Quiet Leadership in a Loud World with Jenny Toh

Hello and welcome to The Business of Executive Coaching Podcast. I am absolutely delighted to be here today with my friend and client, Jenny To. Jenny is a coach who is based in Singapore, and I'm gonna give you just a high level of her background, and she can give us more details. But Jenny is a, as I mentioned, coach in Singapore, hugely experienced as a coach, comes from a background as a lawyer, just like me, And also Beyond Coaching also supports other coaches as a mentor, coach, and a supervisor. And I would say that Jenny is one of the most thoughtful and considered coaches that I have met. And I think this comes a little bit, uh, down to the fact that she also loves to speak about the importance of very specific and tailored approaches that recognize the value of quiet leadership. In a world that is very much dominated by the extroverted amongst us. So I love that this is something you talk about, Jenny.

Welcome.

It's great to have you here.

Well, thank you, Ellie, for the comprehensive introduction. I'm just thinking, what else do I have to add? Well, being a very ethical coach, as, as you know, most of, actually all your clients are, including yourself, I want to clarify, I'm still a supervisor in training. So I'm in the midst of studying. I hope to get my certification in August, so just want to clarify that. And I'm also a positive psychology practitioner. I got my certificate in applied positive psychology about 2 years ago, so I don't actively teach, uh, positive psychology, but the interventions are quite useful when I, uh, do coaching. But I think that's about it. Yeah, first as a lawyer and then as a coach. And yes, uh, a lot of my clients are the quieter types. They may not at first instance, describe themselves as an introvert. However, when I coach them, it comes up with similar concerns. "Oh, my manager or my CEO wants me to be more visible, to speak more at the exec level, and I don't know how to do that because I'm very technical and I'll just speak my mind and I don't think I belong there." So there's this sense about how do I show up authentically and on my own terms. And that's quite a common theme among some of my more senior clients.

Yeah, and I actually really love that as a conversation we're having now because I think for so long— and I think that there are cultural dynamics at play as well— there was this expectation that there was one mode of leadership that was expected, right, that was successful, and that was to be the loudest voice in the room, to assert our dominance as a leader through, you know, through extreme extroversion, I guess. And so You know, I really love that, that there is support for leaders who don't look like that, and that we're even having the conversation about there maybe being other ways to be successful as a leader. So I, I love it, and I think what you do is amazing. So can I take you back though?

Sure.

Tell us your corporate to coach story, because obviously, you know, we know the once was a lawyer and now is a coach, but I'm imagining there seems to be an increasing, uh, number of lawyers turned coaches.

Uh, you know, I will Go off tangent a bit. I was at a conference yesterday where I had a speaking section in front of a lot of lawyers, and one of the concerns is lawyers leaving the profession. So of course, that whole conference yesterday was to ensure lawyers' well-being and to stay in the profession. But that's not the reason why I pivoted from being a lawyer to a coach. So my story is that I was working in several banks, and in one of the banks, I was a mid-level manager, and this was around 2015. So coaching wasn't so big then. However, this bank was quite forward-looking, so they gave all of us managers a coaching course, kind of like half day, just to listen better, ask empathetic questions, and put yourself— pause, reflection. So I thought those were really good tools, and I tried to put them into practice with my direct reports. However, I found that there was always a barrier because I was the one writing their performance review. So even in coaching, they would say the right things so that, you know, it doesn't look bad in their performance review. So you could say that was when I was bitten by the bug. However, I didn't pivot straight away to become a coach. I took time to think about it. It came to a point where I felt a bit unsatisfied with my current role, it wasn't that it wasn't a good role. I was actually promoted and I was going to take on a larger portfolio, but there was still something missing. And I think this was this element of really impacting people's lives, and that's what I wanted to do. So it wasn't an easy decision, and I didn't, you know, quit the job immediately. What I did was study coaching in 2019, and I did that through a school in Australia, and they had a global program, so I could do it like jump into calls in the morning, do peer coaching and mental coaching at night. My kids were much younger then, so I'm very thankful for my family who was very supportive. I remember my girls saying, "Mum, after you put us to sleep, you're gonna go on a call, right?" Then I said, "Yes." So people are asking me, how did I have that energy? I think it's driven by purpose. I know I'm the type of person that once I set my mind on something, I will put my all in it. So there's also a danger of, like, you know, really putting too much of yourself out there. But I've grown as a person and as a coach. So yeah, 2019, trained as a coach, qualified as a coach in 2020, started my business. This was all before COVID And I was thinking, all right, let's see how I can get in-person clients. Then COVID hit. And now looking back, it's actually a blessing in disguise because I had to learn how to reach out to people online. And my first client came 7 months later. So it wasn't like an immediate success. It was quite a lot of hard work, and I didn't join your program then, so maybe if I did, things would be easier. But yeah, my first client came 7 months later, and right now I am running my business full-time for about 3 years now. So even when I started my business in 2020, there was this period where I was still doing legal consultancy work, and the business was more like a part-time business. But I realized that you know, one foot in each boat was pulling me apart. And I made that decision to run the business full-time in 2023. So as you can see, it's a long way in coming from 2015 when I first experienced coaching myself all the way up to, wow, 2026. Yeah.

And so when you were still in your role after you'd sort of done your coach training, was the organization supportive of you actually, you know, adding coaching into your role?

No, so the bank, although forward-thinking in offering coaching, they didn't see managers as coaches then. So it was more like tools, and I wanted to have a more coaching culture in the organization then. I wasn't at that level of authority to have that influence, and it didn't happen. However, now that I, I'm still in contact with some of my colleagues, ex-colleagues there, the coaching culture has really increased in the bank. So I'm quite thankful for that, but it wasn't my time. It's only started to happen about 2 years ago.

Yeah, wow. Okay, so take us into, to your business now. So how would you describe what you do as a coach?

I'm still passionate about one-to-one coaching, so I coach quite a lot of seasoned leaders, uh, naturally in my network. So it's banking, law, and because I did quite a lot of work with other companies in the beginning of my business, I got in connection with some people in tech as well. So these are the 3 big areas. My clients come from banking, law, and tech. So apart from one-on-one coaching, I do run workshops and speaking engagements. And yeah, so a lot of these things supporting leaders and also organizations to, like you said, how to build a culture that's more inclusive of the quieter leaders. So I don't say that, you know, I discriminate against extroverted leaders. And I have extroverted clients who say, "Oh, Jenny, I love this space because I can just talk and talk and you are listening. But when you ask, it stops me, right, to really think, you know, a level deeper." So I'm not saying that extroverts— I don't coach extroverts. I do. But I guess I have this passion or this heart to coach the quieter leaders because I am an introvert. And back when I was a lawyer, I didn't really understand introversion, and I felt something was wrong with me because I was always feeling drained. I wanted to run away from social engagements even though I liked people. I didn't quite understand what happened. So now, years to today, I realized that it's about making choices on how you manage your energy. And this is something that I coach a lot of leaders on as well. They don't say it in the beginning, but when I ask them to take stock of their day, then they realize that they are working against their energy flow. Rather than with it.

Wow. So I imagine that is a pretty powerful thing to unlock, right, for an individual, but also for an organization. But it may not be something that they can articulate is the, the problem up front. So when people come, when people come to you, like, what are the sorts of problems that they're having? They would say, oh, I need a coach, and you can say, yep, I'm your coach.

Yeah. So yeah, definitely, you know, working with you in your program has helped me articulate that better, but I've also had conversations with head of HRs in their organization, one thing they say is, "Can you help our leaders to have an executive presence?" So I think this term is more commonly used. And of course, they talk about influence, and then that's when I come in. Yes, it's not about influence for the moment. How do you equip your leaders to have sustainable influence while still remaining authentic, right? So it's not to pressure your leaders or your high-performing individuals to be someone they're not. So we use In our discussions with the corporate buyers, we use terms like executive presence, influence, but I add the word sustainable influence there. So I don't go right in and say energy management because they don't understand it. But in the workshop itself, in the sessions itself, that comes up because how do I show up at the start of the day? Am I already feeling very tired? Some of the leaders really are on the verge of burnout. So it's to understand You know, how do you set a right intention to your day? So these go on within the coaching session itself. But when I'm talking about the programs, it's more about executive presence, sustainable influence, communication, stakeholder management. So these are the terms that most people in the corporate world understand. But actually, what goes on behind that is your internal beliefs about yourself and how you self-regulate.

Yes. So if I was someone in HR, I might see the symptom being I've got a leader who, you know, maybe is struggling or is not building the relationship that they need to at the right level internally or with client relationships. And yeah, okay. And so then we know that the work they need to do is much more of that internal work. How do you grapple with organizations who, like, because there's two parts to this, right? There's the individual's piece of this, but there's also the organization, where in the organization maybe we're having the willingness to recognize that not all two leaders need to be the same. How do you engage with organizations on that level?

Well, they normally talk about, oh, we have this leader and we sense that he or she is not showing up at the meetings at that executive level. Yeah, this person is technically strong, but we need some work on this person, right? So I know, you know, really a little alarm bell goes off my head. I was like, okay, this person needs some work. What's going on? So I agree, it is difficult if the organization culture is leaders speak up, speak loud, speak decisively, right? So the quieter leaders I coach, it doesn't mean they're not decisive, but they do introspect a lot. And unless they feel safe in their environment, they hold back. That's why a lot of their peers or even their bosses don't see their true potential. So in the coaching sessions, that's what I, you know, coach them on. But yes, at the initial discussion, it's always about help my leader become, hold that, build that executive presence, help my leader engage senior management better, and maybe help this person work on some communication and influencing skills. So these are the 3 broad buckets that we normally talk about.

Yeah, and it's interesting. I think we also create the cultural shift as coaches, don't we? Which is, yes, we work with the individual, but through things like alignment conversations and the discussions we're having with HR, we're also, you know, building a recognition that maybe we need, you know, more acceptance of different styles and that one way is not better than the other.

And it's important to have the kickoff calls, like, you know, with HR, with the hiring manager or sponsor, and then with the coachee, the client in the meeting, so that he and she can hear the expectations expectations and maybe push back a bit on, yeah, this is not the goal, so that at least everyone starts on the same footing. In my earlier days, I was coaching individuals, much easier. I don't have to get that person's superior in the call. But we're doing more business and corporate engagement, it's important to get everyone started on the same page, alignment of expectations and broad goals. You're not telling the manager or HR exactly what goes on in the coaching session, but broad themes, right? So you can say, okay, build sustainable influence with the aim of an element of communicating more effectively and making decisions more decisively. Yeah, so something like that. So it's very broad themes, there's no ethical infringement there.

Yeah, no, I love that. And you sort of touched on that, you know, you are introverted yourself, and so this is a journey that you have also been on. Have you noticed that plays out in running a business as well?

Oh, yes.

So tell us a little bit about, you know, because I imagine there's lots of people listening in who are like, yes, introverted leaders, you know, I work with them and support them. But maybe we don't necessarily reflect on ourselves. So yeah, what's your insight into that?

It's about understanding what I'm passionate about and why is it important for me to talk about it. So, you know, if this was a more coaching-angled conversation, you can hear how passionate I am talking about coaching and mentoring and supervision, and no one can shut me up there, right? So it's like, is she an introvert? Because I've spoken to a lot of coaches and people who are interested in coaching, I get a common response, Jenny, I can really hear your passion about coaching, how much you believe in it, right? So for me, it's identifying my passions and what resonates with me. And I ask myself, if I don't talk about this, what benefit or what information am I depriving the other person of? So it's easy for me to talk about coaching. The difficult part is— I know you may not like this term— selling myself as a coach.

You know, even selling your services.

Yes, yeah, I know, not selling myself, but in the beginning I was thinking, since I am so passionate about coaching, I see my services as a very integral part of myself. So that was the difficult part, right? Selling myself. I know you say selling services, but I started off thinking selling myself.

And I think most of us do, right? That's how we feel. When we start.

Yeah, so how do I make it easier right now? I mean, because of your great program, I have systems, systems in place to address the negative emotions around it. And then because, like I said, once I set my mind to something, I'm very determined, and the systems help me get that accountability factor in. So, you know, in terms of outreach, I have a daily goal and a weekly goal. To keep to it. So although there are days when the emotions say, oh Jenny, you really don't want to show up on LinkedIn, right? Then I look at my spreadsheet, I'm like, oh, but then today's the, you know, 27th of whatever month, I need to do this because the spreadsheet says that. So the system helps me remove the emotional factor out of it. But when I show up, I'm myself again, right? I'm being authentic, I have genuine conversations, and I don't really Hitch. So it's more like sharing my experiences with other clients, of course, with confidentiality in place. So I talk about broad themes similar to what we're saying now, right? Do you struggle being visible in a noisy organization, in a startup?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I heard a little gem there, and I'm sort of reading between the lines, which is that it's easier to show up in promotion of your services or yourself, we could say, when you can anchor that to the bigger picture. So the purpose of the work that you're doing, is that how you see it?

Yes. Yes. And I've been encouraged in the past few years when I post, I talk to people, and then because, you know, my ideal audience are more introvert, they rarely like, they rarely comment. So I don't know what's going on. But every now and again, I get a message to say that, Jenny, what you wrote sounded like you knew me. You spoke directly to me. And it's happened time and time again, so I'm encouraged by that. So yes, it is— when I think about selling myself, there's a big ick factor. But when I think about, okay, you know, what does an introverted leader need to hear right now, right, in this day of like so many changes, so many uncertainties, what do they really need to hear right now? And I write about it. So I'm focusing more outwards. So it's going against my nature. Introverts tend to introspect a lot. I'm now thinking What do other people need to hear? And that's how I go about posting or, you know, conversing with people. What do they need to hear?

That's a great tip. Yeah, that's a great tip. And we could apply that in lots of different ways. So what, yeah, what does this organization need to hear to be able to make a decision or take a step or find someone? Or what does this individual need to hear? Yeah, I think that's, that's brilliant. So when you do work with clients, how do you work with them? So we sort of talked about a high level, but what are the different, I guess, services that you have?

So typically, I know some people say, let me just try coaching, can I just try one session? So actually, in the, whatever you call it, whether it's a chemistry call, discovery call, or strategy call, they experience a bit of coaching with me, and this is complimentary. So it's not so much— when I first started the business, it was more like me asking questions, they answering, but more like, how do we work together? I don't even do that now. I just ask them If you were to work with a coach, what would be one concern or challenge that you really need support in? And they go and talk about it, and then the little mini coaching session happens there. But my typical engagement would be about 3 to 6 months, then depending on both parties' schedule, how many sessions to put that in.

And do you have other services? Do you run workshops?

So right now I run workshops on resilience. So if it's more like an open public forum, I do some work for our National Library Board here. That's like, I don't know who attends, so it's more like the general community. So I'll talk about resilience. However, it's more customized towards organization. I talk about managing change, managing ambiguity. But I think underlying all that, you still talk about resilience, and I use positive psychology interventions to illustrate what does resilience really mean. So that's one of my, we would say, anchor themes that I talk about. Another one is actually about identity, but I don't start with that. You know, it's like who you are as a leader, what are your strengths, what are your core values. So I did one recently for the library, and it's more about managing career transitions. So people thought that I'm going to offer them strategies, which I do along the session. However, it's more about asking themselves, who do they see themselves as a professional? And if they're going through transition, is recognizing that you're losing your old identity, but the new one hasn't quite formed yet. So this gap of not knowing is where the discomfort is. So I talk— that's how I bring in things like identity, values, and strengths. But as you know, if you were to pitch that out there into organization, it doesn't stand. So I use terms like, oh, are your leaders managing ambiguity? How are they leading change? How do they create certainty in their teams when they themselves are struggling to find direction, right? So do your leaders need support in those areas? And we can have it as a workshop we can have it like a discussion as well. So it's like a safe space for a few leaders to come together and brainstorm ideas.

Yeah, I know, I love that. And tell us a little bit, a little bit about your work as a mentor coach.

Yes, so I am an International Coaching Federation coach, and because ICF, that's the acronym, they require their coaches to renew their credentials, or, you know, for first-time coaches who've just been trained to apply for their credentials. So mentoring is one of the requirements to help the coaches obtain their credential or renew their credential. Then for those who are renewing, it's every 3 years. So mentoring is not so much like the mentoring in the corporate world when your manager mentors you. Here it's more about listening for the coaches' coaching competencies. So what I do is I get them to record a coaching session, I'll listen to the audio recording, and then I'll give written feedback followed by a debrief session. And it's not for to teach like, oh, you went wrong there, oh, you should do this, right? Because each coach is different. What I highlight is what's going well, and this is where, you know, my mentees struggle, and I think I struggle if I'm on the other side. So I get my own mentoring as well. People don't talk about what went well. They will straight away go into, oh, you know, I should have asked that question, oh, why did I say that? So they went into what went wrong or what they could have done differently. So I make it a point to get them to say at least 3 things that went well. And it's more of a discussion. There's a lot of power when you listen to something you've done before and you get insight from that. So in a nutshell, that's mentoring.

Oh, I love that. And so how do people— how do coaches come to you?

Oh, they can find me on LinkedIn, they can find me on the ICF website, and word of mouth. So I've had mentees refer other coaches to me to say that, oh, you should work with Jenny on that. Yeah.

Oh, brilliant. So you're not affiliated necessarily with any particular coaching school? So any coach can come to you and say, hey, I need some mentor coaching time.

I do some freelance work with a local school here in Singapore, so I don't have to market that. So the school will send me students to mentor. But yes, I run my own mentoring program as well, and it's typically 3 one-on-one sessions and 7 group sessions.

Yeah.

Okay.

Oh, fantastic. All right. Well, if anyone is needing that going through their certification, definitely look Jenny up. Okay. So I wanted to start diving a little bit more into the process of building your business.

Okay, sure.

Tell me what it's been like. Like, what have you learned about yourself through growing a business, or, or about business?

Okay, I— if I could tell my younger self, like, 5 years ago— I know I started my business 6 years ago. Yeah, maybe about 5, 6 years ago— don't be so hard on yourself. It's all a learning process. I am a perfectionist. I jokingly say I'm a recovering perfectionist, but I remembered there was so much stress, anxiety when I thought, oh, I need to get this right. But because I'm a new, you know, business owner, I don't know what right was then. So I talked to people, I did research online. ChatGPT wasn't a thing then, so I did research the old way by talking to people, reading articles, reading journals, and I struggled with, am I getting this right? So I would say my wiser, older self today would tell that Jenny then, it's all right, you know, it's experimentation. If it's not right, quote unquote, you always get another chance because that's the beauty of running your own business. You get to say how you want to pivot, how you want to change, you know, how you want to create new programs, how you want to drop old programs, and how do you want to kind of show up in the world. But what has kept me consistent is, you know, my purpose. I really want to support the quieter individuals and leaders because I'm very passionate about that. So it made— the program structure may change, yes, but my ideal clients have always been, uh, you know, this group of people.

I think, I mean, that is such an important lesson, right? Which is, yeah, you don't actually have to get it right. And you certainly don't have to get it right straight away. And I think it's the, the not getting it right that is almost an essential part of business growth. And we have to, to try things, and there are really important learnings that come from doing that. So if you'd skipped that part, then you would have had to come back to it later on, maybe more painful. Yeah, exactly. So no, I really love that. And so, you know, for anyone listening who's in that space where it's feeling like like, oh, you know, you don't know what you don't know, you're a bit worried about getting it wrong. Firstly, yeah, it's part of it. And then second, I don't know if you can get it wrong, right? Because there is no right, if that makes sense, that, you know, we are all creating something that is right for us. And yes, there are themes, there are things we can do to optimize and to make it as, you know, easy as we can on ourselves. But, you know, there is no— no one's going to give you a you know, a grade on how right you did it, actually.

But I think it's because, you know, we have mutual backgrounds. We came from law and I spent, you know, about 17 years in banking. It's a very structured, regulated environment. Being a lawyer in a bank. So it's like a double whammy there, right?

Like you really do have to be right in that environment.

You have to be right. Yeah. And then they come to you to say, you know, can you interpret this regulation? We don't want to get it wrong. So that, yeah. That sentence, don't get it wrong. So when you move from corporate to becoming a coach, or when you're starting a business, whatever business that is, and if you've come from that environment, it's very difficult to let go the expectation. Yeah, I don't want to get it wrong. What are the consequences if I get it wrong? So I'm not saying that if you run a business without planning, without goals, without accountability, it's the right way to do it. I still believe in structure, I still believe in accountability, and I still believe in a strong community. However, maybe it's to give yourself a bit more compassion. Person, right? You know, it's— you're not setting hard KPIs and you're not breaching any regulations. Make sure you check what authority you can to do certain things, but you have a lot more freedom. And I think it's this big shift if you're coming from a very strict corporate environment to becoming a business owner. That freedom in the beginning is unsettling, and it takes some time to get used to it.

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, even— oh my God, I've been out the corporate world for a very long time now, and I still now am like, hang on, isn't someone gonna, you know, check on what I'm doing and make sure I'm doing it right and, you know, give me a performance review? And so yeah, it's a, it's a feeling like, I guess, losing the scaffolding, losing the platforming from beneath you, and then suddenly you have to create it for yourself. So I think patience with yourself in that process of figuring out what your, what your foundation will be is really important. And so, so obviously, you know, huge learning curve. I think growing a business is a massive learning curve. But what have the biggest challenges been for you?

Handling rejection. So I remember when I fumbled through what we call a discovery call with a potential client. I think I was nervous. This was like in the first few months, right? I was nervous and I was thinking I'm selling myself. Yeah. And then when that potential client says, oh, Jenny, I don't think I think this is what I need right now. Thank you very much. And of course, I ended the call well. I said, please stay in touch. And I remember that call when I, you know, it was a Zoom call because it was COVID, right? It was a Zoom call. I hung up, I went to my husband, and I said, I made a mistake. I'm not going to be a coach. This business is not going to succeed. Just because of one call. And then my husband is like, okay, can you just sleep on it? You don't have to make any decisions right now. You still got a full-time job, and you are kind of like experimenting, right? He's very supportive, but at the same time, he's saying, I think Jenny, you've overreacted there. Because when she said no, it was so personal.

Yes.

I just felt like, oh, she— and I don't know her, right? It was someone who recommended her to me, right? And I don't have a personal relationship with her, but it hurts so much, right? So I know maybe some other coaches are more resilient in that sense, but being a newbie coach, rejection was so difficult. I think we always feel it, but yeah, like, especially in that point, they don't like me. Since it is our inner human desire to be liked.

Yes, right.

Whether you want to admit it or not, right?

Oh, I admit it. I, I admit it. For me, that's been a big story for me my whole life, right? Does that need to be liked? And making sure that it's not the thing now that dictates how I behave and how I run my business. But yeah, I really— I hear you. So, you know, obviously there's more to this story.

How did you get to come to grips with By having many, many discovery calls. Yes. And by talking to people and by reading quite a lot of sales— I'll say sales book. I follow some, some people who are in sales and marketing, and they always say that, you know, it takes how many nos until you get to that yes, right? So it's about a numbers game. But that emotional part of me was something I need to grow through to accept that it's a numbers game. Fast forward to today, I do prepare for discovery calls, like I check out that person's profile and see what industry this person is in. And, you know, my booking calendar also has a few questions for that person to answer, so I get an idea. So there's some prep there, but when I go into the call, I'm definitely more relaxed, more open, and I'm thinking, how can I be of service for this person? And if I'm not the right person to provide the support this person it's okay, maybe I can introduce this person to someone else. Or sometimes there are potential clients who actually need counseling more than coaching, and I also have a network of counselors that whom I can refer to. So it's, it's a shift now. It's not like, oh, will they like me? It's more like, how can I help them, and am I the right person to help them? So even sometimes when people want to work with me, I feel something. I'm not saying no straight away. I feel that that I may not be the right person to help for whatever concern that was. So I'm more than happy to refer that person to someone I know who I think will be more suitable. Like some of them, they want, you know, can you give me lessons in Marketing 101, right? That's not my area. I can give advice from shared experiences, but that's not my area. And if I know of someone, you know, definitely I can direct them your way, right, for help. So you can It's more like the shift from, oh, I need to be liked, to how can I best support this person. And I think that's more empowering for me and for the client.

And not only is it more empowering for you and for the client, it's also more effective, right? So I bet you get a much higher acceptance rate with that approach.

I get comments like, Jenny, you are the first coach who doesn't want to sell anything to me but who gave me so much value that I walk away feeling bad because I now know what to do next. And I tell them, that's okay. If you know what to do next, maybe you don't need a coach at this juncture. Yeah, but down the road, if you do, happy to continue the conversation. So I don't know whether that's a good selling strategy because I give them so much, they walk away, but they feel really heard and really understood. I had someone who told me, you are the first person who has really seen me. And that's powerful considering that I don't know her before then.

Yeah, I love that. I think that's really, really helpful. And I think the same applies to conversations with organizational clients, right? Which is, how can I be of service? How can I help them figure out what they actually need in this, you know, whatever challenge they've presented with? And how can I be either the person who can provide that, or I can connect them to the people that do? So that spirit of service for organizations, you know, I'm building this stickiness.

So in the first juncture, they might say, Jenny, oh, we have a pool of coaches or trainers or consultants we work with. But I'm a bit sticky. I go back and say, yeah, but what's your leaders' demographic like, right? Are there a group of leaders who are not, you know, getting the right support? And then they say, no, no, no, I think we're all good. Then I follow up again with an article. So I'm learning to be a bit more sticky, but there's a part of me that feels like, oh, am I being annoying? So that's when the system you know, like the follow-ups help me feel like, okay, I'm not being annoying, I'm just following up.

Yeah, I love that. What are you most proud of from what you've built?

That it's my own. Yeah, I mean, I collaborate with other coaches and I work for other companies, but this is something that I've built from scratch.

Yeah.

And it's my brand, and I hope one day it's my legacy that people will remember me as, you know, the founder of RiverLife Coaching, and I supported them at a phase in their career. Yeah.

Oh, I love that. I love that. That idea of legacy is so important. Can you share just, you know, like a couple of experiences you've had with your clients, obviously keeping confidentiality in mind, that, that have really validated you know, that you're proud of, or the impact you've had that really sort of helps you stay, yeah, this is what I'm meant to be doing?

I cannot narrow it down to one because I believe that every person I coach has received some benefit. And the power is when their perspective changed, there's a ripple effect to their organization, to their teams, and even to their personal lives. Because I had some female leaders come to me and say that I'm now using what we talked about with my children. So that's really, you know, that's really powerful. And I was thinking, I only played that small part. I'm not in their lives, right? Because it's only in the coaching session. And the beauty of it is, I have clients who tell me, you know, that last question that you asked me 3 months ago, I've been sitting with it and I'm scratching my head. What was that question that I asked you 3 months ago? So for coaches, sometimes we feel that, oh, our session is not transformational. That's what I talk about with my mentees and also my supervisees in our training. Like, I don't feel it was transformational, let go of that. Because we have this strong desire to help people, so we want to see the transformation. It's not for us to see the transformation, it's just to have faith that, you know, whatever work you do with your client, the transformation happens in between sessions, months after the sessions, and maybe later down the road. So I've seen it as planting seeds. and they are the ones who will have that ripple effect.

I love that. I love that. And that's sort of, it's a good reminder, isn't it, as coaches that we actually, we don't hold the outcome, right? We don't hold the outcome, that our coachees get to own that. And, and that includes, you know, their transformation that is theirs to let unfold. We're just sort of putting in place the conditions where it can occur. I, yeah, I really love that. So if you were talking to a new coach, and I think you sort of touched on this when you sort of said, what would you tell Jenny in the early days? What tips would you have for new coaches starting a business?

Definitely reach out to more experienced coaches. I have new coaches who reach out to me and connect, and they, they have conversations with me. And okay, I'm a bit more pragmatic here, so I don't say quit your day job today because you've got your ICF ACC credential. Yes, I asked them, you know, what's your plan? What's your thinking? Do you want to work in an organization as a coach? Do you want to run your own? So I do like a mini mentoring and coaching session. But for those who are thinking of moving out from corporate to become a coach or to start a business, build your network. Ask people who's done it before, because you don't have to start anything from scratch. That being said, I've talked to people who say, don't go into coaching, you're not going to be able to earn a living from it. So maybe at this early stage, just Practice a bit more discernment, you know, if you think that person's too negative, don't go there. It's very discouraging. Yeah, neither do you go to someone who is, you know, who said, oh yeah, start your business today, next week you're gonna get your first client. That's setting you up for disappointment. But I believe in a strong community because when you run your business alone, it is very lonely. And I'm talking from an introvert's perspective, right? I introspect so much. That I don't know, you know, again, am I doing it right? You know, I like to talk to people in smaller groups or one-on-one to get to hear their story and to be inspired and encouraged by them, right? And yeah, seek support. So build a community and then seek support, whether you want to work with a coach, a mentor, or work with you, Ellie. Definitely seek support because I'm a firm believer in structure now. I mean, always been a firm believer in structure, but I never quite moved that to my business. And since last year, I've put a lot of structure in my business, and I can see it's set up for success now.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And sort of seeing your business, I'm so impressed. I do have to ask, you know, your experience inside the accelerator, how has that supported you with the growth of your business?

I love the learning. And like I said, you are like that person I go to when I'm thinking, is this right? Has people done it before? And you're so transparent about so many things because you've created such a safe space, and the community members also share that I think if I were to ask another person who's not my friend, they won't tell me, right? So I believe in the strength of the community, the library of, you know, classes, lessons, and I love structure, so your templates are great as a starting point. I've used quite a lot of templates. So it's— your program is very resourceful, but the power is also in the community because sometimes you may not give the answer and then someone else chimes in and they give the answer. So it's very powerful. So I mean, for coaches, you know, find a community whatever community that works for you. You don't have to do this alone. They're not gonna run the business for you, but it's good just to hear what other people are doing and you get ideas from them. Yeah. And you share your ideas with them.

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I think from my experience, that's really how I grew my business, which was through— you know, I didn't have a program like I run inside the accelerator, but I had, had mentors and I had coaches who were in my but who were extremely transformational and supportive. And without that, it would have been a much slower journey. So yeah, I really agree, lean into community in a big way. So if it's okay, Jenny, I want to just, uh, ask you a few rapid-fire fun questions to end with that I like to ask. And you know, I have given some notice of these questions. I didn't used to. I used to just, you know, throw them at people and people would be like, oh no. Okay, so first question.

If you could—

yeah, Jenny's fanning herself. If you could coach anyone in the world, who would it be?

I thought about this, but it's not so much coaching, it's having a conversation. So I'm a big fan of Michael J. Fox. He's a Hollywood actor, and it's like a childhood fan of his ever since I was young. Right now he's been going through Parkinson's for a very long time, and he's used that as a platform to create awareness. So I would love to have a conversation with him because he always seems so positive whereas, you know, physically, that's— it's just so challenging. I can't imagine going through life like that. So it's like the coach's dream, right? How can someone be so resilient despite the physical disability that he has, right? And we all need stories like that, you know. It's not so much about, look at me, I've made, you know, what, a six-income profit, right? People don't really resonate with that. But look at me, this is what I'm doing despite or in spite of what I'm going through. So it's not a coaching conversation, it's more like I want to know how he is so resilient.

Yeah, I love that. That's a great answer. Thank you. If you could recommend a podcast or book for coaches out there, what would you recommend?

I would recommend your podcast.

Thank you.

The Business of Executive Coaching. I also listen to Action for Happiness, so that's more of a positive psychology angle, and they have Sometimes they have 10-minute sessions for you, 10-minute episodes for you to ground yourself, to be kinder to yourself. And sometimes they have long interviews with positive psychology practitioners to talk about certain topics. Could be anxiety, could be resilience, could be, you know, what is happiness all about. And it is not about, you know, being happy and laughing all the time. There is this strong inner calmness and peace that you can get. So definitely for maybe a bit of both, right? They listen to your podcast to get ideas on how to grow the business, build the business, but for that inner work, maybe listen to Action for Happiness. I love that.

I'm going to listen to that. I don't know of that one, so thank you very much for sharing that. And you know, if you could recommend something that is a practical tool or piece of software that makes your business life life better, what would you recommend?

I think everyone says this, right? Use AI, but use it wisely and with the proper guardrails. Okay, this is the lawyer in me talking. Is it ethical to— so I do use a few tools, but I think my go-to is still ChatGPT and Claude. I mean, a lot of people say drop ChatGPT, just use Claude, but I use both to kind of structure my thinking. Yeah, sometimes just to polish things up a it. Yes, create content, but it goes through my review like several times. So that's the perfectionist in me coming up to say that, oh, you know, this sounds so ChatGPT, not like me. So the end result, I use just the structure, right? And it saves time because in the past when I was writing blogs on my own, I used to sit on them for days until I get it right, right? So now with AI, it may come out after 20 minutes. Right, it's still my piece, it's still my thinking, but it helps me go through that process much faster.

Yeah, fantastic. That's a great suggestion. And, and yeah, I think smart use of AI, not in a way that dampens your creativity, but in a way that, you know, either amplifies or gets you out there, gets you out of your head, helps you with that editing, is brilliant. I, I think that's amazing. Look, Jenny, thank you so much for being here with us today. Really appreciate all your insights. I just know that there's be so much, uh, gold there for, for coaches of all levels of experience. And so if people want to connect with you, either looking for a mentor, coach, or just to connect, is LinkedIn the best way to do it? And do you have a website we can direct people to?

Yes, so LinkedIn, I have a company page, River Life Coaching, or you can connect with me directly, Jenny To. I don't think it's that difficult to find me because my profile is quite active nowadays. Excellent. And then I do I do have a website, so it's, uh, www.riverlifecoaching.com.

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Jenny. And again, thank you so much for your time and all of your insights here today.

Thank you.