#113: How to Finish Every Race Strong | Marathon Tips from My Sister's First Marathon

What if you could finish strong every time? This is my sister Janneke. 6 months ago, she was injury-prone and inconsistent. Then she changed one thing. She trained slower and she trusted the process.

In the beginning, it was going so slowly and I was like, okay, I want to make some, you know, some pace. And at the end, okay, you're right. The low heart rate training is actually pretty good. Yeah, my legs start to hurt a bit.

That's mile 20, 32k in, the point where most runners slow. But she didn't slow down, she sped up. She ran faster in the second half of the race than the first half, and not because she pushed that much harder, it was because she trained smarter. This is how she learned how to finish strong and how you can finish strong too. Before we start, I'm really excited to share that my new book Running Breakthroughs is out now, and I'm overwhelmed by the amount of responses. It's so cool to hear. It's basically a compilation of 12 years of lessons that I've learned from coaching different athletes and from interviewing a variety of different guests such as Eliud Kipchoge, Courtney Dauwalter, experts like Dr. Stephen Seiler, Phil Maffetone, and different recreational athletes as well. I've compiled all of the breakthrough lessons into one place and it can transform your running and your life. If you have ever found any value in my content, I think you'll really love this book. Inside, you'll find strategies on training, on racing, on mindset, recovery, and so much more. The same principles that have helped thousands of runners break through plateaus and reach new levels of running. The book Running Breakthroughs is available now at floresgiermann.com, and there's several different bonuses and bundle options available on this site. You can also find it on Amazon worldwide. Worldwide and a variety of different bookstores as well. For the exact links, check the links in the description below this video or podcast. We recorded a really nice audiobook in a legit studio, so the book is available as audiobook, paperback, hardcover, and ebook. Early reviews make a huge difference in the success of a book launch, so if you would like to support my work, you can pick up a copy of the book, leave a review, and join the hundreds of runners that are already using the lessons in this book to transform their running. The link is in the description. Thank you so much for the support. This episode is brought to you by PATH Projects. This is the only apparel that I wear for running, for the gym, and for everyday wear as well. It's literally all that I wear: shirts, shorts, underwear, socks, headwear, jackets, everything. PATH Projects has won the Runner's World Gear of the Year award several times, and for good reason. The comfort and quality are unmatched. While PATH focuses mostly on men's gear, our female friends also love the headwear and Pyrenees shirts too. Get yours at pathprojects.com. Hope you enjoy my conversation with my sister Janneke. Hi, Janneke. Welcome to the Ultramarathon Show. So thank you. We just ran the Amsterdam Marathon together a few days ago. How are your legs feeling? How are you doing? How's your recovery going?

The legs are good. Yeah, they are fine again.

Yeah.

So it took 2 days. 2 days were very bad, but now it's okay. I think I can run again. Good.

Good. Good. Good.

Yeah.

What made you decide to sign up for your first marathon?

Well, of course you, you were my inspiration. No, we, of course, I went with you to Tokyo. Like last year where you run your marathon. So I was cheering on the sidewalk and the whole like atmosphere and made me curious about how it was to run by myself. And beside that, my son Felix, he told me you would be a very cool mom if you would run the marathon. So then I thought that I had no choice than doing it. So I decided to sign up.

Yeah, cool points for the kids. I like that.

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

One of the things that stood out to me, so for the last 6 months you've been training, you've been putting in consistent effort, you've been out there running and really rigorous, trying to put in the runs on a daily and weekly basis. And at one point I remember some type of comment about, yeah, Floris, there's actually really something about this low heart rate training. And I was like, You're like, I've been talking about this for the last 12 years.

I know, but it was in the beginning, it was going so slowly and I was like, okay, I want to make some, you know, some pace. And you always told me, no, you have to slow down. You have to slow down. So like for the last few years, I thought, well, okay, you just go with your heart rate training. I just do it my own way. But at the end, okay. I have to review my thoughts about it, and I think you're right. The low heart rate training is actually pretty good. Yeah.

So let's talk more about it because I think for the listeners, it will be interesting to just hear what goes into someone training for their first marathon. What are some of the experiences from training, from really starting like 6 months ago to getting into the consistent habits? Because you went from pretty inconsistent running.

Yeah.

Much more consistent, much more structured to eventually getting to race day. So we'll start out with the training and then we'll dive into race day. So yeah, how did you use to train like further than 6 months away? And then how did your training change? Like what were some of the things that were different there?

Yeah, well, before I just went for a run and I did some half marathons before, And I just trained and then I extended my, the distances. Uh, but I always went as fast as I could. Uh, and of course you build up in a race, but at the end of the race, I was almost completely like very exhausted. So when I started with the low heart rate training, I first started with the, uh, base building, um, schedule. And that's like 5 times a week or something. And, and it builds up in distance. Uh, and you start running a lot of slow. Yeah. You have to start running a lot of slow runs. Uh, and in the beginning it's very annoying because you're like, you're coming home from a run and you're not even tired. And it feels very strange for me because before I was completely exhausted after a run. So, um, it didn't feel really, really satisfying. Um, but at the same time, the schedule I had, it was very comfortable because I put the schedule on my refrigerator and I looked at it every day. What should I do? And I just consistently did what the schedule told me to do. And it's very comfortable and it gives you guidance on what to do and I just didn't think too much about it. I just did it. Um, and, um, yeah, so I think I did 6 weeks of the base building and then I started the marathon schedule.

Yeah. That was like an 18-week marathon schedule. So you did 6 weeks of only low-intensity training and then you started adding in some, some speed work.

Yeah. And in, in the marathon. Schedule, there's also speed work and strength training.

And so, so one thing that I'd noticed that in the past you sometimes would get sidelined with injuries, meaning like you would have some challenges with your Achilles, with your calf.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden you started training in a much more gentle way and you were able to train more consistent. Is that right?

Yeah. That's for sure. Yeah, that was— and in the beginning I still felt my Achilles, but it didn't get worse. It just stayed there for a bit, but it was not too bad and I could just do my runs. And at a certain point it even didn't hurt anymore. So that was good. So I think your body needs to get adjusted. Needs to adjust to all the training volume that you put in. Uh, and, um, at first I also noticed that my body had to get used to, uh, run for 2, 3 days in a row because I never did that. I always kept like 1, 2 days in between the runs. At first my body felt tired and I felt some pains and aches, and then I thought, well, is this okay? And then you told me like, It's normal. And if it's not going to be too bad, then you can just run and do your thing, but your body just has to get used to it.

So, and that's also, um, it's an interesting one because it's that initial, like when you start building up training volume, even at a low intensity, sometimes your muscles can still feel sore, tired. You have some of those niggles and there's this fine line between when can you still run through that and when do you have to step back a little bit, but at least you're running at an intensity that's mostly fairly comfortable and not that much load on the body versus higher intensity.

So, yeah. So it was only like, I think, 2 or twice in these 6 months that I skipped the training and not because I didn't want to train, but because something in the body didn't feel right. And it didn't feel right at a certain level that I thought, okay, it's now, it's not good to go.

And listening.

That was only 2 or 3 times in—

for sure. And being able to make those decisions on your own, to be your own coach and to make those— yes, today it's going to work, or today I need to step back. Yeah, I think that's really good. That's ultimately where you want to get to, that you're the boss of your own body, not someone else telling you you should run or you should not run. So what advice do you have to other runners who might be listening who are dealing with some of those initial frustrations with low heart rate training or some of those initial like doubts if this is going to work?

Well, just hold on and just do it and then give it some time and trust the program. Like you always told me, like trust that this is going to build like a proper base on which you can continue. And even if it feels like you're not building up anything because it's going so slowly, just continue and, and at the end it will pay off. For sure, but, uh, don't give up too soon.

When was a moment that you felt like things were improving for you?

That was when the longer distances came in. And, um, I think also the longer distances in the beginning were on a very low heart rate. And then at a certain point I really got frustrated at the end because I really, I just wanted to go. I, I just wanted to put some speed in and then I think there's some long runs with strong finish. And, uh, when I came at the point that, um, I could do the strong finish and it also felt like a very strong finish, then I thought, okay, it's working. So you can have a long distance, very low heart rate, and then have a strong finish. And at that point I thought, okay, this is gonna work. And then sometimes I just changed the run a bit, uh, of what it was written down. So I changed it. In, um, uh, a bit of a higher, uh, pace. Uh, so I decided not to run on a, on a low heart rate, but just go. And then I noticed, okay, I can also go on a higher pace for a longer time.

So that's what I think sometimes surprises people that even when you're training mostly at a low heart rate, even your higher gear can still run faster when you have to run fast, your body will know how to do it.

Like, yes, there's something to be said about doing speed work and intentionally training for that, but And that's also what you notice with the, with the, um, more tempo runs in the training that you notice that you can do more. And, and the, the tempo work is not that much. It's only like, what is it? 20% or something.

Yeah.

If that even, um, yeah. So, but even with those runs, you, you notice that you are improving.

For me, one thing that was really cool to see is you had previously ran a few half marathons. And then you started putting in your training runs and you started running further and longer than you ever had before. Yeah, I was like, all of a sudden you did your first whatever it was, 25K, 29K, then 32K. And it was like, yeah. And even on some of those runs, it was— you're nervous for a little bit of like, what is it going to feel like? I have this much on the schedule. I don't know what it's going to be like. And then eventually you were able to do it. And like those wins of expanding your horizon was really cool to see. Talk to me a little bit more about that, how, how those runs felt.

My longest distance was 21K before I started this training. So then I think there was, um, one day that I did 23, then 25, and, uh, it was a whole new experience and I was curious all the time. Okay. How will it be if I take another 2K? Or if I add another 5K, um, so yeah, I was nervous when I started, but then during the run it went all okay. And because your, your base is so good, um, you can continue running and you can just expand your boundaries. And yeah, so it's very good for your confidence. It gives it, it really gives it a boost. By running these longer distances, and especially if you keep slow all the time and then are able to finish strong, even at a 32, 32K, that gives a very good feeling and confidence that you can fix it.

And one of the main reasons I like those long run fast finishes too is that it just builds your intensity discipline. And that is not only for training, but in particular for race day as well, which we'll, we'll talk about in a little bit over here.

Yeah.

Earlier you mentioned that previously you used to run a bit more like one day here, then a day off, and then a day here. And then now the transition happened that you're running more back-to-back days. And this is one of the first things that I noticed too, once I started getting more into running, that I thought, oh, in order to prepare for a half marathon or for a marathon or even a 10K, it's like, oh, you run twice a week and you get ready.

Yeah.

And then I started looking at some online schedules and I was like, wow, you have to run 5 times a week or 6 times a week.

Yeah.

Why that much? But it's like, yes, it seems like a lot, but if you change the approach and how you do those runs and you're still able to finish a run and feel like you could go further or you could do it the next day again, you just build up that momentum and it just makes these longer distances easier too.

Yeah. And you build up so much more than when you just do a random run here and there. And if there's not a consistency in it. So, um, yeah, it helped me a lot.

What was your, how did you get out of the door when you were not motivated sometimes? Were there any strategies? Like sometimes it was dark, it was cold sometimes.

Yeah.

Like tell me, how did you deal with those days?

I thought like, okay, I always feel better when I come back from a run. So it's always better to go out and do your run than stay on the couch. Uh, because it makes you feel better to go outside. And even if you don't feel like it because it's raining or it's cold, after 5 or 10 minutes, it's okay. You know, you're not cold anymore. And if it's raining, well, then you're used to the rain. So, um, uh, so that always kept me going outside because I knew if I would stay on the couch, I would feel guilty afterwards that I didn't do my run. Or, um, and I knew I wouldn't feel better by staying inside. So I always went and then I could also tick the box off my schedule.

So I think that part, I think that part as well, plus You had some nerves for race day of like, oh, it's such a big distance, so you better put in your training to do everything you can to prepare for it. Because I was talking with Dad on my way back to, like, coming back to LA again here a few days ago, either to Mom or Dad, and they were like, yeah, Janneke was very serious about her training. She really wanted to like not have a bad race day experience. So she wanted to do everything she could within her control to try to get ready the best way, even when you would go visit them on a weekend and there were several different things going on, the first thing you were like, okay, it's my priority to get my morning run down or to get this.

If I do something, I want to do it good. So, uh, yeah, yeah. But it also, it, it was comfortable to just follow the schedule, just do what it says and then you can do all your other things. But my priority was with my with my training schedule. Yeah.

Yep.

Absolutely. And then I also, I, so when I went to all my very, the longest run I did was like 32 and I was actually with mom and dad that weekend. So I told dad, okay, I'm gonna do this long run and, uh, can you please join me like the last 15K or something? So then he came on his bike with my drinks and the gels. And so he joined me for the last 15K.

I think that's good. You had a really good pacer right there. And so for anyone listening here, our dad Hans, he ran a marathon in New York in 1988. And so that was for me an inspiration as well, like being a kid, being 6 years old and seeing him go to New York, having all these stories and whatnot of him running there. So that inspired me. And then now it comes full circle again with him pacing you on the bike and Yeah, that's really cool to see. And so is there anything that you remember from back in the day? You did some runs when you were younger, but then you got into a few other sports. You ran, but it wasn't your main thing.

No, not at all.

And then you took quite a long of a break of running, and then you started getting back into running again. Still feel that some of those early days have set the tone? Because we did.

Yeah.

Grew up in a running family, right? Like, we would all, with mom, dad, you and I, we would all do the midwinter run. And so it started quite early there.

Yeah.

Do you feel something like that?

Yeah, mom and dad were running like every week with their running clubs. And so that was normal. But we just did it for fun, I think, once a year and sometimes with mom and dad. And then I think when we started to play tennis a bit more serious, then we had these running trainings as well to build up our fitness. I think I continued running then because I was 16 when I ran my first half marathon in Egmond. Um, and then for a very long time, I didn't do anything. I went studying and then I didn't go for a run. And I remember I was writing my thesis, and then I thought, okay, I have to do something about sports because I didn't do for years. And then I started to run my first lap of the Vondelpark. That's like 5K. And it was like a huge distance. I couldn't, I couldn't do it without stopping. Um, but then I picked it up again. So I started running more and more. And then I also went with my friends. I went to London to have to do half a marathon and Paris and, uh, Antwerp and yeah, few other trips. But I think the base for this was all, it all started at home.

I think it's interesting how when you're just getting started with running or you're getting back into running again after an injury, something like a 30-minute run or a 5K or whatever can feel forever. And then once you're in the middle of a training cycle, it just feels like a short one. It's really interesting how in different stages of training that changes.

Yeah. And for sure with this marathon schedule, then in the beginning you think like 15, oh, that's a lot. It's a huge amount of Ks. But at the end of your schedule, it's like, oh, I only have to do like 15 or 17. Oh, that's easy. I'll just do it and then I can start with the rest of my day.

Yeah. It is mind-blowing how adaptable the body is.

Absolutely.

And I do think the mind plays a big role in that too. I think the mind and also even when looking at you, I think the people you surround yourself with can make a positive impact on your running too. For example, your friend Sophie, she runs multiple marathons. You have flown out to different cities. You and I were in Chicago for the marathon there. She was running it. And so I think just feeling the energy from the race day that makes you drawn into—

Yeah.

Yeah. So even, even when you're not running but you're spectating or you're volunteering or whatever, like, can help get you excited about the sport.

Yeah, for sure. And it can make you curious about how it would be if you would run by yourself and how you would be, if you would be able to do it.

Yeah, for sure. What did you learn about nutrition in your training?

Well, that I compared to what I did before with my half marathons, I took like one gel. That was it. Because I thought they were disgusting. And now you told me, well, you should take some more because the body needs the energy. I think I, yeah, I started with it during my training to take a gel like every 30 minutes and a salt pill and electrolyte drinks. And, um, yeah, it's just. It makes it easier for you because you can decide not to do it, but the body needs, needs to be fueled. So you, you need it. So, um, you better take it because then you can take the advantage of it. So I learned to take more and to drink more because I always was afraid that, uh, I had to pee like all the way up if I drink too much. But that's not the case. You just, your body just needs it.

Yeah. What nutrition and hydration worked well for you? What were you training with? What were you racing with?

Um, well, during training I didn't take anything. If I would go for a run for an hour or then I would not take anything. Only for the longer runs I would take the gels. Uh, and I, I always was running with my running vest, so I had like 2 half a liters of water with me and then the gels for every 30 minutes. Uh, that's what I took during my training and during race day. I had you and you were carrying water and I also had some gels by myself and we had the salt pills. Um, and that worked, that worked good. Yeah.

Excellent.

I also tried during training, I tried to have these candy bars or, but it didn't work for me. Chewing and I just want to take the gel and the water and that's it. Yeah.

That's why it's so good to try those things in training so that you know what's going to work and what doesn't. And I'm the same way. Like if I have to chew things too much or if I have to, it just becomes so much of an effort where I think if you're able to take a gel or you're able to take a carb drink, it goes into the body much easier for sure.

So, yeah.

So, all right. Let's talk about Race day. We actually just posted today the video on YouTube about your marathon experience. So there's a separate YouTube video about it that I will link in the show notes too as well. But let's talk through what was your plan for race day? What was your initial— did you have a goal time? Did you have a—

Yeah, I had to sub 4 hours because dad ran his first marathon in 4 hours and 2 minutes and you ran your first marathon in 4 hours and 11 minutes, so I had to be sure to be a sub-4 runner during my first marathon. So that was also the schedule that I used, sub-4 hours. And then I think it was the day before that we talked about the race strategy. And because I trained with the low heart rate and, um, I knew exactly what my rate was if I was running very easy. And then you told me you can go in the first 2 hours, you can go up to a certain amount of heart rate and then afterwards you can go up.

Let's talk some more specifics because I do think this will be interesting for people listening. So your goal race pace, like you wanted to come in just under 4 hours, right? So typically we talk about a 2-3 minute buffer. 4 hours is a 9:09 minute mile pace. Like you think in kilometers. I forgot to think in kilometers. So What, what pace?

5. I think it was 5.41. 5:41.

Yeah. So, so there's that, that would be roughly the, if we would run that pace for 26.2 miles, 42.2K, that's what we would come in just under, under 4 hours, right?

Yeah. Then you have like 4 hours. Yeah. And so I think we had to go at 5:36 to have like a buffer of 3 minutes.

And so here's the interesting thing. The night before or the day before, like, obviously I'd already seen your training runs in the weeks and months leading up to it. But then, then the day before we sat down and we truly looked at what is your heart rate at what paces from a long run fast finish? What does that tell us about how much is the gap difference between that pace and your actual race day pace? What is happening with your heart rate? At what point does it become unsustainable? Where does it become sustainable?

Yeah.

The interesting thing is you did both of those long runs, 29K and 32K, at a relative hot temperature.

Yeah.

So that was a different factor than on race day, which we'll talk about in a bit. Yeah. Because on race day it was quite a bit cooler. And so what we had determined during those conversations was you're good to start in the mid to high 140s and then letting it go into the 150s. From a heart rate perspective, but you should really try not to get your heart rate up into the high 150s, low 160s until the later stages of the race. Because if you spend too much time there, you're probably going to have to slow down at the end where you just use too much energy early on, right?

Yeah.

And so this is where kind of that, that advice came in for race day of like, all right, there's two angles we can go here. One is to kind of figure out what does it feel like if we run that pace of like just under sub-4-hour pace. And one is like, let's have a look at when we run by heart rate and what that pace is. And let's take those two inputs. And then as a third input, how does it feel?

Yeah.

And that's kind of how we approached the beginning of it.

So yeah. And I think I remember when we were running at the Amstel, then, uh, my heart rate was quite low, but our speed was already up like a lot faster than our goal.

And what, what mile or K was that at?

I think that was at the beginning of Amsel. So that was like at 15 or something, 15K. And then I was like, oh, we're going too fast. But my heart rate said, no, you are okay. So then I sort of got confused what's leading in this. Is it my heart rate or is it the pace?

And this is where some of these— when you do training runs that are hot, sometimes your heart rate automatically goes higher at the same— at like the slower pace. And now that it was cooler, it does make a bit of a difference over there. But at the other hand, running at a slightly lower heart rate with much cooler weather you're still using quite a bit of energy there as well. Energy. So it's this fine line of like, it's not one for one over there. And so we had to make a bit of an estimation. So at the beginning, a few times we were both saying to each other when you were running about 30 seconds faster than race pace, of like, okay, we probably want to dial it back a little bit because the 3:50 pacer is right in front of us over there. And like to go from aiming for a sub-4 to like aiming for a 3:50, that's a big gap right there. And we can handle it at the beginning, but then later on it becomes a bit more challenging. So, yeah. So how did, like, let's say we came to the halfway point.

Yeah.

How did you feel at that point? What was the time?

I felt pretty good because I thought I could go a lot faster, but we were holding back because we were saving energy for the last part. So we came through I think in 1:59. So it was a close call if we could manage the 4 hours because you're halfway and you only, you have hardly any spare. I felt pretty confident at that point that I thought, but I can increase my speed, but I'm not allowed yet because we're at 21. And I thought, well, at least I have to dial back till 30 or 32 and then we can go faster because then I was confident. Okay. 10K I can manage. If it's getting hard, then 10K, it's not that bad.

And here's one of the reasons, and I don't want to— like, of course, if you want to run harder, like, by all means, I would have let you go. The main reason why I was pretty cautious, as in like, hey, let's dial back a little bit, let's hold back a little bit, is there's been one other time that I've paced a first-time marathoner, and this was during the New York Marathon. This was for project for Strava.

I remember. Yeah.

And this was with Matthew Krueger and this was his first marathon. He had trained for it and then he was going out and he was going out faster than what he should have gone out with.

Yeah.

Meaning I remember filming a video clip of him at mile 8 and he was like all smiles and cheers and all high up and energy like, woo!

Yeah.

And then mile 17 came around, mile 18 came around, and it became really tough and really challenging, having to slow down by several minutes per mile. So that was the only other reference that I had with pacing a first-time marathoner from start to finish and seeing that firsthand. And so this is where I was like, the feeling that you have early on is night and day different than the feeling at mile whatever, 23 or something. So yeah. Okay. And then—

That was a good call. It was a good call.

Well, let's talk further. So we did the half marathon.

Yeah.

And then at one point you decided to put on some music. Tell me about that.

Oh, well, that was just the boring part of the marathon. That was after having finished the run along the Almstuhl, and then you go to this industrial area and it's just a boring part, and sometimes music can give me a boost. I have this techno music that I listen to. So I told you, give me my headphones. I need some techno.

How are you doing?

So I did that for a few, for a few Ks, and that went pretty smooth. And then the Ks, they just were flying by. And then at a certain point we were already at 30 or 32, and I thought, well, That's easy. Yeah. And then we had our talk about what we're going to do for the rest of the race.

So let's, let's talk about that conversation because I think we can, we can really split that race up into 3 sections. The first half marathon is part 1, then the second part is to get to mile 20, and then the third part, which is basically where the race really starts. The rest is just a long warmup. So. Let's like, what did we discuss at that point and how are you feeling and dealing with it?

Well, you did sort of a check-in, like, how are you feeling? How are the legs? And how is the, how's the body? How is their mind? And, uh, I started to feel my legs a bit, but, but that was okay because I also felt that when I did my training runs of 29 and 32, I knew that at that point it would start to hurt a bit. But sometimes I felt like people are scaring you with stories about the marathon, like, okay, at 32, then the race really starts. And, uh, so I had all these visions in mind, like, oh, then it's gonna be horrible. So that was what made me scared about the last 10K. But at the end, at that point when you did the check-in, I felt like, okay, I can go and I wanna go because if I would stay running at this pace, then I wouldn't really feel satisfied at the end. Um, I wanna be tired at the end of the race. So, um, then we, you, you told me, okay, you wanna, uh, keep running on this pace or do you wanna add it up a bit? So that's what we did then and it felt good. And, um, we saw other people slowing down and. Cramping. And so it felt like we made the right decision to do it.

And the interesting, the interesting thing is you like, so cardiac drift for anyone listening is that your heart rate gradually goes higher at the same pace. So like your, your body just needs more energy to cool itself down. And so naturally you start to become slower at the same heart rate or at the same pace, your heart rate just starts going up. And so initially when we started out your first mile, you were in the 145s, then you went to the high 140s, low 150s, mid 150s, and then around mile 20 you're at 157 heart rate.

Yeah.

And so we knew just from looking at your previous Strava where you had finished some long runs, fast finish with a heart rate of 162, that you were able to handle that okay. But then once you start going over that much, then quickly the lactate levels increase and it becomes really hard to maintain that. And so then all of a sudden you went from like a pace that was just a little below sub-4-hour pace. You started picking it up.

Yeah.

And how did that feel? How did the last 10K feel for you?

Really good. Because I thought finally I can run the pace that I wanna run. And, uh, it went very smooth. Well, if I look back, at the, at the film, it doesn't look so smooth, but hey, in my head I run very smooth.

You look smooth.

Yeah. But, but, uh, no, it felt, it felt really good and I still had the energy, so I just wanted to give it all. So I thought, I'm now, I'm going to, if this is the real part of the race, that's what it's all about, then let's go for it and then just put everything in it. And that's, so that's what it So I think that's what we did. And I think from 32 to 37, I still hold back a bit. And then with the last 5K, I thought, okay, now we can just go because it's only 5K. And if we have managed it so far, then we can do the rest as well.

And then at one point we had a little bit of a chat about when things start feeling tough in the race, when it gets hard. Try to relax. Do you remember that part?

Yeah, I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Because, and it's good that you have somebody beside you telling you that because indeed when it's getting a bit tougher, then you're like more tensed in your body. So it's good that somebody tells you, okay, now relax. And that really helps and keep, you know, take a few good breaths and then. You can continue.

That's such a big one because I think sometimes when things get tough, we clench our fists. We bite the jaw. We just like— the shoulders come up.

You don't even notice it by yourself. That's the thing. So it's good somebody telling you.

Because you can't think that clear anymore when you're that many miles in. And so at that point it was you were running with an open chest, you're moving, your spine properly. And like, I thought you were running really smooth over there. Um, tell me a bit more about the race day nutrition of how that unfolded. So it was every 30 minutes a gel, right?

Yeah. Every 30 minutes a gel. And that's what we really, we really checked our watches and we did it very consistently. And then we took the salt pill, I think every hour. Yep.

Yep.

Uh, and we had water and at a certain point also, uh, this sports drink. Yep. Uh, and that's what we used and very consistently, and that worked very well. And it was, the temperatures were pretty low at that day. Well, for race day it was perfect, the temperatures. So, um, um, I didn't really have the feeling that it was very hot or that I needed sponges to cool down or something. No, not at all.

And so you took in 60 grams of carbs per hour. You were taking the Precision Hydration gels without caffeine, 30 grams of carbs per gel. First one 15 minutes before the start, and then we started taking them every half an hour.

Yeah.

And so you took 7 throughout the race. And then I asked you jokingly at the finish line, do you want another gel? And you looked at me like you wanted to kill me. And, um, yeah. How, how did the last, like the last half a mile into the finish feel for you?

That was like, I was sort of in disbelief that we were already there and that it felt so easy. Okay. My, my legs were hurting and my heart rate was going up really fast, but it was only half a mile and I already, you could see the stadium already and there was so many people, so it felt like incredible. Incredible and sort of in a dream that was already there. Yeah, like that.

That's amazing.

And I think at a certain point you told me, I think at the end of the Fondo Park, you said something like, okay, are you realizing we're passing everybody? Because we were speeding up and it went so smoothly and I didn't even see it. But now looking back at the film, I could see it. That, that was what was happening.

So, so here, here's an interesting question, right? Because there's always the, like, what could I have done differently?

Yeah.

And I think pacing for you is one where like, how much faster could you have started?

Yeah.

And would that have made a difference in your finish time? And this is where you and I had a conversation about it where, yeah, possibly you could have ran it 1, 2, 3 minutes faster, right? You could have started faster.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. However, you increase your risk as well that you get to mile 20 and that it becomes much tougher, or you might have to slow down your pace. Or it—

yeah.

And this is one of those where running with a goal time is one thing, running by heart rate is another, running by feel. And sometimes just going at it with like, let's see how race day is going to unfold with a few like guidelines of like, all right, I don't want to get my heart rate go over this much, or I don't really want to run faster than this because then I think I get in trouble. I think you went about race day about as good as it could get. And the enjoyment that I saw from you those last 10Ks, like, yes, you were locked in, you were in the zone, but I could tell like you were just having so much fun out there. And that's what it's all about at the end, right?

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I was also thinking back at the race and I thought maybe I could have done it a bit faster in the beginning, but then, you know, you don't know if you hit the wall at a certain point. And for now it was, it was just perfect. I had so much fun. We could talk along the way. And at a certain point, yeah, I took my headphone and I was in my zone. But it, you know, I really enjoyed it and, um, it was good and I'm happy with the results and, um, yeah, I'm very thankful for how it went. And, um, especially because the night before I slept terrible and then even two nights before it was horrible. Like the first week before or the week before the race, I was very excited, but the two nights before the race, it was just I didn't even dare to look at my watch in the morning to see my sleeping score, my body battery. I didn't dare to watch because, um, I would think it would go into my mind and play tricks on me. But, um, no. So even that doesn't matter, uh, if you don't sleep well for a few nights before the race. Um, you trained well.

And so, so I think this might be a good one to unpack, and we slightly did it already at the end of the Amsterdam Marathon video. But when you zoom out and you answer the question to yourself, why were you so nervous? What was it that you were truly fearing?

I think it was the stories that other people told me. I think that most of the people I spoke to had a very hard last 10K, and that experience that they brought over to me And I thought, well, if they're telling me that the race is only starting, then this is horrible and you, you need to run. And now, uh, it will show if you are, have a strong character or not. And I was like, oh, I don't know. But, um, yeah, so I think that's, and I don't think it even was the unknown, but I think it was more the stories of other people. The experiences of other people. But the experience of other people don't have to be your experience. So that's also a lesson that I took, that, um, you know, everybody prepares on a different way on running a marathon, and everybody does it on its own, at its own, at his or her own pace. So yeah, you can tell how it will be for yourself only then by just doing it.

Yeah, it is. It is really fascinating because when I think back about my first marathon, I think I was in about the same shape as you were. I truly think I was. Yeah, I was in about, let's say, a 3:53 shape.

Yeah, right.

That's the finish time that you ended up coming over the finish line, 3:53. So you did the first half in 1:59 and then the second half in 1:54. So you did a negative split by 5 minutes, which is phenomenal. That's like really strong running right there. The interesting thing is when I did my first marathon, I started at about a 3:30 pace. So I started like as if I was going to run a 3:30 marathon and I had no idea about pacing. I just went. And it felt great until it didn't. And that's when I hit the wall so hard that I thought I was going to die and had to beg someone for Gatorade on the side, like, and I just downed this whole Gatorade in front of me, in front of him. And it was a dead march for several miles until like a slog back to the finish. And I finished in 4 hours 11, and I thought I would never do that again. And like, I didn't run a marathon for another 7 years. And then look at the difference. So we can do, even when you do the training right, you can still screw up really hard by not having a race day strategy with the correct pacing and the correct nutrition.

So it's, yeah. And that's, I think that's the most important thing. Make a plan in advance and stick to the plan because during the race, there's so many people passing you and they're going fast and, and you feel like, oh, I'm, I'm like now one of the last ones running here. That, that's how you can feel. But, um, you have to race your own race. Um, and that's the most important thing because at the end we passed so many people and I'm sure that were the ones who were passing me in the beginning. So it, I think it's important to have a plan when you start because there's so many happening during the race. You have all the audience and you have, um, people passing you and you have the music and everything. So there's a lot of distraction. So if you have a plan in your head, then that's also very comfortable to stick to your plan and just execute it. Yeah.

But it starts with having a plan versus training for 6 months and then going into race day trying to wing it. It's like, no, you spent 6 months training. At least spend a few hours thinking through what, what race day strategy you want to do. The other part of running your own race, I clearly remember when you and I, there were a few bridges that we were running up and like on-ramps to a freeway and there was a bike path on the side that we were running on. And sure enough, we were running up the hill and we just ran by effort. So we slowed down a little bit and we're getting passed left and right by people. And it's like being okay with that and setting the ego aside, just like at the beginning of the race, being completely okay with everyone going past you. Same with all ramps, but then once the downhill starts, you still have some energy left. And once you get to those later stages of the race, you can still push it a bit more. Yeah. So what's next for you? Do you feel now you have the marathon bug and you want to start doing more races, or where is your mind at with this?

Yeah, I want to do another one. I don't know yet which one or when. I saw a nice one in Patagonia that I tried to get you into as well, but not like now, maybe in 2 years or so.

Yeah.

But, uh, maybe in between I'll do another one. I don't know yet. And it's not for me to increase my time or something, but just to get more experience with running the marathon and see what it does if you pick another strategy maybe, or, uh, run in a completely different surroundings in nature. I don't know. It's here, it's busy, so many people.

I got to get you into—

I remember when I went to sleep after the marathon, I couldn't sleep because the only thing I saw were people and screaming and— Chaos.

It's time to introduce you to trail running, Janneke. I know you run in the forest sometimes, but I really do think the next transition is going to be for you to really get into the trails more. Trail running is very nice. A few more questions here. When you zoom out of the last 6 months, Are there any lessons that stand out to you either that apply to your running or maybe even bigger to your health, to your life?

Well, if you really want something and you put effort in it, then you can do it. For example, with the training schedule, it's 5 times a week running. And in the beginning I thought like, oh, this is a lot. You know, how can I manage to do this with the kids and with the full-time job and still wanting to see my friends and my family? But so it was sometimes quite a puzzle. But if you just take time to look at it and if you really want something, then you will manage to arrange to do it. I think what I learned as well is that you can do much more than you think you can do. And patience is also something I, I learned. Patience with running on a low heart rate, and confidence in what you're doing. Yeah.

So well said. Now, I just want to say I'm super proud of you. Like, seeing the effort that you put in on a consistent basis in your training and like knowing that sometimes it's not easy combining work with kids, with travel, with— you ended up going on vacation to Vietnam for a few weeks and still finding ways to get on the treadmill inside and still at least running 2, 3 times a week to keep some base fitness, what we had talked about. And I think this is an interesting one. Sometimes you get nervous about, all right, I'm going to miss X amount of runs and is that going to set me back a lot? Or I'm going to have to step back for a week because something might feel off or whatever. Not that that was the case with you, but— and I think just trusting in the process and you were so patient with that and you trusted the process, but then even going out on race day, and just seeing you going into it with an open mind. And yes, there's race nerves, but at the other hand, just fully embracing the experience and then getting to mile 20. And like, that must have been the most fun I've ever had in running like the last 10K of a race because I was super present throughout the whole thing. And I just saw you running in front with me and besides me and you just locked in, in the zone. And then seeing our family there and like cheering them on, like them cheering us on. And it was just so cool. Phenomenal experience. So very well done there. Yeah.

But I wasn't a very talkative partner for you during the race. I was just focused.

That is what I wanted you to be. And that was totally good. If you would have been chatting away the whole time, you would have been sandbagging it and I would have given you shit afterwards. So that worked out so, so well. Yeah. Do you have any other closing thoughts? There's quite a few people listening that are looking to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete. Do you have any closing thoughts you would like to share share?

Yeah, well, I think I already said it, like, be patient and it's better to build like a strong base than building a pace very fast. So first make sure you have your base, um, correctly and then you can build up your pace. I think that's one of the most important things. And don't let, uh, other people scare you about a race. Just, and race your own race, stick to your plan, I think. And also enjoy the running because you can, like, maybe you want to run as fast as you want, uh, as fast as you can, but then you must focus so much on your breath and on your running that you maybe forget to look around. And okay, I was also very focused, but I saw everything and I noticed it all. And I think that if you really go to the max, then maybe you won't see as much as you can see and enjoy as much as you can enjoy.

So well said, Janneke. And it's really cool to see that you inspired your kids now as well. Felix wanting to run his first 10K before he turns 10.

Yeah, we have to do it in 3 days. So I have to check the legs if I can manage to do the 10. But I think I will. That's awesome.

Very well done. Well, Janneke, thanks so much for sharing your experiences. And I look forward to doing another marathon again with you at some at some point.

The Patagonia one. Patagonia.

That would be awesome. Yeah.

All right. Thank you so much for joining me.

Yeah, thank you. We'll talk next week. All right. Bye-bye. Thanks so much for listening. That was such a special race to do with my sister. Quick reminder that my book Running Breakthroughs is available now, and you can find it as an audiobook, hardcover, paperback, and ebook. You can find it on my website, florisgiermann.com. And there are several different bonuses and bundle options available if you purchase through that website. You can also find it on Amazon globally. So on all of the different websites from Amazon around the world, and you can get there by clicking the link in the bio or in the description here too. You can find it at other bookstores around the world as well. I would love to hear from you. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this podcast episode? And also, if you have purchased a copy of the book, let me know in the comments below as well. I would love to personally thank you there. Several more exciting podcast episodes coming up. I got Laurens van Lingen round 2 coming up here next, and also Dr. Phil Maffetone round 5 in the works, and a variety of different other ones. So stay tuned, back-to-back podcast dropping soon over here. Have fun out there on your runs. Bye now.