Episode 4: From the 9-5 to creating her dream agency. A conversation with Saffron Rizzo.

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Welcome to the Career Chronicles Podcast, hosted by me, Emma Nayla. Each week we'll be interviewing people from all walks of life and uncovering the challenges, successes and insights that come from forging your own path. Whether you're looking for inspiration to pursue your own unconventional career or simply curious about the stories of those who have done so, this podcast is for you. So join us as we explore the world of unconventional careers and the amazing people who have turned them into a reality. Sit back, relax, and let's dive into these incredible stories together.

Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Career Chronicles Podcast. Today we have a remarkable guest joining us. Someone who has defined the norms and found their true passion in the world of PR and talent management. My wonderful and beautiful friend, Sarah Saffron Rizzo. Saffron's journey began four years ago when she made the bold decision to escape the normal 9 to 5 office life. Having worked in lifestyle, PR and at various PR agencies right after leaving university, Saffron stumbled into the world of PR through a friend who'd recently launched her own agency. Little did she know that this encounter would ignite her deep passion for the industry. Throughout her career, Saffron has worked with a number of prestigious fashion brands, beauty brands and luxury brands, gaining valuable experience and honing her skills. While she briefly dabbled with corporate pr, Saffron found herself drawn to the vibrant agency life. However, she also experienced firsthand the toxic, competitive, sometimes cutthroat and bitchy nature of this female dominated industry. Determined to forge her own path, Saffron took a leap of faith and left her last agency behind. She found herself freelancing at Channel 5 as a talent assistant, which proved to be a big turning point in her professional career. Immersed in the fast paced world of entertainment, Saffron discovered a knack for managing diverse personalities and nurturing talent. It was in this moment that her desire to combine her expertise in PR and talent management took root. Driven by her passion and armed with her knowledge, she embarked on an exciting new venture, the birth of her very own agency. Today, Saffron Rizzo stands as a testament to the power of following one's passions and forging a career that aligns with your true calling each even if it is going against the norms. I am so excited to have Saffron joining us this week on the podcast. So join me in welcoming as we delve into her journey, the challenges she's overcome and the invaluable insights that she's gained along the way. Get ready for an enlightening and an inspiring Conversation with the brilliant Saffron Rizzo.

Hey, Saffron. Welcome to the Career Chronicles podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. Hi.

It's so good to be here. I'm so glad finally I'm here. Like, I've been dying to be on for ages.

I am so excited to have you here and I can't wait to share a little bit more about your journey. So first of all, I would love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners. A little bit more about your background and just a little bit more about you.

So I'm Saffron and I am the founder of Rizzo Publicity, which is a PR and talent management agency I've been going for. This will be our fourth year now. Now and.

Wow, four years already.

Yeah, I know. I was thinking about this the other day. I was, Yeah, I was trying to work it out exactly when I started and this, the 1st, the 2nd of May will be officially when I launch my business, when I officially went to Company. So, yeah, it's crazy. It does feel, yeah, it feels longer, but also like, it does feel like the other day. It's crazy. I can't believe, like we're going into our fourth year. I feel, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's mental. But yeah, it's super exciting and, and it's quite nice to look back on, on like how far I've come. Obviously knowing I was coming on the podcast, I thought, you know, I thought I just kind of look back and just look at my story. So I just, you know, when you kind of get, you get so wrapped up in what you're doing in the now, in the present and you kind of just forget. Yeah. Everything that you've done and like how far you've come and my, the build up to launching my career and it's, it's, yeah, it's quite, it's quite nice to do a bit of self reflecting, I guess. But. Yeah, so we set up for. I set up four years ago. I started initially as a. Just a PR agency. That's. My background is working in public relations and I do have about, I do have, I did have experience in talent management, but it was something I was never, I wasn't, I never thought it was like I wanted to do full time. I was like my, my passion and my experience, my background was in PR and working with brands. I worked in corporate PR agencies as well. And I kind of just fell into talent management and I guess it kind of went hand in hand there Wasn't really an agency that I know of that do both. And I thought that was kind of going to be my niche was doing PR for brands, but at the same time managing talent. And I also do publicity for talent as well. So it's kind of like it's. I call myself. It's a dual agency, you know, we are a dual agency. And yeah, I guess it's kind of just grew from there, really. I mean, I don't. Yeah, I kind of. I guess I'm juggling to, you know, two hats at once and sometimes it can be a handful, but I just, I do enjoy both and they do complement each other quite well. You know, your, your managing sort of brand's personal perception of, you know, how the public see them. And, and it's the same with my talent as well. You know, I, I manage their image, I manage how the public, you know, how they're perceived in the media and obviously manage them as an agent as well. So, yeah, it's.

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think it's always really interesting when you ask someone to describe what they do, because you do what you do day in and day out. It's often hard to sometimes get it down to just one sort of sentence. So, you know, it's really sort of interesting to learn how you, how you got into that and sort of what you do. So talk me through your sort of career trajectory. Were there any sort of pivotal moments sort of from when you started in the PR space to where you are now, sort of talk us through how that looked for you?

Yeah, I mean, I said, I went to uni, I studied history of art. I thought I was going to be like an art dealer. That was my. And then I left uni and I, I did like an internship in a gallery and I was like, this just isn't for me. And just by chance, I fell into pr. I was working with a girl who just set up her agency and it was just, it was kind of when Instagram was just taking off influences, this. They were called bloggers, you know, they was. Yeah, social media wasn't really. It wasn't really a thing. I mean, people had it, everyone was. No one was taking it that seriously. And I thought, yeah, I started working with her. I was interning and I. We were kind of. We did a lot of beauty brands, I was working a lot of beauty friends with her doing their pr and it was just, yeah, just naturally, I just really enjoyed. I had no idea what PR was, I had no idea what marketing was. Didn't have, you know, any degree, no knowledge, nothing. Like prior to uni, I had no idea what it was and I just, Yeah, I just, I just fell into it really. It was kind of. Yeah, I don't know, it's very strange. I don't know how, but I just loved it. It was like my first proper job and I really loved it. I think that's quite rare. I think it's quite. Yeah, they kind of, they fall into something that they, that they absolutely love.

And also that they're good at. Because as humble as you are, Saffron, as you are, you are incredible at what you do. So it is really interesting jumping into your first job and actually being really successful. As you said. I don't think that happens to a lot of people sort of in their first job.

So.

So how did it kind of progress from there in you in your sort of first job?

Yeah, so it was obviously I was just interning at the time and obviously I wanted to, to grow, but I knew that I love pr. I knew that this is what I wanted to do. So I then went to work at another agency which was in London and it was actually, that was where I first started to, to test the water talent. It was a publicity agency. So we were still applying PR to, we were still working with brands and. But we were also doing the publicity for talent. And that's why I kind of got my first taste for the industry and the showbiz industry. And I remember just, I think I was going to an event for the first time and I was sort of seeing the people that you see on tv, like in real life and you know, you saw the cameras and the paparazzi and I was just like, oh, it was just, you know, being young, I mean, I must have been 21. Like, I guess you just, you're so just in awe of everything. And I just knew like, this is, yeah, I was just like, this is what I want to do. I want to work in this industry in some way, in some form. And I was at that agency for about three and a half years.

And.

Actually they, they actually, they just, they. I don't quite remember exactly why they kind of what, like the people, everyone just kind of started moving around and it was going different ways and I just thought I had to kind of jump ship at the time. And that's when I went into full time PR because the talent was like, was fun and I really enjoyed it, but I didn't really know how. I didn't really see a career in That I didn't really see how I could kind of make a career out of work with talent at the time. I just saw it as more of a fun. You know, it was just a fun kind of experience. So from that agency, I moved to working with the PR agency that I first started working with. I went to a larger agency, which is where I first got a taste for talent, talent management. And I knew that was the industry that I wanted to somehow, you know, get involved in. And I was there for three and a half years. And then after that I left and I went to work with Channel 5, which is how I kind of got more into. Into the talent area. And I was working as a celebrity assistant on their celebrity shows and yeah, just kind of snowballed. I just knew that I was. I. That's when I kind of realized I was more of a people's person. And I like working people. I liked looking after people in that sense. And I knew that sort of some form of management was. Yeah, I guess it was kind of just not my calling. But I don't know, I just felt. It just felt very natural. And I was torn between working with like, work, continuing to work in TV or going back to working in pr. It was like a very. Yeah, it was kind of. Yeah, it was difficult decision. I didn't really know what to do. So I was kind of just juggling sort of two. Yeah, two jobs at once, really. I was working sort of freelancing in. In PR and still working with Channel 5. So it was kind of. Yeah, it was difficult to kind of decide which route to go down, which is I guess why I. I've ended up still doing both, really. Because I. Yeah, I. I just didn't. I didn't want to give up one or the other. And if I could do both, then I. Yeah, I wanted to make it work. Yeah.

And I think that's. It's really interesting talking about, you know, you mentioned I didn't know how an. In. How a career in talent would work, because bearing in mind we are talking eight, nine years ago when you started.

Yeah.

In this industry. How has it sort of been watching this world of talent really evolve in the last sort of decade and really being, you know, you're so in the trenches of it. How have you seen it evolve and how has it evolved in the last sort of 10 years?

Yeah, it's crazy. Like, looking back at. Yeah, just looking back at kind of how the influencer has grown over the, like, it's even just the way Instagram, the App itself. It's just crazy. I was looking through old, sort of old photos of the work and like events and old Instagram posts that we'd like work brands on and it's just, it's crazy how far it's come. It's absolutely. I never thought that it would, I always, I think everyone else just thought that social media and influences were just going to be like a one hit wonder and they were going to eventually kind of just evaporate into, you know, it was just going to be just something that, you know, just a trend. But I don't think anyone thought people would actually make like lifelong careers after being an influencer and working on, you know, social media and on Instagram. It's, it's just crazy when you look back and you actually think about how far, how far it's come and you know, the money that you can make from social media is just, it's, it's just, it's astronomical. Like, it's just unbelievable. You know, I remember like the very first time I think we were doing like a paid post with a brand when I was first working in the talent management agency I worked in. You know, it was like nothing. Like, like not pennies, but it was just, it was just. Yeah. Today compared to today, it's just crazy. Like no one would work, like, no one would, no one would do that anymore. And like the quality of photo and it was just. Yeah. And there was no, it wasn't. You know, now when you post a photo, it's, or any kind of content on social media, you know, the brand want to, you know, see the return of investment. They want to see the engagement, they want to see, you know, their money's worth. They want to see. But back then it was just, let's get a celebrity to endorse his products, hold it up and take a photo. And that was, that was it. There was no aftermath. Like, there was, that was it, you know, and, and you know, if you got paid to do it, it was a bonus, but people would just be like, oh, freebies. Everything was free. It was all about gifting and getting free dinners and free lunches and then tagging them in your photos and you know. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's come so far. It's crazy. There's, you know, there's no sign of it slowing down either. It's definitely, you know, it's just, yeah, it's never gonna, I just, I, I can't, it's. Yeah, it's great. Like even having Even having Instagram used to be like, just not, you know, everyone was like, oh, what's Instagram? Oh yeah, I might get it. Or I didn't know much. Now it's just integral, you know, it's. If you don't have. It's more strange not to have social media than it is to have it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting as someone who's more kind of an outsider. Look, I use Instagram, I do use TikTok, I use LinkedIn, all of those sort of platforms. But as we were sort of having this conversation before, it's been incredible to see how this digital world has created so many businesses. You know, the influencer size, the blogger size, but then also like yourself, creating these talent agencies which solely focus on people who are, who are sort of influencers. You know, if we were talking 10 years ago, there's no way that you would have been able to start a business that totally focused on digital talent. How did you find it? And obviously, as I said, you've been in this industry for probably nearly nine, ten years now. How did you find it? Sort of moving from in house, working for someone and going freelance and then actually I guess having the, the sort of guts to go, I want to go and do this on my own. How was that process and how did you, how sort of organic was that growth and change?

You know, I mean, people always say like that, yeah, how, like, how did you do it? How do you take that leap of faith? And I wish I had a more kind of in depth, you know, sort of, I don't know, more of it. Like a really in depth, well, you know, well put together arts. But really it just, I didn't, to be honest, I didn't think about it. I didn't think, you know, maybe that was a bit naive of me, but I didn't think too much about it because I think if you, if you, I would have just scared myself off. But I think being young back then, I was so young, I mean, I say so young, I was 24. You kind of don't really have any inhibition that you just, you just kind of, you just jump, you just go with it. I didn't really think too much about, wow, I'm going to be working on my own. It just kind of, it just happened and then, you know, then you start to get. And then when people ask me what I was doing and you know, who you working for? At first I used to be really not embarrassed, but nervous to be like, oh, I just work for myself. And people are like, what do you mean you work for yourself? You know, and so, well, I, you know, I've got this agency and red be like, but what do you know about business that you don't know anything? And, you know, and for ages I'd be quite, like, embarrassed. Not embarrassed, but just. It's really hard to explain, but just a bit nervous to say that I was working for myself because I think people just looked at me like I was like, stupid. Like, what does she know about running a business? Or what does she know about working for herself? You know, And I felt, yeah, there was times where I just like, what am I doing? You know, all my friends were, you know, working for big, you know, big companies and they were all getting bonuses and progressing in their careers and there was little. Me kind of just setting up this agency, you know, working from. Working from home. And yeah, I just kind of. I just thought sometimes I was just like, yeah, am I doing the right thing? But then I never really stopped too long to think about it because if I did, I kind of just freak myself out. And then, you know, I just thought I just had to keep going. And also those people that made those digs and they made those comments actually make me just want to do.

Do.

To do better, to do more. So I thought actually every. A lot of people doubted me, like, even family, even friends. And I thought, actually, no, I'm going to prove everybody wrong because I can do this and I know I'm good at what I do. And I, I just. Yeah, I just knew I had to. I had. I had to prove myself because I was so scared that it was gonna fail and everyone was gonna be like, told you. So, yeah, she couldn't do it. You know, what does she know about running a business? And, yeah, it was hard, I'd say, for the first year. The first year I didn't really tell anybody that I was working on my own.

I remember, I remember you were very low key. It goes back to my point of being incredibly humble about what you're doing.

Well, you say humble, but I do think a lot of it was being fearful of what people would say and the comments, you know, because at the start I was quite excited to say, yeah, I work for myself and, you know, I'm. Yeah, I'm running my own business, but. But there was also some sort. It was not imposter syndrome, but I just didn't feel. I didn't feel like I was running a business at the time. I still thought I was just Kind of freelancing, and it didn't really feel, you know, real. And then after a year, you know, I had to set up my business, you know, companies house, and I had to set up, you know, my Instagram. And it was really hard to hide the fact that I was actually running an agency on my own. And it was my, you know, self, you know, Rizzo pr. It was my name, you know, my name and my business. And then people kind of, oh, like, that's yours. You know, that's your business. You know, you're working on your own. And then I finally had to kind of just admit, yes, you know, this is what I've been doing for the last year, you know, behind the scenes. But for ages, I would kind of tell people I'm freelancing still and I'm doing this on this bit of this on the side. And yeah, it was a good. It was a good year before I actually. Yeah, I had to properly start telling people for sure. Yeah.

What's really interesting about that is the majority of people I speak to, whether it's in coaching sessions or whether it's on the podcast or. Or in any sort of walk of life where I'm speaking to people about their career, I would say nine times out of 10, people have done exactly what you've done and they sort of trying to keep it under. I'm one of those people included. I didn't tell anyone that I was coaching or doing anything or anything for a very, very long time. And as you said, there was sort of twofold. The first one was, what happens if it doesn't work out and I'm either failure. And the second was people are going to judge me and think of me.

Yeah.

I know that once you get over that hurdle of not playing small and. And being so quiet, you're fully able to throw yourself into that business. And that's actually at that point where your business often starts really taking off because you're not yourself. You're telling one and actually then become seen. And that's where your business starts skyrocketing.

Yeah. Because I also think when it's out there, you. It's like right now, I really can't hide, you know?

Yeah.

Everybody knows what my business is, where they can find my business, they can check up on, you know, my social media. Like, you can't really hire. You have nowhere to hire. So I feel like you then kind of. Yeah. Then you go into overdrive. You're like, right, this has to work. And that's when, like, you said your, you know, your business starts to really take off because it's almost like you've got more to prove because now it's out there, like, you know, you can't hide anymore. You have to, you know, show what you're. Show what you're made of. And, you know, and like you said, it's a fear of failure. Is it you. Now people know what you're doing, there's nowhere to hide. You have to.

Yeah, it's got to work. Or it's got to work. That's the only option.

Yeah. And that's still kind of. I wouldn't say horns, but that's always still in the back of my head. You know, I still sort of see we're still relatively young as an agency, and that's. The fear of failure is always still in the back of my head. You know, I always still feel like you always want to prove yourself. I think even. Yeah, I don't think I'll ever get to a point where if I'll sit back and think, yeah, you know, that's it. I can take my, you know, my foot off the gas. I just think that's always in the back of my head. Until I get to a certain level. I think that's always. I just. Yeah, that's. But that is my driving force, you know, I cannot fail. I do not want to fail like this. Cannot fail. You know, I, I still, those, those comments from the very start, you know, four years ago, they still, you know, they still circle around my head, and I still do have those. They still haven't gone away. You know, even though I've. I've got a business, a successful business, you know, you still, you know, those, those kind of comments of you're never going to make it or what do you know about running a business? You've got no experience. They still, they're still there. You know, they still, they still haunt me sometimes. But I use those as leverage, I use as motivation, you know, for the days where I feel like I've really, you know, I've really got to push myself because there are days where I just, you know, they're, of course, you know, working for yourself, insurance, you know, it's really tough. You know, some days you just feel like, this is what I want to do, you know, can I, Can I. Can I do this, you know, for another year? Like, you just. You do question yourself. You know, you might have a bad month, you might have a bad couple of weeks. You just question yourself. Like, is this. Am I Still good enough. You know, is this what I want to do? You know, am I going to get to the level that I want to get to? And it's when, you know, you hit those points where you have to find, you know, that, that motivation, you know, and I guess proving you prove it to yourself, but it's to those, you know, to, to the doubters. That's what, that's what kind of guides me to keep going.

Have there, has there ever been a point where you've regretted doing what you're doing and thought I don't want to do this anymore?

Yeah, like weekly. No, I'm joking. No, yeah, of course. All the time. I always think, oh gosh, you know what, should I just go back and work in an office? You know, the day where I'm just pulling my hair out and the stress that, you know, it's stressful and it's 247 what I do. It's not clock on it, you know, eight and log off at five. It's, it's non stop, you know, and it's, it's really, it's quite isolating as well. It's, it's very, it can be very kind of, you know, it's not a lot of people don't. Unless you're in the industry, it's very hard for people to kind of relate to your, to what you're doing. And yeah, there's, yeah, there's, yeah, of course, of course there are many times I just feel like, should I just go back and work in an office? But I just knew I was never, that I just knew I was never destined to work for somebody else. Yeah, I don't feel very well with authority and I realized that when I was working in these agencies. I just realized I just, and I didn't like, you know, office politics. That's the one thing that I really didn't like was, especially in pr, it's, it's quite a female dominated industry and it's very bitchy and it's very cassy. And I remember a few agencies I was working in and I would just get that awful, awful anxiety of going to work every day. You know, it's like a lump in my, I've hated it, absolutely hate. And then, you know, you'll rush and I just, I just knew I was, I could not do this for the rest of my life. I just knew I couldn't be sat behind a desk working for somebody else like a robot. Don't get me wrong, you know, I would love to just I would love, you know, I love the security of having of, you know, of having an office job and I loved everything that went with it, but I just knew myself that just wasn't for me, that, and that just wasn't. I just thought that's not what I was going to do for the rest of my life. I think my parents just wish I was just, you know, in like a steady, stable job, you know, a 9 to 5, a normal 9 to 5. But I just knew, I just, I just knew it was. I just knew it wasn't for me and I just knew I couldn't do that for the rest of my life. I loved PR and I loved the industry and I loved. But I just knew that being in a, in an office, behind a desk, making money for somebody else just wasn't what. It just. Yeah, I just knew it wasn't. It wasn't what I wanted to do and like I said, do very well.

With authority, you know, and it's clear that when you are moving into a, you know, as you said, the 9 to 5 absolutely has benefits in terms of. It feels very secure. You kind of know what money's coming in, you know, which way is down. You've got a very clear path and, and a lot of those roles, you have that clear sort of corporate ladder that you're sort of climbing. When it comes to choosing more of an unconventional career path, you know, running your own business, setting up your agency, of course it comes with its own sort of set of challenges. What has been, in your view, the biggest obstacles that you face in setting up your own business? And how have you been able to overcome them and continue.

In this? Yeah, I mean, look, every, every week there's a challenge, a new challenge you face, you know, being a new business, being a business owner, there's still, you know, I'm still learning, you know, every day. And I think probably the biggest challenge, I guess it's probably when you've, it's learning to say no and learning to set boundaries. You know, at the very start, I would just take on any work, any talent. I was just, you know, desperate to make a name for myself. I was desperate to just have work. But I think probably in the last year I've learned, you know, I had to kind of start looking long term and looking at longevity and my agency, how I wanted to portray myself to, you know, to other, to other agency, to the public. And I just feel it got to a point where I was. There was certain people I was managing that I didn't necessarily thought fit my brand anymore, and it wasn't where I wanted to go. And it was just really difficult for me because I didn't really. I've never. I've never had to have those tricky conversations, and I really didn't want to. And I was putting off for some. So long, and I think I just. I just knew I had. I just knew I had these conversations and, you know, and it was something I really didn't want to do. And that cutting, that kind of Cutting that chord was probably. Probably one of the biggest challenges for me. It was. It was. It was. It was difficult, but it had to be done. And I just knew that once I'd done it, it was like ripping a band aid off, you know, Once I'd done it, it was. Yeah, it was like a big relief, but it was. It's. No. It was knowing when to. Yeah. When to sort of say no and when to sort of make. Yeah. Make those. But sort of make those boundaries, I guess. Yeah, it was difficult. For sure. For sure. And I guess it's like firing somebody, isn't it? It's like. It's awful. And I'm so close to everyone that I work with. You know, I'm. And especially my talent. Like, I'm very. You know, we're very personable. That's what. That's all. You know, that's our agency. You know, we're so personal. It's always one of us we're talking to. It's very. You know, it's very kind of. Yeah, like the clients, like my friends, my family, you know, so it's all. It was. It was. Yeah, it's like almost having a breakup.

It was really.

Yeah, it was very. It was very difficult. But those conversations had to. Had to happen. And. And, yeah, it's. It's definitely worked out the best for both parties. And I feel so far that's probably been one of the biggest challenges is learning to. Learning. Yeah. Learning to say no and learning when to set those boundaries for sure.

And of course, you know, you're incredible with talent. You're a people person, you know, as. Again, as I said, you're very humble about it, but, you know, how to do the talent side, how to do the PR side. How was it, you know, not only going on your own and, you know, you continue to do the things that you're good at, the talent and the pr, but when we go and work for ourselves, we then become a business owner, and all of those things aren't necessarily in people's skill sets. You know, they go and start their own business, they go and become a freelancer because they're good at that particular. That, that particular domain and that particular way of working, but necessarily, they're not necessarily good at business. How did you navigate going from sort of being an employ, key to running your own business and all of those challenges that. That entails?

Yeah, it's definitely difficult. Like, you have to start doing your accounts and like, what's tax and you know, all these just things you don't. Well, you're not taught at school, that's for sure. You know, and. And you have to wear so many hats as a business owner, especially at the start, you know, it's so overwhelming. I definitely got help from, I mean, my dad, you know, he's, he, he's a business owner himself, so he's definitely helped me, you know, and I, I really don't like help asking for help. So for me, it's a big thing having to ask for help. But there's only so much you can do on your own. You know, there's just this. There's. I mean, it's just endless. You know, if it's not your finances you're managing, it's how to write a contract, you know, how to sort your invoices, and there's just. It's never ending. But, you know, there's. I think they get to a point where you have to. Yeah, sometimes you do just have to learn to ask for help. So I've been very lucky in the sense I've got. I'm surrounded by, you know, a couple of my friends also are business owners. So I've. I've been surrounded by people who have been in similar situations. But that's not to say it's still difficult. I mean, there's still, you know, there's still, there's still things now that I'm learning and, you know, you just have to learn to outsource. As you grow as a business, you know, your responsibilities become bigger. So, you know, now we, you know, we, we outsource, you know, lawyers for contracts and, you know, we have accountants now. I have someone that sorts all my finances. But at the very start, first, we don't have the money to do that. You don't have, you know, and you just. No one tells you that. No one tells you. Yeah, all the nitty gritty, just. Everyone just looks and on your Instagram and think everything's glamorous and it's easy to set up a business, but you. No one Tells you about all the, all the back work. And as I'm sure you know, it's, yeah, chasing, yeah, chasing invoices and doing taxes and setting yourself up on, you know, as a company, it's, yeah, it's never, it's very daunting. But as I said, you just kind of, you learn on the, you learn as you go, you learn on the job. I think if anyone, I think if anyone knew, you know, if there was like a handbook, I don't, I think it would put a lot of people off working for themselves. It just, it's so overwhelming. So I just think you kind of have to go in, well, you do go in blind and you just, you, you've got to just learn, learn, learn on, learn on the job.

Really what's really interesting about that is exactly you said that I do think a lot of people, if they knew the challenges, they wouldn't do it. And, and to be honest, I think that's why a lot of people, people don't, because they know that they don't know how to run a business. They know, you know, I remember doing my first invoice and I called my dad luckily, who sort of run his own business for me and I said, how do I do an invoice? And he's like, you just created. No idea. And bearing in mind I studied business at university, so I knew finances apparently, but still all of these sort of things and where to find an accountant and how to, and whether you should be limited or not limited, all of these that really you don't get told about until, until you need to know about them. And as you said, is there a sort of beauty in not knowing them? Maybe, maybe there's a beauty in really not knowing how much there is to do because actually I believe it would put a lot of people off. But at the same time I've also seen clients and friends and people who have gone self employed and after one year they've gone, this isn't for me because they've either forgotten to pay tax or they haven't known and then the tax man's come after them with a large bill or, you know, they haven't truly understood what really means to be freelance or running your own business. So it's interesting to hear that those challenges are not siloed just to you, that so many people have really sort of dealt with those challenges. And as you said, we don't get taught. Those at school, I believe keeps a lot of people in nine to five jobs as well.

100 and it's too, it's too risky. Like, people, it's too, I think people just as you said it would just scare them away. Like, yeah, it's easier. If someone's paying you a set amount of money each month, you don't have to think about it. It comes into your bank account, your tax is deducted. Everything's done for you. You know, why would you want to, why would you want to make life more complicated for yourself? You know, why would you want, you know, to worry about having to do your tax return and, you know, your expenses and, you know, why stress yourself out if you don't have to? But as you said, it's, it's not something. Was certainly not something I thought about when I started setting up a business. I just didn't think about these things. Yeah, and an invoice, I was like, what's an invoice? What is it? What do you mean?

What do I need to put on it? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. And even now when I speak to some of my friends, you know, it's just, yeah, it's, it's crazy what you just, you're oblivious of. It's like a whole, it's a whole nother world, you know, you just don't, you don't need to know about it. And why would you. But like you said, I think if, if, if you could see all the work that has to be done and everything that comes with running your business, it just definitely. Yeah, it definitely would pit. Put people off for sure. But you can't, you can't. Yeah, you can't overthink too much. You can't freak yourself out. You just have to, you know, go with it. But I also think, and I'm not saying, you know, you should have to start business when you're younger, but when you are younger, you just, you do what you do have less worry and you do worry less. And I do think if I had set up my business slightly later on in life, maybe I would have been, you know, more apprehensive. Maybe I would have been a little bit more cautious and maybe, you know, but, but when I was 24, I just, you know, I was just like, oh, let's do it. I didn't think I was thinking too far ahead. I didn't think in four years time, I, I didn't, you know, I didn't think where it was going. You know, maybe, yeah, maybe I should have had more of a, I don't know, more of a. Kind of a business plan in my Head. But I didn't. And maybe, but maybe that's why it's working, because I just, yeah, I just took a leap of faith and it's worked.

That leads on very well. My next question around, you know, your career has probably been less conventional than a lot of people's careers. And from your perspective, you know, four years into your agency, running a successful and profitable agency, not necessarily someone who's looking to start an agency or to go into pr, anyone who's looking to, you know, start paving their own path, starting their own business, or even, you know, wanting to do a big career change at this point in their lives, whatever their age. What would be your sort of advice and your lessons that you would want to, to give them on that you've sort of learned along the way?

I would just say, I think if you, if you, if you're genuinely passionate about something and you're good at it, you know, you don't have to be incredibly skilled. But if I do get, and it's so cliche, if you genuinely enjoy something, if you have a hobby or even your job, if you really love it and you know that you're good at it, you can do it. I don't think you, you'll struggle to fail because you just, you don't have an. If you love something enough, you'll make it work. And it just sounds, it's, it just sounds so cliche. But if you, if you really are passionate about something, you'll make it work one way or another. You know, that's, you know, for example, if you're a musician and you love your music, you know this, it comes to a point, well, if it isn't working, you know, and you've, and you've tried it and it's not working, you know, you can make those decisions then. But I think if you really have a burning passion for something, you know, you're good at something, you have to just take that leap of faith. And, you know, if you, if you talk yourself out of it, if you, if you, you know, if you convince yourself that this isn't going to work or I'm not going to make enough money, then you'll never, you'll never succeed because you're, you're, you're almost setting yourself up for failure. I think if you really know that you're good at something and you really are passionate about it, you will find a way to make it work, you know, and if, if, for whatever reason it doesn't, you know, you can always go back to to your job or where you started or, you know, it's not to say it's not forever, you know, it's not like if you make a decision to go freelance, if you make a decision to work for yourself, it doesn't have to be forever, you know, it's not, you know, life and death. You know, you, you can always go back to your job. You can always go back to an officer. It's not, you know, you're not cutting yourself off for the rest of your life. So. And I think if you're already at that stage where you're thinking about it, you're kind of almost halfway there. I think if you're already having, you know, if you're already thinking about setting up a business or you've got an idea, I think you're almost there. It's just having that, you know, that the confidence to take that next step, which that's not a lot of people do.

Yeah, it's very true. I do believe that a lot of people, exactly as you, you said, talk themselves out of something started. And look, I do want to caveat that being able to get up and I'm not saying that this is what you did or what a lot of people being able to get up and quit your job and go and start your own business obviously does come. You know, a lot of privileged people are able to do that.

Yeah.

However, one of the biggest things and the way that you did it, which was, you know, you went from working full time to freelancing to starting your own agency. There was really a start step, step by step that you were able, the sort of less risky path as you said. And I know that a lot of people talk themselves out and say, well, I can't quit my job because of this and I can't do this because actually one of the biggest things is start now. Start while you're in that full time job, Spend a few hours a week, a day, whatever it is that you can commit and start and see what happens. Because a lot of the time when I've seen people starting businesses while working full time, it gets to a point where their business actually starts taking off and they can quit that job.

Yes.

So many people talk themselves out before they even get there, 100%.

I mean, I, in hindsight I would have stayed in my full time job and set up agency on the side, but because I just was so unhappy in the agency I didn't have, I just left without really knowing what was next. I just knew I didn't want to be working in an office anymore in, in that industry, I just knew I had to get out. And I remember when I handed my notice in, everyone was like, oh, where are you going? Like what's your next step? And I just have to make up something. Like I didn't know and I was panicking. Like God, I'm, you know, I think I had like a two month notice period. I thought, you know, I'll find something and that. And then as time was ticking I was thinking, but what am I going to do? And obviously I knew I wanted to continue working, you know, in some, in the industry, in some way, but I didn't know where or how what. I just knew I had to get out this agency, get out this environment. And that's when obviously when I thought freelancing it would give me the freedom to, you know, to kind of test the waters kind of work, be my own, you know, not be my own boss, but I could manage myself, manage my own time and decide what I wanted to do and when and, and then from, yeah, as from freelancing, I, I guess looking back, yes I did, you know, I did it in a, in a step by step. But as I'd like to say that was planned but it wasn't. I just fell into free, like it just, it just, I just fell into freelancing and then obviously I fell into working, you know, what work is myself. But I think had I had the idea to set up an agency, I would definitely start to do that whilst in a job because obviously you have the security, the financial security of a full time job. And then you know, as your side hustle, as you know, people like to call it was it's building up. You can, but it takes a lot, you know, it's a lot to, to work a 9 to 5, you know, physically, mentally or drained and then come home and work on your other age, you know, your other business or whatever that may be. And I've seen so many people do it, you know, they, they, they have, you know, three or four months where they're really going for it and then they just, they can't manage both because it's so tight. You forget how, you don't realize how time consuming it is. Not just, you know, physically but, but you know, it's draining, you know, mentally it's draining trying to be creative, set up a business, think of ideas and then also go, you know, get up and go to your 9 to 5 and then you know, tune into your, to your actual job. But I think if you can. And I think if you, if you, if you have an idea and you, you want, you want to test. Yeah. 100, do it whilst you're in a job and just dedicate a couple of, you know, a couple of nights a week just to, just, to just your business. And if you're passionate enough, it will work. It should work, you know.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a really interesting one, looking back, how over the last kind of three years, because the pandemic really produced such an opportunity and I've seen a lot of people who worked on their side hustles during the pandemic and now life's gone back to normal and they've lost the time for those side. Yes, yeah, exactly. As you said, it's really about creating those hours. Whether it's around when you put your child to sleep and you have an hour in the evening or before your child wakes up, or before you go to your 9 to 5 or during your commute. Whatever it is, it's really about carving out, even if it is those half an hour hour time slots, even if it's on your phone, brainstorming, throwing ideas together on Canva, creating posts, sharing things on Instagram or LinkedIn or whatever it is that you want to start. It's really about pulling down, as you said, those kind of boundaries, those sort of barriers and just going actually for three, four months. Let me really, really focus on this and let me see where it gets to.

Like you said, like, lockdown was such a good example of what, like within, up with, with, with enough time, you, what you can do. Obviously, I know everybody, you know, people were furloughed and, you know, people had all the spare time, but it was amazing to see all these businesses just blossom, just, you know, out of nowhere. And it's, it's quite sad because it's, it's almost like all these people have, you know, there's all these amazing creative people out there. But, you know, it's, it's hard. It's just, there's just not enough time and, and, and, yeah, unfortunately, I wish we. I know. I wish we, I wish we, I wish we could, you know, if I want to say another lockdown, but I, you know, it was just nice to.

See the creativity come out. People love that creativity.

Yeah. What we're capable of, you know, when, yeah. When we're given. Fine. Yeah, yeah. When life is on pause and, you know, go back to base, it's what we can do. And there's also to Counteract that. There's a lot of businesses that were set up during lockdown and are flourishing now and they're doing amazingly well. So, yeah, it was, it was, I mean, for us especially, it was, it was actually a really good time for business because everybody went, was, Was on their phone, you know, everything was online and people had more money to spend. You know, they weren't, you know, brands weren't paying for offices or, you know, over big overheads and they had that extra bit of money for influencer marketing or, you know, social media. So, yeah, as for some, Some businesses, actually, it was, it was a. Yeah, it was a bit, it was a huge blessing. Yeah.

So what's next for you as a business, as a person? Where are you? What are the, what is the next sort of year and beyond look like for you?

I mean. Well, you know, we're growing quite rapidly. We've always been quite a small team. I'm a very small team. But it's got to a point now where we, yeah, we're, we're expand. We are growing. I mean, just before lock, I mean, just before the first lockdown, we were gonna get an office and then obviously lockdown happened and you kind of, you realize what's important. And you know, it wasn't, it wasn't kind of something I, it wasn't on the top of my, of my, of my list to, you know, to, to massively expand. But as, you know, as my agency is growing, so does my team needs to. And, yeah, I mean, it's quite scary in a way because I, you know, we manage, you know, talent day to day. That is, that's our job. And we, we manage people's lives. And then, you know, having to manage, you know, a full team as well, it's, It's a lot, you know, and then manage your own life on top of that. Yeah, it's quite. Yeah, sometimes you, I do sit, you know, it was always just before I go to bed, I'm just sitting my bed thinking, oh, like, you just. I do freak myself out quite a lot. You've got so many people relying on you. You know, like their income is relying on you. And it's. Sometimes it's a lot of pressure. But, you know, we're, you know, I have, in order to grow, I have to expand. You know, it's, you know, you have to, You've got to put in to get out. And I think for a while I've been quite scared to grow. But with growing comes a lot more responsibility. And I think That's. Can be quite scary for me. Like, I'm very comfortable at the moment, and it's, you know, business is going great and I love what. But, you know, there's so much. There's so much more that we can do. There's so much more with so many, you know, there's so much more I need to do and what I want to do and, you know, when I'm nowhere near where I need to be. But it's quite daunting, you know, like, I know where I need to go, I know the steps I need to do to get there, but it's actually taking, again, I guess it's like taking that leap of. It's like taking that first step and. Yeah, it's very. It's. It can be quite daunting. Yeah. Especially when, you know, it's. It's. It's your own business. You know, I haven't got, like, four business partners. You know, I haven't got, you know, it's not. I've got backing from, you know, an investor. It's just me, you know, and it's very. I have to make all those decisions. I have to, you know, come up with these ideas, like, you know, and it's a lot.

Yeah. Yeah, it is a lot. You're right. Yeah, exactly.

It's easy. It's easy to stay, you know, comfortable.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and, you know, you can, you know how. You know your capacity, you know what you can make, but, you know, you've got to. Yeah, you've got to make those. You have to, you know, to grow. You've got to just make those lethal fates. Yeah. And just make those decisions. Some. Some. I, you know, there's some. Some decisions I made that have, you know, haven't paid off, that haven't worked. But it's, you know, some that have. And. And I guess you just don't know until you try.

Yeah, it.

It's all a big. It's all a big. Yeah, it's all a big lesson. Yeah.

And it's interesting to hear you talk about the plans and the growth and as you said, you know, taking that next leap. Every time we get to that next level, there is that next leap to take and there is that big step to take. So. Yeah, even after running successful business for four years, you still get that feeling of, this is a big. And this is a big change.

Yeah, of course, you know, you take. You take, you know, you take one, you know, one step forward and, you know, you think, wow, okay, you know, I've. I've got here. And then there's another. It's just never ending. You know, it's continued. You, you, you make one big win and then you think, oh, that's great. You've ticked that box. Then you want the next big thing and the next big thing and the next job and the next, you know, and it's just. Yeah, it's never ending. But you need that to, to continue, you know, to continue building. You can't be stagnant in stagnant. You have to keep pushing yourself and you have to keep growing and you have to keep taking those, you know, those steps, you know, Otherwise, yeah, you're never gonna grow. But it's. Yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, it can be daunting. For sure. For sure. As I'm sure, as I'm sure you know, as well, you know, starting a business, it's. Yeah, there's no, there's no.

It's not for the faint horses either.

I'm sure. You know, like when you're, you know, when you've gotta. There's no one there telling you to get up in the morning, you know, to get out of bed, and, you know, there's no one pushing you. It's just you against. It's you versus you. You know, you've got your clients waiting for you and, and it's hard. It's really difficult, especially if you're, you know, you know, you're not feeling great yourself. You know, you've got to, yeah, you, you've really got to dig deep and find it in. Within yourself. And I think that takes a lot, you know, and not a lot. That's. Not a lot of people can do that. So I think, you know, you have to give yourself credit.

Yeah, absolutely. So I always ask everyone this question and I think it's always a really interesting one. What would be your one big piece of advice that you would give to the listeners now who are listening to this and thinking, I want to make a change. I want to carve out a career that's sort of a path less traveled. What would be the one piece of. Of advice that you would give to them?

Oh, gosh.

I never warn anyone about this because I like to get a genuine answer.

What would, what would I say? Probably just. I say silly, but just, hey, just what's that book to fill the fear and do it anyway? Is that the same saying? Yeah, yeah, just take that. I just. As I said before, if you have an inkling that you want to do Something, go alone, do it alone, or you have an idea, you're halfway there. Because not everyone gets that desire, you know, to work for themselves or. Not a lot of people have those creative ideas or, you know, so you're halfway there, I think if you're already listening to this or you already got an idea, if you've already got that idea in your head, you're almost halfway there. And just. Just take the leap of faith. You can't. You know, you can't. I wish I knew the. The. The full. The full quote, but it's like saying you. You know, you. When you're driving in the dark, you can't see ahead, but, you know, you just keep driving, you know, you just keep putting, you know, or when you're walking, you just put one foot in front of, you know each other. You. You don't know what's ahead, and you just have to keep going. You just have to keep going forward. And as I said before, if it doesn't work, it's not the end of the world. You know, your life's not gonna come crashing down. If you, you know, you. If you take a risk, if it pays off, it could be amazing. If it doesn't, you can always go back. You can always go back to work, you can always go back to. To what? You know, you can go back to your. Where you started. It doesn't mean it's not the. You're not. You know, you're not cutting. You know, you're not cutting ties forever. You know, it's just. Yeah. Just take. Just take a leap of faith, you know, it might pay off. And I think. Yeah, and I think you really do. If you really enjoy something enough, you really have enough passion for something, then you'll make it work. Yeah. And talk yourself out of things like, you just. You can't. You can't.

I love that. And I think exactly as you said, feel the fear and do it anyway.

Sure. And use that fear to, you know, to motivate you, to spur you on. You know, use it. Utilize it. You know, use those. All those doubters or even your own doubts that. Use that as your, you know, as your. Yeah. As your motivation, your driving force.

Absolutely. Well, Saffron, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. I've really enjoyed learning, obviously, more about your content career. I know I've known you for such a long time, and I don't think we've ever sat down and kind of really spoken your career, so it's been great. To do that.

Oh, thank you for having me. And I'm proud of you as well for doing this because I feel like. Yeah, this is just. I don't know, I feel like this is your calling. You're such a natural, you know, this is. Yeah, yeah. I'm very proud of you as a friend. Very.

Well, look, it's been great to speak with you. It's been truly inspiring to hear a little bit more about your journey. And I'm so excited to watch your agency grow over the years to come.

And to you as well. Thank you.

Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We really hope that you've gained valuable insights into what it takes to carve your own career path. Remember, whether you're an artist, an entrepreneur, or anything in between, there is always a way to pursue your dreams and create a fulfilling career for yourself. The key is to stay true to your passions, be persistent, and never give up on your goals. As always, we want to thank you, our listeners, for joining us on this incredible journey. We look forward to bringing you more inspiring stories in the future. So stay tuned for our next episode. Until then, keep pushing the boundaries, chasing your dreams, and living your most unconventional life. Thanks for listening.