Erika Larkin: Learn As I Go

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This is Tony Ruggiero, and you're listening to the Tour Coach Podcast. These are a collection of conversations, roundtable discussions, interviews with friends, people I meet, people I teach, folks that come to see us, people that I teach with respect and admire, all from around the world of golf. If you're a golf nut, a golf junkie, you love golf instruction, or maybe you just want a little entertainment, you're in the right place. We've got over 200 conversations out there available for you now on the Tour Coach, and I'm excited as we head into 2024, our goal is to bring you more content each and every week and help all of you enjoy and play the game of golf better. Special thanks to my sponsors that have all been with me for such a long time. Thanks to McConnell Automotive, Mitch McConnell, and the folks at McConnell Automotive and the folks at Bushnell Golf couldn't do any of it, especially pro work, without them. But Vineyard Vines keeping us looking good and always taking care of us at all the retreats and of course, Shrixon and Cleveland Golf and the folks there, whether it's Chip Holcomb, Eddie Dry, Mason Prang, Noel Zavata, Roddy McDonald, all of them, everybody that has been part of our journey with Shrix on Cleveland golf for over 23 years, I believe it is now. And also want to welcome one of the new sponsors to the Dew Sweepers and the Tour Coach Podcast, and that would be Visor Skincare and our folks, the Franklins, who are been Dew Sweepers and fans of us for a long time. And it is by far the best skincare and sunscreen out there. So make sure you check them out as well and hope you enjoy this season of the Tour Coach and what we've got going on. We're looking forward to bringing you some great stuff and enjoy this conversation here on the Tour Coach. All right, so sitting in with me here on the Tour Coach Podcast is a golf magazine top 100 golf digest top 50 teacher. I ran into her the other day. I go, I guess it was almost about. It probably was a week ago, a little over a week ago at the PGA show in Orlando. And I've been. We talked about doing this before, like usual, running around like crazy, always tough to coordinate. But we finally pinned it down. Erica Larkin. Erica, what's going on?

Hey, Tony. Gosh, doing great. Thanks for having me on your show.

Oh, absolutely. Appreciate you taking the time to sit in and look. I first saw you, like, I'm sure, eight gazillion Americans or people all over the world. Saw you on social media was the first time I think I ever knew who you were as a coach and a teacher. Saw stuff out on Instagram. You're very prolific on Instagram and social media. And, you know, look, I'm, you know, I'm way old school and I kind of was late getting into Instagram. I mean, I didn't know, like, oh, you know, I mean, this stuff seems crazy, but now I'm crazy active on it and I enjoy the hell out of doing it. How did you get. Let's. First of all, how did you get started into teaching and coaching golf? One of the things that's always fascinating to me is talking with great teachers and hearing how they got started and, like, who were their influences? Who were the people that kind of pushed them down the road that they started on.

Yeah, we'd love to tell that story. So, first of all, I started playing golf as a young girl, 8 years old, and I grew up in a very unlikely place to learn golf, which is New York City. My parents decided that we were going to try to play golf and learn the game together. They had never played before. And we literally started at like a pitch and putt course in Queens, New York. So that was the beginning of my golf journey. And I ended up playing junior golf in the Met section in the summers. My mom had found out about different tournaments and we ran into a section pro, a PGA professional by the name of Frank Darby, who actually runs a radio show. He was a St. John's coach for years. You may know him. He was a Keegan Bradley's college coach. And he's had some good success of his own. He introduced me to a lot of golf books and philosophy. I didn't know anything. I didn't have very many lessons. So he kind of took me under his wing and exposed me to a lot of really cool stuff. And one of the main influences that he liked that I sort of own now is the old Ernest Jones swing, the club AD philosophy. And that carried me through my playing career. I always went back to that. It always just was simple. It felt good to me. I understood. Certainly wasn't technical, but for me, it was something kinesthetic that I could latch onto. It always brought me back to a better place. So naturally, when I started coaching years later, after I played collegiate golf, I got into the golf business and was asked to give some lessons at a local academy by a colleague of mine. I really decided I liked coaching and I wanted to go down that path more full time and So I just went back to what I knew. I went back to Ernest Jones. I went back to my old bookshelf and honestly learned as I went and very organically developed my own approach to teaching. I never really taught under a top teacher or shadowed too many teachers early on. I just kind of did what worked for me and my students. And I think that was kind of a really important part of my story because I didn't have anybody telling me what I should do or honestly giving me any feedback. So I had to figure out what worked. Now I look back and I say, gosh, I probably could have fast forwarded my career a little bit if I had just worked for somebody that knew what the heck they were doing and could have guided me. But it was sort of fun. And I taught a ton of juniors and ladies at the clubs that I worked at early on my teaching career and got confident and built programming and always was into, you know, what could I do that could simplify things in my approach and drills and stuff that, you know, the everyday golfer could understand. So along the way, I certainly taught, you know, plenty of elite juniors that had success in college. And as I grew my business from the private club setting into like, public course setting, I had moved over to a different property in Northern Virginia, where I live. Then I really started to grow. Just the volume of students, the volume of programming. I understood what it took to market my business locally, regionally. I got involved in the section. So, you know, just like a lot of pros, you just start small, you figure stuff out, you see what works, you reinvent yourself, you try to grow your business. I did all those things the first, you know, 10 years I was teaching. And where the story takes a fun turn is I wanted to write a book. I always wanted to, to try and organize my thoughts in a way of like, okay, what am I teaching that's working? Do I really have a system? What's my process? And obviously I'm doing well in my business, so I must be doing some things that are working that I can put down on paper and tell more people about and organize my ideas. And I sat down finally and did it. Over the course of about a year and a half, I wrote a book, I self published it. It's called True Swing. That, that all came together in 2017, and that's when I started posting on social media. Really up to that point, I had only done some random YouTube videos and, you know, things for my golf courses and my, my students. But I hadn't really jumped into any consistent social media until that point. And so me writing this book and then saying, okay, I gotta market this thing if I'm ever gonna sell copies outside of my, my own database, I decided I would make content around the book. And in the process of trying to do that and figure out how the heck to, you know, edit videos and make these little short videos for Instagram and then share things to the other platforms, I just got in this really fun flow of making all kinds of content. It began, it became, it took on a life of its own for quite a few years where I just, I did videos with parodies and I was singing musical songs and dancing around and tried to get on the whole, you know, vibe of just what other influences were doing, even outside the golf space. And so I tried to understand and observe what trends look like in social media and try to apply that to golf instruction in a fun way. I found my personality through online, through doing that, and I think it was just a really fun creative process for me to go through. And it certainly caught the attention of a lot of folks in the industry. Other pros, but particularly like the Golf Digest and the Golf Channels and things like that, started to say, wow, all right, she's like, kind of fun. She's doing these videos. She's not afraid to put herself out there.

Right, right.

That was a, that was a big deal for me because, you know, I think there's so many great teachers, there's a million teachers probably better than me, but you have to put yourself out there and tell the world what you're doing. If you, if you want to grow to that next level, if you don't want to do that and you're happy doing what you're doing in your own backyard, that's totally fine because you can make a big difference on your students and your community and your club. And that's, that's amazing. But like, to grow to that next level, to scale what you're doing, to reach more people beyond the bubble of your club. Like, I just, I think social media has been a game changer for me and anybody out there, any coaches listening to this? Like, I mean, I think that my journey shows that tremendous growth over the short period of time by what I was able to do through the exposure of, of social media. So.

Well, I think, like, I had this conversation with a really good young teacher, actually Ryan Webb in North Carolina earlier, actually this morning I was driving through a McDonald's drive through on my health kick again, as usual. But, hey, but nothing like a chicken biscuit in the morning. But anyway, so, but like, you know, I came up under, you know, old school great teacher Hank Johnson and I talked about all the time about his influence. But like he would be mortified at some of the things he sees now like we do on inside. That's just old school. But like, you know, with all these young teachers coming up, I tell like to me, if you want to be relevant and like you said, I agree 100%. If you just, you're happy teaching your folks at your club, in your backyard, I mean that's fantastic. But you can't sit there and bitch that nobody knows you outside. You don't get recognized if you don't keep up with what the industry's doing now.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think that like there's more to being, and I use this word loosely, like a great teacher, I'm just using this for this conversation, but like a well known teacher that, you know, there's way more to it now than just the hour you spend with a student on the T. And I think that's evolved a lot over, you know, I guess it's five, six, seven, eight years somewhere in there, maybe 10 years. But like to me the role of what we do has expanded. Like there's more, you have to go to more. You know, if you're gonna coach elite players and high level players, you gotta go to tournaments. Now coaches and teachers didn't used to have to do that. You gotta travel. But you also have to put information out there because to me that's where people find out who you are as a teacher and a coach is through the content you put out there. And it's, it's not just to get known, but it's how students find you and say, hey, that's like, like that's the type of information I'm looking for. That's the style of teacher coach that I want that I think I need to help me.

Exactly. I mean we, we all worked off word of mouth forever, right? I mean just generally speaking through generations of coaches prior to us, it's, it's word of mouth, it's maybe some local advertising, things like that, but oh so and so is getting results. He had a great experience with this coach. I'm gonna go try that. But now like people can get that sampling of you through your content and they can decide for themselves. To your point. You know, I like their personality, I like what they're saying. That speaks to me. Wow, I did try that little tip and yeah, it did work. And I'm gonna now book a lesson or I'm gonna go to that person's golf school or I'm gonna subscribe to their website because you just click with that delivery of communication or maybe that person's approach. So I just think it's such a great way for people to sample what you're doing. It is a great way to genuinely touch more golfers. I just think, you know, if you only focus on your core, you know, group of clients and members, let's say you're touching, let's call it 30 people, 40 people a week. You know, maybe if you do group programming, maybe a bit more. But like, you know, doing stuff online, being able to get more eyeballs on what you're doing, your message can get to thousands, if not, you know, theoretically millions of people around the world on any given day. It's like so powerful that you can have that impact on people that you've never even met. Like that's what I find. So I don't like, I find it rewarding. I find it like exciting that I'll have these random comments and people dming me or people will come for a lesson and be like, I've been following you for four years. I finally got out to visit you. But like, you know, I first saw you on XYZ platform and. Or I saw some review on you on you. Somebody else was saying something about how much they're cut, they liked your content and then I started following you. It's like, wow. And I'm like helping these people I've never even met. That's so cool. You know, I just find that fun.

Yeah, And I think too there's like this idea that the content like is just entertainment, that it can't help people. Right. But like I get all the, I mean if you've picked up an Instagram and you're not living on a rock. Everybody knows I do stuff with resistance band talk a lot about pivot, like, but like I get messages all the time for people that'll say like, hey man, like, you know, I'd been struggling and I saw this drill and I went and did it and it helped. Like you can put stuff out that with, that can really help a person without them coming to see you. Like that's how people learn nowadays, don't you think?

Oh, totally. Online learning is huge. People are certainly more open minded to it than they've ever been. I do think that remote coaching can be effective, but like anything, I mean if you over medicate, it's not good. If you take the wrong medicine, it's not good. And so it's tricky, right? People follow many different coaches in this example, and sometimes they do start trying things that are not meant for them. That can be a slippery slope. So I think best case scenario is, you know, they try something and it does help them. And if it doesn't help them, I guess they should probably hopefully figure out pretty quickly they need to look for a different tip or get some professional advice to steer them into the right information to look for online. You know, I think that's like the best combination.

How has your. You talked about. You kind of mentioned starting, you know, with the Ernest Joan book and book, and you talked about learning as you go. How has your. Did you. Did you go down any wrong, you know, wrong turns trying to figure out what you wanted to teach or what was important to you for a student or. I mean, I think all of us have had, obviously, if we're good at what we've done and we've learned we've had failures or we've had times that maybe weren't as successful. Some of the biggest, you know, moments in my career have been some of the lowest times where I got fired by a bunch of people, you know, and. And you had to kind of sit and go, like, what the hell am I not doing as well as I need to? And so forth. But, like, on your journey, what. What were. Did you go? Did you make some wrong turns? Or, like, is there. Have you evolved in what you teach? Kind of tell me what you think there.

Yeah. So, I mean, we all make mistakes, and I've certainly, you know, you find a student here and there that you just can't seem to fix. Right. Or you run out of stuff for certain people. You know, you work with somebody long enough, it's like you feel like you can't help them anymore. You've reached a dead end. I hate that feeling. It does. It has happened over the years sometimes. But to your answer your question, like, I've tried to learn as much as I can about different technologies that have popped up over the years and, and bought things and certainly experimented with things and some stuff. I just, I have to come back and say how, okay, I have this core philosophy. How does this keep me? Does this keep me on my message, or am I able to take this new piece of tech and come back? For me, it's always about trying to be simple. And so I have to really be careful because as a coach, I can nerd out. And I want to know the Information, but the reality of what works on the lesson tee. When I use technology, I really try to get fluent with it enough that it's for me to help, I guess, double check, validate baseline somebody. And then I'm not standing there speaking Chinese to the person that only understands English. You can't do that. You can't talk over somebody's head and get results. You have to be able to translate that information in a way that is quick, that speaks to the student. You're looking at the most relevant pieces of that technology to help this person. Like. And I just have found that some along the way, some things I've tried to incorporate in my lesson t, I just, I would get a little bit impatient with getting to that point of fluency and so I would just give up on using some of the pieces. Trackman is a, is a no brainer for me now. Obviously, you know, it's like just automatic. It's there, it's running, it's. I don't even have to think about it, you know what I mean? But some of the stuff over the years and even some philosophies that I tinkered with, it's like, I just, you have to do stuff for long enough to get that level of really flow and fluency with getting on board with maybe a system or a concept or a piece of tech. And I just think like that's the toughest part is when you're trying to keep your mind open and try new things, it takes a while and in the meantime you're still feeling this pressure to give the good lesson that you know you can give. So I think that there's. That the ebbs and flows of you're growing as a coach, you're trying things and some of the new things maybe don't always stick or you don't deliver them as well or as smoothly as you'd like. And so it's easy to abandon those. So the stuff that I have stuck with obviously is things that either spoke to me more, felt better, were easier to adapt, were simpler for me to apply quickly into my lesson tee or I just shelf it and wait till maybe an off season and come back to it to try to get better at incorporating that into what might be my, you know, evolved teaching ideas or drills or approaches. So I don't know, does that make sense?

Totally.

I think one of the trying new things, you can just stumble.

I think one of the things that, you know, teachers and students and players make mistakes on is that they don't sometimes Stay true to the things that work for them.

Right?

And that they too easily or not too easily, but like a new thing comes along. So they feel like because it's new and they see Joe Schmoes using it and Susie over here's got like, so they got to get it and they got to jump right in. And they do that before they actually sit and figure out one, does it go with what I teach and what I use? And more importantly, like, do I understand it enough to incorporate it into what I teach? Right?

Yes.

And like, I had this conversation with Scott Lynn with Swing Catalyst several years ago when the, when the dual plates first came out, and I was like, hey, should I buy this? And I always ask, you know, advice. And he was like, I'd wait because we don't exactly know what it's going to do yet. And he's like, and you don't exactly know how it's going to incorporate into what you teach yet. And you're great at what you're doing with, with the regular plate. And I think that, you know, I've made those mistakes. Like, I've jumped in and bought something because, like, well, hell, I mean, I got to have this. It's new, right? But I feel like that's great advice and really honest what you said. And I've also always found that I think you're way more successful as a coach and a teacher and as a player if you're honest and you're really yourself. And you just say like, you know what? I don't know if that really fits into what I teach right now. And I don't know. I mean, like, I think that's better than making up some bullshit.

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I can remember like a couple of times where I was trying some stuff that I had learned at a seminar and it was almost like I felt like in that moment I really wanted to try it with the student, but I clearly was like stumbling and second guessing what I was saying. And then I look like an idiot. You know, like, you don't want your people paying you money for your expertise. And if you're not confident in what you're saying, they're gonna smell that right away, they're gonna feel it, and then you're not giving them what they came for. And so I just think that, like, you have to be 100% in on what you're saying to the student and believe in it and you have to deliver it that way to get the buy in for the student. Right or wrong. You have to, you know, and so being a little hesitant over what you're saying because you're new or you're trying to, like, play with the software that's new, and you're just fumbling. Like, I just think it looks so bad. So I've just been very aware of that and tried to do my best to, you know, you try to get through those learning curves when you are truly committed to maybe a new thing that you're doing. But, yeah, like, I never like the feeling of a student knowing that they're being this guinea pig for you.

Right.

That's not right. Like, you should find. Find an assistant coach, find somebody at your club that is willing to be that guinea pig for you. Don't do it with a student when they're paying you.

Correct. And, you know, I took two player. I'm. One of the mistakes I've made been. Well, there's lots of them. I'm on my fourth wife, so I've done plenty. But anyways, that's another podcast. But, like, one of the things was like, yeah, I was really trying to learn more about trackman, right? I had a bunch of good young players, and so I took two players, drove to see, and at the end, like, you know, the guy was just looking at numbers, and he was like, oh, that's perfect. And this kid hit a ball that's like 80 yards left, right? You know, because he was. And we get in the car and we're driving to go have some good dinner. And the guy. And this young guy who was one of those students, you know, like, super smart, but doesn't say a lot, but we were good friends, and he. We're like 10 miles down the road, and he just goes, if you ever do that again, you're fired. Right? He was like that. And I was like, yeah, you're right. I learned, like, you know what? Like, you don't. You can't be a guinea pig with a player. And I've done, like, you mentioned seminars, like, where I've gone and I've watched this stuff, and it's obviously influential people. And I go back and I start doing all these crazy, you know, these. And then, like, you know, and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Right? Like, I'm already making people better, you know? Right. Like, I don't need to change who I am and what I do just. Just to get better.

For sure. For sure. Yeah. No, I actually. So I just. We opened a learning center at my club two winters ago, and for 20 years, I feel like I've been trying to find a solution to have, you know, a teaching center. I've been teaching outdoors in the elements off an iPad, you know, obviously, things like that. And I was comfortable obviously teaching outside with my bag of training aids and just being like, have my setup every day. And so there was a part of me that was like, you know, I wonder what it's going to be like to truly teach in this environment where the TV is always on and like, the video plays back every swing, you know, like, because when I was standing outside with golfers and I had. Was holding that iPad, I would only show them stuff when I wanted to.

Right?

And so having a studio environment for me was actually a significant. I mean, it's an upgrade in a lot of ways. It provides an amazing learning environment. But then at the same time, it was like this slippery slope of be careful what you wish for. Like, is this actually the experience I want the student to have? Or how am I going to control the experience the student has when this technology is just like on and running constantly? So, I mean, I found my way of doing it and I'm comfortable. But the first few months of like, truly being in that studio full time and then also defaulting to being that, that's the room that you're in to teach in, like, I had to like, get myself out of the building more. Do you know what I mean? Like, remember, like, hey, remember, you can go out and hit on the grass. Don't be so. Don't be so comfortable in this space. Like, get out of this room. And so that, you know, and this is 20 years into my teaching career, and I'm telling myself this in the back of my head. So we are always a growing. Changing our environments change, the people we work with can change. And so that's just, I guess it's just part of the process. And I'm aware of it because I'm always just as a coach, trying to do the best I can to be the best coach I can to deliver the best experience for the golfer, to help people. I don't want things to be a distraction. So I'm very hyper aware of that.

And I think that's an important lesson, not just for teachers. We obviously have a lot of teachers listen, but also players is like, the player has to know and learn the student, regardless of their skill level. Obviously as you get better, you understand more of what you need, but like, to understand what they need and they fall into the same traps we do just because they bought A Trackman for wedge combines and distance or a Bushnell and a launch pro or a quad doesn't mean they've got to use every number just because they bought it when they've never used it. And they're doing fine. Right. I think it's.

Right.

I think it's. You know, and you have. With things becoming more affordable, like all technology and smaller, we're getting more and more students that have the ability to buy some of the tech we have, and some of what we do is just educating them on what. What the hell they need to look at if they have it.

Exactly. Exactly. They're trying to please numbers that they don't even know what the numbers mean. And then they come with a whole different set of issues. You're like, what rabbit hole did you go down in the last three weeks? Where are you? What are you doing? You know?

No. No question. They do that. And I think that, you know, I think that that's a big. You know, I think that's. I mean, that's like, again, we started off, like, our jobs evolving. Well, 30 years ago, you probably didn't have. As a coach or a teacher, you didn't really have to educate your students on the numbers that you didn't have to teach them the numbers that didn't matter to them. Right. I mean, and you also didn't have to worry other than once a month when Golf Digest and Golf Magazine came out like, hey, I know this is, like, cool right now, but it doesn't have anything to do with what you need to do. So I think that's all part of how, like, players are having to evolve, to understand, to get better. And that's part of not just doing social media to be relevant, but that's. Our jobs evolved as well.

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. You have to help the players navigate the information that they should be most concerned with. Yep. Well, that's why you're. That's why you're a great coach, because you do those things. That's an important part of it.

It could be debated many times, but. All right, so last question.

Yeah.

What? Did you see anything at the PGA show you really liked new?

I was. I was standing with you, actually, when I saw one of the coolest things, which was that catalyst suit, man.

Pretty cool.

Oh, my God. So, Morgan, your girl got in the suit. I didn't have a chance to get in it, but I watched her struggle for, you know, 10 minutes. And she's. She's fit. Right. She's standing there grinding in that electric suit to do her workout. And I just thought that was. I had. I knew about it before the show. I wanted to see it in person. I'm super intrigued by that. I mean, I love things that are efficient, but I also think for me, like, the idea of doing things where there's resistance but a sense of balance and everything's firing, I just think it makes so much sense for golf. So I'm really intrigued by that. That was probably one of the coolest things. I know it's on the fitness side, but when you're trying to imply implement technique, even if it's outside the realm of what their programs are, I just think there's going to be some cool applications for more stuff like that in the future.

Yeah, I loved it. This kind of. The fact that you brought that up goes to kind of what we've talked about is I'm still. I use a lot of golf fitness in my teaching and to help people improve their ability to do things and learn the movement patterns. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I would take the ability of that catalyst to blend it into what I do. Right. Like, you know what I mean? So, like, was crazy fascinating watching it. Like, I was like. And then talking to Morgan and I'm like, watching it and I'm like. Because she works out like, non stop and like, it was hard for her to do, you know, so like. But I'm sitting there going, okay, now, like, how do I take this cool technology and how do I get that to where it fits to what we do? So I'm kind of in the same phase where you and I were talking 15 minutes ago during this podcast about. But it was cool. I would agree with you. I thought that was one of the best things I saw. And I mean, to me, the favorite part of the show is always just running into people and the networking and all of that. But, Erica, awesome stuff.

Thanks, man.

You're kicking ass. You're doing great stuff. I love following your stuff. Hopefully we'll get the chance to run in and do this again, maybe live and in person at some point.

But yeah, it sounds great.

Keep up all the great stuff and we'll look forward to chatting soon.

Thanks, Tony. You have a great week.

I hope you enjoyed this edition of the Tour Coach and this conversation that we brought to you about playing, learning and teaching the game of golf. We'll be back next week with another edition of the Tour Coach. In between now and next week, make sure you follow us on our social channels. You can always find me theduceweeper on Instagram or go to our YouTube page where you'll see a scene and a video from my teachings daily on our YouTube channel. You can find that by looking up Tony Ruggiero and the dew sweepers on YouTube. Until then, make sure you follow and check out everything. Tour coach and all our sponsors, Srikeshon Cleveland Golf, Bushnell Vineyard Vines and Buick gmc. I'll be back next week to help all of us appreciate life, learn and enjoy the game of golf. I just want to remind everybody something that I forgot recently. A couple weeks ago, my wife and I went out. We went to a wedding and afterwards with some friends, we're like, hey, where's a great place to go? I'll be honest, like in my travels and day to day, sometimes I get caught up and I forget some of the great places right around the corner. But I got to remind you about the 8th Box Bar on 755 Monroe St. I know with the Mardi Gras and all that stuff, it's going to be packed, but I was blown away by just the whole vibe, the atmosphere. And with the Velvet Pig, the food in the back room and the big screen TVs up front, I was blown away by the atmosphere, the vibe and just how cool it was to have the Icebox bar right here near Dew Sweepers downtown. So look, when you're out March, Mardi Gras, or you're looking for a great place to go, sit, watch some games, hang out, play some pool, you gotta go to the Icebox bar right there on Monroe Street. There's a good chance you'll see all of us hanging out, especially during Mardi Gras. But do yourself a favor, go visit the Icebox. It's one of the best places out there. Hi, this is Tony Ruggiero and look, recently several teachers I know and several players have had some scares with skin cancer. That guy recently went and saw a dermatologist here in town and I had a couple things frozen off. Eyelid, my face, my earlobe, and not getting any younger. And I know, I know it's getting to that time of the season where it's cooler. But look, being in the sun is a real deal. And I've not been very good, to be totally honest, my whole career using it at all because I didn't like how greasy it was, how hard it was to get off your hands, how it clogged up my pores. And then I found this sunscreen Visor Skincare. It's clear, it goes on. It doesn't dry you out. It isn't greasy. It's like you didn't put anything on. By far, it's the best sunscreen I've ever used. Without a doubt is the easiest to use. And we've got a discount code for all of you. All you have to do is go to visorskincare.com just use our code word. Do sweeper. Visorskincare.com code word dew sweeper.