Emma Clark on Building a Coaching Business After Healthcare Leadership

Hello and welcome to the Business of Executive Coaching podcast. I have a very, very special episode today. I'm really pleased to introduce to you Emma Clark. And Emma is a member of the Corporate to Coach accelerator and an extraordinary coach and just all around wonderful human being. So I'm really pleased to have her here today.

Thank you for having me today. It's awesome to be on of my favorite podcasts that I have binged every single episode of.

Yeah, I've got a very big smile when Emma says that, so I'm very excited.

It's very cool. So my corporate to Coach story. I have more than 25 years in healthcare, so I started off as a registered nurse. I always wanted to have what I used to call my own ward. So I always wanted to be the manager of a ward and manage a team of nurses and be responsible for for an amazing ward that delivered excellent care and had, you know, happy, excellent nurses on it. That was always my goal. And so I achieved that very quickly after I became a registered nurse. So I did my training in London and I worked in London for a few years. Then I came to Australia to see what it was like here. And I've never left. And so in Australia was my first experience of having my own ward as a nursing unit manager. And then I went off and I had a baby. And then I realized that my ward and my nurses were like a baby. But now I had a real live baby and I felt like I couldn't give my ward what I had given whilst having a baby. And so after I was due to return to work after I had my baby, I rang my boss and I said, I don't want to, want to go back to that job. And my boss nearly fell over and she was like, of all the people of all the nursing unit managers that I have, I never would have thought that you would ring me up and say that. And so I was really lucky. I was. There was an opportunity for me to step into a project role and that really set me on sort of a slightly different career trajectory. So I did a lot of work for a number of years in elective surgery, waiting list management. So it was quite a long time ago, so that baby is now. And so waiting lists was quite new that we were sort of able to access the data and know how many people were waiting for surgery. And it was really in that sort of infant days. We didn't have policy about it then. It had just become a guideline and sort of since then it's become policy and there are KPIs and funding and performance measures attached to it. So it's really grown from there. But that was all very new work. It was quite big, it was quite scary, but it was exciting because it's what people were starting to pay attention to. And the work grew and we did some amazing work. And that led me on to sort of other roles in the same space that were quite senior and then sort of quite senior in the hospital in one specific part of the hospital. I then went on to do some work sort of managing the site of the hospital site after hours. That was quite fascinating, being the most senior person on the site overnight for a number of hospitals on the same site. So had some really interesting experience from that. And then I stepped into the statewide world of healthcare in New South Wales. So I worked on some project that worked.

Is that within the government system?

Yes. Yeah. So New South Wales Health, statewide projects and programs. And then that was very fascinating, stepping into the sort of head office environment and it's quite political and you're looking at the whole of the state and, you know, you know, metropolitan Sydney is very different to Outback Broken Hill. And I was able to travel around the state a lot, running. I predominantly worked in the workforce, space rostering and workforce. So run a lot of workshops, workshops and focus groups across the state. And then I got my sort of my big job as the Director of Program Management for New South Wales Health. So a central position, you know, in the government Department of Health. And that was a big job and I was able to build a brilliant team and we did some great work. And then Covid hit and.

Oh, my God, I can't imagine.

Yeah, it was a bit crazy. And so I had a lot happening in my personal life at the same time. So it was kind of perfect storm. There was Covid, you know, it was big job in healthcare and. Yeah. So some personal life challenges that really set me to thinking about, did I still really want a big job? If I didn't, what else could I do that wasn't so big, but that would still, you know, keep a roof over my head and my kid's head and enable me to, you know, still work with people, still help people, still have impact and make use of the experience and the skills that I have developed over, you know, many, many years. So it's quite a long journey of thinking about what that could look like. I have the privilege, absolute privilege of having worked with a couple of executive coaches along the way. So executive coaching was something I was fairly familiar with, was a Big fan of and had, you know, sort of reaped the rewards of having the support of a good executive coach along the way. So I was able to sort of re engage with an executive coach that I had worked with quite early on in my career. And we embarked on, you know, on a journey of thinking about what else, what else could there be out there for me professionally. In the short term, I was able to sort of almost manifest an opportunity to go on a second and work in another area of health for a while. And I did that and it was. I was able to do that part time and I didn't manage a team, so it kind of took a bit of the pressure off and that was a great experience and, you know, we did some good work there. But it wasn't quite what I was looking for.

It was a step, it was not the goal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was a step. And then I sort of had this plan to take some of my long service leave, do my coach training and sort of get myself out there while I was on long service leave, you know, and sort of build a bit of a Runway into executive or into coaching, actually. So initially I was very resistant to thinking about coaching leaders or leaders in health care. And so I have another part of me which is, you know, sort of bit of a fitness fanatic. I love CrossFit and I also coach CrossFit as well. So I stepped briefly into the sort of women's well being and functional fitness training space which I had been doing sort of anyway, because I love it.

Yeah.

But I sort of lent into that for a while and then there were series of events and I actually found your podcast, Ellie, and I started listening to your podcast and it made me angry. Oh, oh.

I really want to hear Emma alluded to a story that she was going to tell me. So I'm thinking, I'm thinking it's coming. What made you angry, Emma?

Obviously it was touching on a bit of a raw nerve. Right. The universe was sending me these signals that I should be leaning into the experience that I had. And yeah, it made me angry because it was like, what? It's can't. It's not that easy. You know, we can't just. Not that you made it sound easy, but it was like I was very shut off to it and it rubbed up against that sort of closedness that I had. Yeah, yeah. And I remember saying to a friend that I've been listening to this podcast. It was really, really good, but it makes me really angry. My friend said, well, why don't you just stop listening? I was like, I can't.

Oh, I love this.

So listening to the podcast really made me think about, I think there was an episode and you were, you were talking about, you know, using your professional background and using your professional connections. And yeah, one day I was like, I just need to lean into that and, and see where that goes. So I think it was when I was still working in, so I was on long service leave, I felt there was this sort of, you know, I was actually employed. And so, you know, that was a bit of a problem in my brain. And then I actually was, I believe I manifested a redundancy. So I was off on long service leave. I was doing my coaching training, I was doing some women's well being coaching. I was listening to your podcast and I was like, if I could just get out of my. I didn't want to go back to my job. I knew that. And I was already working on a plan. If I could be made redundant, it would buy me some time, time and I could, you know, invest more time and energy in, you know, building something. And I was very fortunate I was made redundant. It was a very easy decision to take the redundancy and call it, you know, call it quits on that bit. And then, you know, by sort of really thinking about, you know, what I had already so, you know, a network, a reputation, professional experience, you know, leadership experience, I eventually came around to the idea that was where I should be and what I should be doing. And that was about so close to 18 months ago now. And so, yeah, have been leaning into the healthcare industry, which is what I know. If I know anything, I know healthcare. If I understand anything, I understand hospitals and healthcare practitioners.

And that so many layers of complexity, right. From so many different stakeholder perspectives.

That's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I've done a lot of work over the years with, you know, lots of interdisciplinary work as well. So, you know, I worked very closely with, you know, surgeons and anesthetists and, you know, general managers of hospitals and, you know, other, you know, workforce managers. So I have, yeah, it's multi layered and of course have that clinical experience back in the UK as well, which is, which is slightly different.

Yeah.

So, yeah, bring that rich depth and understanding and that comes through.

Yeah, I, you know, and knowing you and the work you do, I can see that. And I just want to point out for, you know, people who are listening that there's some commonalities in Emma's story that I hear in A lot of coaches that I meet, which is, I love this idea that when this idea that we need to do this starts tapping us on the shoulder, it will come about in ways that we may not even imagine at the time. And so, you know, there are so many examples of redundancies coming just at the point where people are like, should I just quit? Or you know, I don't want to go back. And it's really interesting to note how these things come about. And of course, you know, I'm very evidence based but there's a big bit of like that woo, you know, to me as well. And so, yeah, I hear you on that. And you know, I have a really similar story that when I started coaching I told myself never going to work with lawyers. I don't want to work with law firms, don't want to work with lawyers. By the end of, you know, by, well, BY I guess 20, 21, which was the year before I sort of lent into the accelerator, I would say 70% of my work was lawyers, law firms in house, legal teams, judiciary bodies, you name it, give me a lawyer. And I loved it, right. I grew to really love it because once I sort of, I think you have to let go of a little bit of maybe the trauma, the sting that exists from some of those tricky experiences. You realize that, yeah, this is, there is so much you have to offer because you can help to make that a better environment in lots of different ways. So it can feel quite purpose driven as well. So I can see, I know a little bit about, you know, what you do now, but tell us about, who do you work with now? How does your work, how has your work rolled out? I guess since you've been in business.

Yes, it's been quite fascinating and then, yeah, sort of quite the journey. So now I work with sort of healthcare leaders and organizations. So I have, you know, one on one clients that are, you know, they contract me and they fund the engagement. Now they might want to work on, you know, managing their stress from having a very difficult role, undergoing lots of change and lots of pressure. They might want to work on their career growth. They might be looking for a new role, they might be new in a more senior role and looking for support. And some people work with me just to pick my brain slightly more consulting as well. So, you know, often people that I know will reach out and say, you know, we've got this thing we're working on and we'd really like an extra, extra pair of eyes on it. And I love that work too. And then I support organizations who are, you know, either proactively investing in their high performance leaders and they're wanting to, you know, support and encourage and retain them, or they might be an organization that's got some challenges, maybe going through some significant change, who are wanting to support their leaders through that and sort of, you know, period of increased stress and pressure. They also might be looking just for some support with an existing leadership, you know, program or strategy and might bring me in for that. So that looks like one on one coaching. That looks like some leadership workshops and training and group programs as well.

And so if you talk about the organizations that you work with, I'm assuming is there like mostly healthcare and healthcare adjacent or do you work with, you know, sort of anyone? How does, how do you, who do.

You work with so open to working with anyone. But most of my clients have been either in healthcare or education so far. I think there's a good crossover between health and education. I observe lots of similarities, lots of similar challenges and yeah, quite sort of, you know, similar sort of, you know, impact driven individuals.

Yeah.

And I think it makes a lot of sense for a healthcare organization if they're looking for leadership support or executive coaching for their people that it's someone with a healthcare experience. I think there's a particular culture in healthcare, it's slightly different wherever you go, but generally that can be quite hard for people outside of healthcare to get their head around and understand, you know, how a hospital works or you know, how a government health department works and is affected by things like, you know, machinery of government and political pressure. So it makes a lot of sense for an organization to pick an executive coach that has experience in their industry. I think. Yeah.

And even for, I guess, private organisations who interact with that healthcare system, having someone who has insight into those dynamics is pretty valuable.

Yeah, I think so. It saves a lot of sort of explaining from the client's end, you know, so if a client's talking through a particularly challenging sort of, you know, situation, you know, they can just, you know, tell me that it, you know, happened, you know, in this area with this team or, you know, in this area of their hospital. And I just understand how that works and doesn't need any extra explaining. I think that's helpful. I think it also really helps to, you know, sort of build trust and credibility in that coaching relationship as well.

And so obviously you have quite a broad suite of offers. Like, can you tell me a little bit more about like the actual hands on work you do? I think you said coaching plus some leadership development and some team stuff. Tell us a little bit more about that.

So my favorite is one on one coaching with leaders and supporting them in their role. And that often looks like, you know, spending a day with them on site and getting a feel for, you know, how they are in the workplace and also meeting with their sort of leader manager as well. Often at the beginning of that relationship we might do like an alignment session where we get really clear about everyone's expectations and what we're working on and towards. And that often includes as well some stakeholder interviews with other people that they work with. It might involve the use of external assessments as well to give us some data points. So that's the sort of the one on one piece and that's, you know, if the organization has, you know, commissioned that sort of one on one for private clients is really led around what they're looking to work towards. One of my favorite things to do with one on one clients is supporting them with their sort of career journey. So I love supporting people with, you know, applying for new roles, getting interview Ready, getting their CV ready, getting their LinkedIn profile ready and you know, really showcasing who they are and what they sort of, you know, what they stand for and helping them with that sort of brand awareness. With organizations from a team perspective, I've done a number of sort of team work, team development workshops, workshops. We've done a little bit of triad coaching with leaders as well. I love to work with teams in a really sort of positive strength spaced approach. So I've recently done some team workshops with a leadership team of a particular clinical service and we had remit to do two workshops. So we did one with the leadership team and as part of looking back at, you know, sort of what was working well, what successes did they have and what challenges did they have coming up? One of the things that they identified was that their capacity was, was stretched and it was low. And, and so, you know, we designed the next workshop together to try and help build some additional capacity. And one of the ways in which we did that was to bring sort of the next level of leaders into the next workshop and really look at building them up as well. And that really enabled them to tap into some additional capacity because they had people in that next layer down that had energy, that had capacity, that had particular skills and a desire to, you know, learn more, take on more. So collectively that gave the leadership team some additional capacity. It's also really helped them with their succession planning moving forward as well.

So I'm hearing like a really interesting thread of consulting weaving through a lot of the work you do. Do you see that as something like, is that something you actively promote or is it sort of something that comes along with the work and you sort of can't help it? Are you marketing it?

I haven't really been kind of marketing as coaching and consulting, but I think it's something that clients often seek out. So there's often, you know, questions. This is, we're doing this, you know, like, what else would you add? They'll ask, you know, what else would you add? What ideas do you have? And I do that work as well. The other piece of work with organisations is this kind of spot that healthcare organisations can get themselves into when they're kind of. They've got some performance challenges and they're working on particular areas of need. So often, you know, sort of post, you know, incidents or post reviews when there's significant work that needs to be done to make change and bring people along on the journey. I do really love that work as well. I spent a fair bit of time sort of working in the hospital sort of performance support space, so working with hospitals when they were, you know, needing to increase their performance in an area. So I have a lot of experience in that space. So that's a natural sort of nice fit for my sort of coaching slash and consulting. And, well, and sounds like a perfect.

Blend because the consulting alone would be really like, here's a to do list. This is what you need to do. Whereas the coaching and facilitation that you offer brings it to life in context and brings the people into the story.

Definitely. And so I'm very, you know, people driven. And one of the experiences of healthcare organizations that's quite common and I've seen it a lot, is that we often bring consultants in to tell us what to do, but then sometimes we can't actually make that happen ourselves. We need, you know, ongoing support to make those changes happen and stay, you know, kind of top of list. Because in the world of healthcare, there's so much change and such a rapid pace that things need support to get.

Across the line and such a complex regulatory environment as well. So having someone who understands that is really valuable. And for anyone listening, like, you know, I would encourage you to think about what is it in your story and in your background that is, you know, analogous to that.

Right.

So for me it might be my legal experience, but for others it might be that you understand as you've been an HR practitioner in a certain industry Right. And so you have that deep knowledge of the industry and I think that depth is what really, I think Emma's talking about and I think is super valuable to clients. So tell us about starting a business rather than, I'm going to ask a specific question. What have you learned about yourself through starting a business?

So I think the phrase, you know, the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. So I absolutely love my business. It is like a little baby to me and I'm very proud of it. And that has a lot of similarities to, you know, how I've run my teams as a healthcare leader, you know, how I, how I felt about my job in the past, which, you know, has led me to this teetering with burnout. It's easy to keep giving when you're really passionate about something and you know, steal time and energy and capacity from other parts of you to pour in. So that's been quite fascinating having sort of, you know, come back from being burnt out to now kind of noticing like, oh, you need to take a break. So you know, when I'm talking with clients about, you know, well being strategies to help them, you know, manage their stress and manage the demands that, you know, big roles can, can take on them, you know, I'm also talking to myself. You know, I, I know all the things I need to do for my well being but sometimes I just get so into my work that. Yeah. That those things sometimes don't happen. So yeah, having this business is, it feels like a real privilege and it feels like whenever I achieve something I feel this feeling of like, oh, I did that. Yeah, like it's all like there's, you know, I'm used to working in massive organizations, right. You know, with, you know, all different team you can ask to do things and you know, get help from. So it's as a, you know, lone ranger. Everything that comes out of the business is, is me or you know, a big part of me. So I'm quite proud of that. I've learned that, you know, building support in is really important so you know, having people who understand the journey. So my, you know, my social circle would, you know, generally made up of people similar to me. So you know, I've got, you know, friends and family that, you know, work for government or you know, their teachers or their healthcare people. So having stepped out to do something, you know, really quite different, it's been important for me to build, you know, people around me that understand that, you know, friends and family are supportive. But you know, often don't sort of get it. Yeah, it is different. Yeah. So building support's been really important and finding those.

Where have you found those people? Like, I'm assuming it's like through your coach training and hopefully in the accelerator, but is there any way you would direct people to think about when they're. When they're building their networks?

Yeah. So definitely from my coach training, I have found a, you know, very, very good buddy through that. Definitely through the accelerator and working. Working with you. Ellie's been great to have someone who's, you know, cropped the path before me and it's been great picking your brain and learning everything I can from you. Don't never miss up an opportunity to pick your. I love it. So I'm very grateful for that. The other place I've found support from is, you know, other people that I already knew in, you know, in my world who had sort of, you know, started their own business. So there were a few of them and then was incredibly fortunate to find a really good local women's business networking group. And a bit of a funny story there as well. So the last, last assessment task for my coach training was to attend a networking event. It was part of the sort of view, the very small business development part of the coach training. And so I had to attend a networking event and there were some tasks and I had to write it up afterwards. So I found a local networking event to go to and I found my tribe.

Oh, I love that.

So it's a local group. It's called Women with Altitude. I'm a on the leadership team now. Yeah. Probably send me posting about them. Yeah. So I'm on the leadership team of the Hills and Parramatta chapter here in Sydney. And it's a group of women who are, you know, they've all got their own business. There's a real eclectic range of business types. But I've been really fortunate to find, you know, support with videography there. Found I've made some brilliant friends and it's a really lovely, supportive group and we meet once a month. So that's been really wonderful.

Oh, that's amazing. So definitely. Yeah, definitely something to think about if, you know, for anyone listening who is in that process or it might be in the early days and feeling like something's missing. I think sometimes finding those communities is often the thing we're missing because we've moved from this role where we usually had, like, many both friends and colleagues and people who could do lots of things and who had the answers and suddenly, like, you Said now it's all ourselves and there's something hugely to be proud of.

But.

But we can also make it easier on ourselves. What have the challenges been?

So no surprise to you, Ellie? The main challenge for me is the roller coaster.

Yes.

So it's been a bit of a. Yeah, well managed, but, you know, sort of emotional roller coaster of that I'm, you know, that I'm now really working on sort of flattening out a bit. So this kind of, you know, some weeks are really busy and other weeks are not, and some weeks that I can see so many opportunities and I'm having lots of conversations and I'm doing lots of client work, and then other weeks it feels really flat and I'm not quite sure where the next opportunity is. So, yeah, that has been a challenge for me, but I've been able to navigate that, you know, with support and talking to people that understand that, you know, kind of that's the way it is. And there are things we can do to sort of, you know, flatten out that roller coaster. So that's been a challenge. Sometimes it can feel a bit lonely, but, you know, like I said, building that support's been important for me. And, yeah, I guess the other thing is, you know, sometimes there are, you know, I have like, you know, ideas, or someone says, oh, can you do this? And I have to, you know, think about, is that a good idea? Or I think, well, yeah, I can do that, but, you know, do I want to do that? Should I be doing that in my business? So, yeah, again, I think, you know, the solution to that is support and people around you that you can bounce ideas off. Yeah, I think they're the main challenges. You know, another challenge is the, you know, sort of the financial challenge. You know, I've spent many, many years with a fortnightly salary coming in and it's this. Pretty much the same salary every fortnight, you know, and I can have a sick day and I can take a carer's day when someone else is, you know, needs my support and I can go on a holiday. That's quite different, having your own business. But, you know, that's not a surprise. I knew that was coming. And again, there are things that you could do to, you know, help smooth that out. But, yeah, you know, that's just another little piece too.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think everyone listening will be like, yep, I get that. Both the roller coaster and the financial lumpiness. And I think it's the nature of the roller coaster and that lumpiness that that Makes the down periods feel very intense. Because when we look back at it, we can say, oh, yeah, it was just the little dip in the roller coaster because then there was an upswing, and. And there is an upswing every time, but when we're in it, it's so hard. And so I think having the support to help navigate that is so important.

And I think that's testament to the, you know, sort of the passion that I have for it and the love. The passion that I have for the work and the love that I have. Have for my business. That. That. Yeah, I really feel that. Yes.

Yeah, that's a good point. Because if we didn't care about what we were doing, it wouldn't hit us in that same way. And so, yeah, I think that's a really beautiful reframe. What are you most proud of?

Oh, I'm so proud. I'm so proud that I was brave enough to take the risk. I'm proud that I was strong enough to sit with it for long enough. So this, you know, sort of transition out, you know, from corporate to coach, like, it took a while to sort of percolate the idea and the strategy around how I could make it work personally. And so I'm proud that I stuck with that and I. And I saw it through. You know, I'm proud that I was able to pivot and, you know, realize that, you know, I should be using my network and my experience that I was open to doing that. I think I'm also really proud of the impact that this change that I have made has had on other people around me. So that sort of ripple effect. So, yeah, you know, my kids think differently about things. My daughter has sort of set up her own crochet business. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And. And my stepdaughter likes to get involved, helping me with sort of canva visuals and stuff. So I feel like I've sort of opened a door and made new things possible for. For the younger people in my life, and I'm quite proud of that.

Yeah, I think we often think about how business, you know, about the professional impacts, but there is so much flow on positive in terms of, yeah, our families and the role modeling that we're doing. And, yeah, I think that that just makes me so happy.

And I'm also really proud of, you know, some of the. The work that I've done as well in this space. So, you know, I've got a number of clients who are in different places professionally now, and, you know, I love working with clients And I love being a part of their journey and supporting them to make bold changes as well. And, you know, I'm proud of some of the testimonials and feedback that I've received. You know, that just is, you know, really sort of, you know, feeding that, you know, positive reinforcement loop and, you know, that, you know, when you. When you enjoy something, you know, it gets, you know, it goes well and it's been a pleasure. So. Yeah, I'm proud of that too. Yeah.

And all of those things are the things that sustain us through those down patches. Right. Which is, yeah, I know, doing important work. I know that the value it's bringing to my clients is extraordinary.

Yeah.

Sit with that.

And also, I think, you know, this year I've had some quite big clients that have challenged my, I guess, challenge what I thought was. Was possible. And they've asked for things that, you know, stretched my comfort zone, stretched my level of confidence, and I've been able to sort of, you know, rise to that challenge and deliver. And I'm quite proud of that, too.

Yeah, that's so, so brilliant. So I have to ask a question, obviously, as a member of the accelerator, how has it supported you? Like, what are the. The things that you value most about being in that community and program?

So being a part of the accelerator has, you know, given me this sort of amazing community that is most of us are in different, you know, parts of the world or in different industries, but we have this really common experience and we're all learning from each other. So one of the great things about jumping on the. The weekly coaching calls and experiencing that group coaching environment and hearing other people's challenges and the solutions that are able to be generated within the group. Group. That's really, really valuable. And often I sort of listen to other people's, you know, experiences and challenges, and I'm right, okay. Or I'm not there yet, but I know there are solutions when I get there, so it becomes less scary. Yeah.

So you can see the pathway, and when this pathway is mapped out for you, it's like, oh, well, of course, that's where I'm going.

Yeah, yeah. So that. That learning's great. I love. I love our Slack channel, and I love hearing about everyone's sort of, you know, priorities for the week and their celebrations. So me too, I'm quite good at sort of thinking about what am I doing this week and planning my week out, but, you know, being prompted to, you know, state what my priorities are for the week and know that someone's Going to ask me about them later on in the week. Yeah, that's where that can be really helpful and can actually make sure I do the hard things I've said I'm gonna do. So that's useful. And then the online learning, I think is brilliant. You know, having structure set and curriculum to work through at our own pace has been, you know, really invaluable. I think when, when I first started working with you, Ellie, I needed to get my coach bio done pretty quickly. There was a client that wanted it. So having a template that I could, you know, adapt and get that done, I was able to get that done really quickly. But it looked good and it, you know, it, it told the story. You know, we have refined it a bit since, but I was able to be really reacting, active, respond quickly to that request because I had the support and the templates available. So that's been really useful.

Oh, amazing, amazing. Thank you, thank you for sharing that. And you know, I think just hearing it from someone who's in it is something that I always love to share because, you know, I can talk about it until the cows come home because I think I love what we do. But yeah, it's really valuable to hear your perspective. So thank you very much for that. So to, to wrap up, I'm going to ask a couple of rapid fire questions with absolutely no notice. So if I'm putting you on the spot, feel free to tell me to bugger off. If you could coach anyone in the world, who would you coach?

That's a hard question.

I know everyone says that. I feel like maybe I should give.

Notice on that one. Yeah, I think I needed notice for that one.

Okay, no worries. Hold a book or a podcast. You would recommend to listeners the business.

Of executive coaching, of course.

Well, I'm hoping that they're already listening to that if they're listening to this one. Any other favorites?

Of course, my very favorite book that I love to, I recommend it to everyone and I often recommend it to clients is called the it's the Top five Regrets of the Dying by Bronnie Ware.

I love that book.

Yeah, it's my absolute favorite. So a lot of clients, it was my experience and it's often still my experience. It's often the experience of my sort of, you know, my one on one clients that, you know, they're very high achieving, high performing, but they're over giving potentially, you know, dicing with burnout and giving everything to work. And I just think that's such a beautiful, it's short it's easy to read book of stories collected from people on, you know, on. In their last days of life about, you know, what's really important in our life. And, you know, if we can. If we can learn those lessons before it's our last days of life, then, you know, then we've got a lot to give. Lots a lot to gain from that.

Yeah. Oh, no, I love that. That's such a great recommendation. And then I just want to wrap up with. If you could give new coaches starting a new business a tip or a piece of advice, what would you. What would you tell them?

I would tell them it's a really exciting journey and that they're about to, you know, embark on a. On a big journey of. Of highs and lows and they're going to be challenged and that they should have some support along the way.

Yeah, brilliant. Look, thank you so much, Emma. I really appreciate you coming and talking to us today. And if people want to get in touch with you, where should they go?

They could go to my website or they could come to my happy place and meet me on LinkedIn.

Yay. Excellent. We will link to both of those in the show notes. And, yeah, I encourage everyone to connect with Emma. She is a absolute star on the LinkedIn, so do check her out and go see what she's doing over there. But thanks again, Emma, and I look forward to seeing you on one of our calls again soon.

Thanks so much for having me, Ellie. It's been great.