Toni Carroll - from Strategic HR to Executive Coaching and more - Accelerator Member Profile

Welcome to the Business of Executive Coaching podcast. As you may have noticed, we are interviewing a few of the wonderful members of the Corporate to Coach accelerator because of the extremely diverse and wonderful stories that they have to tell, particularly about the work they do and their corporate to coach journeys. Today I am very fortunate to have the wonderful Tony Carroll with me. Toni, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Ellie.

I'm very excited to get into your story, Tony. And so rather than me starting with with, you know, reading your bio style intro, I thought I might let you introduce yourself. How would you describe what you do as a coach?

Oh, that's a great question. I guess one way of me thinking about that is I like to sit think that I sit between my client, whether it be an organization or an individual and you know, whatever the business imperative is that they're trying to achieve and helping them, supporting them through whatever capacity or capability gap they have when it comes to how they lead themselves in that situation. So yeah, I guess I do that in a couple of ways. I do it as being an executive coach for them or a leadership and development coach. I also help design programs around leadership capability and a couple of other topics as well. And as a consultant. So I think in that consultant area is quite broad, but it does really focus in on sort of strategic talent and people practices in organizations. So how do we get that engine that supports our colleagues to have the capability and capacity to deliver on whatever the organization is trying to achieve and how do we get them best aligned to that so that they feel like they feel like they're in the right place, they feel engaged and they feel ready to thrive and perform?

I love that, Tony. And the reason I asked to start with that question is that I think it is clear when we hear you talk about your work just how much insight you have into what it is like in an organization both for leaders and for HR team leaders and for executive team members. So I just wanted to get that in the on the table because when Tony tells us her corporate to coach story, it's going to make a lot of sense given her background. So Toni, can you tell us a little bit about your professional career, so your journey and then really what made you decide to make the transition into coaching?

So I mean, I've grown up in, into people and culture roles and that's where I started my career and that's where I sort of transitioned out of my corporate career and I started it in Australia and I moved to London and I came back and I spent 16 years in Asia, each time sort of getting deeper into strategic talent, people and culture roles. Always, though, had this pull back to more of the culture and development side as opposed to say, you know, operational effectiveness or anything like that. So where I found, wherever I landed, I was always thinking about whether it was my immediate team, how do they, this, how does this team come together and be more effective? Or it was my stakeholders and their teams, how would they come together and be more effective? So I guess that sort of 30 years of doing that in corporates and I was in Singapore probably about 12 years ago actually, and I was in a role and I was enjoying my role. It was, I'd been in, it was first time in Asia and we'd been there for almost four or so years and. But I was also at the, at that time growing a family and also knowing that I was going to come back to Australia eventually. And I was thinking about, well, how do I, how am I going to be able to juggle all of that? And one of the ways I thought about doing it was rather than working in an organization was actually to work for myself. Yeah. So I, and I got curious around executive coaching at that time. I. And so I went out and I did my qualifications and I went, yeah, no, this sounds really, this is great. I really enjoyed it. And then I began sort of engaging people who were in the biz to see how did, how do you do it? Because there were a lot of people that I met at that time who were doing what I wanted to do, but I didn't quite understand how they were doing it. And so one thing I came across is a very engaging and supportive community. And, you know, they were always willing to sort of sit and have a conversation with me, which was great. But the one thing that kept coming up for me was I'm still not sure how I make this transition. Like, I can see these people doing it. I had some great role models, but I didn't quite have the Runway to be able to think, how do I get, get there? And the biggest paralyzing factor for me was leaving behind that monthly paycheck. I was like, I just don't, I don't get how I do this. So it won't surprise anyone to know then that it was. It took me about five seconds to accept another role in a strategic HR role rather than sort of jumping off and going into my own business at that stage. So I, I ended up going back to the more corporate, traditional sort of development of my career and thinking that coaching is something that I will come back to at a point in time. And I actually wanted to try and, you know, continue my coaching through that corporate experience, which I did to some degree. I mean, I did in terms of coaching the leaders in. In the new organization I was coming into and, you know, always wearing that sort of coach and development hat. But the reality is it took me about another 11 years before I began to sort of come back to this place of, all right, okay, what do I do now? Because I'm. I'd had some amazing experience over 11 years. If I think back now, it gave me a lot of exposure to a lot of the ways that I operate within my business now, the sorts of points of view I have and the approaches that I adopt. So it was hugely valuable as a part of my career. But I was coming to that point of thinking it's, well, it's sort of now or never if we're going to move back to Australia. And when we do that, how do I, you know, spend my time? This would be the time that I would start to operate my own business. But I will say I still had those two blockers. The one was I didn't know how to do it, and two was how do I leave behind the check and feel comfortable with that.

Yeah, I hear you and I want to dive into those blockers. But actually the thing that really struck me from that story, and I remember when you and I talked, you know, when we were first talking about working together, and it was this business was something that had been on your mind for a very long time and that, you know, these opportunities where it could have happened earlier but. But it wasn't the right time. And you know, it sounds like, like all the learning you had in. In your roles absolutely has meant that what you can bring to your clients now is so rich and valuable. But I do, I just want to, you know, for anyone listening who feels like they might have lost their chance or gone past of no return, it's really not true. Like, you can still make that choice and do it, do it very well. And I think Tony's a great example of people doing. Making this transition successfully. But it's not easy.

No, no, it's not easy. You know, I think we've talked before about this idea of the roller coaster. And when we check in, it's like, where are we in. Where are we on that roller coaster at any point in time? And I think that's. That's so very true. But then I was reflecting that happens and you might be at the bottom of the roller coaster at any point in time. But then you have, you know, a great session with a coaching client. You get off a call with a client after talking about a challenge they've got and how you're going to be able to help them build a solution, you know, or you've delivered a program and you just go. I go, well, this is where I'm meant to be. Yeah, it's, you know, you got to take the good with the bad, I guess.

And I really hear when talking to you, that sense of purpose, right? That sense that, yeah, you have these sessions and it's like, yeah, this is, this is what I'm meant to be doing. Do you find that there's a part of your work that you do that really brings that, that meaning for you or is it the combination?

So for me, so, yeah, this is probably where some of that corporate context comes into play. Because being in the roles that I was in in an organization, I had a front row seat to seeing how managers in particular, or leaders really struggled a lot with what organizations wanted them to be able to do. Right. You know, on paper it makes sense, but then actually in action, it's more challenging. And I knew then, you know, when I go out and do this in service of other organizations, that I wanted to be able to bring that perspective with me. And what that means is really supporting leaders or giving them the opportunity to not just get a framework or to get a tool, but actually have an experience where they get to know themselves better and they then understand, here's the tool, but how they are best to implement it or use it, or leverage it, whatever the word is you want to use. And so I think that's probably one of the key things, things that brings me into this place of purpose, because my purpose is in really helping to make that a very real and unique experience for each manager. And, you know, obviously you can do that through executive coaching one to one. But I also want to bring that when I do one to many, whether it's in a group coaching or a facilitated program. And I guess if I sort of get right down to it, it's about, from an organizational perspective, you want to see impact in, from the investments that you're making in development. So when you get a consultant in or a facilitator in, I really am driven to want to see that behavior change as a result. So there's a real empathy for how managers live and work in an organization. I want to bring that, but I also want to bring that sort of commercial when it, when the rubber hits the road, I want to see that. That I'm getting a return on that investment. So yeah, that's probably where that purpose bit comes in.

I love it. And there's probably like that combination of nature and nurture in there, Tony, which is like you've got that innate drive to, to, you know, really help the human in the transition and the growth and the nurture piece is. Well, you've grown up in, in strategic HR roles, which means that you cannot disconnect your brain from what is the ROI for the organization. And so there's purpose in both. Yeah, I really, I love that. When you were in roles yourself, did you ever have a coach or have an experience of being coach that informed your.

You know what? So I've had lots of mentors throughout my career who have been like such valuable sounding boards and I've certainly learned a lot from all of my experiences. Like I've had a bit of a sort of. Yeah. Learning orientation to the way that I approach things. Particularly sort of high stakes, high risk things. I sort of think, well, there's something in this for me to learn. So. But actually having a coach I didn't have and I sort of, I wish that I did have because I think there's huge. It's. My role in an organization is really. Can be very lonely and isolating. You can sometimes feel like you're sort of stuck between the business, your manager, your peers across the broader HR team. And it can be hard to try and be both operationally effective in deploying things and also strategically effective in solving future problems and doing that all at the same time. So it can be quite overwhelming. I loved it, but I would have really relished an opportunity to have someone that was either there to be a coach to me, one to one, or to be part of a group coaching sort of solution. Which is why that's, you know, one of the areas when I think about the sorts of clients that I work with. I work with leaders who are leaders in an organization. I like working with females, female leaders in organizations too, from an inclusion and progression perspective. But I also really like working with talent leaders and chief people officers because that I didn't have that. Yeah, I think that would be really valuable for people to have and I'd like to be able to bring that to them. Yeah.

Yeah. Amazing that. That opportunity. So you sort of foreshadowed. One of my other questions is what sort of clients do you work with now? Do you have like a. An industry that you Specialize in or a type of person.

Yeah. So I guess having spent sort of most of my corporate career in insurance and financial services and banking, that I have a really sort of deep contextual understanding of that, that sort of industry and what it's like to work in that industry. And so my sort of go to clients are probably going to come from. From that area. That said, when we talk about leadership capabilities, there is an environmental context that comes into that, but there's also some core capability. So, you know, I'm able to sort of translate that across professional services and.

Yeah.

And other industries. So that would sort of be one. Organizationally, that's probably one of the key areas. But you know, as I said, I talked about female leaders. I think another area for me is just our middle managers and frontline managers as well. And this again sort of comes back to my own experience in organisations as I've been sort of leading change or working with executive leadership teams and their managers to try and implement change in organizations. It was just so evident that our managers were the ones that were holding so much responsibility and accountability for that. But really when we think about the leadership development dollar spend they get, so, you know, they get a pretty raw deal. And so I like to think about how I can create solutions which are quality for the individuals and the organization and also cost effective for the organization. You know, in, in that. So middle managers is someone, some. A sort of a group of clients. I'd add to that as well.

I love that. And you're right, definitely a neglected group given your background in hr. And you must have been, you know, the person bringing in coaches and bringing in, you know, facilitators. What did that teach you about how you wanted to show up as a coach, you know, from an organizational perspective or as a player?

Yeah, I think what it did teach me. So when I was dealing with coaches, what I experienced was they come with a very deep observational lens of being able to sort of step back or sit with beside someone and sort of support them through whatever it is the journey is. Now, as the internal HR person, I came with the organizational challenge mainly, but then knowing that the coach is going to sit there with the organization and the individual and sort of support them through both of those journeys. So I think that's one perspective that I take from that experience is the coaches that we had, that had worked in our organizations previously were very experienced, but also very had a deep emotional intelligence in the way that they would support leaders. And I guess that's something that I'D aspire to be able to bring to my clients as well.

Yeah, I love that. And so if we think about this growing of business because the practice of coaching and this technical expertise you had in HR and with leadership and culture, that's almost like the bread and butter, right. That gets you in the door. But the growing of a business is a different thing. And my first question for you is, what did you learn about yourself as you started your business? What's this journey been for you?

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that spring to mind. One of the biggest things I probably learned is how I'm going to say unkind we are to ourselves, but obviously it's me how unkind we can be because we have a. Can have a lot of self doubt because we're going into a space that we haven't experienced. And I'm someone who's very practical, very tangible. Once I've done something once, then I've got some sort of memory muscle around that and then I can do it again. Right. But it's that first time you go out, you try and do it and you're like, I'm not sure what this is. And I think your mindset is really important to how you approach those situations. So that's probably one of the big things I've learned. And you know, we. You. One of the things that I know I've learned through the programming that you've been supporting us with is that whole idea of experimentation that, you know, taking the pressure off, that this doesn't need to be a hundred percent, can be less than 80 or whatever is your comfortable with. And it's just an experiment that actually has been a really important thing for me to keep hold of as I'm going out there and thinking about how I talk to clients and solutions and so on.

Yeah, it's so funny because I think when we, when we start our business, we're suddenly throwing ourselves into this transition of our own. And we're so used to coaching other people on, on their mindset and helping them and suddenly like we're in this real life, life incubator of all of these things and, and it becomes very clear where we are, you know, walking the talk and where maybe we are, you know, very good at talking the talk and supporting other people. But maybe we don't take our own medicine. And I think that mindset is a, is a really big one. And I think, you know, we think about our coach training is often like this hugely developmental journey for us. Right we get our first experience of being coached, we're learning all this stuff, and then I think we don't have anything comparable to that for a long time. But I think when we actually then start our businesses, it's almost like another opportunity in. In some ways it's a little more painful, but it's, you know, similar kind of. Yeah. Developmental leap.

Yeah. I think. I mean, the other things that I've actually learned, you know, we. One of the first things people would tell me, and I think even including yourself, is it will take time. And it does take time. You can. You still have an expectation, though, on yourself, which is probably this, you know, being unkind to yourself, that you're going to be kicking goals well before you probably should expect to be able to keep goals.

Yes.

But there's actually a really good reason for that, and that is because it takes. It's not just time to win the first client and get revenue going, pumping through. It's actually you need that time to be able to get really clear around who you are, why are you doing it, what are your offerings, who are your clients? I've just experienced that the way I approach those questions 18 months ago is very different to how I approach those questions this way. And that is all because of what I've learned over the last 18 months about myself and the experimentation and the feedback that I get on that. So I think that has been a big learning. And I. It's almost like you're not just becoming a coach, you're actually building this whole ecosystem of support and interconnectedness around you. And. And that takes time to build as well. And.

And you're really almost recreating an identity to something.

Yeah.

And. And there is like, all of the practical stuff takes time, and we have to hold it lightly and we redefine.

But.

But also, you know, there's some quite fundamental shifts, you know, that. That are going on. And I think. Yeah, expecting that to happen in a month or two is. Is unrealistic. And, you know, that expectation can be possibly quite damaging if we don't give ourselves a bit of time.

Absolutely. I mean, if I think about that, the shifts that you. You just said there is. You know, I never really looked at LinkedIn as a place where I would spend a lot of time, but now I spend a lot of time there because it's, you know, it's that place where I can build my network, build my connections, build my business, build my brand. But making that shift to think, well, I'm actually here and I'M going to be posting things that people will find inspiring. And that was another shift for me as well, is thinking, well, why would anyone want to hear from me? Because I'm not the thought leader necessarily. But actually when you start posting and experiencing that, you get. I've had a number of people when I've reached out and said, hey, thanks for reacting or thanks for commenting. And they've, they've said, look, we really, I really enjoy your content. And I'm like, oh, okay, right. So, you know, it's sort of realizing that your, your content or the, the thoughts and the messages that you want to share are helping someone or it's resonating with someone, and that's an important thing to develop.

Yeah, I love that. And, and that idea that we don't know really who is engaging with us. So there's, there's this degree that we're acting on faith for a while. Right. Which is faith that if I do the right things, it's going to work out in the end. And I kind of, I want, I want to link that back to this blocker that you had when, when it was coming to starting a business, which is, oh, my God, how do I step away from this certainty? Right? This certainty of, you know, I do the work, I get paid, or, and then we translate. It's like, I do the posting and people will be interested or I do the outreach and the clients will come. Like, how have you come to grips with that? And the roller coaster, right. Which is there are no guarantees, but it does tend to work out if we're doing the right things. Like how have you. Yeah, how have you thought about it?

So, and it's taken a while and I, you know, today and this week, I'm sort of, you know, at the top and I'm not down here. So timing is something as well. But I think one of the things about that whole feeling of certainty and losing that is the control aspect. And so actually it's the little things that we do in managing our business that help us feel like we're in control. Whether that's real or imagined, whatever it is, if, if it's doing a service to us, terms of keeping our mindset in the right place, I'm all for it. So now when I think about proposals, for example, and I'm sending those out, I know that the, the silence is deafening, but invariably it's not because they don't like me or they don't want the solution. It's just because they have a whole other you know, lot of stuff that they're doing. And so a really small thing for me is now thinking proactively. Right. I'm sending this today. Realistically I'll follow it up in a week and then I'll do, you know, I might do two or three follow ups and then I'll do a. Oh, you know, do you, have you forgotten about this? Or is it, is it needed? And just knowing that I'm going to have a way to manage that actually helps. Yeah. And yeah, so that was in terms of the proposals and then the other one, I think that's been really instrumental is actually getting tactical around the outreach and the pipeline management.

Yeah.

Because I, I would always be able to sit here and think of the five things that I, you know, on a post it note or something that's there. But now what I know is I've been maintaining that routinely is that it's actually, it's growing and there's a reinforcement.

Yeah.

In that. So I, and I've now got a sense of being able to put timings around it and think, yeah, well, the chunkiness of the first quarter, that's gone. But there might be some chunkiness happening towards the end of this quarter or at the beginning of next. And I think that is so, you know, information is power, I guess, in that respect. It's having that there and all consolidated and helping to manage.

I love that. And what I like is that it's not saying we shouldn't feel this need to be in control. It's actually what can we do? So we feel a little bit more control, even though it might not be a true control. We can control the things that we can control. And part of that is capturing data. And one of the things I love about that is sometimes we feel out of control or like things are bad when if we look at the data, they're not. And so making sure it's not our negative mindset, just telling us stories and unhelpful stories in that when you think about the work you've done and the growth you've had as a business owner, what are you most proud of?

I think the thing I'm most proud of is that emerging clarity around who I am, what I do and who I do it for, that knowing that I had to walk all of these other months to be able to get to this place and that I will potentially walk more months and it will get clearer. Like, I feel very proud that I've been able to do that. I think, I mean, the other thing I'm quite proud of is from a sort of a client win perspective is. And it wasn't immediately clear to me until I sort of started to sit down and think about it. But my earliest organizational client, when I first engaged with them, I was, it wasn't necessarily in my sweet spot of solutions to provide, but what I wanted to do at that time was sort of hold true to some key principles around how I design and deliver programs. And, and those principles were that it needed to be personally driven. So I wanted people to have a goal and we got that. It needed to be really practice orientated because I wanted people to be able to use the skills in the training in the program and then be supported to go back and practice them again in their real teams. And I also wanted the managers involved in that because I think that's an important connecting of the dot. And I also wanted a connection back to the broader business strategy. And, and those things are quite, you know, sometimes when you go into an organization, they might go, yeah, no, we just want this. But actually I think I'm quite proud of the way that I facilitated or consulted with the client to help them understand the benefits of all of that. And we got all of those things into the program and we got some amazing feedback on that program. But the sort of icing on the cake is that whilst that wasn't necessarily my sweet spot, now they're talking to me about my sweet spot and there'll be something there later. So it also, I think I got that lesson of, you know, putting in the work and building the relationship and getting some runs on the board sort of paves the way for the, the stuff that you probably will really, really, really enjoy doing.

Absolutely. And I really heard that, you know, you really stood like you were, you were flexible in terms of, you know, the what, but the how. It was really important to you that the how was not transactional. It was actually very meaningful in terms of what you knew from your experience was going to be delivered. And I love that because we do have to be flexible in terms of, you know, what we do and who we do it with. But we have to be really clear on what are our values and what are our, you know, the perspectives we bring and what is, you know, what is going to be a meaningful shift to help our clients reach their goals. I love that and I also love that that win around the clarity that is emerging. And you know, I love how you said emerging not has emerged because I think for all of us, right, this is an evolving process which is fabulous. So if I can be self serving for a moment. Like we've loved having you in the accelerator. I was wondering, I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what that is experience has been like for you being a member.

Yeah, well, it's, it's, I guess it's been a, an integral part of that ecosystem that I have built. So if I go right back to the origin story of when I became connected to you, it was, I said to a fellow person we both know, I just don't know how to do it, got no idea how to make this transition. And she literally said, well look, I know this person who's is designing something specifically for that purpose. And that I guess had got me on to, got me to the starting line because when I looked at the original corporate to coach blueprint, I was like, oh my gosh, well this is it, right? There's no more excuses here because here's your blueprint. So that was really helpful. And then as we've gone through, I think back to the point around the ecosystem having a sort of community of people that are going through the same experience as you from very, very different backgrounds and at very, very different stages sometimes. There's always been something to learn out of that experience and that's been hugely valuable. And I've also really enjoyed, I guess there's, it's almost like an accountability mechanism. It's right. There's a call this week and, and I'm going to be asked what am I proud of, what have I learned and what's coming up. Right. So what I'm, what am I doing in these spaces? And so I think that's been really, very, very valuable to do. You know, there's some of those community things, but then there's also been, you know, just the support coming through when we're talking specific deals or pitches and how to think about how we're marketing ourselves and those important sort of management tools that we have in terms of outreach approaches around outreach and pipeline management. And yeah, it's been, it's a large part of that ecosystem actually that helps you get to where you need to get to.

And I was thinking, I always think about our work together, Tony. And the thing I really love is when we can do some real deal. Let's figure out what's this deal gonna look like. I love it. Let's think about pricing, let's include what's included. Yeah, I think that that's, yeah, something, something I really enjoy. Thank you for sharing. For sharing that if you were talking to a new executive coach or someone who was, you know, in the early stages of their business, what tips do you have for them that, that you'd want them to take away from this chat?

It sort of goes back to some of those learnings, but I think it's be patient and be kind to yourself at the same time because it is going to take time. Yeah. I'd also say get the support in place, whether it's corporate to coach accelerator or it's the community of coaches that you might want to pull around you, the way you can share experiences and so on, but really make sure you get that support team in place to help you through. What else would I say? I would say, I think the main thing around, sort of when I was talking about LinkedIn was being really conscious that you are going to make some mindset shifts in how you think about these platforms and how you also think about how you market yourself and the fact that you will be marketing yourself. And if you want this to be a business, then you, you do need to do that because I think there's very few people can sort of sit there and have it all just delivered them that be nice. You need to go out and do that and be prepared for that. To feel, feel icky at the start, but necessary and then eventually start to enjoy it when you, you get into a bit of a rhythm around it too.

Yeah, I love that. And that I think you shared that idea that, that it starts to, to build upon itself. So you start to get this momentum when you're doing the consistent outreach and posting. And I think that, that, that's a great, a great message as well.

Another one that just happened to me this week actually was when I think about my network of people and we always say start with the warm first because that's easiest. And I, and I would look at that warm network and I'd go night. Oh, maybe. You know, you sort of categorize people and you have these preconceptions on whether or not it's going to be. Be fruitful.

Yeah.

And sometimes you've got blockers around some of those relationships too. And I had an experience this week where I decided to drop the blockers and I just reached out and surprise, surprise, that person came back and as you know, connected. So I think I've learned something out of that too, which I would say to everyone, just always, even if one, at one stage you look at your network and you go, you know, I've done everything there I can possibly do you probably haven't and come back be open to doing that and re approaching it and you just never know what's going to come from that.

That's such good advice, Tony. I think, I think it's good because yeah when we first start out our criteria of who we're willing to approach is. Is very high. It's like only the people that were my friends or gave me positive feedback or I really knew not just someone who knew me in this role and I think just in case all they might think I'm.

Yeah.

They might not not have known me or.

Yeah.

So I think doing another. Another cut of that is. Is fabulous advice. Look Tony, I'm so grateful for your time. Thank you so much for coming and and talking to us. Really appreciate it very much.

Well thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Thanks Ellie.

No worries. Now just if you are thinking that the corporate to coach accelerator might be for you and if you would like to get in before price prices go up at the end of the month you can book in a an accelerator fit call for me at elliscarf.com forward/bookacall. I'll put that in the show notes as well and we can just talk about you know weather and how the accelerator can help you to build your coaching business. So on that note thanks again and I will be back talking to you soon.