How Your Mindset Is Making You Sick & Age Faster | Dr. Ellen Langer

Can you first define what you call a mindless state?

Yeah, it's interesting because when you're mindless, you're not there. And so you're not there to know you're not there. And this 50 years of research has shown that virtually all of us are not there almost all the time. So it's when we're behaving like robots. The past is determining the present. We're oblivious to subtle changes, to context. Our behavior tends to be rule and routine governed. You do today what made sense yesterday, even if it no longer makes sense. And the flip side of that, being mindful. When people hear the word mindfulness, Kim, they tend to think meditation. And mindfulness, as I study it now, has nothing to do with meditation. Meditation is great. Sort of take yourself out of the world and sit still for 20 minutes twice a day in the hopes of the meditation leading you to post-meditative mindfulness. Mindfulness, as we studied, is more immediate. It's so simple, it almost defies belief when we start talking about all the incredible consequences that follow from being mindful. All you need to do is notice. Remember, people don't realize they're not noticing. And most of the time, again, we're just not there. So how do you notice things? Two ways of becoming mindful. One is top-down, the broad way, which is to recognize, accept, come to understand that uncertainty is the rule, not the exception. Everything is always changing. Everything looks different from different perspectives. So you can't know without tuning in. Okay? And when you know, you don't know. If you knew what I was going to say next, you wouldn't listen to what I was going to say, right? Recognizing that you don't know, you pay attention. It's just that simple. The other way of becoming mindful, which leads you to the same place, is bottom up. So here, If you start to notice, let's say 3— there's nothing magical about 3, 2, whatever. But let's say 3 new things about things you think you know. You come to see you didn't know them as well as you thought you did in the first place. So walk outside, notice 3 new things. If you are in a relationship, notice 3 new things about the person. When you're at work, notice 3 new things, 3 new ways you can do whatever it is you're doing. And so on. And each time you do this, where you find new ways of looking at the same old, same old, you come to realize that in some sense, everything is potentially brand new. And it's interesting because I maintain, and I've got a lot of research that supports that, that essentially we should be mindful all the time now because people don't really understand what mindfulness is. That scares them. Because they think essentially it's thinking. And even thinking, even thinking has gotten a bad rap. It's not thinking that's hard or uncomfortable. It's the worry that you're not going to come up with the right answer, that the thinking is going to be wrong. But so mindfulness is just simply noticing. And as you're noticing, the neurons are firing. And 50 years of research has shown It's literally and figuratively in life. So when you're having a good time, it's because you're there, you're noticing. When you travel, you pay a lot of money to see new things, oblivious to the fact that everything at home is also brand new, but you see it only as same old, same old. So noticing these new things puts you in the present, makes you sensitive to context, perspective, it leads you to— you would still have rules and routines, but they're not going to determine what you do. They're sort of going to guide you. And when they no longer make sense, you're going to give them up. And so when I tell people that almost all of us, almost all the time, are mindless, of course, nobody believes it, because when you're thinking about it, you're not being mindless. It's easy to notice when other people are mindless. So one thing I tell people, the one fact I think across the globe, I even stumped ChatGPT with this. People believe 1 1 2, right? That's just true. But it turns out it's not always true. So if you are going to add, let's say, one wad of chewing gum plus one wad of chewing gum, 1 1 1. You're going to add one pile of laundry to one pile of laundry. 1 1 is 1. You add one cloud to one cloud. Oh my goodness. In the real world, 1 1 probably doesn't equal 2 as more often as it does. Now, what's the point of that? The point is when you mindlessly assume 1 1 is 2, you have no choice. You don't think. You just, like a robot, answer 2. Now that you know that it can be 1, it can be 2. Actually, you know, 1 and 1 is 2 only if you're using a base 10 number system. If you're using a base 2 number system, 1 plus 1 is written as 10. Oh my gosh. The answer to the question, how much is 1 plus 1? Can be 10, can be 2, can be 1. All of a sudden you have choice. When you're mindless, you don't have choices. Robots don't have choices. Also, you know, it's interesting how late in the game and talking about this, this occurred to me that robots can't be happy, right? They don't experience emotions. And so why anybody would ever choose to live their life painting by numbers, live your life like a robot, is beyond me. And that's— but it's not that surprising because our parents, our schools, newspapers, experts are usually teaching us absolutes. 1 1 2. And so as soon as you know something absolutely, it becomes uninteresting. Let me tell you, I was one of these people. I mean, I was a straight-A student because I knew everything, all the absolutes the teacher wanted me to tell. I was at this horse event, and this man asked me, Can I watch his horse for him? Because he wants to get his horse a hot dog. Hot dog. I knew nobody knew better as well, but not better. Horses don't eat meat. And I thought it was ridiculous, right? I said, sure, I'll watch your horse. He came back with the hot dog and the horse ate it. And that's when I realized everything I thought I knew could be wrong, which for me was very exciting because it opened up a world of possibility. And so when we think about the things we're sure of, we conflate— we mistake high probability with absolute. Science only gives us probabilities. Science only gives us best guesses. So if you were to do a study with horses, we'd have to say these kinds of horses who weigh this amount, who haven't eaten in this amount of time, When given grain mixed with this amount of meat, most of them don't eat it. It's a mouthful, right? So what do we say? Horses don't eat meat, which is simply wrong. All of our facts are probably wrong in some context. But the more important piece is once you don't— once you know you don't know, then you sit up and pay attention.

You mentioned this idea of being mindlessness is becoming our default mode, particularly in our society. Is this more of a recent phenomenon and a rising case for modern generations that did not exist as much in our ancestors? And why do you think that is if that's the case?

Well, I'm not sure that it is, so I don't have to explain why. But certainly, you know, I've said that I've been doing this work for 50 years, and my guess is people didn't become mindless the day I started studying. So these findings go back quite some time. I don't know if we look at ancient populations or what we would find. I think that The more we think that learning facts will lead us to be successful, the more likely it is we're going to end up mindless because we just take these facts in as if they're true, don't think about them again. And then we become trapped by the substantive implications of those when circumstances change. Let me give you a simple example. I ask people, where do you live, Sean?

First of all, I'm between Miami and Brazil.

Okay, so both warm climates. But if you learned how to drive in climates that were not warm and you'd have to experience snow, so you'd be taught how you drive a car when you're on ice. And what do you do when the car starts to skid? Well, almost to a one, people will tell you, you gently pump the brakes. Okay. Now that made sense a long time ago. Now that we have anti-lock brakes, the way to deal with a car when it's skidding on ice is to firmly hit the brakes. So that's interesting, isn't it? You learn for safety's sake how to drive. Gently pump the brakes. And you now, you know what you keep doing it for the rest of your life. You're driving this way. Circumstances change. And now, even though you are intending to drive safely, you're in fact putting yourself in harm's way. So the point is, things are always changing and we tend to hold things still in our minds and think that that's the reality. But the reality is new every day. It's new, and that's exciting. It should be.

Absolutely. And one of the things that people still have a harder time grasping is this idea of a mind and body connection. We in the West traditionally have separated the mental versus physical, and obviously your work is really corely centered around trying to go against that grain. Why do you think it is that the West have such a hard time combining the two between the mind and the body.

I don't think people have a hard time. I think it just doesn't occur to them. You know, most people don't realize they bought into mind-body dualism. This is what they're taught. You know, think about it. How you feel is separate from your physical being and so on. There was no reason for them to question it. And these are smart people, people who would prosper from recognizing mind-body unity. But, you know, people start out believing— I think it was way back, Descartes said, you know, talked about mind-body dualism, and then everybody fell into line. What's interesting to me, or one of the things about it, is that everybody has had the experience of their minds and bodies connecting. Now, you're walking down the street in the fall, even the fall in Brazil, where it's warm, and a leaf blows in your face or something like that happens. And all of a sudden you get startled. Your blood pressure increases, your pulse increases. Until you realize it was just a leaf. Nothing happened. All right. And so, or you see somebody regurgitating on the side of the road and all of a sudden you feel sick yourself. Nothing is happening to you. And men probably have a lot of experiences with pornography where there's nothing happening, but their minds are at work and their bodies follow suit. What was interesting to me was that from the beginning, this is almost 50 years ago, or when it was in 1979, you can do the arithmetic. I did the first study assessing mind-body unity. So that's a long time ago. And the study, which I'll describe in a moment, is a famous study. I can immodestly call my own study famous because if you tune into The Simpsons Go to Havana, they talk about the study. So if The Simpsons talk about it, it must be out. Nevertheless, so this has been out there. I've been writing books, doing research, talking almost in my mind endlessly about this. And I think I've had some effect on the world. But the world has gotten to the point where they talk about mind-body connection. I am not talking about connection. Now, let's go back to mind-body dualism. The question of interest is, How do you get from this fuzzy thing called a thought to something material called the body? How does the mind affect the body? And so when you now talk about mind and body connected, it doesn't solve the problem. How are they connected? And so 50 years ago, I said, let's not worry about that. These are just words, mind and body. Let's put them back together. And if we put the mind and body back together as a single unit, wherever you're putting the mind, you're necessarily putting the body, which gives us an enormous amount of control over our health and well-being. And what's interesting is that we've had examples of this that everybody has accepted for decades and still didn't recognize that it makes no sense unless you see it as a single unit. And I'm referring to placebos. So a person takes a nothing. You take sugar, a sugar pill. So for it to be a placebo, it has to be inert, right? But you believe it's going to make you better. And lo and behold, oftentimes that's exactly what happens. Now, how does that happen? And I think personally that placebos are probably our strongest medication. But we all have had instances where our thoughts get the better of us. You know, you get yourself stressed and what happens is your, your body suffers because of this. So anyway, by putting the two together, we have so many studies that I think help support the idea that we should be talking about mind-body unity. The counterclockwise one that I alluded to was the first test of this. So what we did was we retrofitted a retreat to 20 years earlier. We didn't have the money to do it as a Hollywood— we used a monastery, took out anything religious. We put up posters. We had books from the time. We did it as well as we could do with a limited budget. And then we had elderly men live there as if they were their younger selves. So in all ways, they were going to be 20 years younger. They were going to be talking about topics from the past, watching TV and movies from the past as if they were just happening.

Were their mirrors removed so they don't see themselves?

Yeah, yeah, the mirrors removed. And we also had them taking care of themselves just as they would have, making their own meals and so on. It was less than a week. Nevertheless, by having their minds go back in time, we found their vision improved, their hearing improved, their strength, their memory. and they look noticeably younger, not 20 years younger, truth be told, but still young, all from just putting themselves in a different place. So that was a long time ago. And I, you know, if we have time, I'll tell you a couple of the others because there's so many of these studies that are really exciting when you see how much we can change just with our minds. So the next study I did with Ellie Crum when she was at Harvard with me, and now she's a professor at Stanford, what we did was to take chambermaids. So these are women who are cleaning hotel and motel rooms all day long. We asked them, how much exercise do you get? They don't get any exercise because they're just too tired. They thought exercise is what you do afterward. And afterwards, they've just— there's no way. All right. So we divide them into two groups. Very simple study. And we teach one of the groups that their work is actually like exercise. Making a bed is like working at this machine at the gym and so on. So you have two groups. One group that realizes their work is exercise. Another group that doesn't realize their work is exercise. We take so many measures before we start. And then at the other end, turns out the groups are not working any harder, one or the other. They're not eating any differently. Nevertheless, the group that changed their minds and seeing their work as exercise lost weight. There was a change in waist-to-hip ratio, body mass index, and their blood pressure came down just by changing that. And I don't know how complicated you want me to make this for people. I can talk about other mind-body unity studies, but what's interesting here, this is really a test of the nocebo effect. So a placebo, you take nothing, you think it's something and it works. A nocebo effect is you do something but you think it's nothing and it doesn't work. Right. So they've gotten rid of, removed the effects of exercise. All right, let me go to the last of all these studies. But there are so many on all different diseases in between. But the last one, most recent with Peter Arnold, my graduate student now, we inflict a wound. Not a big wound because that wouldn't be nice, but a wound nonetheless. So individually, person's got a wound, they're in front of a clock. Unbeknownst to them, the clock is rigged. So the clock is going twice as fast as real time, half as fast as real time, or real time. And the question we're asking is, does that clock time, that perceived passage of time, affect how long it will take for the wound to heal? Now, most people would assume it's going to heal when it heals, right? But that's not what we found. The wound heals based on perceived touch. It's sort of remarkable. We have people and I have a lot of these studies with cloaks where we have people have type 2 diabetes and we're going to have them— the setup here will make sense at the end. But after we take lots of measures, we're going to have them play computer games. And they're told, "Change the game you're playing every 15 minutes or so." That's just to ensure they'll look at the clock. And again, the clock is going twice as fast as real time, half as fast as real time, or real time. And what we find is blood sugar level follows perceived time. We have people wake up in a sleep lab. The clock tells them they got 2 hours more sleep than they got. 2 hours fewer or the amount of sleep they got. Psychological, physical, physiological responses follow perceived time. Just the beginning of the sorts of things we can do to affect our well-being.

Yeah, this is why it's so fascinating with the way you've carried out the study, because I think a lot of us can understand and relate to thoughts that have come into our minds and how it can affect our bodies for the negative. Someone is stressful, somebody's tired, or somebody has a lot of fears or anxiety because of something that's happened in the past or what could be happening in the future. Then we feel tired, perhaps we have acne breakouts, or we lose our digestion. And so we know a lot of the things that we can relate to that's in the negative. But you— what you're saying is, well, if we can actually do that to our bodies just with our minds in the negative, why not do that in the positive? Why can't we also do that? So that logically should make sense, and you've proved that with a lot of the studies that you're doing, which is so fascinating.

Now, one of these studies, um, we have several studies on fatigue. Now, Now, again, people think you're going to get tired when you get tired. That's all there is to it. But no, our being tired is very much a function of context. So before I tell you one of our studies, I'll tell you the simplest one. Frank Beach did this study. I love this study. It was back in the '50s, whatever. So he takes a little boy rat and he introduces a little girl rat, and they copulate until the little boy rat can't take it anymore. He needs a refractory period. However, if immediately you introduce a new little girl rat, he's ready to go right away. Okay, so his exhaustion is context-specific. All right, so we have people, um, oh, I'll ask you to do 100 jumping jacks and tell me when you get tired. So most people get tired around 70. And we take another group of people and we say, we want you to do 200 jumping jacks. Tell us when you get tired. They get tired around 140. All right. So our assumption of how big the activity is leads us to decide without us being aware that we're making any decision. When we're going to get tired. And we tend to get tired around two-thirds of the way through the activity. So this idea of just changing context is very important. If, as you're saying, we want to have a positive influence on what we're doing, just with fatigue, for example.

And from your experiments, I'm curious to know the delta differences between someone that's actually didn't have, I guess, the nocebo effect versus someone that did. I'm curious, like, are there— obviously, there's limits to how much the mind can actually override the body.

No, no, you say obviously there are limits. We don't know that there are limits. I teach this health course. And so, the other day, I said to the students, How far is it humanly possible to run? So these are Harvard kids, they're very smart. And so they know, you know, that how far is a marathon? Was it 26, 27 miles? I don't even know. But so they know that can't be the limit. So they start, you know, 30, 35, somebody else, eventually somebody else, 50, everybody groans and that's the end of the conversation. And then I show them a video of the Tarahumara. Which is a tribe in Copper Canyon, Mexico. And as a rule, these people can run 200 miles. And that's vastly different. Right. And so I don't think we should be assuming limits. We should just keep— we do— working for greater effectiveness. Because if you assume a limit, my guess is, and you're teaching people how to be great runners, you probably would stop when you got to 40 miles. Right.

I mean, this is the example of the Roger Bannister, the 4-minute mile, right? With the reticular activating system where no one's ran a 4-minute mile. And as soon as this guy did it, who apparently was visualizing how he could do that, how he would feel, You know, what second he would do it at. And I think a year later there was high school students that were able to do it. And the idea is that when someone can see someone else doing it, um, they can overcome those limits. But you're saying we can actually do that without needing someone else to have done it. We can imagine and feel the emotions that we can do it, and that would help us get there.

Yeah. In The Mindful Body, I have a lot of information about language, different ways of thinking about language, but simple, not in any complicated way. And one of the things that I think people— very simple change people should make when you want to be able to do something that you haven't done. If you say to yourself, can you do it? Well, you've never done it, so there's no evidence that you can. So you're likely to believe you can't do it. And I think the better question to ask is, how do you do it? How can I do this? And if you do that, also, you bypass the ego. So you try and you fail. It just means that's not the way. And you try some other way. And I talk about, you know, Zeno's paradox with respect to distance.

I've heard of it.

Yeah. Okay. So Zeno said, if you always go half the distance, from where you are to where you want to be, you're never going to get there. So for argument's sake, you're a foot away. Now you're half a foot away. Now you're a quarter of a foot away. Now you're an eighth of a foot away. A 16th. Okay. And I said, well, Zeno was a cynic. And the reverse of Zeno's paradox, Langer's reverse of Zeno, is there's always a step small enough from where you are to where you want to get. And if you always go, you know, so let's say you can't get yourself not to eat a box of cookies a day. Well, that's silly. So eat half a box. You can't eat half a box. Okay, eat a quarter of a box. You can't eat— everybody can eat one crumb less. And then you start at a different place, you know, and build up. And something that is, I think, ironic is that people think that they want perfection, and you don't. You can either do tasks imperfectly mindfully or perfectly mindlessly. So once you've mastered it, I'll give you an example, one of my favorites. So you're a little kid and you're in the elevator and you try to reach the button and you can't. You're too short. So the adult Picks you up and you hit it. And the next time you get a little closer, you can't quite reach it. It's great fun. They pick you up. You hit it. At some point now, Sean, you're tall enough. You get in that elevator. You press the button successfully. When was the last time you got excited about hitting the button in the elevator? All right. So, you know, once you can master it, once it's so easy for you, there's no there there. And so it's the striving, the mastering, not having mastered, the mindful engagement that makes the activity fun. And to presume we can't only means we're letting yesterday's truths dictate today, which is sad. I mean, we really— it's interesting, science doesn't allow for us proving that we can't. All you can prove with science is that what you've just tried doesn't work. Doesn't mean that there isn't something else. Doesn't mean even if you try that again, it won't work. And so you put all that together and you say, well, I don't want it to work perfectly because pressing the elevator button is just no fun. You just go forward and enjoy the process. And that's what mindfulness is all about, is the process.

How can you help someone reframe their mindset when perhaps they're not thinking that they can do it? Let's say a 4-minute mile. They're saying, yeah, you know what? I probably can't do that because it's really their way of protecting themselves. When, if they say that they can do it, but then they can't, perhaps that's gonna hurt more their confidence and their ego than saying, you know what, I probably can't do it. So when they do fail, it doesn't hurt as bad. And this is the human nature of protecting the, the loss and pain.

Well, yeah. And I, but you say the loss and pain as if that's a necessary effect of trying and failing. You know, that if you just think about what I've said, that complete success. So you're a golfer and you wish you could be better. And it turns out that finally, every time you swing that club, you get a hole in one. You know, I mean, there's no game there, you know, so that we have to orient ourselves differently to what we're trying to achieve. And the small achievements are worth more than the total victory. You know, you write a book and it's wonderful. You have a baby, whatever it is, you know, you have this project, you devote yourself to it, and then finally you finish, but then you just have to start another one. So it's not like there's something at the end of all of those successes where now the game is over, which is what people don't realize. I wrote this children's book. I'll be out in October, and it's called Finding Happy. And I asked the kids to start with, well, what does happiness mean to you? Many people think to be happy, you have to be wealthy, have status, power, and be an important person in some way. And then I explained to them in children's ease that I— and I in this case is a dog that's talking to them— know lots of people who are wealthy, who have a lot of status, a lot of power and are not happy. That's not the way to be happy. And as long as we think it is, then every move we make, we feel we're testing ourselves in that if we don't succeed, the world is going to— everything is going to fall apart. And I should let you ask me a question because I'm going to tell you how to be happy, which is Please. Okay. You know, once you recognize that, you know, Sean, you mentioned at the beginning about all the findings that I have. And some of them, I mean, I have the early findings on mindfulness. We make older people more mindful and they live longer. I mean, you know, very big things. And when you read The Mindful Body, you'll see I have psychological treatment for chronic illness. Big and exciting. But the thing that was most exciting to me in all of these 50 years of working on this was when I realized the very simple thing that behavior makes sense from the actor's perspective, or else the actor wouldn't do it. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, today I'm going to be obnoxious, gullible, aggressive, inconsistent. And so What happens is it turns out that when you're taking yourself to task or somebody else is taking you to task and you're looking at yourself, you look back on your performance from that perspective, say, oh my God, how could I have done that? So let's take me. I'm off the edge of the gullible continuum. Really, it's pathetic. So I'm going to try to change and try. I'm always going to fail. Because going forward, my intention is not to be gullible. Going forward, I'm trusting. And because I'm trusting, I'm necessarily on occasion going to be gullible. Now, if you want me to not be gullible, the only way that can happen is if I agree not to be trusting. But, you know, I value being trusting, so I'm not going to change that. So let's say you are so inconsistent you drive your friends and family crazy, and you want to stop that. You're going to try to stop being inconsistent. Nobody goes forward in this world and says, you know, today I'm going to be inconsistent. So what are you intending? You're intending to be flexible. And as long as you value being flexible, there are times you're going to be seen as inconsistent. Turns out that every single negative behavior has an equally strong but oppositely valenced alternative, a positive version. And people going forward are doing what they're doing for that positive reason and then often look back at the negative reason. So we did a study forever ago. We gave people, I think it was 200 or 300 of these behavior descriptions. We said, okay, Circle all those things that you keep trying to change and fail. So to me, being impulsive, being gullible, doesn't matter what else. Okay. Then you turn the page over and in a mixed up order are the positive versions of this. Now the task for you is circle those things you really value about yourself. For me, my spontaneity and my being trusted. So as long as I value being spontaneous, there are times I'm going to seem impulsive. As long as I value being trusting, I'm going to at times seem gullible. So what this changes everything, your respect for yourself, your respect for other people, right? So I couldn't stand you before when I thought you were inconsistent. And now that I realize it's because you're flexible. I feel differently about it and I'd feel different about myself. So how to be happy? Well, the first thing is to recognize that your behavior makes sense going forward from your perspective, or else you wouldn't have done it. And so now that you respect yourself, it's easier to like yourself. And then I have a little acronym. Yes. That I use for the rest of this, which is GLADDO. I'm surprised with all the things we have to talk about, John, this is what I'm talking about. But still, this is near and dear to my heart. That's great.

Yes.

GLADDO. G stands for being generous. L stands for being loving. A stands for being authentic. D stands for being direct. O stands for being open. GLAD. Now, the good thing about this is you could start anywhere, but each of them lead to the others, and all of them are increased by being mindful. And each of these leads us to be more mindful. And the more people we can get to practice GLADo, the happier they will be. And I think the happier the world would be. I have a slide when I used to run around giving these talks. Now I seem just to be doing this podcast. And when I define mindlessness and mindfulness, it says that most of our problems, whether they're personal, interpersonal, professional, local, or global, are the direct or indirect effect of our mindlessness. And then I say to people, because I wrote it, I felt I had to say most of our problems just among us and the other 10, 15 million people I've said this to. I really believe all of our problems That's a very big statement. So put it all together and becoming mindful is so easy. You just have to know you don't know. And you shouldn't feel bad about not knowing because nobody knows. So you make a personal and universal attribution for uncertainty. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. So let's sit up and pay attention. It's just that easy. And when you're doing that, you feel good. The neurons are firing. It's when you feel best, when you fall in love, you're eating something you like. It's the essence of being engaged. So it feels good and it's good for you. And then our problems seem to just sort of fade. You just can sit back. You come to realize that events— and this is something Epictetus said way back when. I'm not the the first to have said this, not even the first in English. But he said that events don't cause stress. What causes stress are our views of events. Now, events are neither good nor bad. Events are nothing until we think about them and make them something, understand them as good, bad, or indifferent. And the more mindful you are, the more you can take anything and understand it from a different perspective. And so when you recognize right now, most people are stepping over other people, scared, what have you, in the pursuit of all these good things, and they run away from all the bad things. When you're mindful, just be still. So I was talking about this on another podcast, and I used as an example, which is very funny. I said, okay, look, let's say my internet goes out now. What will that mean? To me, it won't mean anything. The internet goes out, I'll go and I'll have lunch, and it's no big deal. Well, the funny thing, Shawn, was that my internet then went out and I did indeed go and have lunch. That most of the things we get crazed about are really not that big. In fact, I have several one-liners and friends of mine going to write them out and put them on their refrigerators to remind them. One is, next time you're stressed, ask yourself, is it a tragedy or an inconvenience? It's almost never a tragedy. In fact, if you think about the last 5 things you were stressed about, my guess is none of them even happened. And so when you recognize that if something happens, the way you understand it's happening will determine your response to it. And there's always a way of understanding it so that it's calming rather than stressful, then you don't have to be afraid of things. You just let things unfold as they unfold.

Could we dig deeper into this awareness aspect?

Right.

Because we talked about some of these limited beliefs that we have about ourselves and how we can shift that around. But sometimes there's things that we don't even know that we're not that we're not aware of. Like, we don't know necessarily in our minds that we're limiting ourselves. This is just this unconscious or subconscious beliefs.

No, it doesn't have to be unconscious. I mean, you're told by your parents when they're not such good parents, you're told by your teachers, you're given grades, you're told you're a C student. That's it. And you just sort of accept it without questioning. If you were a C student then, does that mean you're a C person now? And who was the person that was evaluating you? And what was the yardstick that was being used? And so on. I spend a lot of time actually talking about that in The Mindful Body.

So how do we be aware of those for people that have told that story automatically without actually stopping and saying, hey, maybe this isn't true. And how can we rewire that?

Okay. One of the titles instead of The Mindful Body, one of the titles I had been thinking of before I chose The Mindful Body was Who Says So? And who says so? I say everybody should go back to when they were 3 years old, where no matter what you were told, you said, well, who says so? You shouldn't eat, you shouldn't go swimming until half hour has passed and you've eaten. Who says so? And when you do the who says so, you come to realize again that even if it's science, science doesn't tell us absolutes. Science only gives us probabilities, which means for some people it's true some of the time, not necessarily for all of us. And all we need to do is question. Is this true for me right now? How can I know? But also realizing if we think a little bit about what I said before, despite our desire for perfection, we really don't want it because then it'll be hitting that elevator, swinging a golf club and getting a hole in one each time. There's no there there. So the very thing we think we want is not what we should be pursuing. Now, so what does that mean? So somebody doesn't think they're very good, I think, which I find very sad. In fact, let me tell you something that happened that— well, let me just tell you the situation. So we were having a very large delivery. And my partner was in the furniture business and this large delivery was gonna be put in the basement. And I saw this truck and the amount of furniture. I said, no way is that going to fit in that space. Now, I don't know if you know, Sean, I've been declared a genius, Genius Award, and, you know, at Harvard, Yale, and all of this. I mean, clearly I'm smart. And so when I say it's not going to fit, it's not going to fit. The person who was in charge of putting all of the stuff away was uneducated. Somebody who— type of person you were describing a moment before, who I imagine sees himself as much of a loser. The world hasn't told him all the ways he's wonderful, which is very sad. Missing some of his teeth and so on. Anyway, he put all of the furniture in that space, not only got all of it in, but all of it was accessible. And when I saw that, I realized there's just something unfair about this. You know, why should he, who has all of these skills, see himself as a failure? And why should I foolishly think just because I've done some things right, that I necessarily can do everything. And so I wrote a little song. My Harvard students sing this with me, a song that I taught my grandkids when they were 5. I'm not gonna sing it for you, although I should because it's so much fun. Yeah. Everybody can't do something. Everyone can do something else. Everyone doesn't know something. Everyone knows something else. And what is the point? The point of this is that right now the world exists in vertical, right, where I sit somewhere near the top here. Top, right. And I think that it should be horizontal where we recognize that all of us have special things we can do. Now, the interesting thing for me is that obviously the person you're thinking of who doesn't think well of him or herself needs to be helped and shown that, gee, that's a shame. It doesn't have to be that way. But even the people, the A students. All right. So, you know, we get— they get their A's. I've gotten all of my A's. You can't be sure why you got it. You can't be sure you're going to get it again. Everybody expects you to get it. So if you don't get it, it's very stressful. The whole idea of evaluating people, whether winner or loser, doesn't seem to me to win, to be good for us individually or as a culture. So I start this video and I say, introduce myself. Hi, I'm Ellen Langer. I love to sing, but I can't sing. But why shouldn't I sing? There are other things that I can do. And then the chorus of Harvard students behind me starts singing, everybody doesn't know something, but everyone knows something else. So for us to recognize, and you add that you don't want to know everything fully because then you're back to hitting that elevator button, which is a non-event. Getting a hole in one every time you're playing golf and so on. People think they just want to win. You want to win, play tic-tac-toe against a 5-year-old. So we know on some level that that's not what we want. And what we have to do when circumstances are hard, if we're mindful, is understand alternative ways of seeing. The circumstance. I had an aha experience many years ago. I talk about it in the book. I had come home from dinner at a friend's house, and all of my neighbors was then around Christmas. All of my neighbors were outside because my house had gone up in smoke. So I lost 80% of what I owned. So pretty stressful, right? And they The next day I called the insurance company and he comes out and he says in the 25 years he's been doing the job, this was the first time where the damage was worse than the call. Usually, oh my God, oh my God. He goes out there, it's no big deal. But for me, I had already lost whatever I lost. I didn't see throwing my sanity after it would be useful. Now I move into the Charles Hotel. There's a moral to the story. It's going to take me a minute or two to get there. I move into the Charles Hotel and I'm a sight to be staying with my two dogs. It's around Christmas. Okay. I go, so I know the different people in the hotel. I've been living there for, I guess, two weeks or whatever. And I come back Christmas Eve and I was floored, Sean. My room was full of gifts, not from the owner of the hotel. Not from the management, but from the so-called little people, the people who parked my car, the chambermaids, the waiters and waitresses. It took me years to be able to tell the story without it bringing tears to my eyes. Now, what is the larger point is that it would seem that having a major fire would be terrible. Clearly negative. No way to spin it. But in fact, I don't remember anything that I lost. All I remember every single Christmas was the kindness of all of these people. So the fire brought me more joy than whatever the possessions are that I lost would have brought me. You know, that whether something feels good or bad is not a function of the it. Events don't cause our emotions. What causes our emotions are the views we take of that. If you're brought up to believe that X is horrible, you're only going to experience it as horrible. And if you ask yourself, how else might I understand that? How might this be a good thing? In fact, I suggest to people, because stress is, to my mind, the major killer. That events don't cause stress. So the next time you're worried about something, and if you say to yourself, first, the mistake we make is thinking we can predict. So you say to yourself, because to be stressed means you're thinking something's going to happen, and when it happens, it's going to be awful. So ask yourself, give yourself 3 reasons, 5 reasons why it might not even happen. And you immediately calm down because your acting is, oh my God, it's definitely going to happen. Maybe it won't. Then the hard part, but the more important part, imagine that it's going to happen. How might that actually be a good thing? And when you do this often enough, I've lived my life this way, you just don't get thrown by things. You know that if the internet goes out, so be it. Stays on, it's wonderful. If, you know, you have to go in for surgery, you know, okay, if you want to lose weight, you're probably going to lose weight because you're on a diet somebody else is fixing. You know that for me, if I'm in the hospital, which I was already in many, many decades ago when I smashed my ankle, But wouldn't that be terrible? And you smash your ankle. Well, it was timeout from everything. It was all of a sudden a chance for me to just be, to think, to relax, to watch some silly television, to not feel that I had to answer all the emails or write another book or paper or whatever. And by recognizing that made the whole time I was in the hospital a lot easier.

Yeah. I mean, I think it reminds me a lot of the way Stoic philosophers talk about trying to envision the worst-case scenario and practicing what that would feel like. And then in most realities, people can kind of realize that that's not as bad as they think it is based on how they thought about it.

But I'm not so in favor of that. It's sort of like people who think that it's good for them to— defensive pessimism is sort of what you're describing. Defensive pessimism is hope for the best, but expect the worst, because then you'll be prepared for it. But it turns out our expectations determine our whole life, right? Even whether or not we get tired, whether we heal, how long we think we've slept, and all of the things we've already talked about, that if you're expecting negative things, that's all you're going to see. And so I think you don't want to do that, expect the worst. You want to see how whatever happens has clearly another side to it, and that makes it less threatening. And add to that the lack of predictability so that when you see, you know, then only improbable things ever really occur anyway, it's silly to waste our time with that. You know, that if you spend your time in this defensive pessimistic stance, always trying to protect yourself from something that probably isn't even going to occur, you wear yourself down. You're stressed. If you assume that you're not being naive, you're not putting your head in the sand, but by assuming there's a way for you to cope and deal with no matter what happens, then as you go through your life, you're becoming stronger and stronger. And then if something does happen, there's a stronger you to deal with it.

Yeah. And this leads me to talk about and go deeper into the power of language and how just changing the way we describe a situation can change the outcome. What are some of the most dangerous everyday phrases that people use mindlessly without even thinking about it? Perhaps just because it's in our nomenclature of the English language. Without realizing that they're reinforcing these limitations? And which words should we replace those with?

Well, there are several that I talk about in The Mindful Body. I don't know if they are the strongest examples, which is what you're asking for, but they're commonplace. So let me tell you one about forgiveness. Okay. Now, I was asked to give a sermon at one of the Harvard churches. I'm Jewish and I'm not religious, but I say yes to everything. So I said yes. Now, what am I going to talk about? I have no idea. And I start thinking, well, forgiveness. It's not religion, but it sounds religiony. Maybe I could get away with it. So I do a deep dive thinking about forgiveness, and I come up with something, Shawn, that was almost sacrilegious, but I said it anyway. Okay, here you go. If you ask 10 people, is forgiveness good or bad? What are they going to tell you?

Good.

Right. If you ask 10 people, is blame good or bad? What are they going to tell you? It's not. It's bad. Right. But it turns out you don't forgive unless you blame. That's interesting. Our forgivers are our blamers. Now, do you blame people for good or bad things? You blame people for bad things, but things in and of themselves are neither good nor bad. So what do we have? We have people who see the world negatively, who blame, then forgive. I think that's hardly divine. Now, I think that surely if you blame, it's better to eventually forgive. But there's a better than better way. And we have spent a lot of time in The Mindful Body, talking about the better than better way across many aspects of our lives. If you understand why the person did what they did, that obviates the necessity for blame. Because remember, going forward, I wasn't being gullible. I was being trusting. You weren't being inconsistent. You are being flexible. And so when we recognize that people's behavior makes sense or else they wouldn't do it, and if we look for the sense that it makes, our relationships improve and our feelings about ourselves when we do this for ourselves improve. And so then we don't need to forgive. So understanding removes the necessity for forgiveness. Another one that is, you might tell somebody to try, you know, you have a little kid. Oh, you can do it. Just try it, Sean. Well, the word try sounds good, right? And like forgiveness, it's better than blaming, you know, to forgive. But there's a better than better way. So I started to think about trying. Now, you don't try to eat an ice cream cup. You just eat the ice cream. Just do it. Yeah. Yeah. So trying has built into it an expectation for failure. So we do some studies where we just have one group do it, another group try, and the doing it group always outperforms the trying. So when I first talked about these studies, somebody said, that was the Yoda. Yoda said that. I said, yes, good. Okay, I'll call it the Yoda studies. I don't care who said it. I care who pays attention to it and prospers from some understanding of that. Another one is the word hope. Oh, my goodness. What's the matter with me? I keep taking apart all of these things that people hold dear. Now, hope is certainly better than being hopeless, right? But hope again has built into it an expectation for failure. When I go to get coffee, I go to the kitchen in the morning to make coffee. I don't hope that there's coffee there. I just assume that there's coffee there. And so implicitly, when you're hoping, you're really believing it's not going to work. When you're trying, you're believing you're not going to be successful. When you recognize that you don't want complete success, because then we're back with that whole M1 on every shot or pressing the button in the elevator. You don't need that complete success. You just sort of allow yourself to engage whatever the activity is, and you engage it mindfully without fear of failure, because you don't fear failure when you realize you don't want complete success. You just want to be doing whatever the task is. So I have lots of these. In the book. The one, the only, the last one that I'll mention, but there are many more there, is remission. Now, you know, I, my friend Eva had a very bad case of cancer and I went to see her and she had just come back from Mass General and Harvard Hospitals. And I said, how are you? She said she's thrilled because they told her that her cancer was in remission. And at that moment it occurred to me, wait a second, if I took these same tests, they would tell me I don't have cancer. Why is it I don't have it? But she has it in remission. Because if you have it in remission, there's that fear it's going to, you know, present itself at any moment. And So then I did some research on remission versus cure. And that, you know, when you have a cold, Sean, and the cold goes away, you see yourself as cured. You don't see yourself as in remission. And because you see yourself as cured, you don't get scared as much every time you get another cold because you've cured hundreds of them. And the same with any disease. That when the disease goes away, you can see yourself as in remission, or you can see yourself as cured. If, let's say, cancer comes back, in some ways it'll be like last cancer, but in just as many ways it'll be brand new. Necessarily, nothing is exactly the same. Right. When you wake up in the morning, On Tuesday, you're not the same as you were on Monday. So if you saw it as exactly the same, then you'd have to see yourself as in remission. When you realize that if it comes back, it's different, then you can see yourself as cured. And then if you have to deal with it again, deal with it again. So we go to people who are under breast cancer awareness walk. Simply find out, did they see their cancer as in remission or cured? And then we contacted them 6 months later. And those who saw their cancer as cured rather than in remission were healthier on every single measure we took, physical and psychological.

Wow.

So the way we talk to ourselves matters. You know, again, if you see yourself, if you see the glass as half full, then you want to spend your time. You're going to be thirsty looking for where you're going to get the rest of the water. If you see it as half full, then you just go about your business.

Yeah. I want to also bring up the study you did, which I think you shifted the language of musicians. I think it was violinists, right, that were told to play this piece like it's the first time versus playing it again. And how it led to a different performance?

Well, there were whole orchestras.

Orchestras, okay.

Each of the orchestras, some of the orchestra members and some of the orchestras to being mindless, which was what we believe was typically the case because these musicians are playing the same pieces over and over and over again, which is chances are if they're playing the same way over and over and over again, then they're doing it mindlessly. So what we did was tell them, remember a time you played this piece where you really liked your performance and just replicate it. Okay. Then the mindful orchestras, we said, play this piece in a way that's subtly new, that only you would know. Make it different, just subtly different. Okay. And then they would perform and we'd tape the performances. And then we'd play it to people who had no idea about the study, and we'd just ask them how they felt about which performance they liked better and so on. We also questioned the musicians, and it turns out the overwhelming, almost unanimously, the musicians playing mindfully enjoyed their performance. Because again, when you're being mindless, different from a robot, you're not enjoying it. You're not engaged in a very important way in what you're doing. When we played it for people who knew something about music, again, they overwhelmingly preferred the mindfully played piece. So there's a way that our mindfulness leaves its imprint on what we do. And then the other thing that people don't— well, so far, at least 3 reasons we've said to be mindful. One, The neurons are firing and it's going to lead you to be healthy and live longer. Two, it's the essence of charisma and excitement that when somebody is mindful, people see and enjoy being with them and they see you as authentic and trustworthy. So your relationships improve. And it seems, as with this symphony study, it leaves its imprint on what we do, that somehow it's there and people value it more. Given how easy it is to be mindful, just this knowing you don't know. So you sit up and pay attention and you know nobody knows. You don't feel bad about not knowing. Everything changes. It's sort of remarkable. And you just feel better while you're doing it. People like you more. You like yourself more. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think this can kind of expand, as you mentioned, into relationships. So many of relationships today can feel dull after many years.

Think that you know what the person is going to say or what they're going to do.

Right. Love dies when partners believe they already know everything about each other. And talk to us a little bit about that. What are some practices we can embed so that—

No, it's easy. But if you first, if you're in a long-term relationship and just recognize when you're having an argument that you probably could just substitute numbers 23 6, 7, because you're saying the same things with very little difference over and over again. If you notice the way the person has changed from day to day, then what happens is you no longer believe you can predict exactly what they're going to say or do, but that being with them becomes more fun for that very same reason. And when you're there noticing they feel cared for. And we have research in hospitals. We want to teach physicians to do this. Burnout in hospitals is very high, right? Hospital staff. And you're going to see the person. First of all, let's say you're seeing 5 different people. If you're not recognizing the ways each are different from the other, you become more mindless, right? And there's no there there to feed you, it becomes boring, although we call it burned out rather than just boredom. But even if you're seeing the same person, Sean, if we get off now and we speak again tomorrow, you're not the same person because I've just educated you. You've educated me. Now we have some relationship. And so if I speak to you tomorrow, I should be speaking to you as if this is a new— it's new. The interaction is new and appreciated as such. And that's what happens and should be happening in relationships that often, sadly, doesn't. Now, you can get there simply every day by just noticing something. by finding out what the person did that they least expected to have done or thought or experienced that day. Together, you can do some new activity. So if neither of you have done it before, then you can't think you know exactly how the person is going to respond to it. But rather than look for the same, look for difference. It's very easy when people get stressed. All they need to do, or one of the things to do, is see how this activity is no different from the other things that they do. All right. You look for the ways it's the same. When you're bored, you look for the ways it's different. It is both the same and different. It's sort of like the proverbial brook. You know, it's the same brook. It's been there for as long as I've lived here. That's the brook. But, you know, every molecule of water is brand new. And, you know, you have to go to that level. There are always things around it that are brand new. And the way it's flowing is brand new. And noticing the subtleties makes everything exciting. Before I started to paint, If you had asked me what color are leaves, say not in the fall, I'd say green. All right. And then I start to paint. I notice, my goodness, there are hundreds. I'm sure even more than that, but I haven't stopped counting after that. Different shades of green. So this one thing becomes so many things. And that's what we need to do with our relationship, is rather than start off excited and make it smaller and smaller, is make it bigger and bigger. Notice the ways the person has changed. What we do in a general way is try to pigeonhole people, and then we think we have more control over the world. Because I know you're an ex. That's just who you are, whether we're married, barely friends, or coworkers. But if I see you as an ex, whatever that is, somebody who's finicky, somebody who's selfish, doesn't matter. It can be something positive as well. Then I feel I have some control over my world. So the very idea of holding things still and giving these grand labels to have control actually limits our control. And so with whatever I call you, whatever you call your spouse, find the times that's not the case. So you are very stingy, Sean. I am the big spender in our family. I'm the generous one. You're the stingy one. Now all I should do is look at all the times you're generous, and you'll always find that. And so now that I am aware that you're generous more often than you're stingy, I've gotten rid of that label, and now I'm going to notice that aspect of you in a more lively way. Yeah. And I could see the contradictions. Totally.

And I could see how this could be so helpful for building long-term relationships, because as soon as you bucket someone into a certain category, or if you think you figured someone out, we're naturally, as humans, wired to look for novelty. So if you think the relationship that you're in is a dull one because you figure something else, then you're naturally going to be starting to look for someone else that's outside of the relationship. And this is where things like infidelity happens. And I love this quote from Esther Perel that says, everybody falls in love with multiple people throughout their lives. Some people do it with multiple partners, and some people do it with the same partner. This idea of falling in love with the same partner over and over again, I think happens through how you've described it.

Right. If you're mindfully engaged, that will naturally happen. That in some sense, everything that's old is new again. And yeah.

And to close off here, you know, we talked about all of the benefits that could come from the power of language through opening up our minds to be more abundant. These are often— I just don't want to end the conversation without providing some actionable or practical ways that people can create cues throughout their days to actually have that awareness because oftentimes we know something is good for us, but we actually struggle to implement it into action.

And I think, yeah, this is different. This is not like eating cottage cheese and not liking cottage cheese because you think it's good for you. The very essence of this is the thing you're seeking. So it's sort of once you get started, it should snowball. What I'm saying is that when you're happy, you're only happy because you're actively noticing new things. When you're excited about something, when you're fully engaged. You can't be engaged unless you're noticing new things. So how do you get yourself to notice new things? And we said before, there are two ways, top down or bottom up. The top down is recognizing the power and uncertainty. And I think that that becomes a fun thing for people, for them to question everything they think they know. Who says so? How might it be otherwise? You know, that I'm trying to think. I think I have something in the book where I take the things that we're so certain of. I used one before where I said, you know, you're told don't go in the water. It's coming out of summer now. Don't go in the water if you've just eaten. You have to wait a half hour. This is nonsense. And, you know, so what we need to do is recognize, question virtually everything. Now, you take everything for granted. So how do you question it? Well, it's hard, but it's not that important when everything is going well. It's when things aren't going well where you have to call up all of the things we've talked about now and say, who says so? How might that actually be a good thing? How can I be sure? What makes me think it's going to lead to this or that? What else might it lead to? So the essence of being mindful is recognizing, one, that we don't know. Two, that any explanation is just one of several. And so everything becomes potentially exciting for us. We don't want to know everything because then, you know, it's like having that hole-in-one every time you swing the golf club. You know that if you know it all and you know nothing, nothing is exciting. So you realize that things are new and you make them new. You take the things that are old and you look at them in a new way. You take the things that are new that may be a little scary and find the similar ways to when they're old. You just keep questioning in a very positive way. I find, I guess I was a young kid and I was reading over a report. I was a good student, sure. Oh, he's obnoxious. And so I never waited till the last minute. But this was one event where I waited till the last minute to write this report. And I'm writing it late at night. I can't remember what class this was. And I read it over in the morning and it said, it's obvious. And I didn't know what I was talking about. And so that's another little thing that we might do is every time where we're thinking that something's clear, it's obvious to recognize it can't be when anything can be understood in so many ways. Every time you find yourself being judgmental of yourself or anybody else, you have to stop and say, wait a second, that happened for some sensible reason, or else the person or I myself wouldn't have done it. So then you start to like yourself more. You're less afraid of the world, and then you naturally will try new things. The only reason people don't try new things is because they're afraid of failing. But when you realize you don't want complete success, then you're not so afraid of failing. And when you realize that to fail this minute doesn't necessarily have any long-term implications, you know, life just becomes easier, I guess. You know, that the experience we have of any event is a function of the way we think of it. The more mindful we are, the more ways we can think of it. So the actionable— you want some actionable things. The first is to keep noticing new things about yourself, your partner, the world around you. Any time something negative happens, ask yourself how that might be positive. Any time you think you know Ask yourself how it might be otherwise. Most important, perhaps every time you're judgmental, recognize that you yourself are being mindless. And the good thing is that as we do each of these, they are self-generating because it feels good.

Yep, absolutely. Yeah. And I think this is why travel is such a hack. To accelerate that because you could just be at a different country at a same restaurant that you would normally go to, same type of food, but just because the culture and the language is different, you start to notice things everywhere.

Yeah. Do that yourself, you know, and you, you walk out your front door and act as if you're in Europe, if you're in the United States, or the reverse, United States, you're in Europe and just take on a different identity for the day and go through the world as if you're a man, as if you were a woman, if you're American, as if you were a Brazilian and so on. And you will see things differently. And it's often shocking. My goodness. You know, I think that maybe the simplest thing for people to do, but it may be, it's easy for me, but maybe it's hard for some. Is to allow themselves to be playful. And I make everything a game. It doesn't really matter what it is. It's fun. And so you ask yourself, how can this thing be fun? Now, say you're going to take some test or some meeting at work where you think your life depends on it. It's hard to make that a game, but it's not hard to to ask yourself if— this is what you were saying the moment before— that if things fall apart, how might that actually not be so bad? Stress is in our heads, not in events. The more mindful we are, the less stressed we should be. The more we recognize we don't know, the more everything becomes exciting. And the more we participate in this way of living, the more we recognize that any of our failures from the past don't have to predict anything about our future selves.

Yeah. And that's probably because you see life as a game in some ways. That is your perspective of life. And I think some people, because they don't see it that way, have a difficult time grasping that idea of your past doesn't determine your future? Because some people see life as a war, perhaps as a battle because of how they grew up. And that completely would change the way they think about mistakes or how they interact with people.

Well, you know, there are some people who, you will hear us talk now and immediately change and adopt some of this just by recognizing the power of uncertainty. There are some people who are not going to budge, who have some commitment to their unhappiness. But one of the interesting things, we have some brand new research that's very exciting that mindfulness is contagious. And so that if enough of us make the sorts of changes you and I have just been talking about, that they too will change unwittingly. And that if you're talking to somebody who's a mean so-and-so and you don't put that person down because you understand that there must be some good reason they're behaving this way, you sort of imagine Some people often expect to be face to face with somebody who's going to fight back, who's nasty. And if you're just kind, you know, they have to give in to it. So I don't know. The best thing for us to do is to help promote this. It's not really very hard as long as you recognize that all of the facts we've been fed are only true sometimes, and that simply noticing leads neurons to be firing. And as I said, it's a good place to end that 50 years of my research has shown that's literally and figuratively like it's the way to feel good. And the more you feel good, the happier you are, it's usually going to result in you being healthier. And as I've just said now, all of that has a spreading effect. So we can improve other people just by taking care of ourselves.

Yeah, great. That's awesome. Yeah, the changing the world starts with you. I think that's a beautiful way and message to end that with. I want to make sure people check out your book, Dr. Langer. The Mindful Body: Thinking Our Way to Chronic Health. We'll link that below. Where else can people find out more about you and the amazing work you've done over the last 50 years?

Thank you. Thank you. They can go to my website. I don't know how up to date it is. Ellenlanger.com or Ellenlanger.me. It all takes you to the same place. Just Google me. Apparently more information than people probably want will come. Rushing from—

Beautiful. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you everyone for tuning in.

See you next time.