Episode 3: From Pain to Purpose: Empowering Relationships and Survivors of Domestic Abuse through coaching, with Jessica Clarke

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World of unconventional careers and the amazing people who have turned them into a reality. Sit back, relax, and let's dive into these incredible stories together. Welcome back to the Career Chronicles Podcast. I'm so excited to be introducing our guest this week who is the amazing Jessica Clark, a remarkable relationship coach who has turned her passion for helping others into a thriving career. From a young age, Jessica felt drawn to working with relationships, but wasn't quite sure how to pursue it. Her journey began by working with domestic abuse charities, where she identified gaps in support Systems. Back in 2019, she discovered coaching, and it was a revelation for her. Recognizing the opportunity to merge her expertise in relationships with coaching, she started to embark on her own path and pretty unconventional career. Today, she runs her own coaching business and has recently launched online memberships for both relationship and survivors of domestic abuse. Jessica's unique ability to transform her own pain into purpose is truly inspiring, and she takes immense pride in her remarkable journey. I am so excited to share this week's episode and I cannot wait to jump in.

Hi, Jessica. Welcome to the Career Chronicles podcast. I'm so excited to have you here.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

So, so excited. I know we've been talking for a while. We were actually saying before that we've been following each other on social media for a while, have never actually had the chance to, well, I say meet, but meet via a screen and really see each other in real time. So really, really exciting to have you here. I'd love for you to jump straight in, tell us a little bit more about you, who you are, and what you've been doing.

So I'm a certified relationship coach and NLP practitioner, so really, my kind of fundamental principles that I work with are that the relationship that we have with ourselves kind of sets the foundation for the relationship that we have with others. And lots of the time when people think about relationship coaching, they think of it exclusively to do with romantic relationships, which is usually what people come to me about. But then actually we open the whole can of worms and we talk about family dynamics. It's a huge one. Colleagues, friends, you name it, we probably cover it. At some point. So it's really looking at that whole relationship picture of someone's life, really looking at the relationship that they have with themselves first. So it's really exciting and really rewarding what I do. And I always feel like it's such a privilege to sit down with my clients and for them to be able to kind of share what's going on. I feel like it's such a big, It's a big kind of trust that someone puts in you. So it's nice to be able to do that.

Absolutely. And I think as you said, you sort of hit the nail on the head straight away with it is a privilege as a coach. I think being able to sit down with someone that's really trusting you with actually something that may have been there for such a long time, whether it's a complex romantic relationship, whether it's a parent relationship, actually building that trust with someone for them to open up to you is really special. And it's definitely, definitely not something that everyone can do. How did you get into relationship coaching?

Big question. So I started my career working in charities and I always knew that I wanted to work around domestic abuse charities. That's very much what I started off my career in. And I think I very quickly became aware that a lot of domestic abuse support ends when crisis ends. So it's almost as though, okay, you have exited an abusive relationship. And that's when a lot of charities just take back support. They're kind of like, okay, off you go, spread your wings, kind of get on with life. And actually I realized that's where a whole new chapter starts, a whole new kind of meeting support starts. In terms of what does it look like to rebuild your life? There's a very practical things in terms of like getting jobs, you know, managing divorces, things like that. But also particularly in terms of relationships is what does it look like to rebuild your self worth, what does it look like to start trusting someone again? All of those things which I think lots of charities just kind of leave a little bit behind. And so I always knew that's very much what I wanted to do. But the penny didn't really drop that I could a do it on my own and be used coaching. Until I worked for another organization which used coaching as one of its core principles on its programs. And I literally remember being so skeptical about coaching. I thought it was this kind of like American wishy washy, like woo woo thing. And then I remember sitting down in the first coaching session I ever had and I was just like, oh my gosh, this has the capacity to change my life. And that's when it finally clicked with me. I was like, I could do this and I can use this to help people. And so then of course it started the whole, okay, what does it look like to get qualifications and all that kind of thing. So it was very much a sort of, it felt, I mean, looking back it seems like it was really like made sense to get there. But at the time I was a bit like, I don't know where this is going, it's all a bit confusing. And I very much started my business sort of working one to one with clients and doing my qualification during COVID which has its whole other kind of complexities as well. But, you know, so I've been running my business for the last three years now and it's very much changed and it's evolved, as I'm sure you know. So that's kind of what's led me at this point.

Amazing. And it's so interesting to hear how, you know, the charities are doing the work that they can. You saw an opportunity and I think that's a lot of, that's a lot of the time is when we see these opportunities. Exactly. As you said, Covid has its real complexities and I think there's a lot of people that I speak to that, you know, had such a hard time during COVID of course, with all of the deaths and everything going on and the lockdowns and the mental health. But I also believe that there are a lot of people that saw opportunity in, you know, being locked down at home and educating themselves and upskilling themselves and really being able to use this time, which I don't think we'll ever have again. Hopefully sort of a time period like that where we have so much time and you know, the sort of disposable income that we were sort of used to spending on dinners or drinks or transport or whatever. It was actually being able to invest that into ourselves in the likes of coaching programs and NLP and online courses and actually coaches for ourselves as well. So it was really interesting to see how a lot of people really grew during the pandemic in a time that was very, very difficult for so many. How do you think your own personal experiences in life have led you to feeling like you can be the person that can sort of support these, these women, men, whoever it is, in your sort of coaching practice?

It's really interesting actually just to kind of go back to kind of that Covid point initially was Someone said to me at the beginning of COVID this is going to be the real tester, because we all use the excuse about projects, things we want to do. Oh, I don't have the time right now. And actually, it was really interesting to see when people had all the time in the world, how many people actually took the opportunities and how many people came out of COVID exactly the same person. And I found that so fascinating because I'm sure, you know, like me, you went and, like, did learning projects, all of that, and you kept really busy. But I have some friends who literally, they just like, oh, I just love, like, watching Netflix. And, you know, that's how they spent their Covid time. And it's not to say one's better than the other. Of course, we all did what we needed to. But it's interesting, that excuse of I don't have time to start this thing, I've always wanted to wasn't actually the legitimate excuse. Many people thought so.

Absolutely.

I just found that interesting.

And just to kind of piggyback on that point, so many clients that I'm speaking to now that Covid is over. And actually, I think it's been declared that it is over, but now that Covid's over, so many of my clients that I'm speaking to do more often than not say, I wish I had started this business during COVID I wish I'd taken that time. And, you know, I really remind people, yes, it was an opportunity. And, you know, I think a lot of us were very, very thankful that Covid didn't impact our families massively or impact finances or. But I think also people need to remember that it was a survival. It was a lot of people were in fight or flight. And for some people sitting at home, as you said, you know, watching Netflix was about all that they could cope with. And often I say to my clients, look, you can'. Turn back time and say you wish you had done this, you wish you hadn't. But let's use the fact that we had those three years. You didn't make the change, you didn't start the business. Let's use that now. Let's really kind of scale back and look at the things that during COVID were not there to distract you. So, you know, being able to say to clients, look, if you're constantly going out for dinners and constantly going out for drinks and saying you don't have enough time, what are the. The things that you can take from COVID and go, actually, let me get myself to stay In a few more times, let me say no to a few more social events. And it is. It's really about making those little sacrifices, learning from the pandemic and saying, well, where was my time saved? And now being able to move that forward. I think hindsight's one of those things where you constantly punish yourself and wish you had done things differently.

Yeah. And I think it's what really brings on that point of prioritization. And I'm. I very much take this approach with my clients, and they do appreciate it's very much like the tough love approach of it's your responsibility to be in charge of, like, breaking your relationship cycles and all of this kind of stuff. But it is very much about prioritization and saying, okay, for the next few months, I am my priority. And a lot of the time it starts with an investment. And people think, you know, when we talk about investment, they mean investing financially into your coaching course or something like that. But also it's the huge time investment. I think that's one of the biggest things I've learned from my business and working with clients is people will use time as like, the ultimate excuse. And actually. Exactly. And the way that I always phrase it is, do you not have time? Or do we just need to, like, reject priorities? And when you. When you make it seem like someone's choice of. Because you choose your priorities, all of a sudden it's like, okay, I actually can take some control of this and I can do something about it. So I think exactly as you said, it's really important to be like, okay, we've learned from that. Now let's change things.

One of the big questions I always ask my clients, and this is really such a simple question, such a simple sentence, when a client says to me, I don't have time, I always ask them to reframe that as it's just not a priority. So, for example, if I have a client that comes to me, or you have a client that comes to you that says, you know, I really want to sort out the relationship with my mother because it's very bad, and, you know, I really want to rebuild that relationship, but I just don't have time to work on it. By them reframing it to working on the relationship with my mother is just not a priority, I guarantee they will find that time once they've reframed that in their head. And exactly as you said is, you know, time is one of those things where I understand we had. There are working. You know, there are people who are Working, you know, three jobs at the moment to survive in the economy. There's working mothers, full time single mothers, whatever it is. And I really want to caveat that those aren't the group of people that we are talking about. These are the people who are saying, I don't have time, but then go and watch Netflix for four hours or I don't have the money. And then they're spending £50 on delivery an evening or £100 a week on delivery or whatever it is. And I think that's a really important thing to caveat because you're always going to get groups of people or people saying, well, you don't understand, I'm a, a single mother, I'm working three jobs. Well then actually maybe it's not your time right now to try and start a big business because actually you are going to burn yourself out. And maybe there are some smaller things that you can take to work on. For example, the relationship with your mother starting by calling her once a week, or the business starting by posting once on Instagram. And I believe that there are so many groups of people out there that will constantly find excuses, exactly as you said, as to why they can't make something work.

It is so true. And actually I can even identify it within myself. So like pre Covid, I knew what I wanted to do. And I don't know if you felt the same of being like, I know where I want to take my business, I know what I want to achieve in life. But then I just wasn't doing anything about it.

Yeah.

And I had like reams of like, I still have like vision journals, things like that, where I'd like planned out all of these different businesses in my head.

Me too.

And I just didn't do anything about it. Like even now I have like lots of projects I want to do. And I say to myself, like, oh, I'm quite busy. And I'm like, no, time is not. Time is not the issue. It's definitely something else. And so I think, you know, kind of linking it back to kind of maybe what's useful for other people is if you're going through and you have lots of projects that you want to start and you're saying to yourself, no, I don't have time. I would really probe that further. Be like, if it's not that you don't have time, what else could it be? Is it that you're fearful of it not working? Or, you know, digging into that deeper, I think is a really important part as well.

And 100%. When you just said that, it really got me to think about why I didn't start sooner. And it was mine was the fear of being seen and the fear of other people thinking what I was doing was a joke, and it was stupid. And coaching is not a real industry. And I look back now, when I actually wanted to start coaching, which was six years ago now, and I look back and I go, I wish I had done it there, but I didn't. And I learned lots of valuable lessons, and I still felt like I had lessons and learnings to go through before I could show up for my clients and kind of get there. And I guess that sort of relates back to the question is, for you, why was relationship coaching? You know, you knew you wanted to be a coach, you worked with these charities. Why was relationship coaching? Was it something that came from your own experience? Was it something that you wish that you'd had at a point in your life? Why the relationship coaching from sort of your own experience?

I feel like there's lots of different kind of pieces of the puzzle that kind of, you know, filled that in for me. I think from a personal perspective, I had, you know, without kind of going too much into it, I had a lot of what I would call traumatic relationship experiences in the past. And someone very close to me had something very traumatic happen to them as well. And, you know, we'd both been through different types of therapy, which, as you know, is very different to coaching. And it's something that I felt when I went through therapy. It was really useful to look backwards, sit in the emotions, and kind of unpack what's in the box. But then the piece where I felt like coaching really came in was therapy didn't leave me feeling equipped to deal with what was next. It felt quite just talk about your feelings. And actually it got to the point where I was like, this is really useful. But actually, what would be more useful for me is like an action plan to help me move forward. Now I understand what these cycles are. How can I break them now that I know I need to improve my communication? Let's get really practical with what that looks like. And that's where I feel like coaching really came in for me, from a personal perspective is it really helps as, like, a catalyst to move forwards. It's very practical. There's always, like, at home exercises, you know, things like that. And so I feel like from that perspective, I just knew if it benefited me, it could really benefit other people as well. And then I think, on the other hand, the reason why I really thought more generally to go into explicitly looking at relationships was I saw so many incredible women and men in my life being confident at work, being successful, so to speak, in their careers, really wonderful people. And yet when it came to relationships, I could just see the same things happening again and again, really lacking in confidence, you know, falling into toxic relationships or situationships. And I just thought to myself, if you could see what I could see, the way that you hold yourself, the way that you communicate, everything would be different. And that very much made me think, because initially when I started, I was like, I just want to work with survivors of trauma. That's all I want to do. And actually, it made me think, okay, these skills I have, I could also use working with general individuals. And then the kind of final piece of the puzzle was I also initially said, I only want to work with women. And it was really interesting. I don't necessarily say, hey, I only work with women. But that kind of was how it started. And then probably last year, it was all of a sudden, it was like I realized that 80% of my clients were men. And I was like, how did that happen? And there was something around men saying that they didn't want to talk to their partners about their mental health, they didn't want to address relationship issues with friends. And so it was a lot of men seeking relationship and mental health support, which really was that final piece of the puzzle to me, saying, okay, I can look at relationships very broadly for men and women and also keep this real sort of heart project that I do working with survivors of domestic abuse and trauma. So that sort of created a big picture for me of what I want to do moving forward and also how impactful it can be with lots of different people as well.

I think it's really interesting what you just sort of said about men and women. And I think I read a statistic before that said I believe over this is more generic life coaching, but I believe that 75% of life coaching clients are female. However, exactly as you said, so many coaches I speak with are often targeted toward women, not mental. And I was exactly the same as you. I was very much a I don't want to work with men, I want to work with women. And actually, I've had lots of male clients, and I've absolutely loved working with them. It's a very different dynamic than working with female clients in terms of the emotions, in terms of the way they deal with things, in terms of the way they sort of order things in their own Brain. And I believe what's really interesting is as long as you are connecting with that person, whether they be male, female, non, binary, you know, whatever they identify as actually the root cause of why they're feeling a certain way is often, you know, really, really key, is really, really key to, you know, building that relationship and actually getting results rather than just wanting to work with specific demographics. So I know that the coaching industry, and to be honest, a lot of online, online based businesses are very much, you need a niche, you need to niche, you need to niche. And actually for me the niche is the results. It's not the individual that I'm working for, it's what is the result that this individual wants. The result that they want is X, Y and Z. Okay, can I get them there? And if I can get them there, that's my ideal client. And I do think we're moving away from consistently needing to just niche, niche, niche, moving away from, you know, pink and pampas and, and all of these sorts of things and matcha lattes and all of these things that we see online. That is very traditional life coaching. Whereas now actually what we're trying to move into is creating a safe space where people can come and, you know, talk about what's going on and understand where things are coming from and really being able to say, this is the coach for me, regardless of if I fit in their box of, you know, who they should be coaching, 100%.

And I think something that, you know, when I think about the coaches or therapists or whatever that I've worked with in the past, the thing that really stands out for me isn't what they say or who they want to work with or whatever like that. It's genuinely is this someone that I connect with and I feel like will understand me. And that could be, you know, I had a therapist few years ago. He was a man, this American man in his late 50s. And on the surface you think, gosh, we have nothing in common. It was really one of the first therapists I worked who really made me feel seen. And it's one of those things of it doesn't need to make sense to anyone else but you. And that's the thing is, you know, the relationship you have with that person. And that's all that matters.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's, it's interesting when you're talking about this because, you know, if you go and seek out a therapist or seek out a business coach or whoever it is, yes, you want someone who you can relate to But I think we've gotten so wrapped up in, you know, are they female, are they male or in their 30s, in their 50s. And actually relating to someone exactly as you just said, is often about their experiences, not just how they present themselves to the outer world. And if it doesn't make sense to anyone else, it, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if your therapist is a, you know, 65 year old man who has no concept of, you know, anything that you do in work and TikTok and this and that. It doesn't have to be a 30 year old woman who's into technology, who knows everything about you to understand what you do in your business or day to day. It really doesn't matter. It's really about finding those people that you connect with. And similarly with coaching, as you mentioned, especially as a relationship coach, it's really about connecting with those people, breaking down those walls and creating a safe place for people, regardless of age, gender, background, wherever they're sort of from. So it's really interesting to sort of hear how potentially you've moved from having a niche, you know, wanting it to be women, to actually kind of moving, moving out of that. And that sort of leads on to my next question of how do you quiet down, you know, being a female in the coaching industry? There's so many other women who are coaching, you know, I understand firsthand as well, how do you, as a business owner and as a coach and someone who's growing their practice, how do you quiet down all of the other voices around you and what everyone else is doing and really just stay laser focused on yourselves?

That's such, such an important question because actually a few years ago when I first kind of started, and I think particularly if you're kind of looking a lot at your marketing, there is just a whole world out there, which I think is quite damaging because you start comparing yourself to other people and all of that. And in the past I would have looked at these other people and being like, that's what I need to do. I need to sort of lose a bit of myself to be able to do that. And actually what I've learned is all that matters is are you staying true to yourself? Are you acting with integrity to yourself? I have a friend of mine who, she is a human design reader coach and that's not something I know much about. But you know, she, for example, on her marketing, she doesn't have any photos of herself, she just gives out information basically and you know, her business has absolutely skyrocketed and yet, you know, I see other people who they just, you know, post videos of themselves and they also skyrocket. So there is no one rule, one size fits all rule that just doesn't happen. And so I think the biggest thing is what feels like you're acting in integrity with yourself. And I think for me that was learning. Well, what does that actually look like for me? What are my values? What do I stand for? What do I want to be? And the real big thing was I think I used to be quite frightened of the fact that I am a tough love person who's very into self responsibility. I think it doesn't really go with the message a lot of the time of being like a relationship coach. But actually some people, and obviously my clients really love that and that's why they come to me because it's like I'm not going to wishy washy with lies, I'm not going to wrap you in cotton wool, I'm going to encourage you, but also make you feel responsible and empowered for your own decisions. And I think it's really about sort of embedding within yourself who am I, what's the way that I want to work? And it sounds so cheesy, but when you just feel like you're acting in that integrity, the right people will come to you. And that's really what I've learned is all that matters is am I happy with kind of the work that I put out and that will attract the right people that I want to work with, the people who align with me and of course the people who don't. There are hundreds if not thousands of other people who would be more aligned with them. And actually I think in the past I would have felt like rejected, but actually now it's like, no, I'm not right for you. It's like, it's like in a romantic relationship, it's like, okay, we just don't align. There's no point in feeling super rejected by that because that's someone's doing you a favor. It's like, no, there will be someone else who's more aligned, better fitted for you. And that's the way that I see it in romantic relationships and business. I think it's applicable to both.

I love that way of thinking because it is so easy to get wrapped up in what everyone else is doing on social media. And you know, a lot of, a lot of the industry in general is, is smoke and mirrors. It is very much a fake it till you make it. Unfortunately it is a Lot of, you know, talking about things that are going on and exactly as you said when you were sort of talking about those coaches that post lots, those coaches that don't post, you know, those consultants, those virtual assistants, whoever it is, anyone who's running an online business, especially in this day and age, it's really easy to sort of just keep posting and posting and feeling like you need to be seen. And actually if that's not converting, you can keep posting till the cows come home and you're still just posting just for other people. If it's not working, you know, you have to change it. And it's very easy to compare, you know, that 1% of what someone's posting on social media versus what's actually going on in their business. So it's great to hear sort of how you stay on track and, you know, you really sort of see it as dating. You know, not every coach is going to be the right coach for you, but it's important to find a coach that works for you regardless of if it sort of doesn't work for someone else. So that's great to hear as a coach yourself, how you're doing that. What would you say, you know, even at the beginning of your coaching sort of practice and even up until today, what are the biggest challenges you think you sort of face? I guess day to day, but also that you sort of faced in your journey so far and how have you overcome that?

I think, and this isn't exclusive to being a coach, I think this is for anyone who's self employed is when it comes down to like the end of the tax year and all of that kind of stuff, I think the logistics of being self employed can sometimes feel a little bit overwhelming. And I think the one thing that.

As I was doing my taxes this morning for the end of the year, so thank you for that reminder that actually I do need to get those sent to my accountant as soon as possible.

Yeah, well, this is it because it was on my mind as well. So I was like, it's quite big, it's quite a big thing because actually I think when you start a business, I mean, I very much thought this is, I'm a coach, but actually no, I'm a marketer, I'm my own business manager, I'm my own accountant, all of these kind of things. And so I feel like that's something which no one told me and I wish they had. And it's still something that I kind of deal with day to day. But also being super transparent within that is also the sort of, not necessarily the financial sort of income itself, it's more the instability of it. And I don't know if you find this as well. It's the planning of for example, December in many ways is sort of a write off. August I feel is always a write off. And so that's technically in a way like two months of the year that you're not earning income. And so actually there's this sort of June, July, you're like, woo, I can go on loads of holidays and I have all this money and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, August has come around. So it's things like that in terms of the, you know, some people I, I have a friend of mine who, she's a business consultant and she says irrelevant of that, I just pay myself the same salary every month and that she's, you know, she's a very wise lady and maybe this is something I should be doing as well. But it's, it's very much that kind of up down with income which is something that I find just tricky planning wise. And I think that's it is. No one tells you this and I wish there was almost a kind of, when you're, when you're registering yourself as self employed with hmrc, there should be a like, okay, here's a little bit of like support for you in terms of, you know, what you should be doing. So I think is one of probably like the biggest things and I don't, I think it probably is applicable to any self employed person.

Yeah, I think the whole, you know, not knowing what you have to expense, what you can't expense if you expense less, what does that mean for getting a mortgage? You know, we saw a lot of people during the pandemic that sort of expensed everything and got their tax down to zero and then were massively impacted when they didn't get any money from the government to support them. So it's really about understanding, you know, for example, in the States lots of people want to be very poor on paper because they want to pay as least tax as possible. Whereas in the UK a lot of people want to have that solid income because they know that if they ever needed help from the government or they needed a mortgage or whatever it was, lots of people also want to, you know, be able to borrow. But then they set up a limited company and they take dividends and there is all of this conversation, but it's not until you're in it and it's almost not too Late, I don't want to say, but you're sort of in it and then you're going, oh, right, okay. Actually I have to do all of these things that no one taught me at school how to do. But don't worry, I know how to, I know what PI is or I know what Pythagoras theorem is, but I can't do my own taxes. It's really quite daunting. And I think one of the big things is being able to educate yourself exactly as you said massively, is when you're going self employed, whether it be a coach, whether it be a consultant, whether it be a freelance graphic designer, whatever it is that you're going to be is really educating yourself and having conversations and speaking to those around you who have done it to know. Actually, yes, you are a graphic designer but you are also business development manager, generating leads, you are doing the marketing, you're doing the invoices, the taxes, whatever it is. I think it's really important to go in with your eyes sort of wide open and know actually you are becoming everything as well as the business owner when you are running your own self employed business 100%.

And I think it's something which, you know, as you said, we don't get, we don't get taught this stuff. And so you kind of also have to be like your lead educator and everything. And it does make me think, you know, what are some of those really useful skills that we should learn? And some of it is, you know, it's about, as you say, it's like how do you apply for a mortgage, how do you look for a mortgage broker, things like that. But it's even, you know, linking it back to what I do is when did you ever get taught like how to have a hard conversation, what are boundaries, what is consent? You know, all of these things which being very honest, it sounds quite basic, but it's a lot of what clients come to me about is how do we, how, what are my boundaries, how do I implement a boundary, how do I communicate that. Which it sounds like quite basic stuff but if we had learned it, maybe I wouldn't have a job, I don't know. But it's kind of this stuff which it's like, yeah, we're almost going back to basics with a lot of, with a lot of things.

It's really interesting that you say the boundaries and consent and all of that stuff sounds very basic and I think for you it probably does because you're in this field of work and you've worked with those charities. For a lot of people, especially I would say the older generation, our parents generation, if you say boundaries to them, they think you're this woke millennial Gen Z that has no idea on reality. And it's been really interesting educating my parents on boundaries and what my boundaries are. And, you know, their first response was, this is so woke. I'm your parent. What do you mean, boundaries? And it's really interesting because it's educating the older generation to understand that, but also educating the younger generation to see, say it's okay if a family member wants to give you a hug and you don't want that, you can say to them, hey, listen, like, I don't feel comfortable my uncle giving me a hug. Like, that's not okay. Has it gone too far? A lot of the time, yes. You see these very, very woke mothers saying, I asked my child at 3 weeks old if I can change their nappy and if they, you know, for consent and all of this stuff. And I think that sort of makes a mockery of the whole situation of actually going, as we're getting older as adults, yes, we want to set boundaries with people, and we want to set boundaries with friends, families, work colleagues, whoever it is that we need to set boundaries with. And it's really important to show people, actually it's okay to do that, whether it's in your business, whether it's working with a client and really being able to stand on your own and hold that boundary, even if it gets very, very difficult. And as a business owner, boundaries are the holy grail of everything that you're ever going to do, because without boundaries, the business just completely, completely falls apart.

Definitely. And I think it is kind of interesting hearing that from your perspective, because I think a lot of the time in my kind of work with clients, we're talking about boundaries, which, as I say, like, seem quite basic. And maybe it is, because I see it day in, day out. It's very similar boundaries. But it is interesting to hear your perspective in terms of a lot of this stuff probably has gone too far. And it's really interesting to hear that because I. Because a lot of my. The clients I work with, I would say sort of older millennials. And then you think about, okay, well, what are we teaching younger generations? And things like that. And it's. I'm. I am not on TikTok. I. I've tried it and find it quite complicated.

But this.

I was like, oh, I'm so old. But it very much is like all of the stuff on there. And I have seen videos where it's like, you know, in the. In the past, you know, I would have been in a bar and someone would have come up to me and like, asked my number or, like, had a drink. But now it's like, is it safe to do that? Because are you gonna get accused of, like, actually my boundary, I'm not inviting you into my space to invite me for a drink kind of thing. So it's. It's quite complex actually now. And I feel like common sense has to. Has to come back into these conversations.

I couldn't agree with you more. Then. It's really interesting because a lot of people, you know who I've spoken to, single friends who are, you know, dating, they're actively dating on dating apps, online, whatever. I always say to them, if someone came up to you at a bar and offered to buy you a drink, what would you say? And I'm not joking. More, more than. Less of them would go, oh, no, it's disgusting. It's so cringe, someone coming up to you. And I think, okay, but how are you meant to meet people then? You know, no, you shouldn't approach a woman in a bar because it's seedy. And I speak to my parents and their friends and they say, well, that's how you met them. People. We didn't have this online dating. We met through friends. We met at parties. You'd ask a girl to my mum, bless her, she was like, you know, a guy would ask you to dance and it would be very innocent. So it's one of those things where I sort of talk to them about that and they say, you know, we really do feel for this generation because we've gone so far now where we're almost so socially inept that we can't even communicate with someone without going, well, that's my boundary. And this is this. And you've crossed the mark and you've done that. And again, I think this. This sort of goes back to making a mockery of it, of actually, if someone comes and asks you for a drink and you are not interested in them, when you are setting that boundary and saying, no, thank you, that's the boundary. And then if they cross that, everything after that okay is not okay. But someone coming to ask you for a drink, they're basically asking you, what is your boundary? Can I take you for a drink? And then if you say no, and they don't, respect. We can't expect everyone in everyday life to know all of our boundaries. We to know what we're going to be offended by, to know what works, to know what doesn't work. And, you know, I've had to set it with clients when they'll say to me, you know, I want you available, you know, in the morning for a call every day. And that for me, that's a boundary I can't commit to. It's something that I've got a hard and fast boundary with. I'm not available at the same time every day, five days a week. It's not how I work as a business owner. It's not how I work. It's never how I will work. And if you want that, there will be another coach out there that won't have that boundary that, that has incorporated that into their business model. If they hadn't asked the question, how are they meant to know if I got angry with them and said, excuse me, that's my time, how dare you. You know, we were sort of all as bad as each other with actually going back and going, well, you have to ask the question to know the boundary. Once you know it, it's then taking that step back and respecting it 100%.

And it's something I see not just with things like boundaries, but it's something. It's like, oh, particularly when I would say kind of more like my sort of like anxious female clients. It's like, oh, I don't know what he's thinking. Do you think he likes me? You know, this kind of thing around dating. And my number one thing I will say is ask them because we have this idea that we, we should be mind readers and everyone else should be mind readers who know our expectation, they should know our boundaries. They should just know everything. And it's like, well, unless you communicate what your boundaries are, unless you ask for clarity, unless you say, actually, I'm going to pick you up on this, and I wish things, we could do things differently in future. Unless you communicate and say all this, nothing is going to change. And I think that's when it becomes, as you said, it becomes a mockery. And actually you need to know for yourself what's right, what works for you to be able to communicate it to others. And I think there's no point in knowing it and just presuming everyone else is going to be the same as you. You've got to actually articulate it. And I understand it sounds quite easy for me to say that, but actually, you know, this took me years to work out and years to go through, but actually, once you do it. You're like, oh, okay, I have a boundary in place. I've communicated it. You can take it or leave it. And it feels really good and empowering to be able to be in those places.

And as a business owner, how do you put in place boundaries? Whether it be with your clients, with other people that you're working with, how do you implement those boundaries? How do you communicate them? And what are some of the strict boundaries that you have in your business?

Yeah, so it's really interesting because the thing that I always say to my clients, and I do believe this, is in order for them to commit, it has to work for them. So in many ways, other people say, oh, I'm quite flexible. Thing I always say is, I will aim to get back to you within 24 hours. So if someone messages me, emails me, no, I'm not on call at all times, because, you know, so that's quite a hard boundary for me. It's like, no, it'll probably take me 24 hours. That's kind of what I aim for. And I think it's about being clear and it's about being consistent. Because I have a client of mine at the beginning who I didn't have, like, a proper cancellation policy. And, you know, it was like, five minutes before the call, she'd, like, text me and be like, can't make it. Sorry. And I would be, like, really frustrated. But I hadn't said to her, look, this is my cancellation policy. So that was on me rather than on her. And so I think it's about understanding for me what worked, what didn't work. So it's things really about communication in terms of, I will always get back to you. It might take 24 hours. And it's about implementing that and being honest about it. And I do think honesty in particular is really important when it comes to setting boundaries, because what's realistic? Is it realistic that I'm gonna respond to everything in one day? Hopefully. Is it realistic to say, I'll get back to you as soon as I can, you know, immediately? No, that's not realistic. So I don't do it. And so I think that's. It is when I come to create boundaries, it has to be realistic and has to be consistent. It has to be something I can always do, because otherwise there's just no point in, like, going back and forth. Like, with one client, it's this, another client, it's this, like, no, it has to be consistent across the board.

Absolutely. And it makes it so much easier for you, if you have those clear boundaries in place. And what you were saying about the, the client canceling five minutes before I was exactly the same. Clients just wouldn't show up. And I'd be like, oh, no, it's fine, it's fine. And now it's in my contract. It's a hard and fast rule. They know. And, you know, I think life happens. Absolutely it does. You know, there's emergencies come up, there's illnesses that happen. Absolutely. But, you know, you sort of know with a client, if they're going, I've overslept or, you know, I completely forgot, or whatever it is, it's really being able to see those boundaries and understanding, okay, what's your boundary? And how hard and fast are these rules? And really being able to make sure that we're implementing those as hard as it is, because, you know, we're throwing around the word boundary as if it's the easiest thing to do and implement. And we both, we both know it's not, especially when finances are involved, when you're running your own business, you want to be liked. You want to make sure that your clients want to continue working with you, that you're not losing them. So it is a very difficult thing to do. But once you've really got a hold on it, you know, whether it be work, personal relationships, whatever it is, it's such powerful tool to be able to use to protect your energy and protect you sort of day to day. So, Jessica, I always ask everyone this question, and it's one that I never prep people for, and I like to throw people in the deep end. Well, most people know because they've listened to the podcast before. But my question to you, my final question would be, what would be your one big piece of advice to anyone who's listening, listening to the podcast, who's thinking about going self employed, starting their own business, and sort of taking the less, the road less traveled when it comes to careers. What would be your one big piece of advice?

This is something that I wish I had done, but I, but I also now do. Every time I'm thinking about, like, my next step is we think of ourselves on like, certain levels, so to speak. So if you're in, you know, currently, you're working five days a week, but you see where you want to be as like that next step. The thing I would always say is find four or five people who are in that place, watch them closely, engage with them, and then reach out and say, hey, I would love to talk to you. I'd love to find out the steps you took, blah, blah, blah. Because it's something that someone said to me once. People love to be asked for help. People love it. They love to help others because it makes you feel good. It makes you feel like, oh, I've got some value to add. So that's the number one thing I would say. And that's, you know, that's not just for people who are just starting out. That is, you know, you could be five years into your business. Okay. Find someone who you feel is, like a level above you and, like, sit with them, learn from them. You will always be learning. And it's about having those conversations, learning from other people, what worked for them, what didn't. And also why I say do it with four or five people is if you just do it with one person, you'll be like, oh, okay, but maybe that doesn't work for you. So that's why I say do it with as many people as you can. Feed off their knowledge and then find what works best for you.

Absolutely. I love that so much. Well, look, thank you so much for being such an incredible guest. As you said before the podcast, I feel like we could have just spoken for hours about all of this stuff. So maybe there'll be A part 2 further down the line where we can dive into a little bit more about some of the relationship tools and the kind of way you want work with clients. But for now, I've had such an incredible time speaking to you. I know that there's going to be so much value for all of our listeners. So thank you so much for being on this week's podcast.

No, thank you. I've loved it. Thanks for having me.

Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We really hope that you've gained valuable insights into what it takes it takes to carve your own career path. Remember, whether you're an artist, an entrepreneur, or anything in between, there is always a way to pursue your dreams and create a fulfilling career for yourself. The key is to stay true to your passions, be persistent, and never give.

Up on your goals.

As always, we want to thank you, our listeners, for joining us on this incredible journey. We look forward to bringing you more inspiring stories in the future. So stay tuned for our next next episode. Until then, keep pushing the boundaries, chasing your dreams, and living your most unconventional life.

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