#109: Can You Really Run Faster Than You Think?

What if your limits aren't real and your best running is still ahead of you?

So many people, they just often think, I'm just not good at this, and then they never try harder. And then of course they don't get good at it because they quit doing it. And the only way they're going to get good at things is to continue to do the thing and to practice. If you aren't limited in what you're, you know, what you can do, because we're really not. I think, you know, Kipchoge said it so well, you know, no human is limited. Don't put that limitation on yourself.

Still remember staring at my Strava screen after running an all-out mile in 6:43. I couldn't imagine running anything faster. That felt like my ceiling. Just 18 months later, I had run several sub-5-minute miles. What changed besides my training? My mindset.

But here's what separates breakthrough runners from everyone else: consistency is far, far more important than intensity.

Are you going to react or are you going to respond? And react is negative, but respond is positive.

Beginner's mindset, smarter training, better decisions— this is how you can reach your potential. This episode was brought to you by LMNT. As we get out of the summer into the fall months here, electrolytes remain to be very important. For me, I've been spending more time in the sauna lately. One of the protocols I'm using is 20 minutes in the sauna and then 1 minute out of it, and I typically repeat that 2 or 3 times. So there's a lot of sweat happening. This is where LMNT comes in to help replenish my electrolytes that I'm losing during these hot sessions. LMNT is an electrolyte drink mix with everything you need and nothing you don't. No sugar, no fillers, just a science-backed ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. It helps me feel sharp, hydrated, and ready for the next run or workout, or just for the rest of the day. LMNT is offering my listeners a free sample pack of their most popular flavors with any order. Just go to drinklmnt.com/flow to get yours. That is drinklmnt.com/flow. Hope you enjoy my conversation with PB coaches Amelia Frebel and Scott Frye. Before we started recording here, we had a few different discussions and even over coffee after our run this morning. One of the topics that came up was about mindset, and you had a few specific points there, Amelia, that I want to touch on. So maybe we can start over there.

Yeah, I think for my running and also just for other things in my life, I've learned over the years how important mindset is to to really, you know, being able to improve in something and be able to enjoy what you're doing. And I think so many people have a mindset that if they're not, they don't even maybe realize this is the mindset they're in, but if they go into an activity and they're not good at it, they just often think, I'm just not good at this. And then they never try harder. And then of course they don't get good at it because they quit doing it. Um, and it's so important, I think, when we're, taking on anything, to approach it with a beginner's mindset and remember that everybody started off not good at something at some point in time. And even though maybe in your eyes they've always been good at it, at some point they weren't and they started somewhere. And the only way they're going to get good at things is to continue to do the thing and to practice and to just have that mindset that, you know, you aren't limited in what you're, you know, what you can do because we're really not. I think, you know, Kipchoge said it so well, you know, no human is limited. Don't put that limitation on yourself.

Yourself.

And even if you are frustrated where you're at in your running or, you know, where you've done in your running, you can always look at it as, okay, maybe there's another way I can do things and another path I can take. And then, you know, you can find improvement from there. And, you know, especially I think as we get older, it's so helpful to have that perspective. And it also lets you start and explore other activities that you might not have even thought to do because even if you're terrible at 'em, you know, you, you can just get better.

That mindset can really make the difference in the end result as well, right? When, when we have talked a few times about the glass ceiling, Coach Jimmy Dean talked about that as well. What do you think is the highest you can reach? And sometimes people have this ceiling, whereas like if we don't have that ceiling and we just think of, let's see how far we can actually get if we just follow the consistent training, if we think unlimited, then we can often get much.

We're just thinking about the next step, right? Like just get to the next step. And when you get to that step, you get to the next step and Don't worry about the fact that there appears to be this big roadblock out here in the future because at some point that will just be a little step. And I think, you know, a lot of it too is how I'm really fortunate that I feel like my parents did always encourage me to try new things and, you know, praise me when I was putting in effort versus, you know, just being good at something or not good at something. I started running, I was not good at it. I mean, it was, and I say that because it was hard. I couldn't do it. I, you know, it's hard when you're a new runner, you don't get the breathing right. And then you just think, you know, how can I not do this? And especially in my case, I was like, both my parents are marathon runners. Really, how can I not do this? And then I just thought, well, maybe I'll just do a little bit at a time or, you know, go out and, and then of course it got easier, it got better. And so it's just then you got to start to see those small wins and then they build on each other and then you realize, okay, well if I can take something that I was quite awful at and actually become decent at it, you know, what else is there out there that I'm maybe awful at today that I could be better at?

So yeah, and I think it even applies to specific distances. How far do we run? Like, oh, I could never picture running a 10K. And then there you go. Like all of a sudden you go a bit further and then half marathon to a marathon. This morning we had a conversation with someone who has ran some marathons who was like, I never even envisioned being able to run an ultra. And then it's like, it's 5 miles longer. You can change your pace and You will be able to do it. You're going to have to train a bit different. Your race day strategy is going to be a bit different. But yeah, any thoughts there at all, Scott?

You know, listening to the conversation, I gather towards those that have taken the first step and conquered that first goal of if they've never tried a specific task such as running a marathon and running a half marathon, and then they do it the first time and they conquer that, and then they start to get a little bit better and a little bit better and all of a sudden something occurs in their life that backs them down. Now, the question is, is what do you do with that in your mindset? Because you've had all these successes building up, all of a sudden you've got a little bit of a challenge coming on. So, what is your mindset when you try to attempt to overcome that? And to me, the first thing I think about is, are you going to react or are you going to respond? And react is negative, but respond is positive. So, you have a choice in how you're going to deal with those adverse adversities when they come up. And I think that applies for people who really have had success but then had a little bit of failure.

Yeah, well said. I want to share a story about last night's conversation with my daughter. She is 12 years old, she's in middle school right now, and they have PE classes and they had to go out and run the mile. And they get graded on all sorts of different things, including in PE classes. And they're throwing out certain guidelines of like, ah, if you run this time for a mile, you get this grade and whatnot. And I had no idea what she was going to do, no expectations or whatever. But she came back and she's like, yeah, I ran the fastest girl in the class. That was a 6:54 minute mile.

That's impressive.

That's an A.

But the next thing she said right away after that, she was like, there was a boy who ran, I think, a 5:30 minute mile. And she said, I could never imagine running faster than a 6:54. She said she gave it her all. She gave it her everything. And funny enough, 2 weeks ago, I wrote a newsletter about this. I have an Extramilers newsletter that I send typically every Friday. If you wanna sign up, you can check out more at extramilers.com/subscribe. And so in that newsletter, I specifically wrote, I'll actually pull it up because this was literally right in line with what my daughter was talking about. And I actually read the newsletter to my daughter. I told her, like, yeah, I have a newsletter. I sent that. She's like, oh, what's a newsletter? So funny enough, we talked through it, but I just want to read the first part of it. And it goes like this: I still remember staring at my Strava screen after running an all-out mile in 6:43. So this was me about 12 years ago. And the title of my Strava read: How the F can someone run this mile in 5:25 per mile, so 3:22 per kilometer pace. I couldn't imagine running anything faster. That felt like my ceiling. Just 18 months later, I had run several sub-5-minute miles, and my race pace for the Boston Marathon was 6:16 per mile. What changed besides my training? My mindset. Here's what I've learned after 17,000 miles. Your mind often gives up long before your body does. How many times have you told yourself, I can't run another step at mile 2, only to finish strong? So we talked through this a little bit more, and this was also for my daughter, like, hey, this is the first attempt for you at a mile and to do it time-wise. You might surprise yourself if you start running a bit more consistent on a weekly basis and see where you end up.

So she's probably not even at her full height yet. So her legs are going to get longer even without More training.

Yeah. No, so there's a lot to it. So.

Yeah.

Oh, the places she will go.

No, it's really, really funny to see that go from, yeah, playing to all of a sudden, I still think she's equal.

But, you know, it's the same thing if you told your daughter, like, you know, let me give you some 9th grade math, she'd look at that today and go, I can't do this. But when she gets to 9th grade, she'll be able to, right? Just the same way she's going to improve in other areas too.

Yeah. So I think for anyone listening over here, having some of that beginner's mindset in different ways, whether that comes to running, whether that comes to other areas, but even within running, it can be running times, it can be running distance, it can be in a variety of different ways. One part I'm really excited to see more and more— this morning we were running at 7:30. We met up at the Back Bay in Newport Beach, and there were hundreds and hundreds of people out there running. Like, the parking lot was full everywhere on the street. Was part and it was full. What I'm seeing more and more too is people transitioning from road running to trail running. And that's something wonderful to see. And I'm curious to hear from both of you because you both have experience with the road and with trails. Do you have any advice for people first getting into trail running?

I mean, so I live in a place where I would say trail running is more popular than road running by a lot. In fact, we probably have more trail races than road races and even the road races are often run on dirt. So I think the main thing though, especially if you're a road runner getting into trail running, is to just throw any idea of pace out the window because, I mean, and I kind of in general tell people to throw pace out the window in training, but even like just the thought of, well, this is my road, it doesn't matter because it all depends on the elevation, the vert, like how much ascent, descent, what does the trail look like? What are the conditions of the trail. And then the other thing is you're on a trail, so you're probably going to stop a little bit more here and there, you know, take it in, enjoy the run. There's a few other things too, like go with a friend, you know, just because it is a little bit easier to get lost on a trail. It's a little bit more fun if you have somebody else with you. Um, prepare yourself for, you know, I, I always joke like if, if there's a way to get lost, I'll find it. So I take a little extra fuel with me just in case I find myself off course at some point in time. It, it happens. But I think the main thing is just enjoy it. And that, that's really where the time on feet and just the walk and walk as much as you need to. I think that kind of goes hand in hand with the pace. And I would say that for a road runner as well. But, you know, people coming onto a trail, especially if they're not used to any hills at all, and trails are never totally flat. So, um, you're gonna have some variation, but it's, it is really good for you. And I, I didn't do a lot of trail running You know, I've been running for 30 years and I didn't do hardly any trail running in the beginning of my running. You know, I think there were various reasons, just they were not as accessible to me. And I, you know, a 20-something-year-old female running alone on a trail, not the best idea. And so it's harder for me. It's one of those things that I do find myself having to take on a beginner's mindset, kind of going back to what we talked about and just get out there and do it and improve and you, and just enjoy it. 'Cause it's so lovely to be out on a nice trail and, Yeah, it's just gorgeous and I like it. I don't, I don't love racing on trails personally. I just like, I find myself as like I'm not in that race mode when I'm on a trail, but I'm really in that enjoyment mode. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree with that. But where I come from, we don't have near as many trails. As a matter of fact, we have races where they have to close down a motorcycle trail for people to run on and run a race on. So it's not as prevalent in my area. But the thing I agree with you on is you need to have that, just take it easy. You don't need to be pushing yourself like you would from the road. So when you go from a road to a trail, relax, enjoy the nature that you're in, enjoy your surroundings, take it in, because it's going to be something totally different than what you've ever experienced. I remember coming upon a little baby doe on one of my first trail runs, laying there right on the trail. I was like, whoa, where's the baby doe? Yeah, a little deer. Oh, yeah. Just sitting there. And this thing wasn't that old. And I thought, oh no, you know, I was afraid, you know, okay, is this one going to be okay? And I knew not to touch, you know, because you touch it, the mother won't come back to it, you know. And I actually did an out and back. So when I came back, I'm like, oh, am I going to see a dead deer? And it was gone. It had gotten up and moved off and everything's fine. I saw it 3 weeks later. It was running around the area. So, you know, enjoy nature, enjoy that time, and also maybe be ready to take a trip or two. As in a little bit of a tumble.

That is part of it sometimes.

But it's all in all, and I think it's so much easier on your joints to give yourself that break from a road to moving to a trail. It's so much easier and so much more pleasant. I tend to get a more sense of calm on the trails.

And it's a softer surface, but I don't think that's the only thing, right? It's because you're on uneven, you're working muscles differently, you're slowing down more, you're going up, you're going down. It's not just the soft surface that makes it easier on your joints. But I think it's just all these things in combination. Yeah, that is. Yeah. Awesome.

So it's such a variety. And I think that's where when I'm running on the trail, I often notice I'm more present. You have to be aware of your surroundings. You have to be aware of where you put your feet and whatnot.

And you're the visitor. Like, I see the deer running around out there and they're probably thinking, who the heck are you guys out here? You know? Running around, but, you know, that's their home. So, you know, you're out there visiting and, and yeah, I just respect the land.

Yeah. And I think that helps when you can be respectful of their surroundings as opposed to you thinking, well, this is my area. No, it's theirs. If you're respectful of that, that puts you in a different mindset as well.

I was greatly reminded of that when this week, earlier this week, I was in Colorado with Kilian Jornet at a 14er, like one of the tallest peaks in Colorado. And we were recording a podcast at high altitude. While he was doing his adventure out there and a lightning storm rolled in. And this was once again one of those like you, you're very small in that moment when you're out in big nature on a, on a, on a large mountain. But one question that I was going over with Kilian at one point was about advice for other runners wanting to kind of get out of their comfort zone when they're doing an adventure or when they want to explore the trails or anything like that. You did speak about safety as one of the first things. It's good to put yourself towards your outer side of your comfort zone, but be aware that even if things go wrong, that you're still able to recover from that, that you not push yourself so far and put yourself so far out there that if something goes wrong, because something always goes wrong and just anticipating that some things are going to go wrong and you're still able to get back safely, I think that was a good reminder. The other thing that he said was, better be slow than sorry. So instead of rushing, rushing, rushing, just take your time for it and just enjoy it. And better be slow than sorry. That's like when there's lightning coming up, make sure that you move to safety if you can, or make sure you hide versus trying to rush through it and being out in the open.

Yeah. I mean, again, I said earlier, I get lost easily. I know that I do my best, but I say I'm on a trail and somehow I don't see that the real trail goes this way and I start going this way. But I do carry, I carry a pack less for the water. I mean, I carry water too, but like I carry it for like, I might need a jacket, I might need a hat. If you go up in elevation, like you said, the weather can change really fast for a little, maybe a Band-Aid, maybe some other little first aid stuff, salt tabs. Like obviously you don't wanna weigh yourself down to the point where it's uncomfortable, but it is really good to think through what you might need. And as you know, the weather at 14,000 feet is very different than the weather at like 6,000 feet by, you know, many degrees and just different conditions. And so you could feel really good here, but then once you get above tree line, things change really quick. So it's really important to be prepared as best you can. And fortunately, a lot of races are now requiring people to to go into races with waterproof jackets and with enough water because things can happen and then they just don't have the ability to promise everybody's safety. So they want people to be as prepared for it as they can.

Let's switch topics over here for a little bit. Both of you guys have recently done different lab tests for determining your training zones. Like you did a VO2 max test. You did a VO2 max and a lactate threshold test.

Just a lactate threshold.

Or you did a lactate threshold test. Stuff. Tell me a bit more about your experience. Tell me about some of your learnings and how you're adjusting that in your training.

Yeah, I mean, so I did a VO2 max test and I did it because I wanted to sort of see what my training zones were, at least with that metric. I had wanted to do a lactate test and just wasn't able to get one done in that timeframe. So I said, okay, I'll do the VO2 max test. I felt like I had could figure out there'd be enough I could learn from that to sort of play around with it. I was probably when they gave me my, and I'm just from not looking at it right now, but when I, they gave me my like zone 2, it was pretty much in line with what I had been training at in zone 2. And in fact, I even showed the lady who gave me the test and she was pretty shocked like that I had already sort of been in that range. But the interesting thing I found about my VO2 max test Oh, and so the other thing was— but the other thing with my VO2 max test is the max heart rate they measured for me was considerably lower than I had measured in the past. And, you know, I think there's interesting things about that because you do a test on a treadmill. I don't really run on a treadmill very often. You have to sort of decide when the test is over, which is very different for me than running in a race where I know I'm suffering, but the race has another couple of miles to go, so I'm going to hang in there and suffer. And in a VO2 max test, You basically, at least the way this one was administered, I was told when you have a minute left in you, raise your hand and then the test is over in a minute. Well, I don't know that I really understood what that was in my head. I was going, this is hard. I put my hand up and then I had a minute to go. So I ended the test and it was interesting to me to see that my maximum heart rate did not get as high. Now, does that mean that my VO2 score would have been higher? Not necessarily. I still could have achieved the same VO2 score. But it does make me question, did I pull the plug a little early just because in the mindset of being in a treadmill versus what I'm used to? So anyway, I'm not so— I really wasn't paying too much attention to that end of the data because I kind of already knew what my max heart rate was. But what I found interesting is they gave me like sort of my first threshold considerably lower than I had been training. So my fat max—

So give me some examples here. What was your even initial max heart rate that you thought and where did you come in at the test?

And even here with these So I've measured my max heart rate somewhere between like 180 and 185, like either in a workout or in a race, like multiple times over the last year, let's say.

Okay, and what is your age? Just to put it in perspective.

I'm almost 50.

Okay.

Yeah, so it's a little bit higher than a 50-year-old by like the 220 minus age, right? So my max heart rate, and I know, you know, the watches obviously aren't perfect, but, you know, consistently I've seen it at, and also I'm not like And also, by the way, the day after I did the test, or not the day after, the week after I did the test, I measured it again at 180 plus. So anyway, so I'm sure that it was pulled too early. I have no doubt in my mind, and I don't know what I need to do to make that different.

But what did it say in the test?

Test was 169. So significantly like lower than the way I had been measuring it. The other thing also that was kind of interesting, and again, I don't know if this had an impact, But I normally wear glasses. I normally don't run on a treadmill and I could not actually, and I wasn't wearing glasses for the test, so I could not really see the numbers on the screen in front of me. So even I didn't have a gauge. I think if I had seen the number on the screen at like 168, I would've thought, oh, I know I can comfortably run higher than that for quite a bit longer. I didn't though. I couldn't, I couldn't really read the numbers on the screen. So anyway, but the, the other part was it measured my sort of like maximum fat burning number at 127, which was considerably lower than I actually would consider easy. I mean, like, and the zone 2 had me all the way up to like 145, which is where I kind of thought my zone 2 was. But I said, okay, well, if really that's what this thing is telling me, and again, I didn't do lactate, so I don't have what that what that lactate number would be. But I just took it and I said, okay, this was the end of June. Let me just see how much time I can do in that sort of like 10 beats below 127. So I kind of set something up on my, I use Runalyze to do a lot of my tracking. I basically just set up this what I call zone 1A. And I just said, okay, I'm just going to try to run a lot in this range. And then this tool basically can measure that amount over a week or a month or whatever.

So that was the zone 117 to 127.

Yeah, I think my zone 1A, I officially made it like 120 to 127 just for the purpose of making it easier. But yeah, and then the really, cuz the other thing said like my zone 1 really went up to like 133 or 134 or something like that. And then between 134 and 145 was supposedly zone 2. But anyway, since this test, I've been really focused on, all right, I'm gonna do I'm gonna take my easy running and I'm gonna move it back slower into this zone 1A, maybe a little bit into zone 1, you know, the higher end of zone 1, but definitely well in the low to mid end of zone 1. I did still do some tempo work. I did some track, you know, some what I call track workouts. I don't actually go to a track. I just do them in my neighborhood and intervals. And it's been interesting because I, I feel like I haven't lost any fitness at all training my lower end at the low end. I, I, I'm really not actually even doing super high volume or anything right now. I'm averaging like 100 miles a month, so it's nothing huge. But I really feel like I lost, I don't, I'm feeling I lost much by going down in, in those numbers cuz my, my, uh, speed work, I've still been able to do that at the paces I was doing before. I do, however, would like to repeat the test, um, when I can do lactate. Mm-hmm. Because I am very curious how that, because I do feel really comfortable running much, much higher than 127, like 30 counts higher than 127, to be honest with you. And although I know that just because I feel comfortable doesn't mean that's the place I should be training.

What about like your nasal breathing crossover or your talk test when you're doing that? Where do you feel that comes in?

It's a lot higher than that.

Yeah.

And, but that doesn't, you know, but that doesn't mean that that's where I should be training in my mind because I do feel like I'm able to best like build my mitochondria and really build my aerobic engine in a lower range, what's the downside, right? Like I'm putting less stress on my body to just get the time on feet and enjoy it. And it also just kind of made my runs like super relaxed all summer because all the sort of regular running days I do are just so easy. Yeah. That it's just been like, oh, okay, I can get out in any weather. Anything is fine. I can run anywhere because it's like you're, there's no pressure. But yeah, it's interesting to I have gone through that and learned what it says. And then, you know, again, I, I would like to repeat the test, but I do want to see if what the lactate number tells me, because I think that might tell me— it might either validate the test I had before, or it might tell me something different, or it might— I, I don't know. I find, I find all these things just interesting because it's just an experiment on yourself, and you can see how things change over time and gives you an idea on where you are.

Yeah.

And personality personalizes it for you.

Yeah. And I know that like I spent a long time before I met you training too hard. I know that I did that. I got hurt all the time. I mean, there were a lot of things going on. And so I know a lot of people struggle to run in zone 1. I know a lot of people struggle to run in zone 2. And the idea of running in zone 1 just seems so incredibly foreign that they wouldn't even be interested. But I actually enjoy it now and I find it fun and relaxing and I don't think that it hurts me when it's time to run fast. And it just, you know, the older I get, the more I value just being able to be out there.

So. What paces are you running if you run in zone 1 or if you run in zone 2?

I would say if I'm running in zone 1, I'm walking and running and probably, I would say averaging in the 12s or 13 minutes mile. A little bit hard to say because like my, the way I do all my runs, I always walk at the beginning and at the end of the run. So the average pace is like this aggregate of all this. But I would say, yeah, roughly zone 1 in Colorado, I'm in like around the 12s, 12s, maybe 13s, depending on the day. 'Cause you know, like how you feel each day has an impact. And then I haven't run in zone 2 for a while, but I was probably in the 11s when I was in zone 2 before. I doubt I need to be training much faster than that, just given where I'm at with racing and such, just for like an easy workout. But, but yeah, I'm always just curious to, you know, get the most out of what I'm, what I'm doing. And I, I've also found that just adding all this extra walking in Yes, it means I'm running less because it's part of my overall sort of number. I don't think that's harming me either. And I've just been feeling like doing more walking is so helpful to you.

So what, what about the speed work? Like when you do speed work, what pace or intensity or heart rate are you doing?

Oh, I'm around like 8. I'm trying to go by like the GAP, you know, the, the GAP pace. I'm probably around like 8:30 or so. A mile in speed work. I don't know. Usually it's like 3 or 4 minutes at a time in zone 4.

There you go. And what heart rate does that go up to?

Like high 160s is kind of where I'm at with that. Yeah.

It's so interesting to me how— and we'll talk through your test in a minute here, but some of the things that you're talking about is you're doing a VO2 max test, you're running on a treadmill, which you normally don't do. You have to take your glasses off because it will probably start fogging up with the mask.

Oh, that was too— oh gosh, the mask. That's not fun.

So you're running, you're running, you're running with a mask on, which is like a whole nother experience to even breathe through that. It feels kind of suffocating for some people. And so I think the whole part of apples to apples, is it truly? And even here, like you feel like you tapped out at 169. Like even for myself, I did one of my first lab tests I had to like push it to the hardest. Like there it was like a lactate threshold test, a blood lactate test. They test, they poke your fingers every 5 minutes, they take the blood sample, and then they make it a little bit faster and you run again for 5 minutes and they repeat it until you basically tap out. And the first time I tapped out, my lactate levels were around 9 and it became very uncomfortable. And I was like, this is the hardest I can go. I did it again, I think 12 or 18 months later, and my lactate levels went up to, I believe, 14.8. And so I felt like I knew there was more space for me to be able to push it. I knew I tapped out too early previously. And sure enough, like I was able to like, yeah, some of the zones had shifted as well. But that's one of the other things too, like your max heart rate does change over time too. It's not just you getting older. But even sometimes when you're training in certain zones and you do a lot of low-intensity training, sometimes you might start seeing some things happen with the max heart rate. Sometimes your max heart rate coming down significantly could even be a sign of overtraining for some athletes. Even this is an interesting one. I didn't realize this part until much later was for overtrained athletes. Yes, sometimes you see your resting heart rate go up, up, but sometimes you see it come down a lot too. A very low resting heart rate is not always a good sign. Sometimes it can be too low and there's that part.

I think any time you're seeing big changes in other metrics in your body, you should pay attention. It might be nothing, but it might be something, you know? And I have found that— so since I, by the way, since I took this test and since I've sort of adjusted and, you know, I just for perspective, and I should probably go back and give the exact numbers, but in my head I'm remembering I was doing roughly like 2, I think 2 to 4 hours a month, maybe 4 was a big month, but roughly probably like 2 hours a month in what I was calling zone 1A before I took this test, right? And then like in the month of July, I think I did 9 hours in zone 1A. So I was like, I'm gonna make a big jump I wasn't doing more running, I was just like sort of took the time I was doing zone 2 and more moved it to the lower zone. And I did feel over that period of time, like my resting heart rate was down a little bit more than it had been before. I was sleeping better, I felt good. And so again, it's kind of like, what's the downside here? I'm really not finding myself slowing down. So even if these numbers are wrong, and maybe they aren't wrong, but I'm feeling better, I'm sleeping well, I feel good, like I'm running. I just, when I need to do my workout, I can still run faster. And so, you know, it was interesting to sort of play around with, and I, and I found that like the paces I was running in the 1:20s, I was running in the 1:30s before. And so I have seen a little bit of a, a shift. Now it is kind of at that pace though for me where I end up running and walking and running and walking, which is fine. But it'd be kind of interesting to see like if there's a difference in like if I was running straight in like 10 or 11-minute pace, which is probably where I'm more comfortable just running straight up. But yeah, it's just always fun to keep experimenting and learning.

So yeah, I think the one thing that will be interesting to just think through is overall training load for an athlete per week that can come from the amount of training you're doing, like training volume and training intensity. And so if we're bringing the training intensity down, to get the same amount of training load. It's sometimes the training volume comes into place over there as well.

Well, and I haven't actually— my intensity has— I've kept roughly the same because I probably have done a little more speed work than I was doing because you're able to now. Because I'm more— well, and also I kind of worked it into my schedule because I use that. I use like, you know, Strava has sort of that graph where they tell you, you know, to kind of stay in this zone. And I haven't like like deviated way down or way up. I'm kind of still in that mix, but I feel like I'm just doing more top end and more bottom end. And it's just been, yeah, that's, so I'm just kind of mixing it up. And also for me, I also, we know what you're saying, like the mask, 'cause I totally forgot about the mask. That was awful. I hated running with that mask. And I feel like for me, and I, there's so much to the whole like central governor concept of running and the brain and everything. And I, like the best place for me to, I realize this probably isn't possible, but like the best place for me to do a VO2 test or a lactate test would be actually in a 5K where I could see people ahead of me because I would feel like if I had anything left, I would use it there and it would be just so much easier. And I've always found that like, that's one reason I like short races because you can be, You can have fun, you can get out there, you can run, you can chase people. It's kind of like you're a kid, right? You're chasing the guy ahead of you. You can't do that on a treadmill in a mask. It's just not the same.

No, it is not. And a true getting to your true max heart rate, it's hard, it's challenging, it's not comfortable. I showed my daughter a video of me getting to my true max heart rate, and at that point you're gasping for air. And it is— you can only be in that for a very short period of time. This morning I watched a video of Eric Floberg finishing the end of his half marathon personal best. And yes, it's at the end of a half marathon and you're probably not at max heart rate at that point, but just seeing him giving it his all, that's, that's— yeah, I think a lot of people think that they get to the max heart rate and probably it's 5 or 10 beats higher. So I think that's another interesting one. The, the volume thing I've noticed, if I'm running 5 hours a week, I can get away with much more like top end of zone 2 and speed work. I can get away with it if I'm running 8 hours or 10 hours a week. At that point, I have to do much more of my easy running into zone 1 and like much lower than the zone 2, purely in order to have enough energy left to do the high intensity sessions hard enough.

So it makes a lot of sense because you need to recover from all that volume. And if you don't do it at the lower level, you're not going to recover at all.

I haven't had that challenge. Yeah, I've been doing a lot of zone 1 and I don't do a ton of running, right? Relatively speaking. I mean, some people would say I do a lot of running, but I would say 4 or 5 hours a week is not a ton of running.

Right.

I was ready for every track workout. And that's one thing I actually really enjoy about training so easy on the easy days. Is I'm always excited for the harder days. Like, I don't see them as harder days. I just see them as like, oh, I guess today I get to do— like, if I'm doing, you know, 3 or 6 times 3-minute intervals, I'm like, oh, I, I have 18 minutes of fast today. That's all I look at. I just like, it's 18 minutes of fast, you know, in, in different chunks. But you're excited for it. You're like, yeah, you know, horse coming out of the barn, like, ready to go.

Yeah.

And, um, I've always found that fun. And I'm, you know, I definitely am to the point where I'm like dreading the track workouts. And I think some people do really are afraid to do track workouts or any kind of speed workouts because they're dreading them. And again, I think some of that is maybe they just are getting out of their comfort zone, but maybe they're just doing their other running a little bit too hard where they're not really— they aren't ready for the track workout because they're not recovering enough during that other time.

So Coach Galt, tell me more about your experience with your recent lap test.

This was something that I wanted to do for quite a while, but living where I live, the closest lactate test that I could get a hold of was 3 hours away. So coming to California and having the opportunity to do that, I had to take advantage of it. And I have to say, it was eye-opening. It confirmed a few things that I thought might be going on but wasn't sure, but then gave me insights into things that kind of make sense now that beforehand, you know, I was just wondering about. It was very Very easy to do on a treadmill. You start out walking to warm up, get your warm-up going, you take a base level, and it's just a simple finger prick, and it's right there on the side of the finger. I know there are others that will do it in the ear, just wherever you can get the— a good sample from, and then being able to measure that with lactate meter. But once you get going, every 3 to 5 minutes you're speeding up and you're taking a sample after that. And once, I think we had about 7 samples at the time, and then it was an all-out effort to go.

How was the all-out effort towards the end for you?

So he said, if you can do a minute, that's a minimum. 2 minutes is great. Our goal is 4 minutes. I thought, okay, I'm going to go for the 4 minutes. And, at 2 minutes, I felt my legs could not handle the treadmill anymore. I feel like I could go further, but my legs just couldn't turn over anymore. And, I was just like, "I'm going to fall off this thing in 2 seconds." So, I cut it at 2 minutes. So, it was definitely an all-out and it was definitely—

Did it take the blood while you're running?

You actually hop off the treadmill. So, you're running and then— I'm trying to picture this. —And then you hop off the treadmill, you sit to the side, they take your blood, and then speed it up the treadmill, and then you have to hop back on and get going again. And really, and to be quite honest, especially the way I understood a lactate test to be taken is, you know, they prick you on the top of the finger. Well, this was done at the side, and it's so much less painful. It was so much better. And there's certain techniques that you learn to actually take a proper sample, and that's, you know, important for for your numbers, and that was interesting.

So, what was the result like and what were some of your learnings?

So, right now, I train with my MAF number. I just turned 55. So, I'm actually— I do +5 on mine, so I'm training at 130 is where I was training. And, it was really interesting, my LT1, number, I believe, was 147.

And then—

LT1, for those listening, is lactate threshold 1, or your top of your zone 2. So what we would consider maximum aerobic function being 130, and in my case, the actual test said, no, it's 147. So 17 beats above where I was training.

And so, that's different than mine because my LT1, again, I didn't do lactate, just VO2 is different. Right. They had my LT1 at 127. Right. Which was like in the middle of my zone 1.

Mm-hmm.

So that's where it's interesting.

So with, with Scott's test, you end up poking, you end up seeing what is happening with the blood lactate levels. The L1, or like the first threshold would be at a 2.0 millimole. Correct. The second threshold would be at a 4.0 millimole. Yeah. And so, that was 17 beats different. Yeah.

And so, the LT1, from where I train from my math level where I thought was the top end of my zone 2 was actually 17 beats lower and it's actually in zone 1 according to this test. So, where I was training, what I thought was zone 2 was actually zone 1.

But, it's probably important. I know I'm an advocate for zone 1 here, because I love zone 1, but you've been improving so much with your running and—

You know, it's funny that you say that. It's funny you say that because I actually started hitting a plateau. But you've done so well. Yeah, and I would not disregard that whatsoever. And I'm not saying that there wasn't a time and place for that for me personally. And I think that's where it comes down to. You can do all these tests, but it's the personal data. It's how your body reacts. To this different stimulus that's being presented. And for such a time, I did. I did do a lot better and I improved greatly. You can look at my marathon numbers, how much they've improved. But here within the last 4 months, I felt a significant shift in not getting better, plateauing to a point, maybe even dropping down a little bit. And I thought, well, maybe I need to drop down further. You know, and I was watching your progress, and I thought, well, maybe that's something that I need to do. So I was dropping back down to 125, and that seemed to make it worse. Interesting. Yeah, and I thought that too. I thought, what's going on? And so every once in a while, I would take a run, and I would jump up into the low 140s. So my new— I guess you're in the right number. My new LT1 is 147. I was jumping in the 140s. I'm like, God, this feels so So much better. It feels relaxed. It feels easy. It feels natural, you know. And that was interesting to have this kind of prove, you know what, this really is where you need to be now. Now, what's even more interesting is when you take a normal lactate curve, you start very low, you hit your LT1, your lactate threshold 1, and then you bell up like that and you kind of go, extend up to your LT2 and even beyond. Mine went this direction, hit LT1, went up like this, and then went that way. So it wasn't this nice little smooth curve. It was more of a jagged working up that way, which showed that I had actually done too much in zone 1 at this time. But it does show that you developed your zone 1.

Whereas I'm not sure I have a very developed. Right.

So my zone 1 is very developed, my higher-end zone 2, and my anaerobic levels were not nearly developed as what I thought they would. You know, and here in the last— well, especially the last 2 marathons, I've been running an average at 7:32 pace in the last 2 marathons. And we looked at my lactate numbers, and he goes, how do you run at 130, you're way up here, you know, almost hitting at 4, uh, at that point. And just, you know, back to what you said earlier, you know, if I'm in a race and I'm racing, my mind just goes there. I'm going that direction. So I'm like, just go, you know, you just go and enjoy. So that gives me an opportunity now before my next marathon, I have enough time to start training that it's a different way to maybe train at that 147 level. And what my hope is, is that eventually— and train a little bit more anaerobically, just a touch more— and bring those numbers down a little bit lower so it doesn't— so it's more of a gradual curve coming up.

You touched earlier on intuition, and you mentioned in the early— in the low 140s, it feels more natural for you to run. It feels more— and this is once again Following your own— like, there's all this data, all this input that we can get. Yet how do we feel on the day today? Some days we're well rested, some days we're more tired. And literally a question came up over coffee earlier with one of the members who said, all right, I'm coming back from this injury. Should I follow this training schedule like this? And it's like, you can use it as a basic foundation. However, in particular when you're coming back from an injury, don't just jump straight back into your old training schedule, but take it more on the day-to-day too. That might mean like for the first several weeks, you're not doing any of the speed work and you're going on the day-to-day, how things are feeling, go a little bit longer when it feels all right, but really back off when it doesn't. Yep. And I think even with the running intensity, sometimes your running form just feels more comfortable too at that heart rate of whatever that might be for you.

Yeah. I had my first run this morning at, you know, I held around that 147 and I play a little bit down below, then I got lost on the path and so I had to get into the 150s to get back to the hotel in time. But, um, and that actually was something that we discussed is, uh, holding around 147 but always having this play in the 150s to start developing that area a lot more. That way I can, you know, improve that area of my lactate.

Yeah. And I told somebody this today too, you know, because I often joke a lot of people do their training what I call no man's land, which is kind of like that not fast enough to improve, not slow enough to recover. But, but I don't— I also told somebody today, like, I don't want to sound like there's a bad place to run because really there's a place for all zones. The problem is when you're doing 80% of your running in that that no man's land zone.

You bring up a good point of that because we can talk about all these numbers. We can talk about all these different tests that we do and things that are available to us. But at the end of the day, if you're not having fun with it, then what's the point of it? None of us are these professional athletes that are getting paid to do all this. We are not striving for Olympic goals. We are here to have fun, and if we're not having fun, then what's the use of it?

Yeah, but it's good to have you. I mean, I think it is good to spend time in all the zones because you don't get from zone 1 to zone 4 by skipping over to it. Oh yeah, yeah, that's true. You still have to go through those other ones.

Yeah, I think the body will naturally do that as you're going along.

So once again, just zooming out and kind of concluding this topic on both of the tests that you guys have done here, it's yes, when people are first starting out with, let's say, wanting to experiment with low heart rate training or with just heart rate training, different zones, Yes, you can do nasal breathing to guide you to like an easy, comfortable zone. You can use a talk test. You can use 180 minus your age, like the math formula. You can use the 220. Like there's, there's a variety of different ways that we can come to a ballpark number, which basically just means try to get out of like running too much in that no man's land or trying to run the 80% into like a bit too hard but not hard enough kind of zone. Yet at some point getting some additional data once you really want to get into consistency and you feel like something might not be clicking because for the first few years when I did low heart rate training, I didn't even do like a lactate test because it felt like I was improving on a month to month. My heart rate stayed the same, but my paces were getting faster. So when I would do an actual MEF test, I was getting faster at the same heart rate. So things were working. However, if at some point you start noticing plateaus or you start to feel something isn't right, then at that point a test could be eye-opening, but also taking it with a grain of salt and using your own interpretation like you're saying.

And it's one day, it's one data point on one day because what if I had taken the test another week? I mean, who knows? It might have been slightly different. So that's why I don't get too married to 127 versus 126 or 128 or 131. You know, But I, you know, I do think that there's like a lot of, if you look at your running as like a pyramid of, you know, you, you have a base and it goes to the tippy top. There's a lot of houses built on shaky foundation, I think, in running. And that's, that leads to other problems, sickness, injury, all kinds of other things. And so I don't think you can hurt yourself by backing off. And then maybe you get to a point where like, and look at, and now it's funny 'cause to look back and think you were you're really building that foundation and you got really, really good at it. And then, yeah, at some point, maybe they need to take a step up or two, but it's supposed to be— I mean, it's common to feel like you have to slow down a lot at the beginning. And people that find that eye-opening, I think, just should understand that is really normal. It is really normal. Most people don't come into this and right away, oh, no, you're not going fast enough. You need to bump up your numbers. Most people unfortunately did not build that foundation. And so getting back to that foundation building is so critical. And then yeah, find the joy in the other levels.

And the other thing is being consistent with it. You know, once you choose where your foundation, where you're going to work at, then be consistent with it and stay consistent. And as long as you're improving, stay with that. Then once you see that you're not improving a little bit, then maybe it's time to take that next step. Next step.

Talk to me about your sweat test.

You did a sweat test this week too. Oh, that was interesting.

This was very eye-opening, some of the results that came out of this.

So is this the same time as a VO2 test?

So I did, I did, I did a, I did two sweat tests. I did a sweat test during the lactate threshold test, and then I did a separate sweat test, uh, that was just a couple of electrodes placed on your arm, and then they put another pad here, and those electrodes actually— it was so funny because my arm's nice and dry here, and they put those electrodes on, and from here all the way down, my arm was completely wet. Just completely. All the hairs were wet and everything, and I'm like, oh, okay, it worked. But then they take the data from that sweat to see how much sodium you're leaking out, and I come to find out that I was, uh, my volume per hour was 1,600 milligrams, uh, per hour, which is quite a bit more than what I thought it was. And it's— I'm definitely a heavy sweater, and we, we learned that also. And a salty sweater. And a salty sweater.

Yeah, very combination of the two, because some people, they are salty sweaters but they're not a heavy sweater. So it's a combination of the two. Yes.

Yeah. And, and I lost a lot, uh, I can't remember exactly because they had the numbers down for the salt and I can't remember exactly what it was. I remember that it was at 1,600 milligrams. It's like, okay, that's a lot more than what I've been trying to recover from.

So where did you do the test? Um, how can people, if anyone is listening and want to do a sweat test like this?

So I arranged the sweat test through Precision Nutrition Hydration and They actually came to my hotel and performed. They do it on site and it lasts about 40 minutes, I think, at the most.

Like on the treadmill at the hotel?

No, no, no, no. I was— no, no, you literally sit in your room. Oh, you just sit. They hook these two electrodes up and you have a conversation and there's nothing else involved. It's very easy. It's very simple. It was the easiest thing I did that day. So, and go through that, go through Precision Nutrition Hydration, and they hooked us up with one of their sweat testing persons that came out, had all the equipment there, hooked it up. We had there and sat there, chatted quite a bit, and had a good conversation, and then had the results right then and there.

I think they have more than 100 different machines over here in the US. And it's all set up with different people. I think in Europe they have them too. Sometimes they're set up at different races, but this is eye-opening. At the other hand, you're a heavy salty sweater. I'm not very much of a sweater and I'm light on the sweat side, meaning on the salty side.

Now, if I had to guess, I've never done this. I'm a no-granite. I live in a very dry climate, but I have lived in humid climates. Probably a salty sweater, but I would not think I'm a heavy sweater. I am always craving salt. So I think maybe that— I don't know if that's right.

It's funny because you compare yourself to other people that you see and you don't think, well, okay, I'm not that bad, or I'm not that bad. And I remember Gareth, when we were doing the lactate test, said, yep, you're sweating. The whole floor is covered. Sorry. So, you know, and I didn't think that I was as high as what I was. So it became very clear and apparent that, okay, I need to change my nutrition for the races and I need to change my nutrition as far as intake of electrolytes and salt to be able to match what I'm—

I'd be shocked if they told me I wasn't a salty sweater because I love salt so much.

Well, here's the thing. I know of one member in our PB program who went through marathons, half marathons he was racing, and always at the end of the half marathons he was feeling sick and he was feeling unwell. Ended up going to a lab test to get salty or like the sweat, sweat test. He found out he should have been taking in 4 times more electrolytes. He was a very heavy, salty sweater. Started taking in just before the race, during the race, after the race, enough electrolytes. Sure enough, it changed the entire race day experience where all of a sudden felt good throughout the race, felt energized till the end, felt well like the next day. And so I think just the electrolyte part and like the amount of water you take in with that as well. That being said, you can overdo it on the salt front as well. Even if you look at David Roach, like some of the comments that he made about a few of the races that didn't go according to plan, sometimes he had brought up that he felt like he was taking in too many electrolytes. Right. And so having to dilute it down with some water. So it is this balance game following your own intuition, but then sometimes having some additional data. If you're really going out there, you're doing consistent racing, especially longer endurance races, it can be eye-opening.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what I'm excited about for this, for the remainder of this marathon block for me is I have all this new data that I can take out there and play with, tweak with it and see how that presents itself. And I have, I have an end goal. I have something that I'm going to be able to put all this testing to and see, okay, you know, let's see how it goes.

Well, and also see how you feel. Yeah. Yeah. Things up.

Right. You know, I want to talk about one topic and that is something that applies to my own world, but I know it comes into your guys' world quite often too, is about the topic of things you do outside of running that are very important but that are harder to do on a consistent basis, meaning strength training, mobility, going to bed in time, eating clean. There's a variety of different things that will indirectly impact your running performance, your ability to handle upcoming injuries and whatnot. Very often we see runners get consistent with mobility or strength for one week week or 2 weeks, and I'm even looking at myself over here. But it often gets triggered by, hey, I'm starting to get a niggle, I should be working on this, versus going consistently out there and putting in the work. And even when you don't have anything going on, knowing it's an important part. What are some strategies for anyone listening who might recognize what I just said is like, "Yeah, it sounds all good and well to do X amount of times these other things per week, but I just don't do it." Do you have any advice for people listening like that?

You know what was interesting is this kind of came up with during our group run today. I was talking with someone and they were debating on riding their bike versus strength training and just not having the bandwidth or the stamina to do both. And what do I give up? Where do I go? And they were doing 3 days a week strength training and then trying to ride the bike. That day they were riding the bike, it was hard for them to do the strength training. I'm like, you know what, 2 is good, but you have to remember something. Bodyweight exercises is strength training, and you don't have to go anywhere to do that. You know, simple single leg work, simple push-ups, you know, if you got a place to do a pull-up, Just something that takes away that barrier of I need to go somewhere to do it is the first thing. Make it very easily accessible and then make it something that doesn't have to take that long. You know, the most that you need really, I mean, even scientifically in a HIIT class is 15 minutes. You know, if you got 15 minutes where you can bang out 30 seconds and rest for— or bang out a minute, rest for about 3 you're going to be good for that amount of time. So making it a lot easier on yourself, that you're not putting the pressure on yourself, it's— it has to be a time goal, and I have to meet this, and I have to do this, is the first step to breaking that barrier.

I think for me it's just finding something I like to do, because I think there are many ways to skin the cat, if you will, with strength training. I mean, I, I think obviously it needs to be for running. And then I think just for functioning as a human, whole body strength training is important. But ultimately, like, we could spend a lot of time arguing over what's better, this or that, or this or that. And, and they all have their pluses and minuses, but it doesn't matter how great any kind of strength training is if you don't do it. Right. So for me, I, I was not focused on strength training until a little less than a year ago, probably last fall. I actually just got into my head, like, hey, you know, not even from a running perspective, but just from a, you know, I'm getting older and it's really important that I need to focus on this just for my overall health. Like, I want to be functional and not struggling to do simple things like reaching or grabbing or picking up items. And, you know, those are the kinds of things you start to think about, just like, what if I couldn't do things I needed to do to live, right? Um, and I got I got serious, like, you need to focus on some strength training. And I just found a class that I love to go to. And it is a struggle, I will say, because I always feel like I, as much as I like the class, I feel like, oh, I'm not getting a run that day. Sometimes, you know, I always, it's always a little bit of like, oh, do I really want to go do an indoor workout when I can be outside running? But I also, like remind myself, like, there's so much value in this, even though it gives you no miles, it gives you no steps, it gives you no, like, some of these other metrics we look at. It's like, yes, it doesn't give me any miles when I go to this class. I can't add 5 miles to the day. It can't get me closer to my target for the year, but at least I found a class that I enjoy and I want to go to it. And so I go to it.

Well, you're putting deposits in the bank.

Yeah. And I tried to, like, also just look at it from, okay, Okay, what can I do this year and make another goal of like doing so many hours of strength training in the year. But like you said too, it doesn't have to be like, I found this class that I like and I go when I'm home, when it's sometimes it's hard to go obviously when I'm traveling and things like that. But I try to go twice a week. They're usually 45 minutes to an hour depending on the class. But the other thing I also really am trying to get better at is just doing those 5 minutes of mobility. Before most of my runs, okay? Not every single run, I'm not forcing myself to do it every single day, but when I'm generally, the approach I am taking now is if I'm running from my front door and I'm not driving somewhere to go run, put those 5 minutes in before you run. And then what happens is, you know, I do that probably, you know, 4 or 5 times a week if I'm good. And that's 25 more minutes every single week that I'm getting. That's almost like half another class to go to. And I think we forget sometimes how those little things add up. And I probably could get creative and find 5 minutes to do every day or twice a day. And, you know, once you do it, it's easy to— I don't ever stop in the middle of 5 minutes. Like, once I'm starting it, it's happening. But I think that's the thing where people need different things for their lifestyle. Like, some people are not going to go to a class. They don't enjoy working out with other people, whatever. It doesn't, you know, everybody has different needs. For me, I work from home. I don't see a lot of people in real life for most of the day. So it's like a kind of a break from my regular day to go, you know, have humans around me in a class.

So well said, finding what works for you. Yeah. I'm a bit of a type A Virgo, math sheets, like tracking things.

I'm a recovering type A, that's what I call myself.

So like when I have a habit tracker, it works really well for me. Me because I can literally just look at the sheet and in advance I've identified is like, okay, I want to do 3 minutes of mobility in whatever way that might be. I will do 1 minute of the awesomeizer, I'll do some flow rope, I'll do some backwards walking, whatever I might be doing. And like for me, if I just check in the box for that day, I did that and then some type of strength training, some type of— and it doesn't have to be much, but even if it is just in there, or maybe you put it 3 times a week or whatever, wherever that might be, but at least I feel a sense of accomplishment or a sense of tracking or a sense of movement. I'm not someone who is like, yeah, I love the running 100 days in a row. You need to run X amount of miles a day in order to like— I think when you put that barrier very low and like the Atomic Habits and James Clear talks about it, Rangan Chatterjee talks about it, about breaking down these tasks into very small manageable tasks. Right. And then just doing it consistently.

And I agree with you. Like, that's where I had to have like a goal for strength training for the year, because if I didn't have that, then it was just something that was taking the place of when I was running, which I had a goal for, you know.

But one of the podcast guests, Daniel Edwards, he talked about developing a morning routine for strength and mobility that takes him a total of, I think it was 16 or 19 minutes. And he said it's non-negotiable. I do it every morning and he rotates it. So it's not always the same everything. But being able to do that, he said it became as automatic as brushing his teeth. It was a non-negotiable for him to do it first thing in the morning. And he turned into a tank. Yeah, like he really became very strong over time.

16 minutes times 7 times 52. Yeah, there's a lot of time.

So there's that, right? And I think that being said, if twice a week you would dedicate 30 minutes or 45 minutes of going to a gym and make that kind of non-negotiable, whether that is you sign up for a class, you work with a trainer, you meet a friend, or you do it solo, at least having some things in the calendar does tend to work for me as well, where it's almost like part of a training plan. As much as you can be flexible with it on the day to day, at least these are already in there. Yeah, makes me think of one of the podcasts that I recorded with Trail Runner Nation, and it was Scott who said he started early on in the week already writing out his schedule of where in the week he was going to start doing his workouts. Even if it was during a work week, he would schedule time with himself in his calendar that that became a non-negotiable. And I thought that that was a pretty good way of doing it as well, because often it becomes an last minute thing that you add in there when you have time versus these are the first rocks you put in your calendar. They're non-negotiable and you can move other things around, but those are not.

That's important. Just because it doesn't take time doesn't mean it doesn't need to be scheduled in your calendar because sometimes it doesn't happen if it doesn't get scheduled in our calendar. So it is really good to schedule 10, 15 minutes. And if you can have those and whether it's morning or middle of the morning or lunchtime or whatever, I also heard a great quote that always reminds me is like, the heaviest weight in the gym is the front door. And even though you don't have to go to a gym, I mean, that's the reality is because once you get yourself through the front door, once you take the first step, once you start the lift, the first, you're probably going to actually do the work, whatever it is. But it is the hardest. It's like that just getting going and, you know, getting to the front door that I think—

yeah, I think the biggest thing is, you know, we, we talked about this several times, everyone's an experiment of N of 1. And so you need to go ahead and experiment with what's going to work best for you. And we talked several times about journaling. So write down what worked for you, what didn't work for you. Identify what didn't work. You can identify what works. Identify what didn't work. That way you don't ever do that again or try that tactic.

Well, and coming back to mindset that we talked about, I mean, you never learn anything by being successful, right? You only learned that you were successful, but you didn't actually take any actionable learning out of it. You only really learn when you fail. So when you have that kind of mindset, then, you know, and you look for ways like to identify the failures and write them down, you have something to go back on and go, okay, well, this didn't work out for me this month. Well, I wonder why. Then you go back through your journal and you look to see like, oh, there were like 2 weeks in there I didn't do what I said I was gonna do. And, you know, whether it's that or something else, but that's the stuff you really learn from.

And remember, they're not failures, they're learning opportunities.

Right. Yeah. Or just normal— like, I also just like to say normalize the word failure. It doesn't have to be negative. Like, look for that failure because that's where you find the path to doing something else.

I seriously think we can keep talking for hours and hours and hours. Probably like in like 2 or 3 months we'll have to just record another one of these. I really enjoy these. These are not even interviews. These are just compilations really. So any closing thoughts over here? Any learnings that you wish you would have known earlier or anything that stood out to you from recent coaching sessions or anything you want to share in closing?

Personally for me, I think if I had to tell myself something way back when, it would be you don't have to push yourself as hard as you think you do. When I started the running journey, I always thought, well, you have to run a little bit faster to get going. So to understand that you don't have to push as hard, that you need to find that relaxed flow state and allow that to guide you would be the first thing. And consistency. Be consistent. Don't chop it up into, I'll do a little bit this week and do a little bit that week. Be consistent. When you start out, just be consistent.

And those little wins over time will help immensely. Yeah, I think consistency is I always say I have like 2 phrases I say more than anything. One is hills are your friends, 'cause I do say that a lot. But consistency is far, far more important than intensity. And so being consistent in anything, it doesn't matter if we're talking about running, getting better at your job, like learning a new skill, saving money. Like the key is to be consistent. And that's how the people that are successful, they got there because they are consistent. And they also— I think the other thing we didn't really talk through is that progress is hardly ever, if ever, linear. So when you say like, what do I talk— I think earlier on we talked about like, what about the person who did something and then they felt like they were falling behind, right? Expect to fall behind because curves of progress go like this. They do not ever go in a straight line. But if you're directionally getting in the right way over time, that's what's most important. And so when you see that, like, oh, okay, yeah, it's one of those, it's one of those down things that happened. Like, it's the stock market, right? It goes up, it goes down, it goes up over time. But generally, like, we see little hills and valleys. You just might be in a valley. Don't think everything is falling apart and you got to abandon what you're doing because it didn't work for this one time.

You know, the other thing I'm thinking about conversations in the PBE community is to understand that there are so many factors that affect our running. You know, our personal life will affect our running, our nutrition will affect our running, our sleep habits will affect our running, so our mental stress will affect our running. So when you're looking at your running and you're seeing maybe your numbers are not improving or you're plateauing or you're going down, identifying those other areas and wondering, okay, is this going to be what's causing the issue.

We're so quick to blame the running. We are all so quick to go, oh, I must be doing something wrong with my running. My running is not getting better.

What? Yeah. And I see so many, so many different times that stress in life plays a huge factor in the running ability and running progress, hindering it. So just be mindful that it's not just about the running. You know, you have to to— you have to look at each part of your life to understand if you're going to get the benefits from the ring that you want.

And I think to also just kind of add on to that, like, we all— all these things affect us differently. So, you know, I can't compare myself to you. We live in different places, we're different ages, we have different lives, we sweat differently, we sweat different— maybe we don't, I don't know, I haven't tested mine. But, you know, and even though we, we might see people that look like us or more similar to us, we shouldn't compare ourselves to them either because we are all quite— in a lot of ways, we're all very similar, but in these little detailed kind of ways, we are very different. So just because like some speed workout was awesome for you or some nutritional formula was great for you, like, it might be great for you.

A good example is you're having so much success at your lower heart rate, and now here I am finding that I need to be boosting it up to have the same success the success that you're having, so.

But you also had all that success. I know, yeah. But I mean, I think the key is like, you don't, you can only compare yourself to yourself. Right. You know, and you can only, you will find a lot more happiness in running in anything if you celebrate your efforts and you celebrate what you contribute to your progress versus, you know, sort of like comparing how I did, you know, relative to Floris or Floris's daughter who's way faster than me in a mile, as we can tell. But that's— obviously, we got different lives, we're different people, we have different situations. And I think we just have to know that we can give our best.

Have you gone out today to be the best version of yourself that you can be? Exactly. That's where it comes down to. And if you set out with that goal, I think a lot of other things are going to fall into place at that point in time.

So well said. And I think the topic of comparison comes up quite often in some of our Zoom calls. Whether it is athletes coming back from an injury or coming back from 10 years ago. I used to run half marathons or marathons, and now I'm trying it again, and it's harder. And comparing yourself to your younger version, your version who was in shape, or someone who has never run before, who might see other people who have been doing all these races and they make it look easy, and all of these kind of things where showing up effort-wise, that one is a big one. Also, we were talking earlier about the glass ceiling and not putting limitations on yourself. Like someone earlier on a call was talking about, hey, I'm in my 60s right now and I used to run marathons well, and all of a sudden it's getting more and more challenging. Are my best years behind me? And then we talked about, do you have to compare yourself time-wise? Is time the only thing, or can you look at other factors?

Well, it's also, you know, how much of life has happened in between?

Well, that. And it's also, who do you surround yourself with because she told a friend who was her age, I just went on a run for 6 miles and a friend was, wow, oh my God. Whereas if she would go to a running group and she says that she is just one of them. And so I think sometimes surrounding yourself with like-minded people who all encourage each other, who push each other, who help thrive. Yes. Versus you being the outlier and going against the grain there. So I think the community part plays a big role in that.

And that's where we can find inspiration from other people or our past selves or whoever, right? Rather than comparing yourself to somebody else or even to yourself 20 years ago or what have you, like, you know, you can find— I can find inspiration in what you've learned from your lactate testing. Oh, well, that, you know, that could be interesting. Maybe I'll go explore that at some point, you know? And you can look at that as like what different people are able to do helps you realize, hey, maybe your ceiling's not where you thought it was, you know? Maybe it's somewhere else and that kind of keeps you going forward.

Awesome. Thank you guys so much. We'll do this again in the next few months over here. That's great. Cool. Cool. All right. All right. That's the outro. Peace. Thanks for listening. I would love to hear from you. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote? From this episode? Let me know in the comments below on YouTube. If you'd like to find out more about our Personal Best Program, our running coaching program, check out pbprogram.com. I'm really excited about running these days. Going to be running the Amsterdam Marathon in a few weeks over here. I might see some of you out there. And otherwise, I'll see you at some of the next podcasts again. All right. Have a good one. Bye now.

Mm-hmm.