Ep 20: In conversation with Rachel Clarkson RD, MSc, PGDip, BSc

Welcome to the All Is Wellness Podcast with me, Emma Naylor. Join us in open and honest conversations with wellness professionals and industry experts.

Welcome back to the All As Wellness Podcast. This week's guest is Rachel Clarkson, a board certified specialist dietitian, best known as the DNA dietitian.

With a Harley street address, Rachel empowers.

Her patients to eat according to their genes using her method, the DNA Way. She currently sits on the scientific advisory board of a number of health apps and guest lectures for St. Mary's University in London. Rachel is passionate about science communication and has been featured in BBC Future, the Guardian, and Men's Health. Rachel, thank you so much for sitting down and recording this podcast with me.

Hi, Emma, thanks so much for having me.

I am so excited to sit down, have this conversation with you. Obviously, we got introduced by our lovely friend Yasmin, and I sort of looked into what you were doing and I think what you're doing is amazing. And it was something that was so new to me and something that I had kind of no idea about, really. So it would be great if you could sort of explain to our listeners a little bit more about what, what it is that you do as the DNA dietitian, how you kind of became that and why you started what it is that you're doing.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think in a nutshell, what I do is help people understand how they really should be eating based upon their body's true requirements. So almost taking that guessing game out of what they should be eating, how they should be living, so that things kind of move on from a diet to a new way of living that is in accordance with their true requirements. So I specialize in DNA, as you probably imagined with the name, and that's from many years at university, understanding the human body at a sort of molecular and biochemical level. I was super interested in how our lifestyle actually altered our expression of our genes and therefore impacted our health or sort of progression of disease in the future. And what was interesting was we know the sort of basics around how we can keep our sort of human body healthy, keep our genetics healthy, keep epigenetics kind of ticking over in the right direction, you know, sleeping more, stress management, thinking about healthy eating patterns and moving more. But that's a bit basic and I think people are a little bit tired of the sort of general dietary recommendations according to that. So that's when nutrigenomics, which is a whole new science over the last sort of 15 years, really caught my attention. And this is a way of understanding how certain Genetic variants in the human body alter the way that someone actually responds to the nutrients that they consume in the food, the sort of beverages or supplements that they consume. So we're able to put sort of really, really specific dietary recommendations together based upon their true genetic makeup. So super exciting. I work with clients one to one. I work in the corporate setting. I'm also developing an amazing meal delivery service based upon dn. So, yeah, it's all going on. It's a great area of science to.

Be in meal delivery. That's what really just caught my ear. That's exactly what I. I think it's so interesting because, as you said, we're often told what we should and shouldn't be putting into our bodies, and it is very much a guessing game. And I think that every time we kind of look online or anything that's in the media, it's like, don't eat carbs, eat carbs, don't eat too much of this, don't do this, don't do that. And I think it's such a minefield to really, really understand what it is that we actually should be eating and what's good for our bodies. Because, you know, I'm the kind of person who knows what I think. I know what my body likes and my boyfriend, his food is very, very different. We're on completely different food schedules. If I don't eat for like three hours because of my low blood sugar, I shake. He can go a day without eating. And it's often that I think we're always so consumed with what we should be doing rather than really, really listening to ourselves. Why did you kind of want to get into this field? Was it something that you went through? Was it something that you felt needed to be looked at? Why? Looking at DNA in terms of a diet?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I do get asked a lot, you know, as a registered dietitian, this is definitely a field of science that we are not taught at university level. We're not taught it during our clinical platele in the hospitals. It's really one of those sort of black sheep industries that does not sit sort of in the typical way of working of a registered dietitian. And I think it came from a place of working in the nhs, really enjoying the sort of patient interaction, but understanding that people weren't actually that motivated to make a huge change because the recommendations were based around general dietary recommendations, you know, these guidelines that are given by the government, which, you know, is amazing that we have the science to educate the general population at a public health level. But unfortunately, people don't always respond to that dietary recommendation based upon an average. Because we're not an average. We are individuals. We all respond very differently to food. As you just mentioned, you know, you and your partner have completely different requirements, even with, you know, how often you need to eat. But that's what really caught my eye. And I knew that I had a background in genetics from studying biomedical science at university for my undergraduate, and I just thought, you know what? I've also just published a paper in epigenetics, thinking about nutrition and genetics. Why am I not using this amazing field to my advantage, to be able to give people personalized dietary recommendations that they will be motivated to follow, and it will actually lead to a clinical outcome that they desire, which, whether that be, you know, fat loss, thinking about how to improve their heart health, their blood pressure, their cholesterol, their energy levels, libido, you name it, we can do it. And it's just a really powerful field.

And it's definitely something that, as you said, it's not really looked into that much. Like, when I came across what you were doing, I was like, what is this? This looks amazing, but I've never. I've never really seen it. And I think really exploring, you know, what works for us and what doesn't is something that people are doing so much more now. It's been really interesting to see during lockdown and during COVID there was kind of this fluctuation of everyone went very, very healthy at first, and then everyone. Well, me kind of lost that momentum. And I think one of the things was I didn't really know what I should be and shouldn't be doing because I was sitting at home a lot more. I wasn't moving as much. I definitely felt that difference with, you know, used to run for the tube or, like, go on a walk on my lunch break. So there was definitely a kind of change in my exercise, which definitely led to the kind of massive change in my food. How do you think Covid has affected people in terms of what we're putting in our bodies and how we're kind of viewing our health?

Yeah, I think Covid has been a really tricky one because in itself, it's caused, you know, millions of people to have a completely different lifestyle pattern, a working situation, a mental health situation that maybe they hadn't dealt with before. And so I think that people's eating patterns are completely different. You've got one side of the sort of coin where people. People are Eating a lot more convenience foods, maybe eating for sort of those hedonic effects of feeling better in themselves because they're stressed or upset. Maybe they are going through financial difficulties so they're less likely to be able to afford the healthy food, and that's causing really negative health impacts. And then you've got the other side of the coin where people are really taking their health by their horns and really trying just about everything to be as healthy as possible. So you've got completely two different spectrums here. And just in my opinion, I think that the people who've come to me for advice during COVID are that much more motivated to make a change because they're aware that poor health increases their risk of the severity of the disease. And, yeah, I just think it's a time for people to make a positive change. But that being said, we can't ignore the fact that change doesn't always happen when people are in the right headspace or, you know, other state of mind because of how Covid has really hit.

I think that changes exactly as you said. It's when you're kind of from the outside looking in, it's so easy to look back and say, I wish I'd made this change. Then I wish I'd done this. Why didn't I do that? And I think what's quite interesting from what I've seen, as you said, is exactly, there are some people who know I have to put my health first. After the last year and a half, people have really realized the health is the most important thing in our life. And I think that it's great to see how people have really taken things into their own hands and going, actually, I cannot put myself at risk for being unwell. I have to be at the peak of my health to try and give myself the best chance. If I do, you know, not just get Covid, but get a flu or get a stomach bug or whatever it is, these things that go round every year that we always have to really give ourselves kind of the best fighting chance to make sure that we can kind of fight these things off as easy as possible. And I'm the first to admit that my eating towards the end of lockdown was Deliveroo and Uber eats and junk food. There was a part of me that said, when Covid is over, I'll go back to the gym. When Covid is over, I'll be healthy again. And what I realized is, whether it's Covid, whether it's the flu, there's always going to be other things and I have to be as healthy as I possibly can, regardless of kind of what's going on in the outside world. So, I mean, it would be great to hear from you. For anyone who's kind of listening, if people are coming out going, I'm the most unhealthy I've ever been. How do I kind of get back? I've definitely fallen off the wagon. What would be your kind of advice for someone who's looking to kind of kick start their healthy journey again and really get themselves feeling great again after Covid?

Yeah, absolutely. I think the idea of kickstarting is something that I really like, but it's not about kickstarting a diet. It's about kickstarting a new lifestyle and really being honest with yourself around the changes that you're willing to make. Are they changes that you can sustain over a long period of time? If not, don't bother or just be a little bit more flexible with these changes. Don't be so strict with yourself because what we want is long term health changes, not a short term quick fix which is going to bounce back as fast as you started. But I think that you brought something up quite interesting around the idea of the psychological falling off the wagon you just mentioned. And that really is around the importance of sort of behavioral techniques and psychological techniques that come along with trying to start a new way of living when it comes to your wellness. Because there's one thing figuring out exactly what you should be eating when it comes to using DNA to personalize things. And you're actually way more motivated to make these changes in doing so because you know that they're true to you. But then there's the sort of psychological barriers that come with trying to make any sort of change to your diet. So you know, anyone who is wanting to move forward with a new diet, a new lifestyle, however that may be just take some time to do some of the inner work around, you know, what's going on in your mind when you are eating. You know, maybe start a food journal where you're not just thinking about what you're eating, but why you're eating. And this sort of inquiry is something that I do 5050 formula. 50% of the time we talk about food that we need to be eating for these health changes that people desire. And then 50% of the time we're doing brain training, like really, really deep work into changing one's behavior. And that's key to success, that's key to change.

I think something I probably hadn't realized as much is the kind of psychological relationship with food. And I guess there's always that thing where, you know, when someone talks about going through a breakup, what do you do? You get the ice cream, you get the chocolate, and you kind of eat your feelings. And that's all sort of very seen as kind of like a joke, but actually it's interesting. And you know, when we go through great times of sadness, a lot of people do lose weight and don't eat. And it's very interesting to see that psychological pattern between how we eat and what's actually going on. And I think that this time, over the last year and a half, boredom has massively played a big part in the junk food. You know, if I was away, not working from my actual physical home, I guarantee my snacking would not be as much as it was. But it's very much that boredom of I have a break, I'm a little bit bored, I can't do anything. And it is that kind of behavior that I definitely feel. I feel myself doing it and I know I'm doing it and I'm thinking, am I actually hungry or am I bored? But at that moment in time, I just want to have a snack. It's nothing. Nothing else is going to kind of stop me from doing that. How do you think that when people really, really put their health first, if someone was to work with you, how do you see the changes and how do you think that kind of shows up not just in how they look, but how do you kind of see that changes them as a person when they're eating right way for their body?

So I think that the sort of changes that one may see within themselves once they start eating the DNA way would really come from a place of how they feel around food, their relationship with food. Hopefully it's much more relaxed because like I said, we're taking the guesswork out of what we should be eating. But then, you know, the psychological and behavioral patterns are something that people really get breakthroughs with. You know, this is. I'm talking about if we're working together for three to six months, you know, that regular sort of touch points that allows us for that sort of inner work regarding relationships with food. And they're able to identify, you know, if they are hungry or if they're, you know, emotionally hungry or if they're hungry just for the food and actually allow themselves to eat for any one of those hungers with no guilt and therefore no restriction and therefore no binging. And, you know, I use the word binging quite lightly. I'm not talking about binge eating disorder, but you know, the feeling of, you know, I've eaten too much so then, oh, I feel guilty or then I'm going to restrict and then, you know, I'm craving again and then I'm going to eat it all and that sort of thing. So I think that that's also a massive breakthrough for people once they understand exactly how they should be eating and do the sort of brain training as well. And obviously you kind of, you know, body composition and energy and all the other things that we talked about, whether that be sleep or being able to perform better when they're working out, that, you know, there's countless things that people sort of come out with as being improvements in their health, which is really quite nice.

It's so interesting to hear all the other factors that really play such a big part in making us actually feel good because I think we often, you know, I can speak for myself, go through these stages where I'll say I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go to the gym more and I'm getting up at 5 o' clock in the morning and I'm restricting food and I think I'm gonna feel really good. But I miss out all the other parts. I miss out on sleeping enough, I miss out on resting enough. And it's kind of that pattern, you know, that really dangerous pattern where it's like not enough sleep, not enough food, too much working out. And it's really easy to get, as you said, kind of in that. Because often we read so much, we read so much online about these kind of quick fix diets and we read about these really quick fix health, quick fix healthy things of if you detox on water for three days, it's going to be amazing. And I'm sure there's some great, some great kind of detoxes that you can do. But as you've always said out throughout this kind of whole podcast and obviously your whole ethos is everyone is completely different and there's very much this kind of one size fits all and everyone's going to get the same results and everyone's going to feel great. And the truth of the matter is we kind of set ourselves up to fail by doing that because it's not always going to work and it's not going to always be the best for us. But I think a lot of people really don't see the benefit of really digging, digging deep into what works for them because it is that minefield that as soon as you open it, there's just a million different conflicting issues, a million different conflicting diets. And I think it can feel so overwhelming. And I've definitely felt overwhelmed with what I should and shouldn't be doing. And every woman I've ever spoken to has been on at least like, I don't know, it's like seven diets in their life or something. And every Monday that comes it, I'll start this diet and I'll be healthy from Monday. And it's kind of that self sabotage thing where we set ourselves up to fail. Because how many Mondays have we said I'm going to go on a diet? And I love what you said about it's kind of a shift in lifestyle. It's not a diet, it's a whole lifestyle shift. And I think that even right now I'm sitting here going, emma, you need to shift the lifestyle. It's not what you're just eating, it's the lifestyle. Now that lockdown is coming out, things are opening up more. You have been living a certain lifestyle for a year and a half and that's fine. But now it's time to shift it and really start going back and adding those things in again that make me feel good, that make me feel really, really healthy. And I know what they are. I just need to implement them.

Like the sleeping, like the stress management, like thinking about how much you're actually working out and how much you're eating. Absolutely. And you know what you talked about before, about the snacking and the hunger and all of these. Yes, boredom and emotions definitely play a part. But genetics also has a big part to play in it as well. So, you know, when we do the genetic test, we can identify if you have certain variations of genes that might actually put you at increased risk of being susceptible to increased hunger or wanting to snack in between meals, or, you know, having sugar cravings. These are all aha, moment of oh, it's my genes. I can be a little bit kinder to myself, but I can also put a plan into place so that I don't feel like I'm ever going to fall off that wagon, you know, and start Monday, I can just start at the next meal. You know, I've eaten a mindful indulgence. That was great. Let's just eat something healthy for our next meal. And I think that that's a big part of really. You know, you mentioned women being on diets. Let's be honest, most women are on diets to improve their body compos. And so Again, it's about, oh, wow, okay, my body actually needs this amount of protein or increasing this amount of fat. And thinking about this with my fiber and my carbs and, oh, I was working out this many times a week because I thought that it was going.

To lead to weight loss and fat.

Loss, when actually I have this gene which means I should be doing X or. Oh, I didn't realize I had this issue with my metabolism, my resting metabolic rate, and I needed to be a little bit more careful with my energy deficit. You know, it's just having the answers that allows yourselves to be. To be a little bit kinder in the moment, you know, when we're so hard on ourselves as women and men. But, you know, I imagine that there's many women also listening out there.

Yeah, I think it is that kind of be kinder to ourselves. You're right. We're often. If we were to ask women, men, whoever, why you want to diet, I think the first answer would be to lose weight. It wouldn't be to feel better. It wouldn't be because I know it's better for me, it would be to lose weight. And I'm the first to put my hands up and say that's why I would go on a diet. It would be for the aesthetics to be that bikini body, whatever that even means, ready for a holiday. And that's another thing. We have these quick blitz bikini body diets, and we all know that they don't work because we've all done them a week before we've gone on holiday when we panic diet and we think that we need to look a certain way. And actually, as I'm getting older, as I'm eating better, I'm realizing, great, it has an effect on how I look. And yes, during COVID I have put weight on, but actually I realized my body's got me through a pandemic. It's not the end of the world. And as you said, I don't have to wait till the end of the year to start a new year. New me on the 1st of January, I can start the next meal healthy. And if I do indulge and I'm eating something that's great, that's fine too. But it's that mental shift that I think so many of us really, really need to understand. And exactly as you said, that DNA that goes, actually there is something in your DNA that's making you X, that's making you Y. And kind of having that understanding almost makes us think, great. It's not just me Going crazy, thinking, I want to eat all the time. There actually is something in my DNA and I think it's so important for us to really, really recognize that and understand that.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you mentioned around the, you know, idea of needing to lose weight and thinking about all of the.

Other things that come when you're feeling.

Down about your weight. Like you said, not sleeping great, all of these other lifestyle factors. And when you actually look at yourself deeper, I'm talking, you know, DNA with.

You know, a saliva sample, but also.

A blood test to identify where you are in the moment. Even though you're wanting to just lose weight, you may actually, actually find out that you're deficient in many nutrients that actually support your overall health and wellbeing and performance in the moment and your body's ability to function correctly. So again, figuring out what you need more of or less of, using power of DNA can also correct those nutrient imbalances that, you know, are making you.

Feel pretty crappy, you know. And also thinking about health at a.

Deeper level, you know, is your cholesterol balanced? Is your blood sugar control good. Thinking about disease in the future, thinking about inflammation within the body, we probably want to put steps into place now.

So we don't have a terrible time in the future. The aim, I believe, of any sort of healthy eating is to actually live longer and healthier because we don't just want to live longer with chronic disease, we want to prevent that in the future. And I think, you know, I wish that more people of our generation and the younger generation even would not just think about body image. Because as much as it is important, it's really about health at a deeper level.

I think that's just so important to hear that, especially from someone who works in this industry. I think it's so vital to really, really understand that you can look the best and you can think that you look the best, but it's really inside in the long term. And I think a lot of us don't really realize, you know, when you're, you know, I'm approaching 30. And they definitely say as you get to 30, it's harder to lose weight. And it absolutely is. When you're 18, you diet for a week and it literally falls off you, you like, okay, that's fine. You know, as now as you kind of get older, you definitely see you have to, you have to be really careful with what you eat. And I think the long term effects when you're younger, you just don't ever think and you know, this is something that I've been going through with my skin. For example, my dermatologist said, no more sun. And she said, do you wear factor 50 every day? And I was like, no. And she's like, from today you do. And there was a part of me that wanted to go, I wish I'd done this when I was younger, I want to turn back time. And she said to me, kind of like you said, you can't say I wish I'd done this or I'll start next week, start right now, go and put some sun cream on and move forward from this minute. And I think that's the thing is we always wait for the right moment to start eating healthy or start a new habit. And there's no time like the present to start something that we know is massively going to benefit our lives in the future. It's just having, it's just having that awakening moment and going, I need to do something now because I can't turn back time.

Yeah, that's so true. I mean that's such a great example, you know, spf, you all need it, we don't think about it until it's too late. So, you know you have a great dermatologist.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, amazing. Exactly.

You know, you can take the same for something like heart disease. Right, right. We all know someone who's had a heart attack or a stroke and it's not until the doctor says to that individual, you know, may take it upon themselves to start a new way of eating. But actually we're, you know, our, our arteries are potentially building up with plaque at a very young age. So it's about our diet over a very, very, very, very long period of time. And that's such a good an early age and thinking about how disease is a long progression of many years.

Yeah, I think that's definitely something that I'm hoping, I'm hoping the younger and next generation are really going to start. You know, as I look, I look back and I think my mom now always says to me, do you see why I used to say this stuff when you were a kid, like look after your teeth, look after your skin, eat healthy, study at school, all of these things. And I'm like, I wish I could go back and tell my 12 year old self, your mom's not lying, she's telling you the truth. But hopefully there's more information out there available and readily available in bite sized chunks that people can actually digest. And it's not a minefield that people go, actually I'm not going to open that because I have no idea kind of where I'm going or what I'm meant to be doing. So I'm hoping that conversations like this are really, really going to kind of be useful for people who are very, very kind of early on in their kind of healthy journey or are wanting to really, really get back on it after this kind of lockdown period.

Yeah, absolutely. And also the younger generation, let's give a little bit of credit to them. They are definitely healthier than, you know, other generations previous. I think that, you know what, in aspects of life for many, which is all well and good. I just really am very passionate about spreading the message of the importance of more of a personalized approach rather than a one size fits all. And I, you know, I really appreciate you taking the time to actually delve deep into the science as well and, you know, your interest in the, the scientific rigor as well. I think, you know, we've spoken about it before, not on the podcast, but regarding the market being very saturated around DNA testing and the ability for anybody to, you know, have a DNA test with no regulation at all and therefore no ramification for testing genes that, that don't have any science behind them or giving diet. Yeah, thanks so much for giving me sort of the opportunity to speak on this and I will hopefully continue to speak on it and continue to sort of advocate understanding whether you're a slow or a fast metabolizer of caffeine because you need to know which one you fit into because you don't want a heart attack in the future from enjoying your latte or cappuccino in the morning.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Rachel, I've had such a good time honestly speaking to you. I've loved, loved hearing all that you have to say. Just to finish off, what would be your one piece of advice to any of our listeners right now?

I would say my one piece of advice would be stop beating yourself up because the diet that you're on isn't working and works for your best friend. It's not your fault. It's just something that your body's obviously not responding to. And so just cultivate a little bit of kindness around that.

I love that. That is the best piece of advice and that's something that I will definitely be taking away. I love at the end of the podcast that I always ask my guests that I feel like I have this book now of like, I think it's now 20 pieces of like, little snippets of advice. So I'm probably going to collate those all and share them with everyone because I think they are amazing. But thank you so much for being our guest on this week's podcast. I've absolutely loved talking to you.

Amazing. Me too, Emma. It's been a really rich conversation full of hopefully not too scientific terms. But yeah, thanks again and you know, I'm really looking forward to supporting any of your listeners on their health journeys, whether that be weight loss or sort of general health improvement. I'm actually launching an online weight loss program all based around Eating the DNA Way next month, which will be super interesting. And I'm also teaching other practitioners how to use this science in their practice as well. So it's a busy time summer for me. And yeah, I'm really excited to see where this science takes me.

Well, thank you so much. I will pop your website below as well so everyone can pop over there. But but again, thank you so much for being our guest. We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast. Please leave us a review. If you did, head over to our Instagram page, all is WellnessPodcast and let us know what you think. We look forward to welcoming you next week for more open and honest conversations.