. So you're shining a spotlight on this is, do you have a practical tool or tactic that could help people kind of unpack the way they were brought up to think about money? Just, you know, so it's not kind of this ugly thing. And now I recognize it because I feel like if you don't address it, Austin, it will keep coming up. You know what I'm saying? Like, recognizing it is one thing which is good. That's positive momentum. But is there a tool, a tactic, some kind of journal prompt to start unpacking it that could help someone kind of start recognizing how they've thought about this for a long time?

Great question. So you mentioned journaling one of the journaling prompts is what do I believe about money? The next one is what experiences and moments produced those beliefs. Can I trace them back? Right, so I'll tell one very quick story. I won't push any one of my family under the bus, but I was listening to a couple of members of my family discuss family friends and say, quote, what they waste each year we could live on, end quote. And that shaped me. I mean, maybe I was eight, maybe I was nine. I did not even realize that I was through osmosis taking this in. But there was this belief that affluent people, that wealthy people are wasteful. Did that belief form logically? Well, no. This was just these family members were perceiving someone else's choices. Doesn't even mean their perception was accurate. So, like, my own belief was several degrees removed from a set of events. And the story that my family members were telling about this set of events may have been accurate or not, but regardless, it's simply not true that everyone who's wealthy or affluent is wasteful. So it's important to figure out what your beliefs are just by asking yourself, what do I believe about money? Look back at formative moments and events and then look for counter examples. So, like, you could say, well, you know, everyone who is wealthy wastes a lot of money. You're like, can I find examples of wealthy people who are actually pretty thrifty and then give a lot of money away? Well, yeah. So it's important to say what else is equally true or more true? And this is how we upgrade any belief, right? Carl Jung talks about making the unconscious conscious only by making the unconscious consciousness. Basically putting out, like, so many figurines or toys on the table, your beliefs, like, put them on the table. And it's only once you make the unconscious can you examine it and say, is another belief or another story as true or more true? And would another story actually serve me better? Would another belief serve me better? And I've found those, like, counter examples, like proactively finding other people who just don't fit the assumption that you carry it around unconsciously. Finding those counter examples is how you begin that upgrade process, right? And I honestly think this can take a while because a lot of this stuff goes deep, right? And we don't just get it from our families. Like there is this sort of coin purse of cultural axioms that we take for granted. Like, one of them is, pigs don't fly right? Now, pretty sure that, like, gravity is a thing, right? And I'm pretty sure that pigs don't have wings. But we take other axioms, like another day, another dollar, which says, well, you're always trading time for money.

You need money to make money.

Yes. Takes money to make, like. So we lump together all of these cultural axioms. Some of them are incontrovertible. It's true that pigs don't fly, but is it true that, you know, like, an honest day's work?

Right.

Okay. That assumes that, like, any honest labor or any honest work had to be laborious. So there are, like, these shadings of belief that we pick up from these cultural sayings and the opposites, we tend to believe them, too, without ever rationally examining them and saying, so if I was able to make great money doing work that didn't feel like labor, and it didn't take me very long, I must have been doing something wrong. I must be taking advantage of someone. Someone else must stand to lose if I gain. There's a defined pie, and if I have a bigger slice of it, someone else must necessarily have a smaller slice. We call that fixed mindset or scarcity mindset. It's not actually true because I've found that some of my clients, when I charge them more, they are more satisfied with my work, with my contribution, because they value my work product more.

Right.

So without going too deep into all the psychology, the way that you upgrade your beliefs starts with knowing what you actually believe and then looking for alternate beliefs. And I do think it helps to have an open conversation with another freelancer, with a coach like me or like Ed, because I talk to freelancers all the time who just feel guilty about making more money. They want to make more money. They feel guilty. If we unpack that guilt a little bit, they're like, wow. Like, if I can pinpoint where the guilt came from and I can dismantle it, a lot of it I can actually move past because that guilt was put on me by other people.

Right.

I had this one coaching client. She was worried about raising her prices because she knew what her dad made growing up, and she didn't know how she felt by making more on a single project than her dad made an entire year. Why should what her dad made have anything to do with her charging a fair price for the value that she creates? Come on. Human beings are crazy. We're all crazy.

Right?

All this stuff isn't logical. So you have to subject beliefs to a logical process in order to make the unconscious conscious and begin moving past some of this stuff. And one final thing, if that's okay.

Yeah.

People who are worried about being greedy are in no danger of becoming greedy. Money is an amplifier or intensifier. Like age, pain, fatigue, power, status. There are things that amplify what is already inside of you. So my grandmother, who's in her late 80s, was a sweet and delightful human when she was young. Age has only amplified that. People who are cranky in their 30s and 40s, guess what's going to happen as they get older, that becomes amplified. So the people who are worried that more money might actually, like, change me, like money doesn't change people. It just highlights the greed that was already there. It highlights self centeredness already there.

It's the saying that money only makes you, you know, only amplifies the person who you really are, who you already are.

Right?

Yeah. And this is why people who win the lotto, I think only 11% still have wealth. After 20 or 30 years, 89% lose it. And that's because these are people who didn't, you know, they hadn't grown inside to match that level of financial wealth.

And then meanwhile, and I go into this quite a bit in the book where I just kind of break down the three different skills. Like we have three different skill sets, I should say. You have the set of skills that helps you make money. You have the set of skills that helps you manage and keep money. And then there's a set of skills required to grow money. So the make, keep, grow all three of those distinct skill sets. If you're one of those people who wants more money and yet you aren't able to quite admit that to yourself or to other people, well, you're not going to go acquire any of those three skill sets. Meanwhile, you have people out there who make less money than you do, who are growing the money they do have because they gained some financial literacy, they acquired the skill set. It's like, okay, maybe I'm only able to, you know, save for long term, $600 a month. Okay, well, if you do that for 30 or 40 years, that becomes something. So it's important to again, find counter examples. There are people who make a lot less money than you do, who manage to keep and grow that money. Why? It has very little to do with the nature of money itself and more to do with a set of skills that any of us can acquire if we give ourselves permission to.

I wanted to highlight two things that you mentioned through some examples. One is, you know, the whole. Can you find some role models of very wealthy individuals who actually don't waste very much? And I'll Give you two right off the bat because I look for these things. Warren Buffett still lives in the house he and his wife bought in the 1950s. This is a man who's wore a. About a hundred billion dollars.

Seventh wealthiest person in the world and seventh.

Yeah, there you go.

Living in this little house in what, Omaha?

Omaha. Omaha, Nebraska. Yeah, from the, you know, he bought in the 50s. And then take a look at Elon Musk, the last I heard, richest man in the world. He rents a house.

He's done.

He's like, I don't need to. Like, I'm just gonna.

There's a problem with the H Vac. I need somebody over here.

It's falling apart, but at least I don't have to, you know, mow my lawn. So that's one thing. The other thing is I've noticed that in many Western cultures, I. I can't speak for too many. I can speak for the U.S. there's a very strong Puritan mindset of what you talked about earlier, about working really hard, and if you didn't have to work really hard for it, it wasn't deserved. And I want to trace it. This is my opinion, I want to trace it to the Puritan and Christian roots because I feel that that served a purpose a long time ago. But it's one of those things that we have carried over from a time when it was valid and we still use it today. Kind of the fight or flight thing. You know, many of us are walking through life as if there's a saber tooth tiger behind a bush, and we.

Don'T live in that world anymore anytime.

Exactly. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. We've carried over that conditioning from, you know, hundreds of years ago, and it no longer serves us. So I'm with you, man. I think a lot of it really has to do with our upbringing. And our upbringing, you know, has to do with the environment and the condition that our parents had, you know, from their growing up, from their grandparents and so on and so forth. So this has been carried through. So, yeah, I'm. I'm with you.

Two things to tease out there. One, you know, you go, in the Christian New Testament, I think it's first Peter, there's this one verse that has gotten mistranslated and it kind of leaked into our cultural consciousness. Money is the root of all evil.

Yeah.

It doesn't say that. If you go back, what it really says is love of money, you know, essentially produces many kinds of evil. But if you Put, like, a stack of bills on a table and then you walked past it. Is it gonna, like, leap off the table and, like, go for your jugular? Money is a tool. And like any tool, or we'll call it a sword, it cuts both ways.

Right.

You can do surgery. It can save someone's life. You can also injure yourself. So, like, so many of our unhealthy attachments, we can do that with exercise. There are people who have an unhealthy attachment to exercise. There are some of the other culprits.

Right?

Like sex and food and stimulants and depressants and prescription drugs. Certain relationships.

Right.

Some relationships, very, very healthy. Then there are codependent and toxic relationships.

Right.

Money isn't the root of all evil. Well, guess who is at the heart of all of these sort of interactions and entanglements. People.

Right.

Yeah.

So again, money brings out of you what's already there. And then second thing, and then we probably can move on. I know you have other things you want to talk about, but those of us with a background in the arts or liberal arts get a lot of negative reinforcement from the artists in our lives. Like, I came out of a master's program in creative writing thinking that I was, like, bastardizing my talent if I used it to make money. That, like, I needed to be, like, committed to pure artistic expression and that I was going to compromise my artistic integrity if I used my writing skills in service of mammon, you know, to, like, ooh, perish the thought that I would actually go into the business world, dismantle that whole idea of art versus, like, dichotomy of art versus commerce in the book. Because, first of all, totally bogus. But second of all, if you were to unpeel a lot of that stuff that, you know, other people have put on you, do you truly, truly believe that if something makes money, then that makes it less artistic anyway, we can move on. But I'm just like, this is complex. It's emotional. It's highly personal. Money can be a difficult subject. But again, I would just stress, like, I was a money moron. So if I can learn how to raise my financial literacy, I promise you that you can too. Like, I was an idiot. So hear me. Like, you can improve yourself in this area and get better results.

If it makes anyone feel any better, I was a total idiot as well. So two idiots who have, I think.

The blind leading the blind or the one eyed. The one eyed leading the blind.

Right?

Yes, we've both opened one eye.

I'm with you. I'm with you. I think you know where I got really good at earning more before I got good at keeping more.

Yeah.

So going back to what you said earlier, I do want to though talk a little bit about earning more and I'd like to get into pricing and how that leverage and why it's so important. And you know, maybe you can share a couple of tactics or ideas with us from a pricing standpoint just so folks can understand how you can positively impact your income just by focusing on pricing.

So I love that you chose this word lever because I 100% think that pricing is a lever that you can pull and like it's a force multiplier. It gives you better results with relatively little effort. So I mentioned earlier that I think people should start in terms of tactics with knowing what they need to make across the year, that survival number. Also think you need to have a realistic idea of how many weeks in the year you expect to work, how many hours in a week you expect to work and how many of those hours you can realistically expect to bill to clients. Because we're not all going to bill 50 hours every single week or even 40 or even 30. And I just don't think it's realistic to base your prices on a 40 hour work week with like 90% of those hours going like you passing that cost onto the client.

Right.

You're billing clients for those hours. You have to start with honest numbers. And for me, those honest numbers are like in an average week I might be able to bill a client for between like 18 and 28. So maybe it's like realistically around 24 to 25 hours a week that I'm going to work more hours. But some of those hours are going to be spent on admin or marketing.

Right?

Like that's another sort of variable like paying taxes where too many freelancers just don't leave enough time for marketing. So with in terms of tactics, know what your survival number is, know what your true availability is in terms of how many hours you can realistically expect to bill in a typical week. Those two numbers help you come up with a survival rate, meaning whether I charge hourly or a flat fee, I cannot make less than this per hour or I get myself into trouble. Now don't stop there because the leverage comes in when you think about your dream rate. Like, yes, you have your survival number across a year. Here's what I have to make so I don't go into debt and get myself into financial trouble. But none of us Starts freelancing because we're satisfied with scraping by. What is the number above the survival number that represents definitive progress toward your lifestyle and financial goals? So if you take your dream number and you go back to that true availability, and you divide your true availability into your dream number, then you come up with a dream rate. And the dream rate is what I recommend that you use to calculate project prices. So one of the biggest levers that we as freelancers and consultants have is that dream rate. Because then no matter what the project is, if you know, here's what I want my effective hourly rate to be at the end of the project, after the smoke clears, after the files are delivered, after the project is over, the engagement is wrapped up. If I were to look at all of the time I invested, beginning to end, Divide that into my project fee. What did I make per hour? You want that to equal your dream rate, right? If you don't know what your dream rate is, then you can't use your dream rate to calculate your prices. But couple more tactics and then, Ed, I'm sure you've got some ideas. I call it pessimistic pricing. Don't ever set a price that that assumes the client will be on their best behavior during the project. I mentioned how financially, like, nothing is more predictable than curveballs. Well, like, how many of your projects have ever gone exactly as planned? And yet when it comes time to say one. Yeah, one. One out of hundreds.

Right?

It's like.0001%. So pessimistic pricing is like, okay, fine. My prices will assume that my clients will be on their worst behavior, not because they're bad people, but because life happens and the client goes dark mid project. Then three weeks later they come back and it takes you an hour to refamiliarize yourself with the project. You wouldn't have lost that hour if they had just given you feedback when you first asked for it. Like this stuff happens. So build a buffer of at least 20% extra into your price. So once you use your dream rate to calculate your project price, go ahead and add another 20% on top of that. That way, if the project goes exactly as planned. Wonderful. You just made that much more extra money. If the project doesn't go exactly as planned, which is more common, well, you are in a position. You have a cushion to absorb a few of those little change requests and do it with a smile on your face without having to go back to the client and have that awkward conversation and say, hey, I misquoted. Is it okay if I Charge you more.

Oops.

Right.

I think it's David C. Baker, but it may have been Alan Weiss. Two of my favorite books are the Business of Expertise by David C. Baker and Million Dollar Consulting by Alan Weiss. In one of them, I think it's Baker. So let's say Baker says, charge your clients enough or so much that you won't get frustrated with them. And in my mind, that's what pessimistic pricing is all about. Hey, I already built a buffer into this price. So if there are some pickups, no problem. And guess what? Then the client was like, oh, Austin, he was so easy to work with. He didn't complain. He didn't get weird, like. And it was because I had a smile on my face because I gave the project a pessimistic price final one, change those zeros to a 2, 5 or a 7 5, ideally higher. So if you were about to charge a thousand bucks for an article, charge 975 instead. 975 seems less arbitrary. Or if you were about to charge 1500 for a writing project for, like a white paper, charge 1625 instead. Price sensitivity is a real thing, but there are very, very, very few clients who have 1500 dollars don't also have $1625. So the weird price, the weirdly precise price makes your price more believable, makes it seamless, arbitrary. It's so specific that it's hard to argue with. And I'm telling you, those extra increments of 25, 75, 125, those add up across a year. So weirdly precise prices give you a raise in a way that is highly unlikely to ever cost you a price project. Meaning if you charge 1625 rather than 1500, person who is willing to pay 1500 isn't going to be like, well, 1625 is too much. I'm out of here. I'm going to find someone who's cheaper. No. Like, they've already got time invested. They're going to say, yes, $125 is probably a lot more money to you than it is to them. And again, it strengthens your positioning. So dream rate, pessimistic pricing, weirdly precise number that you add at the very end. All three of those pricing tactics. I mean, shoot, they've made me hundreds of thousands of dollars at this point, and that's why I'm so bullish on them. Ed, what do you think?

Well, I would say to your last point, somebody who says no to 1625 because of the fee would have said no to 1500 anyway. And this is a cognitive fallacy. It truly is, that we think, oh, the we create a negative feedback loop, thinking I overdid it. No, you didn't. What you didn't know or you don't know is would they have said no to 1500? And the chances are very high. I can tell you this from being on the other side of the table, that they would have said no as well. So here's where the danger comes in. If you tell yourself I overshot it, what are you going to do? You're going to tell yourself, next time I need to calm down, I need to be more defensive, play it safe. So you're going to keep doing that. So it's a very dangerous feedback loop that you're creating. Be really, really careful when you get a no. And it's because of pricing. In what conversation, what story, you tell yourself. The other thing, and I agree with you about the charge enough. I actually learned that from my colleague, Gordon Graham. He told me this in passing years ago. He said, ed charge enough for the project, that when things go wrong and, you know, like the curveball issue you mentioned, you're fine with it. And that really stuck with me. So here's how I frame it. Present Ed and future Ed, I love it. I wear all the hats in my business, right? Guess what? Present Ed is charged with marketing and sales. And then guess what? He's leaving. He doesn't have to deal with production, but I got. He left, you know, and by the way, I used to be present Ed. So I was in corporate sales, and that's what we did. So we sold a deal. And then the delivery team implements the software.

It's on you now.

It's up to them. You deal with that. You know, and it wasn't that way, but of course I cared about. But future Ed has now got to do the work, charge a fee or run the number. You're thinking about quoting through the lens of future Ed. What would future Ed be? Grateful you charged. Okay. Or maybe another way to think about it is in a week, when you're neck deep in the project, will future Ed curse your name or will feature Ed want to take you out for a beer.

Well done.

Thank you. And I kind of framing. Yeah, that really helps me because I. I forget about this stuff, too. It's like, whoa, wait a minute. I got future Ed to think of here. So let's be kind to future Ed. He's going to quit. Future Ed's going to Quit if I'm not kind. So I love those ideas.

One thing that I'll throw in, like, a price that you quote is meant to start the conversation and not end it or continue the conversation and not end it. I think so many of us are so averse to negotiation that we will quote a lower price just to avoid pushback.

Right.

Because we're so uncomfortable with it. It causes so much cognitive dissonance. One of my coaching clients, he's a writer, and I was coaching him through the process of putting together a content strategy proposal that was, I think, 3x bigger than anything he had ever done before. And it was for an agency. And the agency came back, and the president of the agency was like, hey, I want to hop on a call with you and talk to you about the price. And he was so nervous. And I said to my client, like, don't be nervous. You're already telling yourself a story about a conversation that hasn't happened. This is an opportunity to learn. And how cool is it that if your price is way off, the president of an agency, like, treat this as a mentoring opportunity, whatever. Anyway, they hop on the call. It turns out their client had changed the budget. They had no issue with his price. They just needed him to find a different price because they didn't have the budget they thought they were going to get. They weren't even trying to negotiate anymore. They just said the max that Ed.

Is now got to do the work, charge a fee, or run the number. You're thinking about quoting through the lens of future Ed. What would future Ed be? Grateful you charged. Okay. Or maybe another way to think about it is in a week when you're neck deep in the project, will future Ed curse your name? Or will future Ed want to take you out for a beer?

Well done.

Thank you. In that kind of framing, yeah, that really helps me because I forget about this stuff, too. It's like, whoa, wait a minute. I got future Ed to think of here. So let's be kind to future Ed. He's going to quit. Future Ed's going to quit if I'm not kind. So I love those ideas.

One thing that I'll throw in, like, a price that you quote is meant to start the conversation and not end it, or continue the conversation and not end it. I think so many of us are so averse to negotiation that we will quote a lower price just to avoid pushback.

Right.

Because we're so uncomfortable with it. It causes so much cognitive dissonance. One of my coaching clients, he's a writer, and I was coaching him through the process of putting together a content strategy proposal that was, I think, 3x bigger than anything he had ever done before. And it was for an agency. And the agency came back, and the president of the agency was like, hey, I want to hop on a call with you and talk to you about the price. And he was so nervous. And I said to my client, like, don't be nervous. You're already telling yourself a story about a conversation that hasn't happened. This is an opportunity to learn. And how cool is it that if your price is way off? The president of an agency, like, treat this as a mentoring opportunity, whatever. Anyway, they hop on the call. It turns out their client had changed the budget. Like, treat this as a mentoring opportunity, whatever. Anyway, they hop on the call. It turns out their client had changed the budget. They had no issue with his price. They just needed him to find a different price because they didn't have the budget. They just. They had no issue with his price, thought they were going to get. They weren't even trying to negotiate anymore. They just said the max that they just needed him to find a different price because they didn't have the budget they thought they were going to get. They weren't even trying to negotiate anymore. They just said, the max that we can do is 2000. Well, guess what? This was still twice as big as any project like, that he had ever sold before. So because he treated the price as a continuation of the conversation rather than as, please don't make me negotiate, suddenly he finds out exactly what their budget is. So keep in mind that if you put a price out there, that makes you a little bit nervous because it's big, Feels big. When the client comes back and says, we don't have that kind of money, you have a very easy response. So write this down. I totally understand budget constraints. What would you like to remove from.

The scope so we can make it work? Yes.

Yes. And we'll meet halfway on that. So then guess what happened with my client on the call. They're like, well, let's remove this from the scope, this from the scope, and this from the scope. That should get us down to 2000. Then my client's like, great, I'll send that. I'll put that into writing, and then they'll be off to the races. Still a massive win for him because he treated the original price he gave. I mean, as much as anything, it's not trying to be provocative, but you're provoking them in a way that they will give you the real price.

Yeah. And then you can have a conversation. I, I talk about, I use the hot potato metaphor. And there's just a lot of uses to the hot potato metaphor. But this is one of them. So they threw a hot potato at you. Here's a deal.

In most creative, in a way that they will give you the real price.

Yeah. And then you can have a conversation. I, I talk about, I use the hot potato metaphor. And there's just a lot of uses to the hot potato metaphor. But this is one of professionals. Just hold on to that hot potato. They burn their hands. There is a big epidemic of burnt hands, you know, in our business. So what you just said is throwing the hot potato back. Okay, great. No problem. I understand budget constraints. What could we remove from the scope to make it work? You just threw the hot potato at them. Very interesting. This is like an NLP thing, I believe, how you can shift and reframe the conversation, but give it direction so notice and people follow. If you make the conversation now about the scope and what needs to be removed, the other party will usually comply. They won't say, no, no, no, let's not talk about that. Let's talk about this other thing. Nobody says that. Right. So you are leading the conversation down the path that, you know, needs to be led in an ethical way. So you think hot potato. There's so many situations where we just hold on to them. Ask yourself, wait a minute. Time out. Did they just throw me a hot potato? And am I holding onto it? How long can I do this before I toss it back? Let's toss it back now.

That's right.

And since the other thing I was gonna say is. Cause you've thrown some great imagery out there that I think will help people remember these things I was taught years ago. Never sell with your wallet something that sounds big to you. You know, if you were the buyer, may sound not just normal and reasonable to somebody else. In some cases, it even sounds too low and it could even create doubt and fear. So don't sell with your wallet. You know, don't ask yourself, if I were in their shoes, what sounds too big? You're not the one in their shoes. You have no idea what kind of budget they're working with. So be careful. Yeah. Stay out of other people's wallets. And that really stuck with me because up until the point I heard that that was a huge part of my pricing process is I would look at the number and ask myself, how do I feel about this? Well, guess What? I would look at my wallet. That would be one of the first things that I would use in that gut check. And that is a huge mistake.

Yeah. I think it's Dan Kennedy who said, you know, when you think about your price and it doesn't almost make you.

Laugh, crack a smile.

Yeah, I forgot. I'm. I'm screwing up the quote. But it's like your price needs to make you laugh or crack a smile. Cause it seems borderline absurd, but it's just such wise advice to say, don't think you know what other people can afford.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'd like to. As we start wrapping it up, I forgot I'm.

I'm screwing up the quote, but it's like your price needs to make you laugh or crack a smile. Cause it seems borderline absurd, but it's just such.

I get your take on something a little different, but it's tied to this, the future of our industry, specifically freelance creative services, freelance writing, content writing, copywriting. Lot of changes.

Wise advice to say, don't think you know what other people can afford. Forward.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'd like to. As we start wrapping it up, we've seen a ton of changes this year. I was looking back at, you know, we're recording this at the end of 2023 and looking back at the year that's just passed. I get your take on something a little different, but it's tied to this. The future. A year ago today. How quaint. How quaint. Pre chat GPT or very early days of that. I was like, what is this noise? Why can't it just shut up about. Of our industry, specifically freelance creative services, freelance writing, content writing, copywriting. Lot of changes. We've seen a ton of changes this year. I was looking back at, you know, we're recording this at that. What is this?

Nothing. How.

How quaint. But that's just one of the things that's changing at the end of 2023 and looking back at the year that's just passed, I'm curious about your take on where you see things, big picture going. Do you feel that there's going to be more opportunity? The same opportunity, less opportunity for people like us?

I think there's more opportunity.

A year ago today. How quaint. How quaint. Pre chatgpt, or very early days of that. I was like, what is this noise? Why can't I just shut up about that? What is this?

Nothing. How.

How quaint. But that's just one of the things.

That'S changing opportunity, especially for those people who commit themselves to a mastery of available tools. It's just like financial literacy.

It's like I'm curious about your take on where you see things big picture.

Like people dumber than you have figured out how to like keep and grow their money. So why not you, right? People dumber than you have, you're going.

Do you feel that there's going to be more opportunity, the same opportunity, less opportunity for people like us?

I think there's more on figured out how to leverage AI and some of the incredible tools out there opportunity, especially for those people who commit themselves to a map to enhance what they're already doing. I do think that more writers especially need to swim up the value stream and think, well, what can AI not do? Like AI is limited of available tools. It's just like financial literacy to the large language models and the data sets that already exist. Like, people dumber than you have figured out how to like keep and grow their money. So why not you, right? People dumber than you have figured out how to leverage AI and some of the incredible tools out there. But AI cannot do is say what are the best ideas that this organization has? Can I be something like an archaeologist and just unearth the ideas and so the ideation the to enhance what they're already doing. I do think that more writers especially need to swim up the value stream and think, well, what can AI not do? Like AI is limited to the large language models and the data sets that already exist. What strategy diagnostic work planning like that's the sort of thing that AI cannot do well and a lot of writers are already accustomed to doing this work. We have to. We're like, hey, I want to do work that I'm proud of, but AI cannot do is say what are the best ideas that this organization has? Can I be something like an archeologist and just unearth the ideas? And so the ideation the. So I need to help my client sharpen their thinking and come up with some good ideas. I need to go analyze what content is already playing well in their market, in their industry and then we're going to iterate and we're going to do more of what's already working. Like we already have to do that strategy diagnostic work planning. Like that's the sort of thing that. But we're just not charging appropriately for it. So leverage the tools, swim up the value stream. You and I are both very gung ho about having an initial strategy planning or diagnostic offer. I also think there's something to be said for I cannot do well. And a lot of writers are already accustomed to doing this work. We have to. We're like, hey, I want to do work that I'm proud of. So I need to help my clients sharpen their thinking and come up with some good ideas. I need to go analyze what content is already playing well in their market, in their industry. And then we're going to iterate learning about your other competencies, aptitudes, personality and character traits. When people hire you, they are not buying your skills, they are not buying a whole person, but they are renting an entire mind and life and we're going to do more of what's already working. Like we already have to do that, but we're just not charging appropriately for it. So leverage the tools, swim up the value stream. You and I are both very gung ho about having an initial strategy, planning or these diverse experiences. So like, when people hire me, they're not paying X number of dollars an hour for my writing skills, right? Cause I can't actually decouple those skills from all the unusual connections I'm able to make in my sense of humor and my ability to break down complex ideas and make them easy diagnostic offer. I also think there's something to be said for learning about your other competencies, aptitudes, personality and character traits. When people hire you, they are not buying your skills. They are not buying a whole to understand, right? So I think final thing is the writers who are going to be not only compelling, competitive, the writers who are going to thrive are going to be the ones who look beyond their skills and beyond high quality work and say, what are my other different person? But they are renting an entire mind and life. I need to bake those into my positioning. And when people hire me, it's because they want to hire all Austin. Yes. I could go get chat, GPT or Byword or any of the other AI tools with these diverse experiences. So like when people hire me, they're not paying X number of dollars an hour for my writing skills, right? Because I can't actually decouple those skills from all the unusual connections I'm able to make. I can do some low level stuff, but they're not gonna uncann my sense of humor and my ability to break down complex ideas and make them easy to understand, right? So I think final thing, understand brand voice the way Austin does, they're not gonna understand how to craft an incredible headline or hook the way Ed does, or they just don't have Ed's empathy or they don't have the expertise in my industry and the nuances of my target audience is the writers who are going to be not only competitive, the writers who are going to thrive are going to be the ones who look beyond their skills and beyond high quality work and say, what are my other differentiate. So bring your whole person into your positioning and you literally have no competitors because you're the only you. I don't know if that's a grammatically correct sentence.

Well, it is mediators.

I need to bake those into my positioning. And when people hire me, it's because they want to hire Austin. Yes.

This episode I'm gonna push back a little bit and then provide part of what I think the answer.

I could go get Chat GPT or Byword or any of the other AI tools. I can do some low level stuff, but they're not going to understand brand voice the way Austin does. They're not going to.

But I'd like your take on it. You know this argument that Chat GPT.

Is not understand how to craft an incredible headline or hook the way Ed.

Does good ideation and ideas. I would actually challenge that. It's become very good at these things at a certain level.

Yeah.

Okay, so I want to play dep.

Or they just don't have Ed's empathy or they don't have the expertise in my industry and the nuances of my.

Target audience advocate here and say, well, actually, Austin, I've been using it for some of that and it's remarkable. And that's scary because now I feel like the writing part is threatened.

So bring your whole person into your positioning.

And now the ideation and strategy part is threatened. So let me give you my take and I, I want you to, you know, maybe counter or maybe share your thoughts.

And you literally have no competitors because you're the only you. I don't know if that's a grammatically correct sentence.

Well, it is in the. It is good at ideation. It can be very good at strategy development and planning. But here are two things that need to happen. One is you need to be really good at feeding it the right raw material, including this episode. I'm going to push back a little bit and then provide part of what I think the answer, the right direction and questions. And two, you have to be really good at this. But I'd like your take on it. You know, this argument that ChatGPT is not good at ideation and ideas. I would actually challenge cerning what it gives you and picking and choosing and combining, deleting, synthesizing, that it's become very good at these things, that information. And this is where I think the competitive advantage is going to be. Of a human. Is something you said at a certain level.

Yeah.

Okay, So I want to play devil's advocate here and say, well, actually, Austin, I've been using it for some of that. In it, empathy, unique experiences and stories. If you run them through those filters, right, Your ability to be empathetic, you're human, run it through the filter of all your life.

Remarkable.

And that's scary because now I feel like the writing part is threatened and now the ideation and strategy part is threatened. So let me give you my take. And life experiences, not just business, everything in your life which is unique to you and I, I want you to, you know, maybe counter or maybe share your thoughts, your stories. Then you were able to take a tool and transform that into real value on the ideation and strategy side. So that's my take. I just didn't want to just, you know, do surface level. Hey, it's not good at ideation, because some people are going to counter that. Your thoughts.

I'm glad you did. When I think about ideation, it is good at ideation.

It can be very good at strategy development and planning. But here are two things that need to happen. One is you need to be really good at feeding it to the right raw material, including the right direction and questions. And two, you have to be really good at.

I actually mean pulling ideas out of clients.

Right.

Like a lot of clients need a thought partner.

Good point.

And they can do that with AI tools, just like you mentioned.

That presupposes that they're learning what it gives you and picking and choosing and combining, deleting, synthesizing that information. And this is where you're good to.

Your point at coming up with the prompts.

When I. I think the competitive advantage is going to be of a human. Is something you said.

Think about ideation, I think think about a dynamic interplay between two people or between me and this tool. As long as I'm putting in good prompts, there are a lot of empathy.

Unique experiences and stories, people, a lot.

Of clients who still want that consultative.

If you run them through those filters. Right. Your ability to be empathetic, you're human, run it through the filter of all your life approach.

And if more writers will take that.

Consultative approach, life experiences, not just business, everything in your life which is unique to you and.

And just pull the best material, the Best stories, the best ideas.

Right.

Like you can't go to Chat GPT and say your stories.

Then you were able to take a tool.

What are my best stories?

Yeah, but if I and transform that into real value on the ideation and strategy side. So that's my take. I just didn't want to just, you know, do surface level. Hey, it's not good at idea.

Go to Ed. And I'm like, hey Ed, let's tell the stories. Only you can tell what should.

Because some people are going to counter that. Your thoughts?

I'm glad you did. When I think about ideation, I actually mean pulling ideas out of clients.

Right?

Like a lot of clients need a thought partner.

Good point.

And they can do that with AI. There have been some of your biggest embarrassment. So that's the dynamic interplay that I'm talking about. Then I can actually take that and say, hey, help me outline a blog post using this AYA tools, just like you mentioned. That presupposes that they're good to your point at coming up with the prompts when I idea. So I think it's a both and not an either. Think about ideation. I think about a dynamic interplay between two people or between me and this tool. As long as I'm putting in good prompts. There are a lot of. And you can use Chat GPT for ideation, but it also makes sense to get really, really good as a facilitator and pulling stuff out of other people, if only so that you can then turn around and use the people. A lot of clients who still want that consultative approach. And if more writers will take that consultative approach, the tools at your disposal to sharpen, improve, iterate them and just pull the best material, the best stories, the best ideas.

Right?

Like you can't go to Chat GPT and say, and you and I have had some like offline exchanges where we're like, hey, check out this cool thing I just did with Chat GPT. So maybe there's something to be said for humility. Cause if you have the humility, you'll go use the tools to the best. What are my best stories? Yeah, but if I go to Ed and I'm like, hey Ed, let's tell the stories only you can tell what that they can be used Again, I don't think that was you'll use the tools effectively. There have been some of your biggest embarrassment. So that's the dynamic interplay that I'm talking about. Then I can actually take that and say, hey, help me outline a blog post using this idea. So I think it's a both and not an either or. And you can use chat GPT for ideation, but it also makes sense to get really, really good as a facilitator and pulling stuff out of other people, if only so that you can then turn around and use the tools at your disposal to sharpen, improve, iterate them. And you and I have had some like offline exchanges where we're like, hey, check out this cool thing I just did with Chat GPT. So maybe there's something to be said for humility because if you have the humility, you'll go use the tools to the best that they can be used. Again, I don't think that was. You'll use the tools effectively and you'll do better work for your clients and you won't be threatened that you're about to lose your job, so to speak, because you're focused on the things that really only you can do. So.

Yeah, and you know, this is maybe not the best. Yeah, I think we are. This is may not be the best analogy, but just hope everyone bears with me with this because I know this could be a sensitive issue. It's almost like, you know, you can do a lot of self therapy by journaling and asking yourself some great questions, just like you can get some.

And you'll do better work for your clients and you won't threaten great ideas.

By going to ChatGPT and giving it some good prompts. But you cannot do as good a job with therapy as you would with a good therapist. It's that interchange, right, that dynamic experience. And that's what I felt you were really honing in on is this idea that it's more than that. It's the combination of all these things where we could really add value. And these tools are just going to be tools. They're going to have their limitations always in terms of that. So I'm with you. I think we're really on the same page there. So, Austin, your book, we've been kind of mentioning it. Why don't you tell us the title a little bit about what it's about and then where people can go check it out and grab a copy.

So the title is free money 9 counterintuitive moves for Life Changing Freelance Income. And you can go to my website, austinlchurch.com for word/free-money-book. I think I'll make sure Ed gets the right link. You can also just go to freelance.com which is my coaching site. And Find the book there. But the first half is the pricing methodology, right? The seven key numbers that I think people need to pinpoint in order to have smart strategic prices. It's a step by step process. So you go through the first part, which is pricing, and it's like, all right, now you've got your pessimistic price with your weirdly precise number on top of that. But it's very different, like knowing what you need to charge and actually going out into the free market and commanding those prices, like actually landing the project. So the second half of the book gets into wayfinding, like what is the money even for? Like, what do you want your life to look like? It gets into money mindset. How do you make the unconscious conscious which limiting beliefs about money are most common to freelancers? And what are some alternate beliefs that may serve you better? Then I get into, I call them vitamins. But it's just how do you like, what are the principles and best practices? How do you like, negotiate and advocate effectively for your needs? Like some people are just better at winning bigger projects than others. Let me give you some of those insights. And then the final chapter is actually there's an FAQ section where I'm like, I think people just need to get some questions answered in a very matter of fact way. So I did that. And then the final chapter is, I call it Victory Lap. It's the pricing process again, but distilled way down. Because guess what? Over the course of your freelance career, you're going to change your prices multiple times. You don't have to reread the whole book, just go to the final chapter. So I'm proud of it. I think it's going to help a lot of people and I certainly hope people who buy it just follow the steps and make life changing income.

I completely agree. So I was fortunate enough to have read an early review copy of the book. And guys, I gotta tell you, top notch, this belongs on your bookshelf. Even better than that, this belongs next to your reading chair. And it's something everyone needs to read and implement. Strongly recommended. And not just because Austin is my friend. Truly is an amazing piece of work. So Austin, I know you spent many months working on it and it shows. It totally shows. So Ben, again, thanks for coming on for the third time. I appreciate you. Austin. This has been a great conversation. I think a lot of people will agree we went a little bit longer than we usually do, but that's just because we have a lot of good stuff to talk about. And you have some great ideas. So thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having me. It is always a pleasure.

Well, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a quick reminder to grab your free copy of my latest book, Earn More in Less Time the Proven Mindset, Strategies and Actions to Prosper as a Freelance writer. You can get your free copy@b2b launcher.com or you will also find the detail show notes to this and all my other other episodes. Enjoy and have a great day.