#353: Moving from Order-Taker to Trusted Advisor and Expert, with Amy Posner

Welcome to the High Income Business Writing Podcast, helping you propel your writing business to a whole new level. And now, here's your host, Ed Gandia. Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the High Income Business Writing Podcast, the number one podcast for business writers and copywriters who want to earn more and less time doing work they love for better clients. With well over 1.3 million downloads from listeners just like you across 101 countries. You know as freelancers and solo professionals, we often and unknowingly sabotage our own success. From the very first interaction with a prospect, we present ourselves and our services in a way that just works against us. It erodes trust and diminishes our perceived value. Before we even begin working with a potential client, it often starts the moment we ask our prospect or client, what can I do for you? This simple question, or any variation of that question, can unknowingly shift us from being experts or trusted advisors in our field to mere order takers losing control of our own business direction. From there, it just shows up in what we say to clients and prospects, what we offer, how we price our work, how we position ourselves in the marketplace, and how we talk about what we do and the value we deliver. In this episode, we're diving into this critical issue. My guest is Amy Posner, an experienced freelance professional and entrepreneur who has mastered the art of positioning herself as an expert rather than an order taker. Amy shares invaluable insights on how to regain control of your freelance business, build authority with clients, and establish yourself as the go to expert in your field. And we explore a number of important topics including how to recognize when you've fallen into this order taking role and how to break free from it. Practical Steps to Shift from Order Taker to Expert and yes, yes, yes, yes, you are more of an expert than you realize. Building and Demonstrating Authority Even if you feel you're shy or you're introverted, setting boundaries and managing client expectations. Super important in developing the communication skills and confidence needed to position yourself as an expert. Doesn't matter if you're a seasoned freelancer looking to level up your business, or if you're still in the early stages of growing your practice, this episode offers valuable insights to help you take back the power in your business and truly thrive as a freelance professional. I hope you find our conversation enlightening in actionable. Hey Amy, Welcome. Good to have you here finally.

Thanks, Ed. Good to be here.

I've been admiring what you're doing and I know you and I have been talking about getting you on the show. It's been a few months, and I'm glad we're able to make it happen, especially on a topic that I'm passionate about. And I'm glad we're going to have this discussion. Before we get started, though, let's love to know a little bit more about you for the sake of our listeners, because you have a really interesting background. You know, you haven't been just a copywriter for a long time. I know you started several businesses. So I'd like to know kind of the origin story, how you got here and what did you do along the way.

So it's interesting because I grew up in a family business, and I did not want to be in business. I wanted to be, you know, the creative one in the family. And so I pursued that for a while and did a lot of traveling in my early days and interestingly, came back to New York City and got a job working for someone. Just a job you get in your 20s as you're figuring things out. And what happened in that situation was I really liked my boss. We got to know each other pretty well, and I had all kinds of ideas, and he liked my ideas, and he implemented them. And he ended up offering me a partnership in his business. He offered me to buy into the business. He really liked my ideas. He liked what we were creating together was so far removed from my consciousness like that, you know, that would be something he'd offer or something I would do. And I got really intrigued, and I liked what I was doing, and I bought in and we built that business into something very successful. In fact, it's still operating today. It's an international business. I sold out of it years ago. My original partner's still running it. But I really got a taste for the creativity in business. Like this idea that you could kind of make something out of nothing. Like you could have an idea and implement it, and if it worked, you'd build something. And that led me to become a partner in a marketing design firm in New York. Left there, sold out of that business. We're really fortunate to sell out. A typography business was one of the components. And that was just when desktop computing started. Kind of a little bit similar to what's happening with AI now. Not quite so pervasive, but it was. I mean, people thought they were being put out of business. It was a really scary time, but we were able to sell out. I did some traveling, came back, started another business, and that was sort of, you know, what I did. I became A serial entrepreneur, more or less. Ended up training and coaching at some point in my career. And then I became a copywriter and had a really successful run as a freelance copywriter for about a decade and kind of wove coaching and mentoring into that because it was something I had done before. And, you know, I had people coming to me and saying, well, how do I do this and how do I do that? And that sort of evolved into running masterminds and for programs and coaching in some other people's programs. And that's kind of brought me to where I am right now. You know, 30 years of entrepreneurship. 30 years plus. I think I have things figured out. And, you know how it is. It's like the shifting landscape. So, you know, you're always pivoting and reinventing and responding to the marketplace, and I just really enjoy that, and I really, really enjoy helping people sort of cut through some of the noise and get where they're going more quickly. I mean, there's some really basic. I'm answering the question a little longer here, but I mean.

No, that's great.

Okay. There's some basic things that people need to know in order to eat well as a freelancer, because I've seen really talented freelancers who don't have business chops just don't eat as well as maybe a mediocre practitioner who knows how to run a business. And I'm looking to close that gap.

Yeah, I approach it from a very different angle. It's interesting that sometimes coming from a totally different world can help you be a more successful creative, because, you know, having come from the corporate world, especially corporate sales, first of all, I thought of it as a business, and then I thought of it as a business where nothing happens until someone makes a sale. So to me, everything was about marketing and selling, and then the production kind of takes a backseat to that, as opposed to what I thought was really strange is my colleagues who'd been in it for decades were approaching it in reverse. You know, marketing and sales kind of took a backseat, just as an example. I mean, there are other elements of the business, so I definitely resonate with what you said. I'm curious when, you know, you did 10 years as a copywriter, you said that was on your own, that as a freelancer, or were you working for. Okay, so were you always drawn to the marketing and sales side of things, even from the early days?

A hundred percent. I loved it. I. I love the idea of marketing. I love that you could create something and, you know, and test it and Iterate it and make it work. And I like sales. I mean sales to me is a conversation. I never saw sales as, you know, something I was, you know, doing to someone or looking for a certain, know, outcome or trying to, you know, bend somebody into something they didn't want. For me it was more a discovery about fit. And I like people, I like talking, I like solving problems. So that was a really natural way to get into, you know, being an expert and sort of being at a higher level freelancer, if you will.

Well, let, let's talk a little bit about expertise. Cause I'd like to focus much of our discussion along those lines. You and I use a term very often that I think it more of us need to really be having this conversation is this term of order taker. For a long time I have noticed that a lot of freelance professionals have an order taking mindset. And I, and I'm very transparent with my audience. I let them know that hey, for years I made a really good living as an order taker. Order taking is safer. Order taking, you know, if you do everything right, you can have plenty of that coming in and you essentially have the proverbial clipboard and a pen and you just kind of taking the orders of your prospects and clients and you can do really, really well. But there are limits to that. And as you mentioned, the landscape continues to shift. You will quickly get into trouble using that model. So what would you say are some common signs that a freelancer has fallen into the trap of being an order taker rather than, you know, an expert or a trusted advisor? Let's start there.

Yeah, so I think the basic thing that defines an order taker is someone who says yes. So the client calls, you know, I need an X and the freelancer says, great, it'll cost you Y. I can get it done by X date. Let's go. And that they're taking an order, essentially the person shows up, they could be ordering a sandwich or they could be ordering a web design or they could be ordering a piece of copy and you know, you've got a menu and you say yes. On the other hand. Well, you didn't ask me this, you didn't ask me. The difference be what I see is the difference between undertaker and experts. I don't know.

Well, automatic. I knew we would land there anyway. But I wanted to see what you see as the signs because then listeners can start kind of self identifying, you know, if some of this resonates. But yeah, however you want to take it.

Okay, so that's what I see as the order taker. I mean, you're literally taking the order, right? Like, you know, like the wait step. They show up at your table, you tell them what you prefer, they say, great, and they go get it done, and they bring it back, hopefully in a timely and a delicious way. The expert says, great, so tell me what's going on, like, why, you know, you need a new website. So what's going on? Well, tell me what brought us to this call? What's the genesis of the call? What's been going on in your business? And, you know, to tell me a little bit, why do you need this thing? And that's the expert trying to discern what's actually behind the need. And I think why that's important is because very often clients show up needing a thing or ordering a thing, but what they're after always is an end result. And what we don't know as the consultant or the contractor, we don't know that what they're bringing us is actually the best solution to the problem. And we can choose for that to be something we care about or not. Right? I can say, great, you need this. I can create it. Good deal, let's do it. Or we can take a deeper dive and say, like, let's talk about why you need it and what's going on, and let's just make sure that this is the best solution. I'm not necessarily saying that because that could be insulting, but that's what I want to ascertain. Like, is this the best solution? If I agree to do this, will I be giving them, you know, the best help that I can and the best solution for their particular problem? And so for me, that's the discernment. It's a yes or it's a deeper dive.

So it sounds like a lot of this starts with mindset, right? It's how you view yourself, how you view your value, how you view your role, and how you view your relationship with a client or future relationship with a prospect. So one of the objections I hear to this, or not objections, but it's the pushback. And sometimes the pushback doesn't come verbally. When I'm talking to someone about this, sometimes you could just see it in their face. You know, when you suggest that there's a different approach, a big part of the pushback is, well, yeah, but the client knows what they want. Who am I to then start questioning that? So maybe we can explore that a little bit because that's kind of the starting point. And if you're already coming into this with the wrong mindset, it's going to be very, very difficult to kind of move in a different direction.

Yeah, that's a great point actually. And it's something, you know, to be mindful of because it's one thing to tell you, well, you should do this. It's another thing if you're not a hundred percent comfortable doing it, either you're not going to do it or it's not going to come off well. Right. So there needs to be, I think, a deeper understanding of what you're actually doing. And I think sometimes that stems from seeing the client as a bit of an adversary rather than a partner, or maybe see perceiving them as a boss, like, okay, we're going to have this conversation and you're going to decide whether or not, or not you're going to, you know, I'm air quoting here, hire me. And that all the power is in the hands of this potential client, this prospect, which to some extent it is because they're going to say yes or no to whatever you propose to them. But there's also agency on your part. Right. You get to decide, you know, is this a project you want to work on, is this a client you want to work with and is their problem a problem that you want to solve. And so when you show up with that mindset that you're more of a partner in helping them accomplish a goal than you are sort of a plug in player to do a task, you see it a little bit differently. And it's interesting too, because you know, there are different types of clients who have different needs and want different things. And there are clients who want an order taker. And like you said earlier, that's totally legit. I mean, that's a fine way to make a living. It's just not necessarily a sustainable way to make a living because you don't have a lot of control over what's going on or the process. And so I think, you know, in terms of how you show up and what your mindset is, it's a really interesting thing. And tell me if you see this, it's when you're newer, you feel like asking questions makes you look like you're not knowledgeable.

Yeah.

And as you get to be more seasoned and more expert, you realize like you've got to ask all the questions, like even the most basic questions, and that's what actually makes you the expert, you know, is the ability to like pick something up and look at it from all the angles and really think about it rather than just being forward focused and saying yes to things. And that can be a choice. And you can also work up to that position. Right. You don't have to start day one and you know, you know, say, well, I'm an expert and I'm going to adopt this position. You know, you can get in and feel it around first. But I think, and Ed, I'd be curious if you agree. I think the goal is, is to be the expert because it puts you in more control of your business and it puts you more in control of your practice as well. I mean actually what you're, you know, delivering and crafting.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I tend not to use the word expert because it freaks so many people out. I rarely talk to someone who, when I talk about expert and expertise they don't push back and say, well yeah, but I'm not an expert. Right. I think there's a connotation there, you know, with the word expert that there's so many hang ups there. The other word is consultant. Because when I was listening to you, what came to mind was this sounds like really a consultant. It's a consultative sale. It's a consultative conversation. And that's not me. You know, look, I'm just a writer or I'm just a copywriter. I'm really, really good. Shouldn't the quality of my work do most of the heavy lifting? I think that's the paradigm that most people are operating under. Or what if I keep my rates or my fees low enough or at this level that's competitive enough that that's going to be another competitive advantage? Or maybe I can talk a little bit about my experience now we're kind of getting into a different level but they often fall short of really presenting themselves as an expert. So I agree with you. I just wonder how many people really understand. So I'm going to throw it back at you. How many people really understand what this term expert really means and represents? So what's your take on that? How would you advise someone?

Yeah, you're making a really great point. I mean, I think, you know, we can't jump over that fact that, that people feel really uncomfortable. And I think your point, doesn't just the quality of my work stand me as an expert or stand me in good stead to run a business and like, yes, it's great, you have to have great work product. But I think, and maybe this is a gentler way or an easier way for people to think about it. We're not talking about. Well, let me rephrase this. One of the ways that you can demonstrate expertise is by offering really amazing customer service and just taking good care of people and figuring out what it is that they want. And, you know, there are all kinds of clients out there. There are clients that don't care about the service. They care about the price. There are other people who care about the price and the service. There are people for whom the service is going to be really important. Everyone wants good quality output. Right? I mean, we can assume that every client, you know, wants the best deliverable that you can possibly create. But what they're looking for, too, are, like, there's some other really important factors that tie into expertise that aren't related to your craft specifically. And those would be things like reliability, having processes in place, you know, being comfortable enough to talk to the client and ask them questions to make sure that you're serving them as well as you possibly can. And there are clients who will pay well for that, who want to know that they're in really good hands. And so I think sometimes that can be expertise that people feel a little more comfortable leaning into than, like, you know, than planting the stake and saying, I am the best X in the world. Because I don't think it's necessarily about being the best. I think it's about doing your best and being really good. But I think this layer of expertise or this sort of setting yourself in at another level as a consultant or as an expert, is really about delivering an experience and a whole package to people. It's not really. I mean, yes, there are levels of expertise, and obviously, you know, the more years you practice, the better you're going to get, the more confident ideally you'll get. But there is. I know how to say this. I feel like, you know, when people are bold enough to hang a shingle and say, I'm going to do this, I just want them to own it. I want you to take that boldness a little bit further to say, like, I did this because I'm good at what I do.

Yes.

You know, and I'm going to deliver you something really excellent, and if I can wrap it in a really great experience, it's going to be an even better experience. But, like, the hardest thing was saying you were going to do it in the first place. Right? Like taking that leap. And then I.

You just separated yourself from most people. Right there.

Right there. And. And of course, it brings up all this fear and all your insecurity and all the Things that we're all afraid of in life, yet you did it. And so like give yourself the credit for that and step into it and you know, and really, and do it at the best than you possibly can, not just for your client, but for yourself. I think we owe that to ourselves. And I think we, I mean as humans we tend to be self diminishing. We can find all our faults very easily and all our flaws. But like you made this really bold move, like you deserve this, you deserve to, you deserve for it to work really well for you.

You just entered a new camp. I, I fully agree. And I love what you said about different levels of expertise. Maybe that's a healthier way to think about it. So if somebody's listening right now and they're hesitating, in fact that they've kind of shut us out already, but somehow they're still listening because they think, well, yeah, but I'm not an expert, you know, I just do this or that and I make a living. What if you, instead of seeing it as a binary thing, like not an expert or an expert, what if you saw it as different levels and degrees of expertise? Because I think automatically we think of fill in the blank, right? The top level person who's written all these books like a Seth Godin or name your favorite star in your field. Well, you know, those are extreme examples. This is why often hate these examples in business about Steve Jobs and because they're so extreme that there's a limit to their utility. And I think if we saw it as like, hey, like you said, the fact that you just put yourself out there and that you're doing something, you're already at level one. Levels two and three could be delivering a great experience by always doing what you said you were going to do. You know, because I listen, I've worked with people. Now that you say that, you're right. I've worked with people and I've hired writers in the past who didn't do a very good job of positioning themselves as experts. But they always came through for me and that was the person I would go to immediately. So to me, I didn't think of it as expertise, but that, you know what I thought of them as? She's a pro, She's a real pro. So maybe use that word right, if you're having trouble with it.

Yeah, no, I like that. I like pro. So this reliability thing, it's like, it sounds so mundane and so many people don't do it. It's shocking. Like it's Just shocking to me. I mean I've hired people, like I've seen them, I've seen their work. Like I thought I knew who they were and they ghost me or you know, like something happens and they don't communicate and it just shocks me to my shoes really. Like it's so easy, it's so easy to be a good contractor, you know, like you just, you need to communicate and you need to be reliable. But people like even there and this kind of crosses into the expertise because I think there's this sense that like maybe I'm bugging you, right? If I'm the contractor and you're the client, like I don't want to reach out or I'm not really your employee and what do you expect? And this is where processes will really save you because like great communication is really important, reliability is really important. And you know, they're not that common. I don't realize that. I mean it seems to me they should be, but they're just flat out not. And so that's another way you can be really ahead of the game is like take great care of people. You, you said it. Do what you say you're going to do. Like that simple, right?

Be the pro. Be the pro that you know what they think of. It's like that's the pro that we want for this because she's going to come through or he's going to come through. And they're easy to work with. That's the other ease of doing business with. I guess, you know, you and I came from, again, it's a different background and these were must haves. There was no way in most businesses these are just assumed. If you don't do this, it's so cutthroat that you're just not gonna make it. So to me it was always assumed that, you know, if I gave you a deadline and I pulled several all nighters before, by the way, I made sure that I met that deadline no matter what. I could be sick. I did it. And in fact I said that in my copy. I would say that I am the copywriter who's never miss the deadline. I forget how I phrased it. I did it a little more creatively. But I think that is a great place to start that many of us take for granted. I want to ask you a little bit, and I'd like to spend a little bit of time with you on questions and how to ask better questions. Because I feel in terms, I want to be really practical here with this discussion. I really want to kind of get in the weeds there with you. But before we do that, any other elements that you feel are important to. Again, going back to original idea of presenting yourself as more of an expert and not just an order taker all the time. Any other elements you feel are important that we haven't talked about?

Yeah, I mean, I think the one other thing that we've sort of talked about a little sideways is your craft. Right. I mean, you want to keep the saw sharp. And I think if you stay a student of your craft, then you'll feel like you're on top of things. But I want us to be really careful to tell people. It doesn't mean that you need to be like following 20 people and reading.

20 books a week, taking 10 courses a month.

Yeah, you really don't. You really need to just focus on your processes and how you deliver and focus on improving your craft. And I think keep the blinders on a little bit too, because it's just so easy to think everyone else is more expert than you are or better than you are, and you've got no clue. I mean, you just have no clue what's going on inside of anyone else's business. So I think it's that it's like, just make sure that you're improving, right? That you're working on yourself and that you're, you know, you'll get that naturally from doing client work. You'll just get better from practice. But I think those two things, if you're, you know, sharpening the saw of your craft and keeping that fresh, and make sure that you've, like, keep improving your client experience. Like, ask your clients, Ask them. Ask them what worked, ask them what didn't. Ask them how you can deliver a better experience if you're comfortable with that, or analyze it yourself. Reflect after each project what went well, what didn't. What could I have done differently? What could I do better? And learn from all your projects and just keep improving and give yourself credit for hanging in there and for doing the work that will keep improving you, because that's the work, you know, that's the work of staying the course.

So true. I'm going to name a couple of the things that came to mind as I was listening to you, and we've kind of touched on this, but indirectly. One of them is what I harp on all the time, which is positioning, I find, and I work with a lot of writers and solo marketers on their positioning, and I find that so many of them are undervaluing. Themselves and being very, very understated. And I know their background in many cases, and I'm not seeing it being communicated. And right away I said, what about your degree from mit? What's going on there? Oh, but I don't want to talk about that. It's like, are you out of your mind? And I'm giving you. That's a real example, by the way. But it's not unusual. I think, in our society, we've been brought up not to brag, but to me, there's a fine line between bragging and just showcasing, you know, your experience, your expertise, your track record. So I think positioning is really, really important. Talk about what you've done for others. Talk about whom you've worked with. Talk about your credentials, your experience, your years of experience. Oh, but I don't want to talk about it because believe me, that right there can make all the difference. You'll never know how many people just kind of skipped over you and went to somebody else who really highlighted everything they had. So positioning is a really big one. And then the other one is showcase what you know through written content. Right. It's so, so important in, oh, well, people don't, you know, there's already so much out there, or who's going to read that, or I don't want to feel like I. I'm bragging, or I don't want people to think that I'm a know it all. But here's the thing that most freelancers don't recognize is I don't really care when I'm writing my stuff. Honestly, I know this is gonna sound bad. I don't really care who's reading or not reading it. But guess what? If I put it out there, someone will. And if they will, they're gonna get a better understanding of how my head works. You know, my thinking. Right. My perspective. And that's what I want. It's not that I want to reach everybody. It's not that I want everybody to agree with me to read. It is for the few who do. I want them to get to know me a little better. And, man, you even have just have a few people reading your stuff. That's really what matters.

Yes. And, you know, it's interesting that you say that because, I mean, I kind of think positioning solves everything. I really do. I think it's so much is about positioning and how you. How you're positioned, how you put yourself in relation to whatever situation. It's so funny that you say that too, because I have a client I've been working with for years who's got a PhD. I mean, he's barely using it, like, barely talking about it now. It's been a real struggle for him to talk about that and to, you know, kind of brag on himself and his expertise. I mean, he's barely using it, like, barely talking about it now. It's been a real struggle for him to talk about that and to, you know, kind of brag on himself and his expertise. And I think people don't realize too, how much like all of those things tie into to what you do and who you are. And it's really relevant and it's. And your point is so well taken. I mean, we are taught not to brag, right? I mean, we're, you know, we don't talk about money. So it's really hard for us to like, have that money conversation sometimes with clients because that's taboo. We're not supposed to brag. We're supposed to be humble and quiet. But this is a situation where you really have to learn to blow your own horn. And you can do it in a gracious way. I mean, you can do it without being a jerk. You really can. Especially if you're not a jerk. Chances are you're going to undersell rather than, you know, be up there screaming like, look at me, I'm so amazing. So here's the thing, too. I. I think it's really important what you said about written content. I think people get intimidated too, because they think it, like it has to be thought leadership, or it has to be original thought, or it has to be earth shattering, or it has to be really meaningful. And the truth is people don't need original thought, but they need your thought, right? If they're going to hire you, are thinking about you, they want to know what you think, and they don't care if you think the same thing that 28 other people think, fine, that's great. I just care what you think. And if 28 other people have an opinion and you don't, it's harder to choose you because I don't know what you think. And I don't need to know what you think about, you know, anything major. But I need, like, if you're a copywriter, I need to know what you think about message matching or states of awareness or whatever it is. Talk to me about something that you know more about than I do. And then I go, oh, oh, this Ed knows something. Wow, that's really interesting. Okay. Yeah. You know, I read that Amy Bosner wrote that. Something like that, too. But, okay, so, oh, two people wrote about this. This must be real. Whatever. But now it's like, I know what Ed thinks, and so now I can be interested in you and I can choose you, and that's it. I mean, it's really. I think people get so intimidated about what to say that they don't say. And, you know, you don't have to have an original opinion, but you have to have an opinion, and chances are good that you do, right?

I mean, absolutely. Well, not only opinion, but, hey, guess what? Add any element of story and you've just made it interesting, right? Any element to story, an example, an analogy, a metaphor, add some color to it, and immediately you got something that somebody's going to want to read. And that's. I think, you know, we could take. Give me any topic I can quickly name, rattle off 27 different ways you could talk about it. That would be interesting, you know, but I think we always think, oh, no, but that's already been said. This has already been written about so much. I guarantee you. You could bring in a story from your personal life, your upbringing, an example of an application of that with a client of yours recently. You've just given it your own angle, and that's what people want. It's sure, they don't want the same thing rehashed, but give it some sort of twist. And especially most of my audiences, writers, this is what we've been trained to do, right? It's not like, oh, gosh, I wish I had a writer who could do this.

Exactly, exactly. And I think we get a little shy about that, too, because, you know, it's one thing to do it for somebody else, but like, your own opinion and your own stuff. And it's like, you know what? Like, at the beginning, no one's looking anyway, and you'll develop a voice. And it's just really. I think it's really, really important. I think it's important for your own. You know, you asked earlier about, like, the confidence and how do you get to feel sort of like an expert? And I think that's part of the ownership. It's not like you have to develop this expertise to talk about it, but you talk about what you do and you kind of surface yourself as an expert, right? Because you realize, oh, yeah, I know. It's like there's also that curse of knowledge, right? You don't know what everyone else doesn't know. And you do. You sort of take things for granted. And I think you have to be really clear about what you know. And I think you just have to find a way to, to express it. But don't worry that it's, you know, that it's earth shattering or new. I think your idea, you bring your twist to it, you tell your story. I read something like that this morning and it was a pretty ordinary thing about copy, but. But she brought in this war correspondence story and I couldn't stay out of it. I was like, what happens next? Why is she tying these together? And it, you know, and it wasn't rocket science, but it was her story and she had been in this war zone and I was fascinated. Like, she just kept giving snippets of war zone and then a little bit of marketing. It was like, oh, yeah, it was. Yeah. So that sort of thing, it just made it really, really interesting. Was the marketing stuff new? No. Was it fascinating? Absolutely. Did it make me, you know, respect her and be more interested in her? It really did. I was like, oh, wow, this is cool. I didn't know that this person, you know, had this depth of thought or had this experience and it just drew me to her. So. Your point well taken.

Yeah. And don't use the number of likes or comments. If we're talking about LinkedIn, for example, posting your own content, don't use that as the measuring stick, you know, don't. Again, you have to look at it differently. It's like you're, you're putting this out there. So when people do land on your website, for example, or your LinkedIn profile, so they can get a glimpse into your thought process, into how you think who you are as a person, that's only really the only people who count. So I don't. Because I think we compare ourselves to celebrities and people who are getting. And listen, I do it too. I'm reading stuff on LinkedIn and somebody wrote something really silly. Three sentences. There was like no thought to it. 747 likes, you know, 800 comments, whatever. And look, I'm human. Like, quickly I go, wow, how come I'm not getting that? I mean, I've put a lot of thought into what I write, but, you know, you can't use that. You can't compare along those lines. Amy, I'm going to say something and I'm curious to get. Hopefully you'll agree with me, but if not, that's cool too. I want. Because I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the listener. It's like, ed, that sounds easy for you because, well, you know, You've got this confidence. And I want everyone to know, like, first of all, confidence is all relative. Okay? I struggle with confidence, too. But let me tell you, the confidence that you're hearing now was not natural born confidence. I wish you could see me as a kid, as a teenager, as someone in my 20s, just kind of starting out, I was terrified. I mean, like unhealthy levels of terror, you know, and shyness. I couldn't even. I remember in my 20s, I had to give a presentation to my boss's boss. In fact, I was a college student. I had nothing on the line. I was in a co op program, Work one semester, go to school one semester, I'm just there. They have to have me to meet their requirements. There's nothing at stake. I had to go through this report to my boss's boss. There was a room of five people in there. I couldn't even talk, my voice was shaking, I was trembling, and my boss had to finish because I couldn't do it. So I'm telling you, the way it happens is little by little, you push yourself one step at a time, you know, and then you get a success, you get a win, you get a breakthrough, and then that feeds your confidence. The confidence comes later. So I, I want to put that out there because I don't want people to shut us out thinking, well, yeah, but they got all this confidence. Listen, one baby step at a time. So I don't know your experience, Amy, with that, your thoughts?

Yeah, I, I think the truth is we all experience that all the time, just at different levels, right? I mean, yeah, right through.

And then that feeds your confidence. The confidence comes later. So I want to put that out there because I don't want people to shut us out thinking, well, yeah, but they got all this confidence. Listen, one baby step at a time. So I don't know your experience, Amy, with that, your thoughts.