Jo Saies on Elite Sport, Disability and Performance in the Workplace

Hello and welcome to The Business of Executive Coaching Podcast. I'm Ellie Scarf, your host and mentor and coach to executive and leadership coaches. I am so pleased to be here today with the extraordinary Jo Sayes. Now, there are sides to Jo that you learn over time, and so I want to give you a bit of a, you know, an insight into some of those so that I can quickly get you up to speed with her. So on the coaching front, Jo is of course a highly experienced PCC credentialed coach with a huge amount of experience supporting leaders, organizations across the, the public sector and the private sector. She has a huge amount of professional experience as well, including roles in government regulatory authorities and for-purpose organizations. And Jo shares two things that have shaped her life: a vision impairment and a spirit of adventure that has seen her represent Australia as a disabled downhill E-racer. And yes, she's just as amazing as she sounds. Welcome, Jo. It is a delight to have you here.

Thank you so much. There's that imposter syndrome kicking in straight away.

Do you know what? I've decided it's my, it's my purpose in life to be the hype woman for coaches who have that same experience, because I often introduce people and everyone goes, oh, she's making me sound so good. And I'm like, that's because you are. So welcome.

Thank you. Thank you.

And yeah, and own it. So, Jo, I was hoping you would start for us with just a little bit of, of your story, you know, story personal and your corporate to coach organization to coach story as well.

Yeah, great. Thank you. So I guess since she flagged the vision impairment, I was born with cataracts, which is quite an unusual thing. I had about 12 operations up until I was about 4 years old, removed the lenses of my eyes and have, you you know, left with uncorrected about 15% vision, a little bit higher with wearing glasses, which is not much, but it's a good amount in comparison to, to nothing. And so I guess it's something that has really shaped who I am because it's given me a real sense of needing to find solutions to things, you know, really kind of fend for myself, advocate for myself, and also that spirit of adventure and wanting to sort of, you know, not be on the sidelines, live life to the fullest. So I was very lucky, I guess, to have good family support and a good sort of, you know, schooling and a school in high school certainly that really supported me to sort of thrive and be quite adventurous in particularly in the sort of outdoor area. But, you know, study was always challenging, but again, really lucky, I guess, blessed to have, have a brain and be, you know, academically, you know, probably ahead of my peers. So I knew from a really early age that I needed to capitalize on that, that I would find employment difficult and that I would need to really, you know, work my strengths and in order to have a really rich and fulfilling life. So I went to uni, I did a psych degree, and interestingly, I got a first-class honors degree, came top of my year. And when I finished that degree, I went to apply for the clinical master's in psychology, which was a bit of a turning point for me because I wasn't accepted. You know, in hindsight, a blatant case of discrimination. Oh my God. Yeah, because the criteria was based on academic performance and work experience. And I'd been working for a year as a research assistant, and there was somebody who I had studied with who did get into the course who had a much lower mark than me. But, you know, I talk about it because it really— it steered me in a different direction to clinical psychology. And in hindsight, I don't think I would have really handled clinical psych all that well. But what happened, just because it's very intense and it drains and it can be really, you know, overwhelming, and so it steered me into Yeah, I was lucky then to really— I did a number of casual jobs, but my first really sort of, you know, proper job was with Commonwealth Rehabilitation Service as a rehabilitation counsellor. And I talk about it because it did really— it was kind of coaching in the, you know, late '80s when coaching didn't exist. It wasn't heard of as a thing. Yeah. But it was, you know, people were moving out of institutions and into the community, and but they were being asked to identify individual goals. So rather than everybody going off to Woodwork and doing the program that the institution, you know, had determined, people were being asked, you know, what's your goal? And as a, as a counselor, my job was to sit down with them, think, talk to them about their goal, and then work backwards and go, what are the obstacles to achieving that goal? How can we help you overcome them? And so it was like, oh my God, you know, this was a different side of psychology. This was about helping people to, you know, to achieve their best, to do well in spite of, you know, obstacles or challenges, and not in that sort of clinical vein. So, you know, so 10 years in that field, firstly as a counselor and then as a manager, before I, um, yes, had this sort of leap into competitive ski racing, which is a, another sort of whole story in itself. But moved to Canberra, and when I stopped ski racing, I was still really involved in sport, and I was really lucky to, um, to get a job working with what was then the Australian Sports Drug Agency. So I spent 10 years and had an amazing career at ASDA, you know, working my way up to being education manager, education and communications manager, and then national operations manager, looking after the education, the media, the National Drug Testing Scheme, and the sort of policy and stuff that went with that. Worked at the Sydney 2000 Olympics, had an amazing experience there, was seconded overseas to the Irish Sports Council for, for 6 months and ran their doping program. So really, um, incredible. And I guess it was— that was the world of high performance that I was then missing from my own sporting career. So it really shaped my interest in how to help people perform at their best, and in this case without using performance-enhancing drugs. But in my corporate role, it's more around performing at your best and maintaining a sense of health and well-being. Because there's so much of sport that's unhealthy, surprisingly, and so many athletes that end up in particularly psychologically very, you know, poor places because of that pressure and that burnout. So it was a, you know, a great experience. And in that time, you know, where there's not really anywhere to go from sports drug testing, it's such a niche kind of area. So I was really lucky to have some coaching myself, and I was also lucky just by chance to listen to an interview with Tony Grant, who, as you know, set up the first sports psychology— uh, sorry, coaching psychology degree. Yeah, yeah. I was like, wow, this is interesting, this whole new field of— it wasn't new, it was mid-2000s, but you know, to me it was new. And so I set about kind of investigating whether that could be my next career step. I went to an ICF conference rather than jumping in and doing my training. I went along to this conference to kind of check out if this was my thing, and it was. So I did my training. I had another 3 years of employment. I moved back to Adelaide and was working for the Commonwealth Public Service as a state manager at the same time as kind of setting up the business, doing all the initial stuff of business name and website and part-time coaching before I had the opportunity to sort of go full-time into the business in in 2010. So, um, that's my story.

Oh my gosh, Jo. And, and like the— that period, do you think the period of time in elite sport has shaped you as a coach?

Absolutely, because it's, you know, it's that recognition of, you know, both from my own experience as a ski racer but also working in the field, like what are the levers that you have to influence performance that are not just about your technical skill? And in ski racing, it might be as, you know, microseconds that we're talking about, you know, hundredths or thousandths of a second to give you that sort of performance advantage. And I really, you know, as a ski racer, I was not that technically brilliant. I'd learned a lot of bad habits as a vision-impaired ski racer because no one had properly taught me how to ski. Yeah. But, you know, I had a lot of understanding of sports psychology and learning about managing anxiety and arousal control and, you know, techniques for kind of visualizing success and, and all that stuff. So Um, yeah, that ability to sort of translate that into how do I help my clients be, you know, be the best that they can be in the context that they're in, using all of the available resources, which is where my business name comes from. So PB Performance and Development, the PB is personal best, and it's that sense of we can all strive a little bit harder to be our best. And best doesn't have to be a gold medal or a you know, whatever, but it can be a little bit more than what we did yesterday. And how do I help people to do that?

Yeah, and I love this, this intersection of, you know, not shying away from talking about disability and elite performance in the same sentence. And I think sometimes that's something that, you know, is probably the baggage you were facing when you applied for your Master's of Clinical Psych, and that was the discrimination. And, you know, the fact that you're there with, with your clients working through You know, not just, you know, how to function in an environment, but actually like, how do we, how do we make sure we're using this talent that we've got in these people with a disability that maybe have been overlooked? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so tell us a little bit about your business now.

Okay, so I think at the beginning I sort of did everything, like I guess a lot of coaches, and it's probably only been in the last You know, I've been coaching now for 15 years, and it's only really been in the last sort of 2 or 3 years where I've, I've said to myself, I'm at the point in my career where I really just pretty much want to do coaching. Um, so that's a really sort of a, you know, a freeing kind of, um, decision to make in a way. So really working with organizations who are supporting their leaders and their, their professionals, subject matter experts, to to be able to have the most impact and the most influence. Again, within that context of, you know, shrinking resources and really, you know, rapidly changing goalposts and stakeholder expectations, which is largely what that for-purpose sector is dealing with, you know, really trying to— income is reducing and expenses are increasing. And how do you do more with less? And how do you do that in an environment that's highly regulated, shifting, you know, stakeholder expectations are increasing both from, you know, the regulator as well as, you know, clients and the media and the public, rightly so too. So a particular area, you know, of interest for me is aged care and disability, but also public sector.

Yeah.

And then I'm also really interested in working with professionals and subject matter experts who don't have that traditional line manager sort of influence, if you like. But how do we support those people to, you know, to add more value and to develop skills around influencing and commercial sort of expertise to add value to the organization. So for that reason, I, um, really like working with professional services firms, and in particular law firms, um, accounting firms who have got a high sort of, you know, gaggle of subject matter experts who don't necessarily get access to the same leadership development perhaps people leaders do.

Yeah, and it's so important because they— there will be a point that those people are expected to suddenly step into leadership. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when they're not equipped with that, it's— yeah, often— yeah.

So that transition point is a really key area of interest for me. And you flagged sort of working with leaders with disabilities. It's a really— again, people with disability often don't sort of, you know, step forward or put their hand up either for you know, promotion or for indeed development. So helping organizations to recognize where, you know, they can get more value out of someone with a disability who is in a, you know, potential leadership or on a pathway or even in a leadership but maybe not adding as much value as they could by, you know, some specialist kind of coaching around some of those issues.

Yeah, yeah. And do you tell me about So you've, you're focused more on, on one-on-one coaching, but I'm assuming there's been a bit of a journey for you, which has been more, you know, facilitation, running workshops, consulting. How's that evolved for you?

Yeah, look, as I said at the beginning, it was like, yes, I can do everything. And even now, if you see on my website, I've got a list of training courses that I run that's like about, you know, 30 lines long. It's like, really? I can do all of those things? And I could if someone asked me and I put the effort into developing, but You know, and in the early days I developed a lot of content and, you know, put huge amount of time and effort into developing training courses, which I might run, you know, once, twice, 3 times if I was lucky. Then certainly, you know, team facilitation was a thing that I did.

Yeah.

And I got pretty nervous about that. As much as I love being in a room with people, I didn't have the same control as I would if I was running a training per se. You know, I didn't I couldn't prepare quite as much as I, as I needed to. And then there were, of course, random bits of, you know, someone I knew needed an HR person to come and do a project. Um, I did a couple of projects for South Australian Sport Institute and also Australian Sports Commission that were unrelated to HR or my business at all. But, you know, people knew me because I worked in sport. So yes, there was a lot of I'll do anything and say yes to you know, to whatever comes along. Yeah. But, you know, and it's really been hard to focus in on what's my niche, what's my real area of interest, expertise, passion, because of that fear of, well, if I do that, you know, I'm going to miss out on stuff. And I'm, you know, I'm in my early 60s now. And so it's only really now when I'm starting to think about, well, I'm not going to be working forever. I really, I do want to really just do what I love. Which is one-on-one coaching.

Yeah, I love that. How would your clients and your coachees describe working with you?

I'd like to think that I'm, I'm pretty natural in my coaching style. I really want it to feel like it's a normal conversation where the person is gaining insight by virtue of that conversation. You know, and it can be light-hearted and it can be a little bit playful at times, but we're talking about, you know, things that are deeply kind of important to the person. So it can shift, I guess, according to that, that mood. I, I certainly prefer to work at that transformational kind of level. So really where people are willing, helping to go under the bonnet, if you like, and kind of go, okay, this is the behavior that you might want to change that you're thinking about out, or the goal that you want to achieve, which might be a behavioral or performance-related goal. Let's see what's contributing to that or getting in the way of that happening. And so if I feel like the client is comfortable to go there, then that's where I love working. And I think people find that, you know, where they get the most kind of value and probably the most surprise in terms of, I, I wasn't really expecting this in in coaching.

Yeah, I think it's amazing when you're coaching, and I'm imagining you coaching someone, to find— for them to find this person who is this very safe pair of hands to hold these things they're exploring, but in a very safe way, which— yeah, which is— yeah, the energy I feel, Jo.

Yeah, thank you.

So how do people engage with you? So I'm imagining that you're sort of sitting on a combination of some coaching panels and you have some direct clients, some associate clients. Is that how, how it works?

Yeah, yep. So I'll have some individual clients that will contact me, you know, outside of their organization who are really looking for generally either interview coaching, which I seem to have a bit of a thing for and I enjoy it, and all career, you know, general career development stuff, like I'm stuck in my career and I don't know what's the next step, or I hate my job, or I hate my boss, what do I do? Yeah. Then, you know, there'll be some organizations who will obviously want to talk through coaching of a cohort, um, you know, a team or a group of, you know, people who are facing a particular challenge. So I do then have a couple of really key clients that I work with. One is a large sort of, you know, global coaching panel that I get a lot of work through. Also the Commonwealth Government, their Leadership Academy, and the Australian Public Service Commission. So I get some work through there, and interestingly, that's new graduates. So it's a really kind of great balance to the sort of corporate leadership, sort of, you know, other end of the scale work. These are people very early in their career who are floundering, you know, deer in the headlights kind of stuff. I'm, you know, I'm in this job now and I don't know what to do and what's expected of me and I don't have a career plan. And like, you know, you're, you're 22, you might not have a career plan.

That's okay.

Yeah, that's okay. And, you know, ideally I'd like to work with organizations who are, you know, who see the need beyond just that cohort of people that they want to develop to go, how do we really embed coaching, you know, with as a cultural thing within our organizations? So I've run some programs teaching leaders how to coach, you know, coaching skills, which are different to— not different, they're a subset of the skills that you and I might have in our sort of, you know, day-to-day coaching. Of clients, but how do leaders apply those skills in their context, working with people so that they get that ripple effect of, you know, they're impacting the people in their team who are feeling more empowered, they're doing better work, they're impacting on their clients and the organization benefits as a whole.

Yeah. And the practical impacts, right? Which is when we've empowered our people, then they are more independent. That gives me more time back. You know, there's less, you know, more decision-making empowerment and yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And the cost benefit of that, you know, compared to paying for coaching, you know, for 6 leaders, you know, over a short period of time, you know, I think is really, you know, a beneficial thing for an organization to go, yeah, we can teach our leaders how to do this stuff and it gives us much bigger bang for buck.

Yeah, absolutely. I think I read something, it might have been Kim Cameron's work on positive leadership, was that every hour that a leader invests in coaching pays back, I think it was between 4 and 6 hours of time returned to that leader.

Wow.

Great. Pretty cool stat.

Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, there's some ROI calculation we could do.

Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Okay.

So obviously you've been in business for quite some time now. What have you learned, I guess, about growing businesses, but also about yourself? As you've grown a business?

Yeah, I feel like I've learned a lot really. Of course, you know, that longevity. So I think the learning is around resilience being such a key part of business. You know, yes, there's all the sort of technical skills that you learn about coaching and about, you know, doing business, but it's just such a strong component of resilience, and mine has been pretty strong, but it certainly wavered over the, the years. I think also that sense of relationships and how important they are over the long haul. Again, it's sort of not a short-term game. Um, yeah, I think learning that as a business owner in sole practice, you absolutely need help. You know, as much as I'm a bit of a control freak and want to sort of feel like I can do everything on my own, recognizing one, that I need help, and two, what that help is and when I need it and how to get it is important. And the other thing that I've sort of really learned is about risk tolerance, because I look at myself and I think I'm smart, I'm hardworking, I'm, you know, good at what I do, and I'm probably not as successful as, you know, Richard Branson or, you know, Bill Gates or, you know, whatever, who have that sort of entrepreneurial spirit, which I think really comes from one having good ideas but also managing that risk kind of aversion. And so for me, business is a game around how much risk can, can you tolerate. For me, both sort of financially, you know, I come from a family that basically you spent the money when you earned it, you know. So it was like, you know, for me to invest in aspects of the business before money had come in was kind of You know, any possibilities. So really looking back, I think, you know, it is what it is. I can't do anything about that, but understanding your own sort of tolerance for risk and how that, you know, that relates to your business and the decisions that you make is really important.

That's such a good reflection. And I often talk about the fact that we actually have to do what we have to do to make our nervous system okay, right? We have to, we have to do that. And for some people that is, you know, having a part-time job while they're in growth or, you know, something that represents, you know, maybe it's a consulting contract even though they don't want to do that, just to even out the peaks and troughs along the way. And I think that that's a different slant on what you're saying, which is, yeah, we have to recognize that we have this innate risk tolerance that is a result of all of our story, right? The family we grew up in and the experiences we had and how early risks that we took played out. And we have to know it, one, to, to know what our nervous system needs, but also to know what is the right amount of stretch for us. Because if we were to say, oh yeah, go and, you know, go and drop $100K on, you know, this thing, I don't know if it's going to pay off, but if it does, it'll pay off big.

Like, that's not going to happen.

But maybe it's okay to say, oh, well, I'm going to try this experiment. And, you know, there's going to be a small exposure of time or, or money. But yeah, yeah. And, and, um, what have you learned about yourself?

I think I've learned that I can do more than what I think is possible. I think I've learned to be very resourceful. And again, you know, when I say that, I'm sort of thinking, ah, I think this is an extension of the traits that I really developed very early on because of that disability. Yeah. So as I'm kind of saying it out loud, I'm actually just reflecting about that and going, yeah, using my strengths, being resourceful, finding, you know, getting help when I need it, finding solutions to problems were all things that I developed really early on. You know, I can remember examples of things that happen in primary school that would indicate to me, oh yeah, I was using that strength then, or I was, you know, I had already learned that I needed to solve my own problems. Yeah. Or that I needed help. And so I think being in business is just sort of magnifies that to the, to the nth degree. I, you know, the other thing that I really learned, and, and I'm still learning it, and I'm still mystified by it in a way, is how hard it is to sell a product that's not really well understood, both in terms of what it is and how helpful it can be. So, you know, I went to a lot of business marketing sales training stuff in the early stages of my career, you know, local business network things that taught you how to do business plans and what a website would be, whatever. And no one could help me translate that into coaching because coaching is a thing that's not, well, you know, people have so many different views of what coaching is, and not that many people can just instantly go, oh yeah, I know that a coach will be helpful in this way, as we would if we were selling plumbing or, you know, a haircut or a, you know, doctor's appointment or whatever. So it is, I just think, you know, I could have done better at sales and marketing if I had a different product. But I haven't got a different product. I've got coaching. I love coaching. And how do I learn how to, you know, how to market and sell that in a way that, that is accessible?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that is so right that it's not like something people can touch and feel and, you know, understand. Are you finding that people are like, there's a growing sophistication about your clients understanding what it is? Is that shifting?

Look, I'd like to think it is, and I'd also like to think that I'm probably getting a bit more, you know, kind of savvy about it. Yeah. But, you know, I'm still, I guess I'm still surprised and disappointed, you know, that sort of from my, that first time I listened to, you know, Anthony Grant's kind of talk about coaching and I went, wow, that sounds amazing. Like I've got it straight away. Yeah. And, you know, I practically read, I was on, you know, in the old days used to listen to the Qantas Soundtrack, and they'd have interviews with leaders. That was where I got all my leadership sort of insight from in my early career. And I just probably ran off the plane to kind of go, where can I sign up for this thing? It sounds amazing. Um, but sorry, to answer your question, yes, I look, I think there is a growing understanding, but there's still, you know, as I'm sure you and, and the listeners would know, an awful lot of people out there doing coaching that's not coaching. So it's murky. Is that a word?

Muddies the water.

It makes muddy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's hard.

And there's a few stages, isn't there? There's like, firstly, there's the understanding of what is it. And then there's the next understanding, which is understanding the benefit of it and understanding how it's going to help you to solve your problems.

Yeah.

As an organization particularly.

Yeah.

Right. And not, oh, it's a nice to have, but actually it's, you know, it's a necessity or it's a. A business imperative that pays off. And yeah, I think most, most coaches have had that issue, which is it's not easy. Yeah, it's easy to sell. And I mean, I always— you always hear me talk about, you know, it's easier to sell a painkiller than a vitamin. And yeah, coaching really fits very nicely into that vitamin category. Yeah. So a lot of the work we have to do is figuring out, well, what is the pain that this solves and how do I make sure I can find it in that light as well?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, adding to that then, the other things that I've learned about myself myself. I really— and it's again really only probably recently that I've been sort of ramping up the sales and marketing stuff, but recognizing this self-doubt piece is really, really profound and really, really limiting. Like, I think I've got it much worse than most people, if that's— I mean, I'm, you know, that's silly. Of course everybody's, you know, relative. But the more I come to, you know, connecting with the stuff that I know I need to do to, you know, to have a good thriving business, the more I can see how there is so much going on internally that stops me. And I don't know where that's come from or why that's there. You know, it's obviously very kind of complex, but it's certainly been a thing to grapple with. And, you know, along with that, most of my business career up until the last couple of years, I've been alone. And worked alone. And so that sense of, I've got to solve all of these problems, you know, without any sort of day-to-day kind of just bouncing ideas off, getting moral support, you know, having someone make a cup of tea if I've had a, you know, a bad experience or whatever, is— it's pretty tough. And I'm good at sort of resourcing other, you know, supports around me. You know, I've got good friends. I've, you know, really connected in with the ICF coaching network, with the human resources network, company directors network. So I've got lots of good people around me, but it's still a different thing to be on your own all day, every day, and all night, every night, sort of doing this thing.

Yeah, absolutely. And I just know that there are so many coaches out there in that same position. And I have this theory that it's, it's something about this quality of both our ability to introspect like that as coaches, Jo, because I think most people probably can't notice these things in themselves, but the ability that you have to do that, and I know a lot of coaches do, and it's a very human experience, and I suspect it makes you and us even better at what we do because of that. Like, do you feel like it's that—

oh yeah, yeah, really felt experience. Yeah, I mean, I haven't had the experience of everything in life. There's certainly a, you know, pretty rich tapestry of things. Oh yes. Do. But I've experienced a lot of things that, you know, have absolutely shaped who I am and helped me to sort of feel empathy, compassion, you know, if not, you know, deep understanding, certainly a sense of being able to connect in with some of that experience and to feel a really good degree of comfort of being able to explore that experience with that person, which I may not have felt in that more clinical psychology setting. So, you know, taking us back to that first comment that I made, I think, you know, I think that would have been tough for me to go to some of those places where, you know, that are really sort of sitting underneath deeper clinical, you know, therapeutic sort of contexts.

Yeah. I mean, so I was going to ask you, you know, what the biggest challenges you found in growing your business. And I think we've sort of probably touched on, you know, a number of them. So obviously sales and marketing is one piece of it. And, you know, have you found it to be challenging? It sounds like you've— I was going to say not to be in community in the way we are when we're in organizations, but it sounds like you've done a really good job of building community. Like, how's that? What's that? Yeah, for you, or how have you gone about doing that?

Yeah, I think connection in with the professional associations has been really important to me. And again, it's over that long period of time, you know, so, and getting involved in things by volunteering and contributing to you know, to different things, I think, as well as just sort of, you know, being a member. Um, so I've had a lot of sort of roles within the International Coach Federation, the South Australian branch, also the Canberra branch when I was there, and I was president for a couple of years.

I didn't know that, so I would have put that in your intro, Jo.

Yeah, so I think that, you know, willingness to sort of give back as well as, you know, to sort of be a participant, always striving for that sort of additional sort of professional credibility, you know, through credentialing in each of those organizations, but also through non-work-related, you know, volunteering and community kind of based activities. And yeah, I guess again, because of being largely on my own for a lot of my life, really, you know, had to find those opportunities to connect with people and connect at that really, you know, at that deep sort of values level. I was a member of the Lions Club for 3 or 4 years and again sort of president for a couple of years. And, you know, one of my closest friends has come from that, you know, that involvement in that group. Now I'm no longer involved, and there was a lot of stuff about, you know, Lions that was not my thing in the end. But, you know, I made a really, really, really strong close friend, ally, you know, confidant through that. So yeah, I think just being involved in stuff is really, really important to give that sort of connection with people and also that sort of experience of different aspects of life that you won't get by sitting at your desk doing coaching, you know, or writing proposals all day.

Yeah, absolutely. Oh God, could you imagine writing proposals all day? That's rough. Um, what are you most proud of when you think about, you know, about what you've built in your business?

Yeah, look, you know, I feel proud of every single coaching engagement, really, because I think about that journey that that person's been on. And even if they've made a small shift, that's still a shift for them. And, you know, I'm not proud in the sense that I take, you know, responsibility for that, but just proud of that person. But for me personally, I'm probably proud of just the longevity and the resilience of sticking with it, you know, 15 years. And I'm proud of, I guess, that credibility and that reputation that I have. And again, it's not a reputation that means, oh, people are banging down my door to, you know, to offer me work. It's not that at all, although I'd like to get to that point. But it's just a reputation that I feel like I know there's enough people out out there. And, you know, I'm in South Australia, so it's a, you know, a reasonably sort of smallish, parochial kind of community. But I feel there's enough people out there that, you know, may have heard of my name and associate that positively, you know, with a sort of high degree of ethics, you know, high degree of professionalism, someone that's good to work with, easy to work with. And that's super important to me in terms of the business.

Absolutely. And You know, I just know for new coaches listening in that, you know, hearing stories like yours of a business that you started and have, you know, run for 15 years successfully, and yes, ups and downs, no doubt, but that's really inspiring. And so, yeah, I'd want everyone to hear that, that, you know, this is something that is a possibility. And, and there is, I think you spoke also to this idea of you have to have a bit of resilience about it as well, because there will be the ups and there will be the downs.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's, that's part of it. Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about how you have worked? So we were obviously, you're a member of my program in the accelerator. How has that been for you, Jo? Like what have you found most helpful about it?

Oh, thanks. Look, lots really. And it's just, you know, as I said, I really longed in the early stages for very specific business support. That was, that was very relevant to coaching. And I didn't, I couldn't find that anywhere. I found lots of great business people who didn't know coaching and lots of great coaches who didn't really know how to do business. And so they were good at coaching me, but I wanted more than coaching. I wanted actual advice, but I didn't want, you know, advice that was relevant to a plumber. So to me, finding this kind of beautiful connection between someone who can support you to grow your business with a very, very coaching-specific kind of lens has been amazing. I think just some really basic stuff that have, has really resonated with me, like just now thinking of my client as the organization has really shifted, you know, how I relate to the sort of strategies and the, the sales and marketing that I'm doing, articulating the pain, you know, for the organization, not so much for the individual leader. And just, I guess, that community to really be able to ask really silly kind of questions. You know, a lot of what we do day to day is sort of like, oh, should I actually say this to this person, or would it be better to say this? Again, you're not going to get that from a pure coach because they're going to say, well, you know what, what do you think you should do? And you need to coach through it. But to just have the benefit of someone saying, well, look, I think really from my experience, this would be good. This is what's worked. And yeah, it's a great community and I've really loved it.

Yeah. And I know that, you know, your inputs are hugely valued as well. And I think that's the joy of the community is that there's that real, you know, everyone's asking questions, everyone's answering questions. And it feels like, yeah, we're all in it together, which I love.

Um, yeah.

So if you were to give some advice to a new coach starting a business, what advice would you give them?

Hang in there. Um, so no, I have got 4 things that I, that I've written. The first one is say yes to everything at the beginning, not for your whole career, but at the beginning, say yes to everything to build. And I've got 4 C's: build confidence, build credibility, build connections, and build clarity on what it is that you really, really want to do. And I think, you know, we do lots of talking around finding your niche and really settling in on what your core programs are, but until you've sort of dabbled in the sandpit, it's kind of hard to know what you really want to do. So I guess I'd say yes, say yes to everything, but not forever. There's a point where you kind of go, okay, now here's what I'm going to focus on. And, you know, every single person's journey is individual, so that point will be different. Yeah, for everybody.

Yeah, I love that. And I love that idea of like, we'll do some work on thinking about, you know, who your ideal clients are and the work you want to do, but we hold it really lightly because is invariably 12 months down the track it's going to look different because things will have emerged and yeah, it will be even better than you imagined it could be.

Yeah, you change, the environment changes, the, you know, stuff around you changes.

Yep.

My second one is really about just holding your, your allies, your advocates, your referrers really, really close. You know, I was not— I've heard people talk about, I was so lucky to have somebody that, you know, gave me a whole bunch of work when I first started and that set me off on You know, I didn't have this mythical magic fairy that landed work in my lap. I've had to sort of really, you know, struggle for it along the way. But the people that have either helped by referring or offering, you know, some advice or being willing to read something that I've written or mentioning me to somebody, you know, it's really like, really just hang on to those people tightly.

I love that. Yeah, that's gold dust, isn't it?

Yeah, the third one is around routine, really, especially again in the early days. Establish a routine as if you were at work, you know, like, and I, you know, like most of us probably work from home, so it's a matter of, you know, going from my bedroom to my, my study. But I had a very specific study and a really set routine. In my first couple of years, I worked 9 till 9 AM till 7 PM every single day for you know, and that was my routine to get all of the stuff done to set up the business to, you know, to have the good systems and processes. Now that was probably extreme in that amount of work, but, um, and I did have a little bit of a burnout, you know, kind of phase about 3 years in. But yeah, just having that routine.

I'm really, Jo, I've got you. Yep. Elite athlete. That's those vibes.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, so everyone listening in, you do not have to work 9 to 7 at night.

No, that was extreme.

It's a very good point.

Yeah, just have your timing set out like, you know, like you would be at work at 9, you'd sit down at your desk. And of course I had, you know, breaks during the day and I had my coffee break at, you know, maybe at a slightly different time, but I always had a coffee break, lunch, you know, whatever.

I love that because you can feel so rudderless when you step away from an organization. It's like, wow. And yeah, if you're like me, which I know a lot of people are, maybe not you, Jo, because you are very dedicated. But you can fall into a procrastination hole, especially if you've been a bit burnt out. And it can be really hard to do the things you know you need to do, especially if you like external accountability. And so yeah, having a routine, having some commitments, ideally also to somebody else if you need external accountability. But yeah, I love that.

Yeah. And just as an aside, you know, that burnout was a challenging time, but I did— I ended up actually going back into part-time work. And again, that's not for everybody, but I did it because I needed to not have so much focus on the business. So in my 15 years of coaching, I've had 3 periods where I've done part-time roles, and each one of those times my business has done better because I have been a little bit preoccupied with other stuff. So I've, again, I've had to manage the boundaries really carefully so I'm not sort overcommitting myself in both spaces. But the benefit to me was around, okay, so my business isn't the be-all and end-all. It's a bit of my life and I'll focus on it. And of course, in that sense, things, things did well, right?

Um, oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, because you were able to just be a little more relaxed about it.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I was working a bit harder because I had a job to juggle and and a business, but I was much more relaxed.

So that's an interesting energy to bring into marketing. Yes. And business development, right? Which is kind of more expansive, more free. Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. And my last tip was just around getting, and I know you've spoken about this a lot, but getting comfortable with discomfort because a lot of it is uncomfortable. And if we stop doing things because it's uncomfortable, uh, you know, you, you're gonna stall pretty quickly.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I could talk about that forever, but I think that's such a good reminder. And you know, it's one thing for me to talk about it, but, but hearing it repeated, you know, from you, I think is really important, Jo. So thank you very much for that. They are excellent tips. So if it's okay, I'd love to wrap up with a few, with a rapid-fire round where I'm going to ask a few quick questions. Sure. And yeah, they're not too hard. Okay, first question: if you could coach anyone in the world, who would it be?

Well, I initially thought of Donald Trump because I feel like he's somebody who is so desperately in need of coaching that surely— but then I thought he's uncoachable, so we put him aside. And I thought about, um, Kurt Fearnley, who's a wheelchair athlete, you know, very credentialed. Yeah, also a bit of an adventurer like I am, called the Kokoda Track. Not that I've done Kokoda, but I've done a few other adventurous things. But he's chair of the NDIA board, so the National Disability Insurance Agency board, and I just feel like this is such an important piece that we need to get right. And I don't know whether Kurt needs coaching or not, and I don't know anything about his performance, but I just think if I could help one person to be an awesome leader, uh, it would be him.

Okay, well, if anyone out there knows Kurt and wants to connect him with an incredible coach. Feel free to contact me, put you in touch.

I love that.

Thank you, that's a great one. Podcast or book recommendation for other coaches listening in out there?

Yeah, book, I think someone else has mentioned Immunity to Change. That's a real, you know, that's a big one. Uh, from a coaching point of view, I really love Marcia Reynolds. Had to look at her name even though I know I really— I've done some coach training with Marcia Reynolds. So Coach the Person, Not the Problem is a a great resource for me in terms of, again, getting under that sort of, you know, under the bonnet of what's going on for people, not just what you see on the surface.

Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you. And final one, uh, an essential tool or could be a piece of software that makes your business life better.

Well, they all have their moments of good and bad.

Yeah.

Right. Overall, I've got to say, you know, I know people have spoken a bit about COVID and the challenges For me, COVID was a big plus for my business. So with— as someone with a vision impairment, I don't drive. And so driving and not driving has always been a really big challenge for me in whatever I've done, but particularly business and self-employment. So COVID and moving everything kind of online— so I'm going to say Zoom or Teams or whatever version, you know, you use— has really changed my capacity to go, yeah, I can do that piece of work, rather than, oh, hang on, it's it's 30 minutes away by cab, that means, but I can't get back to there, I'll have to catch the bus to, you know, whatever. And then I could potentially walk from that appointment to there, but then I'll need my shoes and I can't carry my shoes as well as my, you know, you get the picture. So doing stuff online, coaching online, incredible opportunity for me. And the other one is just using— I use Acuity, but any calendar tool to be able to set appointment, get people to book in appointments, not doing the back and forth. It's like, oh my God, it's such a basic thing.

Um, yeah, yeah, no, I agree. Amazing. Well, look, Jo, thank you so much. I think all those insights have been both relatable and hugely insightful. And so thank you so much. If people want to learn more about you, get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Yeah, so, um, either LinkedIn— there's a click there to book a, you know, a discovery call, or website pbperformance.com.au.

Brilliant. And we'll put all of those in the show notes as well so that people can click through. Thank you, Jo. It's wonderful to have you here. And, uh, yeah, all the best for the coming months.

Thanks, Ellie.

Bye.