Ep 17: Welcome to 2023; starting in conversation with Eleanor Dallaway

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Have it all podcast brought to you by me, Emma Naylor, life purpose and Career Coach. This podcast is for the ambitious and motivated individuals who are ready to take the next step in their life and turn their dreams into their everyday reality. To guide them to live a life of fulfillment within their career, purpose and beyond. And to show them that you really can have it all. Hello and welcome to 2023. I am so excited to be bringing you the podcast back as we start another incredible year. Last year was wild, to say the least, full of ups and downs, especially after an an insane two years of a global pandemic. This year I really, really want to focus on taking things slow, doing things from a place of alignment, and really understanding how we can create our dream businesses, our dream careers and our dreams dream lives without burnout, without exhaustion, and without constantly feeling like we're chasing our tail. At the end of 2022, I recorded this podcast episode with Eleanor Dalloway, who is the co founder and content director at Assured. She wrote an article that really, really resonated with me and it was such an interesting read. I reached out to her and asked if we could record a podcast. The article that she wrote was called CEO Burnout Half a Minute From Death. And it was a really, really incredible but difficult read, which essentially was a feature on CEO Burnout. And it was such an interesting perspective to read from. And I won't sort of ruin it too much because this podcast episode is all about that article, all about her role and really, really deep diving. So I won't go into it too much. Here is the episode that we recorded at the end of 2022. It's one of the episodes that I wanted to save going into 2023 as I feel it's so aligned with the way that so many of us are looking to live in 2023. So without further ado, I'm so excited for you to listen to this podcast and I would love to hear your thoughts.

Hi Eleanor, thank you so much for joining me on this week's podcast. I'm so excited to have you here.

Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. It's a real treat to be on the other side of the podcast process, actually, as the interviewee.

I can imagine, I can imagine. I'd absolutely love for you, for anyone who doesn't know you or what you do, just to give a brief introduction of who you are and what you do.

Okay, so I've recently changed jobs actually. So I've joined Planet Startup and have landed in a Cyber insurance, exclusively cyber insurance brokerage called Assured, as one of the co founders. So that's quite exciting and quite the change because for the last 15 years I've been in publishing, I've been the editor, editorial director of Infosecurity magazine. And I've been reporting on tech, specifically cyber, but lots of things around data and tech too for mainstream media like the Guardian, Sunday Times, the Times, but of course my role at Infosecurity. And I also had some other magazines under me as well in my previous role, including a retail technology magazine and also a wine and spirit magazine called In Vibe, which was a lot of fun.

Wow. So you really have done a few, a lot of different things. And it's really interesting how you've landed where you've landed at the moment. And I obviously came across you when you wrote an article which was titled One Minute from Death. Something like that was a one minute from death and CEO burnout half a minute from death. And as soon as I saw that title, I was like, that is something I want to click on. And it was a really, really interesting read because it wasn't, it was what I thought it was going to be, but it also wasn't. And it's really interesting to read something that's so honest and so vulnerable. And it was really interesting. Obviously a lot of people had their names, you know, not, not added, understandably, with the information that you're, that you're sort of sharing. But it's really interesting to think about, you know, the true cost of CEOs, you know, what people in that space are in you, you know, this how the cybersecurity space can help. Can, can, can, can obviously be, you know, a big cause of the problem. Can help whatever it is. It was really interesting how it all looped together and it wasn't a way that I'd really thought about anything before. And it's really interesting to see different perspectives because I think what we often see is we see, as you said, these big CEOs, you know, running around, you know, acting as if everything's together, running these multimillion billion dollar businesses. But actually it's been really interesting to kind of get to the nitty gritty of it. And I think the first line was something along the lines, I was snorting cocaine off of porcelain in a strip Club at 5am, making it straight to work.

And I really had this real clear.

Vision of this CEO living this life and then suddenly just going into work and being like, yeah, everything, everything's great. What inspired you to write such an, for me, such an amazing, impactful article. Like what inspired you to write that.

As a good question. I think mental health is something that in the past has held quite a lot of stigma and in a certain, to a certain extent it still does. But I do think we've got a lot better as a society about talking about it. And I think that's really important. And I'm a great believer in telling people stories and telling the vulnerable side of those stories because I think that's what makes an impact. So when we were thinking about the kind of content we wanted to produce for assured it's content directed at C level, the C suite, non executive directors, directors, CEOs. And I was thinking about what is impacting them, what's maybe a story that they haven't read before. And that's where I came up with the idea of the burnout piece. You know, that sort of first paragraph that you've just quoted, it is quite sensationalist and I was quite aware when I used it as my first paragraph that it was quite sensationalist. But I also felt like it's not just about sort of grabbing people's attention, but it's kind of like that's the rock bottom of the situation we're talking about. And I just felt like it was a real. It told a story of something that maybe people haven't been brave enough to talk about in the past, but is a real symptom of this bigger situation and this bigger issue, which is burnout. So I think the strength of the article came, to be honest, not for me, but the vulnerability in the people that were willing to talk to me and tell their stories. I think CEO is a role and we can sort of move into this, actually. But it's as a particular type of personality that lends itself to the role of CEO. And I think what I found from all my research is that typical, that specific type of personality also lends itself to burnout. You know, there's people that are always striving for bigger, better, always need to go the extra distance. And actually that goes hand in hand with people that sometimes don't know when to take that step back and stop. So, yeah, I think the vulnerability of people, what they were willing to tell me and open up was what made the article so impactful.

Yeah, and it was a really, it was very, very vulnerable and it was very. I think I read it on like a Monday morning or something and I was not expecting to read something like that straight away, but it really, it was really powerful. And I think as you spoke about the stigma around mental health, it's really interesting because I think a lot of companies unfortunately like to sort of tick the box of going, yes, we care about our employees, yes, we care about this. And often I've seen it. Again, this is just, in my kind of opinion is I've seen it more for the junior team rather than the senior team. I think a lot of the time the C suite can be overlooked because a lot of companies naturally think, well, they've been doing this long enough, they know how to manage their own mental health, they know how to manage, you know, their drinking, whatever it is. And actually a lot of the clients that I work with are kind of director level above, you know, earning six figures and above. And it's really interesting because a lot of the time when I work with them, it's the first time they've ever been able to talk about the fact that they are feeling burnt out, that they are literally on the verge of not knowing what to do anymore. And often they've said, yes, there is a really big focus. But imagine the CEO coming in and saying to the, to the head of hr, this is what I'm feeling. And there is still this really, really big stigma around these Senior executives, these CEOs, not dealing with this burnout. What do you think was the most shocking thing? When you were doing the research for this article, what do you think was the most shocking thing that you came across?

I think the one thing that I kept being told, I think I interviewed 12 CEOs for this article. In the end, the one thing that kept coming back to me was that CEO as a role is the loneliest job the planet. And this feeling of loneliness I really wasn't expecting. I mean, I think when you, I don't know if you're familiar with the Insights Discovery Psychometric tool that a lot of companies use. It's when you, yeah, you rate personality types as red, yellow, green or blue leadership teams, and predominantly, obviously not exclusively, but Most leaders or CEOs fall into that red personality type. And I don't think you necessarily think, think about those people as feeling those sort of vulnerable emotions. And I think this sort of feeling of loneliness, it was, you have to be strong for everybody else. And they were sort of explaining to me that if they showed that vulnerability, they would, the concern was that their employees would lose faith in them as a leader or in the company to be successful and jump ship. And there's also this feeling of sort of it goes back to tribal days, the fear of not belonging. And I think that all kind of got wrapped into this of loneliness quote I kept hearing. I think like you say, people do think about burnout striking people lower down in the organizations and mid level, mid tier. I don't think it's necessarily the case that they are suffering more than the leadership. I think it's just that they're more willing to say it. And like you say, who is checking in on the CEO and one of the ladies I interviewed for the article is called EM Stroud and she was a leadership coach and she was saying quite often the CEO she works with, they'll say to her like, actually it's been two years since anyone said to me, how are you? So I think that that really shocked me as quite surprising. I think the other thing that I learned about, I wasn't aware about before was the there's the motive. As motivation drivers go, there are two different motivation drivers. One is fear based and one is attraction based. And the fear based is fear based. Motivation driver is what's unhealthy and that's what burns you out because you're always striving for something more. You're always running away from what you're scared of. Whether that's a life of not being able to give your children what you want to or not having the house you want or not being able to get your car collection that you've always dreamed of. And it's this fear like, of I don't want to do that. When you're motivated by fear, that's what, it's okay as a short term coping mechanism, but when you use that as a long term motivation driver, that's when you get burnt out. And I wasn't aware of that. That's something I sort of learned in all my research.

That's really interesting because I think there are a lot of people and again, we're so driven as a society to want more, to go for the goals. Every time we see something online, it's how to set goals and how to do this and how to do that and how to make next year the best year of your life. And all of it focuses the things that you want. And it's interesting because I think a lot of people would see that as motivation. But actually it's that fear of the lack of not having the thought of not having the car, the house, that's what gets you up in the morning. And actually as you said, when you're constantly living in fear, that has A sell by day as because you cannot continuously live in fear. And it's interesting, I saw something which a while ago, maybe four or five years ago, I thought was quite funny. And now I look back and I'm like, actually, it's so true. It was a meme that said, when you're an adult, you don't need to set an alarm because your anxieties will wake you up in the morning. And at the time I was like, oh God, that's so true. Becoming an adult. And now I think back and I think, how many people lie in bed before their alarm goes off? Just lying there thinking, okay, another day rather than being excited and wanting to get up, it's okay. Another day of chasing the things that I think I should want or going after the things I think I should want. And I think a lot of it comes back down to what society makes us think we want. The house, the mortgage, you know, the business, the promotion, the six figure salary, the schools, whatever it is that we've seen as a society that we believe is important. And a lot of people that I speak to, especially a lot of my clients, I'll say to them, what is it that you really want? And they'll say, I want to be comfortable, I want to be happy. And a lot of the time they sort of define that happiness and being comfortable as having a lovely home and having the cars and being able to do all of these things. But actually at the root of it, they want a feeling which is to feel safe. And fundamentally it's, I want the house. Why? Because I want the house that's mine and that I feel safe in. Yes, it's nice to have an incredible home, but actually you want a feeling rather than a tangible thing. And it's similar when, you know, we sort of talk about this midlife crisis where people get the sports cars. It's not the fact that people want the sports cars, it's that feeling that it gives them of I'm young, I'm trendy, this feels really cool, I do something a little bit crazy. It's that feeling that they're chasing rather than the actual tangible thing. But unfortunately, that's how it manifests in society that says, stay young, stay cool, get a sports car, you'll feel great. And actually, when we take it to the root, it's the feeling rather than the thing rather than the actual tangible thing that people want.

Yeah, totally. And I think, well, marketeers have got a lot to answer for when it comes to that, because, I mean, that's what they make a living off of trying to sort of sell the dream. But I think when you just an analogy to explain the fear based thing, like if you think about you're in a jungle and you see a lion or something and your instinct or fear based instinct is to run. And actually that's what keeps you alive at the beginning because that I'm so scared if I don't run as fast I can possibly run, I'm about to get eaten by a lion. That's a survival instinct. And that's okay for the short term but if you think about it, if that line keeps chasing you and you have to run and run and run, you can't, you can't sustain it, you can't keep it up. So that's kind of how you can explain the whole fear can only keep you safe for that first very, very quick survival instinct. Anything longer term, you cannot use fear as a motivator. You have to switch into the attract motivation to sustain yourself, your mental health, your way of living.

And how does that attract? Look for anyone listening, how would you describe moving from that fear to attract?

That's a really good question. I think actually you kind of summarize that in how you, in what you were just saying there about it is aspirational based. But I think it's about thinking about what you actually need versus what you want. And like you say you need comfort of having a roof over your head. But do you need, you know, huge kitchen with wine fridges and a cellar and under house car park? No, you don't. They're just the nice to have. So I think it comes back to what do you actually need? What's actually really important. And I think that's that came out a lot in this burnout article. People saying to them what burnout means is the things that shouldn't be important suddenly become your whole world take over your life and then the things that actually are important, you completely drop in it. It's a complete flipping of what's actually important in your, in your brain. And so many people were saying to me like anger was a huge side effect of burnout. And they would keep it together during the day at work. They could feel it building and building as they got more stress, these feelings of anger and they managed to keep that lid on. It's like shaking up a Pepsi bottle, you know, all day at work you're shaking it up, you're keeping the lid on it. And then as soon as they get home to the relationships that really matter. To wives, husband, partners, whatever. That lid from the Pepsi comes off, it's unscrewed and it explodes. And actually their anger was being taken out in the environment that it really shouldn't be, and on the relationships that are really, really important and what matters. So it's, it's this flipping of a big thing. Small things suddenly feeling huge and then the bigger things getting lost.

Yeah. And I actually saw a really good analogy similar to that on a therapist social media, where it was a Corona bottle and she was shaking it, she was shaking it, shaking it, and all the feelings. And then suddenly a really small thing came along and hit it on top. And the smallest thing, as you said, that shouldn't usually trigger someone catastrophized everything and all the beer came out and it went crazy. And actually I think to the other person going, wait, how did this really tiny thing. But actually it's everything that's underneath that for so long. And it kind of goes back to what we said around being that CEO that in the workplace or, you know, in a leadership position where you cannot show the emotions, you cannot show the real you. You have to be the CEO that has everything together, or the business owner that has everything together. And as soon as you get home and feel safe, that's when it comes off. And that's when, you know, in the safe environment, it's okay to let loose. But unfortunately it impacts the people who actually have no idea what is actually going on at work. And I've seen it as you've probably seen it time and time again, where on the surface, if you asked any of the employees or anyone else in the business, how's the CEO? They'd say they're the most relaxed person. They're so happy and behind closed doors in their own time, they're struggling. They either have suicidal thoughts, they're using drugs and alcohol to cope, their anger is absolutely through the roof, you know, whatever it is. And so it's almost this kind of putting on that mask and sort of needing to be that person in the day. And then actually when they're feeling safe at home, those people are unfortunately getting the brunt of what's really going on inside.

Exactly. And I think that's where ego depletion comes in. And this is something again, I learned about when I was researching this article. And ego depletion is a theory that willpower is connected to a limited reserve of mental energy. And once you run out of energy, you're way more likely as a person to lose self control. So if all that energy, that mental energy is being used up at work, you're getting burnt out with the stress that's happening in your day job, you run out of that energy. And then when you take yourself out of that situation, you're back home again.

You lose.

You lose the self control which enables you to sort of live a happy and healthy life and have happy and healthy relationships. So that concept of ego depletion really hit home for me as well. You know, it's a really simple, really simple theory, but it makes total sense.

And I think that the way the world is changing now, we are more open to talking about things and even recording podcasts like this or writing articles like the one that you did. I think it's so powerful because it kind of gives people that, okay, I'm not alone, actually. I'm not crazy. This is what I've been doing. And there are solutions for what I need to be doing. And I think even opening up the conversation is so amazing because it never used to feel safe to do so. So it's incredible to be able to have these conversations now. I guess I'd love to hear around your business why you joined. We kind of spoke a little bit around how you joined the business before we started recording. But why did you join the business? What was it for you that thought, this is what I want to be doing?

Yeah, it's a good question because it's. It's an interesting move, I think, from what I've been doing. I think what the company stood for really resonated with me. So to give you a bit of background on the business. So Assured has been founded to change what today has been quite a volatile and tumultuous nature of cyber insurance. It's still relatively immature, and because of that, a lot of mistakes have been made, and I've reported on a lot of those mistakes in my last job. But the purpose of Assured, and genuinely the mission, is to drive meaningful change and evolution in that space. Like I said, we're the only UK insurance broker that exclusively focus on cyber and that allows us to be experts. And I've found that really attractive. And I think the company is, yes, we're a cyber insurance brokerage, but we believe that that policy is only just a part of what's important. Although obviously getting it to actually pay out is part of, you know, it's the most important things. When organizations invest in insurance, they want it to pay out. But we also are really committed to sort of inspiring confidence and resilience in those executives in the senior leaders. And that all stems from knowledge. So that's where I come in. So I was sort of bought in to create the type of that CEOs want to engage with. And our belief is that that's not technical, it's free of acronyms, it's business strategy focused, it's people focused and it cuts through all of that techie jargon. And actually that's what I'm really passionate about, that sort of bridging the gap between cyber risk in the business between CEOs and CISOs and just sort of bringing real talk. And that's the type of journalism that I like doing. So I've been a tech journalist for 16 years. But if you read back through my any of my work, you realize I'm not really a tech journalist. I'm a people journalist. I tell stories, I interview people. I kind of try and get beneath the skin and I'm literally obsessed with the human side of cyber and the psychology and diversity and all of those topics. And this assured mission just completely correlates with everything that I'm passionate about. So here I am.

I love that. And yeah, as you said, it's an interesting, interesting. It's an interesting and different move because you're sort of on the other side now. And it's interesting what you said around kind of reporting on a lot of the mistakes and the things that have been made actually being able to report on them but now actually be part of the change that's such sort of a real sort of 180 being able to be part of the solution rather than just kind of reporting on the things that have been happening. How did you find shifting from that to now kind of being a founder of a business that is so forward thinking and yeah, really creates I think something so different as, you know, insurance a lot of the time is seen not that attractive, not that fun. But actually the articles and the content that you guys have been producing, as you said, is really digestible. And for someone like myself who doesn't know much about cybersecurity, it lands with me actually. Someone who may not be sort of an initial target audience. How have you found that shift?

Yeah, and I really appreciate your feedback, so thank you. The shift's been easier than I thought. I think actually the crux of it is I'm more in control of the content and the editorial agenda now than I was probably Infosecurity magazine. So even as the editorial director we were still at the mercy of, we were advertiser driven. So we were still having to think about the, the digital revenue model for the magazine and making sure that, you know, we were writing about the things that were going to, going to drive that revenue. Now I'm in this sort of privileged position where we're backed by the cyber insurance company, which means I have complete freedom to create the content that I think CEOs want to read and that just so happens and be written in a way that I like writing it. So it just so happens to completely align with what I'm passionate about. So I think once I got my head around the fact that, well, actually I'm going to have more control over the editorial agenda, I'm going to be able to interview the types of people, those really colorful, incredible minds that drive what I do, be able to tell their stories. I mean, I'm a literature graduate so I'm completely in love with storytelling. So once I've got my head around all of that and I've actually got into the role and started creating the content, doing the interviews, pushing it out, seeing the feedback and the reaction from industry, it's just been so wonderful. So absolutely no regrets, you know, big change, big difference for me. But I'm genuinely, really loving it.

I absolutely love hearing people who are so passionate about what they do because unfortunately we see so many people just saying, oh, it's just a job. I really don't love it, but it's fine, it pays the bills. And when you're talking about it, you can genuinely see like passion and how happy you are. And I do. It's amazing to see that and actually see that there are things out there that when you follow what you're meant to be doing, it becomes, oh my God, this is so what I'm meant to be doing. Now. How do you, how do you find obviously being a woman in this space, as we kind of spoke about, I mean, it seems like quite a male dominated space. How is it being a woman found being a co founder of like, you know, a great business? How do you find that?

Yeah, I mean, I've had an unwaveringly positive experience as a woman in technology. I've worked my way up the ladder. I've been promoted whilst I've been on maternity leave. I mean, I've been given the flexibility in my working patterns to succeed as a working mum, both by my current employer and my past employer. So I've been incredibly privileged. But that said, I'm not naive enough to think that this is just how it is. And I've spoken to so Many women. I've interviewed so many women over the past 16 years to know that there's a huge amount of pain points still out there. There are huge varying perceptions from different people and the different stories they tell. But discrimination is very much still apparent in lots of sort of dark recesses of this industry. And there are stories of harassment, bias, abuse and obviously pay gaps. They're still rife. So I'm not naive. I know that my positive experience doesn't necessarily reflect everyone else's. And I set up a women in cybersecurity networking forum, actually when I was at Infosecurity magazine, to give women in the industry a forum in which they can network, they can share their stories, they can give each other advice, they can feel inspired. And the gender gap is improving. Since I've been working in the sector, we are making a positive difference, but there's still a long way to go. And I think from my perspective, I feel like if I can contribute in any way, it's by sharing the stories. Because what girls need in STEM in schools, what women as they come into the industry as newbies need, is role models. And if they can read about the stories of really successful women that I write about and interview, it gives them, you know, it's that if you see someone else that looks like you doing what you want to do, it's inspirational. So what I can contribute is sort of bringing women together in those sort of communities and those networking forums, but also just continuing to tell the story and give women a platform because I think that is what's going to make or is going to contribute to making a difference anyway.

Absolutely. And I think that, as you said, seeing other people who look like you, sound like you, whatever it's for, whatever you relate to doing what you want to do, that's the most inspiring thing. And I think that that's something that we didn't see for such a long time where, you know, we were told, you know, you can do whatever you want, you can be whatever you want. But then you look at these big companies and you look at all of the leadership team, the C suite, the non executive directors, and they all look exactly the same and have the same upbringing, look the same, sound the same, all the same age. And then you sort of think, how am I meant to sort of wiggle my way in and become someone in that level? And it's really interesting to see now actually more women going, you know what? I want to be that role model for women to show you can have children, you can have this, you can not have that, you can be this, you can be that, whatever it is and say, actually I've been able to do it and almost giving the next generation that permission slip to say I can do it and therefore you can do it. Is it going to be easy? No. Do you have to work hard? Yes, absolutely. And do you have to find something that you're super passionate about and want to spend time and energy on? Yes. But if you want to do it, it is absolutely possible to do that. And I think really leading from the front and having those role models is really changing a lot for the next generation, which I think is absolutely incredible.

Yeah, I totally agree, I totally agree with everything you've just said. And you know, it's our prerogative to do that, but it's also our responsibility, I think, as journalists in the industry to contribute to that by, by shining a spotlight on all types of people. And actually just gender diversity is only one part of this puzzle. And I think I became increasingly passionate about all the other elements of diversity in cyber and tech as well. You know, age diversity is something recently that we've started to focus on. We've looked at neurodiversity, we've looked at cultural, you know, eco, socio economical backgrounds, all different types, race, everything. And it's not just about being diverse for the sake of diversity to sort of tick that box. It's about the fact that diversity genuinely makes our work better, makes our companies better, it makes our output better. There's so much research done on diverse organizations having higher profits than those that don't have diversity. So it's not just about doing it because it's the right thing to do. It's about doing it because it makes it us better as people, as businesses, as organizations.

No, absolutely. And it's really, it has been really interesting to see a lot of companies investing either in diversity managers or trying to create a better culture. And I think we go back to culture used to just be in a business, you know, a few nights out and work things. And actually I think it's changed. I think it's changed so much of, you know, if you ask your employees or team or what, whoever it is, what culture means, it's so different to what I think even pre pandemic, what it used to be. And I think having that diversity as well of people. I think for me, in every single company I've worked in, I've learned so much from, yes, the leadership teams in the C suite, but I've also learned so Much from my counterparts of different. Different ways of working and understanding their culture and understanding certain things that they do better because their brain works very differently to mine. So it's really been interesting to understand and learn from others around me, not just those that we kind of deem separate suite and sort of executive director level. Yeah, totally.

And that culture and everything really matters. In fact, you know, you asked me why jumped across to this. The reason I took this job and decided to change my career path was because. Because of the people. You know, my co founders, Henry and Ed, they convinced me to come across because I wanted to work with people like them. And they, Their beliefs and their values align with mine and they have share the same passions that I do for actually making a difference to people, making a difference in the cy world and, and culture is.

It's.

We spend more time with our colleagues than we do our own families. So it's really important to get it right. And I think diversity just contributes into that, doesn't it? Into into culture. We have better cultures when we have better diversity.

Yeah, absolutely. And as I said, having known Ed, Ed was in the year above me at school. And having known him, I know his charm of being able to convince someone to do something, which is. Which is great. And yeah, as you said, it's amazing to be able to be part of a team that, you know is driving innovation forward. But also, as you said, every day when you're in the office, you're speaking to them, you feel inspired, you feel passionate, you're learning something new every single day from those around you. So I think it's amazing to really be. To be a part of a team that's kind of having this impact as well.

Totally. Yeah, definitely.

So to wrap up, what would be your one big piece of advice to anyone that's listening right now?

Oh, do you mean generally or do you mean around the burnout piece?

Let's go around the burnout piece. I think specifically, I think that would be useful.

Okay. I think. Oh, can I can. I'm going to go with two. I'm going to be really cheap.

No, go for it. Pick as many as you need.

So I think that the first one would be to be vulnerable. So talk. I know it's so cliche and everybody says it, but what I've learned from doing this research is that so many people feel the same. So this whole quote that this is the loneliest job on the planet, 12 different CEOs said that to me. They're all feeling the same thing. So talk to each other, create these networks where you are able to be vulnerable, where you're able to share successes and challenges. I think that's really important because when you don't feel alone, you feel like you're part of a tribe, you're way more likely to find comfort and happiness. And then secondly, I think, and this, you can apply this to anything in life. It's much more bigger picture piece of advice. But your life is your responsibility and nobody else's. So I think especially when it comes to burnout, you can take control of your own destiny by being responsible for your own energy, your own happiness, your own career, your own choices. And once you kind of realize that you are in the driving seat, you're in control and it's your responsibility, nobody else's, then you can try and, you know, start making, putting in place healthy mechanisms, start making the right decisions which will make you healthier and ultimately happier.

I absolutely love that one. That last one resonates so much and it's such a reminder that we all need it. So easy to say, well, someone else did this and I don't like this and they've done this. But actually fundamentally, it comes down to us being so responsible for our own own, for our own life. But thank you so much. Those two pieces advice are absolutely amazing. And thank you so much for coming on and being so honest and open and vulnerable and honestly you shared even for me, as I said, every time I interview people, I learn so much that I don't know. So thank you so much for coming on. I absolutely love speaking with you.

Oh, thank you, Emma. It's been, I've really enjoyed it and it's, you know, it's all just really interesting topics and stuff, isn't it? So I've loved our conversation. Thank you you for having me.

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