Executive Coaching, Resilience & Reinvention with Kirsty Grace

Hello and welcome to The Business of Executive Coaching podcast. I'm Ellie Scarf, your host and coach and mentor to other coaches, and I'm so fortunate today to be here with the extraordinary Kirsty Grace. Welcome, Kirsty. Now, thanks, Ellie.

Great to be here.

Yes, I'm gonna do, uh, you know, like a little overview intro, but I'm gonna need you to fill in some of the, the details, so Kirsty is an executive and team coach. She is a facilitator. She is a leadership development expert, and she is an evidence-based coaching nerd just like me. Now Kirsty has, you know, over 20 years experience doing this work in corporate environments, which I think is extraordinary. And she is super smart. She's insightful. She is kind. And so we're so lucky to have her here today. And she also states on her LinkedIn profile that she is an animal lover. And so Kirsty, what flavor of animals? Are you a cat or a dog person? Are you willing to put a line in the sand?

Oh, you know, I'm not. I've got a dog at the moment, but I have had a cat before, so I don't really have favorites. I was gonna say you swing both ways, but that's, uh, that's a bit inappropriate. Maybe not. Yeah.

And birds? Any, you know, Other strange animals?

Yeah, throughout my life I've had budgies, although I would never keep birds again. That was a bit horrendous, birds in a cage. You know, goldfish I've had. Yeah, cats, dogs, horses.

Yes, I love all, all creatures. A true animal lover. Whereas I'm quite specific that I like small, unscary dogs. That's my flavor, like ones that—

oh, well, you wouldn't You wouldn't like my dog. He's a big, scary looking dog, but he's, he's very lovely.

Gentle giant, I'm sure. Yes. And I was looking at your LinkedIn profile and I learned something. So of course I know Kirsty, you know, and have known her for some time now, but I did not know, Kirsty, that you are a triathlete. Yes, that is a bit of a stretch. No disclaimers.

No disclaimers. I have done triathlons. Yes. I think that counts. Yeah.

Yeah, well, do you consider— are you just sort of like quite a sporty person generally?

Yeah, I was always a bit sporty. I always loved performing, racing, competing. So that's kind of where I thrive, you know, when I'm doing sports. You know, I've always competed in swimming growing up, uh, and came across triathlon about 20 years ago. And— but I've had about 5 years out, so I recently went back in, and that was little post that I did actually today. Um, yeah, first foray back into triathlon, so that was fun.

That's actually amazing. I used to run a lot in my late 20s, early 30s, very, um, very slowly, but you know, I could do it for a long time. And I thought, you know, maybe in triathlon there's like something I'll be a natural at, like, you know, one of those three. Turns out no, you don't have to be. So I just did all of it slowly. Um, and I was just terrified the whole time I was riding bikes that I was going to fall off. So in the end, I just went back to running. But it was— it's an incredible sport.

It's an amazing sport, and great fun. It's an amazing— I think the biggest thing is it's, it's a great community. And yes, yes, you have to be fit, but there's lots of different distances. So, you know, there's all— there's something for everyone in triathlon, I think. And yeah, you— yes, it helps to be good at all three, and better if you can be particularly good in at least one. But yeah, you don't have to be No, and it's true.

Same thing as with running. I just loved it because I made friends, really.

Yeah.

And I got to go hang out and feel quite virtuous afterwards and go have a beer.

That's pretty much how my triathlon career went.

So yes, thank you. It's so good to have you here. I was wondering if you could start by sharing your corporate to coach story with us.

Yes, yes. And you said 20 years, over 20 years in this business. Yes, I can't believe it, that it was my journey started, yeah, almost 20 years ago into coaching. And at the beginning of the GFC, I was actually working in sales roles in, and I was in a mortgage fund manager at that time. So the worst place you could be at the beginning of the GFC. Oh my gosh, yeah. Clearly my role was made redundant fairly quickly. And, you know, I spent a bit of time trying to get back into financial services. Then I had, you know, like very emotional, difficult relationship breakdown, home situation shifting, financial issues, you know, every drama that you could imagine happening at once. And it was the best thing that ever happened to me because when I came out, I did actually have a bit of a breakdown. I was like 2 weeks in bed in this dark cloud. And then, but when I kind of woke up, I literally woke up I realized that I really wanted to be helping people improve their lives in whatever shape or form. I had a real interest in psychology, did psychology at university in my bachelor degree. Anyway, I came across the Master's in Psychology of Coaching at Sydney Uni and thought, that's perfect, I don't have to do another, you know, 4 years or whatever at uni to get my clinical psychology registration. I can go back, do— I did 2 years, uh, the master's over 2 years. And in that process, an amazing, amazing course, an amazing process, particularly with the turmoil that I'd been experiencing in my life. It was per— you know, a personal growth journey as well as a learning journey, knowledge learning journey. I met HR directors, I met organizational development professionals, and And I decided that was where I wanted to take my career. And so I started in OD and loved it. My most recent roles being Head of Talent, Performance and Culture at Accolade Wines. It's now Vinicky. And then more recently, I did a short stint, got a bit distracted with the business. Did a short contract as Head of Learning and Organisational Development at RSL Life Care, which is aged care. But I really loved, loved those roles. And I always had in the back of my mind that I would go into my own business and build my own coaching, coaching business. But I was really enjoying OD. I was enjoying the corporate world, but, you know, stage of life, time of, you know, age that I'm at, I decided it was time. And like I said, it has been a little bit stop-start, but I think In earnest, I've really been focusing on the business in kind of the last 9, 9 to 18 months. So it's been a long journey, but we're finally here.

And it's so interesting that, you know, if we were to talk about your experience as 9 to 18 months, it wouldn't even capture the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what you bring to your clients. Um, yeah. So I think that's a really important point for everyone is let's think about not just this part when you've been on your own, but actually this wealth of experience and and training and development that you've done all over these years. And, you know, I know for you, yeah, that's what you bring to your clients is this huge amount. Now, it's so interesting, this story that you've shared, which I hear quite frequently from people who go into coaching, which is that there is this, this point of breakdown before we wake up and we discover that point of our purpose. And, you know, I do hear it. And do you think it's that we have this experience of having to shed something to discover something about who we are? Or why is that a— yeah, a story that seems to resonate?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I'm glad you hear it a lot because I thought it was me kind of being a bit daft at not getting the messages that were kind of being sent to me. I really needed to be slapped across the face with it, you know, in every direction possible.

Well, maybe, but maybe lots of people, lots of us do, right? Maybe that's It's something— maybe it's just such a big decision and almost countercultural when we come from organizational backgrounds to say, you know, actually it's okay for me to put away this security and say no to this pretty good life in pursuit of something that is even better. Like, maybe that's really hard for us to, you know, especially if we're people pleasers, which we may have a tendency to be in this coaching helping-oriented professions.

Yeah. And I think as well, you know, a big thing that I've kind of, you know, because I've been working on it myself personally, it's, it's something that I like to focus on in my coaching, is we, you know, we're very connected digitally, but we're actually quite disconnected. And I think, you know, throughout my early career, I was, you know, just you know, on this blind path of, you know, achieving some sort of status or financial goal or, you know, whatever it was, and being really just had the blinkers on what really matters. And I think until we get shaken, shaken a little bit, we can quite easily stay disconnected to what's really true to ourselves.

That's so true. And like, I'm just putting, just, you know, really nerding out in the background here thinking about that developmental lens, right? Which is that these developmental leaps that we take often require some sort of rupture in the way that we've seen ourselves or the way we've believed about the world. And unfortunately, a lot of times that's painful, which is, you know, yes, we can put in place developmental steps to help us get there in a, you know, more positive way. But just, it just does seem to happen that way.

Yeah, it does. But, and you know, the, they're the best, best moments. You are. Now I look back at that and I think, thank God I had that experience because otherwise I'd probably still be, you know, Yeah, grinding myself to the bone in financial services. Um, so yeah. Yeah.

Oh, well, and you know, I just, I hope that is, you know, as inspiring for people listening as it is for me to hear, because I think, you know, and I've seen it in a number of times, but I think the way you articulate it is really compelling. So, so you've, you know, been through this heroine's journey. It feels like, I feel like, you know, like I feel this excitement in it. Tell me about what you do now with your clients. Yeah, so I mean, that's a big question other than triathlons.

Yes, it is a big question. Yeah, in a nutshell, I, uh, support leaders and teams mainly. I look at people who are struggling with things like burnout, change, and those challenging team dynamics that we all come across as leaders. It might be the team as a whole is not performing in some way, or it might be just one individual that is you just not sort of clicking with. So I think the thing that I really love doing, again, coming back to connection, is building those connections in teams, building connections with the individuals that we're working with in order to develop a cohesive, high-performing team environment.

And how do people know that that's what they— how do your clients know that that's what they need? Like, do they come to you and they say, Kirsty, we need a team intervention? Or like, what are they talking to you about?

Yeah, look, I guess they probably don't know that they need coaching or that they need leadership development. Uh, team coaching is a really interesting one, and all group coaching. Because that's quite new to the market as well. So people are more talking to me about the challenges that they're having, and that will evolve into a conversation around the things that I do, or potentially it might be what other coaches that I, um, that I know do. But I do, you know, the number of times that I hear people talk about burnout and change in particular, particularly now, it's pretty much every single conversation I have, you know, whether it be a head of HR, you know, CPO, or, you know, a sales manager, the level of change driven by external factors as well as internal factors. And then that change is really driving a feeling of overload, and people may not necessarily say burnout, but they might say things like, what, you know, excessive workload and not being able to keep up with things and unrealistic expectations and all those sorts of things that then, you know, as you and I know, can lead to things like burnout. Absolutely.

And are you finding that organizations are like open to solutions to burnout because of the burnout, or is it more because of the consequences of the burnout?

Yeah, yes, yes, it's more— you're right, it's more— I mean, I think it's— we've heard so much about resilience over the last sort of recent years and well-being, so I think there's an element of, and parts of businesses that do have a lot more of caring factor for their people. So that's really nice, I think, to see. I think it was a big shift from my, my life in financial services, where it was very much just do your job, get in, get in, do your job and keep doing it.

Yeah, I was going to say, and so I think not go home, stay there and keep doing that.

No, exactly. Yeah, yeah, sleep under the desk if you have to. So I think there is much more, you know, a human-centric factor to what employees are expecting. Yes. And therefore organizations are realizing they actually have to make that shift. But at the same time, there's still a desire for an organization to perform commercially, obviously. Yeah. And so we know that, you know, businesses know that burnout is not sustainable. And so how, how do we ensure that people can continue to perform at a level and deliver the commercial outcomes that we're after, you know, over extended periods of time?

Yeah, and it's a really interesting place for, you know, for example, your clients who are the, the representatives of the L&D, OD, HR teams bringing you in, because they really sit across this divide in that they're often very people-centric, they want to look after their people, but they have to be able to articulate a business case. They have to be able to show the payoff. Does it help that you've been in their shoes?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I think that's where I start the conversation always is, you know, my experience in the corporate world. So, you know, you mentioned earlier, you know, how valuable that, that 20 years of experience is. 20 years and more. I have been in the workforce a little longer than 20 years. Um, we were just 20, 20 plus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, uh, lost my track of—

yeah, we're talking about how your experience in that role and that corporate background. Yes, yeah, yeah.

So, and look, I would say that resonates for the HR teams Does it resonate so much for, you know, if I'm talking to a sales manager, maybe not so, so much because they have, have the, the message of get the, hit the numbers a lot harder than what the, the chief people officer might. Yeah.

Language is different. When you think about your coachees though, or the teams you've worked with, and that is usually the functional teams, right? The sales teams, the operational teams. How would they describe working with you?

Yeah, a lot of the feedback I get is around being insightful and thoughtful, being really clear and concise, you know, particularly if I'm thinking about some of my facilitation of leadership programs. I've had some really interesting comments as people leave the room. Very recently, someone mentioned to me, wow, this was amazing. Normally I fall asleep in these things. And I didn't have that, that sense at all. So, you know, really, I think engaging and relevant to what they, they're experiencing day to day.

And so does that reflect, you know, your intentions when you go into, you know, facilitation, coaching, like, of how you want to show up? Your, I guess, your intent?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. My intention is to bring something that they can relate to. And yeah, with facilitation, obviously that's challenging because you've got— could have a room full of 20 people. Um, so you've got to think about what, what does each person in the room, room need. But that, that is absolutely my intention, to try and speak to every individual in the room.

Yeah, amazing. And you know, I think that is so valuable, and it's not as easy as people think. Right. Because that can be hard, particularly when you're bringing together a group of people who are coming from quite different perspectives, not just functional backgrounds, but very different perspectives on the same problems. Having everyone leave saying, yeah, she really saw it from my point of view and gave me what I needed is like, that's the art in the art and science of this work, isn't it?

Yeah.

So yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. It's one of the things that I guess I, you know, I love the most and yeah, yes, it's exhausting. Sometimes, you know, particularly if you do like full days of that, it can be quite draining, but it's also really uplifting when you get the results that you're after. Um, and people, you see people making a shift in the way they lead their teams.

And is that sort of your, how you know you've made a difference?

I mean, longer term, yes, that's the ultimate goal. So if you're doing one-on-one coaching, I'd definitely like to see at the end of a 6-month engagement that there is some change of behavior. Potentially less likely that you're going to see that if you're doing a one-off facilitation piece. I always try to push the idea of an extended leadership program combined with coaching. So there is a little bit more opportunity for that not only behavior change but lasting behavior change. But yeah, I, I think ultimately, if I think about most of my clients, you know, they're trying to make a difference with how they lead their teams. So if they're trying out new ways of working with their teams, then that's a win.

Absolutely. Because it, you know, you don't try out new ways of working if you don't think there's anything to shift. And a lot of the, the goal is in just the in the way you view things even. And that's probably something you, you do achieve in like a facilitated day or, or something like that. It's like a, yeah, a different way of thinking. I love that. So in terms of how you work with clients, what are the services that you offer? I think I've captured most of them, but just to—

yeah, I think it was— yeah, we've largely covered it, I think. So in a nutshell, one-on-one executive coaching, team coaching, group coaching. So the different being groups and not an intact team. Team coaching is an intact team. And leadership development programs.

Brilliant. Okay. And do you have like, is, do you sort of do those evenly or is there like, are you, do you do more coaching, less of the others?

I would say probably, yeah, relatively evenly across the offerings. I think, you know, from a coaching business development perspective, the facilitation is really useful to bring new coaching opportunities. And look, to be honest, I wouldn't want to do most of one or the other. I love doing all elements. Yeah. Yeah. I like the variety. I've always loved variety in my work. I guess that's part of why I've enjoyed building my own business because, well, there's a lot of variety in that. Yeah, um, but yeah, so I like doing the different elements, and which is again why even with leadership programs, I really encourage— not only for the fact that you get lasting change for the client, but from my own perspective, there's more engagement if I'm doing a bit of coaching, a bit of facilitation throughout a year, for example.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm, I've always been the same as like, I really like that mix. I like the, the breadth and what you learn from one of those types of services tends to help you with all the others. And yes, from a business development aspect, but also just in terms of the way you think and the, the knowledge you have about your clients. No, I really, absolutely. I really love that. So tell me about the experience of growing a coaching business. Like, what have you learned? About business, about yourself, whatever, you know?

Oh wow, I love that. Oh, here we go. I have learned to be patient. It's not, uh, one of my traits ordinarily, um, but you know, this need to really— and I think you use the words, you know, don't get distracted by the shiny things, and that was definitely something that I was doing early on, you know, this is not working, okay, well maybe I should do a bit of that, or that's not working, or try this thing over here. So whilst you feel busy all the time, you're not actually achieving anything. So it's, you know, decide on your avenue and stay on that path. So that's been interesting because, yeah, like I say, but your patience is not necessarily something that I would say is a strength um, for me. So it's been something that I definitely have developed it.

Yeah, but I also see like the flip side of that, right? Yes, you know, finding it hard to be patient, we see that as a challenge, but I know that for you it's also coupled with a tremendous capacity to work hard intensely.

Yes, yes, yes. I am very determined, some might say stubborn.

So pros and cons of those, you know, the dark side and the light side of each of these descriptions.

Yeah, yeah, yes. So, uh, yeah, so I guess that, yeah, that's been really beneficial for me in this space to— once I've— and obviously with your help, once I got that clarity on what is the road, the— what is the path that I'm on, then having the, I guess, confidence to stay on that path. And, you know, knowing, you know, I think that was the biggest thing with the Accelerator program is just having a process and following that process, having the things that you need to do every week or every month or whatever it is, and staying on that path, but having some clarity and confidence in those things that, you know, eventually you'll have the outcome.

Yeah, and it is tough. And I know a lot of business coaches are like, yes, you know, 5 clients next week and $1,000, you know, $100,000 months. But it's like the truth, and the painful truth is that it does take time. Um, yeah. And so, you know, I think that's a really important, just something to validate for everyone as well, which is if you're listening in and you feel like it's not happening as quickly as you might want, it's not necessarily that anything is wrong. It's just actually this is the process. Um, so I think that's really important. What have the biggest challenges been for you?

I think, I mean, really I haven't necessarily found it challenging, so to speak. I guess the, I mean, the usual one that people are always going to say is obviously that uncertainty of the financial uncertainty. Yeah. If you can be in a position where you have a buffer and you don't have to rely on a regular income, then that's going to be really beneficial. And that, you know, that was what I ended up doing, was doing some work that was more kind of retainer-based work. And that allows me to, to do everything else. So, you know, I know there's other coaches in your program who are, who have Taken on part-time jobs and I think you need to do, you need to do what you need to do to pay the bills, obviously. And so I guess the challenge in that is if you're not loving that work or I remember one of your accelerator participants, you're talking about taking quite a junior role and I, you know, I wondered about that, you know, if you're taking something that's, you know, well below your capabilities, how you stay motivated to do that work when you really want to be doing this wonderful work over here. So it's maintaining motivation, trying to show up to these other roles that pay the bills in a way, you know, you still want to do a good job, right? You still want to be the best that you can be in every capacity. So maintaining that focus there whilst you still have this other thing that you want to. Yeah, wonderful.

I mean, I think that's a really important thing, and, you know, I think there are different ways of sort of building that baseline of security, um, and I think I love that idea of a retainer model. It may be taking associate contracts, it may be part-time work, but I think for everybody it should be what does your nervous system need to allow you to show up for this thing you're building. Because if you're constantly in a state of fight or flight because, you know, your story is one of financial insecurity or, you know, those things, then, you know, you're going to need to put different things in place. And yes, therapy also. But, but it's okay. And I think, you know, for people to know, like, it's okay if you want to work a couple of days a week just so that you can let your nervous system feel calm. Yeah. And, you know, calmer and, and really come to the party from that more even keel. I think that's a really Yeah, really.

And I, to your point, I think, you know, being prepared for it to take a lot longer than what you anticipate. So yeah, my kind of, because I didn't have a really good clarity early on, you know, really until I joined the accelerator, it was, you know, it in reality I've been doing this business for 3 years, but, you know, took a short-term contract Did a bit of this, a bit of that. So it wasn't really focused and wasn't the right work. So just, I think, yeah, getting that clarity early and, and being prepared to, yeah, to take, allow it to take some time.

And so it's such a tough one because I'm always like, yeah, we've got to allow it to take time. And we also, this is, I love these both ends of the coach. And we need to also be open to the fact that sometimes things can land in our lap as well, right?

Yes.

That we've, you know, like we may not see as being tied to any activity we've done and it can just, can just come. And so we need to like be open to both things being true at once. Have you found that to be true?

Yeah, so true. So true. And I think we are being open to the work coming from place, you know, like you mentioned associate work, you know, that I've been really fortunate in that space. It wasn't something that I had really thought about initially, but you know, being open to a variety of channels for your income. So, and you, I mean, yes, you think, oh, those, those people are the relationships that I have really recent and strong relationships with. I'll definitely be able to get some work through those, those indiv— and no, it's these people who you haven't spoken to for, yeah, no. 10, 20 years when you were barely knew when you worked with them.

And yeah, and they come through. And I hear that from people constantly. And, and it's interesting because they're the people that people are like, oh no, there's no point, right? There's no point reaching out to those people. And I'm like, yes there is.

That's what I was like initially. I'm like, why would I be calling them? And then, yeah, yeah. And I've had a lot of surprising proactive reach-outs to me as well that I thought, wow, I I can't even believe you remember me. Yeah. So yeah, it's surprising, but it's been— what I've really loved is reconnecting with people. Gosh, I wish, and I would say to anyone who's thinking about starting their own business, to focus on your networking early and maintaining those connections.

Yes.

I wish I, you know, I'd always kind of turned up my nose to networking when I was in the corporate world. I don't know why now, but I, yeah, now I kind of view it as a, well, it's just about building connections and meeting people and hearing what people have got going on. I don't really have, you know, an agenda. I mean, yeah, there is a bit of an agenda, but in my mind, I'm just, I'm really interested in reconnecting with these people. And so I would say to anyone thinking about, or not even thinking about starting their own business, Yes, yeah, but be focused on networking. Yeah, it's very handy.

Yeah, and nurture.

And it can be a fun— it can be a fun activity.

Yes, exactly. And you know, like, that is a really nice way to think about it when we might otherwise think about reconnecting with our network as like, oh my God, I'm pushy, I'm salesy, I'm this or that. But if it's actually— I'm just reconnecting with these people from my past because is, you know, that's actually fun, and I like these people, and, you know, who knows what we might have in common now that we didn't then. And yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think that's wonderful. Um, what are you most proud of from what you've built?

Look, I'm proud that I've actually started the business. Well, I always kind of thought that I would, you know, there's always a, you know, the doubt in the back of your mind. So I'm proud that I've created this thing that was, has been a dream for so long. But I'm, but I'm really proud of when participants walk out of a facilitation that I've delivered and they have nothing but, you know, lovely comments to say, and that they've taken, you know, the thing that they, you know, genuinely taking something away. I don't expect I don't expect people to walk away with reams of information, but there's something that they're going to do differently at work. Same with one-on-one coaching, seeing people who have been struggling with their teams or struggling with their manager to becoming, you know, really confident in their roles. You know, I, yeah, that's, I'm sure that all of the coaches you speak to say similar things that, you know, That's, that's what we, we do, what we do, why we do what we do, is to, to make that difference.

Yeah. And I think those moments really just are full circle where, you know, it's like all that work we've done to build a client and to scope something out and to prepare and to deliver and to use all this training we've had in our background. And that's the thing that is like, yeah, we've joined the dots.

Yeah.

And yeah, you can feel really good of that. So I think you've already mentioned this, but I'm challenging myself to ask this question now when I interview. How has the accelerator, my program, helped you along the way? I have to say, like, just like everybody else, I find it uncomfortable to ask.

That's funny, isn't it? Yes, you should ask that question. Yeah, look, it's, it has been really helpful. And actually, I had been put onto you probably 12 months before I actually joined the program. Listen to your podcast. Even that was really helpful. So I encourage people to, you know, listen back to all of the episodes because there's really good content in there. And I found that because I had listened to so many of your episodes and put those things as much as I could into practice, when I started the accelerator, a lot of the foundational work I'd already had in place and I really was able to hit the ground running with you.

I was going to say, I remember you moving really quickly. Quickly, fast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, I'm going to do all of these things now, um, and put all the pieces together. And it did, you know, once I joined the program, there were things that just— it's like, oh, okay, yeah, there was that bit missing, or there's that bit missing. And it just put everything together in a nice neat package that I then, you know, now I feel confident in what I'm doing. Again, I keep talking about, you know, I had the clarity of what my path is. I'm confident in the process that I need to follow. And so I just keep doing, I just keep doing the work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it makes, I think it makes that enjoyable as well because before I kind of knew a little bit of what I needed to be doing, but then I doubt myself and then, and it's like, oh, It feels, it just, that uncertainty and doubt makes it feel uncomfortable the whole time. So now I actually really enjoy the process because I have that level of confidence and clarity in it.

Yeah, I love that. And I want, that's what I want. I want people to enjoy it. Like not just feel like we're slogging through it, but actually like, hey, I get to do this work. I get to build my business. I get to, you know, build it the way I want. And like, that's pretty cool. Like when you think back to what it was like when we were in corporate roles, you know, this is cool. This freedom, this creativity.

Yeah.

And that's, yeah, I love for people to feel that. So any tips for people who are starting an executive leadership coaching business?

I think not beyond what I've said.

You've already shared quite a few. Yeah.

The main things I would say is, yeah, was the networking piece and get onto that early. I mean, in hindsight, that's even beneficial if you're wanting to stay in the corporate world. So yeah, that's a great— any networking is, is not going to be wasted. You never know what will come out of it. And, you know, get financially in a position where you can really take the time, because I think many may try this out, but because it does take time, they I wouldn't say give up, but they have to find some other way of earning an income. And so they have no choice but to either go back to corporate or, you know, find some other means of an income. So I think, you know, be prepared for it to take a long time. And yeah, if you do that, then you can enjoy the process and have the, um, the space to actually make it work.

Yeah, I love that. And yeah, so build yourself time, resource accordingly, and whether that's, you know, savings buffers or some sort of income stream while you're growing. Um, and like, I love the idea of like a gradual pullback of your work hours. So, you know, go to like a 9-day week, a 9-day fortnight, then a 4-day week, and then a 3-day week, you know, depending. But of course, yeah, you know, a lot of people go, yeah, no, that's not going to fly with my employer. So, you know, everyone will need to build different version of that. But yeah, that's such a great tip. Can I start with a few rapid-fire questions?

Yeah, sure.

Finish with a few rapid-fire questions. Sorry. So if you could coach anyone in the world, who would it be?

Oh gosh, you know, I was thinking about, about this and I've always— this is a bit random, but I've always thought about poor Prince Harry. I shouldn't say poor Prince Harry, but I, I, Rich, but he probably needs a psychologist, psychologist more than a coach. But yeah, but I think a coach could be really beneficial for him. He's a— I, I feel like he, uh, is a little bit, um, lost in his ways at the moment, and I would love to help him. He's got, he's got the world's his oyster, really, isn't it? He's our prince, he shouldn't be miserable.

Yeah, and I think he has been in New South Wales just last week.

He has been. Yeah, yeah, I've not been prospecting him.

Oh, you have not? Okay. And yeah, I haven't also had any reach-outs, but I'll let you know if any inquiries, uh, come through. But yep, good, that's good. I mean, I think it does seem like he's fairly self-aware also, so it might be an interesting, uh, yeah, process. Or at least willing to—

willing to— I think willing to do the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, what's a podcast or book that you would recommend to coaches?

Of course, Ellie.

Thank you. It's not a, uh, I didn't plant that question.

I actually have a couple that I'd love to recommend, um, and I'm sure people are aware of Esther Perel. She's, um, phenomenal, um, really wonderful with her questions. So definitely recommend her. And then book-wise, I mean, there's so many books, but, uh, a friend of mine, good friend of mine, um, who I actually met doing the coaching masters at Sydney Uni, recommended a book to me. It's called Awareness by— I've got it here, um, Anthony de Mello. Awareness, it's called.

Yeah, all right.

And it's not a long book, but it's my favorite.

It—

yeah, it's, uh, it's very insightful. Yeah.

Fantastic. Okay. Thank you. And to wrap up, what is an essential tool or piece of software that makes your business life better that you would recommend?

Goodness. Doesn't have to be software.

It could be a tool of some sort.

Oh, well, I mean, AI now is changing the way we work, isn't it? And, you know, ChatGPT definitely has really made my life a lot easier when, you know, when it comes to doing marketing. So that 100% has, has cut the time drastically that it takes to write posts and write articles. So, um, you know, having a kind of a, a thought partner is really helpful. Although I did read an article today, um, research paper on the sycophancy of, of AI and its tendency to want to build us up instead of actually tell us the truth. So yes, yes.

And I've seen there are some quite dark ways that that's playing out, actually. Yes, yes. Um, and maybe it was the same article my daughter was telling me about it, and I was like, yeah, well, and I've seen it. Like, I've moved to Claude now, but, you know, it's built into all of the tools. But ChatGPT particularly, you have to specifically train it Yes, but you have to keep reminding it as well because I don't need the compliments.

Just tell me how it is. And you have to keep reminding it because it likes to fall back into the pattern anyway. It does. But yes, like you say, there's some dark outcomes of that. And I, you know, it does concern me for people who are using AI as their coach. Coach, your quasi-coach, basically. Um, so yeah, some problematic, uh, yeah, concerns there.

Or in some cases, like, the only person— and I do have inverted commas— person they are talking to about things, right? It's— yeah, which is— yes, sad and scary, and hopefully can be an opportunity to connect people with necessary services. And I think actually, I believe Claude now, if you are expressing any sort of, you know, suicidal ideation, will actually halt and say, hey, it sounds like you need some help.

Yes.

Um, yes, which is a good, a good step. But yeah, yeah, pretty, yeah, pretty intense. Um, so we've got, we've got a bit deep there, Kirsty, which is, which is fine. As coaches, we, we can't help ourselves. Um, how can people get in touch with you?

So my website is leadwithgrace.com.au, um, and of course they can find me on LinkedIn. That's the easiest way.

Brilliant. We will link to both of those in the show notes. But just a huge thank you, Kirsty, for your time today sharing all your insights.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's wonderful to have you in our world.

Great to chat. Yeah, and great to be a part of the accelerator.

Brilliant. All right, well, I'll be back next week with another episode, and thanks to Kirsty again.