Dr Saba Hasanie on using origins in your coaching work

Hello and welcome to the Business of Executive Coaching podcast. I am delighted to have a repeat guest today and for a very good reason. So today I am so privileged that we have Dr. Saba Hassani here to talk to us. Now, you may have listened to the previous episode that had Saba talking with me, which was all about Saba's corporate to coach story, a little bit about her passions. And today I wanted to make sure that I interrogated her in great detail because she has a book out, the book which I am waving up, but you probably won't see because this is on podcast, it's called Unfolding and the subtitle is How Biographical Inquiry Informs Meaning Making in Coaching Psychology. My hope for today is that we will sort of pull it apart, unpick it, get into the details of why this is such an important concept for coaches. But. But before all that, welcome Saba.

It's awesome to be back. Thanks for having me, Ellie.

Oh, you're most welcome. Now, before I know not everyone will have listened to the previous episode. So aside from my hyperbole and telling everyone that you're an extraordinary coach, an extraordinary coach supervisor, an academic, and, you know, a really brilliant business partner, would you mind giving us a bit of an intro about who you are, what you do, and then I'll ask more pointed questions.

Sure. Hyperbole is an interesting word. I don't identify with probably any of those statements. Those feel like what I do, who I am is I'm the mother of two very cool teenagers who are, you know, my greatest teachers every day. I am a outsider living in Singapore. This has been my home for 15 years. But I think I kind of identify with the label of outsider my whole life. I was born and raised as a second gen generation Canadian in Canada in a environment that looked and felt very different to how I looked and felt. And so while it was, you know, the best childhood in the world, it was also I was always different. So that's a big driver of kind of like everything that I do in life, I think. And then I happen to also be an executive coach, a coaching psychologist, someone who has built a beautiful business that has just gone from strength to strength. I get to do it with friends and people that I love, which is amazing. And yeah, I get to hold a probably a more balanced life than I necessarily feel I have the privilege to hold, but I'm grateful that I get to have it. And now I've added author to the mix and so that has been a fun place to play for the lesson. A lot as well.

Okay, so I've got so much to dive into. Firstly, congratulations on this book because I was working with you quite intensely when the research that is sort of underpinning this book took place. And it was amazing. And learning from you as well as, you know, the teachers at the time really transformed my coaching practice. And the way you articulate these concepts is unparalleled, in my opinion. So tell me, what does it feel like to have this book in the world?

Yeah, you know, you saying that made me feel really deeply emotional. Still is probably pinging, because you're right. You were there for a big part of the development of this stuff. So it feels very serendipitous to be here having the privilege to talk to you about it. So thank you, and thank you for allowing me to connect to it on an emotional level. It feels like an accomplishment of a goal that I had held both consciously and unconsciously for a really long time. And then it also in some way, kind of feels like just the start of something that I'm still trying to unravel. What it looks like and what it means. The process of authorship is a process. The only way I can describe it is that you have to be and do simultaneously in a way that you just don't get in a job. Right. It is the most insane experience it has been for me. It feels very different to my normal ways of being. But, yeah, in some ways, it's kind of like this little thing that I've just started scratching the surface of, and now I'm really excited about what it can mean. But, yeah, I'm deeply proud of the work and so grateful that I have been able to put it in the world. And, yeah, let's see. It's a seed I've sown, you know, planted. Let's see where it goes.

And before I go into more serious things, I do want to know, did you get to go and write in a cabin in a wood or by a lake somewhere and have, like, that really romantic authorial experience of, you know, just being by yourself with your creativity and bringing it to life? Or is that just what exists in my fantasy?

I think there's a lot of people who do that, and I think their work reflects it. I didn't get to do that in the practical writing phase. But what I will say is, because this research has been built over six years, and then it's been another two since I finally wrote the book, a lot of what informs the book are those moments that happened when I was in Nature. As you know, I'm a Canadian. So when I go back to Canada at least once a year and I spend as much of that time in nature as I can. And I think a lot of the things that show up in that book come from that space, which is, you know, not the space is sitting at my desk in my office plugging away, but the stuff that is the so what of where that research came from and what I wanted to share with the world. So yeah, the practical writing wasn't that way. Although now I'm creating more space. I'm writing the second book, so I'm creating more space for that. But a lot of the thinking excited about that. Yeah, me too. But yeah, so the thinking that informed it, I think comes from nature for me.

So I have been waving this book on zoom to basically every coach I have a meeting with saying like, you should read this. Who did you write it for?

That's a big question. If I'm really honest. Part of it was I wrote it for me and my dad. And then I think, you know, the other part of me was that I wrote it for my fellow coaches who sit in this really complex space of trying to be helpers and partners to people who are facing challenges in their lives in whichever way they are and trying to create some mechanisms that allow coaches to be more experimental with how they show up with their clients. Also how the work that they're doing on themselves simultaneous to the work they're doing with the clients is showing up. And so yeah, so I think this book is unequivocally for coaches. I designed find it especially for that. This is not the leadership book. This is not necessarily something that, you know, your average leader in an organization would read, but it is unequivocally written for my tribe. It's written for other coaches. But yeah, the truth and the honesty is there's a big part of it that I wrote it for me and my dad.

Yeah, I love that. And just to pull out something that you were sharing, which is how I've taken it and how I'm referring this book to people for is this intersection between our development as a coach and our development of our own self understanding. And that this is, you know, I've always been drawn to perspectives and models and training as a coach that allows me to go through an evolution at the same time as I'm developing my coaching capacity and perspectives. And to me, this book sits exactly in that space. And I will ask you about your program which is where people can be trained in this model, which I imagine sits in the same place. Is that accurate? Like, have I got that?

Absolutely. Yeah. I totally agree with you that our own journeys of self discovering or, you know, whatever is happening for us is absolutely a reflection of how we show up for our clients every day as well. And both have to be held simultaneously.

Yeah. And I do think sometimes that if we are leaning too far to, towards the skills and the delivery and the holding space for everyone else all the time and we aren't doing that work, that there can be almost a mechanistic feeling to how our coaching starts to feel. Starts to feel very tactical, very operational. And so I think we need that experience for ourselves, just to keep the passion and the joy and the excitement in what we do as well. So anyway, I think you're a great resource for that. So if anyone is like, yeah, I feel like I need those inputs, those reflections that we, you know, maybe got for the first time in our coach training. This is definitely the place to go. So can you give us a bit of cliff notes of what's the book about? What are the concepts that you explore in the book?

Yeah, my favorite question to ask coaches is how often does the past creep into your coaching? Whether you're seeking it out or it just creeps in, someone refers to their parent or a sibling or whatever. And so when I ask that question to coaches, whether I'm delivering a talk and I'm talking hundreds of coaches at a time, or I'm just doing supervision or mentorship, vast majority will say it's always, it comes in the room. Right. Like it can't be avoided. It, it's part of the natural dialogue for anyone who is doing some deep introspective work. And so with that, then if the past comes into the room, inevitably, then the question I always ask is, so what have you done to train yourself to cope with that and work with that? And I would say the vast majority of coaches will not have any formal training on how to work with that. There are some coaches and coaching psychologists certainly who come from psychological backgrounds. And so they are grounded with a lot of resources to help with that. But most coaching programs don't go into the past. Most coach training programs don't really spend a great deal of time there. And so I think that, to me, that was something that was really missing in the world. And I went, as you know, on a kind of a ten year deep dive in trying to figure out this idea, which is I fundamentally believe the past is always in the room, whether it's consciously or unconsciously informing the decisions that our clients are making. And so I really wanted to understand what was the empirical basis for us to do some of that work in coaching. And what I uncovered, as you know, was that there wasn't any. That primarily all of the empirical research that we had was borrowed from psychology. What we have built amazing capacity for is pause in coaching. So positive psychology has a phenomenal body of research. You work very closely with some of the best and the brightest in that place. I've learned so much from you also in that world. But we hadn't really done a lot in kind of borrowing the psychotherapeutic. Right. Let's go into childhood data and consciously work with it. And so, yeah, that was what really was the purpose behind the book and sharing what I had to take 10 years to figure out. And then also the research that I then developed as a part of the doctorate to just help people kind of short track that. Right. Like, you don't need to go and do all of that. I've done it. And so my gift is, here's the outcome of what that journey was for me.

So when coaches are at, like, an earlier stage of their, you know, their coach training, their coach development, like, there's a pretty strong, I would say, rhetoric or message in the training, which is, we don't go into the basement.

Right.

We don't go into the past. We don't go into the basement. We set our goals and we work towards it. How could they think, you know, to start to open up this idea that it's not necessarily dangerous or unsafe if we're using the tools appropriately to help our clients to think about the past and how the past is showing up?

Yeah, that's a really beautiful question that has a lot of complexity to the answer. Well, I think the first thing is that I think coaching 101 teaches us that it's not about our agenda, it's about the client's agenda. So if the client's bringing in the past in the room, you got to decide very quickly whether you're a new coach or you're really seasoned coach about what you're going to do with that. And so you can make the choice to say, no, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to go there. So I don't want to. But then I think that is in direct contradiction of what coaching is, which is following the client's agenda and the purpose of achieving something. So I think that it's not always a choice that we get to hold it comes in the room. And so then the question becomes, how do we cope? Or we deal with it. So whether you're a new coach or an experienced coach, I think that there's always going to be the need to be able to be prepared with a way to cope with that and deal with it. And so I think that even as a new coach, and this is an evolution in my thinking as well, so my coach training was only available to people who were of the equivalent PCC and over who had at least a couple of hundred hours of coaching. Because I also felt that, you know, it is an advanced technique. But as I have sat with it more and more and as I've continued to certify coaches more and more, what I've really found interesting is the newer the coach, the more exploratory our conversation in our certifications was. Because that then comes to exactly the point, Ellie, that you made earlier, which is it is as much about our own journey and the work that we've done on ourselves that shows up in how we coach. And a client isn't hiring you based on just your years of experience as a coach. A client is hiring you based on who you are, which is a summary of all of your work experience and life experience and other. And so to me, the delineation of how many years is a very arbitrary thing because the end of the day, you're in a room with another human being who is asking you to support them in some way. And so I think every coach has a responsibility to do that in some way.

Oh, I love that. And yeah, so if I'm a coach of any level, then I think the way I'm hearing you talk about it is it's not about putting in place some sort of boundary about what I will and won't talk about in this session, but instead about having the skills to do so safely. Right. While being mindful of, you know, various challenges that could emerge from a mental health perspective. Knowing when it's appropriate to refer and not to refer, but that actually if we have a framework, we can do it and keep it very focused on, yeah, the coachee, the coaching, the purpose of what we're doing, rather than feeling like we're veering into psychotherapy.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think intrinsic to that is that there is this false illusion that if we don't talk about the past, then any mental health concerns our clients are facing won't come in the room. It's just so ridiculous. It is our work is not therapeutic. That is unequivocally true. Our work is not designed, meant to be contractually defined as therapeutic. So our work is not in that therapeutic realm. However, any mental health challenges your client is facing, whether they're based on trauma, whether they're based on their own well being in the current moment, whether it's around cognitive diversity, whatever it is, they are there, they are presenting with that, whether you choose to explore where it came from or not.

Yeah.

And so the only then armor that we have as coaches or tools, maybe is a more appropriate word, is how much are we giving ourselves the spaciousness to explore this really both for ourselves and the stories of our own journey? Because part of our armor comes from our own comfort or discomfort with our own personal histories. But then also about even if you are not a coach who actively pursues the past, the past will come in. So if you can arm yourself with some knowledge and some information around how you can ethically work with that in coaching, I think is important. And again, a big reason why the book is there, because not everybody is going to want to invest in the training and the deep dive and the very exploratory work that comes from the certification. But they can gain something from the book. And if there's a little bit of wisdom that can be attained from that, then I feel like I've done what I can do in my really tiny way to contribute to our profession.

I love that. And you know, it is such a stark reminder. It's like, okay, just because I'm not talking about the past or doesn't mean that your anxiety doesn't exist in this moment. Right. It doesn't change whether, you know, depression is something you've experienced. It's still, you bring all of that with you wherever you go. And we can choose how we work with that as coaches. Yeah.

I mean, I think, not to get too off topic, but this delineation around the past in coaching is, you know, it's defined based on the bodies of coaching and how they wanted to differentiate themselves from the bodies in psychology. And the truth of the matter is, is humans are humans. And so we can delineate and differentiate as much as we want. When we're in a room with another human being. How we show up and connect to that human being is the work. And so how we lean on that and the different tools and techniques and information that defines that is totally up to each individual coach. But the delineation is artificial in my mind. What isn't artificial is our work is not meant to be therapeutic. Now there are People who would really challenge that still. But I do believe very much our work is not therapeutic, but our work is meant to integrate. And so if we can help with that integration mechanism in some way, I think it's very valuable.

And honestly, I think that is liberating for a lot of coaches. It allows them to sort of say, oh, take a breath. I get to show up and be fully present because they're somewhat competing messages. Right? Show up fully with your client and oh, but don't talk about this. So I think that is a really helpful message. Tell us a little bit about bdmm. So bdmm, when I first heard the term, I was like, this sounds interesting, Saba, tell me more about it. But BDMM is your model, and it refers to biographical dimensions of meaning making. Now, that sounds complicated but fascinating. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is?

Yeah. So BDMM is very much the academic term, which is a mouthful.

And what language do we use? Is there a better language for us to use?

Well, so we've just gone through this whole rebranding exercise, and now what we are talking about is this whole body of work sits under the notion of origins. So we're calling it origins work. If you go through the certification, you're an origins coach. And for me, origins feels like a much cleaner and more simple way of thinking about going into the past than bdmm, which is the empirical framework it sits on. But foundationally, where this work came from was when I was doing the doctoral research, my starting question was, do we need to work with the past in coaching in order to change or shift behaviors? So the starting premise was if coaching is designed to help a person achieve goals and therefore shift something about their being or behaviors or how they show up, so there's some element of behavioral change. Is the past essential to it? And so obviously, there's all of the secondary research that pretty much articulates that, yes, your past is very highly correlated to how you show up today. So there was no doubt about that in the empirical research. But then the question was, okay, so how do we do it? So what is it about our past that we need to look at that is important in informing the work that we do in coaching? And so for me, that was about linking leadership behaviors, our certain leadership tendencies, to elements of our past. And so as a result of that, and so the primary research approach that I used was talking to really experienced coaches who had at least a couple of decades of experience and wisdom behind them. And I said, well, tell me a little bit about how you link elements of our childhood to leadership tendencies. And so what invariably came out of that research was that there were six core dimensions that we found to be highly correlated to leadership tendencies. And without getting into the technical nuances of each of those dimensions, fundamentally it came down to our relationship with power. It came down to our relationship with trust, to be trusted and to be in trust relationships. It came down to our relationship with control, with our own identity and who we are as human beings. It came into our relationship to, like, our relationship with being in relationship. Right. How do we build and form connection, the spectrum of our emotional awareness? So these are not topics that are uncommon to explore in coaching. But I think what makes the Origins work unique is that it helps you try to figure out how do we go into an unlocking of the patterns that someone has held since a very young age to help inform the way they show up around these dimensions today? And so to make that a really practical experience is that you might have a client who comes in and really struggles with delegation. Right? So they're like, you know, I love my job, I love what I do, but I feel like I'm burning out a little bit. I've been given feedback that I need to delegate more, and yet somehow they don't have the ability to do that. And what I have experienced a lot in those explorations was that delegation boiled down to trust and control. How much control was a client really willing to let go of? And what is their historical reference around control? Like, can I really feel safe if I don't control the outcome? And it is about trust and our ability to trust. Right. Do you have to prove your worthiness to me before I trust you, or is it something that I give trust until it's, you know, taken away? And so, again, it's about the delineation of, we can cognitively know that we need to do things, but we also know we can't quite commit to doing them. And so, for me, BDMM allows you to do a much deeper dive, to say, so what is your story around trust, and what is your story around control? And how might that be showing up for you in this context?

And honestly, I can't imagine many models that would be more helpful in those dynamics. Right? Because I think anyone coaching has come across a leader who has been in that exact situation, right, where they're supposed to delegate more, but they find it very difficult. Either they've, you know, had external feedback about that, or there is an internal sense of you know, this is very difficult for me. So, yeah, I can. I think that's a great example of how it plays out in a practical coaching engagement. How do people factor it into their process as a coach? Right. Is it something that you deliberately do upfront when you're coaching, or is it something that emerges over the course of a coaching engagement?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think it can be both. And other. You know, for me, the way that I have historically worked on it is that people will come to me because this is a big orientation of how I see the world. And so inevitably, no one is surprised when I'm like, tell me about your childhood, because I've kind of set myself up in that way. And so inevitably, for me, it does tend to sit in the front. But equally, it is something that emerges as our trust increases in the coaching relationship. What I find more interesting is then how my coaches who are being certified through this program, how are they utilizing it? I think some are using it up front, some are using it as it emerges. But for me, the really basic way of exploring it is that if you find your client brings something to coaching that they feel is real challenge or they feel like, you know, I know this about myself, but I haven't been able to unlock it yet. The very simple but profound question is, and how long has this been a part of you? How long has this story been. Been with you? And when you ask what feels like a simple question but just so complex, just seeing how far back a client is willing to go is kind of how you bring it in the room. And so some clients will go right back to like, listen, I was born in a family that, you know, parents had control, we had no control, whatever it was. Right. Like, so they're going back to their origin story. Yeah. And for others, they might start at their first job, or they might start at an experience they had in primary school when they were like, eight or nine. And so it's about really allowing the client to control where they go, how far back they go. But it is as simple as, you know, really asking that questions like, how long has this been with you?

Yeah.

And they give you the boundary then about where to go and how far back, which I think is the most useful starting point.

And I'm assuming then, like you said, as trust is built, that the layer, you know, like the onion is just open to new layers emerging, new depth as you evolve that.

Yeah, definitely.

That's amazing. So I'm imagining lots of coaches listening to this, going, yep, I want some of this. So obviously they can read the book. But you have mentioned that you have a program where you certify coaches to use the model. Tell us about the program. How does it work? Who can do it? All of the above.

Yeah. So the program has been a program that I designed and tweaked and redesigned. I don't know what the right word is, but I've been offering it for five years now. We've got just under 100 people who've been certified in it, which is really beautiful and amazing. And that number grows every single year. And we have made tweaks and edits based on the coach's experience, going through it foundationally. There's two really important elements to it. There's the coach's experiential journey of self, and then there is how do I hold this process for somebody else? And so we hold both of those elements simultaneously in the program. Our entry points for it change in different ways. But this is a program that is designed to be your own journey with your history and your background and unraveling the layers. And as much as it is about building skills and tools and capabilities around holding this work for others, it comes back to where we started. Our conversation, which is our own journey, is so reflective of how we show up in the room. The other thing that I am doing a lot more of now is also bringing in other really experienced coaches to help become faculty on this. As much as I feel so blessed and excited by the way that I work with this data, and I want to share that with as many people, what I've also found really useful is them learning from other coaches who also do a lot of this work and understand different modalities and different ways that coaches can experience it. And so what I'm also doing is building the faculty pool that is training on BDMM and that is also then informing the design and then the different levels of certification that you can get within it. So it is a very emergent process. Every program that we go through, it's very delineated what you're going to get at the end of those days. And so we've got very clear learning objectives, but it is very experiential. It is designed to be and increases its experiential design every iteration that we go through. But we also then make sure that people have really practical tools, models, frameworks. We're doing coaching. You know, we're coaching each other in real time. We're getting feedback around how we're showing up and Trying to merge the experiential with the practical as much as we can. So that's kind of a little bit of what you could expect in the program.

Amazing. And so like from a practical perspective is that, you know, how is it multiple days when you're together? Is there sort of follow up coaching? How does it structure?

Yeah, right now the structure is five half days of live online learning and then there's probably about two to four hours depending on how much you want to invest. You know, we kind of give coaches everything and then they get to decide how deep they want to go. But there is usually pre work and pre videos around understanding the context and where some of this data and research comes from that are before them. Then we also do individual supervision and group supervision. So that has been a really important element of just kind of bringing this experience to a much more felt and applied mechanism for self. And so I think the individual supervision which is profound. And you know, some of the people who supervise are very dear friends to both you and I. They're just, they're magnificent and they meet the coach where they're at and are able to do some really deep explorative work there. And then the group supervision is that you get to hear from other coaches and understand what they're going through and their experience, which I think is just, just also immensely useful. So those are the different components. There's a live online, there's the individual supervision, there's a group supervision and then there's a lot of videos and articles and research that sit behind it that you can lean into or not as much or as little as you want.

And so if people want to learn more about the program, where should they go? We will of course put a link in the show notes.

Yeah. So I think a great place to start is the website www.globalosc.com. you will see a link to BDMM which is going to change to Origins very soon.

So by the way, that's great.

Oh, thank you. I wish I could take credit for it. We worked with an extraordinary brand consultant. She's magnificent. And help us got there and I think it's really reflective of.

Yeah, it feels very accurate and evocative and descriptive.

Yeah, I think I wish I could take credit for it. I can't take any credit for it.

I think you kind of can. You created it maybe.

I love that. But anyways, this is another example of partnering with people who know how to.

Do things way better. So that's. Yeah.

So yeah, I think the website is probably the first place to start. I think if you just Google my name, you'll probably see some of the webinars that I've given. There's a lot of free information online, so for anyone who might be interested, I think that's probably the right place. And then the book, I think is, you know, deep and it goes really heavy into kind of the research foundations around it. So I think that anyone who's very interested inquiring and like, where does this come from? What was the methodology that this framework was built on? What are some of the stories in the context that weave this framework? Anyone who kind of really wants to understand the background, I think that they will find that really, really useful and a good starting place for any of this work.

Yeah, amazing. So I'll make sure we've got the link for the program, the book, and if you want to send through any links for videos that people could watch to capture some live webinars, that'll be great. But I have to ask, of course, with my business hat on, how might people, how might coaches use this sort of this approach, this certification in marketing themselves as a coach?

Great question. I'm finding that I am playing with that so much more. I started with kind of the theoretical knowledge and I'm like, I want to share this knowledge with everyone. But in a world where coaches are having to make some really deliberate choices around their learning and really deliberate choices about, like, where do I want to invest my time? I think it's a really a very fair and useful question that I'm asked on a pretty regular basis. So I think that, you know, foundationally there is a mechanism of saying that the coaching industry has grown so dramatically definitely in the last decade. But if you kind of look at our origin story in the last 40, 45 years, it's grown immensely. One barometer that I use for that is in Singapore. I used to be part of the ICF executive committee and at that time we had about 220 coaches, which our leaders from 10 years were prior to that. And this is already like 15 year old data. There are like, we had dozens. Now when I go to the ICF community, I'm going to be speaking at the Singapore chapter in a few weeks from now. They have thousands, yeah, thousands of coaches now. And so the industry has grown dramatically. And so the question that I always think about is like, as a coach, how are you differentiating yourself beyond kind of your core foundational coach training? What is the thing that makes you unique? Now, of course, the thing that makes you unique is your history and your past and, you know, all of your unique qualifications and capabilities and credentials. I mean, all of that is part of your story. But I think that we are living in a world that is increasingly disconnected. We're living in a world that is increasingly complex. We're living in a world where the intersection between human and technology is becoming more and more blurred. I think if you can find a way to be able to help connect people to the things that they're both actively thinking about, but also their context is just such a useful place for a client to be able to unravel that. And so I think that if you are a coach that's saying, listen, I have psychologically informed practices under my belt, I've received formal training in this that extends beyond what you would get in kind of your first level coach training, and that you have the ability to sit with the bigger existential questions that clients are facing. I think all of that makes you uniquely differentiated in the environment and feels a little bit beyond just the performance optimization story that we often hear with coaching. It's really definitely in the leadership maturity framework world of like, how do we increase our complexity stage and how we dance with that? And so I think that's all there. And then foundationally, you will show up differently when you have this training. You will show up with so much more confidence because you're no longer worried about where can I go and where I can't go. You're going to go there. You're going to go into some pretty heavy places for yourself. And I think that just allows you to then show up more fully. Right. Which is not, here's where I play and here's where I don't play. But actually really saying I can show up with another human being and no matter what they throw at me, I'll be okay, because I've got some really great foundations to back that. So I think it's just a really unique way of differentiating yourself beyond just a level one certification. And also here is my technical experience and, you know, all the different roles that I've held. But it's also about holding deeper existential conversations, which I think, you know, what is it? This Bonnie world, not the VUCA world anymore, is forcing all of us to look at in ways that we didn't expect.

Yeah, I agree with that. And particularly that sort of, that embodiment of this broader, this deeper practice and this ability to show up in deeper ways, I think is really important. And I'm always, of course, Talking to coaches about sales conversations. Right. So when we show up with our clients and, like, the purchases of coaching, like, what does that look like? And oftentimes in larger organizations, they are actually quite sophisticated in terms of what they've been exposed to. And so for you to. Where I like you to end up as a coach is to be a thought partner with that person. Right. Not here to say, you know, please hire me, but actually to say, let's get down and dirty with your problems and let's figure out the best way you're going to solve them. And I think having this perspective, these tools in your toolkit, really allows you to do that on a, I think, a more confident basis, but a more robust basis as well, which.

Yeah, I totally agree. You know, so much of coaching is around how do we change behavior? And for me, the origins work is understand the stories behind the behavior.

Yeah.

And that, to me, I think if you can go there and help people understand what is the meaning. People show up and act in certain ways because there's really profound data for them to have supported why they show up the way they do. So when you understand the stories behind the behavior, which is kind of our tagline for origins, I think it just allows you to just do such deeper work, I think, in so many different ways.

I agree. And again, to be kind of pragmatic, I think that once we have that confidence in our ability to do that deep work, I do think it opens up our potential around what we charge for our work as well. And, you know, how comfortable we feel in sort of expanding ourselves in that way. Not that we necessarily would, but if that's something people have been grappling with. Right. Which is that feeling of, oh, you know, what is the. How do I feel A conviction in the value that this process is bringing for the person I'm with, then I think this can help also to bridge that gap.

Totally. I think the pattern that we all get into, especially when we're starting our coaching career, is like, what are all the tools that I can gain in my toolkit? And that. I don't think that's wrong. Like, I think that there's a lot of value and importance to having different psychometric assessments and different.

You and I have got a hefty toolkit behind us.

We do. Exactly. We're very similar feathers in that way. But equally. And what came for me a little later, which I'm loving, that coaches are experimenting with it sooner than I did probably, is that one of the most foundational tools in Our toolkit is our being. And it's not about having this product that we can sell or this assessment that we can give someone, but it's about being in ease with who we are as human beings. And our clients are going to feel that energy almost immediately. And allowing them to find ease in their being, I think is just so important. And in a world that is stacked with doing right, how do we explore that being in a way that actually is so foundational to the doing? Anyways, so, yeah, so I think it's a very useful place to go. And honestly, I think. And, you know, because you've been on such a big part of my, you know, exploratory journey as a coach is that in the beginning, it was all about doing right. What are the things that I can do as a coach and what are the services I can offer you? And what is the, you know, all of those beautiful letters behind my name that I can offer you? And it wasn't until kind of maybe the midpoint of my career that I realized that the biggest thing I could offer my clients is a sense of being that felt more connected to them in true partnership. And so part of this journey is about hoping that I can help that for other coaches and giving them mechanisms to connect in a way that we'll feel, from the moment you open your call with a client, feel different than, I think, what you would get with a coach who's focused solely on the doing and the tools and all of those. And you get tools anyway, so.

Yeah, so it's not.

Yes, exactly.

Look, I love it. And, Sabra, I'm sure lots of people are going to be looking you up and reading the book and hopefully signing up for your program. So on that note, I want to say a huge thank you for being here with me today. I also always love our conversations. I leave inspired and, you know, almost ready to dive in myself. But I have to not do as many programs as I used to do. But I'll be reading the rest of the book. I'm halfway through, so I'm very excited.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

You're most welcome. And everyone, check out all of the links in the show notes, okay?