18 - Imogen Maresch on why play matters for coaches (and much more!)

Welcome to the business of executive coaching. I'm Ellie Scarfe, an ex lawyer turned executive coach. Over the last 17 years I've coached in house, I've been an associate coach and I've run executive coaching businesses with teams of coaches around the world. My clients have ranged from global brand names to boutiques, startups and organizations doing good in the world. I now run the Impact Coach Collective, a a community of executive coaches who want to level up their business skills and take action in a community of like minded peers. I'm a traveller, a reader, a mum, wife and dog parent and I know firsthand that our stories have a huge impact on our businesses. The executive coaching business is tough and I've learnt all the lessons through plenty of mistakes and also with some great mentors. This podcast is all about growing a thriving executive coaching business. You can build a coaching business that is profitable, sustainable and that supports your personal goals, whatever they are. I'll be sharing tips and ideas translated for your context as well as stories from the field with brilliant coaches and mentors. If you want to level up your executive coaching business skills, then this is the place for you. Foreign. Welcome to the business of executive coaching podcast. So I am here today with powerhouse coach and facilitator Imogen Moresh. She didn't know I was going to say that. So I can see her trying to, you know, look, look very calm about it. So Imogen is an extraordinary coach and she has a passion for presence, resilience and performance. So she's an academic as well as a practitioner. She's part of the faculty at Bailey Balfour Coach Training and we've spoken. You might have heard Jean Balfour on the podcast a couple of weeks back, but she's also a published researcher, a certified PCC coach, she has an mba, she has a Master of Science in Applied Positive Psychology and coaching psychology and I think this might be the best bit. She has made a board game and, and this makes her much cooler than most of us and even better it's relevant to coaching. So I will ask her all about that as as well. So Imogen and I do go quite a long way back and I have had the privilege to co facilitate leadership programs with Imogen. We have worked together on coaching programs and so I know that she isn't just an amazing coach and facilitator, she is a wonderful person as well. So Imogen, thank you for joining us.

Thank you Ellie. I'm. That's incredible to hear that played back so beautifully and my very British nature, my kind of cultural approach is to completely minimize that and say, well, you know, thanks very much but it was so nice to hear that playback.

Oh good. Please, please, please own it. And I do think I might have another career as a hype guy. You know, like someone who maybe that's.

Yeah, definitely, that's definitely something I pay for. I think we all need that. We all need our cheerleaders and supporters and advocates and it's so important to have people around you who notice those things. And thank you Ellie, for having me on this brilliant podcast. You've had some fabulous people so I'm very honored to be invited to chat to you.

Well, no, it's all our honor indeed. So the first question I'm going to ask you Imogen, is what is your culprit to coach story?

Yeah, so I, I've been running my own coaching practice now for about seven years. I was kind of working it out the other day. It's about seven years now and I kind of like many people came a bit of a kind of a non linear route into coaching. But it was definitely always the elements in a coaching approach have always been part of my approach as a leader. Approaches as, I guess as a, an individual as well. The sort of core aspects of coaching, really listening, finding connection, helping people to discover pathways forward, I think have always been something I've been really curious about and I was really, really lucky. So in my very early twenties I was working at an IT startup, an Internet startup company. So in those sort of early days we had a very quite revolutionary HR leader who brought in coaching and taught us all the grow model and taught us all how to coach. And that really then became part of my approach as a young manager and then into a leadership role. I then went on to have some amazing experiences of working in some very unusual environments. So I went to work for one of my clients who was one of the military organisations in the uk. So I was based on a base for a couple of years on and off as a consultant managing change programs. And that was an absolutely phenomenal experience. I worked with some incredibly clever, wonderful people who helped really shape some great change. So that was fabulous. And then I worked in central government for a couple of years, again working around strategic communication and change, but again really bright, stimulating people. So there's something about working in those environments where it's sort of peak performance. You're working with these people who bring an enormous amount of talent and passion to the work they do that kind of raise your game. And I feel really lucky that I had in my kind of formative years, experiences of working in really stretching environments, it wasn't always easy. There was definitely points where particularly that kind of sense for me of, you know, am I good enough to be in this space? Do I bring enough? Do I have enough training? Do I have enough intellectual capacity? Do I have enough new ideas to bring? And it was, I think, therefore, a place where I did a lot of growing and I hope I added quite a lot of contribution to it too. But I certainly made some great connections and. And it was fun at points. And then we had the opportunity to move overseas and so we moved to Singapore with my husband's work. And I made the shift really at that point into learning and development and spent the next 15 years or so working in learning and development, delivering coaching and training programs for participants all the way across the Asia Pacific region in subjects that ranged from emotional intelligence to presentation skills. A real kind of focus on those communication, soft skills.

I remember, Imogen, you telling me about that time, and I remember that the volume of training that you were delivering was quite extraordinary.

Yeah, I think now when I look back, so, you know, we used to describe it as time on our feet. So in the room, I would be often training three, sometimes four days a week, eight hours a day. And when I worked it out at one point I was like, I think I've trained over 3,000 people in that time and it's enormous amount. But also in that time I was writing and designing. So I did quite a lot of designing of courses and also supporting and coaching others, delivering and facilitating training. So there was a huge learning experience for me. But also really, I, again, I think I'm really blessed to have worked with some really interesting people from very different, diverse backgrounds. And I think that for me has been the secret sauce for me is working in different settings. That's helped me kind of gain a bit of a sense of different ways of working and be able to kind of a bit by osmosis, gain from other people's experience. So I was working with people who had quite an extensive background in teaching English as a foreign language, for instance. And I think when you're teaching quite dry at times, topics like how do you, you know, work on your grammar? You become really skilled at bringing that content to life in really engaging ways for participants. That was not my background, that was not what I was doing. Thank goodness for everybody involved. Actually, I picked up lots of tips about how to make work and training and learning more playful, which I think has become a kind of a Core to what I do. My first degree in drama. So it kind of was like a hark back to my original start out in academic life where I was studying theater arts and performance studies. And we did a lot of game playing and a lot of learning through experiential means. And it really came full circle then in the work I was doing around that learning and development.

But I'm going to. I'm going to hang on. I'm going to let you move on to the. Moving to the coaching bit in a minute. But what strikes me as you're telling this story, and I don't want to forget it, is that you've mentioned that in all of these environments you were working with really smart, amazing people. But I do wonder how much of that comes from your ability to see that in people. Whereas, like, maybe we all work with people who are pretty amazing, but we don't always have the capacity to see it.

Yeah, I think that's really true, actually. I think that everybody has strengths. It's a kind of core perspective that I take as a coach that I do believe that we have strengths. That doesn't mean that we're not overplaying those strengths at points, you know, we talk about the golden mean, about how there is a point which our strength can tip into being, limiting and hindering us in our work environments and outside. But I do think that we all possess strengths that are varied and come from our experience, and that actually when we can recognize those, they are an enormous resource for us to be able to tap into and learn from and help us to work on some of those areas where perhaps we don't possess those strengths ourselves. So that kind of noticing the shadow side of ourselves, knowing that we all also have a shadow side and that we also, everyone else, therefore, around us, has the same. And that often comes from experiences we've had in life that form us and shape how we show up in the world. And I think if we kind of come to that with a sense of compassion and understanding and seeking to understand why, that does provide a slightly more, I guess, positive frame to be able to filter out.

Yeah, and. And Imogen, you know, knowing you, I think that they're probably not that many people who are quite as good as you at embodying that positive psychology mindset that, you know, you use, I know a lot in, in your coaching and that, that, that real view of people's strengths. So, you know, I think that's. I just heard that in your story and I thought that was really, really interesting. Sorry, I interrupted. So you were working your butt off, facilitating every. All day, every day.

Yes.

And I assume. Yeah. Tell us. Tell us what the point was that you might have needed to make a move.

Yeah. So, I mean, for me, definitely, it became. It hit a kind of a pivot point, I guess, when I'd had my second child. So my daughter was only about three, I think, at the time, and I'd gone back to work full time, and I was working in a number of different roles and sort of taking on some leadership aspects into my roles again. But it was starting to feel like the world was getting quite squeezed. Living as an expat, living away from family, is all, you know, often challenging in its own right. But I was really starting to feel that squeeze. And I'm feeling actually a real lack of autonomy. And I've realized, you know, autonomy for me is a really core value. It's both a value and a motivator for me. And I was feeling that sense of autonomy shrinking away from me. And I was also had this really strong desire in me to create, to really sort of guess. You know, we talk about living into our potential, but feeling like actually I could very happily have carried on doing the role I was doing, but that I kind of stopped growing, I think.

Yeah.

And so there was this sort of dichotomy or tension that was coming from not growing enough, but also feeling a bit at capacity. I would describe to somebody, like, I feel like I'm in a bit of a glass cage at the moment, that I'm a bird and I can't quite spread my wings. They can keep hitting the glass. And there's both a kind of a. Almost like a learned helplessness that comes then from not trying to break out, but also a sense that there is this other world out there. So I. I had wrangled with it for a while, and I did what, you know, for me was my. Is my approach, which is to reach out to trusted people. I remember, you know, I spoke to Louise Kovacs, who I know that you've had on as a guest previously, and, you know, just kind of tested the ground a little bit to be able to understand what is the world like when you're working outside of a kind of an organizational context, which I had never done in my life before. I worked from the age of 13, actually, which now, I mean, that's right. Child labor. But, I mean, you know, my first Saturday job was at the age of 13 in a video shop in the UK.

Oh.

And then I'm Good with video shops. They were so great. Right. I mean, like the benefit of being able to take home any videos. I would always see all the films before anyone else. It was just like, you know, it's the way to rock teenage years, isn't it? Yes. So, yeah, So I kind of never. I was never in my head, I was never like an entrepreneurial sort. I come from family of teachers, very traditional. I've got one sister who's a doctor, one sister who's a lawyer. We're like profession people. So in my head there was an identity thing I think as well about am I an entrepreneur? Can I do this kind of work? And for me, reaching out and talking to some trusted advisors and friends actually really helped me to start to think. Actually, I. This is something that feels like it's achievable. So that was, for me, it was the mindset piece of thinking about what it was I really wanted and how I could help myself to get more of that. So it was quite. Did feel like quite a big, big leap. But it was, yeah, but it wasn't a leap I took quickly. So I'd been thinking about it for a while and when I did make the move, I would say it'd been at least a year that I'd been really contemplating thinking through the consequences, which kind of just goes to show how I make decisions. But it was, it was a lot of kind of setting up things before I made that move. And that felt. That made it feel like it wasn't. So there wasn't so much to lose. I had amazing support from my husband as well. And that I think has been really key is that it was a joy decision because, you know, there's risk involved in not getting a, A, you know, a salary each month and recognizing that you're going to have the ups and downs through the months. You know, taking a lot of that stress on when you're already managing and juggling quite a lot in your life is. Doesn't just impact you often, it impacts those around you. So there was quite a lot of. But it felt like there was so much more to gain than there was to lose. And I haven't regretted it at all.

Amazing. And so when you were in that preparation phase, what did you do to prepare? Was it like a financial preparation or a mindset preparation? Like what was. What did you do?

Yeah, I think it was both. So there's a practical aspect for me. There's a mindset kind of almost. This is how my brain works. I work in literation. A lot. You'll notice that through. Well, you know me very well, so you know that. But there's a sort of practical part, there's a perspective part and then there's a sort of people part for me. So the possibly more might add another P. Who knows, who knows where we're going to end up with this. But the kind of practical part, I think for me is about thinking finances. Can I kind of cope financially for a period of time? I set myself up in a way that I knew on a real kind of limited shoe, Sprint shoestring budget I could live for a year. And that was my essential. Now, again, I was lucky I was in a partnership, so it wasn't all on me to pay the astronomical rent prices of Singapore, etc. But it, you know, it was a shared decision that that would be the implication. There was a practicality about what skills I would need. And I reached out. At that point I was connected and met Jean Balfour, who runs Bailey Balfour, who really was so inspiring and so incredible. And I joined Jean's program because I recognized that whilst I've been coaching for a long time, both as a manager and a leader, but also coaching professionally and coaching clients, that actually, at this point it was really important for me to have a personal. When I didn't have the brand of my organization behind me to have a personal accreditation. And so I joined an ICF program. So that was a very practical choice. Also, the perspective piece was about helping myself to kind of almost grieve the fact that I was not staying doing what I was doing, which I really loved, but it wasn't meeting my needs. And there was a period of really quite intense grieving of that being not my life anymore and recognizing that it didn't actually help me meet the things that I needed. But I enjoyed the people I worked with and I enjoyed the work I was doing. And it was. There was definitely a period where it was a bit kind of rocky emotionally of kind of working through that. Even though it was my choice to do it, there was a period of letting go of that and then the people side, which was that I needed my support network. We talked about this at the beginning. Kind of needed my cheerleaders, my people who could tell me, you can do this, it's going to be okay, and I'll. I'll be here, I'll help give you work or, you know, so that's about networking, but not in a. You know, for me, networking is. Is never a kind of a take what you can and run Approach, it's very much what can I give into my network, how can I support others, how can I help people to be connected? So how can I seek support from people around? And we know the science of positive psychology tells us that actually when we ask for help for someone else, actually it gives them a boost of well being as well. I think the more I learned about that, the more open I was to there for asking others for help. And I was always gratified to see that people did help wherever they could. Where even if it was just to say, I don't have anything right now, but I'll bear you in mind or you might want to chat to this other person who I know who also does something a bit. So there was a kind of peer connection that came not just about trying to find work, but trying to find people who could kind of keep you going through the journey.

Yeah. Do you know, it really struck me as you were sharing that this idea that there is a grief right when we step out of the corporate world. And I haven't really thought about it like that, but I think that that's a really important thing to acknowledge because often we're so focused at this point on saying, okay, what are the goals? What do you want to achieve? What are we working to that we don't take time to really acknowledge what has been. And there's such a huge identity shift that happens in this process that when we're taking away this professional identity, we need to be really careful that we don't just cut it off and leave you sort of, you know, hanging in the breeze where without really acknowledging it. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that's really important.

Yeah. I think that's so true of all transitions that there is a period where we grieve what we had and what we imagined we would have in the future. And when we can kind of really acknowledge that and sit with those feelings of sadness and loss and worry and then I think we're much more equipped to be able more kind of cleanly move forward this sort of messy middle bit where I think we can often sit in. And I think if we know, if we can kind of normalize that and say, well, that's just sort of process of transition, we're much more likely to sort of let go and allow ourselves to just feel and then move forward. And that's the key.

Yeah. And we get to have both. Right. We get to be excited and motivated and sad and scared. Scared, yeah. And. And I don't know anyone who's not. Actually, I don't know anyone who's been through this process who's not. So it is.

Yeah.

That's so important that. That we normalize it. So getting back to the transition, I want to get into nitty gritty now. Imogen, how did you get clients?

So all my clients at the beginning came through connections that I had where I built those connections up, often through my own coach training. So Louise and I met doing our applied neuroscience training with the wonderful Paul Brown, who sadly died recently. But his work will endure for sure. He has created connections and communities who have learned together, apply his research and thinking around how the brain works, how it relates to coaching. So a lot of the people in my network, I mean, I was studying with Paul nearly 10 years ago, so well before I set up on my own. So people that I met, those kind of peers in going out, branching out and doing learning experiences came from that and other people that I met on other workshops and courses that I took part in. Also asking friends, so being really open, my own personal network that this was what I was doing. And did they have any connections in their organizations that they could introduce me to. And I did a couple of things where I ran events that were free events that really allowed me to kind of, I guess, have that first experience of me on my own and got some testimonials. There's sort of volunteering through programs that existed and running some of those. And again, through my network kind of got got a foot in the door at some of those. But also I started joined as an associate with a couple of organizations, a couple of larger ones, but predominantly a kind of boutique, smaller organizations where I was able to get some work. And that helped me to again, feel like I was kind of had that forward motion. And I think, again, that perspective piece is once you see that you're doing it, once you have that sense, it's okay, I'm earning. And I would keep in my head the perspective I would have is for every month that I was earning, that was another month I was on the end of my. I can go for a year.

Yeah.

So actually, it was like I was sort of delaying that. Oh, well, if it still goes wrong, I've still got my year. So I was very practical about, I'm not going to spend that, you know, all that money because I want to make sure that I'm then still giving myself that sense of ease and development that could, you know, that's that space, I guess, for it to not go as well as I might have imagined. I kind of again, went into it with a sense of, I guess an experimental learning mindset that this is an experiment. I'm going to see how it goes. I'm going to see if I enjoy it. I'm going to see if it's something gives me what I want and if it doesn't, it'll be a good story to be able to share in my next role that I go for. So I kind of always felt like it was never. I was never setting it up as being a win, lose, but it was a learning experience. Yeah.

And when did you know that. Yep. This was the right move. Like, this is. This is for me.

Oh. Like by the end of delivering my first workshop, I'll be honest, by the end of my. My first. And you and I, you know, met. Met through that as well, which was wonderful. And I was like, this is. This is it. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. It feels great. I have great autonomy. I work with good people and I enjoy what I'm doing. You know, what's not to love about that, really? And my. My world was very much a combination. It wasn't just exclusively coaching, so there was facilitation as well. But I think the two kind of feed each other. So that kind of training facilitation has then led into coaching and vice versa. And. And that, you know, and very quickly I joined the faculty of Bailey Balfour, so. Which was again, just amazing to be part of the program that I'd been through. And it was. Yeah, it was just a real pleasure to be part of that. And I've been teaching coaching skills for. Well, since 2008. I ran my first explicit coaching skills for managers program. So I'd really. It was something that I'd been doing for a long time before joining the program, but I found that doing that certification program gave me a really strong grounding and gave me that kind of filled in some of the gaps that I was conscious. And it really helped me to kind of, I guess, get a better shape and I became a better coach for sure as a result of doing that program.

Yeah. And what do you. What do you know now that you wish you knew then, like, when you were making that move?

I mean, I kind of. It sounds silly. I want to go back and say to myself, it's going to be fine. Like, you don't need to worry about it. And also, you don't know what's going to come. So it's like, it's fine. I think for Me, it's kind of weathering through the ups and the downs that there are points where, you know, work comes in and then there's points where, for whatever reason, you know, running a business through Covid, there are points where work declines and people have other focus. But I think, you know, I've become pretty good at kind of acknowledging that those are the times and just allowing that to be the case to kind of. I've. I've got better at planning forward, so that I always give myself that kind of financial resilience to be able to plan for the next stage. So that's. Yeah, that's my. I guess the things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good lessons. And I think it's almost like normalizing all of it. Right. That seems to be a bit of a theme, which is. I wish. And I wish I'd known that it's all normal. Right. It's all part of it, like, the ups, the downs, the goods, the bads. It just will be like that.

So.

And I think the consequence or, like, the flow on next step is that if we're waiting for it to feel 100% comfortable and consistent, we're never going to do anything because it will never be like that.

No, absolutely. I think it's a really good point, is that, you know, I often talk to people about the difference or that differentiator for me between courage and confidence.

Yes, me too.

Yeah. And I just. I think it's really interesting that we wait until we feel confident, but how can we feel confident if we've never done something before? Because our brain says, well, this is new. And I feel like a, you know, a learner in this space, and I'm. And I'm clumsy, and everything feels quite mechanical, and I don't. So our brain kind of triggers that all. You're not confident, and then we shrink back and we don't do it. But actually, if we can say, what I need to activate in the situation is courage, and that's, you know, from the heart, that kind of origination of that word cur is about. The heart is very much a kind of heartfelt. I'm gonna tap into myself and go, I'm gonna be brave here. I'm gonna put myself forward, and I'm gonna recognize it's gonna feel uncomfortable, and it's gonna feel like I'm not good enough. And it's gonna. And there's, you know, or again, a sense of reality and practicality that always comes in about what do I need to best equip myself to get the best possible outcome in this. So courage plus preparation. Right. Gives us a better chance to go in and therefore be able to earn and develop the confidence of being able to say I've had a go in it and I've kind of got my own research center of one that tells me that it's kind of okay. And also that learning mindset to say doesn't have to be perfect it but wow, I've done it and that's great. I did it and I survived. No emergency services have been called. I'm okay. And so I'm going to keep going again. And, and that again, I think is, is just so important for anybody who's in a learning and development space. If we're not also learning and developing ourselves as we go.

Yeah, yeah, we're not living it. I love that. So I want to ask one of my favorite quite practical questions. What is your approach to determining your pricing?

I think I've got better at this. I think I've got better at this through the years. And I think the reason I've got better at it is because I have been open and talked to trusted peers because I think first start off, it's like this dark art of like, well, how much do I charge? And I, when I, you know, my pricing's gone steadily up, I would say and I realized I probably wasn't charging in enough at points. But part of that was about me, you know, gaining hours, getting sort of time in the room and I'm discerning about who I'm working with. So you know, I, I'm, for me there are definitely points that I do things that are purely voluntary and I have a percentage of my time that I consciously allocate to projects where I feel that that is a really positive use of my particular skill. Skills. I was part of the coaching through Covid cohort of coaches who were coaching NHS workers operating at the front lines. That was a huge program in the UK which was, and it was psychologically informed coaching. So it was a really, it was, it was a real honor to be sort of part of that cohort. And I've worked with women who are survivors of domestic violence and abuse. These are all projects that I carve out into my time that I want to, to devote time and energy to. That means, that means that I have to be earning enough my other work to enable me to do that. Because if I'm not, what happens is I can't sustain it. I have to go and go back into a full time football. So for Me, it becomes, again, quite a practical consideration of I have to be earning enough in order to kind of keep the lights on and, you know, keep, keep my kids in there, like 5 million activities that they seem to be constantly doing. And then the dog in dog toys, obviously, and grooms. So, you know, I have these practical considerations like everybody. So I've kind of worked backwards a bit from that. What do I need to be earning and therefore how many hours do I need to be doing and what kind of work do I need to be doing? I also, and I can't credit the person who gave me this because I'm afraid I can't remember who it was, but it was one of the most beautiful pieces of. So whoever you were, thank you so much. Which was that you're not being paid just for the hour or so that you're sitting in the room, actually you're being paid for the many hours of research and experience that you have accredited in your life before you get in that room. And that really helped me because, you know, when you kind of see an hourly rate and you think, gosh, is that too much? I think actually know the value that I create through my experience, through my knowledge, through my prior work, actually is that that makes that one hour or 90 minutes incredibly valuable for that person. So I kind of try and perceive it in terms of value for the person versus the kind of individual number because I think sometimes be a bit more terrifying.

Absolutely, yeah. No, that, that aligns a lot with. With how we approach pricing. So when, how do you decide then what you pay yourself versus what stays in the business?

Oh, I mean, I'm probably not great at this. So I tend to keep as much as I can in the business because I think for me that, that feels like, you know, the sense of kind of resilience. I'm in the UK now, it's a little easier to do. Obviously in Singapore there was kind of a minimum amount in order to maintain a work pass that had to be managed. But. But in the uk, what I tend to do is I absolutely have a rule where I move immediately a third of what I earn into a separate account, which is for my tax. I do that every single moment. When as soon as it comes into my business account, it's moved straight into a tax account. That feels to me like a very, again, that kind of level of risk, because that's kind of. There's no surprises then.

Yes.

And that also accounts for, you know, costs and overheads and things. So I kind of, I take that out immediately and then from there I work out. I have a learning and development plan for myself through the years. So I'm always like, you know, many of us I'm sure have a wish list of things, yes, love to be doing, but of course, you know, they're expensive sometimes. So I have on my plan at least one thing that I do every year which I fund through my work. So I've done over the last couple of years my LEGO serious play training and I'm about to go and do some more. So some advanced level systemic model creation training which is going to be really interesting. So that's in June, so that's budgeted for that as well. So for me, I think it's about again, each person's individual circumstance is different. But for me I have quite kind of, I guess, a cautious approach to making sure that I'm maintaining the contribution to the, the, you know, the family funds that I commit. But then what I tend to do is, and I think I just did this because it makes me feel good actually is I might say, right, we're going to go on a holiday and, and that's, I will pay for that. And so then I kind of see where the money's going beyond the, you know, the day. But of course it kind of fluctuates up and down as depending on what kind of work you've got coming in. Last year when I was writing the book and creating the board game, which I knew we're going to chat about a little bit, but I took less work on consciously because I needed to have more space for that process. So, you know, again, it's about balancing that time into the things that are really give you sense of passion and fulfillment. And you know, again, I can't kind of overstate it enough. I know that there's elements of which I've created that, but I'm also incredibly lucky that I am able to have those choices. And I didn't have those choices early on in my career. I couldn't have. I, you know, bought a house when I was really young and mortgage as an independent person. I was committed to pay it had a car that I was running. That fixed salary was essential for me at that point. I couldn't, I didn't have the experience nor the credibility to be able to strike out on my own at that point. So it's been a staged process for me of being able to create the position in which I can do that. And I've also done that with the support of, you know, making Choices that have allowed me to do that and also doing it with the support of, you know, our family decisions. So I appreciate there is a point of privilege in that actually of being able to weather through the ups and the downs too.

And I think that is something that is often unstated. Right. That, that a lot of times to do it purely on your own requires a lot more of a Runway. Right. So we need to be much more conservative about a Runway than if we have some other buffers and some other support and other, you know, sources of funds, particularly in, in our environment. So we, we started to touch on it then. Please tell us about your board game.

Yeah, so through my, my master's in applied positive psychology and coaching psychology which I did at the university with East London and I started that study when we got back to the uk. This is so I'm all about networking. I, you know, we've talked about this before. I genuinely think it's probably the best business development activity I can be doing. I don't really market in the same way as I don't really do any other form of formal marketing. So for me going to events, meeting people, for me that has been the best way through which I've actually generated work and also great peer connections that supported my work. So when I came back to the UK I was really conscious I didn't have that network anymore. I'd lived in Asia for 12 years, I had a fabulous network there but I didn't have anyone I really knew in the uk. So my kind of investment actually was that I signed up to do this masters and I wanted to meet like minded people. I wanted to connect into that world of positive psychology and coaching psychology in the uk. Started the masters and six months into it of course we hit a pandemic and that meant that there was less opportunity for face to face connection. But we had already done quite a bit of that.

Yeah.

Which was wonderful. My, I'd been researching and working around, running workshops for instance around resilience for a while and it was really curious about how we navigate through those points of difficulty and you know, we've all had experience of that. I was reading one research report that was saying that 61% of men, 51% of women have experienced a traumatic event at some point in their life. You know, we've over half us have experienced a, at least one quite traumatic event in our life. Equally we are often have high well being and we're moving forward and we're functioning well, feeling good and actually what we know is that we do have an innate sense of resilience. Resilience is often the outcome when we hit times of challenge and difficulty. And so I was really curious about what helped us navigate through what helps us humans. This one researcher, Anne Maston, calls it ordinary magic. This thing that we all have about our ability to kind of dust ourselves off and move forward in whatever way that might be. We take different forms. Sometimes we're changed by the things that happen to us, sometimes we bounce back and we return to where we were before. But we don't always, and it doesn't always happen quickly. So this kind of magic that we all have that we use day to day, like, what's that kind of secret source and how do we do it? So I've been curious about that and hearing it in my coaching and helping people one to one and in groups with it. And I, again, going back to my playful experiences, both in my drama and also through learning experiences, started to think about how can we bring this across in a way that is more engaging and allows people to kind of drop some of the resistance and hesitancy that they might have by just answering questions or just being, you know, in conversation. So play is a great mechanism through help to help people feel safe. Because when, hey, we're safe because we're just playing. It's just a game. It's just something we're experimenting. There is no kind of, you know, negative world consequence. Often when we play, it isn't a place of experimentation and growth and exploration and joy and enjoyment. So those aspects kind of help us to tackle and tap into a space where we can think about other, perhaps more serious topics. And that's kind of the route I wanted to take. So I started it started as a hard copy board game. The pandemic hit. So it became very quickly an online board game which I played themes over zoom. And it's based on the principle of a model that I created around resilience, which is the resources of resilience. Now, resilience, as I said, means different things to different people. I talk a lot about how resilience is, has three phases. It's the before, during and after challenging activities. And it's practice. It is individual to us all. What we do in order to ready for, respond to and recover from the challenges and adversities in our lives is different for all of us. But we also need to practice it every day. It's not something you just do once and then it's over. So what my model is really helping people to think about is what are some of those core activities and resources that you can draw on to help you from seeing the world differently from the perspective piece, to movement and physical activity and rest, to activating and noticing how you're feeling and being able to tap into things like gratitude and savoring to help you. And also strengths, you know, connection with others, finding meaning. So it's a. It's a based on positive psychology research, but it uses coaching as a mechanism to get that across. So the game itself, which is now hard copy board game, is set on a boat. So you're set on a desert island and you find yourself stranded with your teammates. And collaboratively with your teammates, you need to try and navigate through to the safe shores of home by answering coaching questions along the way that help you to reflect on your own experiences of that ordinary magic in action. So it's a very positively framed board game. People play. They learn a huge amount about each other. I played it in an organization, a big tech organization, and someone said I've learned more about my team in an hour than I've learned in the several years I've worked with them. So that's a real point of. I was very gratifying to hear that. But it's unsurprising because the research that I did where I was piloting this showed that people felt that real sense of connection with each other, but also it allowed them to kind of feel psychologically safe because they were playing and there was that turn taking. So people felt heard, but they also went a bit deeper than they may have done normally, one to one, because other people were also doing it. So there was a sense that we're in this together. And from that they helped to not learn necessarily new strategies for resilience, although they did learn from each other, but they most importantly remembered what they already had, what they've used already to help them to overcome difficulty. And that was something they could reuse again in the future.

That is amazing. But what I hear, Imogen, is I'm not sure if I play that game, can I win?

Well, there is interestingly, all the way joking.

No.

I know you.

There's my derailer of competitive coming out.

And there is an element of competition. So as you go through, you collect coins, like physical coins that go in your treasure chest. So for every challenge you complete, you get a coin. Some of them are all play. So they're. We call that all hands on deck.

Yeah.

And some of them are individual. Every time you do them, sometimes you get to Allocate coins to other people. There's one activity where everyone has to write down as many emotions as they can think through in the, in a minute. And the person with the most emotions gets an extra coin.

I think I could win that one.

I think you could absolutely nail that one by the way. So this, and then at the end of the game, whilst it's a collaborative board game, at the end of it, the person with the most coins gets a bonus. So there is a, and I won't tell you what the bonus is, but there is a bonus in the game for the person with the most coins.

Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm even more intrigued and every time you tell me about this game I really, really want to play it. So how would a coach will, will eventually a coach be able to, you know, get a license to use the game or how does that work?

That's the hope. Yeah. So at the moment I'm facilitating it with teams and I'm kind of learning and growing and developing and hearing what works. And I've been running it in really big groups and smaller groups. So many teams can play concurrently which is great. But the kind of long term vision is going to be to license the use of the game. But there will be a kind of certificate application process. So important when we're working with people on any kind of psychological level. And whilst this is a very safe, it's been planned to be a very safe game. There's no exposing elements. What's really important is people get the opportunity. They get a sale on buy card which they can play as often as they like because that's important to encourage people to feel safe so they can share what they want to share, when they want to share it. And there's no, there's no demand to share exposing or traumatic information in any way. It's all very much about, you know, reflecting on experiences that and what you've learned and positive movement forward. In the same way we coaching however, it's really important that people understand the kind of science that underpins it that they understand resilience. Because I bang on about this all the time. That resilience is, isn't keeping going until you break. Sometimes it's taking a break so you can keep going. Yeah, this is really important for people to understand is that resilience isn't the same as persistence. They are related but they're different constructs. And sometimes what we need to do is acknowledge that we've taken a hit, that our, you know, resources are low, that our boat needs maintenance and we need to shore up and take a reparatory exercise in order for us to be able to get back on the high seas again. That is a resilient act to recognize that and to seek support from others, not to kind of put our head down and batter through the storms on our own and come out ragged and exhausted and with, you know, that's where we see people burning out. We see people really damaging not just themselves, but those around them as well. So for me, resilience is this practice of thinking about what's coming, responding to it in the moment, and then that recovery piece which is so important, and knowing that that is a really essential part of looking after ourselves and therefore others around us. And we do that on behalf of ourselves and in organizations. I think we have a responsibility to do that on behalf of others, too.

Absolutely. And so what I'm going to do in the show notes is I'm just going to put your LinkedIn profile image in and then hopefully people can follow you. And then when this does become available for coaches, they will be able to hear all about it because I know that there'll be a lot of people who will be interested. So I've got two more things I want to talk about. I want to ask you a few of my favorite very quick questions towards the end. But before I do, you are now a published author. Can you tell us a little bit about the book in which you have been published? I can see it. For those of you who are on podcasts, that's a very terrible vision cue. Yes. Tell us, tell us about, about the book, about your chapter.

This guy here is the brains inspiring businesses. And I wrote a chapter in this book. This is edited by fabulous Paul Brown and Nandini Desco. And we or this book came out actually only January of this year. So top Press, you can buy it in all good bookshops and Amazon and wherever else you buy your books. My chapter is called Play your way to Resilience and it is about the core understanding of how play intersects with resilience and how it can be a vehicle to boost resilience, particularly in terms of boosting creativity, connection and coping. Those are the kind of three things that I argue that play. So in here I give a definition of what I mean by play as a little kind of model created on how you can find your own ways to play. And a couple of stories about how leaders have used play more broadly in their organizations to boost resilience and help them achieve both wellbeing and performance in their teams.

That is fabulous. And I think it's important, you know, for us as coaches. Yes, we want all these tools to use for our clients, but also for ourselves, because sometimes we can forget about that inner world when we're operating in this business of. One often is that we need to find time and space to do that ourselves, which is where it can help. And I think I take your point about being part of a network. Right. And being part of a community.

Yeah.

As well as. Yeah. Doing.

And we haven't kind of touched on that. And I think it's worth just saying that. I think from a coaching perspective, there's a real great opportunity for playful approaches to coaching. Yes. I think we can often, particularly, you know, when we're on Zoom or, you know, working on teams and we're kind of, you know, here we are in our offices and we're very sort of staid, actually. What I've been really blown away by is the opportunities that there are to bring. Playfulness in, you know, getting people to kind of grab an object that's nearby them that reflects a strength that they bring or helps kind of encapsulate their issue in a new way or gives them a new perspective on their problem. I, you know, learned earlier last year to facilitate Lego Serious Play online. That's mind blowing to me, but it is out there. And if you're looking at doing training, Serious Global, a company who I really would recommend, they were fantastic. So that was a. A great experience to learn how that. I think that there's also the point, though, for us as coaches, where, as you say, it's not just with our clients, clients that we can bring some playful approaches in drawing, using metaphor, etc. But actually, in those moments when we finish a coaching session, we've done our reflective piece, perhaps, and captured what we want to know. But there is a moment where play can be utterly rejuvenating. So whether that's throwing a ball around in the garden with my cockapoo or whether it's dancing in the kitchen for three minutes to fame, whatever it might be. I may or may not have leg warmers, I'm not going to disclose, but there is an opportunity, I think, there for a little bit of a playful break, which we know can help us to just rejuvenate really well, That's a great tip.

Thank you. And for. For the listeners, I'm fairly sure that Imogen is in an 80s cover band. Am I right or wrong?

Imogen, I know you're completely Right. I am in, in. In another of my lives. Absolutely. I sing in an 80s cover band. And. And in fact, we are actually doing fame. We are. We've just added that in. So we are going to be rocking those leg warmers on a regular basis on the London gigging scene.

So if you're in London, you've heard it here. Don't miss out. What's the name of your band, Imogen?

We're called the Night Shift because we're all on the night shift. We all have jobs during the day and this is our kind of passion piece. So, yeah.

Yes, Highly, highly recommend it. Okay, next question. Is favorite business book or business podcast?

Hands down for me at the moment is Making Sense of Work by Jean Baffle. Yes, I listen to that pretty religiously. I think it's great. I mean, just Jean's so wise and has really so articulate and has such great reflections on the world. So I. That's a podcast that I listen to. I also listen to Coaches Rising, which is another great one, and that has some really interesting reflections in there in a range of different kind of approaches to coaching. So those are my kind of two core ones that go to. Yeah, those are my business podcasts. I have a bunch of other ones that I listen to, too.

We'll focus on business. One more question. Have you ever turned down work and why?

I have turned down work, yes, for a range of different reasons. Sometimes because I can't. Haven't got the capacity, and I know I can't absorb it well and maintain my autonomy and my flexibility that I so desire. I've turned down work that has been clearly not financially viable for me. It's just either that there's just the client is not willing to pay for the service, and in which case that's, that's fine. But then I'm not the person that they want to work with. And there have been very, very rare occasions where I've met with somebody and I felt like I'm not the right coach for them. And that's a very rare thing. But I feel like it's really important to be clear about that because, you know, you and I had a conversation about kind of chemistry sessions recently, and I think it is important that there is chemistry for both of you. And by that, what I mean is it's not that you necessarily love the person, but you feel that you can support them in where they want to go. I definitely increasingly have a sense of my role in terms of supporting people to positively contribute to the world and I think that that is a. I'm kind of lucky I can choose who I work with. So I hold that in mind as I meet people. And I'm lucky enough to have lots of really amazing clients I get to work with who do create really positive, wonderful leadership in the world. So I'd rather stick with that.

Absolutely. Look. Thank you, Imogen. It has been an absolute delight to have you on today. You have given me so much to think about, and I'm sure that you've given our listeners there's a lot to think about as well. So I just want to say a massive thank you and, you know, I'm sure we'll drag you back again in no time.

Oh, well, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to be here and yeah, it's just always lovely to be in conversation with you, Ellie, so anytime. And thank you for your support that you gave me through my early years of setting up my organization. I think you always need those people you can reach out to that help. As we said, Norman eyes encourage and give hope and. And that definitely helped me on my journey. So thank you so much.

You're most welcome.

All right. Loving. Elliot's a loving.

I know, I know. I love it. All right, I'm going to say goodbye and to everyone who's listening, we will be back next week. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Business of Executive Coaching. If you found it helpful, please share it with a colleague or friend on LinkedIn. And don't forget to tag me so I can say thanks. I would be tremendously grateful also if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts. More reviews means more people can find us. This episode was brought to you by the Impact Coach Collective, where executive coaches grow their businesses in a community of peers with business education, mentoring, deal clinics, and more. If you'd like to contact me or work, work with me further. All my free resources, courses and more info on the Impact Coach Collective can be found at elliscarf. Com. Have a brilliant week and I look forward to talking to you again soon.