28 - Performance in business with coach Han Ee Lim

Welcome to the business of executive coaching. I'm Ellie Scarfe, an ex lawyer turned executive coach. Over the last 17 years I've coached in house, I've been an associate coach and I've run executive coaching businesses with teams of coaches around the world. My clients have ranged from global brand names to boutiques, startups and organizations doing good in the world. I now run the Impact Coach Collective, a a community of executive coaches who want to level up their business skills and take action in a community of like minded peers. I'm a traveller, a reader, a mum, wife and dog parent and I know firsthand that our stories have a huge impact on our businesses. The executive coaching business is tough and I've learnt all the lessons through plenty of mistakes and also with some great mentors. This podcast is all about growing a thriving executive coaching business. You can build a coaching business that is profitable, sustainable and that supports your personal goals, whatever they are. I'll be sharing tips and ideas translated for your context as well as stories from the field with brilliant coaches and mentors. If you want to level up your executive coaching business skills, then this is the place for you. Okay. Welcome to the business of Executive Coaching podcast. I am here today with executive coach and facilitator Han E. Lim. So Hani is a very senior executive and leadership coach and he has a lot of experience and expertise in performance and sports psychology which he brings to his coaching and I will be asking him about that. He has worked with people at the most senior levels of some of the world's biggest organizations and with coaches ranging from C suite leaders to Olympians and everywhere in between. Hani also has over 15 years experience as a naval combat officer in the Singapore Navy and he was the first Singapore based coach qualified to deliver mindfulness based stress reduction program which many of you may have heard of. So clearly a very interesting guy and I have many questions. Welcome honey.

Hi Ellie. Good afternoon.

It's so great to have you here. And before I ask you any specifics about your coaching practice, I was wondering if you could share with us your corporate to coach story, or in your case, maybe it's your Navy to coach story. What brought you into coaching?

Good question. So perhaps a less conventional route in this area. Right. And I think my interest personally and professionally has always been about human performance and it began as far as when I was a sailor competing and even trying to qualify for the Olympics many, many years ago. So what does it take to excel, to do well and to thrive in stressful, difficult conditions. So that has always Been something that went along with me and thereafter going into the military, sort of same environment, high performance environment, as leaders on ships. Right. So coaching came along as a way to unlock and tap into and realizing human potential. And as some of us, I mean in the coaching industry, there's this person called Sir John Whitmore, coaching for performance. And the origins of coaching actually comes from the field of sports. So Sir John Whitmore was actually an F1 race driver. Right. And he worked very closely with Tim Galway around the inner game and as he applied to tennis. So, so those were sort of confluence of some of those different personal interests as well as coaching as a way to, to tap into that, that inner performance. And so then it was just a natural continuation to specialize and to dive into this realm. And that's how I, I went and navigated my career after that.

Amazing. So, so firstly my question, and I'm amazed that I don't know this, but what sport did you nearly go to the Olympics with?

Sailing.

Sailing. Amazing. Okay, okay. I always look at the sailors in the Olympics and I just think it's incredible. Like I, I get seasick even going on a ferry just outside of Perth.

It's all about, it's all about acculturation, right. People can. It's almost like habits. Once you get used to it, you get. It doesn't matter whether you're sick or not, you get used to it, you.

Get used to it.

Same idea in coaching, right. I mean like so, so a lot of it's about behavioral change and it's about learning new habits. Right. And of course the business of doing, being proactively and intentionally managing the current habits while picking up new habits.

Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. But so, so I'm imagining it's a pretty big leap to go into setting up your own business from the environment you were in. How did you prepare? Right, to set up a business, how did I prepare?

I think it was very clear from the onset that my work or my, my area of focus was about sports and performance psychology and adapting it to the workplace leaders and teams and organizations and coaching was sort of the medium or the way to communicate that or to translate that into impact. So that has always been consistent. So I think in that regard, the point about being very clear about maybe some of your specializations or area of focus or your areas of strength needs to be clear. That's number one. And I think it's also about. So that's skills, right? So we definitely need to have the skills, the experience the relevant experience in coaching. And I think it's also about the attitude because in many ways the transition is not just about coaching.

Right.

It is an entrepreneurial journey. It's a marketing journey, it's a commercial journey. There's so many different things to. It's a, it's a survival journey. Right. And I think, I mean, I think in that regard, sometimes some people control sort of a controversy that the worst ending is actually to have a plan B. Right. So there is no failure that you can entertain. You have to make it work. And some people's plan for exit strategies or what if this doesn't work out? Then you have different options. Right. Versus you have no options. You have to make this work. And that changes your disposition as to how you approach thinking about this endeavor very, very differently.

And, and so was that the case for you when you started your business? Did you feel like there wasn't a plan B? That this was it?

Well, now as I look back there probably different options, but it certainly wasn't that. I mean, it was, it was all or nothing. I mean, it was a full commitment. I had actually moved to the US and left everything behind with my, I brought my family along, the U.S. no job, no security. And I, I became retrained as a psychologist. I did my, my masters in, in psychology with no, no backup in the plans. Right. And it was about figuring out how it was all about what would make it work versus what if things don't work. Right. So I think the questions we grapple with are very different.

I love that. I, I love that idea. And, and I must admit I'm, I'm similar in that I'm, I'm really an all or nothing person. And that's something I've, I've, I've never been sure whether it really serves me in business, you know, because I think sometimes it can mean that I make very more risky decisions. And particularly as someone who works with other people coming into business, I think I have to be really mindful that not everyone is that way inclined and that for other people having, you know, having backup strategies is a source of great strength for them. So it's, it's, it's a really interesting one. But so, so obviously it did go well. And you know, you, you, you started your business and, and I know that you're, you know, you're very successful today. How did you know that you were ready to start your business?

That's a very good question. I don't think you're ever ready. You'll Never be ready. Because I think the whole idea is also to be continuously hungry. Right. And yeah, just continuously looking for marginal gains. You know, drawing from Brailsford about high performance in sports, who was also a psychologist. So you always, you cannot be comfortable. You're always looking for ways to just get better business, to be stronger, more robust in a more healthy way. So those are things that are very important. So. So you'll never be ready, but you can always be more ready. And at the same time, I mean, I wanted to respond to another earlier point about this thing about playing or approaching it so that it will work. It's not about recklessness as well, Right. I mean, it's being calculated and informed and, and having the right attitude in a way. It's not about just, just risking everything. Again, it's not gambling. It's not gambling. Yeah.

Yeah, okay. And I feel like sometimes I might have been on the wrong side of that equation, but I like to think that, yeah, but I've learned from my mistakes. So. Actually, one thing you just said then that I thought was really interesting was that it's about being hungry, but in a healthy way. How do you marry those two? Because in some ways, you know, there's that sense of being hungry, being that, you know, we're really driven, we're passionate, we want the business to grow, we're invested in it. But it can easily fall into that sort of hustle culture, you know, working all hours of the day. What is it that makes that healthy? Right. How can you do that in a healthy way?

I think it's about, you know, I was recently sort of reading out a lot of people's materials, and I think the word that's coming up is really about polarity, thinking. Right. So how do you play with both ends of the spectrum? And again, this is a concept that really also comes from high performance. Right. All or nothing, but at the same time, knowing when to cut your losses, if you will. Right. So. So they are seemingly opposite ideas, but can they coexist together at the same time? Can you be hungry? Can you hustle? But can you also be in a very relaxed state in a non hustling way? Right. And I think that's something that it's, it's, it. It plays out differently for different people. And I think a lot of leaders are starting to grapple with that. Right. In what we call a VUCA environment where the answers are not so clear, can you be fast and slow at the same time? Can you, can you push and pull at the same Time. Can you be quiet and speak at the same time? So all these nuances and dynamics are constantly at play. Right. And so how do you bring awareness, recognition and make sense for that and draw purpose from that energy, from that tension that can be powerful and creative in so many ways.

I love it. And I think that is the journey of so many business owners, isn't it? Right. Which is how can we, how can we harness the energy that we need? Like we need to have that passion, otherwise it's going to be a very long and hard and slow journey. We need to have that sort of that hunger. But at the same time, most of us have done this because we want to have also a life that is more balanced, that is, you know, like less on the hamster wheel than our corporate jobs.

So.

So I love that idea of polarities, which is we're not talking either or we're talking both. And. Yeah, and that's a, that's. So I say it and it sounds very logical, but it's actually quite hard to do. Any tips for how people can do that?

Well, I think. Get a coach. Get a coach.

Yes. I highly encourage that, I think to.

Verbalize it and to acknowledge that is an important part of the, of the process.

Yeah.

And what that means is about having the right support right around you, whether it's your family, your friends or whoever. Right. That you can be yourself and to speak to this. I think what is not so helpful is potentially just to bury it and ignore it and let it fester and it becomes literally an issue that will just eat at you. Yeah. So it's energy, right? It's good energy or bad energy, you decide. I mean, how you approach it.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I think one of the ways I, I like with my community, what I get people to do is set 360 degree business goals, I call them, which is not just what do you want to achieve in your business, but what do you want your business to give to you and your life? Right. So. So how is your business going to support your, your life, your contribution, your community goals, as well as, you know, the basics around things like financial performance and, and, you know, numbers of clients and things like that. And I think that can help us hold on to both and sort of say, yes, I have this goal and I have this goal and they're going to sit together because of the way I approach it.

Yeah, absolutely. The purpose behind this endeavor is so important, to be clear. Right. Because that's the inner fuel that, the drive that will, that will help you power through or to stay silent or the discipline to stay focused, etc. So that has to come from. We did. And, and that's not a, that's not a financial, that's not a financial drive at all. Yeah. It's a much power, much more powerful fuel.

Or if you, like me, you're just very competitive, which I imagine, I imagine you are.

But the competitiveness means something. Right. So it's not just about winning. Right. It's about, about getting better. And, and a lot of athletes at a very high level, they are also, and very much would argue, competing against themselves because, as you know, the go, the saying goes, you are your worst enemy.

Yeah.

Because the competitors will come and go. Right. But you, you will stick around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I mean, it's, it's very topical at the moment because the Paris Olympics are on and, you know, I'm just obsessed by the Olympics. I, I get so into it and like, one of the stories that I've loved this week in particular was the women's skateboarding. And I must admit, I was a person who said skateboarding should not be an Olympic sport. That's ridiculous. I mean, don't get me started on breakdancing. That's outrageous. But, but I have been completely converted on the skateboarding. Not just because of the athleticism of these people, it's amazing, but because of, they managed to hold these polarities of being, you know, very focused, very goal oriented, clearly going for the best they could be. And when they were not, not racing. Racing, no, when, when they were not performing. Skating, I want to say skating themselves, the connection and support that they offered each other was extraordinary. Even that, you know, everyone's coaches were supporting everyone. It was like a community. The collegiality was, that's probably not the right word, was extraordinary. And it did make me think. Yeah. That we can have, we can hold on to these big goals we have and we can do it in a way that feels good and nourishing and, and, you know, in alignment with our values. You know, I love it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, actually, so, so I, I, I mean, coming from the sports arena, I've also done a lot of research and look into what, what is this environment that will sustain success. Right. An ecosystem where no matter what sort of ingredients or athletes or people or leaders that you put through the system, they will emerge stronger. Right. And that applies not only to sport, but certainly in the workplace. Right. And there's this idea that, so in skating or in many different sports and Many different countries, and to a certain extent, I would say even in Australia and certainly in New Zealand, where they approach development of talent in a holistic and a collective way. And when that happens, that typically leads to more robust and sustainable success. Yeah, right. So what that means is that if the, if the athlete moves on the, the. There's a very clear succession plan because it's not just about one individual. Yeah, right. And that, that is evidence across in sports and I think in, in, in the business world, in organizations, and also for a commercial or small business, the, the ideas and the principles and translatable. Right. So how do we think about it in a sustainable way, in a more holistic way? And now with this whole idea about sustainability, not just about environment, but human sustainability, that has become even more important, and that is performance. And the whole idea is not just about. It's one thing to win one Olympics, it's another thing to win at multiple Olympics. Now that's a different ball game. And same with businesses. Wanting to pick stays in one month is another to maintain that level of output and performance over a stretch of time.

I, I think that's so important. And I would say that's one of the things that I didn't necessarily do. I haven't done that well during my career is that I feel like I have had moments where I've, you know, I've been very, you know, highly performing, you know, doing a great job, business doing really well. But, you know, that, that burnout that hits when you overdo it. Like, I've been on that roller coaster a few times and, you know, I think that that along with, you know, the, like how we fall off the marketing bandwagon when we do well for a month or two, and then we realize suddenly there's, there's a, there's a hole and we have to pick ourselves up. I think that sustainability is, we can translate that. Yeah. To, to us as individuals running coaching businesses. So I'm really interested. Obviously, sports and performance is a big passion that you bring to your coaching. How does it play out in a corporate environment? How do you use those concepts?

So along the conversations, a lot of it's about enabling the client to become more aware of what works for them, what triggers them, and also be more sort of in touch with, for example, their emotional intelligence so that they are able to, to work more intentionally and effectively with habits. Right. And habits translates to behaviors. Right. So how they communicate with their team members, how they set direction, whether or not they give effective, constructive feedback, and also in many areas about how they make decisions. So essentially habits, right?

Yeah.

Sports, high performance is about habits. Workplace, same thing. Right. Leaders, what are the habits that they, that they bring to the table? Some are helpful, some can be less helpful. And then what is the, what is the alternative and how do we transit and deal with that change?

That's so interesting. How, how do you find it different when you're coaching like an executive in an organization versus someone who is like an elite sports, sports person? How, how would you, you know, what do you see that's different?

I think the, there's some differences, some, some main differences in sports if you, if you lose the feedback loop is immediate.

Yeah.

So you know in six seconds, whether you have one or not, right?

Yeah.

So and then you can respond. Whereas in, in, in, in the business, organizational world, in the workplace, that feedback is not always immediate. In fact, you can hide from it. Right. And you may not show up immediately. So some, some habits can be dysfunctional, for example, but you can hang on to it and it doesn't get to you. There's shelter, there's protection or whatever the issues. Right. And so you can actually literally get away with it. So, so I think those are some of the differences. So in that environment, then how do you then bring a sense of urgency and that realization when the feedback is not so timely?

Right.

Whereas in sports, you try, it didn't work. Okay. What are you going to do? You have to respond immediately. Right. And you lose a second time. You know something's wrong. Right. So you're activated, you know, you got to change or do something. Whereas the impetus to move may not actually. While we say that things are very urgent, things are very competitive. Yes. But the time, the time actually might actually not be the same compared to high performance sports.

I've always been interested in the idea of how train, the idea of training, which is so logical for a sports person, how we might adapt that to a corporate environment. Is that something you talk about with your coaches in corporate.

Yeah, absolutely. So training doesn't. So we're not about to go and run laps or go swimming or physical workout. We could, I mean, but that's not the. So, so when we talk about training repetitions, it's about skill development. Right. And skills, for example, how you set direction, how you communicate, how do you speak. Example. So how do you train for that? You can. By rehearsing, by thinking through, by preparing and bringing awareness to the daily parts of your working life. Right. That is part of the training to reflect, to pause and to think through, to process and to learn from it. That is also part of the training.

Yeah, that's so, that's so interesting. I could probably go down this rabbit hole with you a long way, but I want to, I want to talk about, about your businesses. And what I'm wondering is, when you first started out as a coach, how did you get your first clients?

Oh, wow, that's a good question. You can answer it in many ways. But I think the first and most important answer is to be as good as you can be. Because if you deliver good work, impactful work, that's the first and most important puzzle to solve. Because I believe that people will naturally hear of you. Right. If you're honest about your work, you're professional, you care about the work, you care about the difference and impact you're making with the people you work with, people will naturally gravitate to you.

Yeah, yeah.

Because the work speaks for itself. Right. So. So I think that's the most powerful type of marketing. Right. So instead of buying ads or whatever, banners, let the work speak for itself and the work has to be framed. What is the difference we are making in, in our clients lives? Right. And the work in sports or whatever. And I think that's the biggest area of, of development. And I'm still working on it. And I will never be saying that I am, I'm perfect. No, there's always a way to think about how can I continually add value to the people I work with? And it eats at me because I'm always questioning myself like, is there another way? Can I do better? And, and that's how I get my clients to answer that part of the question. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So. So your clients come from a lot of, a lot of referrals, a lot of word of mouth, a lot of repeat business. And so if you look back on those early days of starting your coaching business, what do you know now that you wish you knew then?

Wow, that's a very, that's a very good question. There's so many things that I wish I had done differently as well. So many mistakes I've made. I think the. I, I think that there's also this idea about, you know, how some people say that whether we are running as a coaching practice versus running as a coaching business. So maybe I'll speak about coaching as a practice. Yeah, I think it's very important to. Which I didn't do so much in the early days. So I talk a lot about making a difference. Right. But what is that difference? How do you quantify? How do you measure? How do you know? Right. And in sports, for example, it's very clear. Win or you lose. Right. I mean, like I said, the, the feedback, the results are as immediate as it gets. Whereas in coaching, the difference, while you say you want to make the difference, but what is the real difference you're making? It's actually not so straightforward. Yeah. Right. So for example, the client may say, oh, I feel good. Right? Yeah, I feel good, but what does that mean? Right. And is it good enough to hire you back or to, to share as a referral to someone else? And so, so I think now that I know, I think in the early days, it's all the more important to have some of these conversations up front and to be even as clear as possible. How are we going to think about success, progress or impact?

And how does that work when, like, because sometimes in coaching, like it's not that there is a, a tangible goal necessarily. Right. Goals might be one of the interventions that you use, but you know, how do you measure it if their, if their goal is their, their purpose of the coaching is something less tangible or less measurable? How do you have that conversation in those cases?

Yeah, I think the, I think that. Well, okay, so, and then, I mean, in business or executive coaching, sometimes there are different layers, right. So sometimes you're not only working with the, the coachee, the client, but you also. There's the, there's the supervisor, the line manager, that's the, the sponsor, for example.

So within an organization, everyone's got a different goal potentially.

Yeah, absolutely. So. Yeah, absolutely. Right. But I think all the more, it's important to acknowledge the difference if there is and to be clear on what is and what isn't, rather than just sweeping it under the black, the carpet and say that, oh yeah, let's just assume. Right. And I think that can be, that can lead to even more complications down the line from a contracting agreement point of view. So that has to be addressed up front. But when it comes to one to one. Right. So whether someone just hired you directly, I think to a certain extent there is somewhat more leeway to establish those yardsticks, if you will. Right. And to check in along the way. But I think that's always one of the things that we have to keep at the forefront that will be helpful to think about. Okay. How is this going? Is this making a difference?

Yeah.

Do we need to adjust? And, and that's not a, it's not, not a question we can answer by ourselves. Right. It's a question that we have to answer together with the people involved. I think that's the key here. So how do we facilitate that discussion? And you don't have to guess, but it's really just work on the client to, to get some clarity around this.

Absolutely. And so, you know, what do you find most challenging now about running a coaching business?

Results. People are expecting instant results. I think that's always the, yeah, there's always that tension. Right. But it comes, it's part and parcel of any, any practice, whether coaching or being a dentist or being an architect. Right. You're expected to deliver. Right. And, and I think it's, it's part of the game. Right. I mean, to accept it and to, to, to relish it and, and take it up is a challenge. And how do we translate and make a difference in, in people's lives?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Do, how do you, this is sort of, sort of related. How do you then think about. Obviously you're quite purpose driven, but how do you, how do you think about pricing? Like, how do you make a decision about what to price your services?

Well, benchmarks are helpful. I mean, you know, like ICF reports provides you a gauge. Right. So that's one way speaking to colleagues in the community, etc, and, and to be very honest, I don't mean to say this in a boastful way. I am not the most, I, I'm pro, I'm definitely not the most expensive coach and I, to be very honest, I don't think about pricing that much. I, I just focus on doing good work. Right. And, and somehow it's, it's continued to work a workout for me to this day, not only for me, for my coaching practice as well as my coaching business, because pricing is such a nuanced thing. It can mean a lot to someone, it can mean very little to someone else.

Yeah.

Right. And my work brings me to different countries, different regions, different companies. So for example, what a price point can be very subjective to a multinational versus a startup who is bootstrapping or someone who's really trying to find work. Right. So, so how do you contextualize that? Right. So I mean, you talk about sliding, so it is really a sliding scale. Right. So, so I mean I, I know some people are very clear, this is my time, whoever you are. Right. This is worth this amount. Right. And nothing wrong against that concept. Right. But I think to think through about what, what to have clarity around your pricing mechanism. And for me I'm clear as in I'm not fussy what is more important is impact. But of course it has to be fair. And I will have a conversation with the people I work with, etc. So that's how I work it through.

Yeah, I like that. And I think, you know, what I teach in my communities is bands of pricing that you then adapt to the context that you find yourself in. Because we, especially in the early days, you want a price to win the work as well as, you know, feeling like a fair exchange of, you know, expertise and financial reward. So, yeah, I agree. I think we need to be adaptable. We need to, you know, it's a different story when someone is self funding, when they don't have a job versus when a company is bringing you in for an executive. To me, it doesn't necessarily make sense to have the same pricing in all of those contexts. But you've got to understand what the benchmarks are like you say, so you know, you've got to know your geographic benchmarks, your industry benchmarks, and to some degree you can only find that out by talking to people.

Absolutely, absolutely. And in some ways the other, I mean, this is such an important discussion. Right, because there's another way to look at it. It's also how you price yourself and how the client, how much the client is willing to pay. The other overarching conversation, what are the types of clients you want to work with?

Yeah, right.

And so you could price yourself. You think that this is a fair amount, but, but the person is only willing to pay a fraction of that price. Right. And then you have a, you have attention. Do you take it? Right, but then I'll say, okay, I mean, they really want it. But then sometimes the amount they, they are willing to pay is a reflection of the work and the commitment to the relationship and the partnership. Right. And so it's almost like an indicator. Is this the right type of client for you as well? Right, so, so this, this. And I'm sure you will have more to speak about that.

No, that is, that is a very good point. So I often talk about how our clients, they, I think pricing can be conflated with quality. So there's a belief that the higher your price as a coach, the higher your quality or the, you know, the better coach you are. But I think what you've just presented is almost the inverse, which is that if people aren't willing to pay like, you know, a reasonable price, then that's an indication that they don't see the value in it and it's an indication that they may not Be as engaged or as committed to the process.

Absolutely. So they're willing to pay for a bandit, but actually what they're talking about is open heart surgery. Right. So how do you marry that, that difference?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, absolutely. No, that's, that's a really helpful way to think about it because I know a lot of coaches are in that position where, you know, people are trying to, you know, they're selling coaching. The, the potential client is really on the fence and it's like they might be convinced if you can reduce the price low enough. But there is a point at which you go, well, maybe this is not going to be, we're not going to get a great outcome in this context. And so maybe there are times where we don't push to get the work. We say, okay, this maybe is not a great fit because your reputation and.

Credibility is also at stake here. So there's also this thing about being, being savvy about, I mean, to a certain extent, who are the client. I mean, the just fit of clients. Right. That you work with.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's very interesting. So another question I have is, have you ever turned down work?

Yes, I have. I have for a variety of reasons. I mean, I think the more important ones are where. The more difficult ones are where I don't think I can make a difference or I'm limited, or I have a, a difference in how I'm assigning out the situation and not seeing eye to eye of the client. So, so those are, hasn't happened a lot, to be very honest. Yeah, yeah, but, but I have had those experiences.

Yeah, it's interesting and I want to normalize that for people because, you know, I'm similar. Like, it's not a lot of times, but there are those experiences where either there's been a values misalignment between me and the, you know, either the industry or the individuals in question, and I've just said, no, this is just not a good, a good fit or where the person who has been the client, not necessarily the coachee, has not seemed like they'd be willing to form a partnership. Right. That it is really transactional. And for me, that, that doesn't feel great. Like I've not. And very rarely, like most of the time clients are brilliant and they really want to partner with you as the coach. They're really invested in getting a great outcome for the coachee. But just occasionally that that's the case.

Yeah, but I, I'll add that, I mean, so we're talking about polarity, thinking. Right. So this idea about how we also don't want to swing to the other extreme where the chemistry session, very important. The moment I feel like there's no chemistry, I'm out. Right? No, and actually it could be the lack of chemistry could actually be a function of our own skill set rather than actually a lack of chemistry. Right. So the more important question is how can we be more, for example, more culturally intelligent, for example. Right. So how we can understand different people. Right. So. So just because they're quiet or the way they present themselves. Oh, okay, That's. I know how to manage those situations, even if they're resistant. How as a coach, I can work with resistance and to build trust. Right. Rather than say, okay, no, it's not going to work. There's no trust, there's no openness. But I mean, so what were the interventions? What did you try? What do you do to establish or to sort of take that time to build that. That relationship? Right. So. So that. That's one thing to point out. Yeah.

Well, that's a really good point. And. And I would have to say. Yeah, I, I totally agree. For, for me to say no based on a chemistry check would have to be pretty dramatic. Right? I. There would have to be something that was really clear that I couldn't work with this person because I'm. I'm probably like you with that. I think that sometimes what. What looks like chemistry on the surface is just, you know, a different style or a, you know, like a bit of awkwardness or in some case, neurodiversity. Right. On either the coach or the coaches part. And, and that can appear. Appear like a lack of chemistry. Whereas you. Yeah, you kind of need to build credibility and chemistry and hope that, you know, and I think a good coach can build chemistry, I would say, even if that doesn't exist in, in the first meeting. But.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, to your earlier point, also, what makes us uncomfortable? Right? I mean, I think that's also the. That's our craft. Right? So how do we look at it so that we're more. We learn to work with the uncomfortable and there could be situations where, I mean, it'd be awkward, it'll be difficult. I don't know whether this is going well, you know, I mean, so today, what do we do about it? Right? I mean, those are part and parcel of. Of the work. And I mean, it can be difficult. There's no denying that. But that is, it comes with it.

And I don't know about you, honey, but sometimes those ones where I've felt, like, the most awkward or like it was the most difficult have ended up being the most transformative for both me and the coachee.

Yes, yes, I've heard that many times. Yeah. The most difficult are your best clients. Right. Or some way to think around that. Yeah, absolutely.

And that's where. That's how we grow. Right. And that's the stuff we take to supervision and we sort of talk about, you know, what is this? What am I projecting onto this circumstance? Or what is. What is happening for me. I think that's a really interesting, interesting one.

Yeah. The other point is also, like, oh, I. I think it went terrible or it went well. And then actually, yeah, to a large extent, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, it's how the client thinks. Right. So you think this is amazing, and you look at the person's like, I'm never going to work this person again. Right. There could be all this room for misunderstanding.

Yeah, yeah, it will. Exactly. I mean, God, we could. We could have a whole conversation about chemistry conversations. But, you know, I've had. I've had people say no because I was too good in the chemistry conversation. They felt like they'd learned so much and they decided they didn't need coaching, you know, and. And equally, I've thought it was. It was awful. And. And they've. They've told their HR manager that. That they were so excited for us to work together. So. Yeah, you can't tell. You often can't tell because we can't be in someone else's mind. So is there a person in the public eye that you wish you could coach?

I want to work with Manchester United.

Oh. Oh, yeah. Well, you've got. You've got the Sporting piece. Tell us a little bit about why. Why Manchester United?

I want to work with turnaround stories. I think that is absolutely fascinating to understand what's happening and then to turn things around. Yeah, Right. Teams, organizations especially, I think there's so much more dynamics around it. It's a lot more complicated, to be very honest. There are different layers and nuances. Right. So it's not so straightforward. Okay. Let's just work on a coach or let's get a new CEO. Right. Let's change the player. There's so many different layers to it, and that draws me to it, to understand, to make sense of a more complex system.

Yeah.

So. So, yeah, that, that. That is what really draws me to the. That's almost like A new client. And I mean, to be very honest, personally, I think they need some help. They could use some help. I think they move the needle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can't help but think about Ted Lasso when you talk about coaching a soccer team. But I think in Ted Lasso they hired a psychologist.

That's right.

Rather than a. Rather than a coach. But I feel like. I feel like a coach could, could have had an excellent role in there. And yeah, I, I think the, the dynamics across the whole of the organization are super interesting.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. I have a. I have a good friend coaching a national sporting organization here in Australia and yeah, very interesting dynamics. And she'll know who I'm talking about, so. Amazing. So do you use assessments in your coaching? Psychometrics? Which ones are your favorites?

A host, I mean, and sometimes I use my own. Sometimes it's a matter of the client's preference. So I wouldn't say I have any preferred because it's simply a means to an end. Right. I mean, and what is that? And the end is about impactful conversations and results in that regard. So who's to say whether you're extroverted or not? It doesn't matter. It's what you make sense or what you do with that info. Right. So. And there's so many different tools out there and it's just a matter of interpretation and in some ways that level of reception to it, I think that's what's more important. So it's like a trigger. Right. But that is what you. What they do with the trigger and how they translate it to facilitating change, awareness, etc. Right. So it's a good Kickstarter. It can help bring awareness. So, for example, 360s, right? I like 360s, but I said it's a means to it. It's one of the tools that we have.

Yeah, agree. I love using psychometrics usually to just start a conversation. Right. A particular type of conversation, which is very reflective. And it's actually not really about what the assessment says. It's about what is the ability this person has to reflect on themselves and, you know, go with you on a journey of talking about the stories that may make this.

So.

And I. That's what I like.

It's almost as. Just as important to see how they are responding to it. Right. And less of words on that piece of report that. That's actually more insightful.

Definitely. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And have you ever. Do you hire people in your business? Have you. Do you have a team or have you ever hired Support.

So I have a team of support staff. I also have a panel of coaches that I, I work together to deliver larger scale coaching programs for organizations, including some levels of consulting, diagnostics and organizational development. So, so that's the area that I'm in and I can't do it by myself because I don't have all the expertise. So I'm happy to say that I work with people who are way more equipped, knowledgeable and experienced in, in this arena. And, and so I, that's just part of the work that I do from.

From an admin perspective, like a back end perspective, like, what was the first hire you made? Or who was the first, what was the first help you got?

Interns. I'm starting with interns.

Interns, yes. Tell me about that.

It's just a personal, it's, it's a personal challenge I, I like to take on because it's one thing. So for example, you hire a superstar, you will get superstar performance. You also may get superstar problems.

Yes.

Right. So if you hire someone who is not so experienced, they don't have superstar performance and they probably don't have superstar problems as well. And at a price point that they're certainly not at that level. But the upside, there's a chance that you can shape them and nurture them into much better performers.

Yes.

Right. And so it honors my own interest in harnessing human potential. Right. So it's about untapped potential. Somewhere in there, it's latent, it's undiscovered. And in this environment, in this partnership, in this relationship, they can emerge. Which is the name of my company. Right. So, so. And that's something that I, it draws me to it. So, so whether it's a turnaround story or the, the superstar in them, that has been latent. Right. And how do you, how do you allow them to emerge from that shell or whatever? Yeah, that is in there.

That is great.

That's why. Long story too.

Yeah. What sorts of things do your interns do? Like what tasks do they do for you?

They do all sorts of things. Marketing, content. They have done diagnostics for me. They put together different instruments, reports. They, they have, they do BD and client interface. So they actually interact. The clients, they manage it. They manage my coaches. So everything that I would expect of a superstar would expect of interns, it's a matter of attitude. Right. So sometimes I tell them, actually one of the first things I tell them, I don't treat you like intern. I treat you like, just like Everybody else. So. So one of those, like, maybe they call it, what new neuro language. If you call yourself you're not good or you. You are. You are a fresh bread, then you really act like it. Right. I mean, so you fit to that label. So we don't. We don't work with labels. Right. It's just about getting the job done. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. And that's definitely. Yeah. An avenue that a lot of coaches could think about, perhaps, like, when they get to a certain, you know, size of business that they probably haven't. Haven't considered. And I count myself in that bucket, so. So thanks for that. That idea. And then this is one of my favorite questions to ask coaches. How do you decide what to pay yourself? Because obviously in coaching businesses, we have a certain amount of revenue. We have a cost base, we have a profit margin. Some of that needs to stay in the business. How do you decide what you actually pay yourself?

That's a good question. I've never actually quantified that. I think enough so that I can live my life in a purposeful way.

Yeah.

As you know, I rediscovered cycling, and.

So that costs a lot of money.

I'm not buying the expensive bikes, but I'm more into the experiences. So whatever that enables me to. To. To learn along the way. Right. And to grow as part of my own interest. I think that's one way of looking. Looking. Of course I need to pay myself, not to pay the bills, to make ends meet. Right. And. And, yeah. Yeah. So. So that's how I would rationalize. And you don't want to underpay yourself because then it becomes like a inner struggle that you're always dissatisfied. You feel like you have to make compromises. Right. To yourself at the expense of your family, to honor your company so that you don't want to be deemed as a failure or whatever. Right. All those inner struggles are potentially things that one may experience. I think it's important to work through them to find that balance. But I think health is important. It's something that money can have an impact on. So we want to recognize that and honor that.

Okay. And do you have a favorite business book or podcast that you think is relevant for coaches other than yours? Oh, thank you.

I. I enjoy Adam Grant. It's called Work Life. Right. I think his. His work is quite interesting, very thought provoking and insightful, and he loves to draw parallels from sports and across a variety of different experiences.

Right.

So, Okay. I definitely. I definitely recommend that. Yeah.

Okay.

As a. As a resource and it's free. I mean, it's accessible.

Yeah. And. And then what is the best coach training that you've ever done for yourself?

That I've attended myself? Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. So, as you know, I'm a mindfulness instructor. I think the, the program to become qualified is by far the most difficult thing I have done compared to the different education or whether going to school, masters or whatever. Right. I mean, by far this. I mean, the number of retreats that we had to go, I mean, not just about going to it, but the inner work. Right. To relearn and I think to unlearn a lot of things. I think that has been personally and professionally very challenging, yet rewarding. So I think that journey has been terribly transformational for me and I would strongly recommend that it has as of value to other people as well.

And, and honey, do you still have a mindfulness and meditation practice having.

Having done that? Yeah, I do, I do. It's a, It's a cornerstone of my own. Of, of my own being. I mean, as a coach and something I, I use wherever I am just to be still and, and you know, sometimes it takes a breath just to pause, to look out the window, you know, to listen to yourself. Right. I mean, those are moments, right. Of, of silence, of contemplation and certainly cycling. Cycling is my form of meditative poison, if you will.

Yes, yes. Yeah. I feel, I feel the same about hiking. You know, I find that to be quite a. A mindful, meditative process in, in many ways, getting outside. Yeah. Okay, so tell us a little bit about. I know that you're building a training offer for coaches. Can you tell us bit. A little, little bit about that?

Sure. So, I mean, it's just a. It's just my passion's work, to be very honest. I mean, being in the coaching business for this time, simply sitting down and aggregating and reflecting on the things that have made a difference to me, that has helped me in my coaching journey and sort of capturing it. It in the form of a, a program or curriculum. So we plan to launch the pilots later this year and it's aligned with not just icf, but also with iac, International association of Coaching. So different pathways to be flexible. So that's been something that I've been fully focused on. And on top of that, it's not just about the coach training. So I'm very interested in creating a sustainable ecosystem. So one of the things that I observe is that a lot of coaches, when they go through coach training programs. Not many translate that or convert successfully into a successful coaching business. And that's just based on my own limit, narrow view, to be very honest. Right. But it is with that view that I want to, that's how I want to design a solution, a system. The coach training is important, but it's how do you address the commercial, the business side of things, how do you engender learning opportunities, continued support as well as coaching work? Right. As part of the ecosystem. And so that's something that is the larger piece of work at play. And so the coach training is but one of them, which will, like I said, it will launch later this year and the other things that are already at play. And by this year you'll start to see the crystallization of this, this ecosystem.

Fantastic. And how can people find you if they're looking for you?

I think the easiest way is to follow me on LinkedIn.

Perfect.

Yeah. So that's where I'll probably make the latest announcements or my own shares and views. And so, yeah, from there you can drop me a message or simply get in touch.

Fantastic. We'll make sure to include that in the show notes so everyone can follow along as you, as you go down that, that journey as well. And they can get the most up to date information. But thank you so much, honey, for joining me today. You know, you've had so much to offer. I know everyone's going to really enjoy this episode. So, you know, thank you very much and you know, yeah, we're really grateful.

Thank you, Ellie, for having me.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Business of Executive Coaching. If you found it helpful, please share it with a colleague or friend on LinkedIn. And don't forget to tag me so I can say thanks. I would be tremendously grateful also if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts. More reviews means more people can find us. This episode was brought to you by the Impact Coach Collective, where executive coaches grow their businesses in a community of peers with business education, mentoring, deal clinics and more. If you'd like to contact me or welcome work with me further, all my free resources, courses and more info on the Impact Coach Collective can be found at elliscarf. Com. Have a brilliant week and I look forward to talking to you again soon.