Presence, possibility and growth with coach Lisa Saunders

Hello and welcome to the Business of Executive Coaching podcast. I am absolutely delighted to be here with the extraordinary Lisa Saunders. So Lisa is a highly experienced coach, supervisor, team coach, facilitator, lots more who has been coaching, I want to say, Lisa, more than 20 years. Is that right?

Yeah, I don't really like to go above that because it really is. Yeah, about that.

And we won't put a number to a significant corporate HR background before that, so huge depth of experience. Lisa, as you'll hear as we listen, has an infectious energy, a passion for the work that she does and also is a very well rounded human being with a passion for horses, travel, her family and so I'm just delighted to have this conversation. Lisa, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you.

Thank you. It's really good to be here. Thank you for that lovely welcome.

It's absolutely our pleasure to kick off. Would you be happy to share a little bit about your corporate to coach story? What brings you to coaching? How did it unfold for you?

Yeah, I'd like to say it was really deliberate, but my career has been quite organic. Yeah, I started off in corporate hr. I had some time working for the Revlon Group which was amazing. It was in the 80s. So very different how things are now. Spent most of my time hiring, firing and partying hard, if I bet. Yes.

I remember in the early 90s some of my workplaces still had like cigarette places where you could smoke inside the building. And I remember the 80s being lovely for that.

Quite something. Yeah, yeah. And going to my. It really enabled me to stay up all night dancing and then get up the next day and work all through the day as well. So I, I do it with not just my HR skills, but some real resilience around parting. But it's really good. It was like the hard school of Knox in terms of being thrown in the deep end from an HR perspective. And I was studying for my HR qualifications at the same time. So it was a full on first experience for which really thankful. But at the end of it I wanted to get into an HR environment which was slightly different. So I went to work for Cable and Wireless, the global telecom company. And that was amazing. And I had a long time there. I was a business partner running HR teams. I traveled around Europe quite a lot. I had a European patch for a while. I tried a stint in global policy. I looked into global policy for a while and specialized. I realized that I was more a generalist than a specialist in that and I came back to the center. But then I'd had my daughter, my first daughter by then, and it was time for her to go to school. And that coincided with a round of redundancies. So I just leapt out of employed life into freelance life for the flexibility. To be honest, I didn't. Again, I didn't have a real plan. I just thought, I'll go consulting, I'll do HR consulting, something, and I'll see what happens. And then I was really lucky. So a boss that I'd worked with at Cable and Wireless rang me and said, there's an assignment for DIAG looking after their UK resourcing or someone's traveling. It's not for me, but are you interested? And three days later, I was sitting in the Diageo offices in London in HR nirvana. So it's just the incredible team of people, Amazing company doing incredible things. I've heard that part of it. Wonderful. And really, that's what launched my whole coaching and consulting career. So as I was doing that, I was going up to Ashridge Business School at the same time to get my coaching accreditation. I looked after their resourcing for six months, and then I stayed with them for about four years doing coaching assignments and being coach on their leadership programs, their values programs. And all of my work, really, that I've had in the last 21 years goes back to that original assignment through the network of people that I met at the time. It's just all found out from there.

Wow. And so obviously, over the years that you've been coaching, your business has expanded into different types of work and different types of clients. How do you describe. Describe what you do now? Do you have like a. An elevated pitch or a way that you would summarize your work, or is it too complex for that?

A bit of both, yeah. It has evolved a lot. So I did a lot of consulting originally. Then I just. Once I had my development portfolio built up. My husband said to me, why are you still consulting when you love the development so much? It's like one of those aha moments. I went into development, and I've been doing leadership development and coaching for a lot of years, but more recently, I'm focusing more on the coaching, my coaching portfolio. I'm of that age where I'm thinking there's a window of time and I want to really expand what I'm doing and reach many more people, but doing more depthful work, which. So that means that I'm doing lots of onetoone coaching, but not just transactional mentoring level. I'm doing the more Transformational work. So people will come to me who have jobs that just look impossible from the outside. And sometimes actually the individuals doing them know that they're impossible, but they'll do them for a few years because it's important work with those people. They. Some of them just turn up to my sessions. We don't have a fixed agenda. They just come with what's biggest on their minds at the time and we work through that. Other people have specific things that they want help support with development, a development focus they want to support with. A lot of its relation boils down to relational and communication management and getting. Helping people to just rediscover who they are. Helping leaders to rediscover who they are so that they can be more of their authentic selves and make that a vehicle for them really accelerating their performance and having a bigger impact on their organization. So it's getting into some of the conditioned thinking and just generally helping them work through some of the slightly below conscious level stuff that might be getting in their way and also helping them to be bold.

Yeah.

Exciting, ambitious things.

Yeah.

It amazes me still and I have to say that I'm. I fall into this a bit. How many people have imposter syndrome even they're in really very challenging roles and have done incredible things. That's.

Yeah. Amazing. And I'm really thinking about these people in these jobs that are like there's more of them that we think. Right. And these jobs that are like on the face of it, impossible. Like largely, if not impossible, almost inhuman in terms of what you would have to be able to absorb or deliver to achieve on. And so there's a really interesting nexus for the client being the organization. Right. How do we support people when we may recognize that this is almost an unreasonable ask, but we have to ask it anyway. And the supports you can give to those sorts of people are limited if you're not changing the role. So a coach is probably one of the best ways to do that.

I think it is because you can't change the really fast moving world that we're living in and the things that, you know, the challenges that come at people in these senior roles. But you can change people's capacity to do them and how they help their teams. Also we have lots of conversations obviously about how they impact their teams and their teams impact their teams. And so you can change that capacity. Yes. Things that I think is really important is when we're coaching is giving people a really safe space.

Yeah.

To explore how they do that. And I Say to all my clients, you know how we filter our comfort, what we say in our conversations to people every time we have a thought and then we think. Can I say that when you're engaging conversations, please don't do that.

Yeah.

You need to let your thoughts just completely freewheel here so that you can really use your imagination. You can properly explore. The filtering will just slow you down and get in your. You don't. Please don't filter with me.

Do you think your comfort with that sort of. There's a lot of ambiguity in that space. Right. And so as a coach, I'm assuming that comfort to do that really comes from a lot of your experience and your learning and your approaches to coaching. Is that how you say it?

Yeah. I've had some really challenging personal life experiences with lots of kind of life and death things going on. And I think when you've been through that, you see humankind differently and you can't help but feel more compassionate and connected with everybody. We're all human beings. So I think that's really helped me.

Yeah.

And also I've been just pure luck. Malcolm Gladwell writes about one of the elements of success actually is being in the right place in the right time. And I do feel that has worked well for me and I've had the pure luck of working with some extraordinary, numerous extraordinary individuals. So that kind of gives me the confidence of around if I can relate and would to those people and help those people need to be of help, then I can relate to you and I can hold this space and any emotions that come up. I do. I'm really interested in personal growth just full stop. So I'm currently doing, I guess you'd call it, and people would recognize it as like an advanced life coaching accreditation. But it's actually called a transformational soul guiding program with a retreat that I've been into to a few times in Sedona in Arizona. And that has really expanded my understanding of just so many things. But like very kind of alternative methods of helping people. Helping people to explore what has gone on in their lives. Making of what's going on in their lives. And that out of all the. It's like a sweet shot with coaching, isn't it? There's all something you can go and learn.

Yes.

Out of all of the things I could have picked to support my executive coaching business, I actually think that has been one of the best things. Yeah. So it's really the response by my executive clients who want to play with that stuff, try something different. Just Standard stuff has been phenomenal. Yeah. So that's really helped.

Amazing. And like, I really hear that sometimes coaches might think we have to put our own experiences in a very deep, dark box when we go into coaching. Right. Because it can't possibly ever be about us. But in fact, our relationship to our own story is probably one of the greatest predictors of how we can help other people to connect to their own story.

Yeah.

And it, whether it's compassion or it's just deep empathy or. Yeah. Just a, I don't know, a willingness to explore.

I think that's right. I was just considering this this morning actually that the people that I work with, most of them, I couldn't do their jobs. But a CEO, I'm not a finance director, I don't have these. None of those things aren't for me. I've always been the person who makes those people look good and helps those people be better at what they do. But what we do have in common is I've lived a very full out life and that means I've been through a lot of the personal growth thing challenges that I work with, have had to go through and I'm ahead of some of them in that as well. That does help me be, stay relevant with my clients and connect with my clients. And I think also because I've worked across so many different organizations in different countries, different markets, that helps me too, with them. Yeah.

Amazing. And like I really get a sense when we talk of that sort of that deep humility. Right. That sense of we're in this together, there's no sense that I know better or I'm bringing like an academic superiority to things. It's really here we are side by side. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really into honoring their stuff as their stuff and keeping it with them. But I'm there like shining a light on things and helping them make connections and encouraging them, supporting them to explore their world and make their own connections and really be the best version of themselves they can possibly be. And when I've noticed when I create those conditions, it really allows their brilliance to come through. And honestly, I sit listening to them sometimes and completely in awe of what they do and how their minds work and the experiences they have and how they've used their coaching journey to achieve amazing things. I'm, I just at the end of a conversation, I have to have a break afterwards because I'm just like, wow, that was so incredible.

I love that. So one of the things you mentioned in passing is that there is a Passion in your life for horse riding and horses. Can you tell us a little bit about how it has shaped your connection with horses, has shaped who you are as a coach?

Oh, I'll have to make sure that I don't make this answer too long.

I think people are going to be very interested in this.

Okay. Yeah. I've been with horses since I was 4. I've spent more of my life with horses than doing anything else. Horses are these incredible creatures. They are the prey of animals, but they don't have any of their own prey because of that. They're only. They have to be really connected with their herd and their only response to threat is flight. And they have this incredible. When that you're interacting with a horse, you recognize this deep sentience that they have and this ability to relate to people and to. With other horses in this incredible way. The strength of these connections are amazing. And when I'm with my horse, it's like we have a telepathy. We can't obviously communicate verbally, but we have ways of. We work out ways of understanding one another. And it is just such a astounding feeling to feel that I am able to communicate with this creature who can't speak and cannot understand what I'm saying to them. Apart from some basic commands. Yeah. And to get the kind of congruence with what I want them to do. They just agree to it. Even though they're like virtually a ton's worth of animal that could really do whatever the hell they liked. I think it's. But also there is a danger element to competitive horse riding that I do low level horse ride. And so that I guess to sum it up because I appreciate I could go on about this for a long time. So they've really helped me with my relational skills, my lead skills, my resilience. It's tough sometimes working with horses. Being in a performative environment with horses where depending on them not just for their performance, but for your safety, for your survival.

Yeah.

You have to be like super resourceful, able to stay really calm. Very stressful situation. So I actually had a bit of an epiphany a few years ago about I don't think I could do the work that I do without having had that long term relationship with horses. I honestly don't. I'd have. I did. I am an equine facilitated coach as well. I work. I can work with leaders helping to develop their relational skills and their leadership skills alongside horses.

Amazing.

It really accelerates growth.

It occurs to me that it would you would have to really cultivate that quality of presence and attention. That is the similar thing that we harness in coaching but really brought out in stark relief. Right. In. In that context.

That's a brilliant insight. There are days when I go to see my horse and my head is full of other stuff. Full of what's outside of the yard. And he just has to give me a look as I go into his stable. Don't bring your stuff here today. Present. And if not I. You'll get caught out. Things won't go to your plan. You'll. Something might happen. And more especially when we're riding and I find myself having to just really sw. Turn my. Turn the volume off on. Outside of being fully present. Yeah. So that not only can I have that telepathic relationship, but for my own safety. Yeah. And obviously when I'm in a competitive environment for the sake. So then the performance stuff is really interesting because there is a mo. There are a multitude of elements required to get us to the point where we can perform at events. And that's. And then staying. Getting into that performance zone and staying in it. Going through that journey. That. That has been really helpful with my coaching related to how clients get into their performance zones. All the small things that actually add up. It's this kind of increment. The aggregation of marginal gain stuff. Yeah. All of those things that actually contribute and bring performance on the day. That's really helped as well. I'll stop talking. No.

I'm super interested now. I have never been a horse person. I think I've ridden a horse maybe twice in my life and it was mildly traumatic because I didn't have a quality of attention or anyone teaching me about being present. But I'm fascinated. Such incredible animals. And I think we all have this intuitive sense that there's something to them that is deeper than. Not to say anything harsh about our lovely puppies. But I don't think there's a lot of depth necessarily. And my dog would be a dreadful therapy dog. As soon as you're upset, he's out of there or else he's demanding attention. But yeah, I think that's really amazing. I think you'll find that there's a lot of coaches who are really interested in those things.

So.

So if anyone wants to ask Lisa questions, find her on LinkedIn, because if you ask them to me, I will have no idea. But amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Another thing that. That I wanted to pull out from what we've been talking about is I think you Mentioned that quote from Malcolm Gladwell, which was about being in the right place at the right time, being a big part of our success. And I think when we were talking before we started today, you. We also talked about this idea that sometimes, sometimes our work comes from our hard efforts. Right. The new business and things like that. But sometimes it also comes from a very random or seemingly out of nowhere. And I'm just wondering how, how you think about those things. Is that something you've always believed in or seen, or is it something that you've grown to notice as a pattern or embraced as you've grown in your career?

I wish I'd have known it at the beginning of my career, but no, it's something that I have learned along the way and it's something that really keeps me going when I'm feeling like I want or I've got the need more work or different work. It's that kind of reassurance, like that knowing that actually I could just get an email, I could just get a phone call, I could, I could bump into someone. I bumped into someone once at greyhound racing. It was like a corporate thing. Yeah. And ended up with eight months of work from a conversation I had. I had 14 years of work at a global management consultancy from just like a speculative call from a consultancy that I had been working with. They're kind of. I'd been doing one thing for them and they just picked up the phone and said, oh, is there a chance you do this? And I'm like, yeah. And the next thing I was, four days later, I was on a plane to the US and I got 14 years of work, coaching work from that one phone call. Yeah. I think it's about. So long as you've got warm connections and you're having lots of conversations, then those things can just drop into you. And it just.

Yeah, I agree. And. But the interesting thing is that we have more of that luck and more of those random things happen, the more effort we're putting into to the deliberate activity. It's a really interesting. And you might say you create your own luck. Perhaps that's a way of framing it. But I think there is also that magic that sometimes there is this faith that we need to have that things will come up. And I know a lot of people in the accelerator, we always talk about the roller coaster, right. The ups and downs of being in business. But it's always the moments when it feels like the bottom of the roller coaster that very predictably, within a few days something comes that brings you out of it. Whether it's an opportunity or a message or connection. And it's. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. And have you noticed that?

Yeah, definitely. And I talk to my clients about it as well because of course they have challenges that they think working so hard and striving so hard they're gonna happen.

Yeah.

And I think once you put that lens on it then actually you're potentially shutting the door to all sorts of things. I think we can manifest things. I can't remember who said this, but there's something like if it's meant for you, it will come and if it's meant for you, you probably have had it repeating in the, in your life in some way or another. I think that about my coaching. Ever since I was quite young I've had, I've been coaching. Really.

Yeah.

There is something about, yeah, put it, putting it out there, that's what you really want. Doing all the. Taking deliberate action definitely to what you were saying. So all those things that might seem a bit small, they add up. Last week I was going through my client records and making sure that I all the resource checklists were up to date. These are the resources shared with people. These are some of the things that I've done with these people. It seems like a small thing but they all have knock really positive knock on effects. But the other thing as well is we get, I think we get really wedded to this, that as humans we want certainty and we think we're in control. We want certainty and control but actually we don't really have certainty and control in anything. But we can get really wedded to. This is what I want, this is how I'm going to get there. This is what look like. And I think if you can step up and focus on the ultimate kind of vision, the simplest but ultimate vision that you're headed for and then be really open minded about how you're going to get there and it might actually look like yes. Then you get this kind of. You can get this magical flow that happens. Things come up and you think, oh that's interesting. You get curious about it and you realize, oh yeah, that's. That is actually gets me where I wanted to be. I, I wouldn't have thought doing it that way. I wouldn't have thought it would look like that. But that's exact what I want. But if you've closed your mind down to that possibility then you won't make those connections. So yeah, we have conversations like that with my clients. Hasn't Come up exactly as you imagined.

Yeah.

Sometimes it comes up even better than you imagine.

Yes.

Yeah.

Gosh. You couldn't have told me when I started law school and became a lawyer at 21 that I would be doing what I do now, But I couldn't have imagined doing work that I love as much as I do now. I thought I want to make a reasonable amount of money and I want to do work that I enjoy. But I couldn't have imagined that it was possible for it to be what it is. Which is.

Yeah. Which is. Yeah.

Part of that being open to it being even better than we'd ever dreamed. This is very inspiring conversation, Lisa. I'm into it, but I'm going to. I'm going to take us down a little. A slightly different track now. In growing your coaching business, what have the biggest challenges been?

Do you know, it was quite easy initially when I was doing it 20 years ago. It worked. Just came at me really high. I got for my first coaching assignment, which is far. I got a fast tracker to CEO. Incredible. I was a new coach. Yeah, just leave my luck now. And I got the highest coaching rate per hour that I've ever got. Because it was a different time. It was just really different. And it's. The work flowed like that really easily. I think one of the biggest challenges certainly for me has been Covid took my business out of my hands, transformed it into something completely different. As it happens, I'm very happy with where I am right now. But when before COVID started, I was delivered in quite a lot of large scale leadership development in front of hundreds of people, going out a lot, going coaching leaders in the finance industry, how to co training people, how to coach. I had these huge clients. Covid came and because it was all in person stuff and group work switched off. Yeah. Oh, I thought I had a business. Oh, no, I don't anymore. And that was really challenging. Then another thing that happened at the same time is lots of people rethought their lives and what their priorities were and all of a sudden thought, you know what? I don't want to be employed anymore. I'm experienced. Oh, I like the sound of coach. I like the sound of dating, doing training. That's what I'll do. And then at the same time, organizations were thinking, if I'm going to do, we're going to do training online. If we're going to do coaching online, we don't need to be paying what we were paying. It's like on one, on one level. But of course it's not true because we're still providing exactly your surface. But all those three things happened so that it has been really challenging. But I don't know about you, but I think the most challenging things in life can actually end up being the best things that can happen. I don't want to sound cheesy, but they can be real gifts.

I like it. Let's have a Hallmark moment.

Yeah. So what was what?

How did that help you? How does it played out now? Like, how do you see that now as something that was the best thing that could happen.

The gift was if somebody had said to me, you've got these five clients, they're earning you loads of money and you're doing all this fabulous work. In order for you to get the business you really want though, you have to give them all up at once. No way. There's no way I'm do that. So that choice was taken out of my hands. But now I've got a business that really reflects who I am and enables me to have the life that I want. And what that looks like is virtually all of my work is virtual. Know that some people don't particularly like working virtually, but I haven't found it a barrier with the people that I work with and it makes the session's really accessible to them and accessible to me. So it. And it's made me think about the work that I really want to do because I was starting again from scratch. It's like what do I actually want to do? And that's how I have arrived today. It's meant that I've got a bit of a crazy life outside of work. I don't know. Have you ever done an enneagram? Have?

Yes.

Yeah. Okay. So you'll know that I'm a epicurean.

What number is that? Because I think there's a few people who are.

I want to say number nine, but I can't.

Is that the everything? Is that the one that's a bit of everything?

Yeah, a bit of everything. I think that's a nine. That's what that kind of plays out in my career in terms of. I feel like I've worked with so many different people and organizations in different countries, but at home it looks like I'm on my second marriage. I have a blended family. I have grown up kids who are between 25. I have five grown up kids between 25, 32. Yeah. Who actually I spend more time with now than I've probably ever done because they've started to see my coaching as useful. I've got two rescue springer spaniels and I've got one horse and I train somebody else's horse for them. So going virtual has been a blessing. I start very early. I get everything going in my personal life first thing and then I can get to my work early. I do most of my work on an average day. I'm doing most of my work until about 3 o' clock and then the rest of my day I can spend training my dogs who are here right now, training my dogs, training my horses, being with my family, speaking to my family, juggling the renovation of a Victorian house. So all of those things. So yeah, in that way it's been ultimately it's been a real gift. Yeah.

That's amazing. And if you look to flip it, if you look back on your coaching career, like what are you most proud of?

That's really tough because really my achievements aren't my achievements. Their the achievements of my incredible clients. I feel proud when I get a call or I get an email between coaching sessions from somebody who said XYZ that we were working on this is what happened. And I'm so delighted. I'm so pleased about it and all the ripple effects and just the excitement.

Yeah.

I. Yeah. Then I. And they'll say to me, you were. I just want you to know you were no small part in that. And that makes me feel. Warms my heart really. I wouldn't feel proud. It just makes me feel good. Yeah. Yeah.

And we don't take ownership for our clients coaches successes but nonetheless we, we do feel a sense of warmth about the outcomes they have and the success they build for themselves and that the opportunities that they can now live into that perhaps they didn't have visibility of before.

Yeah. Yeah. I do feel proud of myself. You know, I'm a mom and I'm a real nurturer. I am always mindful of not projecting that onto my clients. That's not what a relationship is about. But when they do incredible things like that, I feel that the similar sort of sensations when you've empowered your kids to do something and they go off and they do something incredible, it's a kind of similar. Yes. Feeling. I enjoy that. So. And the only other thing I'd say is not having to go back to employment after 21 years. Yes. I think coaching consulting. I always used to think I will go back to an employed job if I have, but I really hope I don't have to because I love the variety, the richness of the work that I do and who I get to work with. Yeah. And so far, Touchwood, I'm still going to say so far I haven't had to go back into employment. Yeah.

Oh yeah. And I think it is something to be proud of that when we build our businesses, this is something we're building right where it's something that didn't exist in the world before and we're creating it and that's actually really amazing. So, yeah, I think we should be proud of that. If you were talking to a coach starting their business or in those early years, what tips do you have for them? What would you want them to know?

It reminds me of a conversation that I had with my doctor when I first found out I was pregnant and he said, it's going to be a roller coaster. It's not in your control. Get ready for the ride. This is the life. And it's like that, but in. There is so much joy awaiting you in being a coach. We have, we're so privileged that this is our day to day existence. There will be experiences you can't even imagine at the moment that you're going to have. What we've already talked about in terms of don't close off any possibility of work. Don't get too attached to exactly what it looks like. Keep turning up and saying yes, even if you're saying yes and thinking, oh, this is going to be a stretch. Yes, yes, yes. I would say that it's have as many conversations with as many people as you possibly can and those relationships warm and then on like a practical do good work. Obviously. Do good. Yes. Always be improving. I think I'm learning more now than I've ever learned and I feel more consciously incompetent in some ways than I ever have. I think that's important to keep that. Be the easy person to deal with. When you imagine who else your clients have to deal with, be the really easy, straightforward person, reliable person to deal with. And then you know more and more. I think make sure your infrastructure is good, you support you is good. Make sure you've got all the tech that you need. Make sure you've got systems and processes in place for record keeping of your clients, for making sure that you're up to date with any checks. We in the UK we have to do something called a DBS check, which is for some clients, which is like a vetting. Make sure your insurance is up to date, you need to have your admin running really smoothly and be ruthless about how much time you spend on unpaid things.

Yes, because it's an excellent tip, actually.

And we don't have these support teams anymore, so anything that we have to do ourselves is hugely expensive to us. So we need to be. To keep that, to keep those costs down. We need to be very organized and very efficient. Otherwise, honestly, you could spend your life just on your infrastructure and we can't afford that.

No. That is such brilliant advice, Lisa. I really, I hope everyone really listens to that and certainly talk to me if you want to talk about some ways of doing that. Look, your insights are incredible. Can I ask you a few fun questions for us to wrap up at the end that I like to ask. So the first one is if you could coach anyone in the world, who would it be?

I think it's a bit of a toss up. Cinder Arden, probably Satch and Adela. The Microsoft. Yeah. I just love the way they balance empathy and courage and large scale impact. I just. Yeah, it's impressive and I just, I'm really drawn to work with people who can be hugely impactful but really human.

Yes.

Yeah. Amazing.

Oh, they're great answers. Great answers. And I will say Jacinda Ardern is becoming quite popular with this. This question. I've recorded one podcast interview, it hasn't even gone live, so you couldn't possibly know. But she's amazing. And I think what we were saying is that she's just starting to show like a bit more of that behind the scenes, her unfiltered opinions, which are also amazing to. To hear that insight. So love that. Okay, if you could recommend a podcast or a book to coaches listening in, what would you recommend? Or a training program. I know just one that's hard to. I'll allow to.

Okay, I'll start with the book because I've had it for a while and it keeps coming back and that's immunity to change.

Perfect.

Yeah, I love that because we often work with clients, don't we, who appear that they really want to change, but there's something that's holding them and it's really. I just love it. It's really helpful.

And that speaks, I think, to what you've shared about your approach to coaching, which is that we have to go a little bit behind below the surface if we want to. We can't deal with deep problems with surface level solutions. I think that's brilliant. And final question, what is a tool, software or item that you have in your office that makes your business better?

Oh, my life is teams. Idiosyncrasies, teams. Just this week, actually, somebody told me that you can customize if you upgrade your chat GPT you can customize it virtually totally to be your to speak in how you speak with your voice. You can upload your data into it.

Yes.

So which I think is amazing and I'm to from a business development perspective but probably other ways too so that's thing that I'm going to explore so fantastic.

Yes definitely I recommend exploring that particularly for efficiencies and yeah I think that's wonderful. Okay. Lisa, I'm so grateful for you spending this time with us today. It has been an absolute delight and yeah really a good, really really want to say thank you for coming and speaking to us today.

Thank you. It's been a bit weird talking about me.

Always a bit unnatural for coaches, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah definitely feel a bit squirmy but I know I enjoyed it. Thank you very much for inviting. Thank you.