Ep. 28 | Erika Larkin on Her Unique Journey to Becoming a Golf Instructor, Why She Teaches Golf, Her Coaching Philosophy, and More

Foreign.

Welcome to the Urban Golf Podcast. This is Mac here. I'm here with Leo Rooney.

How's it going?

So, Leo, the. The guest we had. I mean, pretty. Pretty interesting, like, kind of getting in with golf instructors and. And, you know, all the different guests we've had on the.

On.

On the show, we haven'. Had very many women instructors. And so, you know, it's something in our industry that's like, pretty. It's pretty obvious, you know, we, out of the, you know, 100 people that apply to a job at UGP, it's 95, 98 men. And so this was something that was really interesting for us because she's an incredible instructor, you know, world class, has her own academy and has and has gone through quite a bit of experience. And so we get into. And she could have done a lot of other things. And so. And we get into, like, why. Why don't you see more women instructors and what's going on there?

Yeah, and I think, you know, I think this is a deep, deeper issue that's complicated and rooted in the traditions and the history of the game, unfortunately. And I think that we. We actually talk about this a lot. Mac. I come from a country that's very, very strong on gender equality. And so that's something that I grew up with and that I want to kind of follow and make sure that we give equal opportunity. And I think in golf, a lot of women that play golf, they stop after college, you know, and they realize, well, the golf industry is, you know, 95% male dominant, and it's just not an attractive industry to go into. It's. It's. I don't think it's. Because it's intimidating. I think it's just like. Yeah, like, we talked about.

We talked about that with Lily. Remember? I mean, Lily, he. We talked about it. She's like, it's just not. It doesn't excite and seem invigorating and fun to go work in an environment like that. And, you know, you know, you talk about coming from a country that's all about gender equality. I grew up in West Texas, in El Paso. And I literally, when I tell people the club I grew up at didn't let women and children. Women and children play until after 2pm on weekdays. So, like, you literally, I mean, it's like, people were like, what? How old are you? I'm like, I'm 35, man. I'm not that old. Like, you know, this was in the early 2000s, late 90s. It's not like that anymore at El Paso Country Club, but they wouldn't let women and children play. I mean, I remember one time, the best girl, her name was Sheila Mendez and she was on a, she was going to go on a full ride to Texas Tech and one of the best, you know, junior golfer girls in the country. And we were going to, me and her were going to go play on a Saturday morning and we had the group all set up and with the big money group and we go and show up to the, to the tee and the pro had to be like, I'm sorry, like, Sheila, you can't play in the group this morning. And she could have waxed us all. And so it's just like, you know, the game. To not say that there's this stuff exists in the game is, is, is totally delusional.

Yeah. And we see that in our business now, you know. You know, I'll bring up one of our coaches, Erica Wang, who started with us just two months ago, has like, performed so well both, I mean, culturally, metrically, any, any variable you look at, she's been such a great addition to our team and she's killing it. And she has a full book already, probably the fastest book any coach in UGP history has filled. And so it's a complete imbalance that needs to change, I think, because I think you just don't know what you're missing when you don't have more diversity, I guess, and more kind of interesting people in this space. Like, because you're, you're, you're limited to one gender. That's, I mean, that can't be good for any industry, I don't think.

Yeah, 100%. And I look, I don't, like, I think about it when I was, you know, growing up playing junior golf and going to these different pro shops and everything and looking at it, it's like you. I didn't want to work in the golf industry either because most of the, most of the guys are all former accomplished players. And then, you know, a lot of them are like, not necessarily wanting to be there. You know, they drink too much, they smoke too much. Like, there was a lot of this stuff where it's like, ah, that doesn't necessarily seem like a, like a fun thing to do. And so in a lot of ways, like, like you said, like, it has to be an attractive culture. We're a healthy culture. We're all about health, we're about wellness, we're about, you know, we actually, we, we're big on etiquette and you know, and treating each other with respect and there's tolerance and all these things that, yeah, like, okay, yeah, yeah, sure, we all do that. Not. Not all organizations do that. And again, when you have an industry that's old and you have it also too built in a way where it's like people joke about the PGA of America being a boys club and stuff like that. So let's not sugarcoat the situation here. We're not going to beat around it here that, yeah, you know, we can talk about Women's Golf and 2.0 and everything else, but it has to be systemic change, you know, from the inside out for us to. To see this different. That's what really liked about our guest Erica Larkin on the pod is, you know, she's. You can see the talent there, and you can see how much people like her are going to really ensure that that goes forward. People like Erica Wang, she's new with us. And how much women in golf is just critical because it adds such a different perspective, especially in the coaching game where you're nurturing and developing golfers. And so I think having it be an equal balance would be an incredible thing for the future of the game.

Yeah. And when you get to know Erica, you realize how incredible she is and how accomplished she is. But the thing is, and that's a problem is, like, Erica is one of the most famous female instructors in the country. And not a lot of regular people have heard of her, but she's done more than a lot of the other accomplished male teachers when it comes to certifications, understanding, technology. And that's the sad thing about it. Her book is great at truswing. I mean, I bought it and shared it around our team, and she's just world class. And so we get into this topic, obviously, in the podcast, and we talk about how to change it and how to improve this. And I think we feel a little bit of a responsibility because we are the fastest golf performance brand in the world, where it's an exciting, fun place to work at. And so we can be that place where it's like, oh, this is cool. This is interesting and fun. I want to go into this. And so hopefully, hopefully that will continue and get better.

Yeah. And I feel like in a lot of ways, like, with women instructors too, they. They don't want to, like, focus on the fact especially they're really good. Like Erica, she doesn't necessarily want to talk about those things either. She wants to talk about, you know, her instruction and her abilities. She doesn't want to dwell on the fact that she's a female instructor. Like, it's like, I'm an instructor, I'm a coach like everybody else.

Like, exactly.

So in a lot of way ways, like, we're the ones pulling that out of her and we want to have those tough conversations because we want to make sure that that is improving and that's going forward and that we have the responsibility around it. Because again, like, if you look at. In mainstream, in the mainstream golf instruction society and who we idolize and who we look towards in a lot of ways, like, I can only think of. I can think of 10 to 12 male names, but I can think about maybe one or two female names that are going to be in the prominent in that way. And that's what we see. It's a 10% ratio in the mainstream. And I think that's a missed opportunity.

Yeah. Yeah. And exactly. You're exactly right. Like, why, why do we, why do we have to talk about that when there's so much else to talk about purely from a golf coaching standpoint? And that's a problem. And so we really appreciated Erica commenting on the show. We don't know her personally. We've never met her. We look forward to. She's in Virginia. She's been the number one teacher in Virginia since 2014. She. She teaches out of a private club over there, and we love what she's doing and really enjoy the conversation with her.

Yeah, enjoy the, Enjoy the pod today, guys, and hope you all have a great day.

Before we get started. Erica, obviously, you know, I've been, I've been following you for a while, and it's weird, right? Like, the east coast golf versus the west coast golf. Like, I'm originally from Sweden, came here in 2011, but it just seems like you're like the best coach in Virginia for sure, and you're the top 50, top hundred, and you're all on these lists. Like, what did you play golf professionally in college? Can you just give us kind of a quick.

Sure. I played golf in College for four years, Division 1, at a place called James Madison University, which is D1 here in Virginia. And I never left Virginia after that. I never went home, back to New York to do any work or anything. I did not play professionally. I left college and just kind of felt like my tournament juices were kind of done. I don't know. I knew I wanted to be in golf. I didn't know I was going to be in coaching. I just knew I wanted to be in the business and the industry. So I started working in marketing and sales for a golf management company, American Golf. At the time they were really big at that time. They had like over 250 courses around the country. So I did that for a while and a colleague of mine at one of the properties that I was stationed at here in Virginia asked me to help him with coaching. And then I got into, I got into teaching and then left the company and started working in at a country club down the street and did the whole apprentice program and then from there just kept teaching and teaching and building my business. So yeah, that was 0203. That's when I graduated college and then really, oh three end of 03 I entered the PGA program and became a PGA member 06 and really had at that point went to a public golf course after I like got my membership and decided I wanted to kind of go off on my own and build an academy at a PG public facility. So I grew that for about six years, tried to relocate a couple bumps in the road and then just fast forward to now. I'm back at a private club, but haven't established regional clientele after all that time.

Yep, that's really impressive.

Thanks.

And so now when you're in one spot and you've been there for five years, what do you focus most of your time at? Are you coaching most of the time or is it other dudes as well?

No, I'm a director of instruction at this private club. We're a high end club. The club's only about 10 years old and I'm the first director of instruction they hired because they were pretty small and as they've grown and the membership has grown, they decided it was time to bring on a teacher. So I was lucky to get that spot and they allowed me to bring in my, all my guests, all my outside clients. So there was really no problem, no float, you know, no issue with any keeping my momentum going. And I just added a lot of the members that were already in property to my client list. So yeah, it's been really good. They are looking to continue to grow junior programs. So I stepped in and tried to rehash what we were doing with that and it's grown a ton. We have junior league now and so, you know, definitely have taken over the junior golf stuff and embraced and employed the assistance to help me. We have interns in the summer, so our program is really growing. The club has grown a lot over the last five years and we'll still, you know, we're not quite at a Full membership yet. We're getting there. We're pretty close. We'll never be a big, big club. We have 18 holes, and I think they want to cap at about 240 memberships for golf. And so it'll be a little on the smaller side, but that's good because I can still bring in whoever I want to teach at any point, so.

So, yeah, can you talk to us a little bit about kind of your. How you. How it started? Because we love to talk about kind of people's journeys into golf, the golf industry as a whole, because obviously we are trying to find golf coaches pretty much all the time as we grow. And unfortunately, I mean, your story is fairly uncommon. Right. Like, can you talk to us about, you know, going into the golf industry but then pivoting into instruction, which is fairly rare?

Yeah. When I decided to become a PGA professional, it was because I knew that I wanted to be a certified teacher. You know, that was the reason why I pursued my PGA certification, not to become a head pro. I already knew going into it that the end game for me was to become a full time teacher. So it was just a matter of time. The pivot point of why I got interested in teaching was again, a colleague that really invited me to start teaching some beginner classes with him because I knew enough to do that and he needed help. And I just had such fun coaching these beginners. And he encouraged me to take my playing ability test and just get enrolled in the PGA program. And when I looked into what that was going to take, and the fact that I obviously needed to do that amidst an environment that was a little bit more like a country club under a true head professional and go through the accreditation and all that, you know, I did what was required and I certainly stepped up. I was a first assistant for a couple years and did all the necessary things, but I taught as much as I possibly could on and off the clock. So I just was. That was what my passion was. And it was good because, you know, being in the shop and having an off season and obviously having a salary, being an assistant and things, it helped me take some time to really learn how to teach. And so I think being an assistant, going through the process, as opposed to not having done that, it would have been a lot more intimidating to just jump on the lesson t full time and try to make a living. So the fact that I was an assistant for a few years and kind of had that buffer of a professional above me that could answer questions and, you know, give me, well rounded Opportunity to be in the business and explore the different roles that I could play. That was a good thing to do. So I think it was a healthy opportunity and experience to be a full assistant professional before I actually made the leap to teaching full time, even though, again, I knew in the back of my head that's what I wanted. So the more I was responsible for the entire junior program at that first country club and ran the ladies classes and. And ran the ladies program every Tuesday morning and did tournament operations and saw how the whole system worked, I was just more encouraged that the area I wanted to focus was less in operations and more in teaching. So it just snowballed. And I think that what I was able to create with a lot of the players at the country club gave me confidence. And the club paid for my education for to become a PJ professional. So that was another bonus. And they also, you know, certainly backed me up for other opportunities educationally, travel. So it was just a great place to start in that environment as opposed to trying to do it on my own or again, jump into just some teaching academy and, you know, throw it, throw it into the fire. So I think that I got my feet wet. I built my confidence. I learned a lot on my own. I explored teaching styles and philosophies out there that I was interested in. So because I didn't jump into, say, working for a top 100 coach, I wasn't pigeonholed into one way of thinking. I just looked on the Internet. I, you know, bought. We bought technology at the club that I messed with. And I bought. Bought stuff myself, training aids and all different things, and just tried to figure out what I liked and what worked for me and what worked for my students. And if somebody was coming through town, like Lynn Blake came through town one year, one winter, somebody hosted him, and I went and did his seminar. And all of a sudden I spent a year and got to understand golf machine better and, you know, asked him a lot of questions. And then another year, Michael Breed came to town and I, obviously, he was big at the time, had just started his show on Golf Channel, and certainly, you know, followed him for a while. Like, there's always going to be somebody that comes through your area. Luckily, in the Mid Atlantic section, we have a lot of educational opportunities. And so I was just exposed to a lot of great teachers here and there. And when I found something I liked, I would just make the effort to explore that a little bit more and at the same time, try to go back and do my own research, you know, Revisit my own library of books over the years and read things and try to decipher what it was that I liked to teach and what I believed in. So it just became a big blend, a big experiment, and I had to come up with some structure and a system, especially when I moved from the private club to a public facility where I was. The plan was to build an account, build out an academy, and, you know, putting together programming and having a couple of mentors help me with the logistics of that was really the next step. So I had to get my business hat on and my marketing hat on again and just, you know, I already had the basic teaching fundamentals down. That part was the easy part. But really trying to figure out how I was going to grow programming and market myself in the community and make my footprint at the facility and put signage up and all of those things. So again, just learning on the fly, tried to tackle the business side of things as I grew my own brand in my area at this public golf course. And it took me a couple years, but I established myself really well. Added staff, just like you guys are doing. You know, I mean, it takes a little while to grow everything, but I did it in baby steps. I did it when it was appropriate. I didn't jump in and all of a sudden hire five people to teach with me. I grew the demand and when the demand was there, I added staff and was able to reinvest in myself. Bought a flight scope. You know, little by little, just added technology, added branding. We got more things, shirts printed and signs made and all that kind of stuff that you do when you're trying to grow a business. So it was a really good experience for me to do that. And I was in my probably late 20s, early 30s and also getting ready to start a family. So it was a lot going on personally, professionally, all at once. And I had fun doing it. I got back into the private club and am now coaching again. In that setting, it's a lot different than running your academy in a public facility. But that move was for me, an interesting one. Right. So I had.

And so how with the academy, how. What was it called? And how many staff did you have in the end? And was it like fully fledged academy?

So we, we were at a golf course called Stonewall Golf Club. It was a, it's a public golf course here in Gainesville, right where I live. And a high end daily fee, nice driving range, short game area, just right outside the clubhouse. Logistically, very easy to get people through there. Busy place for Play. And so just the eyeballs of everybody being there, you know, and seeing me teach literally right on the front of the driving range, got some interest and a lot of families in the area, so it was easy to grow junior program. We did not have a physical facility. There wasn't space enough to do that where the range was, although I was lobbying for that to be built, whether it was by me or the facility, but it didn't happen. In the time I was there. I was hoping that we could make it work, but it didn't happen. So we literally outgrew the facility. So we had several hundred juniors, you know, that were circling through the facility on any given week and summer week with camps and all that spring, summer, fall programming. We started PG Junior League around that time and launched the team in our facility. And then I started the league in our area. Geographically, we were the first ones to adopt that, certainly adult classes, private lessons. I had five teachers, not all of them were full time. So I had like two full time teachers and an intern, a summer intern. And between like the four of us, we ran all the programs, private lessons, camps, clinics, and hosted seminars here and there and things like that too. We involved the staff as well, like some of the assistants that were hourly and even some of the outside staff. When we needed extra hands, we just pulled from whatever, wherever we needed, wherever we could do to make it work.

Erica, where did the. I love your story and just kind of just how you've, like you talked about going through the ups and downs and doing some of the menial work that it took you to do what you really love to do, which was to teach.

Yeah.

And how you are taking all of these different experiences, versatile experiences, and seeing the, seeing the ways that you could apply them to what would eventually be what your dream was to be coaching and doing that. So. And at the beginning of your story, you said, you know, your goal was to teach golf. What, what, why is that? Why was your goal to teach golf? What was. So what made that become something that you wanted to make your life's work about?

Well, if we rewind way back in time, I was primarily self taught as a golfer. My parents were not golfers. We learned as a family. So we literally went out to a little pitch and putt course, started playing the game and just figured it out. Never had many formal lessons. I had like five lessons from a guy maybe two years into learning, revisit some fundamentals and that was pretty much it till I was much later on as a teenager and getting ready to go to college. I had hooked up with a pro in the area who mentored me through the college process. So the fact that we were pretty much self taught as a family, I think that cultivated an interest in understanding the golf swing, experimenting with different ideas, what worked, It's a lot of that trial and error and we enjoyed the process. So for me, I think I've always just been a learner. I enjoy learning why and how, and I want to do it the right, the quote, unquote, right way. I think I had a lot of encouragement early on that I moved well, I was athletic, I was coordinated, and for that I was encouraged to stick with it. I had some success as a junior girl at that time, winning tournaments in my area, which in the northeast. There wasn't a lot of us. But I felt that if I could pursue it, there was opportunity as a female in golf, especially looking ahead to college. And so it all worked out that I stuck with it. I did well enough to play in college, but throughout college, you know, I went to college thinking I would get more coaching and my game would elevate to the next level, whatever that would be. And it really didn't happen. I kind of, you know, I plateaued. And the coach was a coach, he wasn't a teacher. So I didn't really improve in college. I mean, just for sheer determination, I obviously stuck with it and did okay. And some tournaments were better than others. But I wouldn't say I improved in college, which is a shame because that's a lot of time and energy you put into that. So again, when I left school, I knew that I was kind of done competing. I didn't really have the drive, nor did I feel I was good enough to play professionally. And the fact that I knew I just wanted to be in golf and when the opportunity came to try teaching, it came very naturally because again, I had done so much self exploration. And even though I didn't have personally the success maybe I had hoped at one time, I already had so much knowledge about the golf swing just from doing so much homework myself. That became easy to deliver that to somebody else. I still had to learn how and what information was the right information for the person standing in front of me. You know, that's part of learning how to coach and teach. But I did know enough. And when I think of it, I used to do my own swing analysis. Whenever the first videos were video camera camcorders, you know, were out when I was young, we filmed ourselves, we watched the playback. When I worked at A golf course. When I was going through college, the guy had a neat system, which was one of the original draw the lines on the screen, the old bigger PCs that we had at the time. And I was obsessed with. I was obsessed with that thing. And this was way before I ever decided I would teach golf. So I just always liked golf swing. I was the. I was the kid that clipped out the magazine articles and made a binder, and I liked looking at magazines, golf magazines, and idolized what I was looking at, meaning the players, the teachers. I just thought golf was cool. And again, maybe those seeds were planted, like way back. So when the opportunity came and get hands on and actually coach and it meant something, it came easy. I liked it. I had fun seeing that improvement, that aha moment the student has where you can make an impact and they start hitting it better. They come back, they give you that positive feedback that they're playing better, they understand things better. I just think that I really enjoyed the process of helping people. So I just moved forward with it and felt I could have a fun and good career teaching golf if I was going to be in golf. That was something I really wanted to do, and that has never changed. So the love for learning and the love for swing analysis and helping people and still having those moments on the lesson tee where you get that positive feedback, or the person follows up with you and says they had their best round or writes you a note and said how much better they putted or whatever, they won a tournament. Those are the reasons why I coach.

No, that's really great. And you talk about just, like, curiosity, independent thinking and passion and how you're able to have those outlets through teaching the game. And I think more people, More people going into the game that way, like you said, you have to almost naturally gravitate towards it. You said it almost caught you, like, oh, this is what I should be doing.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I love golf swing. I'm not a golf nerd. The guy was always a golf nerd. Whether I wanted to have been.

That's awesome. And you said you learned the game, like, with your family, you know. Can you talk about that a little bit more? I was reading on your bio, just you have an interesting background.

I grew up in Queens, New York, and that's not a golf destination by any means. We have about four or five municipal courses, city courses, and, like, one driving range. So we had to really seek out golf. It so happened that we were going a lot, we traveled a lot, just literally by subway for, you know, 10 minutes in the car to Shea Stadium. We'd go see Mets games. And we were into tennis when I was younger, just as a family recreational sport. And so playing tennis in Queens, you'd have to go to public tennis courts. And those were some of the closest ones to us were in Flushy Meadow park, where Shea Stadium is, and the US Tennis Center. So we would go to those courts and. And right across, literally, from where the public courts are, was the entrance to the pitch and putt. So it was just happenstance that that was there, and we discovered it existed. And when my parents decided that we would try it, literally, like, let's try this pitch and putt thing one day. It just. We had fun. We didn't know what we were doing. We rented some kind of random pitch putter and pitching wedge, I guess they gave us and tried it. And that became then another recreational family activity that we did. And I was an only child, so I just went along with whatever they were gonna do. So whether it was tennis or golf or fishing or whatever, I was just along for the ride, and I never protested. I was up for anything. So we had fun doing that. We played pitch and putt for almost two years before we ever bought a real set of clubs. So the fact that we stayed and did that, and I was 8, 9 years old at the time, was probably the best thing that could have ever happened to me in golf. Because it was encouraging as a small, you know, a kid to have success and feel like you could make pars on a short course where everything was 30 yards, 50 yards. The longest hole on that course is 80 yards and two clubs. Right. So you didn't have to know about equipment, just figure out how to chip it around. So short game was great. Lots of practice with short shots, controlling club face, figuring out how to get it out of the grass different ways. The tee boxes were AstroTurf mats. And so even if you hit it fat or something, you could still have success. Right. We learned in a really great environment and didn't have too much failure. If you hit a bad shot, how bad could it be with a pitching wedge? I remember there was some chicken wire, like fencing on the right hand side of one strip of the course that separated the boundaries from the course to the soccer fields in the park or something. And maybe once in a while you hit one over there. So you start out with two or three balls, just in case. But I mean, you couldn't really lose the ball other than that, so it was great. And I think within two Years we were all figuring out how to score well enough in that environment that I guess it gave us the confidence. Like I guess we're ready for the big. We used to call it the big course. So we would go to the range and again, I don't know if you rented clubs in the beginning or what, but I remember splitting a set with my mom. So we bought this lady set, had graphite shafts at the time and I don't even know what brand. It was something low end. And she took half and I took half. And then we like, you know, shared this set because it was probably her size at the time. Maybe I was 10, 11 years old. I remember we would rent, pull carts and go play. There was an executive course near my grandmother's house. We played and that was the next step up. And then we played a full 18 hole course a few times in the city and walked and I don't even. I guess again my parents figured it out enough and I went along with it that we just made it work.

It's such a nice story because it's like you just realize how introducing the game with these pitch and putt courses, these small courses, all in these major cities, that it's a great way for families to connect. They can all learn the game together. I love that story.

I really, really wish there were more pitch and P putts. I think that we saw a lot of them go away in the last 15, 20 years or more because of development. Even in this area here and the country club that I was working at in the early 2000s, we had a great driving range and par three course right next to our country club. And they bulldozed it and built houses. Right. So that's one less par three. Now in our area there's still one or two, but they're far and a few between. I wish there were more because of my start in it. And I just think they're such a great learning pad for new players and for juniors. And they're fun and it's quick. And now you start to see them coming back at Pinehurst. They have the cradle and there's some other resort courses that are doing this now on purpose, which is really smart because it now provides an entertainment value near the clubhouse, something manageable that's fun to do, a 19th hole kind of environment. And I think it's really, really smart. Plus it's game and game player development oriented.

And Erica was. Erica, was it. Was it competitive between you and your parents? Yeah, like, yeah. So, like was that, you know, how soon were you competing?

Pretty soon, within that first year. You know, maybe it wasn't the total 18 hole score, but it was on. On holes, almost more match play. Ish. Right? We would try to beat my dad on a hole or whatever it was. We'd play for ice cream. They would set a goal for me, and if I maybe broke a certain score or had a certain number of pars, there was a prize, some bribe or. I don't know.

I know the drill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was. It was great. I remember then going to what was a super busy driving range in Queens to practice with my mom and having to wait, you know, for a stall because it was so busy. And when we finally got our spot to hit, we would share a spot until maybe a second one might have opened up. And there'd always be people hanging around. These old men would come by and offer tips to me, hey, you have a good swing butt. You should try this, you know, and it's like having to sort through the nonsense that people would tell me, I think also made me question my own swing. What worked, what didn't work. I would try stuff sometimes that random people would tell me and realize it was garbage. And so it was always that we would go out and play, and my dad didn't always play with us if he was working. So my mom and I would play a lot on our own, and we'd get paired up with random people. Sometimes people that didn't speak English because we were in Queens or, you know, people that did and just thought that they needed to coach us around the golf course because we were, I don't know, a mom and a daughter that looked like we didn't know anything. It was always so funny to get through the first two holes with people that you don't know in our situation because we would always surprise them that we could actually play. So, yeah, by the. By the turn, they were like, oh, okay.

That'S awesome. Did you end up teaching your parents when you became, like, later on when.

I became an actual student, yeah, when.

You became an instructor, Yeah, I think.

It started before that. I think, you know, when I played well enough as a junior golfer that I went in some tournaments or, you know, knew enough to shoot lower scores. My mom and my dad would ask for tips at that point, like, I knew something. And so, yeah, maybe again, the coaching was always there and I just didn't recognize it. I think that when I first. I remember when I was doing a lot of continuing education when I was an assistant Professional at that country club. And I. One of the first things I did after I got my membership was I did TPI. This was 2007. Six, seven. When that really first was coming.

Launching early days.

Early days. Well, they were from this area. Dave Phillips and Greg Rose created a facility much like your guys, is now called Club Golf. And. And so ClubGolf was the original one stop shop indoor practice facility. They had 3D. They had a workout guy. They had, you know, they had it all right. So I would. I went up and saw those guys and then proceeded to do the Level 1 certification just soon thereafter. So I remember using my parents as guinea pigs when they would come visit or if I was home visiting them for all kinds of stuff. And then soon after that, then my husband. Right. But, you know, I just was always trying stuff on them or when we would go play, I would coach my parents. Yeah. So, yeah, definitely coach them.

Eric, I'm curious, when you were talking earlier, like, I didn't want to go work for a top 100 instructor and I wanted to build my own identity and coaching. How did you have that awareness? I went to IMG Academy and went to Ledbetter Academy and sort of was a burnout in that process. My question is, how did you know? Like, hey, I want to build my identity. I want to pick and choose what I'm learning here versus I want to go adopt a system and then learn the system and then maybe go build my own system. How did you know that you wanted to go pick and choose and go through that process to develop your identity in coaching?

It was. It just happened. I didn't make a conscious choice about that. I had already met my husband. We were living in Virginia. There wasn't a top 100 instructor. I shouldn't say that. There was one guy in Maryland, I think at the time that might have been a top 100 instructor, but he was at a private club and far enough away that it wasn't an option to go commute up there and work. So I was already feeling settled in this area. I wasn't gonna pick up for the sake of my career at that point in time and move to Florida to go work for like a Jim McLean. It just wasn't in the cards. I guess I could have, but I chose to just on my own time do that research and try to again, go visit people or shadow when I could or when they came through town, take advantage of the seminars and the continuing education when it was convenient. So it wasn't a conscious that I said I don't want to work for a top 100. If there was a guy down the street and it made sense, I probably would have done that, you know, or at least spent a lot of time there if I didn't work for that person. It's a nice way to get into teaching, but again, I guess ignorance is bliss. I went through the process on my own and then was able to, like you said, independently, sort through a lot of things that I found and liked and gravitated to what made sense to me. And I think that was a healthy process for me. When I look back on it, it might have been the long road. I might have been able to get, I don't know, more success sooner on the lesson tee had I gone a different route. But it was organic, and it's. That's my story. That's just the way it is.

Also, priceless experience with that academy sounds like anything from, you know, from the business side of it to growing a team to manage people. I mean, that's more than. Than 97% of the industry does ends up doing. You know, you mentioned kind of the transition between the academy and then going to a private club. You said it was an interesting process.

Sure.

What was that about?

Well, I outgrew the facility that I was at. I was telling you I wanted to build a teaching learning center, like some kind of a shelter. I knew I needed an office space if I was going to have more staff. We had a lot of storage. I had a little stupid shed on the driving range that was full of stuff. Like, I just felt like I was outgrowing it. And. And when we had classes, we would take over the short game area. There was no room for the general public to practice. So the head, the general manager, you know, pulled me aside a few times and was like, erica, you have to leave, like, at least one hole on the putting green open for the general public. You can't take over the whole facility. I said, all right, well, yes, I understand. And we would try to make accommodations to get everybody happy, but it was time to move on. So there was an opportunity that came up right down the street. A golf course was being sold and taken over by some local business people. And there was an opportunity to basically move my academy there and grow and build what I wanted from scratch, like, with the help of these owners. And so I made the decision to move. And within that calendar year, unfortunately, you know, you learn things the hard way sometimes, but I didn't get the contracts that I should have. But at first so things were not in writing as they should have been, promises were not kept, and unfortunately, things fell apart with their relationship with the owners. So the intentions, my intentions were all in the right place and unfortunately it just didn't. It didn't work out. So I was put in a really tough situation because I couldn't stay there at that point in time. So I had to decide what I was going to do. I finished the season out at another local facility that was really nice enough to just let me, you know, finish out there. It was a mess. I had, like, a terrible year. 2015 was not a good year. I shouldn't say that, because we made do and it was a good learning experience, but it just was a good bump in the road. And sometimes those things point you in a new direction that's meant to be, right? So I have to say that it was like. Felt like such a mess and I was so disappointed and I was so annoyed that it didn't work out because I had put all this time and energy to building my business and, you know, having the staff and bringing everybody along and relocating and changing all the signs and like, it was just all these things that were so stressful and then having all my clients move twice with me. And I. And I just finally said something is just not feeling right about this. And I'm way too. I'm overwhelmed by the whole process. I want to try to find a home where I can be with my teaching, hopefully long term. I don't want to be moving around. I don't know what this is going to look like. And I just was. Was in a really weird place that at the end of that season. So I told my staff that they should look into other opportunities, that I would be there to support them and try to help with whatever I could to help them move on. But I just didn't want them to be waiting on me to make a decision. So we were at the end of a season, it was wintertime, and two of the guys went south and so forth. So at the. Through the winter, they all found opportunities that I was, you know, happy about for them. And I was sort of free to make a decision. And it was just back to me. It was back to me. And I had to decide if I was going to take. At the time, I was calling it Larkin Golf Learning Community. So that was my brand, Larkin Golf. And so I was trying to decide if I was going to then put. Try to find a home for Larkin Golf and rebuild or do something different. And when I explored and we weren't. It wasn't. The option was not to move geographically again. I have a husband with a job, we have kids in school, we have family here. So I wanted to stay in Virginia. So what are the options? I approached several private clubs in the area to see if they were looking for teachers, Creighton Farms being one of them. And that's what ended up working out. So one door closes, another one opens. Creighton Farms. Several years before that, there was word on the street they might hire an instructor. And it was a really desired location for a teacher to want to be because it's a high end private. Definitely plans to build a learning center. Just really great driving range, practice facility, golf course. Amazing. Jack Nicklaus signature. He comes on property a couple times a year. There's like a lot of reasons why you'd want to be at Crean Farms. So the deal was that every teacher I knew that had looked into try to teaching there, everybody was told that they wouldn't be able to bring in any outside students. So as luck would have it, I approached them and I pitched an idea that I could come in, but that I would obviously want to bring in my clients from the area. And what's lucky is that they had a new GM right around this time. So he had a fresh set of eyes on what he wanted his vision for the facility to look like. The head pro had turned over that previous calendar year. I knew the head pro, so it was just a good. And I knew several members at the club. So I had three or four people all vouching for the fact that Erica would be a great fit here. So it just. The timing was really good that it worked out that I could move there. And for me, the idea of going back into private, but with the option of still having the chance to teach outside guests was the perfect fit. I knew that it would be a little more laid back. I knew that they didn't have a massive junior program that I was inheriting. So I could take a little time to decide what I wanted to do with all the big group stuff that I was so involved with before. So it was kind of this big weight lifted off my shoulders. I felt like I had a fresh start. I could really decide how I wanted to spend my energy. And over the winter that preceded my start at Creighton Farm, so I ended a mess of a year and then I was going to be starting there. I decided that I was going to write a book. And so knowing that that was on the horizon and it was A project I wanted to do that I hadn't had time to do up to this point. I felt like being at a private club, having more of a kind of a, again, a quieter schedule, no business responsibilities other than my own calendar. It just allowed me so much more time to focus internally on what I really wanted to do, which was teach, write, produce content. All these things that I didn't have time to do before because I was so tied up in just running my day to day operation and managing staff and giving lessons and having a family. So taking that whole load off and focusing back on just teaching and, and content was a huge change. And now that has brought me to where I am, which I'm very happy with. Growing on social right, having finished, completed my book, trying to you know, produce a lot more content regularly and other platforms. So it's been a really, really good turn for me to get to this point where I am. But it didn't, there was stress for a while there to figure that out.

Hearing you, just hearing, hearing you describe your story, Erica, makes me just want to get in my car and just drive due east or something. You know, we got 40 employees, I got three little kids and we're just, it's like, it's like you said, it's a lot of weight and there's a lot of politics and a lot of business dynamics. It's just so funny. I mean I went into the industry of coaching and find myself as a business owner and it's, there's so I'm constantly talking about psychology and people's like life schedules more than I'm talking about actual instruction and there's just so much that goes into it like when you're managing other people and you're responsible with the politics and dynamics of clubs and academies and out. You know, public golf courses are semi private or private if you don't have that establishment, which takes a long time to find a nice safe place where you can teach, where you can focus on growing yourself, where you know, you can actually invest in yourself and invest in your craft versus constantly be juggling a lot of balls. And I think that's what we try to do with our business is provide that safe place where a young professional can focus on their craft and you know, focus on writing and teaching and, and all the infrastructure is provided for because that's, that's really heavy, heavy stuff to deal with.

Yeah, I was probably not the best delegator I think I was, started that academy. I was a little younger too, just trying to do so much myself. And looking back on it now, if I was to do it over again or in the future, if I decide that it's time to, you know, maybe reb a legitimate academy somewhere, you know, on my own, like, I would. I would do it differently. So I learned a lot. And when you're young, you don't know and you have a ton of energy and you just grind it out. And I was a perfectionist in some ways, so I wanted to do it myself my way. It wasn't good enough unless I did it. And so I think I would do a lot more delegating next time around and hire people to do certain things that I know I have the skill set to do, but it's just not worth my time, especially if I know where I want to spend my time. And management's a skill. Right. So, like managing your staff, training your staff. I was confident enough in my teaching that I could tell my young professionals that were working for me what I thought they should be doing. But I think I would do it differently next time. I would have a better, real training program to put my assistants through. I didn't really have that organized. You know, when I listen to top coaches, how they run their academies, and again, I say Jim McLean just because he's so well known and certainly Ledbetter, the processes that they have in place to mentor young teachers are awesome. Like, I. You know, and that's what, as a smaller, bustling operation, I just didn't have the time and energy to do that or have those processes in place or even know what kind of processes I wanted to have. So now I would know. Now I would know.

Well, and like you, Erica, like you said, I mean, it's like, really. I mean, we've gone through it. We've probably gone through about 190, 100 employees. We have 40, and it's been seven, eight years, growing the business from a small investment. So we've constantly had this turnover in this process of like, oh, we gotta evolve, we gotta evolve, we gotta evolve. And it's mostly through failure, mostly through working, doing it wrong with people.

Yeah.

And that's really how you evolve. And it's painful and it's difficult, but, you know, Jim McClain's first apprentice, or Ledbetter's first apprentice or Mac O' Grady's every apprentice he ever had, you know, didn't work out very well.

Right, right. Yeah. And I think that there's something to be said for hiring good people, like being a good judge of people and hiring Somebody that has great people skills. Right. That's first and foremost hard to find, but maybe the most important thing when you're looking to hire a coach. I was really lucky that. But the people that I hired that worked for me through those years were great people, people, people. And so it was a matter of me watching them teach, or if they were on the sidelines or we were coaching together, just having the confidence that they were saying things the right way. Their bedside manner was really good, and their customer service was really good. And at the end of the day, they were growing as a coach and a teacher underneath me and with me. And I trusted that their information was good. For the most part, we would talk on the side, and I would ask them questions, or we'd talk about some mutual student and what their swing was doing or what we wanted to fix. And for the most part, I felt like if I was on the same page with these people, then it was fine. But there was no structure in terms of continuing training with them. And again, I think I would do that differently, maybe down the road, but it worked out. I just got lucky hiring really, really good people.

So I have a question around that is, you know, I can tell talking to you, that you have really great interpersonal skills, but also this incredible drive and learning, right. And education. I mean, you're writing a book, you have all these certifications, and you love the golf swing. That combination is pretty rare, unfortunately. What would you say to a young professional that are getting into the game and maybe are kind of leaning one way on those two ends? Like, what would you recommend? What resources would you recommend to someone that is trying to improve interpersonal skills and the technical side of coaching?

Oh, man.

Big subject.

Yeah.

Do you think you got your interpersonal skills just from your family and the people that you work with, or did you train it?

That's a great question. A lot of it was instinctual. I think I had good presenting skills, language skills, and things like that. Just from school and going through really good high school, college, I was never afraid to present. I did performing arts as a young kid, too. I was on stage, I danced, I did plays, I did drama. So, like, I kind of knew already in terms of presenting myself how to do that. So that's just. That just happened. That's just a bonus. I think that watching good coaches coach, definitely spending a lot of time shadowing, if you have that opportunity, do it, because you can then model that behavior, that language. I find that when I watch a good coach coach, or if I was At a seminar, I just. I would write down nuggets of things the way somebody would say something, and I would try to write it down. And then maybe in that next week or two, I found myself maybe using that. Right. And over time, you have these little pieces, these little nuggets, and they eventually become yours. You own them and you give credit. Give credit where credit's due. I mean, I'm in a lesson sometimes, and I'll say something and I'll credit the teacher that I might have gotten it from. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, because maybe I even forgot where I got it from. It's so long ago, and I've really owned that nugget, you know, So I don't know. I think watching coach as coach is probably the best way to become a coach, to be honest. Another thing that I would probably, if I could, like, go back and do something more earlier on in my career is, you know, reading more and watching certainly classes and stuff online now. There's so many options, but neuro, linguistic programming and hypnosis. My husband actually is really into some of that stuff just as a hobby and kind of piggybacking off of stuff he's learned in conversations we had. There's so many ways that you can communicate to get across to somebody. And key words and the way you say something and how you say it and how you present it and, you know, obviously pulling emotion from people. Drawing, drawing. Creating. Helping somebody create emotion is very important. It's like an art, right? It's a skill.

Yeah.

So.

Well, it just sounds to me like, Erica, like. I mean, it's my. My. My mom's a chef and a horticulturist and stuff. And then my. My dad's a doctor and a pediatrician, so. And then Leo's parents were both chefs, and then his mom's now a physical therapist. So we're like. When you're talking, you're like, oh, dance and drama. And then my. You know, I read your dad was a chef, and I'm like. Like, it's almost. There's this base. And then everything you're talking about is that you called it the bonus, but it was actually the base, the foundation. And then everything else you've accumulated along the way has been sort of these bonuses and these additions.

Yeah.

And it's because when we hire someone for coaching, it's like, if they don't have that base, that foundation, that deeper. Why, it's tough to say, hey, now, start caring about people just because you're a good golfer doesn't mean you're going to necessarily be a great coach. Yeah, you have to have a care for people and a curiosity and a presentation format and things that you've sort of seen along the way. It's tough to kind of come into it.

I think one good model that I had, I know I say I was primarily self taught, but a mentor of mine that helped me kind of just before the college era, he was a guy that we didn't do a lot of. He didn't do a lot of teaching. He pointed me in the right direction of, hey, read this book, read that book. Or he became the head coach of the St. John's men's team in New York. So he would come practice with the team. It was. He was a guy that was inclusive and he was a guy that would follow up with me as a friend. He was obviously a PGA professional in the Met section, Frank Darby. But he, he would reach out, call my house on the phone right at that time. He would send me handwritten notes in the letter, handwritten letters in the mail. If he went to Florida in the off season, which he did, he would follow up with me. Postcards, how you doing? Working on your game? Like, he was just. He cared, you know, so to have somebody care about you that's not your family is a really big deal. And I think that the example he set of how he would follow up with me after he knew I had played in a tournament. Nowadays we would text message our students, right? That's the modern day version of what Frank would do to me or how'd you shoot? Send me your scorecard? Like, let's talk about it. He was that guy, which was great. He was an ear to talk to, but I just knew somebody had my back out there. He cared. So I think that that was a great example that when I did finally make the decision to be a coach, I always knew, like, I want to try to pass that on too. I want to make sure people know I care about them, about their game, like legitimately, and then about them as a person, because that made a difference to me. So, you know, definitely for the younger juniors that I teach, girls, but, you know, the adults too, everybody needs that little, like, pat on the back and that little follow up. So I always try to make an effort to follow up because of Frank.

I think you bring up a great point going back to what you said about shadowing and taking notes that are focusing on interpersonal skills and the delivery and the language and the key Words and the word choice. Because I think a lot of times it's so easy to get caught up in what drill are they doing and are they hitting the ball better or worse. And we know that hitting it better in one session actually doesn't really mean learning long term and all these things. And so I think that I totally agree with you is like if you do, you can do 10 sessions in a row shadowing a top coach and literally only focusing on their body language, their appearance, their delivery, and then just disregard from the technical coaching. Because we know that you can have a technical coach do a great session technically and the student will never come back because there is no connection.

Right.

And so, and so I think that's a great point and something that we work on a lot.

Yeah, I think I probably had, I probably had early success teaching more because of that than how good of a lesson I was giving. Meaning that my technical advice may or may not have been sound at the time. Those first few years I was really giving lessons. I mean, I'm sure I gave some bad advice and stuff. I would never say now just because I maybe didn't know any better. I was just throwing straws at the wall. But. But how you say it and selling whatever it is that you say is important and getting them on your side and making sure they know that you have their back is a big deal. And the follow up, I've always gotten compliments my whole career. Thanks so much for sending that email after the lesson with the notes. Now it's all these apps that we have and sending the video, voice analysis and whatever it is that follow up means so much to people that I think that that's. That bedside manner that's really, really important. And in the lesson, making sure the student leaves feeling good as much as possible. Not every lesson goes perfect. They're not going to be striping it every time they leave, but making sure they feel good when they leave.

Yeah. Yeah. So a technical question. You know, we talk about this a lot. We have like in our facilities, we have that TPI picture of Shane Lowry, Jim Furyk and Dustin Johnson. And they all have, you know, their aesthetics look so different. And we, we also have a painting, kind of a drawing of a person that has too many swing thoughts. So our philosophy is kind of minimizing swing thoughts and realizing that aesthetics doesn't always correlate with performance. What, what are your, what is your philosophy on aesthetics when it comes to the gossiping? Do you think that there is, to a certain degree, needs to Be a certain aesthetic to reach performance, or do you think it's all about just the outcome?

Well, the outcome's pretty damn important. Right. But how people get it done, I think at the high levels, you see some outliers that have unique moves and obviously make it work at a high level. And it's not always stuff you would coach somebody to do. Right. Bubba's always the example. Or a Jim Furyk. You're not going to coach somebody to swing like Jim Furyk if they're a new golfer. How did he end up that way? It came natural to him and it worked. Right. He was able to coordinate that movement over time in a very consistent way. So to answer your question, if I'm trying to coach somebody and they have a high level of skill and a unique move, I'm probably not going to change their, the DNA of their swing and try to figure out where the miss is and do what I can to minimize the damage. Right. But if it's that ingrained and it's that unorthodox, but it works, for the most part, you don't. There's stuff you don't change. Right. But if it's a newer player, then I'm probably working off some more of a classic model of swing. I'm saying that very generally, what the hell does classic even mean, you know, traditional swing model? I'm not going to teach something that's really an orthodox per se. My philosophy, if I could sum it up, is all about trying to get people to move freely, get their bodies to move in a free and natural way. So I call like unlocking your natural swing. And of course, we have to connect with the golf ball. There's skill developed that has to happen over time with understanding the way the clubface works and obviously coordinating that. But you know, if you have a. If you have a neutral. In my opinion, if you have a neutral grip and you have a good setup, you're balanced. When you start to truly swing the weight of the club, and I'm very much from the Ernest Jones old school school of thought, I always go back to that. If you truly are committed to swinging the weight of the club, swinging the weight of your arms, your body, which is the engine, if you can get everything swinging back and swinging through a lot of the alignments that impact take care of themselves, meaning that that neutral grip is going to square the face and your release is going to be timed up pretty well and you're going to use your body efficiently to move the club and create momentum in A way that you have lag naturally and that you have a weight shift because it makes sense. How else are you supposed to move the weight of the club through the ball? So I think that if we can get people swinging and moving freely, that a lot of the mechanics take care of themselves. That's my idealistic swing philosophy. I try to stick to those keys, especially with newer players. Are there lessons where I go through mechanically what the setup keys are? Sure. Are there lessons where trackman's on and we're talking about angle of attack? Yes, you know, but it depends on the player and the golfer that's standing in front of me, what their golf IQ is and what that golfer needs. Some golfers that are really technical and have a lot of swing thoughts, they're better with a touchy feely lesson that's very much about rhythm and tempo and like, swinging the weight of the club, sometimes they might want the technical information. They might be able to understand it. Maybe that's not what they need. They need a different pill. They need to get out of their own way. Right. And then there's the golfer that is freewheeling it, and they actually kind of need to be reigned in a little bit. Maybe they need a little bit of technical coaching and tightening up, you know, and making their swing a little bit more compact. For certain reasons, it just depends what they need. So I think that, you know, my philosophy is that of a true swing, I call it. And if I can work off that for the golfer that's in front of me and help tune that information to them based on what they need, that's what I try to do. I have different phases of the swing, which are basically checkpoints. You know, you would call them takeaway and top of the backswing. And I call it the heave and the tipping point. I just have different names for stuff because I try to create a lot of feel with people. And if I think so, a good way of saying it is, you know, a picture is worth a thousand words. Right. So what is a feel worth? I think a feel is worth a million pictures, you know, and so then, therefore, if that's what we can create, is more feels for people, however it makes sense to them through analogies, through stories, through different physical cues where the weight is on their hand or on their arm or how their body feels in a certain position, something they can relate to. I think that that helps drive movement and simplifies what you guys would say are swing thoughts. You know, we're trying to eliminate swing thoughts. Well, Then we have to wrap up a movement pattern into something.

Yeah.

How do we want to move? How do we want to move?

Very much in line with our thinking. That's awesome. I need to. I'm going to buy your book right now. That's awesome.

Thank you.

That's really impressive. So I have one last question before we wrap up with our kind of closing question. So under director of performance, I do a lot of the interviewing, initial interviewing, and trying to find coaches all over the world, really. And out of a hundred applicants, about. Usually about between three and five are women. And we've been talking a lot about this. We're almost 40 in the company, and we have four women, and our clientele is about 15 to 18% women. And we really struggle, you know, because if 95% of applicants are men, then there's not a big hiring pool. What is your view on women going into instruction and why after there's so many women, you know, college golfers playing golf in college and then not going into golf, what do you think we can do to improve that?

So, first of all, I mean, great job for you guys that you have that awareness of trying to, you know, seek out women professionals that are good for your business. I think that your percentages are probably in line with what the industry has to offer. So I don't think that you're below average. And having three out of 40 or four out of 40, that's probably 10%. There's only probably, if you look at the PGA, just as one example of an organization, are we even 10% women? And of those 10%, how many are actually coaching full time? It's probably less, you know, so I. Now, the second part to that is how do we get more women coaching, period, the end, so that everybody's percentages can go up, including your business. It's very interesting. When I think of the girls I play college, I played college golf with that were on my team. I think of the, let's say 10, 10 of us at the time, 10 active players that I graduated with given those three or four years, besides myself, one became a college golf coach eventually, and one was in the business. She went pro, got out of that, stopped playing after injury, got in the business, and I think is out of the business now, and everybody else is. One got into retail. The rest have gone off and done totally other things. So that's what, three, three or four out of 10, 30%, 40% kind of stayed in golf. Not a lot. I don't know, is it? I don't even know I'm the only one that became a teacher. I guess you could say the other gal, college coach. But it's not that many.

Yeah, I guess it depends on what your major is and things like that. But obviously it's hard to go into the pga. I was thinking about it. You didn't go through the lpga, which is kind of more coaching centric. Seems like is more instruction and seems to be a great program as well.

Yeah, I think that golf as an industry, it's part of the hospitality, recreation industry. You know, if you're going to go into golf, that probably means. That probably means you're working weekends and holidays and it's that. Right. It's a commitment before you even begin that that's probably gonna be your life.

For three, four years. Making nothing.

Well, that and I mean, even now, like, I have to coach on at least one weekend day, like work doctor's hours. I guess maybe there's a point in time where I could, if I want to just go part time. But like, you know, this is. We're in the business of sport and recreation and that's when people are available. So what? So let's say again, coaching, or even if you're on the operations side of things, you have to be willing to do that. And as a female, if you have any aspirations of having a quote, unquote, normal social life, husband, family, I'll just say family and kids down the road, that's really hard to swallow. So there's going to be logistical issues. I think that that in and of itself is a deterrent to why more women are not in this business. So I don't know how to overcome that. I don't know that there's a way. It's just if you have to love it enough to want to do it, that's all.

And there I think the game should really promote it because I just think about it. It's just like you think about primary education providers. You think about how, I mean, just women in the game and adding that perspective, especially in teaching and nurturing and fostering growth and development, just seems like it would be paramount to having more people in the game. Having them, having it feel inclusive and having it feel not so rough, you know, where it's like, hey, here, let me nurture your development in golf. I mean, I know there's a significant difference in that way. And it seems to me like that construct is something that we have to, I mean, I can, I think, continue to fight against so that we can have it be part of the process.

Yeah, I'd certainly love to see more female coaches. It's nice that the LPGA has focused more on teaching and coaching as part of their main certification. The PGA obviously has not done that. They've had more of a well rounded business school approach. And that's an, that's a whole nother maybe conversation. But I'll just say that I chose the PGA because honestly, the full networking, the networking opportunities in the PGA were much, much better when I was starting as a young assistant. And I knew that down the road, when it was time to apply for different jobs or maybe relocate to different facilities, that having that network in the PGA was going to be much more helpful for me. So.

So if, if there is young women that are thinking about it, what would be kind of your like three bullet point list recommendations? Let's say they're a senior in college or first year out of college. What, what should they do if they want to be there? If they love it. Yeah.

If they love golf. I, I think that you need to go, I hate to say, but go work at a facility if you haven't already and decide what part of the business you like. Is it coaching? Is it operations, is it retail that will give you a little bit more direction? If you already know the answer to that, then I would certainly jump harder into those areas. If coaching is the answer and you say, I know, I want to teach, I hate to say it, but yeah, to work, to do the typical assistant route like I did, it's fine, it buys you time, it's a job. But I would try to jump into full time teaching as soon as possible, whether that be a driving range or some kind of organization that's going to allow you to get more time teaching. Because I was self motivated. But a lot of assistants, the only time they're allowed to teach is off the clock. And so if you're putting in 40, 50, 60 hours a week, do you really want to stay there another 10 or 20 and try to get teaching hours in? For some people, the answer is no. So they just don't teach. For me, I was motivated to teach and I also wanted to make the extra money. So I stayed the extra time and taught whenever I could. But you know, teaching on the clock is not going to happen at every facility. So the only way you're going to teach on the clock is if that's your job. So go to a place where you can teach all the time.

Yeah, yeah.

Like us.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's great. Okay, so here's a theoretical question. So you have an opportunity to play any chorus in the world, and you have three different people that you're going to choose here. So one to get a lesson from before your round, one to play 18 holes with, and one to have a beer with afterwards.

So I would probably say I'd get a lesson from Butch. Where do I want to play? I want to play St. Andrews because I've never played there. I've been trying to go to Scotland for, like, three years now, and it keeps getting messed up my plan. So I want to go. I want to go play St. Andrews, and I'd like to get a lesson from Butch, and I would like to. You said, who do I want to play with? Yeah, I think it'd be really cool. I've listed her as somebody I look up to, but Condoleezza Rice. I'd like to play Condoleezza with Condoleezza Rice and. Or Tiger. I mean, come on. And who would I want to have a drink after with? I don't know. Somebody that's going to make me laugh, like Jim Carrey or somebody. I have a beer with Jim Carrey in Scotland.

Yeah, that's a good day.

That's a good day.

Why not?

We'll talk golf, politics and movies.

Exactly.

And you'll give.

You'll teach Condoleezza Rice a little bit on the.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. And then see, see, if I do that, then maybe she'll give me the invite to go to Augusta and play with her.

That's awesome. No, this is a lot of fun. I really appreciate you taking the time.

My pleasure, you guys. Thanks so much for having me. Good luck.

Fascinating story.

Good luck out there in California. I hope you guys get back to normal soon. And hopefully you visit here in Virginia at some point. Maybe when you are, you can expand the business to the East Coast.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's the plan. All right, you guys, thank you so much.

Thank you, Erica.

Take care. Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Sam.