35 - Add facilitation to your offer suite with Leanne Hughes!

Welcome to the business of executive coaching. I'm Ellie Scarfe, an ex lawyer turned executive coach. Over the last 17 years I've coached in house, I've been an associate coach and I've run executive coaching businesses with teams of coaches around the world. My clients have ranged from global brand names to boutiques, startups and organizations doing good in the world. I now run the Impact Coach Collective, a a community of executive coaches who want to level up their business skills and take action in a community of like minded peers. I'm a traveller, a reader, a mum, wife and dog parent and I know firsthand that our stories have a huge impact on our businesses. The executive coaching business is tough and I've learnt all the lessons through plenty of mistakes and also with some great mentors. This podcast is all about growing a thriving executive coaching business. You can build a coaching business that is profitable, sustainable and that supports your personal goals, whatever they are. I'll be sharing tips and ideas translated for your context as well as stories from the field with brilliant coaches and mentors. If you want to level up your executive coaching business skills, then this is the place for you. Hello and welcome to the Business of Executive Coaching podcast. I am so pleased to be here today with Leanne Hughes. Welcome Leanne.

Thank you. Lovely to chat to you Ellie.

Now I'm going to do a the formal part of proceedings so I will introduce you officially and then I'm going to ask you all of the interesting questions. So Leanne focuses on producing extraordinary outcomes for individuals, teams and organizations in a huge range of environments and economies. She likes the term thought breeder which I love to describe her calling. Her calling being to engender innovative pragmatic ideas and results with her clients. And I, as anyone who listens to this knows, I love innovation but I also love a violent focus on pragmatism. So that really speaks to me. Leanne's based in Brisbane, she is a prolific communicator and author of the two hour workshop Blueprint which I don't know if we'll use this video but just in case I do I'm holding up here and you can see behind her and I recognize have recommended this to to folks. She's also the host of the first time Facilitator podcast. So I plan to take notes from her expertise today and her articles feature in all sorts of publications including Smart Company and CEO World and this is cool. Her work is very unique and she has been inducted as one of less than 50 people into the Million Dollar Consulting hall of Fame. Leanne helps people achieve big goals and surpass their own aspirations personally and professionally. And working with her is all about understanding how much growth you can continue to achieve. So I want us to focus on that today. Leanne, welcome again. It's so great to have you here.

Thank you. And I love the iterations that you added to that and your input to it as well. And because Thought Breeder, I thought, I just mean the whole thought leader thing and it being self proclaimed, I just couldn't do it to myself. So I think Thought Breeder is more about the work that we do in terms of the coaching, facilitating, inspiring ideas into action.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's got that sense of generativity that I like. It's like where, where the spark, where the start, where the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as I mentioned, as always, and this is probably a coach coach thing, I have so many questions for you, but I'm going to try and not just, you know, rattle them off one by one. Let's see where we go. Would you start by not just introducing yourself, but maybe telling us a bit of your story? Yeah, it is.

What's the launch pad for it? Look, I think it might be fun and I'm not going to go completely linear here, but when I was really like one of my first memories as a six year old was going to a birthday party and it was awful, Ellie. Like there was, there were no activities, there was no structure. I remember being like super bored just sitting around. I think it was like a barbecue that my parents picked me up a few hours later. And I remember in the car thinking, where were the activities? Where was. Because my dad and I used to structure our parcel parties. Yeah, we would have an agenda, we would have a variety of activities. And you know, the work that I do now is a lot about that, like designing great experiences for groups. And I think it was really an innate thing that happened as a six year old. So I've kind of in my career flitted between. I mean I love group psychology, I love playing team sport, very fascinated in team dynamics, love communicating. So podcasting and writing is really fun, just bringing that all together in the consulting world and just seeing what mediums and tools I can use to help clients out. So that's like the short story but kind of around where it started from that.

And this is probably, you know, quite going to tell us a lot about your personality. But are you someone who thinks that every person should get a present in past the parcel or only the person who wins at the End.

Well, that's a really good question. I think that only the person that wins at the end, because it creates that suspense. Yeah, that's the whole point of the game. Like if everyone at every layer, but we would create these pass the parcels that were like, we. We had an old keyboard box, so it was huge. So dad would bring out the past. Everyone's like, whoa, what is in this? And then it would end up being like a little sort of tokeny thing or a book right there. Yeah. Like that unpredictability of that big box. So I learned about being unpredictable back then. And in fairness, Dad's like an engineer, but he's super creative, so it was nice kind of learning that from him.

Oh, I love it so much. And when you were, you know, taking on this childhood journey, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up?

That's a really good question. I wanted to be a professional netball player. Like number one. Okay. Number two. I don't know if this was more of a profession, but when I was in grade 8, 9, 8, 9 and 10, every night I would bring up the local radio station and just compete in competitions. And I won a few cool things like trips to Sydney.

Oh, wow.

Close vouchers. So maybe there was always an element of communicating in the media as well.

I thought you were going with like professional gambler competition.

No. I mean, judging from recent performance. No. So, yes. Sport, media. And the reason why I like sport, I actually played netball for a lot longer than I should have. I should have probably stopped playing, but it was more that I just love my friends and that dynamic of being around a team. So, yeah, I think where I am landed now is. Has been that mix of communicating teams. Yeah.

Yeah. Amazing. And what was the professional journey for you? So how did it, how did it play out?

Yeah, it was. Well, I mean, I just pretty much did an arts and a business degree because I didn't really know what I wanted to be when I grew up. My first job was with Accenture and I realized after a year that I hated it. I hated all the rules. I hated that they. How they hired talented. Not. I mean, it's not a bad company, but it's not. It wasn't built for me.

Yeah.

You know, you hire great people, then you just tell them how to do things, you know, I felt like I was chatgpt or something. Like they're just programming me and like. Yeah, I had a quarter life crisis and joined probably the most controversial company in Australia called Wicked Camper Vans.

And yes, I think, yeah, if you're not from Australia and you're listening, do Google it. It was pretty interesting.

Yeah, you'll see all the headlines. I actually shared that at the event with Michael Bungastenior did a couple weeks ago. And like the gasping in the room, people were shocked by it. So. But I learned, I mean that was the best thing ever to do. At the age of 25, I worked directly for the owner. It was seek forgiveness, not permission. We would do crazy stunts. And what do you. What that showed me was the power of agency and how you actually do a lot. You can do a lot more than you think you can. There's no one on over the back of you kind of slapping your wrists like you know. We did something called the Naked special. Pick up your van naked, get your first day for free. And we didn't get in trouble for that. And you think, geez, if you can do that. And so that I kind of built this thing around, you can push the rules a bit. So that was really interesting. Ended up moving to Broome in Western Australia. Lived there for seven years, worked for the government for a tape up there in a marketing role. But then that pulled me back into workforce development. And then most recently before leaving my job, I was working for a global mining company in Brisbane and that's where I got my start. The commodities at the time, resources price was quite low so we couldn't afford to get external facilitators. And my boss started to send me all around the world running workshops. And when I was in Canada one time I was jet lagged. One participant just refused to jump into an activity and it really threw me. So I flew back to Australia and asked all my friends how to do it. That led onto the podcast.

Yeah, yeah, amazing. So I love, I love that forgiveness, not permission approach and, and yeah, I imagine that bring. Getting people to show up naked was very much in that. In that category. I actually don't know. I guess it could be public nudity. I suppose that's illegal.

Yeah.

You do, right?

You think all these things and you think that you're going to be policed. There are so many things that we did and we even got like lawsuits every week and my boss would just rip them up crazy and yeah. And so I everything, I mean coming from the background that we're conformed to the rules. Accenture was really about the rules to see that you we weren't getting in trouble and oh, that it was a real. I'm not that I'm all That way now, I mean, I'm. But I will. I will slightly, like, push the boundary and Total line, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think the line's a lot further on than we think it is.

Yeah. And I can see what I'm thinking of as the parallels to running your own business. Right. We'll definitely dive into that. But one of the things I found hardest about starting my own business, and I know a lot of other people do, is that there is no one telling you what to do, not in a bad way and not in a good way. Right. So no one's telling you off and no one's giving you, you know, a pat on the back. And I think there's, There's. There's something in that, which is how do we get comfortable with that sort of. That lack of having the policeman there to keep you in line.

Struggle with it, too. And even if I think about my LinkedIn posts in the first 6 to 12 months are very corporate.

Yeah.

Because I was like, you know, someone who's going to approve this, no one's approving it. But I still felt, like, limited in what I could share, and I've kind of just shrugged that off now. But you're right. Yeah.

And so how did you make the decision to. To say, okay, I'm gonna. Gonna do my own thing now? This is. This is what I want to do?

Yeah. A few reasons. Well, once. So our global mining company had operations in different countries, and I wanted to go to Mongolia. So once I went to Mongolia, got back, I was like, cool, what next? There's nowhere else I want to go. The hierarchy.

Yeah.

And they didn't seem all that excited about life. Like, honestly, they just seemed overworked and in meetings all the time. And I'm like, well, I don't want to progress here. And then I had a former podcast guest, and we collaborated on a workshop to speak at the Gallup Clifton Strengths Conference in Omaha. And when I. That that sort of culmination, we got chosen that week, and I'm like, what am I doing? I felt so, like, wow. I'm speaking at this conference, but I'm still working in this. It felt misaligned, but. Well, that's in February. Why don't I just give them a few months notice and we'll kick it, kickstart it there? And look, if things don't work, I'm not unemployable. So that there really was no risk, I don't think.

Yeah. But it's interesting. There's something obviously in you that could make that decision that there's really no risk. Whereas other people in same situation might have seen that as quite a big risk.

Yeah, that's right, it is. Yeah. And I think this actually plays out a lot in my life and with the people that I work with as well, is. And I always go in with an approach of why not versus why. Like. And I think something I've sort of. I'm starting to think about is just having a shallow approach versus depth. Because if I actually went and did the risk analysis, you know, I went deep on that and went through forecasting funds, and maybe I wouldn't have made this decision, but I was playing it like a kind of constructive delusion stage, like, why not give it a go?

I love that. Yeah, I love that. And I think. I think there are probably a lot of people who ultimately try and come up with, like, the permission to start a business, to step out. They're looking for that validation. But inherently, for all of us, we've got to make that decision, oh, well, why not give it a go? I think that's.

Well, we've got. I mean, not to get too deep, but we only have one life. And I think there is. There is absolute. And it's different seasons of, like, life. I mean, my husband has a steady job. We don't have kids.

Yeah.

We've got a hat. We locked in a house at a good price, like 2016. Like, it's different now. There are different. And I'm not being completely flippant, but I. So it is. I completely understand that. For other. It's very contextual in that approach, but I think some of the time, like, there's a great quote from George, so Gordon Lightfoot, he's a former psychiatrist, and he said the biggest prisons are the ones we have in our own mind. And we tend to find external reasons to not do the thing when a lot of the time we just have to give it. Like you said, give yourself that permission.

Yeah. And sometimes the reasons we're creating to get in the way, you know, it's really coming from internally. But we can. We can. You know, our brains are very clever. We can come up with all sorts of reasons. Yeah. Whether or not they're accurate. So. So since you started your business, what sort of work do you do now? Because it seems like you've got quite a diverse practice.

Yeah, I do. And my. My definitely Achilles heel is like, what is the value proposition and what is your niche? It started off a lot of training, leadership development. Now it's kind of pivoted. I'm bringing in some of that marketing element, working with industries like from pharmaceutical through to retail, different methodologies, emceeing events. Like I'm running an event for a university conference, coaching one on one advising around the theme. So some of it is like one on one. It is around that validation and like getting people off the hesitation station, like at one to one level. It's around like leading change and using like the word of mouth marketing strategies I learned at Wicked Campers. And how do you bring that in internally to like create a movement? Sometimes it's around helping people become better trainers, facilitators, presenters.

Yeah.

And I love, actually that's why I sort of left my job, because I love the variety of those different challenges. Yeah. So it's definitely evolved and yeah, I'm enjoying it.

I think, I think more than not, the coaches that are in my orbit do lack a bit of variety. I think not many coaches just do coaching. And I think that that's partly preference, but also partly, I think, from a financial viability. If we want to build a robust business, I actually think we need to have coaching offers. And also I call them coaching adjacent offers. But you know, things like training, facilitating, consulting, where we're talking to the same clients, potentially same people in clients, but we have the ability to start to cross sell a little bit and just expand.

Yeah, I think that I'm with you on that. I love that phrase, coaching adjacent. That's super cool. I mean, I really like useful phrases like that. So thanks for sharing. I think the big thing when I, I started to work with Alan Weiss in 2020, he's like the rock star of consulting. And when we were talking on the podcast, he was like, your business model's wrong, you shouldn't be delivering that much. And I'm like, what? Because I thought that was a good thing. Like, yeah. And he's like, no, no, no. And what he picked out from me is that I was leading with my methodology. Like I would say, oh, I'm a trainer, I'm a facilitator. But he's like, what result do you create? And then decide for that situation, which methodology will you, Will it be coaching? Will it be advising? So, yeah, I found that really that was a big watershed in my career for sure.

That's a really helpful way to think about it. And, and it probably is very customer centric.

Right.

Because customers don't come to us going, oh, I really want a training program. They'll come saying, I've got a problem with my new leaders.

Yeah.

And how we fix that is like a choose your own adventure.

I love that. Yeah, yeah. They might come in with like, you know, Anita one day workshop, and then you're like, well, why do you need that? Like, what's the. And it might not even be training. It could be coaching. It could be. Yeah. Well, advising them to performance manage someone out. Like, so you're right.

It's kind of having peripheral vision more surprisingly frequent. Just managing someone out would solve a lot of problems.

A lot.

Which is. Which is an interesting reflection. What's your favorite thing about being in business?

Agency. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, like, I had a friend message the other day. Yes. Sorry, this morning. And she's like, oh, I've got a friend that's got corporate box tickets to the cricket on Monday, December 16th. You want to come along? And I'm like, yep. And the other friend on the end of the message, she has to check in with work. She's got a new job, so she doesn't know. And I'm like, oh, I feel for her. Like, the fact that we. So just the agency. Designing a business which works, like, where I can really optimize my strengths and talents, I think is. Is it for sure. What about you? I'm curious, what do you love about it?

Well, I love. I love at the moment, the thing I'm loving most is the creativity. Like the. Because I. I think in other times in my business, so I've been in business for a long time now, but I sort of lost a little bit of that sense of creativity. And I think in this new iteration where I get to work with coaches, you know, there's a lot of content that I'm developing, there's new programs, there's different ways of working with people. I'm learning so much. Like, I love that. And I, you know, I want to use my creative muscle more and more these days.

Yeah. And you're really prolific as well. Like, you've been out there, which is awesome.

Yeah.

Can I.

Can I just say, and this is like giving myself a bit of a pat on the back. I have done six months of weekly podcasts and. And like, I have a story about myself, which is that I'm not a consistent person. Like, I'm. I'm an all in or all out? I think, like sustaining for six months. I feel good about that. I think, hell, yeah.

That's worth. Worth celebrating. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's a big feat. Yeah. That we've Recorded this.

And we'd say, on the flip side, you know, what do you find hardest about being in business?

The hardest thing about being the. I miss being in teams, like, you know, I said before, so. But some of my work this year has actually been working, like, partnering with teams and getting involved and jumping on their meetings. So I'm getting some of that, which has been probably the most in the five years that I've had business. But just like you said, there's no sounding board for us. What I've picked up over the last, like, probably three years, I've recognized, like, how we're a lone wolf and how we need to get out of our own heads. So now I've got, like, friend tools around the world on WhatsApp.

I love that word friend.

Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Peers that you just are your friends that you learn from. And just voice noting them has been. Even though it's not live conversations, it's. That's been really helpful to get out of your own way. Yeah. And it is like, the buck does stop with you.

So. Yeah, that's the challenge because, you know, I really. I really observe in a lot of new coaches there is that. That sense of loneliness to some degree, which is, you know, one of the. One of the challenges that I want to solve by building a great community. That's one of the things. And then I think the other biggest challenge they have is around visibility and sort of feeling that. That fear of. Of how they're perceived and putting themselves out there, particularly in a sales and marketing way. And, you know, I've. I've definitely had that.

I feel.

I feel better about it now. Like, I feel like I've been better about it. Is that something you've grappled with or is that. Tell. Tell me. Okay.

I love, like, if I could just be a media house of one, happy to do it. I love. I love communicating and sharing value where I can. So, no, I don't. Has it been a problem for me? I think definitely. When I started the podcast, I was really nervous around it and very scripted when it came to the interviews and things like that. The thing about. And you've just talked about consistency. I'm with you. I don't. Like. I'm like a kind of, like, ad hoc rocks type of person. But the value of, like, doing the podcast was that it improved my communication skills, my way of thinking. Writing a book clarifies like. So communicating is actually, like, what I find about content. I don't view it as me sprung My services because I think if I went in with that mindset. Yeah. I'd feel a bit icky and gross about it. I go in with, what can I learn about this? What can I experiment with? I treat LinkedIn as a, as just an experiment. Like what content here is going to resonate if it, if something's landing, let's pivot onto that. If it doesn't, cool, great feedback. But I don't associate my worth with likes or notifications and that's important, I think. And so I think what we're talking about is actually like kind of self esteem maybe, possibly self worth is. It's a deeper conversation around that, I think. But also I remind people that I work with like, no one cares at all. Like no one really cares. Like everyone's so self absorbed and focusing on themselves. Like no one, like so always remember that. Like no one actually cares what I.

And a lot of the time people won't even see it. Right. They won't see it. If they do see it, they probably won't read all of it. Yeah. And you know, and, and the ones that do are the ones who are your people. Right. And it's a great way of finding who are we talking to? Who can we add value to in, you know, finding that.

Yeah, exactly. I think about your viewing pattern. Like on my viewing pattern on LinkedIn, it's like I'm scrolling and scrolling until I see something kind of interesting or that it hooks me. But most, most of the time I'm just.

Yeah, which, which is, which is interesting. So one of the particular things I know a lot of coaches really dislike is putting photos of themselves up. And yeah, I, I used to, I used to be done that. The thing I've had to do was like exposure therapy, like just, just more, more get photos and just do it. And now I feel good about it. But you know that, that, that is what stops the scroll though. Like people will see a face and they'll be like, oh, there's a person.

Yeah, yeah, it's a fun one. It is a funny one. I also know like a ton of really great coaches, facilitators who don't do any social media, but they're just so good at the word of mouth referrals and optimizing. So I think, I mean an element of, is playing it to your strength a lot. Another part like you don't, we all don't need to be social media faces. But I like your idea of exposure therapy as well. You don't because you post it Up. It's like there's a really great TED talk around. Is it gia jang. 40 days of rejection I just went through. Yes, the oppo. The upside of what you're talking about is insane. Like the amount of leads work I've had just through LinkedIn, through a post that I thought maybe not much value in it, but someone else has found incredible value. Like, that's it's all kind of upside.

Yeah, well, so, so on that note, like, how do you go about getting new clients? Like, what's your strategy?

Yeah, well, in my first year, it was really about just optimizing my existing network, and I think we tend to overlook them. I've got sort of five in my own mind. Five categories of clients. Like, there's okay, there's your best, there's your nest, your test, your quest, and the rest.

Oh, my gosh, tell us about those.

Okay, well, your nest are the people closest to you, like your friends and family. And it's kind of funny. I, my, my dad flew over to India with me when I was running leadership training over there in my 2019. And when we got back like a month later, he rings me and he's like, you do something with people, right? And I'm like, oh my gosh, like, how so we overlook our people closest and so we over. So that's a real like sitting like a low hanging watermelon. Then your best, like, you know, current clients, previous clients, people that love your work, that will evangelize on your behalf. The quest I love. These are people. Michael Bungay Stanier was a quest person for me, someone I admire, I'd love to work with in future. And so you start sort of digging the well before you get thirsty and test is you're not too sure. You think, maybe there's an opportunity here, let's just have a conversation. And then the rest is just everyone else. And so in terms of my work, initially it started off with like, yeah, queuing up the best and the nest. That's where I got my confidence. And then with the content strategy, then I started attracting people that might be test sort of audiences. But especially in the first few years, I also had like cash flow partnerships. I would do associate work with other people that would get big jobs and that was great just for confidence and getting muscle fitness. But for me, it's been about how do I continue building that brand? And just, I don't do any outreach. It's mainly attraction through the podcast referrals. That's. That's awesome.

And all the people who are in my community are going to be like, okay, yeah, now, thank you. Someone's reiterating what Ellie goes on about. I don't use those phrases, but I do talk about the importance of starting with your close network. Right. And that like the best. And the nest. Like, those are the people. Those are your people who you need to go to. Sometimes it can be awkward to. To reach out to them. Right. So we talk a lot about strategies to do that. But I love it. I love it, I love it. And I do. I do. I probably encourage a bit more outreach of that sort of. Perhaps the test.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Group. Yep.

But yeah, it's interesting. And I love the idea of Quest. I love. How would you translate that? Would that be like, this is your dream client. This is the. You know, if you could. Yeah. Your dreamiest dream client.

Yes, I would. I love that. Well, even when I did was mapping out my podcast, I was like, who are the top 100 dream guests? Like, who would be the. These are the Quest people. And Julian Treasure did the speech TED Talk how to speak so that people want to listen. Like, he was guest number six on the show. Like, it's just we are so lucky to be living in this. This day and age, you know, but that, like, so that even just being friends with Michael Bunger, saying has brought amount opportunities, like positioning yourself with people that are really great in your field. Again, something that's overlooked. And I don't do it. Like, it's. While I'm talking about it, this sounds very transactional. I'm like, I'm going. It's not about that at all. Like, and I think with anyone that's like a kind of. With elevated starters, you just got to think, what value can I offer them?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, yeah. And.

And I mean, at the core of it all is relationship. Right. That this is all about actually where. Where people having a human experience and, you know, yes, yes, we do want to grab businesses and we have to do things to. To do that. But, you know, we do it through, you know, authentic connections, I think.

Yeah. Being a good human being of service.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you ever have any stumbles when it came to sales and marketing? Like anything you find? Yeah, totally.

I mean, pricing was terrible. Like my pricing power out. But you got to get.

Look.

And even I think would I have changed anything I needed to get clients so I would charge ridiculously low amounts because I needed the social proof on my website, like the fact that I worked with them. And so maybe I wouldn't change that. My. The biggest stumble that I've now completely overturned was how long I would spend writing a proposal. Like, I would spend maybe a week. It's too long. Like now 24 hours. Turning it around. Like speed and responsiveness.

Yeah.

Like critical. Yeah. And the more time I spent thinking about the proposal, like, the heavier it got, the more resistant I got to writing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So how do you. How do you get over that? So for me, I guess my biggest tip on. On that is probably have boilerplate documents. Right. So have documents that you can adapt and. And just don't overthink it. Because a proposal is like a starting point really. You know, you have a conversation and then you just frame it as, here's our draft to work from.

Perfect.

That's usually. Is that what you do?

Yeah, but I've also. That's exactly. I love that mindset you just spoke about, Ellie. And the other thing I do is I've lean on my strength, which is like video. Right. So I do loom videos and I talk through the ideas again. First draft, talk it through, takes me three minutes, send it to them. So that's. Yes. Great.

So if anyone listening doesn't know what a loom video is, what it allows you to do is bring up a document and then a little picture of you. A little. Little image of you, or you don't have to have a picture of you. And then as you sort of scroll through the document, you record yourself talking to it as you go through. It's very cool. And you can do a lot of it for free. You can get a page. So if you ever want to do that. It's a great idea. Yeah, I would. Yeah. Highly, highly encourage it.

That's.

That's cool.

So a few reasons. Well, I'll go through two. One is if I'm talking to someone and they need to get. Not approval, but they need to share it with someone else in the team.

Yeah.

Like, it's hard for them to market on behalf of me. So either I'd want to call with that, all three of us, or they can just send them the video.

Yeah.

And they can get a sense of who I am. Because they're buying us as people, not just. You know what I mean? Like, they actually, literally are buying us as people in our personalities. And the second thing is it's innovative. Like, no one is. You know, maybe in two years I have to change my approach because everyone will be doing loom videos. But still at the stage now where they're like, oh, my gosh. And so that just shows you this is what it'll be like when you work with me is like it won't be stock standard. So I think it's a branding call. Yeah.

Yeah. I actually think that's a really great suggestion that people could, you know, take away and use right away. Right. It's, it's a, it's a great tip. So you mentioned that pricing was interesting. How do you think about pricing now?

I think about in terms of value, what value they're getting. And this is again, something I learned from Alan Weiss's book, Million Dollar Consulting. So I guess, because I'd come out from a world where I was working in learning development and my question for a facilitator was, what's your day rate? Right. And the second I hear that now, it's like the wrong. I'm talking to the wrong person. Because it's not about the day rate. It's about what value are we creating for this organization's team, not the time spent together. So removing. Just stopping the assumption that time equals value.

Yeah.

Was the big. That was a huge thing. And I think I'm so happy I learned that, what, two or three years into my career, because I'd still be charging on day rate and hours.

Yeah. And so how do you, how do you shift the conversation with a client who is like, you know, like they're getting your coaching rate, say, and they're dividing it by the number of sessions.

Yes.

We're figuring out. Yeah. How are you doing half a day or a day? Like, how do you, how do you shift the conversation?

Yeah. It really depends on. Yeah. What the work is together. And so be like, okay, what result are we after? What do you want to be. Get better at? And so even so I would, I might even mix up methodologies that might be, we'll do just on demand coaching or we'll do like, I have Leanne on demand. So that's like a voice note coaching thing that I do. If you have a problem, you can call me within 24 hours for. I'll get back to you within whatever, a certain period of time. Because what I found when I was working with a coach in my first year, we had every coaching every two weeks. But I want to. There's some points where I'm working on a proposal, like, I need your help now. I'm so bad, I had to wait like six days.

Yeah.

Not responsive enough. So I, rather than saying 10 sessions at X rate, I'll be like, wait, this is A result. We're gonna, we're gonna get you the result. It might be a combination of calls, it might be a combination of face to face, or this, this is the value to you. If you get that, I'll charge you like a tenth of that. And that's how I work it out.

That's very cool. And you know, was there, like you said it was a few years ago that you had that shift and so was that it, Was it hard to implement?

Well, I, it happened through kind. Yes, there was a, there was a lag in terms of hearing it and understanding it and then doing it. I reckon there was about a six to eight month lag. And it was only when I jumped in like a community with Alan Weiss, a mastermind, and I heard someone's charging like 50k for a strategy day, I was like, what the hell? Yeah. So I was, I intentionally paid all this money to put myself in an environment where I could hear people playing it. Their clients were like, Lamborghini, et cetera.

Yeah, yeah.

But before that I had no idea. Cause I was hanging out with other facilitators and trainers charging day rates. So I think what, Ellie, what you're doing with it, creating a community, it's the most powerful thing because you then, it puts you in a situation where like, whoa, that's possible. And like they're just a normal human. Like, they're not like, you know what I mean? They're not great and they're doing a lot of things, but it's like, wow, that's cool. Like, great to know.

Yeah, it is. And you know, I'm. I think I'm thinking about that idea of pricing based on value for, you know, like a kind of traditional executive coaching engagement. And I think it's a little trickier because we don't necessarily know what, what the value is, because when we're briefed, we're brief from the organizational perspective and we haven't yet integrated the perspective of the coachee, which is, which is interesting. How can we have that conversation, do you reckon?

So are you, you're talking to a representative of the organization, not the coachee.

Usually we're briefed. Usually we get the brief and it comes from like a leader or an organizational representative. And then we meet. Then we meet the coachee. Right? Yeah, it's usually after, like they're usually introduced to two or three coaches and the commercial discussion is. Usually happened separately.

Yeah, so that was the. Working with Alan, he's like, do not go through anyone else. Like, talk to the Economic buyer, which in this case would be the executive leader. Like that's who I would. So I would. And, and that takes self like, you know, you've got to be confident to say that. But a few lines like Ellen's written a great book called the Martial Arts of Language where he talks about all these things yet and what you can say in return. But you know, things around time, time based commitments. It's like, ethically I can't charge you time based because that incentivizes me. Right. To take more time. Right. Yes. People want. You know what I mean? It's kind of unethical to charge on time. Whereas I could get you a result tomorrow. Wouldn't that be better? Isn't that worth more?

Oh, how interesting. Oh yeah, that's.

Yeah, I would.

To like the traditional way we do things.

I know. What would he say? What do I say? Oh, thank much. I don't. What is it? I don't. You don't need to market on my behalf. Let's set up a conversation with the three of us. I'd love to find out like what the returns are on this because I think when you work with an executive leader, gosh, like the impact that your coaching could have on their business.

Huge.

Worth millions, right? Millions. Yeah, often it is. And so, yeah, that's, that's the goal. If you. So he. Again, I don't want to offend anyone. This is, I'm passing on a message from Alan Weiss. But he's like, HR stands for hardly relevant. He goes, they don't have the budget. They. All they can do is say, no, you've got to talk to the economic buyer. And so yeah, again, that took me some time to. I mean, I was working with HR&L and D. My whole focus was on targeting them as my ideal buyers. They're not. My ideal buyers are the people with the budget.

Yeah. Oh, that's, that's, that's interesting. And probably, probably I would, I would, I would have some debate about that because I think in, I mean practically, in many cases, HR do earn the budget for, for coaching specifically. But I think, I think the message I like about that is don't be afraid to talk to the buyer about the commercial reality of the intervention that you're bringing.

Yeah, absolutely.

And like, actually don't be afraid to start to quantify impact either. Like, even if you're hypothesizing at the start. So it's like, well, what if this person could lead a 5% increased engagement in their team, which could could translate to a 5% increase in return. Right. And I'm being totally random, but what does that look like? Yeah, what does reduced turnover. What does increased. Reduced sickness absence look like?

You know, exactly. That's it. Or even like, what is a better night's sleep cost? Like how. What's the value of that? There's, you know, like just. Yeah, yeah. And once you get into. Oh, sorry.

Oh, no. I was gonna say, even if coaches aren't having that conversation with their clients, I think thinking about it helps them to feel more confident in articulating a price that is not that, you know, that, that basic bare bones hourly rate, but to say here, this is my, you know, even if it is a package, you know, and it's not. Not on an hourly basis, but, you know, it's just, it just feels more, I don't know, expansive and.

Yeah, like that. Yeah. And I think, like, there has to be a return on investment. Like, I think the problem sometimes with training and where I was caught up in my first couple of years is like, okay, we train people like the, the feedback is the smiley sheet. What is the return on investment in the business? And like, what control do. Have we really got once they've left a training session? Really. Not a lot.

No.

So we couldn't re. You can't really quantify an ROI on a one day workshop. But if you're doing like strategy and then helping with accountability following, there's the value. Yeah. So it is a, it is a dramatic way in thinking because again, I'd come from a world where same as probably many of your coaches have come from.

Yeah.

Time based and.

Yeah, yeah.

Objective value, definitely.

I think that's, I think we're going to have some good conversations about that in my community because we talk a lot about pricing. It's a, it's a big topic.

So.

So a lot of the coaches that I know listen to this podcast and that I have in my community have this either, you know, they've got experience as a trainer and facilitator and so they want that to be part of their business, which I highly encourage, or they may not have that experience, but there is a sense that they want to build that capability. And my, my take is that coaches have got all of the, you know, the foundational capacity to be great facilitators with some tools and tools and techniques. Do you think that's true?

Yes. Oh, yeah. I think coaches are the best at asking questions and that's probably one of the key skills of any good facilitator.

Yeah.

And I think coaches are also brilliant at being present in those conversations. And I, out of. I think that's when I graduated from being a first time facilitator. I graduated from not being. Having to be in control and script the conversation to being a bit looser and being more present.

Yeah.

So I think coaches make brilliant facilitators.

Yeah. And so how, what would you suggest? Like if a coach wanted to, you know, say, okay, I want this in my toolkit, I want this in my office suite. Where do they start? I'm going to think your book, but could you elaborate a little bit on, on what you do?

Yeah, I mean, the book's one way, but I think I, how I learn is I actually put myself in situations where I'm the participant. Like, I go to as many workshops as I can, but I take a meta level. So I'm not there really for the content. I'm there to see what people are doing. Like, even when I watch a YouTube live stream of like a one person broadcasting on a live stream, I pick up virtual facilitation tips.

Yeah.

That person's basically, they can't see anyone and they're just bringing this energy and doing all these cool things. You're like, oh, how do I bring that into my session? So I think, I mean, if you're starting, like be a, be a participant. That's how I got it. I was like, I was a participant of many workshops and I thought, oh, I think I could run this because I. What I was learning was not anything new. So observe what they're doing. Yep. I've got the podcast and everything else on that. I think it's a nice. If you're sort of graduating is to co. Facilitate as something to kick off.

Yeah.

Right. Because you're not completely in charge of holding the space. You've got a buddy to do that, ideally someone that's done it before. So I mean, within your network, maybe it's reaching out to someone within your community. Ellie, that facilitates. Like, hey, next time you're running one, can I volunteer to take notes?

Yeah.

And just being part of that process, seeing how they design it, debriefing through the breaks, offering him just to run a 15 or 20 minute segment of that would be a good start.

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly. If I think back, that's how I learned how I started facilitating. I had friends and mentors who ran sessions and I came in and I started observing and then I started taking on little bits and then eventually you Know. Yeah. I was allowed to, allowed to do it on my own. No one gave me permission, but I just did it. Yeah. I also like the idea of almost like throw yourself in a little bit because sometimes we can put it off forever, but if we actually sell it, then we have to do it.

I love that.

Yes. Just, just. Yeah. Because I think what I've observed is that people are a lot more capable and have a lot more knowledge and a lot more experience than they're giving themselves credit for. And sometimes what they need is just the, like a little push to. To get it.

I love that. I, yeah, agree. And look, even, I mean, you facilitated hundreds of workshops. Likewise. I still get the nerves, like still around. So it's just.

You're right.

Get in the ring. Put yourself in service of the group. Like, I mean, just once I shift the focus of myself, it's a lot easier.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So in your book, there's so much gold and like, I particularly like, like your.

What's it called?

Is it the spark sheet that you get? Yeah.

Oh, good.

Right. And so could you tell people who are listening, like, what, what that, what is that? Not that. Not all the secrets, obviously.

It's kind of like just. It's like a run sheet. But I created it with a specific focus because in the book I talk about, spark is like an end to end process of designing a workshop. S is setting it up, the environment, getting clear on the purpose. P is powering up both yourself and the group. So power up is my favorite part of running any workshop. A is the core part of the workshops and main like your content, the activities you run. R is a review, reflection out. And K is cool, like continuous improvement. What resources can I keep for the next time I run so I don't continue reinventing the wheel? And so while that's like a metaphorical framework, I was like, how do we land this? And so the spark sheet basically is like a one pager. It will probably be longer when you fill it with your activities. But just you've got that sparksheet there which has. Okay, right up front. What is the purpose? What are we going to send beforehand? What prompts do I need? And three sort of subheadings underneath that, timing, topic and tools. And so for me, it's what I was using all the time when I was running my sessions. And I thought maybe it's helpful for other people. I love that you've called it out.

Absolutely. Because I think a lot of people think there's like some magic or like Some sort of secret that, that, that people just, I don't know, are born with about how to run a session. And what I love is that this takes it out of that, you know, ooh, mystery. Into a very practical thing that people can do. So I think someone who has not run a workshop before could, could take your book and go through the Spark model and the spark sheet and go, okay, this is entirely doable.

Yay.

Which, which I think. Yeah. And I would encourage all coaches to have a go.

Thank you. I mean, because it was written. It wasn't written for facilitators. It was like literally written for normal people who are like, you've got to run a workshop next week. That's who. So thank you for calling that out. Yeah, I appreciate that.

So, so, yeah, I, I, you know, I highly recommend it. So how do you, how do you work with, how can people work with you? Like, is, is the best way for them to get to, particularly coaches and facilitators, to tap into your knowledge? Is it, is it to read the book? Is it to work with you one on one? Like, what do you do?

Yeah, it really depends on what stage of the journey that they're at as well. So some, I mean, from the, I guess, like, there's free content. In terms of the podcast, I've got a Facebook group called the Flip Chart where people ask questions.

So cool.

It's fun. Yeah. Like 50 people in there. I think we're up to like two and a half thousand now around. Yeah. That's just on Facebook. I'm like, oh, I want to get off Facebook. But that group is so good. So I'm still. The book is a nice entry point for like the practicals and then more at the high end, I've got like a red carpet experience. So I had someone that was hosting a two day conference. She flopped from Sydney. We helped her redesign all that, the activities. We had champagne and hung out on rooftops, so it's something. And then Leanne on Demand's kind of in the middle for more if you need specific advice on a topic or a workshop. Asynchronous support. But yeah, it's. There's a ton of, I mean, different ways, but I think a nice start is the book and the podcast.

Yeah. Can I ask you a few, like, quick, quick fire, rapid fire questions, which is. I like to ask everyone, have you ever said no to work?

Yes.

What sort of things would you say no to?

It depends on the. Well, it depends on the call I have with the client and if they're so. If they're a bit too conservative or everything, it won't be. We won't be in alignment. I will make that call because there's been times where I've accepted opportunities because the money was good and I knew straight away it was not a good fit. And I was in a world of pain and I sort of promised myself not to do that again. Yeah.

If you could coach or run a session with any personal organization in the world, who would it be?

This. I've already. I did it two weeks ago with mbs and I was actually thinking, who else in the world would it be? Yeah. So Jenny Blake was the first author I ran, and we ran workshops in Paris and the Essence. Yeah. Who would it be? Who would it be? I'm really. And even for companies, my mind's just saying. Wanting to say Google, but I don't want to say Google. I would say, you know, maybe I would say something like an Apple in San Francisco would be kind of fun.

That would be super fun. Yeah. Oh, look, thank you so much for all of your time today. Like, you know, I feel like I could. Could keep talking to you for hours, Leanne, but, you know, I really appreciate it and, you know, I would encourage everyone who's listening. Check out the book. It is brilliant. And, you know, we'll. We'll keep in touch. I'll put lots of links in the show notes based on all the great info that Leanne has sent me. But thank you so much for being here.

Oh, thank you. Hosting, hosting. Such a great conversation. Like, good on you and well done on the podcasting consistency. And thanks so much for the invite today.

I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Business of Executive Coach. If you found it helpful, please share it with a colleague or friend on LinkedIn. And don't forget to tag me so I can say thanks. I would be tremendously grateful also if you would leave a review on Apple Podcasts. More reviews means more people can find us. This episode was brought to you by the Impact Coach Collective, where executive coaches grow their businesses in a community of peers with business, education, mentoring, deal clinics, and more. If you'd like to contact me or work with me further, all my free resources, courses and more info on the Impact Coach Collective can be found at elliscarf.

Com.

Have a brilliant week and I look forward to talking to you again soon.