111. Purpose Is the Prescription: A New Approach to Burnout Recovery

We will have problems. That is the human experience. But we can't control how life will life. We can control our perspective, we can control our reaction. And we have to realize we don't have to do all the things.

Are you a woman in medicine feeling overwhelmed and disconnected from the personal fulfillment that you desire? You're in the right place. Join doctors Joanne and Erin as they rewrite the rules for women in medicine. Let's begin.

We are so excited to introduce you to our friend and Fellow Physician coach, Dr. Pamela Buchanan. And I actually got to meet Pamela in person at a conference in Washington D.C. a couple months ago. She has so much information to share. She is a fierce advocate for so many different groups of people. She is a board certified physician, stress management expert, TEDx speaker, and a purpose driven coach dedicated to helping women in healthcare and female executives reclaim their lives from stress and burnout. And she's here with Dr. Joanne Sotello, my favorite co host. And we are going to explore so many different areas that Pam is an expert in. And I would love to dive deep into your advocacy, Pam, because you are an advocate for so many things, mental health, neurodiversity and people of color. And I want to know, how do you manage it all?

Oh, thanks, Erin. When you're passionate about what you do and you're operating in purpose, it's not like you're managing it all. It's like, I get to do it. And it's like at the end of the day, I wish I could do more, but there's only one in me. And so I just lean into what my zone of genius is, which is influencing and recruiting and working on a cause. And so whenever I feel like God does this to me, whenever I go through something, it teaches me how to better serve humanity, how to be a better doctor, how to treat my patients better. So doing it all is I get to do it all. I like doing it. I actually love it.

And I love that empowered mindset about I get to instead of I have to or that feeling of guilt. It sounds like you just lean in and embrace those things that you're passionate about. So powerful.

I do. I think a lot of what a lot of women don't do is think about, what do you want? Because I got into my 40s before I started thinking about what I want because it was like, what I have to do. I have to go to work, I have to see the patients, I have to work these shifts, I gotta get the charts done, I gotta take the kids to whatever they have to go through. And believe me, they will find something to sign up for. You gotta have a date night. You got to. When is it ever going to be What I get to. Like, we have date night tonight. And I get to do it because I started speaking up what I want to do. I don't want to see a show where everybody dies and nobody's in love. Let's make a compromise, you know? And my son has games. He had games all weekend. I used to feel so guilty about not making every single game. Today is raining crazy. There was a storm. I told my son, I do not want to sit in the rain and be drenched and watch you kick a ball to the net. I will come tomorrow when the sun is shining. I love you. All the best without the guilt. Because I don't know why I thought I had to do it all. I don't know who told me that. And that's the big lie, I think.

So true. We talk a lot about that here. And I wish we had been recording our conversation while we were getting ready because you were sharing that. Like, the figuring out what you really want to do. And thank you for saying it out loud. That you have to say it out loud and right. Like, we carry so much guilt. It's not good.

Think about it. If you're like me. So I grew up and I was very, very gifted in math and science. Still to this day, a lot of times I will figure out a problem in my head and people are like. Like, it's just a thing I do. And I had issues with processing and language. Even now, you might see sometimes I'm not looking directly in your eyes. It's a quirk. Neurodiversity. When I was younger, they were calling it Asperger's. We don't use that term anymore. You got to look through all the history. There's some ugly history associated with it. We call it on the spectrum. And a lot of people on the spectrum, I can tell now. I'm so keen to it. There are people who are clinically diagnosed and those who are undiagnosed. But men on the spectrum used to be such an area of shame for me. I used to be like, oh, I am in the African American community. They would say things like, are you slow? Which is a negative connotation. And my mom would say, no, she's not slow. She just learns differently. And so now I've leaned into being different. And it's helping me in my career because I can take a system and review it and say, if we do it like this, it'd be much better and more efficient. And that is a quirk for being neurodiverse. That serves me now. It serves me also in the emergency room, when everyone is freaking out like, oh, my God, they're bleeding or dying. I'm hyper focused on what can we do to stop it? What else? What can we do? And how do you stay calm? What used to be thought of as a negative is now my power. So I lean into that now. And I encourage anybody who feels like whatever they have, however they are, is something that's not like everybody else, not like everyone else, not traditional. It is probably the thing that you.

Excel at that is so powerful. Pamela. And I'm constantly seeing women physicians posting about their struggles with their kids that might be neurodivergent. ADHD on the spectrum, their struggles in school. And I remember reaching out to one of those moms earlier this week and just said, hang in there and you can do this, and shared the story of my own son who was very adhd, couldn't get his homework done. We let him drop out of high school as a junior, and I celebrate that success for him because all of the things that happened in his life after that are serving him now as a combat medic in the Army. And had we forced him to do the normal way of, you know, get your degree, get your high school degree, all those things instead of his ged, he wouldn't have had the same path. And that was what he needed. And yet, I think, especially as physicians and people like, oh, you know, might be embarrassed to say, kid got a ged, and I'm not. I am so thrilled that he did that because that was the right decision for him. And so I like to cheerlead on those moms out there that might be struggling and, oh, my kid's not fitting in. They're a round peg and what is it, Square peg in a round hole. And yet, as you're saying, you're using some of those things that might have been looked upon as a negative. They're your superpower and your strength. And so to all those parents out there who are worried about their own children, hang in there because there is hope. And if you can provide the parenting that they want, I think that will help them find their success.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. And I practice what I preach. I used to sit up and worry, like, I don't know if you've ever seen Forrest Gump when he found out he had a child and he was wondering Is he. Is he stupid, is what he said? I used to worry, am I going to pass this neurodivergence onto my children? I don't want them to get teased like I did, to get bullied. My daughter freed me up so much because out of my children are three. Two out of three are neurodivergent. And my daughter, I was like, man, I'm sorry. I passed this on to you. Because she goes to therapy and she's an A student, she's in college, but she's very much so not what is traditional. She says, mom, oh, my God, I love my neurospicy family. Like, it's a fun salsa dance or dip. And so that freed me up so much. My kids are not worried about it. I am. And so I encourage the parents. We're worried about fitting into traditional norms because that's what, you know, the boomer generation put into us. If this, then that if you go to school and become a lawyer, you will be happy. It is not true. We know that because 60% of people who work are burned out. That would. That was something I just heard on a podcast from Forbes. 60%, I think, you know, in some instances, it's calculated as higher. So people are not doing what what they want to do. They're doing what they think they should do, what someone told them they should do. So when your kid is neurodivergent, work with him, not against him. Let him be and don't choose for him. Of course we want him to be safe and we want to guide, but you can't make them do anything, and they won't be happy, and you won't either.

This is so good. And what I hear is your struggles and what you had to figure out makes you such a better mom. Right? And the fact that it's like, yeah, let's talk about it. Let's bring it out, like, as our spiciness and what makes us unique and different and what a beautiful life you're creating for them. Because it's like, hopefully they won't have to deal with some of that shame that you're talking about. Just thinking, like, what's wrong with me? Right? It's like, no, what's different that makes me unique? Right. It's a very different question to ask ourselves.

Yep. They don't have that shame. And I'm happy for them. I admire Gen Z for that. They lean into that.

I love that. And you talking something a little different that you were mentioning burnout and because I did my little research Slash stalking. Of all the things that you do that you talk about how you also help other professionals and physicians and you have the cool formula that you have and one of them is purpose is the prescription, which I love that to help prevent burnout and not just manage it. Tell us more about that.

Yes, because in my struggles, I of course I worked in a pandemic. So in the middle of Missouri, in a rural area. And I have a float but I go to this small hospital the most and now under resourced and overwhelmed in an area where that is very conservative red state, don't believe in Covid. And so we had the combination of the pandemic raging all while we had Covid deniers. And for some reason during that time, people became more me and racist. So it stressed me to my core. I never got sick. So I worked a lot. I would come home from sometimes 12, sometimes 24 hour shifts. I come home, sleep, and then maybe I've only been sleep a few hours. My phone's ringing, can you come back to the hospital? And I felt like such a war, such like I had to. And I did. All of a sudden, insidiously, I just wasn't myself. I felt like I didn't want to be here. I didn't want to live anymore. And one of my colleagues who was instrumental in training me, he died by suicide. And you never would have guessed it. Beautiful man, beautiful wife, beautiful family. I know he had some personal struggles. We thought he had overcome them. And a few days before that he posted it was going to be okay. And this happened. That's when I knew I had to get help. And it was shameful to think that I wasn't okay. I thought I was strong, I felt weak. And when I went to get help, therapist helped me realize it's okay. Then I'd be okay and fill all the fields. And then she put into perspective during that time, two or three people were dying in a day. I'm used to two or three people dying in a year. And every time a person dies and you're an ER doctor, you go, is it my fault? Did I do everything? Should I have acted sooner? And it's a lot to carry. And you take that and concentrate it in a short period of time. I wasn't taking care of myself. And so that's like many women. And all I was thinking about was everyone else. I was thinking about the kids. I don't want to give them Covid. Are they doing okay with homeschooling? Is everybody else okay? I wasn't sleeping much. I wasn't eating well. And then I just had to take a step back, put myself first. Therapy helped some, Medication helped some. I still wasn't awesome because my therapist was like, yeah, well, you need to do it, you know, quit your job, take a break. Okay. I'm a six figure earner. High six figure earner. I. I can't do it. And I'm divorced. My kid's sole source of income. So my physician coach was like, okay, how can you do things in a way that suits you? I never thought about that. I was like, I just have to do what the hospital tells me to do. I just need to. And then when you realize the power of the dynamic, the dynamic of the power we have, we are the talent. The physician is the talent. You cannot do this without me. And so I began to ask for what I needed, and they did acquiesce. Then I realized, oh, there's a physician shortage. Then I asked more of what I needed and created the kind of pace that I needed and also realized that I'm excellent at what I do. I don't think we realize that enough. So just like actresses and actors negotiate, you can negotiate as a physician. And realizing that helped me really get the kind of schedule I needed to be happier and less burned out. And then realized, what else do I want to do in life? My physician coach was like, my coach was a physician coach, and then I have a different life coach. And they focus on purpose. And I thought, what purpose was? Woo woo. Like, okay, you pray to Jesus and you get your purpose. I'm like, there's a scientific way of discovering your purpose using something called the purpose factor. And once I did that, I figured out what the best of what I had to serve others was. And once I started leaning into that, after discovering my purpose, my life went into flow. My flow, meaning it didn't seem like I had to do anything. It seemed like I got to do things because I picked what. What I was best at. And that's why I know that purpose is the prescription for burnout. Because if you really know who you are and the best of what you have to serve others and you operate in that, I guarantee you will be less burned out. I don't think you'll be burned out at all.

Wow. Like, so many nuggets there. And thank you for sharing your personal story as well, and sorry for the loss of your friend. Erin and I are very passionate about that and we talk about it here like it's, what can we do? Why aren't we talking more about it? So I'm glad that you were able to have the help and the insight yourself to move past all of that and the understanding. It's not like, oh, just have a better perspective. Just think brighter and snap your fingers and it's all gone. Right. Like, we have empathy for the difficulty and how much we internalize first. Oh, what? Like you said, what's wrong with me? I thought I was stronger. Right. And the shame that we put in ourselves that keeps us from getting the help that we need. And so neat that you are like, no, wait, that's exactly part of it. And then the connection to purpose, I mean, right? And it's knowing there's going to be parts of our job that we're not going to like that are hard. But if we're intentional about the purpose and the things that we love, and like you said, your son of genius and where you're special, that creates such a beautiful fuel to. Then, like you said, the other things don't seem that hard because your tank is fuller.

Right.

So how cool that you get to help others now with that prescription as well. Thank you.

Yeah. And that's what I enjoy. It's just, we have to realize life will life. And the whole notion of everything going the way it's supposed to go is a fallacy. We will have problems. That is the human experience, but we can't control how life will life. We can't control our perspective. We can't control our reaction. And we have to realize, especially as women, we don't have to do all the things.

And I love how you pointed out with this purpose factor, a couple of topics that Joanne and I frequently touch on is you got clear that clarity piece. A lot of times we end up in a place in our life and we're like, how did I get here? It's like, well, you allowed life to push you in directions randomly. You didn't take control. And you talk about getting clear on what you want and finding that purpose and then also being empowered, not a victim of your life. Life's happening to me, but you are choosing, and I love that combination in order to create your purpose.

There's a lesson in everything. Everything. The worst thing that happens to you, there's a lesson. And so listen and learn and grow. Don't sit and wallow and despair, but listen, learn and grow.

And because you're so clear on your purpose, Pamela, we were sharing at the beginning of this podcast, we had a bunch of technical issues. You just had a big storm come through. Your WI fi is out. You said you're recording in your car. You, you talked about a recent tornado and you show up and you've got your beautiful smile and you are so intentional. And you texted me before saying, hey, I don't know if this will work, but let's give it a try. And you get into your flow even when the bumps are coming, and you show up with a smile. And I just want to point out how powerful your role modeling is for others. When I see you advocating and speaking out on your posts on social media, when I listen to your TED Talk, it's very inspiring. And I think, like, how can I be more like Pamela? How can I be more of an advocate? And so I just want to congratulate you on being such a wonderful role model. And I'd like to ask you about one of the topics you've been posting on a lot about racial pay disparities in medicine. And I know I've pointed out some of the stories I've heard between male and female doctors, and you pointed out some discrepancies and helped raise my awareness of some even more egregious pay discrepancies. And I would love to hear some of the information you are advocating about and raising awareness to other individuals and physicians out there.

I'm glad you asked that question. I wasn't even thinking about that. But. And one thing you said, how can I be more like Pam? How can you be more like Erin? Here's how you do it. There is something that you are passionate about that pisses you off to the highest levels of passivity. And that is the thing that you speak out on. And when I coach my clients, I always tell them, the thing that you probably should be doing is I do a lot of business and life coaching people like, I don't know, what should I do? It's probably the thing that pisses you off to no end, you know, and you get into that thing and you be the change you wish there were. So here's the thing that I didn't even think about. I have a lot of colleagues who are in medicine like me, especially African American physicians. And I'm like, well, why are you struggling? We're doctors, you know, I'm not struggling. I do pretty well. I make good money. I realize I'm doing better than many of my peers. And I'm like, wait, wait, what's going on? Well, the average black female physician makes a 100,000 less than her white counterpart. I've gotten some different Statistics, but usually from JAMA and Medscape. And I know I've seen as high as the average white male making somewhere around 350. Why? The black female makes the low two hundreds. And then the scale goes that white women are next in terms of pay, and then black men make a little more, and then the white men make the most. And it's not just because of picking specialties. It's within your own specialty because they accounted for that. Because you're like, well, maybe it's because they're cardiothoracic surgeons or so on and so forth. Because that's what I thought at first. Well, I was like, well, maybe all the women are in pediatrics and primary care psychiatry. That's not it. And here's the core of it for me. I got blessed. I got lucky. I had some great allies and colleagues. And also I learned early how to negotiate. We. My first job, I was just so happy to get a job. I wanted to be a doctor my whole life. You know, I'm neurodivergent, so it was unlikely that I would become a doctor. And I was just happy. Give me. I'll take whatever job and just pay me something and it'll be okay. That is the mindset many women go into negotiation with without having research, without knowing the market for the area, without talking to other people doing similar jobs. And so one of my first jobs was really my second job in a major hospital system. I was making. I was making what I thought was great money. I was so happy with this contract. And one of my colleagues, Sarah, I will never forget her. And we're still good friends. She sends me pictures every year of her kids and her family. But she pulled me into her office. She says, hey, Pam. She's like, so what are you being paid? And I was like, you don't talk about that. Because they teach us. That's like talking about something uber personal. And she's like, no, Pam, we need to talk, because if we don't, they'll get over on us. What do you make it? And I told her, and she says, are they paying your loans? And I said, no. And she was mad. She threw a stethoscope down. And she says, you go back, you go talk to the chairman. You tell them you won't work another day until they pay your student loans and give you a $10,000 raise. I was like, I can't do that. I just got divorced. I need this money. She said, do you have drug problem? I said, no. She's like, you show up to work every day, you have good patient satisfaction. Go get your money. Scared I did it and guess what? There was no pushback. I said, okay. Didn't even look at me, just said okay. Signed off on it. It was on my next check. That was my first lesson. And my second lesson was when I began in the ER because I was working in private practice for a while, but then the ER was paying more and I'm glad I did that right before the, you know, so I went to the ER and Randy, we're still good friends now too. Randy was working there. She says, pam, did you get your sign on bonus? I was like, no. And she said, you go right in there, you get your sign on bonus. And guess what, guess what? They my pay increased by 75,000. I got a 75,000 sign on bonus because of a friend. So I've learned how to negotiate.

I think as women, we assume we're going to be given what we're worth. We're going to be valued. And I remember hearing a story about a male and female physician on another friend's podcast where there was an $80,000 difference in pay. Same job, same department, same, you know, credentials and 80,000. And they thought it was a mistake. And, and the feedback was, no, he asked for it, she didn't. And you're sharing information about even greater discrepancies in paying. And so if you were to have someone, where did you start to learn to be more likely to advocate for yourself? Or where did you learn those skills besides being encouraged by your friends or colleagues that cared about you enough to help you succeed even more financially?

So I learned from my allies. And so you need friends who understand the system. Don't be afraid to ask. Number two, don't be afraid to talk amongst your peers. It's okay. The system wants you not to talk. They want to save money, but they should be fair. And number three, research the market. The data is everywhere. We live in the information age. You can ask ChatGPT what is the average physician who does whatever specialty make in St. Louis, Missouri? And that's how you do it. And when you go and you negotiate, we are in a doctor deficit, a doctor shortage. You need to be paid what you worth. And don't be afraid to say, well, I won't take this because if you take a job and you're making less than what you should be making, you'll be miserable because you know they're taking advantage. So pick the job that will pay you a fair wage that you can Enjoy. And if it's not that, then create your own reality. And people think that that is so difficult. It's actually not as difficult as. As long as you don't give up on it. And so, you know, you can do something sensible while you're trying to do something that is really what you like to do.

I have been taking so many notes. Like, there's like a million formulas for success in this podcast. Oh, my goodness. I hope that you're all really listening to all the pearls and nuggets and, you know, wisdom that Dr. Wagedon is sharing with us. And you answered some of the questions that. That I had too. I just want to mention out loud what you just said. Oh, my God, that was so good of find the thing that you're passionate about, but that also pisses you off. And you use another funny word after, like, high levels of.

What was the word?

Passivity. The highest levels of passivity. Because, look, I was trying to do a thing and until. And I was trying to be what I thought I should be, but I said, let me just be authentic and me the way I am, my full black female self, with the way that I was raised and the way that I talk without trying to fit in this cisgender white male box. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but why am I trying to be like him? I am not him. And so when I just did me, then success came.

I love that. I love making up words, too. So just let you know, I'm going to use that word and be like, I have this new word from Dr. Pamela Buchanan. Everyone needs to know specificity.

When I teach my clients, I'm like, you gotta get there, because there, the riches are not in the middle. There's no riches in love. Or you need. People either need to love you or hate you. There's nothing in the middle.

Again, more nuggets here. So powerful. And I had, like, this big question and it went away because I got excited here. Yeah. I've learned to embrace also my, like, my Hispanic ness and let my Puerto Ricanness come out. Like, because I used to be so serious. Like, no, I'm a doctor and I have to tone all of that down. I'm like, no, what? Like, I was literally told that, like, you need to look uglier more like older. And you got to tone that down, even your voice. I was like, like, can you believe that? Like, as a resident, that was some of the messages I heard. But anyways, I'm glad that I'm not there anymore. And I love. And I'm in a big time for transition, so I love what you just said of if what you want is not out there, create it. And with the note of it's not that hard because, right, like, we let our brain fool us into, like, oh, no, it's going to be so hard. And like, well, and even if it's a little bit uphill, let's go uphill. Let's do it. Right. Like, it's so important. Like, love the message.

Yeah. I'm a scientist, so it's science. So you get your momentum, like, you know, Newton's law and object in motion to sustain motion. As long as you're moving towards it, it will go. Especially if you're operating in purpose and you're convicted about it. You're like, I should be doing this. Nothing worth having is easy. I'm not going to tell you that. But it's less hard when you love it.

We usually take notes of quotes while we're doing the podcast, and I. I don't know, how are we gonna choose? We're gonna have, like, five pages of quotes here with you. Thank you. I wanted to ask you because you said so many good things in terms of advocacy and speaking up and finding that thing that you're passionate about. And if there's someone who's, like, hearing you and they're so inspired and they have that thing that pisses them off and they want to talk about it, what would you say to that person in, like, where to start? Like, what. Where would be some good places, like, more specific tools and strategies they can use?

So, first and foremost, assessments. I can't. I'm a big science person. And assessment. I like the purpose factor. Know what the best of what you have is to serve others. So get into that. And then number two, get into a group, get a guide. Success doesn't happen alone. Even the people that you admire, they surround themselves around people who are doing what they want to do, have done it, or working towards that. And so I'm in groups. I've been in mastermind. I have a coach. I have a coach that holds me accountable and a coach for, like, multiple areas of my life. I have a fitness coach because I will not work out on my own. I need to because I want to be healthy and I want to live a long life. I have a business coach because I need to work on my business sensibly every week. I need to be making strides and, you know, I need less and less of a life coach because I'm operating in purpose and I'm feeling so fulfilled that that's less. But I do check in with her. I have a squad, my group of girlfriends, we're all working towards similar things, but all high achieving professionals. We check in every single day.

That's so powerful. And I talk about the recipe of your life and you have created this recipe. And I love how you're like, well, in the beginning maybe you needed more of your life coach. And then as you grow your business, you needed more of the business coach, less of the life coach. And it sounds like you continue to adjust the recipe of the support you're getting, knowing that you need to keep pouring into yourself to keep making those strides, but also adjusting the ingredients, more of this, less of that, based on what's relevant for you today. And again, such role modeling, because in medicine we are so taught to do it on our own. And you talk about having a squad and not just one coach, but multiple coaches. And that accountability factor, I also think it helps decrease the weight. You talk about physics and momentum, right? When you have a coach and accountability partners in a squad, you fall down. People can pick you up and keep you moving forward. And when you're on your own, you fall down. And you got to pick yourself up and find that energy and time. And a lot of times we don't have that capacity. So love that role modeling and that you are paying attention to what it is you need. It has been so great having you. Share so much wisdom with you today, Dr. Pam and I wanted to share with you. As you know, our podcast is named Create Meaning in Medicine, Rewriting the Rules for Women Physicians. And I would love to know from you, how are you rewriting the rules for women physicians?

Number one, I'm trying to be perfect. As you can see right here, right now, I'm in my car because my Internet is not working at home and my computer just shut off. So we're having to piece things together. That used to drive me nuts. It used to ruin my whole day when something didn't go as I thought it should go. So that's one way. I think we need to rewrite it because even in your clinic you get behind and then you're behind for the rest of the day. Just go with it. Actually prepare for it. I have protein bars and things and it's okay. I'm not going to be mad. Just shake it off at the door and keep going. And so I think that's one of the big ways we would write the rules. The other thing is talk to each other. What's the fair salary? What's a fair benefit package? What should I be negotiating for? What's common now? Get into those different groups, get into support groups. I am actually working on creating a group for physicians where we can talk about this stuff, especially females and people of color. And I like the term minority, it feels kind of limiting. But people of color, I'm going to call it melanated medicine because we don't make our fair share. It's in data that the average black female physician is making 100,000 less. How did I get into my 40s and not know that? And the only reason I'm making a fair wage is because my friends who were not black, who were white, who told me what I should be making. And so we need to do more of that because if we want doctors to stop burning out, we need to be fair. We need to make sure that you're getting time off, you're recharging and don't try to brawl your way through it. Just work until you fall out. You do know that average physicians die sooner than the general population. The whole benefit of being a woman is erased when you're a physician. So women tend to live longer than men, but it's erased when you're a female physician. And I think that's because we try to just force our way through life, try to just make everything happen. You can't. So slow down, do what you can and realize nothing has to be perfect. Like we're me recording now in a car.

This is so good. Oh my God. Like we like to summarize. I'm like, how am I going to summarize all these amazing things? This is definitely an episode to re listen and really sit with it and take notes. And there's so many important things that we talked about and that I can hear a part two and a part three with. With all the amazingness that you're sharing with us, Pam. And right. Like we talked about the importance of advocacy and kind of that good distinction of when you're in your doing what you're passionate about, about and when you're in your purpose, it should not feel as work. And that by itself is a protection for our well being and, and protection for, for burnout and having the clarity of what you want. We talked about a lot of that in this podcast and then saying it out loud. And I love your examples of I asked and they said yes. And the awareness ahead of time of knowing what to ask and what's fair and all those amazing things and the importance that we all have a voice where so much of our audience are other women physicians. And then, you know, like Erin was saying earlier, that we tend to just, you know, be polite and be grateful. And, you know, we're here to serve and, and we're also here to be paid what we're worth and to, you know, and it's not necessarily just always money, but accommodations or time off or, you know, changes in our schedule. So all the things that we can advocate for ourselves and then advocate for other people and knowing and creating it if we don't know if it's not there. And I love the, you know, you're saying, like, we're right, like we're scientists. So really look. And I love, we'll look into it, the purpose factor and the importance. And it's something that we're passionate about the community and how much we need it and how we heal in community. And that the importance to find that and have other voices give you information and help you advocate for yourself and others and that sense of fulfillment. And again, I can just keep on going on and on about all the amazing things. So if someone wants to hear more from you and would like to see what's. What you have, what are some good places where they can reach you?

All right, to get with me, you can text the word strong to 55444. That's where I can send you a guide of five ways to decrease your stress. I think it's very important. Also, Dr. B.strong.com and I do have a book. It's called White coat, black face, how to get over your emotional flatline. And you can get that at Amazon as well.

Thank you so much for being with us today, Pamela. You have shared so much wisdom, and I would encourage our listener. You also have a TED Talk that is amazing. And stay tuned for future episodes. I'm sure, as Joanne said, we will interview you again. And with that, we would invite you to not only take, take a look and see where you can find Dr. Pamela Buchanan, but stay tuned for our next episode. It's coming right up.

Do you want exclusive resources and the opportunity to connect with us? Then visit createmeaninginmedicine.com now where you'll dive deeper into how you can create meaning in medicine. And if you're serious about optimizing your results, take two quick steps now. Number one, connect with us on the website. And number two, tune in to the next episode.