#106: Running After 40: Lessons To Improve At Any Age, with Sean Lee

You think you can't become a faster or stronger runner after the age of 40? Meet Sean Lee, who started running at the age of 45.

You know, nothing valuable in life comes easy. You know, you have to put that in a perspective where if I want to get something good, you have to work at it.

At the age of 55, this Los Angeles runner has accomplished more than most other runners can dream of. 17 marathons with a personal best of 2:54, 2 full Ironmans and 25 ultra marathon races, including UTMB, Badwater 135, and the Angeles Crest 100 Mile.

3 weeks ago, I had a great race. I was able to put everything together, all the mistakes that I had and all the new things that I learned.

But Sean's real breakthrough didn't come from just raw talent. It came from finally practicing what he preached.

Even though I taught others how to run, you know, how to prepare, you know, race training and all that. But realized I wasn't even the one who was actually doing it.

His game changer: humbling himself and finally applying the lessons he's been teaching others. And the results speak for themselves.

I was running the last 20 miles like the first 20 miles.

In this conversation, Sean reveals the critical mistakes that held him back for a decade and how slowing down at the beginning transformed his entire approach to racing. If you think age is slowing you down or you've hit your peak, this episode will show you that it's never too late to level up. This episode was brought to you by LMNT. I just came back from a family vacation in Hawaii, and it was hot and humid out there. I went on several different hikes and runs, and hydration is absolutely critical. An electrolyte replacement is very important in those conditions as well. This is where LMNT came in. It is packed with a perfect balance of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no junk. I've been using it daily, and it has made a huge difference for me. No cramping, no mid-run energy crashes, and much faster recovery after those hot sweaty sessions. Many runners in our Personal Best coaching program also enjoy using Element on a daily basis. My go-to flavors lately have been orange and watermelon, especially fresh after a hot run. If you want to give Element a try, they offer a free sample pack with any order. This is a great way to test their popular flavors, and every order comes with a no-questions-asked money-back guarantee. Just head over to drinklmnt.com/flow. That is drinklmnt.com/flow. Hope you enjoy my episode with Sean Lee. Sean.

All right, man.

Welcome to the Extra Mile Show.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, absolutely. We just went on a beautiful morning run on the trails. It was a nice one.

Oh, yeah. Every time when we get a chance to go out, I mean, it's a happy day. I can't complain, right?

Yeah. Best, best day to— best beginning of the day.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

We can take this conversation in a lot of different directions. And I think over the years I've seen you grow quite a bit in your running, both in the road running front, in the trail running and ultra running space. Maybe we can start out earlier when you and I were running. You were talking about learning from mistakes. So maybe we can start out in that area. Over the years, you have made your fair share of mistakes. But you have recently had several races too where things start to click. What advice would you give to your younger self given some of the mistakes you have made? Or what are some of those things that stand out to you that you do differently now in your training or in your racing?

I think that's a great question. I've been running for about 10 years. Started with the road running, not having any really goal, but I knew I could run. So started running with them and, you know, I joined local running club and everybody had their own goal. And of course I had my own goal as well. But just running itself, I realized it doesn't really cut it. You have to have some sort of plan. You need to have a goal. You want to go to a race and all that too. So I do a little bit of study here and there, try to apply to my own race when training. And now looking back 10 years later, I've learned a lot and realized I didn't really apply everything that I learned in my race. Even I taught others how to run, how to prepare, race training and all that, but realized I wasn't even the one who was actually doing it. So it turned out 3 weeks ago I had a great race. I was able to put everything together, all the mistakes that I had. And all the new things that I learned. So because I was, I guess, decent runner, I come to, I guess I became a little bit arrogant in some sense. So I can skip this, I can skip that and still pull some decent time. Didn't realize I was still missing a lot of information in terms of running, preparing before, during, and after the race. So I was looking at one of my close friend, chat, and I was so impressed how much he improved by putting consistent training, training with his trainers. And then he was actually running faster than I am. I was shocked, and I was kind of a little ashamed too. So what I did was actually went to him and asked a lot of questions. And the most recent race, I applied every single thing he taught me. So I kind of humbled myself. I'm not a fast runner. I'm not whatever. I'm going to apply what I'm going to learn from this guy and put into my race.

Can you mention some examples? Like, what were a few of the things? I think nutrition was one of them.

Nutrition was a major issue. All my friends knew I'm known as a hamburger guy. During the race, I eat a hamburger. Like, I crave for real food.

This is during ultra races. This is not you doing a half marathon or a marathon plowing away hamburgers.

No, no, actually, during ultra race, running 100 miles, I create real food like hamburger, pizza, whatever they can give me at the aid station. So if they don't have it, I'm in big trouble. That's what happened last year. So this year I prepared like real food. I went to Costco, I bought those frozen hamburgers and put them on drop bag. We happen to have 8 drop bags. So I had hamburgers and pizza. Well, I had to freeze it. It was a frozen pizza and hamburger because I had to drop up. The drop bags day before. So by the time when I picked it up, they're all ready to go. But besides that, I needed to replenish myself every 30 minutes. You know, I taught others nutrition is super important, keep eating, whatever, but I wasn't doing that before. So most of my races, if it is 100-mile race, I having problem— I have problem at mile 80 or 75. But this time, every 30 minutes I set my watch. So every 30 minutes it beeps and shows me the picture of a drinking cup that I need to eat. So I was taking either gel or drinking or powder or real food every 30 minutes. And it was a completely different game. Till the end of the race, I was not hungry. I was full of energy. And I'm sure we'll talk about that later, but actually I was running last 20 miles, like first 20 miles.

The, the one thing that we have talked about briefly previously is the whole relying on aid stations versus not. And this applies to any race distance. I've seen it in the 10K and the half marathon and the marathon where people think, oh, an aid station is going to have water, it's gonna have Gatorade, it's gonna have gels, it's gonna have this, or even sometimes a race would say they would have certain gels. And I think both you and I have been in race experience where you heavily rely on it and it's not there, or they might have already gone through all of it, or it's not set up or anything like that. And I hear it quite a few times in the Personal Best program too, where people say like, yeah, I went to this race and they ran out of gels and my whole race went like south. Where this is where we often talk about anything that you can control, try to control it. I personally don't rely on aid stations anymore other than for water. And that even when I'm running marathons, I do that. But I think even in your case, like being aware of like, hey, I crave some additional foods outside of whatever gels you can bring on. And so taking some of those own steps and actions, I think is a great way about it.

So yeah, I mean, when you spend enough money on your races and enough training, you want to make sure you put everything else as well for your training. So I think that's another thing that was a little different this time. Uh, I wasn't shy about maybe buying extra gels, even gels with the caffeine, uh, different brands, multiple flavors, because you come to realize if you eat— it doesn't matter how much you like one gel, if you eat the same gel for, let's say, 10 times, it's hard to really swallow it. Yeah.

So this was an interesting one. You told me that with some of your races, on purpose, you don't only buy different flavors, but you buy different Brands too, right?

Oh yeah, yeah, because you know, obviously a different brand has a different texture, different flavors, and different nutrition ingredients. So of course you want to test them out before the race, of course, is obvious. But you want to have multiple flavors, multiple densities, and even some of them has extra caffeine. So if in case you needed caffeine during nighttime, if you don't have access to coffee or caffeine, yeah, it might be a good way to do it. So everything worked out really awesome.

So how has some of your training evolved? Like, you and I spoke about your earlier years of training and racing, and like, sometimes there's injuries along the way, sometimes there's different learnings about intensities. Can you tell me a bit more about your early years and how some of your training has changed over the years?

Okay, my training, yeah, at the beginning I didn't have any training plan. I just ran whatever, and if race comes in, I just go running. Fast as I can, right? Whether I crash or finish well. But over the time, I realized there should be some sort of structure. And that's how I ran into the program, Best Run Program. And also I ran into Maffetone or low heart rate training. Luckily, I guess during COVID all the races got canceled. So I got nothing better to do but just go out and run slow, easy with some friends. That's when I really implemented my low heart rate training, building the base. And upon that, I was so confident any race I can just go run it. I mean, not maybe, you know, super fast, but being able to finish the run and enjoy it, meaning I have enough base on that. So that was super important. And this time when I ran a recent race, it's called AC 100. I had a chance to watch Kilian's recording. As he's preparing for Western State. Because Kilian is known for running all these mountains, but Western State is a running race. So he actually runs speed training and runs flat. And I realized, oh, this makes so sense. Just because I'm running the trail in the mountain, that doesn't mean I have to be on the mountain going up and down all the time. Because the race, Angeles Crest 100, there's a lot of running, especially toward the end. So I realized, oh, I need to put some running, like speed workout, to my training. So last, yeah, last 10 years when I prepared for my trail race, I never had track workout. I took it out and I was always in the mountain running the course or, you know, in the mountain running the trails. But this time, no, not really. On the weekend I was on the trail running, but on the weekdays actually I was at the track doing the speed workout, tempo workout, and also, you know, doing other strength workout, which kind of combines everything together.

It's kind of funny how it was for me. It was vice versa. I was training for road races like a half marathon or a marathon, and I started dabbling into trail running because I felt like, oh, it was nice, it was easy time on feet and like changing of terrain, and it would still be beneficial for road running. Whereas for you, you did it the other way around where it kind of helps bring your speed legs back with some of your speed sessions and whatnot.

Oh, it's definitely, um, On the race after mile 70, there's some road section. It's kind of slight downhill, running road hill. And I don't know, some of the people, they couldn't run, they start walking down. And for me, it was like, oh, this is almost like running the track. Easy. Just use the gravity, just run, enjoying the view. And I was having a— and the funny thing is, I don't think I was even running fast, but I was moving well. I don't want to call myself running because I didn't run all the time. I would just keep moving and I was eating well.

The eating is such an interesting one. Like during, during, I think half marathons you can get away with not eating or like quite often you don't. Once you start going to longer, towards the beginning of a race you feel fine eating and then towards the end, even during a marathon, I think often people kind of get flavor fatigue or they just get overeating.

Yeah.

Like they just don't want to take in any calories or their stomach might get a bit upset or whatnot. And then the long the longer you get, the more food plays a bigger role in it. But yeah, it's an interesting one to find creative ways to keep it exciting to eat. Okay, take calories in, where some people really like mixing up the flavors, whereas I'm like, I need to stick to the same, like this works. So I think once again, everyone is different here, right? And try and error. But I think the alarm is a good reminder there to at least not forget to take that in. The interesting thing when looking at your training is running is just one component and you're 55 years old now.

Yeah, 55 and a half, turning 56 pretty soon.

There you go. So strength training, very important. But then again, even cross-training to get the amount of training you want to be doing, you're doing several different activities.

Yeah, yeah. I do a little bit of rock climbing, indoor rock climbing, or sometimes I'll go outdoor. I don't like going into the gym, you know, doing the workout and paying the all this membership fee, but I want to have fun. So my alternative was going to climbing gym so I can work out on my upper bodies and core, the back, because, you know, all we know, we already know that running doesn't require only the leg strength. It requires a lot of your core, your back, your upper body muscles too, right?

So to anyone listening who might be like, oh, climbing gym, that sounds hard, that sounds far away, I've never done any climbing, I'm only familiar with like possibly picking up a weight or never doing strength training, what advice do you have to someone who has never climbed before? Or what advice do you have to someone who wants to possibly even try what you're just talking about here?

Well, first of all, you gotta have an attitude that you wanna try something new. Shouldn't be fear of doing it because, and not every, you know, rock climbing is not for everyone obviously, but there might be something else that you can have fun in it. For me, fun is the most important thing. Even running has to be fun. If it's not fun, what do I do that? Climbing, it's also fun. For me, it was, it makes sense, you know, going climbing and exercising at the same time. So they want to be a little bit open-minded and try different things. It doesn't have to be climbing. It could be something else that you can be benefited physically and also mentally. So I'll definitely recommend trying different things. And of course, you know, finding a friend who can take you there, you know, by yourself is kind of overwhelming and intimidating, I'm sure. I was like that too. So you can reach out to friends or somebody, you know, coworkers, you know, or yeah.

I think that is such a good point there. Like, I think we can't emphasize enough when something feels intimidating, first of all, yeah, you can break it down in smaller steps and not think that you have to climb to the top of a mountain right away. You can, you can go to a climbing gym and you can like sign up for a beginner class. Like you can make sure you learn the basics of bouldering and you can literally do very gentle, small, easier stuff first, which is almost like walking upstairs with your hands and feet. And then from there on, it becomes a little bit more challenging. But the part of doing it with a friend, that's some of my cross-training activities or some of my newer things. I just did it with friends and it made it much easier. Oh yeah. And sometimes they're more experienced than me. Sometimes we both go into the unknown. But for me, going to the gym with a few or to the climbing gym with a few people who had climbed before, it just took off the pressure and they show you how it's done. And then together with a beginner class also for me, when I first got into the swimming pool to start swimming. This was literally when I— I think it was when I turned around 40. I was like, I'm too old to learn like that. I was like, no, let's actually just go in there, drop the ego, just go with a beginner mindset.

Yeah.

And the interesting thing is, like, once I went and it became a little bit easier, not trying to go too fast, because I think everyone makes the mistake in the pool at the beginning of trying to go too fast, knowing— not knowing how to breathe, thinking of too many things at once. Once. I think many of us like— and so yeah, I think taking that humble approach and not trying to rush it.

And yeah, well, you brought the swimming part, you know, I did triathlon too. So I, I, from like almost zero background swimming, I went full Ironman. But I had the same approach, uh, just humble myself and then just learn from people. And yeah, I think you made a good point that sometimes we try too much Especially when swimming, if you try too much, you make too much splash and create drags and actually it works against you. So you got to go with the flow, easy and enjoy it. And then soon you'll be like, oh, water is not my enemy. You know, you can go with it. Just like running too. A lot of people approach the running as if it is like homework. And I don't like that approach. You know, running should be reward. You get reward after a good hard day of working, family time. You give yourself a gift. You go out there, have fun. And you're like, oh, thank you so much. I can run now. A lot of people, they were like, oh man, I have to go run again. You know? So from the get-go, I think people need to approach in a different manner. And the reason why people having a hard time, like really enjoying it because they push too hard from the beginning. Easy. If it's hard, walk.

But even applying that to swimming, right? Because I think to running, sometimes there's the approach of the run-walk approach. Like you run for a minute, you walk for a minute and like you alternate and then eventually you start running a little bit more and walking a little bit less. I don't know why I didn't think of that in swimming. I was like, I just have to keep going.

Probably because you're gonna sink.

And my friend was like, you can just swim to the other side of the pool and then hold on and catch your breath and then go back again. I was like, huh, there's something, there's something to it. It's like, yeah. One thing we have previously talked about is the way we talk to ourselves. And like coaching, like you mentioned, sometimes I have an easy time coaching other people, but then I don't apply those lessons to myself. Tell me, tell me about that a bit more, because I think that's quite recognizable for some people too.

I guess sometimes, you know, we, we think of ourselves a little highly, so we don't belong to that rule, right? Like whether it's nutrition, hydration, or training, you know, we talk about like don't push too hard because you're going to get injured. But you think that, oh, it applies to other people, not me. And you go out and you run hard. Even your recovery run, you try to show up, like you run like 8-minute pace, whatever. And they're like, oh, this is my recovery pace. I've done that too. I realized, oh my God, I'm like living double standard. And in order to become really, I guess, good runner, that you have to be true to yourself. And if you were teaching or coaching, if you believe something, you have to apply to yourself. And yeah, my recent race taught me so much about myself. I mean, I was happy that I had a good result, but more than that, I was like, it taught me so much about myself, not only running, but as a human, as a person. Like, oh, I am this kind of person. I was saying one thing, but I wasn't even following what I was saying. And then if I did follow, probably I could have had a better result back then than I realized. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. In the last 3 months, I've been working with a life coach on my own. Yeah. And it's been very helpful just to put things in perspective sometimes. Like, as much as I'm coaching a variety of different people, I think sometimes just guiding, like being surrounded by other guides or mentors or coaches or whatnot, And one of the things indeed is very much in line with what you just said there. It's, it's very easy to be like, yeah, you got to be patient, you got to be kind to yourself, you got to slow down, you got to have grace with yourself. And then here I am internally sometimes beating myself up like this is not going right. And this is where it's like you wouldn't talk to someone else like that, the way you talk to yourself sometimes. And it's like, hey, take a step back and almost see yourself as a different person. And you're coaching this person. What would you say?

Yeah, yeah.

Like that. That's been, yeah, that's been an interesting one.

It's like you coming out of yourself in the air, kind of looking at yourself and telling yourself, hey Sean, hey Flo, yeah, hey, let's not go that route. Or, you know, but then many times you get emotional in situation or circumstances and we forget and we try to get things done. You know, a lot of times we have this let's get it done mentality, but then I realized we were missing out a lot of like really important stuff especially in life, raising kids. We talked about that a little bit because we get emotional and even with our spouses too. And I guess another thing that I was a little different this time around was when I went to race, I was so peaceful in my heart. Other races, I had my time goal, each aid station, I got to hit that X amount of time, whatever. I don't know, somehow this time I had less expectation.. And I didn't, I mean, I had time goal, but it was like, like plan B or plan C time. So when I went in, I was really peaceful and I was me and my wife, my kids, you know, and relationship-wise, everything's in tune, great work. I had nothing to worry about anything else. And just me being out there in the trail, on the race, having a great time. I think for me that makes, now I realize it makes a lot of sense. You know, when we go out on a race or some sort of a journey, you know, we have a lot of baggage in the back. We worry about things like, oh man, my payment, mortgage payment, car payments, you know, my job, my health, someone else's health, whatever. So we worry about things and we go away to forget those things sometimes. But if you don't have that, everything is, you know, in life is in balance, then going out, you know, doing a race or something is another reward gift. So you get to enjoy more and I think you can end up resulting better.

It's fascinating you say that though, like going into a race with like less time goal expectations, but just running for the, like to whatever fitness level you have and whatever that the day gives you. And I've often seen that with people, it's less pressure and a better result.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It took me 10 years to really apply that.

And This is where sometimes I have people asking like, ah, what finish goal time should I go for in 4 months or in 6 months? And it's like, let your fitness do what it does in the coming period. Make a rough estimation even and train some of those paces and become familiar with race pace or become familiar with what it's like. But eventually, like, I think it was Nikki who I had on one of the very first podcasts and she was a mother of two. And she told me very specific, she doesn't set a time goal, but then about 6 weeks out, she just looks at where am I at fitness-wise. And from there, she makes some adjustments to like speed work or some of these modifications. But I thought that was a wonderful way of doing it. And it just takes away some of that pressure, really.

Yeah. And also you want to make the adjustments on a race day during the race because, you know, sometimes you feel like, oh, I mean, a lot of times when you go on a race at the starting line, you're all pumped up. It's like, ah, I think I'm feeling it today. I think I can do really well. And then you push. And then if it is marathon, like mile 20, you go like, oh man, I should have slowed down at the beginning, right? We all have the experience. Having that, I guess, discipline to being able to control your, like, at first half. We always talk about negative split. You want to run slower at the beginning to have, you know, like more strength to run strong finish at the end. Unless and until you actually try and apply it, It's hard to really put into practice because, you know, you're afraid that, oh, what if I don't have any more? You know, I need to bank some time. And we always do that. I did that too. But this race, yeah, I was actually pushing myself to run slower. And I was like, okay, let's not go fast. I couldn't run faster, but let's not go fast. You know, race doesn't start till later. I was keep reminding myself. In marathon, we always talk about marathon starts what, mile 20? Yeah, yeah, right?

Rest is just a long warm-up.

Exactly. But how many people do actually warm up doing 20 miles, they try to go fast as they can, and then last 1 mile, their pace goes like—

I think it applies to many distances, 5K all the way to ultras as well.

Yeah. You want to— you made a great point. You need to know, I need to know what my pace is, what I'm comfortable running, 10K, 5K, half marathon, full marathon, whatever distance you're running. First, we have to know your pace.. And then on a race day, if you're not feeling it, maybe you need to notch down a little bit. Or if you're feeling a little better, you can comfortable— you're, of course, you need to check your heart rate, whatever. And then with those, you know, monitoring system helps you to either go faster or lower.

I do want to talk a little bit more about strength training, mobility, like in particular for runners 40, 50, 60, and beyond. So you're mentioning Running, sometimes trail running. I know you do some hiking from time to time, there's swimming. What about anything else like climbing? You mentioned, I think, even cycling.

Well, I started from cycling. I do have a cycling background. We're going to talk about a little bit. I did triathlon, so I did mountain biking, cycling. So I try to mix things together because, you know, running sometimes you get not bored, but you feel like, oh, I need something else in my life. So you bring in a different thing. And strength workout near my house, there's stairs. It's called Hillcrest. It's basically stairs in a park. So when I need to, when I feel like I need to work out my legs, I just hit there. And sometimes I bring my weight vest. Putting either 16-pound, 20-pound, or 10-pound, whatever I could put it in there. I just go up and down making sure I get hydrated.

And tell me more about the rucking. So weight vest, because I've heard different people having different experiences with it. For anyone listening who has zero experience with it, or for someone who wants to experiment with it, tell me how would you go about it? What advice do you have for people starting out with that?

Okay, if you want to try it with the weight vest, definitely you want to start with something light because many times when you go out either running race or even hiking adventures, most likely you have to carry something on your back.

So what would you consider light?

I would say like extra water. So you want to carry your either hydration vest with extra water, one bottle extra waters or two bottles. So obviously, you know, you'll be carrying a little bit more. And once you get comfortable, myself, I purchased those weight vests and those got little sand weight in it. So instead of going all out, there's probably a good chance that you're going to get injured or you're not going to really enjoy it. So I'll start off with maybe a couple blocks front and back, balancing it.

So that is what, 10 pounds? No, no, no.

5 pounds? I would say probably like additional about 2 to 4 pounds. Okay. Yeah, you're starting up like that. And once you get feel comfortable and making sure your joints are okay, you have no pain in your back, no ankle, no knee issues, then you can add a little bit more. And also, it has to do with your distance. You know, you don't want to be running so much or going too far, you know, because sometimes if you do too much, again, again, it's not good for you either. So you want to kind of keep monitoring how you feel, you know, whether it's really helping you or really killing you.

It's an interesting one because sometimes when you put on a vest and let's say it's a little bit heavier, £15 or £20. When you first put it on, you think like, oh, this is totally doable. But when you're a few miles in or when you go up a hill in particular, people underestimate how much of an impact that makes over time. Yeah. Yeah. I also sometimes see people doing races, whether it's a marathon with a vest and a pack or even longer distances. But they haven't necessarily trained that much with it, realizing that, hey, all of a sudden I'm running with a pack that is 5 kilos or 10 pounds or however much, and it totally changes their gait, it changes the way that run feels. And so I think just being aware of how it impacts your running, it's an important one there.

So when you prepare for a race, you want to train yourself not only in terms of speed, but what you want to carry. For example, I went to Paris and ran a Paris Marathon. And realized everyone was carrying their backpacks or their hydration vests on a marathon. I was like, I was wondering why. It turned out that race, the marathon didn't give away no gel. They actually had the cubics of sugar.

Really?

Yeah, marathon, right? So I was like, oh my God. I mean, I wasn't planning to run it, so I ended up running it. So I needed some gel.

Guess what I did?

You sure? I, I was, I was searching for the gels on the floor. Wow.

Because, you know, people try to eat and they drop one here and there, right?

That's hardcore.

Yeah.

So people were running, I didn't want to get stuck in the middle, so what I did was as soon as I found one, I kicked it to the side, side of the street, because there's no runners, right? And they picked it up. And so I had like 2, 3 gels like that.

That's a creative way of doing it, man.

The point is, you know, if you want to run a race with a bag or some weight on it, yeah, definitely you want to prepare and train with it or a little bit heavier, maybe not too much so that on a race day you'll be comfortable. Yeah, I think that's only physically good, but also mentally, you know, that you're prepared. So when it comes, it's like, okay, I've done this before.

I think the rucking is a nice way to add in some weights, even just on hikes, right? To make hikes a little bit more challenging.

Yeah.

Like if you have a hike in your area, maybe it's not as steep or maybe you're, you're looking for a slightly additional challenge. Or maybe even if you're walking your dogs or you're going out with your kids or whatever, just being able to put on some additional weights and train with that. Yeah, it's a low impact but still gradual way of adding some strength.

Yeah.

What about, what about mobility?

You do anything there? I did, but that's something that I need to work on. I'm not a perfect human being, so that's something that I need to work on. And, you know, I've been going through some, uh, apps and YouTube. It's so hard. It's so hard. I mean, I'm like, like I'm a 55-year-old guy. My body is like not turning as used to be. That's actually my next project that I want to be able to spend more time in mobility workouts so that, you know, I can run a little longer and have more fun.

Yeah. Yeah. I think once again, some of the gentle movements and easing into some of it, it's just once again, we have X amount of time available. Yeah. Yeah. And then we tend to gravitate towards the things we truly enjoy doing or we're familiar with. Yeah. Sometimes we push out some of these other things, whether that's strength or mobility or—

Yeah, I come to realize those are actually the most important thing so that we can have longevity in running. So again, you know, after 10 years, I realized, oh, those are the things I need to spend more time and more attention to it.

Yeah. So you have over the years, I know you're part of the Korean running clubs in your area, or like you've run with several different other runners that you have helped guide over the years. What are some high-level recommendations that you have for people kind of getting into running, wanting to either improve their times, wanting to improve their distance, wanting to be a bit more consistent? Do you have any advice there?

For sure. My recommendation would be run slower, run less, and try to find fun in it. You know, it's not— don't, don't be so caught up with your goal speed. You know, people are going to come around and say, oh, you're ready to run a full marathon. You know, let's go, whatever. But I would say no, um, try to slow down. You know, when you build a tall building, you have to spend more time building the foundation so that you'll be stable and raise tall building, right? But I see a lot of people spend less time building the foundation. Whether that's a strength workout, mobility workout, or heart rate training. I think there's a combination of all of the above. So spend less time focusing on your goals and running fast, running longer. Spend more time building the base and enjoy it and try to balance it with your life. Because again, even if you run fast, if your life is falling apart, What good is that?

Well, and you were even saying earlier, right, like with one of your last races, it felt like the rest of your life was in a good place, and it felt like you can run with ease because you had less stress out of your daily life. Oh, for sure. And that made some of the adaptations in training and in race day easier there too.

So yeah, and imagine, you know, you go on a training, your wife is always angry at you, you come back and you went run again, you train again. Versus, oh honey, you came from work, I mean running, okay, great, how was your training? And then you feel much comfortable and you feel like, oh, I'm doing this right.

Plus he probably knows that you need the running to be the best. Yeah. You said an interesting thing earlier and that was running less.

Why running less? Running less meaning not don't run, don't run more than what you're capable of. And just because you're able to run, that doesn't mean that's your capability. I'm talking about speed and distance. People run so much faster than they should and so much longer than they should because they can, not realizing how negatively affecting their body. So it takes a long time for— actually, you're the expert here. It takes longer time time for your ligaments and, you know, joints to get ready to adapt to those kind of speeds. Muscles get built up really quick, so you can run fast, but then it takes longer for your ligaments and other parts to catch up. But if you don't let that happen, you're gonna run into an issue. I have a bunch of friends who thought they're invincible, you know, running 8-minute pace for their recovery after the race, and then now they can't run a whole year because they're injured. So what I mean by run less is not don't run, meaning run less than your capabilities. So you have to know your pace and your ability.

Yeah. I think one other part that's interesting is how your runs feel when you're just getting back into running or when you're starting running or when you come back from an injury or whatever versus how it feels after 1 month or 2 months of consistent running. It can be completely different too. Yeah. Yeah. Yesterday I had a conversation with someone who didn't run his whole life and then started running, and he almost did it as a way of torturing himself or like going out there and just putting himself through the wringer. But it took him about a month and then he went from hating running to actually finding a way to like running. And now he loves running. Yeah. And it's this transition. You almost have to get over the hump. And my conversation with Taylor Nibs, he said a similar thing. Where she's like, if you're just getting into running, the first several weeks you might not enjoy it.

If I take a 2-week break from running, I might not love it the first day or week or month back. Like it takes some time to feel better again. So if you've never run in your life and you're 40 or 50 or 60 years old, like a 2-week break compared to however many year-long break, like it might take some more time.

But give it a chance. So what advice do you have for people to get over that hump?

First of all, I guess you don't want to run by yourself. Probably try to hook up with your buddies or family members, with your spouses, start running a little bit. And well, if you want to listen to something, podcasts or music, or if you want to listen to something else, yeah, it'll help you as well. Don't run too fast. Because a lot of people are hating it. People don't like running because they're huffing and puffing and it's hard. Don't make it hard. Make it easy. Just go run and if it's hard, start walking. And then if you can catch up your breath, then you can start running again a little bit.

Don't run too fast. Last night I had dinner with a friend who said he joined CrossFit. He's now really upset. He loves CrossFit. And he's a 50-year-old guy. He's now like starting to train kind of. Second wind in life and getting really into it. And he was saying, yeah, I went to one of my first sessions and they talked about all sorts of challenges. And one of the things was like doing 100 push-ups. And he's like, he could do less than 10. And he was like, this is so intimidating. I can't even wrap my head around any of this. But slowly but surely over time, he started doing like, all right, let's do 5 push-ups. And then a little bit later, do 5 push-ups again. And then like just a muscle memory over time. And I think this applies to running that you become more comfortable over time. This applies to strength training. This applies to many of these different things. We just have to start somewhere. Yeah. And if it's too hard, just break it down to a smaller step, even if that is doing one supported push-up and then doing another again. And over time it becomes easier. And yeah, I'm just— I'm constantly amazed by the body.

Yeah.

And how adaptable it is. Yes, it's very when you train consistently, you get injured, you feel like, oh, I lost all this fitness. But you would be surprised how it comes back again. You just got to go through the process.

Yeah, I had an injury of rupturing my Achilles from playing basketball, October, and I was back in April running a marathon, Boston, because I already paid for it. I bought the tickets. I couldn't, you know, not go. So what I did was just focusing on what I could do, not so much of a speed work. So I had zero speed workout, no long run, but just worked on my leg, a little bit of strength workout, you know, the best what I can do. Yes, again, it's understanding your body, you know, what it could do. And my, I guess, suggestion for everybody who wants to run a little bit longer, don't worry about the distance. Just start from maybe less than a mile, half mile. You know, even myself too, sometimes people think that I run always like this long, crazy distance. No, like on the weekdays before I go to work, I go to, I go to maybe a, um, call it the track and maybe 3 miles, 4 miles, maybe like 2-minute pace, 30-minute pace comfortably, you know, just enjoying my run.

It doesn't have to be always like training, training, training. Yeah, even it's interesting, like sometimes I have 20 minutes in the morning. And at 20 minutes, it's still, you get a lot of joy out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I recently dropped off my daughter for school. She's now in 7th grade, so she's now riding a bike to school. And the first few times I rode the bike with her, and then I just keep riding, and I now ride my bike to work. And coming from Europe, I'm so familiar biking everywhere, but I've been standard Americanized, freaking driving everywhere again, right? And so now here I am riding my bike to work, and it's 5 5 miles, 8K, and then 5 miles back or something like that. It's a very joyful way of just getting another 15-20 minute exercise in again without even thinking it's exercise. It's just like you either sit in the car for 5 minutes less or you sit on your bike. And so I think the constant movement throughout the day, because you even talked earlier about the mobility being a bit of an afterthought, but I feel very often, like you have a pretty active job, you're on your feet quite a bit, you're moving already, but many of us even listening are probably sitting behind a desk quite a bit. And so I think anything you can do to keep bringing in movement throughout the day, the Europeans are much better at that. And even the Asians are walking to different places and taking the bike or whatnot. But yeah, the more we can do some of the movements. For me, one of the biggest movements that I absolutely love, like Laurens van Lingen, he often talks about the awesomeizer. And I just noticed like it's a really nice way to open your hips. Oh, I know, I know. And like you even stretch your calf, your Achilles, like your your glutes, like the hamstrings, like all of these different things in one mobility exercise. Quite often, if I'm— if I have like 1 minute time, I would just do that exercise, even when it's making coffee or grabbing a water or whatever. It's that mobility. If you can tie that in throughout the day, that's a nice way of getting—

Yeah, for sure. Many times we forget how important those things are because we couldn't get by it. But then, you know, at the end of the day, it'll catch up to us when we get older. So let's, you know, none of us are running any faster because we're getting older. So my point was, uh, you need to, we need to learn how to run smarter.

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear from you. What was one of your most challenging race day experiences and what was one of your most memorable, exciting race day experiences? Like, it might take you a little bit to think about it, but I would love to talk about those a little bit more because I think there's lessons in both. So do you have like a low low in a race that you can think about?

Well, I guess the low low part of the race would be, you know, my running, I guess not a career, but whatever. I wasn't really prepared. So let's say in the middle of the race, telling myself, I'm stupid if I do this again. Because it's not fun if you're not prepared going to race. It's hot outside, it's climbing, my legs cramping, and all the worst bad things happening. So I keep telling myself, oh man, I'm not going to do this again. It's crazy, crazy, stupid. And then once you cross the finish line, they go like, Oh man, I could find this better. You're looking for another way to sign up, right? So I think being up to my race, yeah, I had those moments where I said, I'm stupid, why am I doing this? You know, I'm paying for this and I'm not going to come back to this. But once I started really enjoying the race, I expect those lows. So even if it hit low, it doesn't bother me as much because you expect that. I know Courtney Dauwalter talked about that because she was expecting those low moments. I don't expect, I don't want those moments, but when it happens, it's not a big surprise. So you can kind of, I guess, deal with it. But my highest, I guess, point would be, yeah, last race, running the last 20 miles. This is crazy. I never thought I was able to do that, but everything has to come together from the equipment points, nutrition, hydration, electrolyte, shoes, extra bandana, extra hat, Everything, you know, has to come all together. And my pace management, and that's another great point, that I slowed it down at the beginning of my race, that I was able to run the last 20 miles. And I was shocked that I could run like that last 20 miles. I'm sure it's going to be applied to a marathon or 5Ks, whatever. A lot of times people experience they have a bad pace on the race because their finishing is not strong. All right. If you can flip that and you can have a strong finish, every race is going to be really super memorable.

It really is. I think when you have energy left to give a push towards the end, or at least maintain pace while other people slow down, that just gives you energy. Oh yeah, because you're able to pass people.

Yeah, dropping other runners, I think, oh, as if, you know, it's not affecting me. Is it going uphill? Yeah, they're slowing down. And downhill, even crazier. Downhill, I'm running They came around then. Are you all right?

And then I just go, boom. Yeah, totally. Totally. One thing I'm interested to hear from you is, is there any running gear that you have found helpful over the years? Like, I think a lot of people put emphasis on shoes, but there's a variety of different things that come into play that can help make your running experience better, more enjoyable. Tell me a little bit more about what have you learned over the years gear-wise, because there's sometimes people that it's so overwhelming, there's so many different things out there, there's so much hype, a lot of the companies are marketing different things, but what has worked for you?

Well, equipment-wise, wow, there's so much things I, I can talk about, from the shoes, um, shorts, baseliners, shirts, hat, but if I were to pick only one, I'll pick The light belt, because I know a lot of runners running with the headlamp, but that doesn't— it kind of washes off all the depth of the rock, especially when you run nighttime. I guess if you're hiking, might be all right, but if you're running at night, you want to create— we want to be able to see as much as possible, especially downhill, because you don't want to be tripping and fall. You know, we all experience when you kick rock, not only you're falling, but also you start cramping too. So you want to prevent all that. For me, yeah, it was a night and day change when I had my light belt. It was given by a friend of mine, Mr. Don Mathias, who passed away a few years ago. And he was a big part of the AC community. And his daughter Denise, actually, she sent me the light. So whenever I'm running the race with the light, it's like me running with him. So it gives me something very special. And yes. I do use both the light belt and the headlamp. So it creates bigger, I guess, you know, you can see better visibility and also it creates more depth on the small rocks and whatever you see on the trail so that you can kind of go over it.

This is interesting you're saying that because I've had a few times. Yes, it's when we're thinking about falling on a run, like I do trail running and road running, and typically when I fall, it would be on a trail. It's not that I fall. That frequent, but I've had a few falls on the road as well. And a few times it has been, it has often been at night with not seeing good depth of field. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm, I'm someone who has a headlamp, but I don't necessarily have that belt thing over there. But I've ran with several people who do. And yes, you're totally right. It does change your perspective. So tell me more like what brand do you use? What model do you use? Like, I'm just curious to hear because right now we're at the end summer going into fall, the days are starting to come, come shorter again. I think a proper headlamp can really make a difference in your running, especially for recreational runners too.

So, okay, I'm using a brand called Ultra Aspire. I think it's 600 lumen. I don't know the exact model because it was given by a friend. They came up with something different. And I do have other friends who run longer distance and he loves using that brand. Again, my suggestion would be you go buy one, try it. It doesn't have to be the brand that I'm using, but you want to definitely invest in your head, you know, the belt.

And you wear it, you, it clicks around, you wear it as a belt or you click it on your shorts or click around your, your waist and it has a small pocket on the side so you can carry extra batteries.

And yes, I do. Again, I, you know, wear my headlamp as well as a backup. So in case when I need to change batteries or something happens, you know, you want to have an extra backup lamp anyway.

So I use both of them. Yeah, that's good. And then nutrition, you mentioned both. Yes. For the longer distances, you enjoy gels. Which, which gels? Like you have mentioned, there's several different brands that you're using.

I'm just curious to hear on the gels. If I remember correctly, I had Precision Gels. Especially I like their, the 90 gram, the big one. So you can kind of control your, how much you want to take it in. And also purchased Morton's one with the caffeine and other one with the chia seed on it. I forgot the name of the brand. And also I also bought SIS.

Is it called SIS, right?

Yeah, that's SIS. Yeah, SIS. They had this new thing. I didn't really like the taste, but then I believe there are good enough nutrition in there, so I kind of suck it up and I ate it. But because I was able to rotate it, you know, it wasn't too bad. But I can't imagine, you know, eating the same flavor like again and again.

Then yeah, I would probably drop. There you go.

And what about electrolytes? Electrolytes, um, I, I'm using those salt pills, um, by Press On, company called Press On. And I, I believe they are almost similar, all brand, but how you take it is more important. You know, everybody takes it different, everybody sweats their salt a little different, right? So I start with the, uh, 1 pill per hour, and then when it gets hotter, when I'm sweating a little bit more, I bump it up to 2. And when I feel like I am about to cramp a little bit here and there, then of course I put a little bit more, more often. So maybe like 30 minutes, 2 pills. And then during nighttime, I bring it down as well because you don't want to take it too much as well.. And on top of that, I mix with the electrolyte drinks. So I'm putting both pills and the drinks because, you know, on a race day, hot day, you don't know what you're running into. You don't know how much you're sweating out either. Again, you know, there are so many brands out there. I think the most important thing is you actually taking it. Yeah. It's not so much of what brand you're taking it because I know there's Elementees are good. There are so many different brands, but you want to try out first. And at the end of the day, you want—

you have to like the taste.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. And 100%. And then, you know, the money-wise, it has to be effective as well because you don't want to spend tons of money going in there. It starts getting expensive.

Oh, yeah. You have mentioned previously that you're using the toe socks. Mm-hmm. Tell me more, because there's a love-hate relationship between those. Some people absolutely love them. Some people can't stand them. So tell me more. What is it? What brand is it?

And what's your experience with it? Oh, this was the first time actually spending money on socks because, you know, sometimes when you go to race and they kind of give away as a gift or, you know, put their name on it. But I wanted to try a brand called Injinji. I've been wearing Injinji, but then it was a little too short, but I wanted a little bit longer. And I missed out on all these sales, right? But to me, race was important, so I said, hey, I'm gonna pay full price. So 2 weeks before the race, I ordered through REI and I got it. It was kind of a little bit thinner material, not so thick. Ran 100 miles with zero blisters. I was like, I was kind of amazed too. I mean, I guess it has to do with your speed and, you know, kind of, and then what kind of shoes you're wearing too, not just the socks by itself. And also I learned from Dan Green, who ran Cocodona 250, and how he was using— it keeps your feet dry, okay, basically. So you apply those on your feet. And yeah, buddy of mine told me about Leukotape instead of KT Tape to tape your toe, so I tried that too. So you tape each individual toe? No, I noticed my— you know, when you look at your feet, you can see where, you know, hits the most. And then sometimes you have a hotspot, right? So instead of covering all my toes, I cover only a couple of toes that has a hotspot. Hotspot. Yeah, I know I'm going to run into a hotspot, so I put those tapes before the race.

Yeah, then fine. It's interesting. Before some of my ultras, I've put baby powder on my feet. I tried that too. And like, yeah, anything I could do to keep my feet dry. And it's interesting for you, the individual toe socks worked well. For me, they didn't. Like I, I didn't enjoy the experience and I ended up getting blisters with it. Not even on ultras, even on shorter things. So maybe it was the wrong size, maybe it was the combination of shoes and socks, whereas I've heard other people really enjoy them. So once again, I think what, what works for one person might not work for another, and us testing and seeing what works.

Well, again, you know, testing, you want to give enough trials. Yeah, if you try one time and, oh, it didn't work out, you know, maybe you're, you're right, it could be time of their day, or it could be your shoes, it could be something else, right? So you want to kind of mix around and give enough time. And obviously you can return it later too, right?

Oh, totally.

So you want to give yourself a little trial, see. And I think there's great benefit in toe socks. But at the end of the day, if it's not for you, that's fine.

Because I have other runners, my friends, and he's running without it and just running fine. So you have done a variety of different races from half marathon, marathon, to like Badwater 135, UTMB. You've done HURT 100, like a variety of great races. What excites you about some of your next adventures? And like, after you've done some of these, what, what is next to kind of keep the excitement going?

I think it's about community. You know, when I realized— I mean, I ran AC 100 4 times. Of course, I have my own personal goal, but I really enjoy running that race because I love the community. You know, it's not like running— you know, when you run marathon, you don't let anyone besides your friend, right? But when you run trail ultra races, people at the aid stations, your friends, your brothers, and they cheer you, they help you, and then all the runners, your friends too. So it's all fun, like fun, fun family. Yeah. So for me, when I ran Hurt, it's also another big eye-opener too. It does even greater. There's even more family. So like, oh man, this race, I want to come back. Not so much of the race itself, but I want to be a part of the race. And I want to, I want to like keep as well. I don't want to be at the end of, you know, receiving in, right? All the time. So you want to be a part of the community. And keep running it. And I'm sure there's other races too. Hardrock is one of the good examples. You know, I'm sure people who run Hardrock, they're so tight together, right? So that's something that I'll strive to, you know, makes me excited.

It is a great way you're saying that because I've even noticed for me to go out to certain races and to help out at an aid station, like next month we're going to be part of like, there's a Mammoth 200-mile race and we're going to own one of the aid stations with Path Projects. We're going to be a part of aid station at 108 miles. I will be serving food, we'll be helping out with the sleep station setup. And I think it's the other side of the running experience, which can bring a tremendous amount of joy. Oh yeah. Like even for me to go out at a race, like the Amsterdam Marathon is coming up. Mm-hmm. And my sister is gonna be running it as a first marathon. Wow. And even for me to go out there and to help her out kind of in advance, or like possibly to like cheer on, on the side. Yeah. To be a part of her race day experience. It doesn't all have to be your own racing that can bring joy. But I think it's even another level when you sometimes are helping other people, helping the community, trail maintenance, in whatever way you can be a part of it bigger than yourself. Yeah, for sure. I think that's, that's a wonderful way.

So very well said there. Yeah. So I recommend anyone to just go, uh, work at the, uh, aid station if it's possible. If you want to experience, you don't have to be a runner. You can be out there and experience what people are going through, what runners are going through, and you're actually giving instead of receiving.

And, and actually, at the end of the day, you receive a lot more by giving. If there's any time a local race in your city, and it can be a 5K, it can be a half marathon, it can be any distance, and you send a message to the race and you say, I want to help out, I want to volunteer. Oh yeah, they're always looking for— they're always looking for volunteers. And so I think that's a wonderful way of giving back. It can be a family activity. It can be a great way to show your kids some volunteer work. There's so many checks in the box right there. Yeah, so well said. Where can people find more about you?

Where can people follow you? I have an Instagram, it's called Ultra Sean Min, and it's kind of a little corny, but yeah, I'm not so really, you know, really doing a lot of stuff. But my face— I have a Facebook and it just posts whatever I can post, my races and, you know, how I prepare sometimes and and journaling about my life. Sean is also daily on Strava.

But I'm not a slave to Strava. No, no, no. But I see your runs coming by there. So I'll make sure to put a link to those different channels as well. So that'll be good. In closing, do you have any last thoughts for runners looking to improve, to become a stronger, happier, healthier athlete?

Well, nothing in life comes— nothing valuable in life comes easy. You know, you have to put that in a perspective where if I want to get something good, you have to work at it. So there's gonna be some pain, some uncomfortableness, whatever, but trust that at the end of the day, you're gonna be a winner. So have the positive attitude. And even if you don't want to race, you could be out there just enjoy this little trail. That's— it could be less than a mile.

But just enjoy your life. Yeah. So well said. I think once the enjoyment is in place, the results will follow. And that's how you approach some of your races too. And the result is showing for itself. For sure. Yeah. Awesome. Sean, thanks so much. I'm looking forward to many more runs over here and we'll, we'll talk again more soon. All right, man. Thanks so much. All right. Cheers. Thanks so much for watching. I really loved what Sean was saying there towards the end of the— like when I asked him, what was your future goals? What are some of your future races? And future, like, what do you want to do after you've accomplished many races? And he said, like, it's more about community now and being a part of helping other runners on that journey. And it's very recognizable to me as well. I feel like I've done quite a few races, and as much as racing, it's still enjoyable to me, it sometimes goes beyond that, where even being a part of an aid station and helping out, those things bring me a lot of joy as well. Whether that is pacing, cheering on supporting. So yeah, I can sometimes encourage you as well. If you haven't been doing much of that lately, you might be surprised how much joy you can even secondarily get from being a part of running events, helping out friends going on their own adventure. Yeah, there's a variety of different ways you can do that. I would love to hear from you. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this episode? Please let me know in the comments below on YouTube. The kids are back in school again. It is such a trip after like 3 months of irregular schedule. We're back to normal again, and I feel like I'm also going to be able to train a bit more consistent now. Really looking forward to getting some more consistent running in. On Sunday, it's my birthday, turning 43 years old, going on an adventure with several friends in the mountains. We're going up to Mount Baldy, 6,000 foot of climbing, so that should be a fun one. I don't know, I'm just freaking babbling right now. Hope you have a wonderful running weekend or running week ahead, and, uh, we'll see you again on the next episode.

Have a good one. Bye now.