#103: Building a Bulletproof Body and Preventing Injuries with Jason Fitzgerald

If you run regularly, there's a 3 out of 4 chance that you will get injured this year. The real question is, what is your blind spot?

Yeah, it's kind of wild. Running has an injury rate that's higher than American football.

This is Jason Fitzgerald, certified running coach, bestselling author, and host of the Strength Running Podcast. He has been through it all.

You know, Achilles tendinopathy, IT band syndrome, plantar fasciitis. SI joint strains, all kinds of different muscle strains. I've had most running injuries.

In this episode, we discuss how to avoid the most common injuries before they even start, how to bulletproof your body with simple routines, and how recovery helped Jason come back even stronger.

I went in the pool and I pool ran almost twice a day for a week and a half, and, and I came out of that 10-day or so period of time without any running feeling incredibly fit, and I went on to set multiple PRs in that season. You know, I always think I'd rather you be healthy and happy on the, on the starting line, even if you're 5% undertrained, than the person who's trained perfectly but, you know, they're in a cast.

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Jason, welcome to the Extra Mileage Show. I'm excited to have a deep dive into running injuries with you today.

Oh, thank you, Floris. It's good to be here.

Yeah, I mean, like, we often talk about the topic of improving in our running, but one thing that sometimes gets in the way is running injuries. And this is one area that you have been focused on for many years. You've done your podcast since 2016, I believe it is. So maybe we can zoom out a little bit. And just talk through— maybe you can share a few of the statistics because there's a lot of people who get injured on a yearly basis. But I think people don't often realize how many runners get injured on a yearly basis.

Yeah, it's kind of wild. Running has an injury rate that's higher than American football. So depending on which study you're looking at, you're probably going to find about a 50 to 75% injury rate. Every year for runners. So, I mean, that means, you know, every 2 to 3 out of 4 runners is getting hurt every year. That's a lot. That's at least half of us. And, you know, I, I, I think it's often just because, you know, we don't think of running as an impact sport, but I, I, I do think of running as an impact sport. You're impacting your body against the ground thousands of times for every mile that you run. So, it, it definitely is a good idea to keep that in mind to, to get stronger, to build in training that is going to help you prevent injuries in the first place. Because like you said, it really does get in the way of, of all those big goals that we have as runners. And, you know, I'm someone who I think focuses on staying healthy a lot because I personally used to get a lot of running injuries myself. You know, Achilles tendinopathy, IT band syndrome, plantar fasciitis, SI joint strains, all kinds of different muscle strains. I've had most running injuries. So, you know, I always think I'd rather you be healthy and happy on the, on the starting line, even if you're 5% undertrained, than the person who's trained perfectly, but, you know, they're in a cast. We don't want that.

Yeah, because it's, it's often that fine line, right? Like we can, we can push ourselves hard in training, but at some point our body is going to, like, get postured. It's going to develop further. But we can also push it over the edge. And at that point, the train can just come off the tracks and you can start noticing injuries in a variety of different ways. Maybe we can zoom out a little bit further over there. When you mentioned some of those common injuries, in your experience working with hundreds, if not thousands of athletes over the year, over the years, what are some of the common factors that attribute to those injuries?

Yeah, I'll go back to what my college cross-country coach told us. You know, most injuries are because of the three twos: too much, too soon, too fast. So you're doing too much mileage too soon before you're ready for it, and you're probably running some of it too fast. And You know, this kind of goes back to what a running injury actually is. You know, the formal name is a repetitive stress injury. It's usually not because you stepped off a curb and twisted your ankle. That's not really a running injury because that could happen when you're running across the street to pick up a donut. It could happen almost any time, even if you're not running. But running injuries are because running is kind of a one-dimensional sport. You know, we're sort of just running straight ahead. As fast as we can in a race situation. And that's pretty much what we do as runners. And so, you know, we, we've gotta sort of think about running injuries as repetitive stress injuries because then we, we get better ideas on how to combat them, on how to reduce them, prevent them. We're never gonna get to 100%. So I think it's always good that runners recognize that if you're pushing yourself because you have big goals, injuries are sort of part of the game. You're always going to be navigating some niggle, some element of discomfort, and that's very normal. But, um, we can do a lot to mitigate that risk for sure.

And it's also about identifying when some of those areas are becoming more sensitive and realizing when to back off, right? Because that, that's the other thing, like you were saying, it's inevitable once we start increasing training load, whether that's volume or intensity. At some point our body is gonna like get under more stress and it's gonna start making adaptations. But at some point we might also notice there's a muscle imbalance or something starts to become more sensitive than it should. What are some of these self-check-in like methods that, that you have realized work well? Like when do you feel you realize you gotta back off and, and do you have some guidelines for runners listening here?

Yeah, I, I have almost like a, a 3-step process for figuring out whether you can run through something that you're experiencing or whether it's a good idea just to take the day off, maybe focus a little bit more on recovery, self-care. You can do a lot of other things like strength and mobility to help yourself recover. But you know, if let's say you go for a run and everything feels good, but after 5 minutes or so, you notice that some element of your body is not feeling great. There's a couple red flags that we should look for. Number one, is this discomfort sharp, stabbing? Other words, a severe pain. That kind of pain is something that we shouldn't run through. But on the other hand, if it's more of a dull pain, if it's a little bit more achy, that pain isn't as serious. And often we can run through a more of a dull, achy soreness rather than an actual pain. So it's important to be able to distinguish between the two. Uh, the other thing that I would look for is, does this discomfort or pain get better as you run or does it get worse as you run? Because if, if something is getting more and more painful as you are out there running, it typically means that running is making that injury worse. And so you are simply prolonging your recovery. You're prolonging the amount of time that it's gonna take for you to get healthy. And recover from this niggle or injury or whatever it might be. So that's not something that we should run through. You, you are simply making things worse. That to me is a big red flag. And then the final thing to look for is how the discomfort affects your running form. So if you can go out there and run totally normally, quote unquote, the way that you, you typically would run, that's a green flag. But if you have to compensate and change your gait, change how you run, you're basically giving yourself a self-imposed limp to, to work around whatever the pain might be. That can open yourself up to a whole host of other problems, and we don't want to do that either. So if, if you are out there running and you're not sure if you should go, go through with the run or not, you know, look for, is it changing my gait? Don't run through that. Is the pain getting worse? Don't run through that either. Or, you know, is it more of a sharp stabbing, severe pain? That's also a pain that we probably shouldn't run through. Now, in terms of like how to diagnose certain things, I think, you know, all of us are unique. We run a little bit differently, even though, you know, the, the quote unquote human form when it runs is, is kind of the same. But we all have these little individual variations and every runner is gonna be a little bit more susceptible to one injury over another because of those movement patterns, because of your history, because of the sports that you used to play before you got into running, whole host of different things. So for me personally, it's IT band syndrome. That's what I typically get. It will always be on my left side. Uh, sometimes some Achilles tendinopathy. So I have to just be really careful of the things that I know will exacerbate those injuries. For me. So I can't run in zero-drop shoes because my Achilles will just snap in two. I will never run again. I can't do it. Now, I actually feel really great in 4mm shoes. So I like a low to moderate heel-toe drop. And for me, for some reason, that not only makes my Achilles feel good, it makes my IT band feel really good. I don't exacerbate problems by by trying to run in those zero-drop shoes. The other thing too is, is simply running on a cambered road. So if I'm running on the left side of the road, my IT band on my left side feels fantastic. But if I run on the right side of the road with traffic, which is technically not where you're supposed to be running, then I will start feeling my IT band because of there's that extra internal rotation of the knee. So a little bit of understanding like what you might be personally predisposed to and, and the types of things in training that might make the issue worse, I think is really, really important. So, you know, the, the, the bad thing about all that, Floris, is that it does take a little bit of trial and error. It takes a little bit of, of getting to know yourself, going through some of these injuries, figuring out why it got better, why it got worse, why you got it this time versus another training cycle where you were totally healthy. And so a, a little bit of it is, is going to be frustrating because you kind of have to go through the injury to learn more about yourself, your body, and what you're capable of. But nevertheless, I find that to be an invaluable exercise in just learning more about yourself, and that knowledge is certainly a competitive advantage.

So well said. And I think the power of journaling comes into play here as well when we start to realize certain patterns where we start to realize sometimes after run and we write down like, oh yeah, when I ran on this side of the road, I felt my IT band getting a bit more tired. Or when I was doing this, like you can start drawing conclusions after several things happen a few more times over there.

Floris, I think, can I jump in and just say, I am so in agreement with what you just said. You know, I'm a training journal guy. I have an entire bookshelf of training journals going back to like, 1999. And I love them so much. I, I came out with my own training journal because I want runners to physically write down what they did today. I don't want them just to rely on a Strava upload. You are not engaging with your training as much intellectually. And if you're not writing things down and just including all that subjective feelings, all the subjective notes of How did it go? You know, I, that's my favorite question as a running coach. How'd the run go? How'd you feel? Keep it super open-ended. Let the runner take it in whatever direction they want because there's some really good qualitative feedback in that answer. And that's what you get with a training journal. So if, if you are getting hurt all the time, throw Strava out the window, get, get a, just a notebook, any kind of training journal, and really focus on writing down what you did, but also how you felt, how it impacted you.. I think that's a big step in figuring out your personal injury cycle and then how to resolve it.

Yeah, absolutely. I think the power of journaling cannot be underestimated, and it's, it's one of the topics that has come up most consistently across some of the podcast guests that I've had on the show over the years. I think it's, it's journaling and meditation. Those often get brought up as, as useful tools over there. One of the things that has stood out to me is the correlation sometimes if I start ramping up training volume and it gets to a certain mileage, whether that would be 60 miles a week, 70, or 80, kind of depending on where things would be at. And at some point, the feet start to become tender when getting out of bed first thing in the morning. And that, to me, was often a note of like, okay, let's pay closer attention. Once I start feeling sensitivity under the foot, but even on top of the foot due to training volume, it is, for me, one of the warning signs of like, all right, let's see where we're at right now. Maybe I need some additional step back over here.

So You know, I'm the same way. You know, I always knew I was really pushing the envelope when the first couple steps out of bed, you know, I had aged 40 years and definitely felt a little bit older than I actually was. So that's another great example of you knowing yourself personally and what you're impacted by. You know, I'm probably a little bit more susceptible to lower leg injuries. I don't know, just probably because of my anatomy. Because of the way that I run and absorb and transfer force through my legs. So that to me is also a big red flag. Like, of course you're going to be a little sore getting out of bed, but, you know, if you are really struggling with, with moving around and those first couple of steps are even painful, which I've been there and I know what that feels like. Yeah, that's a red flag to me that I was pushing the envelope a little bit too hard. Maybe I need some more cross-training today. Rather than the run, and, and you can sort of start modifying things from there.

What, what are some of your favorite exercises, both on a strength and mobility front, to reduce the risk of injuries for runners?

So I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to specific exercises. You know, I think, uh, anyone who's been injured and gone to a physio or a physical therapist has probably been exposed to a lot of different, more runner-specific isolation exercises like, bridges and side-lying leg raises and clamshells and planks and a lot of these types of exercises that I think are all pretty great. The key, I think, is not to get too bogged down into like what exercise is doing what. And, you know, I did these 3 exercises, but Runner B over there is doing 4 different exercises and I'm like, let's just do all 7. You know, like I think there's value in a lot of these exercises and I think runners should instead just focus on routines, you know, like follow a routine, you know, and a pre-established workout that has already been built so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel, you know, every time that you go running and then you finish up your run and you're like, oh, let me do a couple exercises. What do I do? I don't know. Let me just do the same two things that I've always been doing like that. Let's, let's be honest, that always happens, right? And I'm guilty of that too, myself. But having a routine that might include 5 to 10 exercises that you go through maybe twice or 3 times, I think is a lot more effective. And, you know, there's certainly, you know, different categories of exercises, right? Like we can go in the gym and do certain weightlifting exercises. We can stay home, put down a yoga mat, and do a lot of bodyweight exercises. And then of course, there's a lot of great dynamic flexibility and mobility exercises that I think can be really helpful. And, and they're all helpful not just to keep you healthy, but also to get stronger, to help you maintain good form when you start getting tired during a very long run, a workout, or a race, and just generally increasing your athleticism and coordination and all the things that we don't really think about as runners. You know, I, I actually like to tell runners think of yourself as an athlete that specializes in running. You're not just a runner, you're gonna do other things. You know, you're gonna do some drills, you're gonna do some dynamic warmup exercises. Yes, we're gonna do some strength training. I hope you're doing a little bit of cross-training in there as well. And then the running that we do, we can vary it, you know, so that we're not succumbing to those repetitive stress injuries. It's one of the reasons why I love trail running so much.

Totally same.

Yeah. Like the, the, the certain exercises, I'm not sure. I love 'em all, especially the fundamentals, squats, deadlifts, overhead presses, bench presses, lunges, planks, side planks. Those are all some of my favorites.

The part that you just mentioned that really rings a bell of see yourself as an athlete who does running as well as other things. I think it's a really good way to frame it because I see Many runners out there who just have 6 hours available, 8 hours available, and that's all they do running for that many hours, right? And for the rest, it's all an afterthought and it doesn't really happen. Whereas I had Dr. Rangan Chatterjee on the podcast and he talked about when you make your coffee, just do 10 lunges or 10 squats or like integrate some sections throughout the day or setting aside a few days a week where you just dedicated a 15 or 20-minute routine. And I think it's the simplicity and the systems indeed that you set up, like you were saying, that will actually make sure that it happens versus only going out there and running.

100%. Yeah. I mean, I, I would actually rather a runner cut their run short by, you know, a mile or, or 10 minutes or so, and then get in 10 minutes of, of bodyweight strength work or mobility work after a run. 'Cause it's probably going to keep you healthy. And that is in turn going to allow you to get in more training overall in the long term. So it's a short-term reduction in running, but I do believe it's a long-term increase in running. And I, I think you're 100% right that we need systems, we need some sort of process. If, if you're just sort of kind of relying on remembering to do some lunges, you know, at certain points throughout the day, Yeah, I've tried that. It doesn't really work too well for me. Maybe it does for some runners, but I always just forget. And you know, I, I have this kind of simple concept of sandwiching your runs in between a dynamic warmup and a post-run core or strength workout. And so th— this, this kind of ties into that idea that you're an athlete that specializes in running. You're— that doesn't mean you're only gonna do running. So yes, you have your run, but we are gonna warm up dynamically for that run. It can only take 5 or 10 minutes, but just a series of maybe some light strength exercises and mobility work, really gonna get you actually prepared for that run, both metabolically, but also, you know, increasing your range of motion, lubricating your joints, opening up some capillary beds. It's gonna reduce your injury risk and it's probably just gonna make you feel better for the first mile or two of your run. And then, you know, finishing up the workout with 10 to 20 minutes of bodyweight strength work. This is where you can follow a routine, a workout that, that someone has already put together. I have a whole bunch of these free routines on my website too that anyone can search for.

Yeah, I'll make sure to link to that as well in the show notes.

Yeah. And it's just an easy way to like not think about things too much. Like, oh, I need to create a strength workout. Runners aren't good at that. Nope. We don't even want to do that. We'd rather just go run a little bit extra. So that's why I like these routines. You kind of just plug them right into your training, get on with your day, you know what to do, and you can just do that.

That is, that is so well said. What are some of your favorite cross-training workouts for athletes? Because I think at some point, like, athletes go through their peak years and then they realize, like, I want to keep training at a certain volume. And I might realize, hey, the body takes a bit longer to recover. Maybe I should start looking at some other cross-training options. Do you have any particular cross-training that you feel supplements running well as a runner?

Yeah, I think maybe cycling might take the cake as the best cross-training option for runners. You know, and there's probably some very close second and third place finishers in there, you know, with pool running, with the elliptical. You know, I think the Arc Trainer is very similar to the elliptical. These can all be used very effectively. And because the motion is very similar to running in all of these forms of exercise, the carryover to running is, is pretty good. So, you know, if you added 2 hours of cross-training on top of your normal running schedule, and, and let's say you did a combination of cycling and pool running, I think you're gonna become a better runner. I mean, not only is that a couple extra hours of general aerobic development, that's really going to help, you know, take your endurance to the next level, especially when you consider most beginners are most limited by their aerobic fitness. This is a really good, uh, almost cheat code or shortcut to getting into better shape without the injury risk of running because there's no impact. You know, with cycling, you're not even, bearing any load. You're sort of just sitting down on the seat. So you do need a little bit more cross-training to get the same effect. You know, my college coach used to say that, you know, 10 to 15 minutes of cycling is the equivalent of, of a mile of running. And that's when, you know, the college runners, we were running about 7-minute mile pace. So you kind of have to add in that like 75 to 100%, you know, conversion rate almost when it comes to cross-training. But nevertheless, I think it's a fantastic and underutilized option for maintaining a certain volume. So you might go from running 50 miles a week to 30 miles a week, but you make up that 20 miles with cross-training. Or it can be used as supplementary training. It's done just on top of your normal training because maybe you have a stationary bike in your fitness room or your garage and, you know, you can just do that very conveniently after you put the kids to bed or something like that. You don't have to go anywhere, but next thing you know, you're getting an extra 2 hours of aerobic development every week. You know, one week isn't gonna change the trajectory of your running, but if you do that over the course of 6 months, yeah, I think you're gonna be a much better runner.

Yeah. So, so well said. I've even in between, like I've, I've had it before where I had a very short period of time between some of the world major marathons and I still had certain time goals, but I still wanted to recover well in between. And sometimes the body just wasn't feeling fully recovered. One way that I've found, even for high-intensity cross-training, was going on an elliptical and doing, let's say, 8 times 3 minutes on, 1 minute off. And that to me was a really intense workout without necessarily the wear and tear on the body. It was cardiovascular, it was quite challenging, and I was sweating a lot. But like my entire body or some of the areas where I previously had some challenges when doing a workout like that outside running, when I wasn't fully recovered yet, it seemed like the impact was significantly less. So I think even high-intensity cross-training can sometimes be an interesting supplement.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. I've mostly just been talking about the volume benefits of cross-training and how you can get that extra aerobic stimulus, but you can certainly do a workout, quote unquote, on the bike, on the elliptical, in, in the pool, and kind of maintain your fitness over the course of a short period where you may not want to be running, you may not be able to run, but you don't want to just take that time off. You know, I, I personally, I got injured during my last indoor track season when I was a collegiate athlete, and I just kind of thought the season was over because it's like a 6-week season. I had to take a week and a half off, and, and that kind of, you know, really just shortens your, uh, your trajectory. And I went in the pool and I pool ran almost twice a day for a week and a half. I got in like double the volume, but I was also doing a workout most days. And, and that's almost the, the dirty little secret of cross-training here is that because the injury risk is so small, especially with something like pool running where there's no impact, you're not even putting a lot of power through a pedal, you know, you're sort of just working against the resistance of the water. It's really hard to get injured. And so not only can you basically double the volume that you normally would be doing, but you can do a workout almost every day. And I came out of that 10-day or so period of time without any running feeling incredibly fit. And I went on to set multiple PRs in that season, and it's almost like I didn't take that time off at all. So sometimes the cross-training can bridge the gap between an injured runner and a performing runner. The only problem is that you still have the mindset of the injured runner and you think that you're not going to be able to race very well. So that's something to keep in mind too. Like, you're still working really hard. It's just not exactly what you're used to.

Yeah. Let's talk about pool, pool running for a minute though, because I found this interesting. I hadn't really done it until about 2 years ago when I started having some calf issues in between multiple races in a short period of time. And my friend Lawrence, he told me like, yeah, start diving in the pool and start doing some besides just swimming, which I enjoy doing as cross-training, actually. Going out there buying— so you can buy these floaty devices for those who are unfamiliar, and you put it around your waist and it basically makes it much easier for you to float up closer to the surface so that you can actually have a proper running form while you're in the pool. And like some people can be pretty close in place, but typically like you would go from one side to the pool to the other if it's a deep end and it would take a few minutes. You go fairly slow, but you're actually working quite hard. I found it a little bit harder to get your heart rate up, but— and the time doesn't go fast at all. Like, you'd be in the pool for 15 or 20 minutes and it feels like a 2-hour workout. Like, you literally just were out doing it for 2— and I'm like, the time is going so slow. But that was another thing. But the interesting thing was, indeed, I did truly feel that I didn't lose that much fitness at all. And even Lawrence mentioned some examples of athletes that he had worked with that were quite badly injured that ended up doing the pool running for several weeks. I think it was like 4 or 6 weeks and then had only about a week left to do some road running and then ran some of their best race times. And I thought that this was pretty eye-opening, that indeed you think that you lose all this fitness, but if you put in enough time and effort in the pool, that there's a lot of ways that you can cross-supplement that.

Yeah. And the only major drawback is, like you said, Floris, it's incredibly boring. And you are, you are going to be in the deep end of that pool and you're barely going to be moving. You're going to be inching towards the other side. You're going to be moving at what feels like a 5K race pace and your heart rate is only in zone 2. It is just not the most fun thing to do. And I'm glad that when I was basically pool running for 2 hours a day, which I do not recommend, it's not fun at all. I had a friend on the track team who was also hurt and we were able to do a lot of it together and kind of basically just do fartlicks in the pool, a certain amount of time on and time off. But, but you're absolutely right. I mean, I, I think there is something special about the pool. You know, the, the water will reduce your heart rate a little bit and, and it'll be lower than if you were doing the same effort, say on an elliptical or a bike. But nevertheless, it, it, I don't know, something magic about it. You come outta the pool just feeling really good. Um, I, I'd love to know some of the mechanisms behind that, whether, whether it maybe is the lower heart rate or just the fact that you can get in a higher volume and with even including some intensity, but then there's no impact. You know, you're not weight-bearing at all and you come out of that just feeling just incredible.

I, I think the other part with water in general, whether you take a shower or a hot bath or a cold bath or whatnot, even going in the ocean or the pool. I feel every cell in your body just gets activated. Like with running, yes, you're running outside and you feel some of the wind on your skin, but every time when I'm in the water, you literally feel every part of your skin just gets touched by water. And so I think there's a lot of sensations that you experience, which has a feel-good to it as well.

We need to finance a study on this, Floris.

That's what we need. It is. Oh, we just need to spend more time in the water and just enjoy it.

So I think there's something uniquely perhaps meditative or psychologically soothing about water, relaxing in the pool, but at the same time you're working hard. There's something to be said about that. Yeah, I'm gonna see if we can figure this out at some point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about some, like, one question that came up? I mentioned in my last podcast that I was gonna have a conversation with you, and one of the questions that was submitted was by someone who said, What are 3 to 5 strength or mobility tools that wouldn't necessarily break the bank that you would recommend? I think we can do a lot with body weights alone, but if you would recommend some, some reasonably affordable tools, anything come to mind there?

Yeah, I think there's a couple that you can do a lot with that are fairly inexpensive. Probably the least expensive option is just, let's say, an exercise band. You know, that'll give you a little bit of resistance and you can put this, you know, say around your ankles and you can do, you know, exaggerated, you know, lateral walks. You can do monster walks, you can do, you know, those lateral leg raises and clamshells that I mentioned earlier. And the resistance band really just adds a little bit of extra weight or resistance to the exercise. So it's almost like, you know, you're holding a dumbbell or you're just adding that kind of extra, you know, stress to the exercise without needing a whole gym of, of tools and equipment. The other thing that I really like is a kettlebell, and, and you can get a couple kettlebells and do a whole variety of exercises that I think are fantastic for runners. But the kettlebell itself is particularly helpful because it's just a little bit more versatile than say a dumbbell. You can hold it a variety of different ways. You can do a lot of one-arm and one-leg exercises while easily holding a kettlebell. And you can even get into some more, you know, power-oriented things where you might be doing kettlebell swings or, you know, some more explosive exercises with a kettlebell. That, that can be really helpful, especially if you're training for, you know, a shorter distance where you might need to, you know, activate your nervous system and really focus on that kind of explosivity a little bit more.

One question about the kettlebell, like, I have a few over here at the house, and one of the things I noticed is it is very easy to buy a kettlebell that's too heavy for your current strength level. Meaning, like, I ended up buying, like, I think it was a 30 or 40-pound kettlebell, and then I was like, whoa, this one requires a lot out of you, and you gotta watch out that you don't wreck yourself, especially if you don't use the proper technique, even with some of the swinging. So what, what would be a good beginner's weight for someone who's getting more into strength training, who wants to start working with a kettlebell, both from a men and women perspective?

Yeah, that's a really good question. Let me preface it by saying I remember a strength coach once, once telling me that he would actually rather you have a kettlebell that might be a little bit too heavy than too light. And, and one of the reasons for that is because when something's kind of heavy, you brace yourself and you sort of have to think about good form and, and putting yourself in positions that are less risky from an injury perspective. And so I, I wouldn't recommend just kind of getting like an 8-pound, very light kettlebell and then trying to do kettlebell swings. You know, the weight of the kettlebell helps you stay in the right position and not kind of flail around with, with, with a weight that's too light. So with that said, you know, I think it's actually beneficial to, to buy 2 kettlebells. I know that's a little bit more expensive than one, but buy one that you think might be a little bit too light and one that's a little bit too heavy, and then you can learn a little bit more about what is probably best for you. And, you know, for most people, if You know, they're just getting into any kind of strength training, you know, probably a 15 or 20-pound kettlebell is probably a sweet spot where they can do a lot of different exercises, get to, get to know that feeling, really get comfortable with the implement itself and how to, you know, how to hold it, how to use it for different exercises. And then, you know, maybe, maybe the more advanced athlete or someone with a little bit of strength training experience can use a 30 or 40-pound kettlebell. 40-pound kettlebell. But once you start getting beyond 40 pounds, you're probably talking about just strong people who probably have a background in strength training or other sports where, you know, they can actually do, you know, some of those more legitimate lifts. You know, like, I am personally not a very strong person. I know I'm like the strength running guy over here. I will typically use a 20, 30, and 40-pound kettlebell, based on the exercise, based on whether I'm warming up. You know, the 40-pound kettlebell, I don't use very often. I will almost use it as like a finisher. You know, if I want to do something really hard at the very end of a workout, I can use it for kettlebell swings. But if I'm doing, you know, overhead presses, or if I'm doing most kettlebell swings, I'll typically kind of settle around the 30-pound kettlebell. And I am about 145 pounds, 5'7". I'm, I'm not a big person, but I found that those weights tend to be, you know, the 20 to 40 pound range is where 90% of runners are gonna find the most value.

So we have the, the ru— the rubber bands, like the stretch bands, or at least, yeah, like the lateral exercises. We have the kettlebell.

Are any other one, any other tools coming to mind? Let's see, I will say your, your classic foam roller, and I'm going to choose foam roller over something like a scraping tool or a massage gun for the simple reason that it's a little bit more interactive when you're on a, when you're on a foam roller, you have to decide exactly what position to put your body in, how much pressure to put down on the foam roller and also what kind of movement you're going to do. Are you gonna go back and forth? Are you gonna go up and down? Are you gonna kind of just sit there and, and let the muscle relax a little bit through that pressure? And I think that, that interaction, sort of like the training journal, right? You don't wanna automatically upload it. You wanna actually interact with your training and reflect back on it. The foam roller is very similar. You kind of want to, Explore your body a little bit, dig in with the edges of the foam roller. You dig in with the big middle part of the foam roller and really just see how your body responds to it. What feels really good? You know, there are certain things in your body that you might love to foam roll because it just feels really good and some other things that don't feel good at all. And I think that's good feedback. It might just be because you're— you might be incredibly tight you might have some sort of imbalance that you discover because one side feels a lot different than the other side. And this process is not only restorative, yes, you're going to feel a little bit better afterwards. You're gonna be a little bit more mobile, but I also think it's educational. You're gonna learn more about yourself. And anytime you can learn a little bit more about what your body responds to, how it, you know, kind of, you know, responds to different workouts, you know, are you really sore after a long run? But not sore at all after a fast track workout. Okay, that's feedback. That's— and you might only learn that because you're spending time on that foam roller, really digging into certain muscles and feeling those trigger points. So I think the foam roller is an undervalued training tool because of the education piece.

What are your thoughts on vibrating foam rollers? Like, I know there's a variety of different foam rollers out there. You have like the old school ones that are very smooth. Then you have the one that have like a certain pattern in there or certain like ripples in there. And then there's the vibrating one. Do you have any thoughts on some of the technologies in the, in the foam rollers?

Yeah, so I'm a little bit agnostic on, on the different tools. I recognize that they all just do some different things. So the foam rollers that have a lot of protrusions, they have almost like a, like a bumpy surface to them, they might be better at kind of really digging into your muscle and providing a stronger massage stimulus. So, you know, if you're not really sore, that might actually be quite good. But if you are really sore, it just might be overkill. It might be way too intense. And you know, that, that stimulus is not really going to be too helpful for you because you're short, you're sort of just, you know, you're too cautious during the entire foam rolling experience. And that just means you're not going to be getting into the muscle very deeply. For certain muscles, those bumps, those ridges, those protrusions can be even more helpful in getting you a more effective massage. So I know the soleus is a muscle that, you know, is sore for a lot of runners, particularly your 40+ males who for some reason tend to get a lot of calf injuries when they keep training really hard. You might want the more aggressive foam roller for that muscle because it's not incredibly sensitive and you do need to dig into it a little bit more substantially than, say, you know, the belly of the calf muscle, which might be much more sensitive. And maybe you don't want to massage that as aggressively. Now, the vibrating foam roller is interesting because I think the vibrations just kind of add a little bit of of, of like a, a neural stimulus. They almost calm down your nervous system a little bit. So it might be helpful if you're dealing with a niggle or you're dealing with something that's just, you know, we might call quote unquote too sore. It, it's just giving you some issues. And that foam roller that has the vibration to it, it might help relax the muscles around it, the muscle itself, so that it can just feel a little bit looser, a little bit more supple.. And so that extra, that extra stress in there with the vibration could, could be helpful in those situations. Although to be 100% honest, I don't think there's a huge difference between a foam roller that's flat, a foam roller that's ridged, and a foam roller that has the vibration. You know, don't go crazy thinking you need all three. I think I have a regular foam roller and someone sent me a vibrating foam roller. I like the regular one a little bit better just because it, you know, I don't know, it did— the vibration is almost too much for me personally. And so that's another example of just finding what you personally like.

Yeah. And I think that's a good call even about what is too much, because with some of these, especially when we're even doing foam rolling, sometimes even if you roll your IT band, you're talking about sometimes it can feel good, sometimes it can feel like rather sensitive. And I feel we do have to listen to that. I think we don't have to go David Goggins on our IT bands or on some of these other areas because realistically, I think if it's very painful and very sore, very sensitive, you have to be cautious. Those are some of the signals from our body too. And I sometimes have some of those massage guns and I've sometimes used it on my calf or my Achilles when it was sore or tender. And even at the lowest setting, it was sometimes quite sensitive. And I feel you have to be cautious because I also see people who are like, oh, let's go for another torture session of like a massage gun or a foam roller.

And it's like, yeah, I feel like you're doing more harm than good really at that point. I agree with you. Yeah, there's certainly a, a time and a place for massage and there's a time and a place for an aggressive massage. So, you know, a, a great example of this is when you cross the finish line of a marathon, don't go to the massage tent and, and get a massage. It's only going to make your soreness worse. Like, you need rest at that point in time. You don't need to inject more stress on your body and have someone dig into already sore muscles that probably aren't hydrated, that, you know, just have already been damaged with all those microscopic muscle tears because you just raced a marathon. And, you know, that, that's the extreme example. But smaller examples are, yeah, you just did a track workout or a very long run. And you don't need to spend 30 minutes on a foam roller. I actually like to tell runners, you know, maybe a minute or 90 seconds per muscle anymore, and you're getting into that territory of just kind of beating yourself up without any real benefit or value to it. So you can certainly go too hard on any massage modality. I like to just kind of save it for your easy or moderate days. 'cause then you'll hopefully feel a little bit better for the harder days to come. But on the hard days itself, your body's already dealing with a lot of stress and it's probably not, not a good idea to add to it.

We have a lot of different runners listening to this who are anywhere from in their 20s into like 80+. And so there's, there's quite a wide range of listeners. But let's say for runners in their 30s doing strength training versus runners in their 40s, 50s, or 60s or beyond, like, is there any difference in approach in some of the athletes that you work with on a, on a strength perspective, on a mobility perspective? Do you prioritize it more as we pass a certain age?

Like, tell me a little bit more there. Yeah, that's a really good question. I, I, I do think it's probably more important for the older runner, but I also would say that I don't think I prioritize it more for the older runner because I want the younger runners to build the habit now, cuz if you're 32 years old, you can probably get away with a lot of stuff. Just like if you're 22, you can get away with a lot more, right? Like you can go out with your buddies on Saturday night and have a, a couple too many, still get up in the morning and crush your long run and you're probably gonna feel pretty good. At 40, that gets a little bit more challenging and then at 60 it's probably impossible. Same thing with a lot of shortcuts that we take in training, whether it's a lack of strength training, running your easy days too fast, increasing your volume or your intensity too quickly. You have more bandwidth for those kinds of what, what we might call training errors when you're 20, 25, 30 than you are when you're 45, 50, 60. But with that said, I love kind of doing what's what I would consider ideal training, even if you are in your twenties and thirties, because we're setting the stage. We're, we're, we're developing the habits now so that you don't have to completely reinvent how you approach running when you're a 45-year-old masters runner and all of a sudden you're getting hurt all the time and you don't know why. You're doing all the same things you normally did and you never got hurt. Well, what's changed? Your age. You know, you, you don't have the same testosterone levels. You're probably not sleeping as well at that age than you did when you were 20 years old. And you're just not recovering as much. So while I do think it's probably more important when you're an older runner, I don't really like to focus on it anymore other than let's be super consistent. And, you know, ma— maybe the, the 25-year-old runner is doing more bodyweight work because they don't like lifting, and honestly, they probably don't need it as much as the older runner. But the older runner, I think, actually needs to get in the gym You know, the resistance bands are great. They can do a lot, but save those for some easy workouts twice a week. Let's actually get in the gym and do a real weightlifting workout where the goal is to get stronger, not just, you know, do some running-specific injury prevention prehab type work. Let's actually work on becoming a stronger athlete, improving our coordination, you know, maybe doing some explosive exercises so that we can really turn that strength into that, you know, neuromuscular fast twitch kind of responsiveness that'll help you kick hard at the end of races. So there's a lot of benefits to that, but I do think it's probably a little bit more important for the older runner to actually be in the gym to, to, to lift heavy weight and, and really work on their strength because strength is declining as we age. Muscle is also declining as we age, and if you only run, You are gonna be one of those 60, 70-year-old runners who is likely suffering from sarcopenia. You're very, very thin and your injury risk is gonna be incredibly high.

So over the years, you have interviewed hundreds of different running experts like elite athletes, recreational runners of different levels. I'm curious to hear from you, what are some common threats or what are some, some of the key lessons that you have taken away from that over the years working with athletes and interviewing all of these different people on the podcast? I know it's a pretty broad question, but you have, you have had so many hours of these conversations that I'm just curious, like I mentioned earlier, like, ah, for me, journaling has come up often or meditation has come up often, but just want to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, I think it does depend on sort of the type of person that I'm talking to on the podcast. And, you know, I kind of talk to anyone and everyone who might have some sort of value to provide runners. I like to think that the listener is an elite runner and I wanna surround them with the sports psychologists and the physical therapists and the coaches and the strength experts and all those people who could help them. So it does depend a little bit, but I would say the elite athletes have a very uncanny relationship with the process of training. They kind of, they, they do all the little things they're really into. Executing on the plan, but also being very flexible with the plan. You know, as long as everything's going well, they're, they're going to do the dynamic warmup and the foam rolling and the drills and the strides. They're going to take exactly the right recovery and do the workout just like their coach prescribed them to. They're not going to cut any corners. They're going to stay hydrated. I mean, they, they basically treat running like a job. And for many of them, it is. And they just have a very professional approach to running. And I think any runner can take a more professional approach to running, even if they're not a professional runner. And I think that's often the perspective I have just as a former, you know, college track and cross-country runner. You know, I certainly was not pro. I was not even close to being a pro runner. But if you run in college and you're on a team and you do that consistently, you realize that You're basically approaching running like a professional. You are, you have the resources at your disposal, but you're also expected to, to do things a certain way. There is a standard that is set and it's a very high standard. You don't need a coach or a team or, you know, all those resources to approach your running in that way. And so that's something I've definitely taken away from high-performance runners is this commitment to the process. And, and I think any runner can do that. Any runner can, you know, really commit themselves to doing what I think every runner knows they should be doing, but often, you know, we don't want to, or we cut a corner or insert this excuse or, or whatever might happen. So that's a big thing that I've picked up on from, from pro runners and elite athletes. Uh, and then everyone else, what I'd say is, you know, whether you're a sports psychologist or a strength expert or a running coach or a physical therapist, what I've learned is that there's definitely best practices out there. And I think a lot of runners just wanna figure everything out by themself. At least that's been my experience as a coach, and I've been coaching since 2010. So I've, I've, I've, I've seen a lot of recreational runners and talked to them a lot and, and just kind of experienced how they approach the sport. And, uh, the, one of the things I've learned from these various subject matter experts is that, you know, there are best practices for most of us. There's always something to learn. And if we want to, we could get really good at sports psychology or keeping ourselves healthy, or, you know, getting good in the weight room with our strength training, no matter what it is. And, uh, I, I think one of the things that I've tried to do on the Strength Running Podcast is demystify some of those best practices. You know, it, it's not under lock and key, it's not in a black box somewhere, and it's only available to Olympic caliber athletes. It's available. Most of, most of these best practices are available to all of us. Um, and you know, I, I think it can be hard because there's just so much content online these days. And, you know, a lot of influencers today love to run marathons with no training. And, you know, the running coaches out there are just like, oh my God, that is not how you're supposed to do things. Like, can it be done? Sure. But it's certainly not in your best interest. You're not going to have as much fun. You're not going to perform as well. And so my goal as a coach is to hopefully uncover and try to broadly distribute these best practices because I just want to elevate every runner's performance and it's entirely possible.

Yeah, early, like the, the previous point you made got me thinking as well about like the whole no stone unturned, right? As in like looking at all of the different parts of your training and of your life and what is it that you can do to help optimize your running performance or your health. Matt Fitzgerald, he went to like Matt Fitzgerald, um, from 80/20 Running and he wrote a variety of other books. He's been on the podcast a few times and he went to a high altitude training camp, um, in Flagstaff. And he was 46 years old and he wanted to train with the elites and experience what that was like. And that was one of his main conclusions, very much in line with what you just said. It's these guys, they treat running as their job and they don't leave a stone unturned, meaning they look at every element that they can control and they're not like, ah, this is what happened. Like, okay, so be it. No, it's like, what can we do to optimize this or fix this or improve this?. And I think there's a lot of recreational runners that can take something away from that as well. Another podcast guest is a recreational runner. His name is Andy Wheatcroft. He's from the UK, and he mentioned something similar where he is like, when I take a very honest look at my training and my racing and, and all of the different things that I'm doing, am I really putting in the effort? Am I really doing what I said I was going to do? And very often you realize that you kind of let yourself slack with some of the nutrition, or you kind of didn't sleep that consistent when you knew you could have.. And I think that honest self-reflection is another big one that, that often comes through.

Yeah. And we often don't really want to do that, do we? We, we don't really want to be honest with how well we are showing up for the sport of running. And look, I, I fully recognize that most of us are not professional runners. It is not our number one priority. And when Matt Fitzgerald, you know, we like to joke together that we are brothers from another mother. When he went to Flagstaff and, and trained with, I think it was the Northern Arizona Elite team. I, I still have a bone to pick with him, by the way, because he ended up running like 12 seconds faster than my marathon PR. What was that? 2:39, right? Yeah, I ran 2, but I did it in 2011. I, I was— without carbon plate to choose. Yeah, exactly. I didn't have any carbon plate to choose, or I certainly wasn't eating enough carbohydrate like we know today. But yeah, I like to joke with him that he needed to train with an elite team to beat my marathon PR. But, but, but yeah, you're exactly right. Like it, it, it's sort of eye-opening to put yourself in that environment where everyone around you is, is just kind of operating at a really high level. And, and I certainly experienced that going from high school to college where a lot of, a lot of people on the high school track team they're just there for an extracurricular. They're there because, you know, they, they want something to do after school. But when you get to college, all of a sudden you're being asked to run 2 to 3 times the volume that you did in college or in high school. And, you know, there's certain expectations on you and it's like, it's not as fun, quote unquote fun. But for me, I just wanted to be a fast runner. I, I wanted to improve. I loved it. And getting exposed to a group of individuals that was so committed to the process. And I wanna be clear, that doesn't mean that you kind of just hammer your training plan no matter what. It's almost like, well, if something goes wrong, there's a process for that too, right? Like you don't just kind of throw in the towel. You, you, you almost have a plan B, C, and D for almost anything that can happen in your training. And, and that kind of an approach to running, is probably the biggest game changer that anyone could sort of implement in their training, right? I would say, you know, go, go read some good running books. You know, maybe you hire a coach for a single season. You know, you don't have to make it this long-term thing, but then use what you've learned to understand what the process of training might look like for you, and then stay committed to that.

A few last questions. I want to be respectful of your time over here. If people get injured, do you have any advice for them mentally to work through it? Because I know sometimes people have such identity of I'm a runner or I'm nothing kind of part. Do you have any thoughts just to navigate that landscape of injury until you get back? Because I think sometimes you get injured and it's like, now I can't run, but there's a lot of other things you can still do throughout that recovery process.

So talk to me a little bit more about that. Yeah, that's actually something I've learned from, from talking to a lot of high-level coaches and physical therapists is that if you get hurt, the training doesn't stop. You might not be able to run, or you might just be able to run a little bit, but that doesn't mean you're not training. And this goes back to the idea that runners don't just run, right? There's a lot of other things that we can do. And I have always found it to be most helpful. And I think it's kind of the healthiest psychological approach is that when you get injured, let's attack the recovery and rehabilitation with the same zest and vigor that you attacked your training with. So you might not be running an hour and a half long workout today, but you might do 30 minutes of, of physical therapy work. You might spend an hour in the pool doing some pool running, and then you're working on mobility. You know, that, that's a pretty good training day. You know, like I, I'm a running coach and I'm impressed by that. You didn't even do any running. So, you know, there's a lot we can do and, and I think Um, recognizing that injuries are part of the game. It's just sort of going to happen. It's like if you're an investor and you lost your mind every time the market went down, maybe this job just isn't for you. Like the market's just going to go down. Same thing with running. You are going to get hurt sometimes. The goal is just to not make that injury really, really severe. So attacking your recovery with the same enthusiasm as you did with your training, I think is probably the most healthy mental or mindset approach to injuries. 'Cause it, at the end of the day, it gives you something to do. And I think that's the big problem when runners get hurt is that they've spent an hour or two every day doing this thing that they love, and then all of a sudden it gets taken from them. If you have something to do that's similar, that still is moving you closer to your goal, then I think that takes off a lot of that psychological pressure and just recognizing that, you know, you may not be following your training plan anymore, but a training plan is written in pencil. It's, it's like a set of directions to your final destination. You're simply taking a detour, but don't worry, you're still gonna get to that final destination. And, and, and that recognition, I think, goes a long way psychologically to preventing runners from just kind of, you know, catastrophizing. They think the world's going to end. I know because I was that runner, you know, like every injury was just like, well, now my season's over. But if you dedicate yourself to the recovery, it doesn't have to be over. You might come out of that injury not only stronger and still running great times, you know, like I mentioned my adventures with pool running and how I kind of thought my season was over, but I went on to to run multiple PRs. If you can do that and still be working toward a goal, then I still think you're moving in the right direction. You might not be going as fast to your final destination as you previously were, but you're moving in the right direction, and that's a good place to be psychologically.

Yeah, there's still a lot of control you have even when you think everything is out of control, and just keeping that in mind. So that is Quite a few people looking to become a stronger, healthier, happier runner. Do you have any closing thoughts here? Any advice for, for people to, yeah, basically improve in their, in their running, improve in their overall health, happiness?

Very specific to this conversation is just understanding kind of the hierarchy of things that are going to keep you healthy. You know, I think good training is the number one thing, and that's making sure that you're not progressing too fast. Making sure that your easy runs are truly easy, you're including some strength training in there, you're doing some mobility and flexibility work, really making sure that, you know, the training itself is sound. That's, that's going to go the longest way to keeping you healthy. It's not the foam roller, you know, it's, it's, it's not any of the tools that you can buy. It's the training itself. And then, you know, I think in terms of like how to keep yourself happy in the long term, You know, I know I've mentioned how valuable it can be in just, just kind of being honest with yourself that, that injuries are a part of the sport and, and they're going to happen. Your job is to reduce their frequency and to reduce their, their scope, their scale, their severity. And, and those things I think give you more control over the process of training. You know, there's, there's the, the element of letting go. Of not having control, and that is recognizing that injuries are going to happen. But then as soon as you notice something is happening, being very aggressive with treating it, with managing it, with accommodating that injury so that it doesn't turn into, you know, a 6-month-long injury where you can't train at all. Because those are the instances where you lose all kinds of fitness. You really start to lose your identity. And, and it just becomes a lot harder to come back from that kind of an injury. But if we are aggressive and really dedicate ourselves to the recovery and injury rehabilitation, then I think we can, we can be better runners even through all these injuries because it's impossible to, to, you know, completely prevent every single one.

Man, you shared so many great insights. Seriously, I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

Jason, where can people find more about you? Well, if you're listening to this podcast, you might enjoy the Strength Running Podcast as well. But my home base is strengthrunning.com. That's where you can find, you know, we have an award-winning blog. There's all of our free email courses that go into different topics as well as all of our different training programs. And then finally, there's the Strength Running YouTube channel where about once a week I will post a video talking about many of these different ideas that we talked about here, although I might go into a little bit more detail on each specific point in the video. Awesome.

Thanks again very much. Looking forward to going for a run with you next time I'm in Boulder or actually in Denver, you said, right?

So next time I'm in Denver twice a week for trail running, you know, I probably should have moved to Boulder. But yeah, let me know when you're here.

We'll definitely enjoy some trails. Yeah, I'm definitely there a few times out of the year. Otherwise, when you're—

whenever you're in Los Angeles, let me know as well. We'll make it work.

All right. Sounds good, man. Will do. Thanks for watching or listening. I'm currently in Olympic Valley a few days before the start of Western State. There's a trail running conference over here, a bunch of different brands and creators and people from the running space out here.

Super interesting.

Last few days we've been going on some morning runs here and some evening runs, and I'm not gonna lie, some of the altitude, some of the hills, it definitely is a humbling experience to say the least. Um, I will say though, I've started running a little bit more, a bit more consistency. Had my first long run, 20-mile long run last weekend. That felt good. We've been sitting in the sauna more. That's been super fun. I'm going in the sauna like 20 minutes in, then 1 minute out, 20 minutes in, out. Like, we do that 2, 3 times with some friends. That's been super fun. Adding in some more of the strength training too. I think Jason really touched on a lot of good things here for injury prevention, for overall feel-good, for energy levels. There's so many benefits here in strength training. So if you're not doing any consistent strength training in your routine yet, I can highly recommend prioritizing that because every time I do it afterwards, you just feel very good. I would love to hear from you. What was one of your favorite lessons, takeaway, or quotes from this episode? Would love to hear from you in the comments below on YouTube. I'm going to head back to the Trail Conference right now and then getting some more runs in. I would say have fun out there on your runs, be patient in the journey, and we'll see you again at the next episode.

Bye now!