#340: Ed Gandia and Sarah Greesonbach Get Raw and Real About Their Inner Battles, Fears, Aspirati...

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With well over 1 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries, this episode is very different from what I typically do on this show. It's a candid conversation between Sarah Griesenbach and me on a number of semi random topics. So Sarah is not only A very talented B2B writer, she's also the founder of the B2B Writing Institute. She's an excellent coach to other B2B writers, a coaching client of mine and a friend. We get into a number of topics including where and how we face resistance, ourselves in our businesses, where we fall short, life experiences that shaped who we are today, how we make big decisions, fear and the role of fear in our lives, being kind to yourself, our pet peeves about the freelance industry, about coaching, and even the songs we have on our playlist that we're a little embarrassed to admit to. We talk about what we love and what we feel is overrated. After our interview, I then share a raw and open account of my business struggles last year, what happened, why, and what I've done to navigate these challenges. If you're only looking for straight up advice for your business, I should let you know that this is really not that kind of episode. So feel free to skip it. But if you're curious about Sarah and I have struggled, what we've learned, what makes us who we are, give this one a listen. It's a really good behind the scenes conversation. It's a long episode. In fact, it's the longest of any episode I've created in my 11 years doing this show. But I didn't want to hold back. I wanted this to be exactly the kind of conversation she and I would have at, let's say, a Starbucks. And I wanted you to have an opportunity to listen to us talk with no filter, as if you were there, as if you were a fly on the wall or sitting next to us at Starbucks. So I hope you enjoy it. So let's start here. I'm curious about your younger days, young Sarah, and specifically, what's a formative experience you had as a young person that has shaped you into who you are today.

Well, she was awesome. I'll just say that I think it should be very clear. And her number one hobby was to go out on her bike into the woods with an apple and just read for a couple hours. Which, looking back, I mean, that really defines me now, too, I think, because that's one of the things that I would just love to do, but that I tend to put off. And I think the reason I did that was because I grew up with three older brothers, and so I was trying to get some peace and quiet myself and to not be. I don't know if I was picked on, but, you know, they didn't chase me around and breathe garlic in my face, like, for fun. That was like a sport for them. So I think when I was thinking of formative experiences, that's part of the reason the Enneagram really jumped out to me and has blown my mind the past couple years, is learning about enneagram 8 and stuff, and just how much resistance and themes of survival and rejection showed up because of that relationship I had with my brothers and then my parents. And so when I think of who I was or how I learned to be how I am, I think my ability to do what I want to do or not really have a lot of second thoughts about what I want to do, I think it came from having to survive in that environment. And they've all grown up. They're really nice now. But I could definitely see those themes coming out from my childhood.

I hope they listen to this episode.

Nobody I know listens to anything I do, so I think that's another.

This will be the one. This will be the one.

I've always been comfortable sharing stuff about family because they don't. Like, I could send them a podcast link and they wouldn't be able to, like, open it on their phone. You know, it's not, like, a thing.

So, yeah, like going into the woods with an apple and a book. I mean, it sounds very romantic, right? But metaphorically speaking, I mean, I get it, right? Just having to. Or wanting to get away from that environment. And did you do that for a while? I mean, or was this, like, an occasional thing? Or was this something you did?

Yeah, as soon as I was allowed to cross the street, I was, like, gone.

I hear.

Just building forks and stuff.

Very cool. And was it usually just by yourself, or did you sometimes bring a friend?

Oh, no. Super lonely.

Yeah. You wanted that space. I get it. I get it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

How about you?

So. And by the way, one point of clarification. So Enneagram 8, like, that's you. You're definitely an Enneagram 8. And for those who are familiar with the Enneagram, you'll know a little bit about that. But it's interesting that you picked that story, because the one I picked, I didn't do this on purpose, but it definitely speaks to my Enneagram type, which is the enneagram 3. I had a hard time with this one because there were a few key pivotal moments in my youth that came to mind. But one was I remember clear as day, middle of 10th grade. So in high school, and I'm doing social studies homework. This is. Leaves my memory. And somewhere in the middle of reading that lesson, it hit me. I was a very average student, and the people who were around me were no better than I was no better yet. They were at the top of their class. They were the teacher's pets. They were, you know, the honor societies and involved in all these groups and extracurricular activities. And right there and then, I made a decision that I was not going to play small anymore in school. Like, no, I'm. I'm done with that. I'm. I'm so much better than this. They're no better than me. In fact, I think I'm better than many of them. And, I mean, it's kind of late into the game, but from the middle of 10th grade, I was, you know, a B to C student, and essentially I just went into straight A's with maybe the occasional B. Made National Honor Society my last semester of my senior year of high school. Barely got in. And it's been, you know, kind of. I've been that way ever since. But that was a pivotal moment. There was nothing external. It's not that somebody picked on me that day. It's not that something happened. I just remember in the middle of that homework going, wait a minute. I'm so much better than this. Why? Why am I playing small?

Yeah, I can picture that as a. Wait a second moment.

Yeah.

What do you think brought your awareness to that? Like, what were you focused on before that?

I was lazy. I was just lazy. I wasn't interested in it, you know, lazy and fearful. I think I was playing small. I think laziness was a way for me to stop myself from doing more and doing better. I think we're all naturally lazy. We're here to conserve energy. Right. In every way. But I think I got a little bit envious, too, of, you know, my friends and colleagues who were just getting all these accolades and all these opportunities and being recognized for all these things. And I knew them And I know they weren't any smarter than I was. So they're listening now, which is great. I hope. They are all great people. All great people. I have no resentment. But, yeah, I think I was just mad. I was disappointed with myself. I was mad at myself for just being, you know, fearful, lazy, not trying harder. And I don't know, something must have happened that day. I just don't remember. I just remember it happening. And I remember exactly where I was sitting reading this chapter and just saying, this is gonna change. And I remember it was the middle of my sophomore year, so there you go.

Yeah, I. I really like several things about that, though, because there's that sense that anybody could just decide to change at any moment, and you really can make these important changes. And then, I mean, it could have been like a development thing, like your prefrontal cortex just kind of clicked on at that moment. That's kind of funny.

I must have had some snack that, you know, some nutrient that triggered.

You finally got some vitamin. Yeah. That made it happen for you.

Exactly, Exactly. Cool. I. I like that. And I see that in you as well. And I see, you know, these changes in. In me, too. It's interesting how these experiences. And that's why I picked it. And I'm sure this is why you picked yours. They carry on, right? I mean, you're still going to the woods with that apple in a way, and.

Yeah. Well, that kind of bleeds into the next question. I think in my natural state, I would be in the woods reading for sure. But one of the things that I've had to. That I resist a lot, that I've struggled with a bunch, is taking the time to do things that are just pleasurable and fun. So it's like, if it's not getting me ahead in some way or like a literal chore that I can check off the list, I just won't let myself do it. So reading has been one of my professional development goals of just sitting down and enjoying a book during a workday for, like, two years. And I am finally doing it. So that's great. I really resist it.

We should have probably compared notes before we did this.

Oh, no.

This is going to sound like an echo chamber. I feel the same way. I. I thought that my biggest resistance was things that I don't like to do or I'm not good at. And believe me, I got plenty of that. But I've been shocked over the past year about how much resistance I have to do the things that I can't wait to do or that I love to do. The time comes, I have the time, my schedule is clear, and I find myself procrastinating. What is that? And I have to ask myself, what is behind the procrastination here? I tell you what it is. This is going to come up a couple of times for me in this conversation. I think it's the inner critic. I think my inner critic doesn't want me to do the things that I really get a lot of pleasure out of or that are going to help me grow. Because that's putting myself out there, right? That's breaking new ground, getting new ideas, taking chances, and that is not safe. Right. The inner critic is what your ego uses to keep you safe. And the ego thinks that all there is is you in this life. That's it. And in that context, of course, it needs to keep you safe because there's a limit to everything. So we need to optimize, we need to keep you safe. We need to make sure that you survive. But the higher self goes way beyond all those things, right? So your intuition knows better. You know, your intuition is what the higher self uses, I think, to nudge you into better and bigger things and activities you enjoy and that are going to help you grow and thrive and make you happier and more fulfilled. So there's this constant battle. But the inner critic is the stealthiest little. You know what? Yeah, that's my take. I don't know. What do you resonate with that? Do you think there's something else to it?

It's wild that you ended up with safety. Because what came to mind for me is it's not safe to enjoy yourself or to have fun. And if you do, that's the moment something just horrible is going to happen or you're going to be neglecting something really important. So the only way I've been able to get around that is to set a timer and be like, for the next 10 minutes, it is safe. I'm allowed to read this book. It's going to be fine. And then I start it. If you always had that awareness of the resistance, like, did you always know that something like your inner critic was keeping you from it?

No.

No.

It's been, I would say in the past year or so that I've recognized that before I felt like such a failure because I created the space like there was no reason. And before I knew it, the day was over. And the disappointment that came from that, like, what's wrong with me? Why did I let all these other interruptions and all these other things, and some of them were like, well, that's beyond me. That was somebody else who called me at the last minute, you know, somebody needed help with this, or I had to give somebody a ride or whatever. It could be kid barking me. Yeah. Yeah. I think you attract some of that, you know, I. I really do. I know some people are going to go, whatever. That's outside of your. I think some of that is metaphysically you, you know, creating the conditions that are gonna lead to that. But a lot of it is just you not giving yourself permission.

Yeah.

So I didn't know what it was before. I thought it was external, so I would get really mad with other people. And now I realize that it's me. I have no one else to blame. Yeah, that's. That's hard moment.

Yeah. Oh, there's something really good there. Yeah. You think the hard part is making the time for it, but then you make the time for it and it still doesn't happen. So that's like, what?

Let me do this one thing. I want to get to it. Let me just finish this. And then that thing miraculously leads to this other problem you uncovered. Well, I can't leave this thing, you know, half finished. And I forgot about this other thing. And while I'm thinking about it, let me go ahead and take care of it. The day's gone.

Yeah. Is this fun thing really the best way to spend the 15 minutes I have and then it never seems like it is.

Yeah. I think for people like me, I have to create such strong boundaries that I have no choice, like, take myself somewhere or eliminate all these distractions. Put my phone in a different room in a drawer. I don't know. Do things that might feel a little bit silly sometimes. Extreme. I think that's what it's going to take. For me, I've gotten better. Don't get me wrong. I'm not just not someone who's has no idea what to do. I know what to do. It's just a struggle. Anyway, sorry I cut you off.

Spookily similar. Because I have to pay for it or I won't do it. So that's why.

Oh, in what way?

I sign up for improv class, for art class, for the sauna is a monthly subscription. Massage is a monthly thing. So it's like I have to know that I'm paying for it. And if I don't do it, I'll still have to pay for it. And I still make myself late whenever I go. Like, almost every time I'm rushing to get there. Cause I'm like, trying to sabotage it. It's wild.

Yeah.

Isn't that paying for it has really been helpful.

It's a form of accountability, for sure. So tell me. One of the things that came up for you and me was it's related to this, where we often fall short. I mean, it doesn't have to be about what we just talked about, but areas of your life or specific situations. We feel you fall short.

Well, this comes back to the Enneagram, too. I'm gonna try not to talk about the Enneagram the. The entire time. But I'm actually outrageously self confident, so I don't feel like I fall short a lot. And it's like, I guess to me, falling short means there's some standard and I didn't meet it. And I. I feel like I'm always striving to meet all my standards, so that's never the problem. But I guess the problem is I do fall short of my standards. Oh, my gosh. So I'm learning about myself as we go. And so it's kind of like my capacity for work isn't as much as I want it to be. So the way I fall short is that I can't work as much as I want to.

Okay. Yeah. Interesting.

So maybe I'll get some insight when you answer this. Maybe I didn't answer it right.

Well, all right. So tell me, if you did have more time and more resources, like, how much more would you need? Yeah, but it's a. You know, do the goal posts keep moving? Like, where do they stop?

I don't think so. If I could just not need to sleep, I think I'd be fine.

Okay.

Or rest.

We're coming back to that, so you can be honest.

Oh, no.

Well, okay. Yeah, but where does it end? Because it's like the horizon, right? Like, you will never quite reach the horizon. So I can only get there, you know, way out there in the horizon.

But if I could control everything and freeze it at the moment that it's perfect, that's where I fall short. I can't freeze and control everything.

Got it. Yeah. Which is very much of an enneagram8 thing.

Yeah, it does. It comes full circle. Wow.

Interesting.

So it's almost like the weakness I think I have is not being able to control everything.

Which is both your strength and your weakness.

Right. Okay.

You're in control. But then there's another side of that coin. And then for me, it's kind of my enneagram3 thing, which is. And by the way, I mean, when I came up with this, I didn't say, okay, what would an enneagram3 do? Because that's the wrong. By the way, with any personality type, I'm a big believer. Don't use these things as a crutch. Right. Don't say, well, that's just the way I am. That's the way I'm wired. No, no, no, no. Be honest with yourself and then use these tools as diagnostic tools to help you unpack what's going on. That's the healthy way of doing it. But when I approached it, two things came up. It's interesting you said relationships. For me, I do always feel that I fall short there. I feel like I'd never invest enough in any. All my relationships, but I'm fooling myself. I mean, could I do better? Of course we all could. But I'm always. I have this feeling of guilt all the time, several times a week that I'm not investing in some of my key relationships. So that's one. And then the other one, totally personal, is eating. I. I'm the cook at my house. I love food. I love to eat. I love great food, but I can't eat at all. But I do. Yeah, it. That's a challenge for me for two reasons. Again, I love great food, and I love to cook an amazing meal. The second is I treat eating there too often as a reward. Like to make a great meal. Especially on a weekend when I have more time, it becomes a reward. The problem is too much of a good thing is too much, you know?

Right.

And too much of a reward actually works against you. So again, that achiever mindset of, like, I'm gonna work really, really hard, but then there's just gonna be this thing at the end of the tunnel, this pot, end of the rainbow. And that gets me into trouble. You know, I'm pretty good about exercise, diet. Unless I really put guardrails and controls there. I'm pretty bad because of the way that I think of and treat food just as a reward. And I get so much joy, you know, out of just trying something new, making something special. But because I'm not at a restaurant where they've given me a certain portion.

Right.

Like, let's have a little bit more of that.

So, yeah. How do you figure out how much joy is acceptable in the things that you love before it becomes a problem?

I don't know. I don't know. Well, I think if you put controls or guardrails, I Do know this. The best meals I've ever had have not been home, have been at a restaurant. And I didn't walk away stuffed, you know, like, I walked away feeling great, which tells me that there was a portion control element to it. Spacing the courses and just kind of the environment and what was going on and who I was with. All those factors matter so much. So all that plays into having a truly joyous, memorable, nourishing experience as opposed to. Let's take the other extreme. I'm. I'm not this person, but, you know, kind of going into the pantry and just stuffing your face as fast as you can. Yeah, yeah. So that's obviously terrible. So I feel like sometimes I'm closer to that side of things that I am to the four hour meal that's evenly spaced out and everything about it is just beautiful, if that makes sense.

Well, now I want to know what that meal was.

Well, there've been a few. There's not one that like, you know, surpasses the rest. But I've yet to go to the French Laundry in Napa and, you know, some of the better restaurants since. Yeah, of course, of course. In some of the finer restaurants in New York City and Chicago. But yeah, I. I think it's the awareness is the biggest thing for me. So coming back to you, back to the whole control thing, anything else come to mind?

Yeah, I think when it sinks in, it's kind of like I fall short by having flaws. Yeah, it's like the overall desire to have no flaws. And somehow I think it's reasonable to have no flaws. And then the more I realize how many I do have, it's pretty disappointing. But it's also heartening because we can be great people and do great things even with these flaws. So.

Yeah. And if that's the standard or the goal, I mean, we'll always be disappointed, of course. All right, so turning things around a little bit here, like, sad face. Yeah. Okay, now we're gonna put happy face on it. What is something that gives you hope?

This one I knew right away. And it's. Whenever I see someone younger than me doing something wonderful. Cause I had this really profound experience when I was a teacher. Well, that part sucked. But this one moment when I was a teacher, they asked for volunteers to judge a storytelling, like, arts competition for young kids. And it was like, maybe ninth graders and seventh graders. So people who were. How old is that? And usually my experience with kids is just that they were goofballs and they weren't really trying Very hard at anything. But I walked in and these kids were just, like, poised and in it and doing the dramatic monologues and memorizing stuff, and they really blew me away telling these classic stories. And that just gave me a lot of hope that the next generation is gonna do stuff at all, but then do it really well and maybe even better than I could.

Interesting. Which is really a great thing to say because every generation tends to speak badly of younger generations.

Right.

Like, they don't get it. They're lazy, they're on the wrong path.

Not going to make that mistake. Yeah, that's actually how I won. I guess it's kind of Machiavellian, but I won the French club president spot in high school because I really sucked up to all the upcoming classes. So it's like I just got in really good with all the young ones and made them like me, and then they all voted me in. So I guess I've taken that attitude, like, why you'd cut people off or dismiss what they have to say just because they haven't had the same experiences as you. I think that just a huge mistake.

I agree. Agreed. I still disagree with the whole Venmo thing.

How about you? What gives you hope?

I had a hard time coming up with one thing, so I'm gonna just kind of explain it like this to me. First of all, you need to understand I'm an optimist. You know this about me already, right? I can't help it. Now. I do get mad. I do get discouraged sometimes. I feel like it's hope things are hopeless, you know, especially out there in the world. But I always come back to my thermostat is always set to optimism. So that temperature always comes back. I think human ingenuity and human resilience. So I'm talking more macro here. I just feel like people always find a way, you know, There will always be people out there who will find solutions, who will get us out of a mess, who will do the right thing, and we will come out the other end better off, you know, as a result, which I know is controversial, because right now you could look at the world and maybe people go, I don't see how you can say that right now with everything that's going on. I really believe that when people were given freedom and latitude and encouraged to do their thing, we can solve any problem. We can solve any problem out there, period. So, yeah, we always find a way.

Well, now it's just like a really deep Jurassic park reference. But I agree, life finds A way. Right, the little.

That's right, that's right.

Okay, now I'm the old one.

That's right.

But, yeah, I mean, even just looking around on the Internet, like, let's say, LinkedIn, which is full of nonsense, just every collaboration is a miracle. And it's all stuff that doesn't really have to exist. Even this podcast, like, you just decided to create something and did it for a long time, like that in itself is a miracle just to create something new. So I'm inclined to agree.

We take for granted all the tools that we have today. I mean, if you talk about a podcast, the fact that you can, you know, I'll have an average of about 4,000 downloads per episode from our podcast, which, I mean, it sounds really low to me, because. Depends on how you compare yourself, which is a flaw of mine. But when you think about it, whether it's 500, 5050, it doesn't matter. That means that every time you put something out there, you have from a podcast, which, I mean, it sounds really low to me, because. Depends on how you compare yourself, which is a flaw of mine. But when you think about it, whether it's 500, 5050, it doesn't matter. That means that every time you put something out there, you have that number of people going into a theater and listening to you or watching you speak.

They couldn't even fit in a theater for you. That's like a stadium.

An arena.

An arena.

All right. Pat Flynn said this years ago in one of his podcasts, and that totally reframed it for me. So I'm not telling you this because, you know, it's not about the number. It's the fact that if you put it in that context, that's pretty amazing. 25 years ago, what would it have taken to get 50 people into a meeting room? 500 people, let alone 5,000 50,000. So that's huge. And the fact that you can do this today with just a mic and a little bit of software and a platform that costs $20 a month to syndicate your message, that's pretty cool.

You're blowing my mind. Because that would have been impossible to get that many people in the room, and they would have all had to be in the same physical space at the same time and available. That feels almost impossible.

Yeah. So I think we always find a way. Life finds a way. So let's talk a little bit about frameworks to make decisions, specifically big decisions. This is something that came up. I know you got stuff that you use, so I'm curious to hear when you got something, a big decision in front of you, what do you do? How do you make it? What tools do you use?

Well, I think this is where you're really going to shine, because I don't have a lot and I do. Mainly I send people to your PCRQ matrix. And I realized while I was reflecting on it, I think it's because I tend to make decisions with so much instinct that it's not about how I make the decision. It's more about giving myself enough time to make the decision. So it's like once I sit down and really think or write out whatever the scenario is, and then I have to give myself maybe three days to a week. And it's almost like the sand and with the time thing that you flip upside down, that Princess Jasmine was stuck in hourglass.

Hourglass.

Stuck sand in the hourglass. And you've gotta give it enough time for whichever side to get enough sand so that I just feel like I know what the next decision is. And I. I wouldn't have said I made really instinctual decisions until I sat down to think about it like this. And that's really.

Oh, my gosh, if he said no. Yeah. But if he had said, you don't, I would have corrected you. Because after working with you, you make decisions before I can even respond. You know, it's like, hey, what do you think of this? And it's like, by the time I get back to you, you've already made the decision.

Is done. Yeah, is done. But the value I get from working with you, though, is whenever I can't quite make it or it feels kind of. Even the counsel I can get or the journaling prompts, or how you walk me through one of the frameworks you're about to share that ends up being like a really important tiebreaker when I can't hear my instincts.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Because these frameworks and tools are not about doing it for you. They're about, you gotta do the heavy lifting. And then these things can tip it either way at the end or be a gut check. You know, be kind of one last tool to make sure it's an objective measure. I got several of these, so I'm not gonna bore the audience with them. I do wanna mention two of them. You mentioned pcrq. So that is a Take a sheet of paper divided into four quadrants, and the first two are what almost everybody does. You know, first quadrant is pros, second quadrant is cons. Right. And that's where most people stop. I've added two others. And quadrant three is risks, and quadrant four is questions. So risks are not cons. Very important distinction. Cons are definite negatives. Risks are, well, these things could happen and those things could be bad, but we don't know yet. I mean, it's not guaranteed. It is a risk. It hasn't happened. So you need to list those. And then questions are things that you don't have the answer to yet. So one of the ways this comes up is, hey, I'm thinking about taking on this massive client. But if I take this massive client, that's going to be like 80% of my business. And I'm concerned, you know, about the implications. Perfect for the pcrq. And then questions that last quadrant are things that you need to find out more about you don't know the answer to. It might then be a pro, a con, or it could be a risk. So you want to kind of check off your questions. That's the work. So that you can now populate the answers in one of those quadrants. And then the last step is, well, put it aside for a day and then look at the quadrants and ask yourself, which one seems to weigh more here? Which one seems to either weigh more or really kind of have the most red flags or positive green flags? And then it's just kind of a gut check at that point, or compare it to how you were feeling about it before and see if it's aligned or there's misalignment. So that's one. You've used it before, right? I think you've. You've tried this for sure.

Well, and I have a question for you, kind of based on that. I tend to work with people who, for whatever reason, aren't really sensitive to what their gut is saying or their instinct. And they've learned to push down any of that and really only evaluate things on the surface and look at the pros and cons. Have you found that to be the case as well? Or how do you help people kind of get more sensitive to the weight of things instead of just what looks right or what add up? What adds up?

Yeah, And I have, and I think many people are that way. I agree. Not just your people. Like people I work with, too. And what I have them do is I can't do that work for them. And I'll send them off with some journaling prompts, some questions to ponder. I encourage them to write about it, but they need you on packet. Yeah, right. I Mean, because I may know the answer based on everything I know about you, but now it's me. I'm now taking ownership of it. And now I'm giving you answers. You have no buy in. You have no ownership. It's gotta come from you, you know. So, yeah, I. I'm with you. The only other one, there's a few of them, but this is from Dan Sullivan from Strategic Coach is pick a date. So it's December 31st of this year. You're looking back at the year that has just gone by. What would have needed to have happened in. Fill in the blank. Your business, your physical health, your relationship with X in order for you to feel really good about where you are right now. That's a really powerful framing. So you're already in the future. Okay. The good things have happened that you want to have happened. Right? What are they? And that just because you know what, it takes all the obstacles away. It takes all the obstacles away. You're already there. So what is it? What's life like in this area, that area, this aspect or that aspect? And that is a very powerful clarifying exercise that I love a lot of applications, but one of them is when you're trying to make a big decision.

And I think that works really well on people like me who are too practical with the dreams. Because it's not asking you to say how you got there or what needs to happen or if it's possible. It's just boom, you're transported, everything's perfect. Describe perfect and then you're actually dreaming.

Yes. I love it. And then you can work backwards and then you can figure out the how. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. Cool. Well, sure. What we talk about next?

I'm curious. Cause you're just sitting on like a mountain of having helped thousands of people do this. I'm really curious, like the secrets you can offer people about freelancing and like what they learn when they coach with you and stuff. So the way I framed that was if you had to think of one thing that most people, it's preventing them from achieving whatever their goals are. With freelancing, what comes to mind for you? What's kind of a common denominator with obstacles?

I would say it would have to be fear. It would have to be fear because everything comes back to that, doesn't it? You know, it could be self imposed limitations, limiting beliefs. It could be any of those things, but they all point to fear. I mean, what do you think?

Well, I looked over, I Have my wheel of emotions on the wall for improv. And fear is one of them. And it branches off into scared, anxious, insecure, weak, rejected, threatened, nervous, insignificant, worthless. Like all of these root emotions. And I see that for sure. I was gonna go with perfectionism, but I think that's just another word for fear. So kind of in complete agreement again, because it seems like most people, whether it's pitching or having the sales conversation, or even doing the work and turning the work in, there's this sense that it needs to be perfect or else they'll be rejected and face all those negative consequences. When in reality, there is no perfect white paper. And so no matter what you turn in, it never will be perfect. And if you can't face that or if you struggle with that every single time you turn something in, it's going to be very uncomfortable to do this kind of work for a living.

It absolutely is. You got to get past that somehow. By the way, I don't know if you can hear my dog going crazy downstairs.

No.

Okay, good. Somebody forgot to put him, you know, in his crate. And there's nobody down there except my 12 year old and he can't even control him.

So can you impersonation of the dog so that we can hear what's going on over there.

Oh, my gosh. So if anyone's listening to this with their headphones, they're going to hear it for sure. I'm not going to do the impersonation, but yeah, again, I think it's the inner critic. It really comes down to your inner critic just telling you all the things that you can't do, that it's not perfect enough, that it's not right. So I tend to work with a lot of perfectionists and a lot of overthinkers, and it all comes down to fear. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And listen, it's okay. I'm talking about this. Like, I don't face this. I'm talking about this because I face it. So I know what I'm talking about. You know, it's been fear getting in the way. It's playing small. It's, oh, well, I'm not capable, I'm not qualified. I don't have the experience. I've never done this before. They're beyond me and my capabilities. Who do I think I am, to quote that much? You know, they're above me, so they're a prospect or a client, and I'm subservient. As opposed to being peers. Right. Equal exchange of value. I think many of us Forget, this is not charity. They are paying you for something that's going to be valuable to them or. Right. That they're going to use to now create value. So, yeah, I think that is the end of the day, the biggest factor. I think I did have a bit of an advantage, but it's not as great as people think, because this is all relative. So I had. By the time I went full time freelancing, I had had 12 years of sales, 12 years of really a lot of it. Very scary stuff that was way beyond my comfort zone. So I was able to stretch those comfort zone boundaries maybe beyond the average person, but it was still super scary to me. It's super scary to me. And I did some really scary stuff out there in sales in really tough situations, which I won't get into. But it was really tough.

No, because now I need an example. How scary?

Well, I mean, from cold calling, you know, call 80 people a day and getting hung up on and talked down to and yelled at to. And that's all day. To having to go out in the middle of nowhere to, like, cold call on contractors at job sites wearing a tie, because we were supposed to wear ties. And then I have my. You know, first I had dress shoes and I realized, okay, they're gonna. Got ruined in the mud. So then having to put boots on and going out walking to somebody who not only did they say no, but they completely ignored you while you're talking to them, and they just kept walking. I mean, that is really hard.

That's like cold. Clear rejection.

Very.

It's as cold as it gets.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's still. I'm just saying, even with that, I still found it very difficult. So I get it. If you haven't had those experiences, it could be even harder. But anyway, I think we got to the point of that one, so we had one here about. Okay, so how do you. Oh, yeah, okay. So you get to ask this one.

I'm on this one.

Okay.

The question is, who do you think you are telling people that the obstacle is the way? I have come around to this. Obviously it's true. But I'm really interested in how you compassionately apply this idea that the obstacle is the way and that bad things can ultimately be good things to people that you're working with. And I think I'm coming at it from the experience of, like, a really rough time with parenting. Some wild, chronic health stuff that in my wildest imagination couldn't have anticipated. But somehow you made it okay for me to look for the positives in all of these horrendous things. And I just can't help but think that that might be awkward sometimes when you are in a position to tell people, like, maybe this is a good thing. Let's look for the good things that are happening. So how do you do that?

It's a great question. The first thing is I believe you don't have to have had those same experiences as somebody who's going through them right now in order to be compassionate, in order to be credible, you know, with your guidance and advice. That's the first thing. Because if I have to have experienced every single thing, that's gonna limit the universe of people I can work with to a very small group. Does it help to have experienced, you know, some of that? Yeah, it certainly does. And many times I can commiserate. I can say, hey, I hear you. Something like that happened to me last year, you know, or a few months ago. But in many cases I. I don't. So one is to be really sensitive to the fact that the other person is either going through or has gone through something really terrible and acknowledge that. So have that compassion and that acknowledgement. The second thing is all I can do, I'm not here to tell you what to do. All I can do is hold a mirror to you and then give you tools that you can use for self reflection. Dig deep and uncover some of these answers. So I can help you, give you those things. But at the end of the day, I'm not here to tell you, to preach to you. Okay? And then I think finally encouraging everyone who's facing something like this to be kind to themselves above all. You know, so many people tell me and they're apologizing, so sorry. I'm way behind again. This happened to me and this and that and the other. And I'm thinking my first reaction is, that's horrible, you know, and instead of saying, that's okay, just catch up as quickly as you can. No, no. Be kind to yourself. Take time. This is going to take time. Your biggest priority is to be kind to yourself. If you're not kind to yourself, none of this is going to work. So just do what you can, when you can, when you're ready. And then because you can't absorb the whole obstacle is a way thing when you're in the middle of a storm. And I respect that.

Right.

And hopefully I've been that way with you where I haven't told you. Oh, yeah, well, you got to get over that, Sarah, because we got work to do. You know, hopefully I haven't said that or even given you the idea that that's what I was suggesting.

Oh, no, no. Just how artfully you apply it in retrospect is what makes me curious, because I'm always aware of trying to be in that mindset when bad things happen, and I've certainly gotten better at it, but it always just seemed right out of my reach.

Yeah, that's hard. And it's hard for me to hear it. So I'm hsp, highly sensitive person. I take these things in, you know, I feel it when somebody's going through something and they're explaining to me what's going on. So it's. It's hard. I. I get it. I think empathy is super important. And at the end of the day, though, everything that happens to you happens to you for a reason. And it's really about, okay, what can I take from this? How is this helping me grow and be better? You may not be ready to ask yourself that question at the moment, probably not. But eventually you gotta come back to that, because if you don't come back to that, you will not be better for it. And then you will always struggle just as much with every setback, personal or professional. That's my belief. Again, not easy for me to talk about it now because I'm being objective and. But I know that that's the truth.

Forgot this is a podcast, so people can't see me nodding. Like, a lot.

But no, we'll make sure. We'll post a video and I.

That is what, like, after years, like, literally a decade working with you in some way, and then three or four years coaching, that's kind of my biggest takeaway for why coaching is so important, because it lets you be in relationship with someone who is super smart and has perspective that you don't have. And so it's like when I'm in the middle of it and literally, like, the walls in my living room are torn down looking for mold, and I'm going nuts and I'm not sleeping because of kids. And I can look Ed and be like, okay, Ed's really smart. I trust Ed looks calm. Ed is telling me it's going to be okay, and then I have that relationship to lean on. And it really does get you through some life circumstances, shall we say?

I would be crying in those situations as well, is what you need to know. You know what I'm saying?

Well, I did, and you let me.

Cry, but I would be true. It's not that. Oh, what would Ed do? Oh, it would be strong. He wouldn't be crying like I am right now? Heck no. Ed would be crying. He'd be acting like a child. Ask my wife. You know, I get it, I get it. So I'm glad you asked the question. All right, now, from me to you. Let's talk a little bit about the business of coaching and kind of like behind the scenes stuff that you and I experience when working with clients. It's been fun. What is a pet peeve of yours when it comes to kind of the freelance industry or coaching freelancers or, you know, coaching in this industry?

I have a lot of mild takes that I share on LinkedIn, so I'll try to skip the ones I've shared before. And I think this one, I actually fell into it myself before I was coaching. I think before I was a coach to people. And I think it's thinking that what you need is an answer when in fact what you need is like that perspective and that relationship from somebody. Because, like the Internet is just literally exploding with answers constantly. So you can find the answer to pretty much any question that you have, but knowing when to apply it or when it's relevant or when to push on it, versus letting someone rest and just absorb what's happening in their lives. That's why I don't think Googling or the DIY path is ever really going to be a threat to coaching.

That is so powerful. That's huge. Yeah, I was thinking like, exactly that. That is so true for me. I think it's been the victimhood mindset. Yeah. Like these things happen to me. You know, the world is unfair, the business is changing, going in this direction, and that is unfair. And I'm angry about it. And I'm not judging the reaction themselves. We all have reactions, okay? But there's one thing to react a certain way, the other is your long term response to it. My initial reaction might be very negative. I might feel like a victim, might feel wronged. But how am I letting that now into my life, you know, and into my internal dialogue? And that's where I see a lot of people with this victimhood mindset that's just getting in their way. And I guess the other one would be, especially with writers not treating it like a business, people. I have done well. I've written for all these publications, I have all these bylines in this track record. That should be enough. They're not saying this, but that is not enough. I mean, not anymore. And I hate to say it, but it's just the business has changed so much. Those opportunities are going away little by little, and they have been for years. So this is no surprise. So those are two pet peeves.

Yeah.

Just because they come up so often and I'm surprised that there's not more awareness.

Yeah. And I have a lot of empathy for the victim now, having gone through becoming a parent, I never would have thought of myself or let myself be a victim until just being completely decimated by that experience. And now I can totally understand, but why people would see something bad happen and be like, oh, crap, there's nothing I can do and just kind of wallow in it. I never had that experience before, but I think what happens is it's kind of like a grief process. And victimhood is kind of the first step, but you have to keep moving through the whole thing. So it's like, like you said, bad things happen.

Yeah.

We all feel the, oh, no, I'm gonna lie down and die. But then, like, you gotta get up. Cause no one else can get up for you. And I think that's what people might miss. Cause I see stuff on LinkedIn all the time that makes me jealous or mad or frustrated. And I, like, close it and I leave the room and I stomp around, but I never stay there. And I always move back through, like, all the other productive feelings that you can have about that stuff.

I just feel like with a lot of these things that are happening, these are major shifts. They're not fads. So maybe that's where that's coming from, is I'm seeing it from a different standpoint. It's like, you cannot stop some of the things that are coming. You cannot stop AI how that's gonna. Yeah, sorry, I gotta say it. Every podcast should include that term. You can't change the fact that journalism is changing so dramatically, you know, and it's being commoditized in the quality levels, going down the toilet in the corporate interest, just taking over and making stuff just utter junk. It's unreadable. I always, however, again, being the optimist, I think for every destruction, there is creation on the other side. And I am really encouraged by what I'm seeing in terms of, again, ingenuity. You know, humanity finds a way. Business finds a way to make something new, to create new opportunities. I've just chosen to look at things that way. So I'm not saying, oh, you gotta look at it that way. I'm just giving you a different perspective. You know, not you, but anyone listening. Because I think A lot of people right now might be really mad at me. It's like, you don't understand. I'm not saying I do. Okay. I haven't been a journalist who's been laid off. I haven't been there when I got kids. I can't imagine. However you can fight against it, or you can play jiu jitsu and figure out how am I going to use this to my advantage? How am I going to leverage it? How am I going to reinvent myself?

Boom. Yeah. What I'm thinking is that just because those things you said are true, that everything's getting ruined and destroyed and changing and everything, that doesn't mean that's where the story ends unless you let it. So if you decide that you know everything's crap and it's going to stay that way and that's where you want to stay, that's fine. But we can also learn jiu jitsu and move on and make that to our advantage. I love that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what you wish more people understood about what it's like to be a coach.

Well, you already took my answer before, so we probably should have compared notes. But it absolutely kills me when people come to a call or even want to reschedule a call because they're feeling guilty and they haven't done anything or made any progress. That just kills me. So I want everyone to know that, at least with me, I feel like with all coaches, when you're getting together, it's really not about going down the checklist of what you have and haven't done and grading you on that and deciding in my mind if you're a failure or a winner or like, whatever is happening in your head, it's really just about being in relationship with you and figuring out if we haven't made progress. Could there be any blocks that are happening that we can address versus actual life mayhem that happens to everyone. That's what I'm hung up on.

That's really powerful because life does happen. And if we don't acknowledge that and we think that it's all about checking these boxes, then you're going to be very disappointed very quickly. You know, it's even healthy when things come up, when you get sidetracked, when you face obstacles, because that's the stuff we need as coaches right to now coach you through.

Or it's like learning a martial art and never having an opponent like you would learn those forms. Like, great. They'd be perfect, but you wouldn't actually build any muscle like resisting or challenging anything. So yeah, it's the stuff of coaching is the stuff that makes it hard to stay on track with your business.

Yeah. So you want things to be like off plan and off schedule and a bit messy. Not completely a disaster, but you know, we want to make sure that you're on track to a certain degree.

Do you have any life happening moments that have been funny for you? I can think of 20 right off the bat. So I was once coaching live with someone and we had had to keep my cat in the office because there was construction or something going on. And the cat like went right over here into the litter box.

Oh, I remember this.

On the call, as we're making eye contact.

Did you take a screenshot of that?

Yeah, that's in turn, you see that tail sticking to the air and the poop comes out. It's just stuff like that just happens constantly and you have to be able to keep rolling with things.

Well, since we're talking about poop. Yes, the one that always sticks out. No pun intended. So I had the stomach bug was going around in my house. I was the only safe one and I'm in the middle of a coaching call. And you know how those things hit you like that. I mean, it like, I don't know, you're fine and suddenly one second later, I mean, everything's gotta come outta your body out of every orifice. Sorry, I know this is, you know, kind of bordering on tmi, but I had to interrupt the person. There was no time to find a proper. And I had to just tell them, jonathan, I'm sorry, I have to go. In like 20 minutes later, I was able to call him again and explain what happened because I mean, I couldn't explain what happened. You know, I didn't have time.

Yeah. What do you say? It's, you know, the only people listening to this are humans. And I'm going to say 99% of them have had that experience. So.

Yes.

Yeah, that's.

Always be prepared. And that was the old house. In this house, I have a bathroom right here. Now when I had to walk across the hall, you know, I felt like an eternity. Like in the Matrix when you see the hallway and it keeps going and going and going.

Gotta slip and slide your way down face first. Just dive for it.

Yeah. Okay. So for me, my biggest thing that I wish people knew or understood is that coaching is not training. If you in this business, at least if you want to coach to learn techniques and strategies and tactics and hacks. That is a small part of what you're going to get and you're going to be very disappointed and you're going to feel like, hey, I think I know a lot of this stuff. I don't think I need you, you know, and we would have wasted each other's time. So I've identified there's four things. That's one and to be cute. They're the four Cs. So they all start with a C. So that's codification. That's one thing you can get from a coach. Codify much of your business and that's really powerful stuff. But if that's all you want, buy a course. You know, there's also a lot of free information out there that you put together. I put together a lot of other people. YouTube, if that's all you want, you're better off buying something or looking it up yourself. Now, with a coach, there is value in the aggregation of that information and then having someone give you precisely what you need as opposed to handing you the 700 page instruction manual. So there's that. The second thing would be collaboration. So that is sounding board, right? That is solving problems together. Because I always say, look, I'm going to give you a lot of things that are going to sound like if you do them, your world's going to be perfect. No, things are going to break, things are not going to go according to plan. And that's when a coach really comes in handy. We want to put you out there with these new tools so you can have experiences that are going to blow up in your face. Great. Come back to me with them. Let's talk it through. And that's when the real learning is going to happen. Why? There was a high degree of emotion. And when there's high degree of emotion, the lesson sticks. Okay, so sounding board, brainstorming, buddy, right? It's having that pal, that partner, that thought partner, problem solving, all those things. So that's a collaboration. The third C is contemplation. Creating space for self discovery, to meet yourself differently. You know, a good coach will provide that kind of space for you so you can ask yourself a different set of questions, think a little differently, meet yourself differently. That's really, really important. It seems like a very soft benefit. It's a hugely powerful benefit. Right? A journaling prompt that could like shatter your thinking and how you think about a certain issue. That alone could be worth the entire price of admission sometimes. I know it has for me. I work with coaches and for me there's one more C, the way I structure my coaching programs. And that's community. Right. So then you're part of a community of peers that you get to interact with, all of whom are working with me. And, you know, there's that value. People don't come in for the community typically, but they stay for the community. Like, once they're in, they're like, oh, my gosh, like, how come I didn't know about this? This is a huge, huge benefit. So Those are the four Cs, but that last one is not with every coach and what you get. But I think a good coach is gonna provide at least the first three. And those have to really matter to you or you need to at least understand what they are.

Yeah. You need to be in the arena doing stuff for those three to really help you.

Oh, and heck, yeah. Yeah. If you're not doing the work, then a good coach will also tell you, I don't think this is gonna work.

Right.

Yeah. What's going on?

I feel like I've benefited from all three of those at least twice a year. You rock my world with a journal prompt and the most recent one. Can I just share the most recent one? Everybody could go and sit home. If I trusted myself more, then I would blank. And I did that. I was just at a really low place, literally applying to jobs. Cause I was just sure none of my dreams were working out. And once I did that prompt, it didn't just help me see the situation differently, but it helped me see it more accurately because I was bringing so much emotion and, like, the shadow of failure on everything I was doing when that shadow was really only in my mind. And so looking at that prompt, it was just like, wait a second, I'm exhibiting all the behavior of someone who doesn't trust themselves. And I didn't think that was me. And so it just created this whole opportunity to argue with myself about how I actually see myself and get a lot more realistic.

And when did it hit you? Did you write that out 12 times, or did you just go with it and start doing free form writing?

Yep. Yeah. So probably around the third time I rewrote it, it just popped up. Like, if I trusted myself more, I'd be excited to see what comes next. And I was like, whoa, I'm not excited. That's the last thing I would say. I am dreading, I am fearful. I am like, in all of these really low vibration energy things, emotion things. And so I tried to think of, like, well, what would it be like if I was excited to see what comes next because that's an option we have at any moment. We could dread it or we could be excited, but it's just like, what happens in our brain that decides which one we do.

That's super powerful. And by the way, I need to give credit, and I think I shared it with you, to my coach and mentor, Pelly Topp, who gave me that prompt. And I've worked with him on and off for 12 years now, and it's been immensely powerful, which is something that I need to mention here. You know, we haven't really addressed it head on, but you work with a coach, I work with a coach. Everyone needs to know that we don't have this stuff fully figured out. Nobody ever does. You don't. You never arrive. You never fully figure it out. I'm a huge believer in working on yourself as well, because, again, we don't arrive. And if you think you've learned it all and you stay where you are, your growth is going to be limited. The way I look at it is I want to keep growing all the time. Every year as I grow, I pull my people with me. You know, I'm benefiting not just me, but my clients, my audience when I share new insights with them. And it would be a shame if you and I just stopped growing. So people sometimes ask me, do you ever work with a coach? And many people assume that I don't. Like. Oh, absolutely. Not every time. Not every month or every year. But, yeah, on and off. I have for a long, long time. And it's been. I mean, I wouldn't be where I am, you know, and so kudos to Peleg. He has been an amazing coach and mentor for me for many years.

Yeah, I kind of see it like the baton that you pass off when you're doing the race, if there's a name for it.

The relay.

Yeah, the journal prompts. It's just like a relay baton. You pass to each person and then they do their sprint and then they pass it on and then somebody else does their sprint.

Yeah.

Because it all has to happen at that individual person level, which is, again, why coaching just makes the most sense to me.

I'm with you. I'm with you. All right, so as we wrap up, we wanted to do some rapid fire fun questions, so why don't you leave.

Time to embarrass yourself? What song or songs are on your regular playlist that you're embarrassed to admit to?

All right, so you're not going to be embarrassed. You're going to be happy. But I'm embarrassed to address this Taylor Swift. Two songs, delicate and a remix of Lavender Haze. It's just a dance remix of Lavender Haze. They're both fantastic.

I'm so proud of you right now.

But that's it. That no other Taylor.

I'll work on a playlist for everybody else.

Okay. What about you?

I do think I'm beyond being embarrassed at this point musically, because I used to be just a prude about music. But I will say, you might catch me with. There's someone named Desmond Dennis, and he does R and B nursery rhymes. So it's like. It's the most chill ABCs you might have ever heard in your life. Or like Jack Be Nimble, Jack Be Quick, but it's R and B and it's so good. Like, the harmonies are so good. So just look up Desmond Dennis and you'll have a sultry ABC song stuck in your head.

All right.

Listen to it for fun. It's amazing.

Okay, here's one. If you could wake up and be world class in an instrument, which would you pick right away?

I thought voice, because that seems like the most brave thing a human being could do. And it's like literally just the essence of yourself becomes sound. And that just seems really brave to me. So if I could be amazing at that suddenly and confident, I think amazing and confident would be important. I would do that.

That is brave. Well, you know, I play drums, but I'm not world class by any means. So to me, it would be that if I could be absolutely world class. Let me put it to you this way. I'll give a reference for anyone who wants to look this up. You do not have to be a drummer to really appreciate this. And I think I sent you a link to this. This is Tool, the band Rock band Tool. The drummer is Danny Carey. To me, he is the best drummer alive today in the rock space. Okay. And there's a song called Numa P N E U M A. In the whole song, it's several camera angles just on him. My biggest thing when I see that is how amazing would it be to wake up every morning knowing you can play that. That right there encapsulates what I would love to be able to do. Look up Numa. Fast forward a little bit because it takes a couple of minutes for it to really get going. You're going to be blown away. It is drumming at its finest.

And are you practicing every day to get there?

No, I'm not.

Okay, we'll just Wish it right now.

We will. We will. All right. Okay. So what do most people like that you think is totally overrated?

I actually came up with a tension which I thought was surprisingly deep because I thought I was going to come up with something silly. But I think if I could just secretly and quietly be rich behind the scenes and just do things, I think I would be really happy. So I think it's attention. I think we think attention is what will get us what we want, but.

I don't think it actually will, that kind of attention. Yeah, okay, you threw me off there for a minute.

Oh, yeah, sorry. I mean, like business wise, like on LinkedIn.

Yeah. Getting attention.

Everybody's like, I need the right, not focused story.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Oh, so deep. Mine is not that deep. I'm about to really upset some people out there. Two things, Shakespeare and musicals. I don't get either one. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. To me, torture would be to go see. I need to leave to see Hamlet, a Romeo and Juliet or sit through a Broadway musical. It would be utter torture. And I'm glad because that stuff is expensive. So you know what?

Even the Leonardo DiCaprio one, Romeo and.

Juliet from like the 90s, I would never see that. Yeah, yeah, sorry.

That's the only chance of changing your life, changing your.

I hope some listener goes, you know, thank God somebody said it. I hope not everyone's gonna or hate on me for that.

Yeah. Even Hamilton.

Oh, gosh, no, sorry. Okay, sorry. I'm saving all kinds of money. I'm a big believer. And look, you need to be true to yourself. If you don't like something, don't pretend because you really should be spending that time, energy and attention on something that really brings you joy. Maybe when I'm 87 years old, I'll finally get it. I've never gotten it and I've tried and I've tried. I got my youngest, he likes some of that stuff. I've taken him to these shows. We've been to the Nutcracker. I just do it for the love of my children. I can't stand it. I can't stand that stuff. So anyway.

Okay, but you want to have like a decade appointment to try to read Romeo and Juliet every, like 10 years, right? Just to see if it takes.

No.

Are you just gonna let it come to you from the wild?

I'm just gonna let it come to me.

Okay.

So sorry.

I think we need to let everybody mourn for a little bit.

Okay, well, I'M sure it'll be fine. All right, last rapid fire. Let's flip it. What do most people think is overrated that you love?

Now this one, I have a good silly answer and that is pension. Because I have become obsessed with fountain pens and I am now a collector. And yes, they're all the same and yes, they all write just as well as the other ones, but yes, I need 20 of them.

I love that you love that because it's such a unique thing and I love the tactile nature and old school nature of that.

Yeah, well, it's coming back because everybody's going analog and then everybody's getting into handwriting and cursive and then looking at fountain pens. So I think it'll be oversaturated soon, but I'm totally fine with that.

Well, I have a similar answer, which is interesting, but I called it dead media. So dead media books, specifically. I love physical books and I'm sorry, you know, I don't know how people can read on an iPad. I have a Kindle, but I only use at night in bed as a tool to help me fall asleep. And I only read fiction in my Kindle. I cannot stand reading something that's going to be practical, useful, insightful, and not be able to annotate, highlight, you know, dog ear pages. Super important to me. I don't know how college kids are doing it today with no textbooks, no physical textbooks, everything is digital. I would not survive right now.

Yeah.

As a student.

No. And they've done studies that like retention with physical media is higher. So it's absolutely like a real problem. But then you get into, you know, democratizing knowledge and letting everybody have the same access at a different fee. So it's complicated, but I totally agree.

Well, I think that's fine. I'm okay with having choice, but I want the choice. I want the choice. So give me the ability to buy the physical version. And I'm getting into vinyl, you know, going back to old school. And I love it. I love the nostalgic element of that kind of media. We used to own all this stuff. We don't own it anymore. And I think it's sad. That's a little sad. So I'm back into buying movies again. You know, the Blu Ray, they keep changing the format though, right? So, you know, I still have the VHS of the Godfather series and then I bought the DVD and I need to now buy the Blu Ray, I guess. But where is this going to stop? I think I'm going to stop for now. And just wait until, like, the end of the line. Yeah.

Or go all in on vhs.

Yeah. Let's come back full circle. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, any parting thoughts before we leave? I mean, that's all I had here, and I didn't really prepare anything to close, but I want to make sure there's anything you wanted to say before we close.

It would have been strategic for me to think of something to say, but I did not. I've just really enjoyed getting to know the secretive, shy version of you.

Well, I guess if I were to say something that came to mind, I didn't prepare anything, but I have as many challenges as, you know, you have and as other people have. They're just different types of challenges, you know, running a coaching business as a whole, different set of challenges and complexities. And believe me, it's no sunshine and unicorns every day. Setbacks all the time. Things that don't work out anywhere near like they should have or you expected them to. Those things are really hard. But at the end of the day, I. I still look forward to Mondays, you know, and that's a good sign. To me, that's a great litmus test. And the day that I stop looking forward to Mondays will be the day that, you know, I'll find something else to do. I'm always looking and open to other ideas, but I'm not actively looking for new stuff to do.

And then a unicorn trots by behind you.

Right, right. And I know, you know, you've shared the same thing. You know that this is not always easy. So I want everyone to know that just because we're coaching others doesn't mean that, you know, we don't face challenges. We certainly do.

Yeah. And that does come full circle a little bit, because the obstacle is the way stuff. I think the time I started making the most progress was that was right after I started coaching. And I would talk with people who were going through maybe just some really trying, devastating personal stuff. And it's like when I took a call like that, and let's say, you know, just something happened in the person's personal life and my ability to empathize with that and understand and really be there for them, because I had gone through the same absolutely crappy kinds of things, I think that's when it started to really become true that I could see, like, it was good that I went through that, even though I was a wreck at the time, because now I can be there for this person in this really special way, and I Think before, maybe that would have sounded kind of hokey and dumb, but in that moment, it felt like magic that I could really be there for them. So, yeah, it's like the experience of coaching is always like evolving and changing me as I go.

I love that. I think it's a great way to end. So thanks for doing this with me, Sarah. This is fun.

Thanks for inviting me.

Hey there, it's Ed again, and I appreciate you listening to this conversation. Sarah and I recorded it a couple days ago and that night I went to bed thinking that something just wasn't right. And that feeling kept me up for a while and I eventually realized where it was coming from. I didn't share something important about my business over the past year. And in the spirit of being fully transparent about the behind the scenes stuff, which is the whole point behind this podcast, is for us to discuss some of the things that we don't typically discuss publicly. I wanted to tell you about that. Now, I think it's important and I think it's, you know, something that I really feel that should talk about and now is the time to do it. So 2023 for me started out on a difficult note. And by the way, bear with me between the interview that Sarah and I did and now I've caught a man cold. So I'm definitely congested and trying to get through it. But I didn't want to wait too long before recording this part of the podcast. So 2023 started out on a difficult note. My operations manager, Crystal. Crystal Coleman, had taken on a full time role and this is something that I knew about. She had approached me a few months before in late 2022. She had a great opportunity. You know, I encourage her to, yeah, absolutely, take it, and let's figure out a way that we can either transition you out or what we need to do. And essentially what we came to was an agreement that she would still work with me on a part time basis in my business and she'd have to do it differently because her full time role was going to require a lot of focus and attention. But we both felt that we could make it work. Unfortunately, it didn't work. There were a lot of reasons I'm not going to get into it, and the whole point here is not to do any finger pointing, but it did not work out at all. And a big part of the problem was our communications at that point were very strained and constrained, meaning that it was very difficult for us to really have a real conversation. And there are a lot of things that were going on at the moment. This is right at the end of 2022, very early 2023. There required some pretty fast responses because I was in the middle of some campaigns and some things that, you know, if anything went wrong, I needed help fixing and I didn't know how to fix it myself. So that's what was happening. And what ended up happening from there is something that it's hurtful. We parted on a very sour note. Essentially what happened is something broke. We had reached a point where there was a lot of miscommunication. And after 13 years of working together, that's a long time in Internet years. 13 years is. That's ages. After 13 years of working together, we parted ways and unfortunately we parted on a very, very sour note. So I had to start all over. You need to understand that most of my business operations I don't know how to run. I've done a lot of things wrong. But one thing I feel like I've done really well is understand and admit where I have strengths and where I have weaknesses and then find people who can fill in roles and functions that I don't do well. And Crystal filled so much of this for me for a long, long time. So when she left abruptly, I only had one other person on the team. And she did an amazing job, Ashley. But you know, she wasn't Crystal and that she wasn't privy to a lot of the behind the scenes stuff, a lot of the more tactical and technical aspects of the business. But she stepped in and she was amazing. But it was clear that, you know, that her role was not going to be to take over Krystal's job. So I had to start all over finding a new operations manager to run business operations for me. Coaching demand at that point in my business was strong, but I had to pause the marketing and sales of courses and workshops and I had to do that because once I did find somebody to take on that role, she needed to go in and essentially just learn my business of the business. But she stepped in and she was amazing. But it was clear that, you know, that her role was not going to be to take over quite Krystal's job. So I had to start all over finding a new operations manager to run business operations for me, coaching to and start from scratch and just start all over, right? Start all over, learn the ropes. And I didn't want to and I couldn't really pile on too much on her. So Jessica, who's now my operations manager, has done an amazing job. I mean she's been incredible. But she came in and just to give her that space, I paused a lot of marketing campaigns and as a result, I took a big financial hit because, you know, revenue wasn't coming in outside of coaching, and now I had much higher operating expenses and operating expenses were higher and at that point in my business was strong. But I had to pause the marketing and sales of courses and workshops and I had to do that because once I did find somebody to take on that role, she needed to go in and essentially just learn my business for several reasons, but one is because Jessica had to come in and pick up the pieces. So a lot of this was onboarding and training and you know, you can imagine 13 years of just a lot of stuff that was scattered everywhere. It took a while. One of the things that we didn't do a good job of at all was documenting sop, standardized operating procedures, systems, documents, where everything should be where it is. And we didn't have a business and I, I didn't have a business that somebody could come in and help me take over operationally and start from scratch and just start all over, right? Start all over, learn the ropes. And I didn't want to and I couldn't really pile on too much on her. So Jessica, who's now my operations manager, has done an amazing job. I mean, she's been incredible. But she came in and, you know, if something were to happen to the operations manager, that was a huge failure on my part. I take full responsibility for that. But that's where we were. And Jessica came in and realized this is a mess. She was trying to figure things out. So bottom line is revenue is way down, expenses are much, much higher. And then I'm going to fast forward a little bit when I resume marketing my courses and workshops later in the year, I found that sales were terrible. It was just to give her that space. I paused a lot of marketing campaigns and I'm not going to get into why. I've talked to other colleagues. It seems like on as a result I took a big financial hit because, you know, revenue wasn't coming in outside of coaching. And now I had much online course workshops, self study stuff. The demand has higher operating expenses and operating expenses were higher, dropped significantly. I hadn't been marketing these things for a while, so I didn't notice the downward trend, but it had been happening for a while. And when I resumed, I realized, oh my God, this is absolutely terrible. I've had to in 2023, basically pour a lot of money into the business to keep it stable. As a result, it's drained my financial reserves. I mean not fully drained, but it's really, really put a hurting on financial reserves. And fortunately I'm in good shape for several reasons but one is because Jessica had to come in and pick up the ape. The business is in good shape. But I did take a big hit last year pieces. So a lot of this was onboarding and training and to give you an idea, revenue didn't drop as dramatically as I initially thought it did. You know, you can imagine 13 years of just a lot of stuff that was scattered everywhere. It took a while. One of the things that we didn't do a good job, it was about a 20% drop in total revenue but our expenses increase by over 200% and that was consistently so profit wise it was a huge, huge hit. And the biggest hit honestly wasn't financial. The biggest hit was the emotional toll that it took on me. So even though 2023 was one of my worst financial years in a long time, I was able to weather the storm financially and emotionally. That's love at all. Was documenting SOP standardized operating the good news and looking back, I'm pleasantly surprised how well I kept procedures, systems, documents where everything should be, where it is and we my composure overall, I'm proud of the fact that I didn't have one sleepless night that I didn't have a business and I, I didn't have a business that somebody could come in and help me take over operationally. I can remember and even though I had really some very bad days, I'm not proud of some of the things that I did or said especially to myself as I was struggling. But I credit a lot of just kind of getting through this to the work that I did with my coach and mentor Pelik Top last year which I've mentioned here in the interview with Sarah. It's no coincidence, I feel that a few months before the 2023 started, so this is must have been, you know, if something were to happen to the operations manager, that was a huge failure on my part. I take full responsibility for that. But that's where we were. Jessica came in and realized around November, December 2022 I committed to working with Peleg on a very intense 100 day program that was going to start in late January. Guys, this is a mess. She was trying to figure things out. So bottom line is revenue is way down, expenses are much, much higher. And then 2023 and it's a program that happened to start right when things were blowing up all around me in my business. And I credit the deep work that Peleg and I did over those 100 days to helping me weather that storm. The other thing is a good financial discipline over the past few years enabled me to get through it again from a financial standpoint. And I'm proud of the fact that we're now in a really good spot to stabilize. I'm going to fast forward a little bit when I resume marketing my courses and workshops later in the year. I found that sales were terrible. It was the business and grow from here. We have some exciting plans for this year including some new offerings we're going to be testing. I have no idea how they're going to work, but I'm excited to start testing new things. I'm not going to get into why I've talked to other colleagues. It seems like online course workshops, self study stuff. The demand has just been a while since I've tested some new and exciting offers. And I'm also very committed to not only continuing to grow my coaching business, which I'm really, really proud of and I'm really proud of all the coaching clients that have been through it and the transformations that I've been seeing over the past few years that has continued, but I'm also very committed to growing my overall audience. This year dropped significantly. I hadn't been marketing these things for a while so I didn't know and that's something that I've ignored for a long time. So I haven't really focused on audience growth in years and most of a lot of reasons for that. But I found it very challenging. Notice the downward trend. But it had been happening for a while and when I resumed I realunging in the past I've tried a bunch of different things and nothing seemed to work consistently. I said oh my God, this is absolutely terrible. I've had to in 2023 basically pour a lot of money into the business to keep it stable. As a result it's and after a while I just kind of gave up and I let the audience grow organically and it has. My audience grows every month gradually, not by very much every month. But I've come up with some new ideas that I feel are going to make a big difference and I'm going to be purposefully, mindfully working on growing the audience. So why am I telling you all this? Hopefully I haven't bored you to death by now, but it's drained my financial reserves. I mean not fully drained, but it's really, really put. I Want you to know that last year was a crappy year for me in many ways, just like it was for a lot of people in my audience, maybe even for you. But are hurting on financial reserves and fortunately I'm in good shape. And I don't think I did a very good job of expressing that in today's episode Ape. The business is in good shape, but I did take a big hit last year to give you an idea. Revenue didn't drop as dramatically as I initially thought it did. So I wanted to just come clean and just be completely transparent with you and just share some of these struggles and what happened and what I did about it and the fact that, hey, it wasn't all pretty. Wish I could tell you that I did swimmingly, but I did not. There are many weeks where I really struggled with this and there were days when I thought, what's the point of doing all that? It was about a 20% drop in total revenue, but our expenses, I should just shut this thing down and go do something else. And that happens, I think if you don't experience increase by over 200% and that was consistently so profit wise. It was a huge, huge hit. And the biggest hit, honest is that every once in a while you don't have enough challenges in your business or your life. So looking back, I'm glad. I'm glad I had the obstacles and I want you to know, wasn't financial the biggest hit was the emotional toll that it. Oh, chew that. I have a lot of empathy for freelancers who have struggled and found themselves in a difficult situation, especially over the past year. You know, you have taken a chance going out on your own. You take the hits every day. You have way more on your shoulders than your traditionally employed colleagues because it's all on youtuk on me. So even though 2023 was one of my worst financial years in a long time, I was able to weather the storm financially and emotionally. That's, you know, by default. Anyone who's traditionally employed has others. They're part of a team with you. It's all on you. You're really taking all the chances, all the risk. And I want you to know that I find your the good news. And looking back, I'm pleasantly surprised how well I kept my composure overall. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't have one sleepless night that I courage and your resilience admirable. I admire your insistence of in swimming against the current and doing your things your way. So I'm with you. I'm with you in solidarity, I'm with you in spirit. And I'm committed to helping you get to a better place. This year through my podcast, my newsletter, my courses, I can remember. And even though I had really some very bad days on workshops and coaching, if you find those things are a good fit for you, My philosophy has not proud of some of the things that I did or said, especially to myself as I was struggling, but I credit a lot of just always been and continues to be that no matter what, I want to serve you. I want to add value to your business and to your life. Whether or not we end up working together. Kind of getting through this to the work that I did with my coach and mentor Peleg top last year. It doesn't really matter even if all you do is consume my free content. That is great. I appreciate you and I appreciate you more than you know. So thank you for listening. I'm honored that you tuned in and that you listened this far into the episode and I wish you all the best this year and beyond. Well, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And just a quick reminder to grab you a were free which I've mentioned here in the interview with Sarah. It's no coincidence I feel that free copy of my latest book earn more and less time. The.