131. The Better Physician Life: Dr. Michael Hersch On Creating A Career You Love

You don't have to run away from a career in medicine to be happy. Finding Meaning in Medicine has been really leaning into this profession and just trying to show everyone that you can do this on your terms.

Are you a woman in medicine feeling overwhelmed and disconnected from the personal fulfillment that you desire? You're in the right place. Join doctors Joanne and Erin as they rewrite the rules for women in medicine.

Let's begin in this episode of Create Meaning in Medicine. I'm so excited to welcome Dr. Michael Hirsch. He is a practicing gastroenterologist, husband, father, podcaster, and physician coach who helps doctors create work life balance, reduce stress, and redefine success so they can stop feeling trapped in medicine and start enjoying the life they've worked so hard to build. We're so excited to have you on the show, Michael. And I know I got to know you a little bit through the book White Coats, Courageous Hearts. And we'll talk a little bit about that in a minute. And I would love to hear you talk a little bit about the vulnerability you share in your chapter in this book with 15 individuals writing and how vulnerability actually makes physicians stronger.

Well, first and foremost, thank you both so much for having me. Super excited to be chatting with both of you and to be talking about this book, too, which I, um. You know, I also, I. I did write that chapter. I also was able to pre read the book. I wrote the foreword for the book. And it really is kind of pulling back the curtains a bit on what it is like to be a physician. And not just a physician, but a human being. Because I think a lot of us forget that at our very core we're humans and all of the things that go along with that. And I really love this book because you do get so much insight. And I know the three of us were kind of chatting before we started recording about exactly that. How reassuring it is to go and read other people's stories and for the first time, or maybe not for the first time, recognize that, oh, wow, it's not just me. There are so many of us experiencing the exact same thing in medicine, and we're all just trying to figure it out and navigate through it. And so I really love this book for that reason. And I. I know you guys had Kim Downey on recently, and she's wonderful, an amazing human being and a super connector of doctors. But yes, vulnerability has been a huge piece of. Of my journey pretty much since I found physician coaching. So for me, I. I had a pretty straightforward standard medical career straight through high school, college, Medical school residency fellowship hit the ground running, and vulnerability played very little part in all of that. In fact, I think most of our medical education and medical training is about armoring up and really never let them see a sweat. And it wasn't until I was kind of maybe 10 plus years into my attending career, very busy working clinically, and just kind of feeling like, not really sure what was next, almost looking for an escape route from medicine, that I found physician coaching and really started to explore vulnerability and kind of what it meant. Um, and I can talk a little bit more about that, but I don't want to just keep talking, so I'll just pause there.

And I think that's a. A perfect topic to be in. I know that as I was having my husband read your chapter to me, and he's nodding his head like, yep, he sees, you know, even though you're writing about vulnerability in male physicians, and he's seeing his wife who practiced in medicine for 25 years, seeing me in so many areas of that, and again, recognizing, oh, I'm not the only one struggling with these things. And so I'm always curious to hear, because unfortunately, in my opinion, coaching isn't the norm in medicine yet. And yet all three of us have been so impacted by it. We are all three physician coaches. I would love to hear the story about how you found coaching and how that has shifted things.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, when I found coaching would have been right in. In the midst of the height of COVID so it would have been 2020. I had been in clinical practice again for over 10 years, and my life seemingly was everything I had ever dreamed of. I had my dream job. I was living in my house, which I loved, married my two kids. Really, everything seemingly from the outside looked wonderful, and inside, it really didn't feel that way. I was, you know, very busy clinically dealing with a wait list, trying to manage how do I see all the people, do all the things, how do I show up for my family? How do I walk in the door at the end of the day and actually be present at home and not constantly have my mind going to the cases of the day or what's on the schedule for tomorrow and what was, you know, what needs to still be done? And trying to navigate all of that in the midst of COVID and being scared for myself and my family and going into the hospital every day, I was really looking for a way out. I didn't think I could continue practicing medicine the way that I was. And I just had buried Myself in financial independence, retirement, early blogs, and just trying to figure out how can I just save as much money as possible and do it as quickly as possible so I can get out. And that is when I saw something about physician coaching. It really. There weren't any programs that were available for male physicians. This was the first one. It was a co ed program and they offered just a call that you could listen in on what coaching was like. And I logged in on my drive home, kind of half listening while I commuted home and got home, pulled in my garage, logged off of the call and just went to my house and was talking to my wife while I ate dinner and was like, I, I did this thing on my drive home, but this isn't for me. I don't have anything in common with these other doctors. They were all like complaining about their work and I don't feel that way. And my wife just deadpanned me, looked at me and said, you have to do this right. We, you can't keep going on like this. And it was really at her insistence, insistence that I signed up for that first physician coaching program. And I decided if I was going to invest in coaching, I was going to go all in. So I did, I took it very seriously. I, there was a course that went along with it. I did the whole thing. And within weeks I started noticing that everything was different for me. And then from my perspective, I noticed there were all of these wonderful female physician coaches. It was incredible. But I also noticed that there weren't a ton of male physicians in the coaching space. And so I had such an incredible shift from physician coaching that I decided there needed to be more male voices, more male physician voices in this space. So I decided to become a coach myself.

Michael, thank you so much, first of all, for being here, but being such a strong voice because I'm sure that a lot of people are hearing you and saying, that's me, that's me. Like I'm here hearing you and like it feels like such a mirror in some of the things that we've been through and some of the things that, that we hear so many other physicians talking about and part of why we all do this work. So thank you. And, and I already have so many notes of the things that you've said and distinctions because this is, these are patterns that we need to recognize. And in exactly what this last thing that you just said of you had enough awareness to know. I don't know what it is, but something has to change. How can I get out of this Quicker way out. I mean, you said it big in such a beautiful career as a physician, but yet when you heard these people talking about coaching, you're like, nah, that's not me. And it's not arrogance that we're like, oh, no, no, I'm better. There's no way I'm burned out. Is that what I say is the resilience that goes against us, that we stretch and we stretch and we stretch and we have a sense of responsibility. We still love what we do. So we. We don't want to see ourselves as someone needing help. And Erin and I were talking about the difference in how entrepreneurs think about coaching as an unfair advantage. Why wouldn't I? It's like a athlete. Like, how could you not have a coach? And it's very standard, but for some reason, for physicians, coaching is, you know, like, no, no. Like, you have to be burned out, like, crispy burned out to be, like, needing coaching. And I also see it as a psychiatrist. It's almost like a stigma as well. No one can know that. That I'm getting coaching or that I'm interested in coaching. And again, it's not like a. Necessarily like a conscious. Like, oh, no, I don't. You know, that's not for me. It's. It's. I think it's from a good place of. No, no, I. I really don't need that. And it is an investment, not just financial, but in time. And I love how you said it. Thank you. If I'm gonna go. If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna go all in. And that you recognize the need to. And then said, hey, I can use these tools to help other people. I wonder if there's other physicians, particularly men, because, yes, it's even harder to write, like, ask for help. Who could benefit from this? So, anyways, it's a long thank you with. With all. All those words and, yes, keep on talking. This are. This is a great conversation.

I just want to name something that you. You said as well, was me thinking I didn't have anything in common with all of these other physicians who were speaking. And it really was a lack of awareness because I had all the things in common with these other physicians, and I think that is the gift that coaching gave me. Right. I. I've heard it said before. You can't read the label from inside the jar. And that's what coaching does. I had so much in common with those other doctors, and I couldn't see. See it until I allowed myself to. Sorry, Aaron. I Didn't mean to interrupt. I just wanted to.

I think that's incredible. And thank. You know, I'm so happy that your wife, that you brought it up to your wife and that she helped with my coaching journey. I found my coach, my first coach, through, like, Facebook clickbait and, you know, downloaded some free thing. Then they invited me to do a coaching call. And so mine came out of a pity party for my 50th birthday. And I still remember that it was a discovery call where somebody one on one, called me. It was an hour long. They said, be uninterrupted. I'm in my bedroom. The door is locked because my kids are young, and my family is literally banging on the door. What the heck is mom doing in there? Come on out. What's going on? I didn't, didn't ask for permission. I just signed up for it. And my husband's like, you did what? You paid how much for that? And I was like, I had no idea what I was going to get. And four to six weeks later, he had no more complaints. And he knows it's part of my ongoing lifelong need is working with coaches because he saw the difference in a very short period of time. So I had to do it without permission. But I'm so glad I, you know, however we got there, we. We made it happen. And in Oregon, there was a group, a collaborative of physician coaches out of a 21 of them, every single one of them was female. When I do wellness workshops for the medical society because I'm on the board and I've been the president and we've got a folks focus on wellness, 99% of the people that show up are the women. And I'm always going like, guys, what do you need? What can we do to better meet your needs? And so maybe you'll help us better understand that from your perspective.

Well, yeah, this is a. Certainly, certainly a message. There are, you know, lots of women physicians who are married to male physicians, Right. And this is a message to all the wives listening that your husbands do listen to you. We may not, oh, always seem like we're listening, but we do listen. And so there is some strength in. In kind of the encouragement to. To do these things. And then also, you know, we've talked a little bit about the investment, right. And when I think about the investment that coaching was, for me, I was running away from clinical practice, right. And so I was trying to escape this career which sustains my family financially. And so for the small investment that was physician coaching, I Regained my ability to continue on as a full time practicing physician. And really in addition to all of the other benefits of, you know, just feeling better and raising my awareness and being more present at home and all of those things, from a financial standpoint, I'm still a full time practicing doctor. And so the investment for me is unquestionable in terms of the roi. And I always try to point that out. Right. So many doctors are looking for something else. They're looking for side gigs, they're looking to run away sometimes that's okay, right? None of those things is inherently bad as so long as it's not an escape, right? So long as you're doing it from a place of this is what I really want to be doing rather than, you know, this is what I'm running away from.

And what I want to point out is that you, it doesn't sound like you didn't change spouses or children or houses or jobs or roles. You actually took on more roles and you were sharing about the coaching certification. So you've put even more in time investment in becoming a coach and the time you spend coaching. And yet you're, it sounds like flourishing much more now than you were before, even though your circumstances haven't changed significantly. And maybe I'm wrong. Is that accurate? And if so, it's like what changed you did because of working with your coach or your coaches, Same house, same.

Wife, same kids, same job, same commute every single day. I'm busier than I've ever been in my entire life. And it's all so much more fulfilling because I'm doing it on my terms. And I think that that really is at the heart of what coaching gifted back to me.

And in contrast to that, in my career I pivoted to a specialty 14 years in from general pediatrics that had admissions and NICU and call and all those things to a specialty that had none of those things. But I brought my same habits because I hadn't yet worked with a coach. So I was getting the same outcomes. I was still there nights and weekends, still doing, you know, late hour charting and things like that because I didn't change. And so then when I did get a coach, I was had the same thing. I could keep the same leadership role, still work the same number of hours and then did everything better and was getting better outcomes. Nothing else changed but me. So that's one of the so powerful things that I find with coaching. And if you've never experienced it, you just don't have an idea of what that's like. So maybe that's my encouragement to our listener. If you haven't experienced coaching, look one of us up, give it a try, because you might find some significant changes and you may not need to leave medicine to be happy and fulfilled.

Yes. And I love, and I think, like, we can talk on and on about this, but so many physicians now more than ever, and this is not my opinion. These are facts. Are leaving medicine or going part time. And part of it makes sense because we work so hard and it'd be nice to expand. But I love your distinction of do it because you want to expand, you want to do other things, not just because you're escaping or numbing with something else. That's a really good distinction. And I was actually talking to one of my coaching clients just this morning that. So we as physicians were programmed to be in one lane, and it's like the golden lane. Why would you ever dare to think of anything else? Anything else would be less. Unless it's like, you're doing so well financially that you just want to do some little investments to, you know, create more wealth. But not professionally. Not. I love the word that use fulfillment. We're programmed against that. And it's actually looked down on, like, why would you want to do something else when a lot of other professions, it's fostered, like, not just, like, go up the ladder, but do other things, try other things, even if it's a parallel move. And that's how we grow. That's how we learn, we do other things. And that's part of how I love coaching, that it's given me a different way to help. It's still in alignment with my values and what's important to me. And I, I felt it when I discovered it, I was. I discovered it for myself. Like, I signed up for coaching for myself at a time when, similar to what you said, I used to say, I'm not unhappy, but I'm not happy. That was my phrase. But I usually said, oh, that that's okay. That must be normal. And at some point it clicked to, why? Why am I saying that that's okay? Shouldn't I want more? Because that's the other thing. We're told we can't want more. Like, we're already on the lane. And. And at that point, when I discovered coaching and I thought, this is the missing link, I added it to my plate, but it was so fulfilling, exactly what you're saying, that it actually balanced me out. And it was during the peak of COVID as well. So very interesting. And I, and I was just like, I felt like my heart was exploding. Like we need to help more people. Like this is amazing. Like it, it's such a neat. So I'm glad that we're not that it was planned, but that we are talking about the power of coaching because again, we're here to serve and to have people. What you said of the awareness that if you could feel better, why not? Or for us it's clear if you have more energy, more presence, more awareness for what's important, you cannot unsee that once you know, like there's something that can help me get there, like that's, that's so important, so, so neat. Again, I think we can keep on talking on and on about this. I do want to ask you something a little bit different also from what you talked in, in the chapter. And I've heard you because I, I do my Facebook stalking. I've heard you throughout the years actually talk about this. Of the importance of boundaries, which one of my good friends makes fun of how I say boundaries. She says that I add syllables to the word. And I love talking about it because we don't have them. And again, it's one of those things that gets programmed out of our head like how do you dare say no? And I love talking about boundaries as a way to protect what's important. It's not pushing away, but rather than beautiful fence around you to protect what's important. And I would love to hear your perspective of how you define boundaries and how can it help us as physicians and not just in our career, but in our personal life as well.

Yeah, I think this is such an important topic. And you know, my perspective on boundaries is they not only keep the bad out, but they also keep the good in. And you're right, medical education, medical training does not teach us boundaries. It actually trains us for the exact opposite. We basically get steamrolled by, by medical education and it becomes all encompassing. And you know what? That's important. Right. There is a reason why medical education and medical training exists the way it does. It basically makes medicine a part of our lives. And it's important. And then it's really important to ensure that when we're done with our medical education and our medical training and we're out in the world, that we do find ways to make sure that we have clear boundaries that allow us to be human. The example that I love to give is that, you know, boundaries don't have to be complicated. Right. They just get to Be the thing that maintains your needs. And for me one of those things when, when I was in my training, so I'm a gastroenterologist, I do procedures all day and we were trained that you start doing cases at 7:30 in the morning and you finish cases around 5pm in the evening. And you don't take a break and you don't stop and you can eat if you can figure out five minutes to grab some food. But there's no scheduled breaks in the day. And it really was coaching that enabled me to say, look, the second half of my day is really challenging. I'm starving. There's so much pressure for me to carve out 10 minutes to eat something. I think I just want 30 minutes in the middle of my endoscopy day to eat something. Now seemingly this sounds really simple, right? And, and everybody else in the room gets a break. The anesthesiologist gets a break, the nurse, the tech, everybody gets a break except for the doctor. And so seemingly this should be a really easy request. And oh my goodness, was this like one person after another telling me about how it was going to mess up the day and the flow and how was this going to reduce my RVUs and all of the things that were going to happen? Because I took 30 minutes to eat lunch and do you know what happened when I was like, look, this is really a non negotiable, I really want my 30 minutes to eat. Can we just make this thing happen? Do you know what happened? Nothing, except I got to eat, everybody in the room got a break. The second half of the day is so much more pleasant and everything runs smoothly and all of those things that I was told that were going to happen if I broke up the day and with a 30 minute break, none of it happened. And you know what else happened? A couple other doctors started taking lunch breaks as well and everybody's a lot happier. And so a boundary doesn't have to be this huge thing. It just gets to be the thing that helps you get through your day a little bit more easily. Show up better in your room, you know, if you're a proceduralist and show up better for your, for our patients and our families.

And you said two key things here. Like I'm all, I love distinctions, non negotiables. Right. Like basic needs like nutrition to, for energy to getting side people. I'm a psychiatrist. I don't touch my patients except for like a handshake or you know, a little pat in the back. So. But right. Like it's not like you're saying, I want every other afternoon off to. Which would be fine if that's what you needed too. We're asking something basic and how. Right. Like I can feel you talking about it and I like how important that was. And then we have, we hesitate, like, no, no, no. Like this is how it's always done. Other doctors do it this way. So it's the distinction of the non negotiable. Like I remember something, a decision I made a long time ago that I had to drop my kids off in school in the morning. And there's. There was just so early I could drop them off because it's like the little kids and then the not so little kids. So it's not like I just dropped them off earlier. And there was one way street. It was always very bad traffic and I was always right on time or a little bit late. And it messed up my day. Like then I was stressed out even before the day starts. And I just asked very similar to what you just said with a lot of hesitancy, can I start 30 minutes later? And actually I cut my lunch at that point. I still had a lunch hour. Is that I. I would rather work through lunch. So I had a 30 minutes in the morning. And it created the biggest difference because then I'm not rushing, I'm not in a bad mood, I'm not stressed out. And then I used that time to get organized, to journal, to breathe, to like prepare for the day. It wasn't again that I was, you know, going for a fancy coffee. To me that was a non negotiable. And that was more important than leaving earlier or having, you know, a longer break. And then the other thing that you said that's so important is that your actions set the example. You are a role model for other physicians and for the younger generations. That's right. Like we have to think about it that way. When and when we know it, it almost becomes a responsibility to take action for it. So important. I love boundaries. Talking about boundaries. Not that I'm an expert at them myself. I just write like, can see the importance of it.

And the other piece here is like, other people may look at this and they may be like, of course it's so obvious you just needed to eat your lunch. But when you're in it, when you are just like in it every day, you don't see the possibilities. You just experience your own frustration and, you know, kind of banging your head up against a wall trying to figure out like, why can't this be better. And it really did for me the some of the clarity that came with taking a step back and trying to figure out what do I need? Because I don't think I had ever really thought about what I needed. It was a very well laid path. This is just how you do things. So I never took a moment to pause and consider like, oh, you should just take a 30 minute lunch break. But once it was there, I, I couldn't unsee it. And then it became this thing where it's like, okay, this is a necessity and I do need to push for it. But it was that essential part of just pausing, taking a step back and trying to first figure out like, what do I actually need to get through my day?

And Joanne and I have talked to this before. It's easier to identify what we don't want, what we think we don't need than it is. I don't know how many times I've asked my clients, what do you want instead of this thing that you don't want? And they have no idea because they don't think there's any choices. So I love that you saw I have this opportunity to fuel myself better, to make my afternoons better. And then you shared this is role modeling, as Joanne pointed out. And now other people started doing it and saying we can change our culture. For me, it was taking a walk after our morning evaluations. I worked at a child abuse center for a decade. We, we got a facility dog. It became, made it normal. Instead of chain yourself to your computer and get your charts done every moment of the day that we took a break and we went on a walk when the, the morning assessments were done and we'd gather as many people as we could and it became normal. A 10 to 15 minute walk around the neighborhood. We got off our screens, we moved our bodies, we shifted our energy. We had a lot of heavy weight we were carrying from those evaluations. We were able to socialize and decompress. And then it that became normal to be able to go for a walk instead of chained to your office. So I love that. And that goes into my next question about this belief of a good doctor doesn't do that. A good gastroenterologist doesn't take a 30 minute break to eat lunch in the middle of their procedure day. And so what's the cost of that? A good doctor doesn't do that.

Oh, you have done your homework. Because this is one of my favorites. We haven't talked about, you know, I, I have a new, a new podcast that's launching, and I have an entire episode dedicated to this topic because I think this is such a crucial thought. And it was the thought that really held me back for so long. And I didn't. This is another thing that I just didn't see. I had all of these ideas about what a good doctor does, and there are things that good doctors do, and there are things that they don't do, and you never. You never cross that line. And. And it turned out that the things that I thought, quote unquote, a good doctor does or doesn't do, they were. It was all just made up, right? It was all just these ideas that I had in my head, right? Like a good doctor doesn't go on podcasts and talk about the struggles that. That come along with being a doctor. He just puts his head down and does his job and goes home to his family and keeps his mouth shut. Right? And this was the narrative that was constantly running in the back of my mind. And it really held me back for so long because once I was able to start questioning, is that really true? Does a good doctor really not go out on the Internet and talk about the struggles of what it's like to be a doctor? Right? Is that true? What. What's so wrong about that? How might it actually be true that a good doctor actually does go out and do those things? That's when everything really started to shift for me. And so, yes, you are. You are spot on. This is a limiting belief that I think so many physicians, and I will say, particularly male physicians, hold that is that this isn't. This isn't what male physicians do. And so I, I just, I can't do that. And questioning that and turning it on its head really can be transformative.

I love that. It reminds me of a coaching call I did with a. A physician who owns her own practice. And she was talking about the schedule didn't work. And I was like, oh, you think we could change that schedule to better fit what you need? Who do you need to ask permission to? Because you're basing your schedule on all of these other medical systems that don't work. Again, getting your charts done in time, having enough time. So if it's not working, it doesn't matter that you got it from other broken medical systems. You were the boss. Change it. And she did. And it was just like, who did? Why did she need me to tell her? You don't have to ask anyone for permission because you own the clinic and you could just do it. And yet, uh, yeah, it's, it's incredible. The. I always talk about this little box. I'm thinking about my fingers in this little tiny box that physicians and healthcare providers solve problems in this tiny little box. And as Joanne and I have done masterminds in different conferences with so many non doctors and entrepreneurs, the whole universe is full of possible answers to the question or solutions. And yet medicine keeps trying to, you don't need a doctor, a coach, you don't need a helper, you don't need a therapist, you don't need this. And it's like, you know, how much more broken do we need to get before we break that little box open and find new ways to solve the problems? Because what we're doing, at least in my opinion, is not working so well.

And, and who benefits by us not questioning these ideas and pushing past the kind of the, the box and the boundaries that have been set for us is, is the system that we are also frustrated with. And I think as we start to think about what control do I have, what can I do? You know, we may not be able to change healthcare at large, but we can change ourselves. And I think it's so obvious to me now, but it's something that I didn't see before. I don't need the whole system to change. I just need to be different. And then when, as we change, as we implement the things that we are talking about here today, the system is forced to change alongside of us and it doesn't happen tomorrow. But we do get to be an example of what's possible and help the next generation of physicians do it their way.

That's so important. I love what you said of questioning your thoughts. I always say just because you're having a thought doesn't mean that it's true, that you have to believe it. And I love Byron. Katie and I have coaching clients, physicians that I've been coaching for, for years, some of them, and they know. So sometimes they're talking and then I say, what am I going to ask you now? And they go, is it true? Is it a hundred percent true? It's like, yes, very well. And we can laugh a little bit, which is a good pattern interrupt, and then really be like, well, I guess not, right? But when we're enmeshed with our thoughts, we cannot always see it. Which again, another powerful thing of coaching, to have someone else mirror that and help you recognize your, your own patterns. And, and I love what you're saying and Erin and I have talked so much about it that we can Talk about the system. We can talk about all the external things. We can talk about how we practice medicine the way it's always been, which is I don't know how we're doing that. And that the importance of still saying, and how can I show up differently? How can I guard my energy? How can I be more present? How can I have intention and really pay attention to what's the things that I love about my job? And knowing that if you are very intentional with that, it'll recharge your batteries in a way that it'll protect you from the things that are not so easy about your job. Not to minimize that. There are some real struggles and some people are in environments that are very difficult. But what you're saying, if it. We can't be stuck in that learned helplessness of, you know, why bother? It doesn't. It's not going to make a difference. But if it makes a difference to you, or like you're saying, I could show up to my house with more energy and more presence for my wife and my kids. What's more important than that? And it's. Those are the good reminders. So thank you for, for bringing all, all that up and questioning our thoughts.

I've got the, the book White Coats Courageous Hearts in in front of me here, and I have something circled and it's so pertinent to a coaching call I just wrapped up right before we started recording. And you put in the real. The role of boundaries and career longevity. And so you said ways of saying yes to yourself, yes to taking a real vacation without guilt. And this just stood out to me because this coaching client has been working her job. It's extremely demanding, very uncommon for a woman to be in that position and be able to stay. Everybody told her, you're not going to be able to, to stay in here. And she is. She's so amazing. And we've been having this conversation about her taking time off. A few weeks ago we met and I said, hey, you know, what about time off? She'd come, she was having vacation time was. It had filled her cup. So today I said, hey, what's going on with your upcoming time off?

Her.

One of her bosses had said, you know, it's okay to take vacation, like encouraging her to take time off. And. And I said, so why aren't you doing it? Well, because I feel so guilty about all this time I'm taking off. And he basically said to her, we need you to stay sustainable. We need you to stay here long term. The people who do that, take their time off. And even with that, I said, can you send him a thank you note for me? Like, that is so powerful. Not all bosses have that insight that in order to sustain, you need to refill your cup. And. And I made it right down. When are you going to send that in? What time? Where are you going to do it? Like all the, all the things from James Clear's, you know, atomic habits to make it happen. And that resistance. And that resistance isn't coming from anywhere when but her. And so we said, okay, we have a topic for our next coaching session. We're going to get through that mindset that by you taking vacation, you're going to serve your patients better and your sustainable. Your sustainability is going to be intact and they're going to celebrate you taking time off, not curse your name. And yet it's so. It's so ingrained in us that taking time off is hurting somebody, our patients, our colleagues, and yet it's hurting them when we don't do it 100%.

And I will say, I don't get this right every single time. I can't always take a vacation where I'm completely tuned out of work. And that's okay. Right. And so, you know, you're, you know, I think it's incredible that your client's boss has encouraged her to take a real vacation and it's okay if she can't completely unplug. Right. Like sometimes we need. Sometimes that's a transition. And I know. And I say this person from a personal standpoint because it's sometimes a struggle for me to turn it off. And I just got back from a vacation and I 100% logged into the EMR while I was away. And is it ideal? No. Did I do it? Yes. Did I make sure that, you know, my kids were in bed and the day was over before I did it? A hundred percent. And sometimes we just need to find the right way that works for us. And that's okay.

Yeah. And again, it's all about the intention. And it's when. It's when you know it and you plan it and you say, okay, I need 30 minutes or an hour. Let me do it at a time that's convenient rather than when we're not aware of it, we're just overthinking and we're not. Even when we're not working on it, we're not really present because we're anxious and we're thinking and we can't disconnect even when we're not acting on it. So. Yes, and that's why we say it's a process. It's, it's, this is the work and it's not meant to be perfect, but it's the, the awareness and the intention can, can make a big difference. Before I ask you the, the next question, what's the name of your new podcast?

So the name of the new podcast is Better Physician life, How to get unstuck in your medical career. It is. It launched on August 18th and I'm super excited about it. I, I, I did, I previously co hosted a podcast. This is my first foray into doing podcasting by myself and I'm going to have wonderful guests and hopefully the two of you will join me at some point as I get up and running. And I'm super excited for it and thank you for asking.

Yes, congratulations. We'll make sure to get the link and add it to our show notes so that our audience can follow you as well. This is again, important work and talking about that, I've been looking forward to asking you this question because of course, you know, we're a little biased in that our voice is from a female perspective and I would love to hear from you and from the work you've done with other male physicians that you've been coaching. What, what are some unique challenges that maybe male physicians go through? And you know, this is not meant to be just gender specific, of course, so hopefully it's not offending anyone but you. We understand if, if we, if we generalize it that, you know, that you would like to, to share with us for sure.

And I will say that as physicians, we all have so much more in common than we can possibly imagine. So the struggles, the boundaries, there may be slight nuances that are different between what male physicians and female physicians experience, but a lot of the daily struggles are struggles for all of us. I think for male physicians. I think there is a tremendous struggle to be the provider for the family, to, you know, to provide financially, to protect people, the family, to make sure that our families are, are provided for and cared for. I think male physicians frequently struggle with, with feeling present at home. It's so hard to be home and to kind of shut off the work brain and be fully present with our families, even though we really genuinely want to be. It's hard to kind of downshift from the busyness of our day to day work and then to just get on the ground and play with our kids and get, turn all that other stuff off. There is a lot of Discussion, discussions with male physicians about belonging and community and feeling like there's a space for us, a place to make friends. That comes up all the time when I'm coaching male physicians.

And as you said, so many similarities to the women. I think that the transitions, as you talk about going from work to home and maybe home to work, they don't teach us that in medicine. And I remember my own coach trying to encourage me to have better transitions. It's exhausting to just race from one thing to another without having kind of decompressing from your day and then expecting to go in and be the father or the mother for your kids and then that sense of community. And I know Joanne and I have worked hard to build communities with our own coaching clients and the retreats that we do and our group coaching and with this podcast. And it's so interesting to hear those parallels that the men. And I'm actually having more men come to me and ask about coaching and get introduced to it. So I'm excited about that because if, you know, I thought women were slow to come around, and now maybe if men are starting to catch on, to me, that just means that we're all going to be much healthier as a medical culture when we can come to terms. Imagine everybody having healthy transitions and feeling like they belong and having community instead of feeling isolated. Like, I remember two women in a group course I led. They both said, a week apart, I'm the worst charter in the world. Because we were working on after hours charting. And when the second woman said it, I said, the woman in the box next to you on the zoom call said the exact same words last week. They both felt alone and isolated until we could create a place for them to show up, be themselves, and be honest about what's really going on behind the scenes. Like you were sharing, you know, like, I look all good on the outside, I got that facade up. But behind the scenes, I would say, like, I felt like a mess much of the time. And when we can talk about that mess inside, in a safe place with others who understand, I think that's where so much of the community is built.

And it's kind of a full circle moment for this episode because we started talking about vulnerability. And this is where vulnerability plays such a key role. Because if either one of those physicians didn't feel safe enough to be vulnerable with you about, about their late night charting, you never would have been able to make that connection. And those two people would have kept on feeling alone. Right. It's like The Beatles song Eleanor Rigby. Right. And so the more that people allow themselves to be vulnerable, to lean into the discomfort of admitting to the things that we find challenging or difficult or off putting or just totally uncomfortable with, the closer we are to feeling better because we're so much more likely to find our community in that way.

In. In myself, having spent 10 years in child abuse medicine and dealing with trauma informed care, Joanne, being a psychiatrist, one of the things I love about our coaching practices is that trauma informed lens and being able to provide safe containers for individuals that need to tell their real story and take that facade off. And it's so empowering. And I wonder from your perspective, Michael, what's one step physicians can take today to challenge old beliefs and create more freedom in their work?

I think we kind of touched a little bit on this and that is pausing, taking a step back and asking, what do I need?

Right.

Like, what would make my day less frustrating? Right. Rather than focusing on the negative and about all of the things that are frustrating during our day, just taking a minute and focusing on what's one small thing I can do in my day that will make things better. And for me, it was a lunch. What is it for you that is so good?

I love the power of the pause and asking good questions. Right. Like Tony Robbins says, the quality of your life depends on the quality of your questions. Because if we're asking why does this. That your brain will find the answer. Sorry for the not so fancy words. Versus if we ask what could make this better, what would be helpful? Do I need to actually ask for help out loud? I know that's part of my work and, and our brain will go to work to find those answers and we'll get more creative and expand and get leverage and so important. I wanted to ask you, we love asking this question for our audience in our podcast. It's called Create Meaning in Medicine and we love to hear how have you created more meaning in medicine and in your life?

Love that question. So, you know, I think for me, I felt so burdened by medicine when I was again about 10 years into clinical practice. Right. And I think what helped me find meaning was remembering that part of the Hippocratic oaths is about protecting this profession. And part of the way that I have found meaning in medicine again is by going out and doing this work and helping to protect the profession that we all spent so much time, effort, money, blood, sweat and tears to, to achieve and to do and to get these titles. And so for me, finding meaning in Medicine was finding ways to. To defend physicians, to show up for other physicians, and to show physicians that you don't have to run away from a career in medicine to be happy. You can stay in medicine or leave if you choose to and still be happy. And so for me, finding meaning in medicine has been really leaning into this profession and just trying to show everyone that you can do this on your. On your terms. And it isn't always easy. And there may be people who don't want you to do things your way, and you still can.

Your answer touched my heart. That's so beautiful. Thank you, Michael. This has been so good. I see a part two in the future. We can talk with you forever. Congratulations on all the things that you're doing. And I don't know, I have like, literally pages of notes. And I imagine that our audience is paying attention and taking notes as well. Because, you know, we talked about vulnerability and different definitions of those big words and how it applies to us boundaries, which we love talking about here and love the how you shared from such a beautiful place how powerful coaching has been for you in your own getting coached and then how you became a coach and how you're creating a ripple effect from there and being such a role model and kind of some of the very common limiting beliefs that we have as physicians and ways to challenge those thoughts. And thank you for your male perspective and your unique perspective from an honest place. We always appreciate the vulnerability that we create in this pace. And so if there's someone who's listening and would love to find more information about you, would like to work with you, where can they find you?

Thank you both so much for having me. I've loved this and I'd love to talk to keep talking to you guys for hours, but thank you again so much for having me. For anybody that wants to learn more, you can find me@betterphysicianlife.com everything is there, including some free worksheets and stuff that you can start figuring out how to create more of the life you want on your own terms. And then as we were discussing new podcast, Better Physician Life, how to get unstuck in your medical career, you can download it anywhere on all the podcast players and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast.

Thank you. And we'll make sure to add all those links to the show notes so it's easier for the audience. And again, thank you so much. And everyone keep on listening and stay here. Our next episode is coming right up. Do you want exclusive resources and the opportunity to connect with us. Then visit createmeaninginmedicine.com now, where you'll dive deeper into how you can create meaning in medicine. And if you're serious about optimizing your results, take two quick steps now. Number one, connect with us on the website. And number two, tune in to the next episode.