#23: Heart Rate Training and Racing with Larisa Dannis

Mentally, it was challenging. You know, the first, the first 2 months I was, you know, I wasn't sure if this was something I could stick with long-term, but what was so magical about it, and this is what I tell everyone, and it's so interesting because even when I look back on my training data, because I still religiously run with a heart rate monitor, you know, I noticed that, you know, as I was sticking with this, my paces suddenly started to come down while my heart rate was staying fixed. And I think once that started to happen and I started to see tangible results from holding to this approach, I realized, wow, there's something to it. And I stuck with it and it just got better and better over time.

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of The Extra Mileage Show. My name is Floris Gierman. And recently I had a fascinating conversation with Larissa Danish. She's a very strong runner from New Hampshire, so on the East Coast of the United States. And she knows a tremendous amount about heart rate training, so that always fascinates me and always really gets me excited to talk more about. She was never really very active as a kid, and when she got her first desk job, she wasn't moving very much and her weight started to creep up. At that point, she realized she wanted to do some things to improve her fitness, and she first started hiking. More, and then from hiking, she got into trail running and into running more. In early 2012, she discovered MEF, low heart rate training, and this tremendously improved her overall health and her overall running as well. So we have a deep conversation about the topic of heart rate training, about improving as an athlete and truly listening to your body, the different signals. And so I learned several new things again on this podcast, and I think there are several good takeaways for others on this conversation as as well. All show notes from today's podcast can be found at extramileage.com/23, so the number 23. Before we dive in, one quick note is that in the coming weeks and months I'm going to be setting up several group runs, several events around the Chicago Marathon, the New York Marathon, the Sacramento Marathon, CIM, and a few other different events. And these are free community events to meet other runners out there, just to have a good time and go for a run. It's going to be a mellow pace, we're not going to be in any type of rush, it's just about having a good time out there. More information can be found at extramilest.com/events and I absolutely look forward to seeing you over there. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Larissa Danish. Welcome to the show, Larissa, I'm very happy that you're here.

Thank you for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here and touched that you thought of me and that I'd make a good interview.

Yeah, absolutely. It's been fascinating because I've been following your work for quite a few years. I got into, like, really into running in 2013, and once I started training, I started looking at what different people are doing, and quite quickly I actually came across your profile. No way! Yeah, no, and this was all on, like, a low heart rate journey discovery. Like, you came up rather quickly on that journey.

Journey.

So what I think would be interesting for the audience is to hear a little bit more about how you actually got into running because you haven't always been a runner, so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Yes, so I actually got into running about 10 years ago and I guess to step back, all throughout my childhood I was active as a kid but never really participated in sports. I was terrible, you know, when you're in high school and they try to get you to try out all the various sports, I was not a team sports type of girl. With the running thing, it all happened because about 12 years ago I started my first office job. When that happens, of course, you can become quite sedentary. I realized that I was quickly getting out of shape and I needed something to get me off that track. For me, it actually started with hiking. I live in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. When I was little, my dad would always take me on hikes in the summertime and on my birthday. I held these wonderful memories of of hiking in New Hampshire and up all of our tallest peaks. And so, you know, my journey started with hiking. I decided to, you know, to start hiking what we call the 48 4,000-footers of New Hampshire, which is, it's a peak bagging list. And once I completed—

The photos look incredible that I've seen that you've shared from there. Your Instagram looks really nice.

It's a beautiful place and I'm grateful to live here. And so So I started off with the hiking and then, you know, I got really, really into it and I got really into peakbagging. And eventually I started putting together these really long hiking days in the mountains. So I'd be out for like 20, 30 miles. And the transition to running was almost instinctive. So I realized that if I could jog the downhills, I could do more miles or I could get done faster. And that's kind of how my journey with running started. And then as I started to to gain fitness and to learn how to train, I realized that I could also run some of the uphills and flats, and from there it just kind of took off. Wow. I met some people who are into ultra running. They told me about this race, the Vermont 100, and they're like, you should come and you can help pace. You can go with a runner for 30 miles at the end. I'm like, my goodness, I've never run 30 miles. I can't possibly do that. You know, I was like, but you know, for me, it's like, I'm someone who always, you know, I, I always like to try things. It's like, you know, you never know until you, until you test it out. Right. So I went and I, and I paced at the Vermont 100 and it was one of those turning points in my life. Just, you know, going there, you know, running through the dark with these little glow sticks to lead the way. I, I was hooked. And from there I knew that I, I wanted to do this thing called ultra running and I signed up for the Vermont 100K. And, and from there I ended up racing quite a bit for a few years.

Wow, that's quite a journey. So for you, did you end up getting into road running at all? Like during that initial stage of you getting from hiking into trail running, did you do much road running at all? Was it right away into ultra running?

So I like to tell people that I approached the sport backwards. So I started with 100Ks and 100 milers and ultimately worked my way down to road marathoning. And so I didn't do much road running at first. But then once I started doing road marathons, so I ran my first road marathon, I think it was in 2012 or 2013. And actually I think it was 2012. And it was one of those things where I was MAF training at the time and I'm like, let's just go hold a MAF heart rate, see what I can do. And I ended up running a 3:07 on a pretty hilly course. And so I was like, wow. I was like, oh wow, there's something to this MAF stuff. And I was like, oh, I didn't know I had those speed of these little trail legs of mine. And so for a couple of years I did do road marathons. Runs and ultimately got my PR down to about 2:44, which was pretty cool. And it was largely with a math, um, you know, a math training emphasis. I did do some speed work, um, in advance of that where my heart rate was getting higher, but, um, it was, um, yeah, it was a pretty neat journey and it was one of those unexpected things where I, I had never thought about doing road marathons and then I tried it and it was just really neat to see that I could run so fast when I, when I never expected I could.

Yeah. Wow. So I definitely want to take a few steps back over here about your, your initial experiences with running, but from there on also, how did it, did you come across low heart rate training and MAF training? How were those, those first experiences?

So MAF training was introduced to me by a good friend who I was running trails with at the time. And so it was, it was fairly early on in my ultra running journey. And when I first started ultra running, I was not at all competitive. I was just, My training wasn't structured. I would just go out and run. And I hit this, this point where I was just, you know, feeling kind of burnt out and lost with my running. And this friend was like, hey, you should try this MAF approach. And he told me all about it. And I was like, why not? You know, anything to get me back on track and to kind of light that spark again. And so I started it and it was, it was one of those things that was just so fascinating to me because as you probably, as you probably learned through your own low heart rate journey, the first month or two I was very, very focused on maintaining this maximum aerobic heart rate and I was running painfully slowly. It was awfully, awfully frustrating. I was like, this can't work.

What did you use to train at? What pace and how much did you have to slow it down?

I used MAPS 180 formula and I found that that works pretty well for me. What I did is I just subtracted my age from 180, and I added 5 beats because at that point I was healthy and I had never had any significant injuries. So what I did is I came up with that number, and then whenever I'd run, whether it be on the road or whether it be on the trails, I never let my heart rate get above that. And I was extremely, extremely, extremely strict about it for, for the first 2 years that I did it. I just never let my heart rate get above that number, and if it did, I would just walk.

How much did you have to slow down your pace? Was that like you had to go a minute per mile slower? Was it 2 minutes per mile?

I would say at least a minute, maybe even more, especially on the uphills.

How was that mentally for you to have to slow down that much?

Mentally, it was challenging. You know, the first, the first 2 months, I was, you know, I wasn't sure if this was something I could stick with long term. But, but what was so magical about it, and this is what I tell everyone, and it's so interesting because even when I look back on my training data, because I still I still religiously run with a heart rate monitor. I noticed that as I was sticking with this, my paces suddenly started to come down while my heart rate was staying fixed. And I think once that started to happen and I started to see tangible results from holding to this approach, I realized, wow, there's something to it. And I stuck with it and it just got better and better over time.

And did you do the math tests as well on a running track?

I, um, I did a handful of them every once in a while, but for the most part, no, I just, I just kept my heart rate and stayed very strict about that. Um, but when I did do MAF tests, I would notice huge improvement. Um, I've gotten to points where, um, at my MAF heart rate, I'm running below a 7-minute pace, which for me is a good sign that I'm running aerobically and very fit and that that aerobic system is strong.

And at what heart rate was that for you?

At that point it was probably about 160. So my max heart rate now is 153. So every time I hit my birthday, actually, it's almost a little bit sad because I'm like, oh no, I lose a beat. I lose a beat.

Yeah. Same here. I started at about 150 and now I'm down to about 143. So it's definitely, uh, definitely coming down over the years, but that's all good though. I think I do truly believe that. Over the years, I have seen kind of some of these zones shift as well. And so it does seem to be more accurate. If I would be running at a 150 heart rate, for me, that would be almost too hard to maintain for an everyday kind of run.

I've noticed that too, as I've gotten older. So, you know, I've been doing this MAP stuff now for over 7 years. And, um, and yeah, it's like now, yes, my heart rate now might be lower, but I'm still running, you know, those same paces at the lower heart rate that I did at a higher heart rate back when I started. And now for me to push to those higher heart rates, it's like, wow, this is a lot more challenging than it used to be.

What I find fascinating though is that you say you ran at MAF or below MAF for 2 years and you didn't go over that at all? Like you didn't do any speed work or intervals during that?

No, and I can provide a little background on that. So yeah, I was very, very strict about MAF for 2 years. And then what happened is I got into the whole road marathoning thing. And so what I told myself is that, okay, if I can run a sub-3 marathon at my math pace, then maybe, hey, I should, I should start to incorporate a little more speed work, potentially start working with a coach to see if, you know, just some, some targeted structured speed can help me bring that PR down even more. And so, and so it did. But, um, yeah, I was very strict about it at first, but it was that whole marathoning thing and hitting that benchmark of running a sub-3 that that got me to start incorporating a bit more speed work.

Yeah, exactly. And so how do you go about, like, so after you have built that massive aerobic base, how do you go eventually about integrating some speed work in that?

Yep, so initially I started working with coaches because even when I was running, you know, doing my whole, you know, just stick with math, I didn't have a whole lot of structure to my training. The only thing that I held constant was at any point in any of your runs, don't go above this heart rate. But I wasn't, you know, like structuring my, my weekly training in any sort of way. I would just kind of go out and run and then do longer runs in the mountains on weekends. So, so what I did is I started working with coaches who had experience with incorporating speed work into, into a training program. And the first coach I worked with, I was very clear up front that I'm a big heart rate girl. I'm like, you know, I don't run by pace. I don't even look at pace. And even to this day, the only metric I have on my watch is my heart rate. I couldn't care less about what my splits are, anything like that, because I found that both in training and in racing and just in mountain adventuring, which is what I do for the most part right now, you know, the biggest thing you can do is really focus on staying in the moment. And that I found that I ran my best races when I was just present and happy and reminding myself of why I was there versus having a watch that has a million different paces and splits and metrics that could could mess with my mental state.

Mm-hmm. That's interesting. So do you, so if let's say you run a specific race, right? Let's say we go back to your Boston Marathon, your 2:44 marathon. How do you go into a race like that if you're not looking at a specific pace? Like what is your heart rate strategy going into a race like that?

Yeah, so that's something that I developed through experience. So once I started doing speed work, I became more familiar with various heart rate ranges that I could sustain for various distances. And to this day, I still use heart rate for pacing. So with marathons, I ran Boston back in 2014, and I knew that I could sustain a 160 to 165 heart rate for, for that distance. At least that was what I was confident I could do leading into Boston. And as it turned out, I could. I think my average heart rate was 162 or 163. 63 for that race at the time. And so that was just Boston. But what I've done is I've been able to develop a strategy for, you know, figuring out what heart rates, heart rates I can sustain for other distances too. So I know what I can sustain for 50K, 50 miles, 100K, and 100 miles. And I found that as long as that's my primary focus, you know, stick to these heart rates for these various distances, I am, I contend to have a pretty good race.

And so if you're saying that 160 to 165, for example, for a marathon, would you ease into that? Like, would you be conservative towards the beginning and have it spike up a little bit later, or are you right away from the beginning of a race towards the 160 already?

Yep. So I, I usually take about a mile to warm up in a marathon, so just to ease up to that 160, 165 heart rate, and then my goal is simply to hold it. For the duration of the race. In ultras, it's a little bit different, especially in trail ultras, because there's so much climbing and descending, and naturally your heart rate will want to go higher when you're going up and it'll go lower when you're going down. So, um, for those, I tend to cap it when I'm climbing, and then when I'm descending, I try to just remain relaxed and focused and let it settle where, where it wants to. Because if you're pushing downhill, like for me, I Downhills are probably my strength, especially if they're non-technical downhills. So I can, I can hustle downhill. And for me to hold a 160 heart rate going downhill, it would be, it would be probably dangerous. So I just take a little bit of a different approach to downhills. Yeah. Interesting is, um, with the heart rate. So I did run a 50-mile road race back in 2014 again. And, um, my goal for that was to hold it around the 100, 150 range. And, um, what was interesting was that I was able to maintain that 150 for the duration of the race. I finished it in 5:59, I think.

That's incredibly fast for a 50-mile.

Thank you. It was, it was on a road course. There were some hills, but for the most part, it was, it was very runnable. And, um, it was just really neat to me just to see that my, my whole, all of my thoughts around, you know, having different heart rates for different types of races and different lengths of races. This really, really could work, especially for me.

It is fascinating because I ran Boston a year later than you did at the exact same time of 2:44, which is funny. We had talked about that beforehand. And I went into it too with a heart rate strategy, but my strategy, instead of keeping it rather consistent throughout, mine has typically been like, I know I can maintain about 159 to 162 rather consistently. So I started out at about 155 to 159 the first half, and then on the uphills I allowed myself to 162 to 165. And towards the end I had to drift up higher towards 162 up to 165. And that was, it was a rather like pretty equal pace it ended up being. The trickiest part is sometimes with these hills, like I, I, I'm similar to you where I don't really look at pace. It's more looking at what is my max effort that I can give that day and whatever the time is going to be, that's the time that's going to be. Yeah. That was definitely a bit of a mind shift for me as well.

You bring up a great point though, which is that, you know, we're all unique and that no one, but that's why it's like the, I think the biggest, I mean, what I love about training is that it teaches me so much about myself.. And so I've learned about like how heart rate works for me. And as I said, I've determined my heart rate ranges just based on experience, I'd say for the most part, and just learning about my body. And so I always tell everyone the most important thing when it comes to training is, is really viewing yourself as an individual and not, not blindly following a plan and not being afraid to, to adopt your own individual strategies depending on your body and your needs.

Absolutely, very well said. So if there's anyone listening who wants to figure out their specific heart rate that might work for them during a marathon or another distance, how would they go about that? Do you have any recommendations there?

Yeah, I'd say a lot of it is just, you know, track that data, you know, see, see what you're doing in your training and then test it out during races. So for marathons, for me, you know, when I look at my Boston, so as I said, I had started working with a coach and he started incorporating a lot of longer runs at heart rate and then a lot of tempo-ish runs, you know, up to 10 miles. And so in those tempo runs, I would tend— I was learning, okay, I could push, you know, above 165 for 10 miles. But at the end of that run, I'd be like, hey, I don't think I could do this for another 16 miles. So I'm like, I think I would have to dial it down just a little bit for the marathon. So I'd say a lot of it is trial and error. And then going out and testing it in real race environments. And so for me, I also, I also do a lot of ultra marathon running. And so I was able to kind of dial in on those heart rate ranges for distances like 50 milers, for example, simply by doing races and seeing how I felt and try not being afraid to try things out within reason. You know, of course, I'm not going to go run a 50 miler as if it was a marathon, but just, you know, trying it out and then You know, going back and looking at that data and refining my approach, my approach based on my learnings.

Yeah, exactly. Have you ever blown up in a race?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, you know, there, there have been, especially, um, I mean, especially when I'm tackling races that, that might be different from what I'm used to. So, um, I guess a good case in point, um, I, in 2013, I, I had a really good run at the Vermont 100. And then 6 weeks later, I was like, hey, I'm going to go run Cascade Crest, which is a race out in Washington state, which, which was my first attempt at a real mountain 100 miler. And for me, I have a lot of experience running in the White Mountains, which are here in New Hampshire and are very, very technical mountains. And so I was like, oh, it's going to be, it's going to be super easy to go out west and run, run a mountain race on more runnable trails. And I went out and I went out way too hard. I was pushing my heart rate to much higher levels than I typically would on climbs. And by mile 40, my legs were toast. And sadly, I had to drop from that race about 60 miles in. But it was a great learning for me because I realized, hey, I mean, for a mountain race where you're going to be out there for 20 hours, 24 hours, you've got to tone it back. You can't, you can't let your heart rate climb to the levels that you typically let it climb in your mountain runs that are 20, 30 miles long.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What do you use heart rate-wise to track? Like, do you use a chest strap?

I do. I'm a chest strap girl. I'm old school. I mean, I, I know they have all of those optical sensors, but I've just, I've found them to be pretty inaccurate for me. Same here. And so for me, since heart rate is such an important metric for me to monitor, I, I stick with the chest strap and I have worn it for many a 100-miler and never had a problem. I know some people don't, they feel like it's restrictive or they feel that, you know, they think they could possibly get chafing, but I, um, I have a few things that I do that really help make it comfortable for some pretty long races.

What do you, what do you do? Like, I'm curious.

All right. So two tips. Firstly, um, one thing that a lot of people have issues with, with heart rate monitors is they find that they, they can, they can be inaccurate. Like they can just have these random spikes. And I've found that with chest straps, the reason for that almost always is that there's not enough lubrication on the strap. So I use electrode gel on the, on the sensor every time I run. Never have any issues. And then the second thing that I do is I apply, you know, sort of a body glide type product called Trailtoes. And I also use Squirrel's Nut Butter and I apply it around the strap and around my back. And then that helps to prevent any chafing issues. And then I'd say the third thing as well is just making sure that it fits correctly. It's not too tight. It's not too loose. And that tends to help me out.

Yeah, that's good. And I've had it, I've had both happen. I've had it during a race where it was too loose and it came down. I've also had it so tight that I could barely breathe. So it's definitely like, yeah, this is definitely where the long, the long training runs come into place as well. And I kind of going back to what you were saying earlier of one of your races that you had blown up in as well, is I've even had that during training runs as well. To kind of figure out where is that right heart rate zone that I can maintain for a longer period of time where I've bonked on some of these longer training runs as well, which is, I see it as a good experience really. I'd rather have that happen sometimes during training than during racing really.

Exactly, I mean, that's why it's so important to use trial and error and test things out. And I will say with my heart rate ranges, what I've noticed is it's about a 10-beat drop for each level of racing. So for marathons, 50Ks, I can, I can maintain— granted, I'm a little bit older now, but it's more like, it's like 160, 165. And then for 50-milers, it tends to be about 145 to 155. And then for 100-milers, I found that my heart rate averages out typically in the 130s. So it's interesting for me, and I'm just sharing this in case it's helpful for anyone that it's been about a 10-beat shift. Um, as I go up in the distance, that is interesting.

If you, do you happen to know your max heart rate and resting heart rate?

I have, I've never had my max heart rate tested. Um, I have a hunch that it's quite low because if I'm pushing, if I'm trying to push myself as hard as possible, it's pretty hard for me to get it much higher than the low 170s. So I think genetically I have a pretty low max heart rate. Max heart rate. In terms of my resting heart rate, it's also pretty low. I don't track it religiously, but it's usually in the high 30s to low 40s.

Wow. Yeah, that is low, definitely. But then again, even looking through your Strava and some of the adventures that you're doing now that you live in New Hampshire in the mountains again, I saw you just in August completed a challenge where you were running like 100,000 feet of vertical gain in one month, right? You were basically hiking and running for 14 to 16 hours a week, which you must have such an incredible aerobic base just because of that as well then.

Yeah, I mean, aerobic base, it's one of those things where if you're really stringent about sticking to this heart rate stuff, you build it more and more and more over time. And at this point, since I said I've been doing this for about 7 years, I do think I have a pretty strong aerobic capacity. And yeah, I mean, with the mountain stuff, it's like, you know, it's for me in particular, it's, it's so important to be strict about heart rate because the mountains that we have here, they may not be, they may not be the tallest in the world, but they have a lot of prominence. So as you've probably seen on my Strava, we get, I get a huge amount of elevation gain on, on any sort of run that I do. And so for me, The longer the run gets, the more important it is to really hold to my heart rate ranges, especially on the climbs, to ensure that I can run strong throughout the, the whole distance.

Yeah. How do you change your overall training philosophy around weather? Because I see you live in a very snowy area, like 6 months out of the year, all your photos on Instagram are very snowy, yet it gets quite warm in your area as well. How do you adjust that?

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those things where in the wintertime, I know that I'm not going to be running as much in the mountains as I typically do in the summertime. You can— so we do get a lot of snow here, so much, in fact, that unless the trails are super, super packed out, you need to be in snowshoes. And, and while you can run in snowshoes, you know, again, depending on conditions, it's, it's not, it's not an easy thing to do, especially with you know, all of the backcountry adventuring, the places that I get out in are very, very remote. So in terms of safety, I'm carrying a whole bunch more gear in the winter. And I am. And so, yeah, I mean, in the wintertime, what I tend to do is I tend to shift to more of a— if I'm doing anything in the mountains, a snowshoe or hiking focus. So I still do big days, but I acknowledge that I'm going to be carrying more weight and that it's going to be slower paced. And then I try to build in more road running. As, you know, during the week just to maintain the leg turnover and make sure I don't lose all of the running. But another thing that I've, I've started doing that I feel is hugely beneficial for me is I take a big block of time in the winter to really focus on strength because all of the mountain adventuring that I do in the summer, it's— I've just found that it's so important to have a physically strong body. So I've had all different body types throughout my running journey. When I started, I was a little bit overweight. And then I hit periods in my life where admittedly I was too lean for what's natural for me. And so I realized that when I was too lean, I just, I wasn't, my body wasn't able to withstand the physical toll of running in the mountains and doing all of that climbing and descending. And so in the wintertime, I found that taking, you know, 3, 4 months to, to really focus on strength training. And for me, I'm, I'm simple. I love barbells. I love lifting heavy and just, you know, that progressive overload. And I'll tell you, I mean, it's made, it's made a huge, huge impact on my running. So this summer I've had, I've had a tremendous season of running in the mountains. I've run times I never thought I could. And, um, I really attribute a lot of it to, um, to both the MAF training, but also to really committing to, um, to focusing on my strength and building my body up to a point where it's physically strong and resilient.

It's, it's really good how in tune with your body you are that you're able to indeed analyse a lot of this and make some of these changes and see if it's working or not and how it's impacting you. And that's why I found it fascinating reading some of your latest blog posts on your website as well, as you go on some of these adventures like what you just did. And then from there you go back and you actually write down of your key learnings and your takeaways and what went well, what can be improved. And I think that is so important as an athlete to do. And you seem to be very spot on with that.

Well, you remind me of that. So I started blogging again and you've reminded me that I need to blog more frequently. I have I have many ideas in my head about posts that I'd like to write, and I just haven't had the time to, to go about them. But maybe you've inspired me to, to really start focusing on that again. But that's, that's one of the things I love about training. It's, it teaches me so much about myself and it's given me that awareness of my body that I'm really so grateful for. It's, I mean, our bodies are amazing things. I'll tell you, when I first started running, If you had told me that I'd be doing what I'm doing now, or that I would have done what I did when I was racing more, I would have thought you crazy. And, um, it's just, it's been such a neat journey. And, um, yeah, a lot of it is just, you know, as I said, gaining that experience and learning about your body and not being afraid to try new things out and making sure that you learn from, from everything you do.

Yeah, exactly. When you do the strength training, Do you do heavier weights shorter periods of time or shorter reps, or do you do lighter weights and more frequently?

So I follow a 5x5 program. So what I do is I focus on 5 compound lifts. So I squat, I deadlift, I row, I bench press, and I overhead press. And I do them for 5 sets of 5 reps. And so my goal with every strength session is to put weight on the bar over time. So, this winter, it was my first time really doing this sort of strength type program. I had dabbled with strength training in the past, but it was more that bodybuilding type thing, you know, like higher rep, you know, just lower weights. With the 5x5, it was really cool. For me, I found it very rewarding because there is something really neat about going into the gym and seeing yourself get physically stronger and able to put more and more weight on the bar. So I started off, you know, not even being able to deadlift 100 pounds. I got my deadlift up to 185 in the course of 3, 4 months. I think my squat— I'm not built to squat. I'm very tall. I have very long limbs. So when I squat, it's hard for me to stay upright. I tend to want to do a forward— sorry, the video— I tend to want to do a forward lean. Just my mechanics, I tend to forward lean. So for Squat, I think I only got up to about 145, 150. And then with upper body, I had no upper body strength, you know, so I couldn't even bench press the bar and I, and I couldn't really overhead press. And it was really rewarding for me to, to realize, oh wow, I can do this. And I also believe that having the added upper body strength, because when you think about it, all of these lifts, I mean, it's, they're all compound movements. So they're making you strong as a whole and they're contributing to your core strength. And I feel like, again, that's huge. For all the technical running that I do.

So how long in between sets do you rest?

Yeah, so I was going about 3 times a week. I try to take at least a full day— between sets in the gym or over the course of the week?

Yeah, I was gonna ask, but also—

So I would lift about 3 times a week. I would try to take at least a day off between lifting, especially as the weight gets heavier. You need more time to recover. And then in terms of rest between sets for an individual workout, again, I would give myself a good bit of rest, usually at least 2 minutes, especially for the lower body lifts like deadlifts and squats.

Yeah, right on. That's good. Let's talk about recovery and also injuries for a little bit over here because I think it's a very important topic and it comes up a lot. What kind of injuries have you experienced yourself over the years and how have you dealt with it?

Yeah, so I've had, I would say, 3 major injuries since I started running. My first major injury was simply due to over-racing and not resting enough. I was training mostly by math at the time. I was doing a lot of speed work. I had just moved to California. And I had really built up my miles. And so what happened to me was I ran that 50-mile race on the road and then rather foolishly thought that I would be ready to run 100K at the 100K World Championships 3 weeks later. And, um, it was a hard lesson to learn. I was not ready. And during that race, I ended up fracturing my fibula. So by mile 7 or 8, I had to stop. I had this weird pain in my It ended up being my fibula. It felt like an ankle pain. And so that was the stress fracture that I had. It was my only bone injury. And, and it took a very long time for me to recover. I was out for almost 6 months. I did— they had put me in a cast and then I was in a boot and I was able to cycle at the time. So I was— so, I mean, it didn't take too long for me to get my fitness back. But that was a really good lesson for me to learn when it comes to overdoing it. And over-racing in particular, because when you're, when you're racing a lot and having success, it's, it's really easy to think that, oh, I'm different. I can, I can sustain more volume than everyone else. And it's, and it's very humbling to learn that the human body, you know, it's, it's got a breaking point and we're not special. We all have our limitations. So, so that one was pretty, pretty tough for me. And then after I had that injury, since I was in a walking cast and a boot for so long, it, ended up changing my walking pattern. So I had, I ended up developing a really strange stride that transitioned into my running. So my gait just was a little bit off. And from there, what happened was I ended up developing a hamstring injury in, in that same leg because my gait was off. And so I was doing, I was doing a faster run one day and all of a sudden I had this searing pain in my hamstring. I had thought I had a pelvic stress fracture. It was so bad. I'll tell you that injury felt more painful than it did when I broke my leg.

And how long after the first injury was this?

It was about a year.

That was a rough year for you then.

Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things though. I mean, I think I had to go through those injuries to get to the point where I was today, where I am today, because at that point in my life, I was just so focused on running and so focused on racing and I was very singular in my focus. And I, it, those injuries really caused me to step back and think, why, why am I doing this? You know, and it helped. It just doing that assessment helped rekindle my love for running and helped me shift my focus to doing it, not because it was what I thought I should be doing, but doing it because it's what I want to do, which is why I've kind of at this point in my life focused again more on, on doing the mountain running and the FKT type stuff. Because that's what makes me happiest. I do hope that someday I can go back and race a bit more, but at this point I'm like, just girl, do what you love. And what I love is going out in the mountains, doing big days, and testing myself on these really challenging trails we have out here.

Yeah, and I see you're running quite a bit with your dogs as well.

Yes, yes, I have two dogs. They're the light of my life. They're athletes in their own right, and there's nothing quite like sharing a trail. With your little furry companions. They bring me a lot of joy when I run. And so I have two dogs. One of them's a young gun. He's turning two on Halloween and he is just so fit and so crazy. He can run circles around me. I always tell everyone on the trail, I'm just trying to keep up with him. And then I also have an older dog who's 9 and a half. And for me, it's just, it's so much fun seeing him out there and still being able to do what he loves. And I attribute a lot of it to the fact that, I mean, with my dogs, I, I think of them as if they're training too. You know, it's like you can't— if when you have dogs, you can't just assume that they're going to be able to go out and do what you do right away. So with my dogs, I, I built them up very gradually into what they're doing. And now, now they're able to run just about anything that I do. And I'd say I take them on 95% of my runs.

So if you go on my Strava, I see them in almost all of the photos.

That's the awesome part. So So yeah, my dogs, like if they had a Strava, it would pretty much be identical to mine.

That would be classic, creating a dog Strava for them. Exactly. And then I just want to go back for a little bit because we talked about injuries, but then how about the actual injury prevention and recovery? Do you do, like in what sort of way do you go about that?

Yeah, and so for me, I think one of the biggest reasons that that I got injured is because I didn't take recovery seriously for a really long time. You know, I would, I would do my runs and then I would always just be go, go, go. So after my runs, I'd be out walking or out doing something. And I never actually gave my body time for dedicated rest. And so one of the things I've started to implement now, it's like my priority is my run. You know, I'm going to go out there, I'm going to have fun. But when I'm not running, I'm relaxing. I'm doing super, super low-key things because recovery is one of those things that's just, it's so overrated. And I mean, heck, I thought it, I mean, or so, yeah, I thought that it was something that—

Hold on, recovery is underrated.

Overrated or underrated?

Underrated.

Underrated. Exactly. I knew I said the wrong word and then I was like— So it's underrated. And so it was one of those things where I am, yeah, I mean, I just, I never took it seriously. And then it was when, and then when I started actually saying, hey, okay, you're going to prioritize your run. You're going to prioritize your recovery after your run. That's when I really just started to see huge progress, especially with my mountain running. I'm right now I'm training, I'd say 65 to 75 miles a week in the mountains on average. Um, I was just off work for 6 weeks, so I had a really, really good training block with anywhere between 19,000 and 25,000 feet of climbing.

How many hours is that?

About 13 to 16, um, depending on the routes I'm taking and depending on how much road running I'm doing, because I do try to do one run a week on, on flatter, faster terrain just to keep the, keep the leg, legs turning over a little bit more. But, um, I, I feel the reason I'm able to sustain that level of training is because I really prioritize recovery nowadays.

Yeah. What, what tools do you use? Do you have foam rollers, ice baths, Epsom salt? What is your arsenal?

I don't do much. I used to be a foam rolling nut. I used to do that all the time. And you know what? I just stopped it one day and didn't notice any difference. So I don't foam roll, but I used to a lot. I'm not saying I think it's beneficial to many people. I've just found that for me, it doesn't make much difference. The things that I do do that I think are pretty important, and I wouldn't call it recovery per se, but I just call it maintenance. I do do a lot of single leg work. So every day I do, I'd say, 50 to 100 single leg squats, just little partial ones to keep my balance intact. And I'm also really big into doing planks. So what I do is I pulse them throughout my day. I'll just drop down and I'll do like a 2-minute plank and I'll try to do various leg, you know, I'll do like lateral legs to the side or I'll lift my legs like that. And I found that that's just really good for keeping my core strong, especially with the type of running that I do that's very technical. But then aside, I guess from the recovery standpoint, I, I relax, you know, I used to be really big into, I used to like do my run and then I go walk for many, many miles and just always be go, go, go. And now I'm just, I'm cool with just keeping my day very, very mellow.

After I run. That's good. Have you noticed your body change over the last 7 years?

Yes, it's, it's changed a lot. So, um, when I first started running, um, as I said, I, I was a little bit overweight. I had, I'd been working in an office setting and had been pretty sedentary. Um, and then I, um, as I got into running, I did, I did lean out and lose weight. Um, when I started running competitively, I, I would say I was probably maintaining a body type that was too lean for me. And another big eye-opening moment for me was, you know, just taking a step back and saying, hey, okay, we're not going to focus on body type. We're going to focus on, on fueling your body for the activity level that you want to do. And when I started to do that, I did put on weight. I would say a lot of it's muscle because for me, just naturally, I tend to be a woman who's tall and more muscular versus super, super lean. I'm not that typical. Running runner stereotype. And so now I am, I think it's, it's settled down pretty nicely. I've, I've maintained some of the muscle that I built up from all of the strength training that I do during the winter. And, um, and I'd say most people tell me I look strong.

Well, that's good. That's, uh, that will definitely be beneficial through any of your races, I'm sure. So right on. How much, um, So we talked for a bit about recovery there. How much sleep are you getting per night?

A lot. I, I, I'd say I sleep between 8 to 10 hours a night.

Good. Are you a morning owl or an evening?

Yeah, so, you know, I am, I am a morning girl now, which is interesting because I used to be a night owl. And, um, I had a friend— I have several friends that are very early risers, and, and they encouraged me to try adjusting my sleep schedule. And it was one of those things where, like, okay, I'll try it for 30 days, and, and it's made a huge benefit. So I tend to wake up about 5 AM, and I found that I just— there's nothing better for me than just waking up, and I just, I feel so productive. And just getting my run done first thing in the morning, it's, it's when I feel best, and it's when the trails are quiet, and I love being out there in the early morning light.

Such a good beginning of the day, right? When the sun comes up and You finish a run and it's 7 in the morning and the day's getting started and you've already done all that.

Oh, I know, you just feel so productive and it starts your day off right.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk for a little bit about nutrition. What have you noticed works well for you in training and also in racing?

Yeah, so with training and with day-to-day life, I'd say I just, I just eat, you know, I don't, I don't overcomplicate it. I've had periods in my life. I mean, I've had periods in my life where I am, where I've been very, very strict about diet and tried all sorts of like keto and, you know, all sorts of diet approaches. And for me, I found it was just not worth the mental hassle. So for me, my focus is on eating a lot of quality foods and enough quality foods to fuel my nutrition and also not cutting out any sort of food group. I've been there, I've done that, you know, and it just— all it did was cause a lot of mental anguish. And so I just— I focus on eating enough and eating what I want and listening to my body and figuring out what foods work best. And for me, I find that I still tend to gravitate mostly towards whole foods. I do do well with a good bit of fat in my diet. So I eat— and I do do well with some meat in my diet as well. So I would say I don't follow any sort of diet plan. I, um, I just eat a lot of good real food and I don't, I don't shy away from any food group or any type of food.

Yeah. But once again, you're listening to your body and it seems to be working well for you both in training and in racing.

And what I tell people who ask, because it is something, it's one of the first questions that come up when you're an active person, it's like, oh, what do you eat? What do you eat? And I'm like, I just eat what I want. I eat enough. And I tell people there's there's no approach that works best for everyone. I mean, people thrive on all sorts of different diets. So again, it's just listening to your body and figuring out what works best for you. And then, so, and then in terms of what I eat in training, um, so for long mountain days, um, I'm a huge fan of Tailwind. Um, Tailwind for me is, is a magical, magical product. Um, I, I love when I can just go out there and for runs for me up to 4 to 5 hours, I can do it straight on Tailwind, just great. But once, once the time on my feet gets longer, I do like to incorporate a bit more real food. I am a big fan of what they call Swedish Fish. So there's these little gummy candies and they are amazing. I find that they digest really well and they're cheaper than gels. I do like gels sometimes. I like sometimes I like Spring Energy, I like B Fuel. And then, yeah, I'd say that's about it. But again, it's just like, just, you know, little bites here and there, but I'd say Tailwind is the big product that I find really helps with me and just, you know, provides enough energy and goes down well.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. So there's quite a few people in the audience that are listening to this podcast and to this video that are looking for different ways to improve as a runner. And quite a few of these people have dabbled with heart rate training here or there. Some people are completely new to it still. Do you have any recommendations, any advice for people looking to improve in general as a runner, not just in the long ultras, but even in some of the shorter distances?

Yeah, I'd say my biggest piece of advice is, is take a step back and remind yourself, you know, why you're doing it in the first place and rekindle that, like, love for the sport. And I, for me, I found that I've made my biggest improvements when I've been running for the right reasons and running in the types of ways that I want to run. Because when I was racing a lot, I got into this, this rut, I should say, where I felt like I was running just because I should. And I was doing certain types of races just because that's what people told me I should be doing, because this is where I might have the most talent. And so for me, I made improvements when I would think about, you know, hey, what, what's the type of running that excites me most? And when you have that excitement for training and you have that excitement to go out and you set these goals, I find that the improvements just come naturally because you have that, that fire within you that really, that really fuels your, fuels your, your drive. And then I'd say some other things that are really important. Making sure you're training in a smart and sustainable way. That's why heart rate's been such a wonderful metric for me. And that's why I've been able to build up such volume is because I have this metric that keeps me honest, that keeps me from overreaching, but also tells me when I may be not pushing hard enough. So just, you know, finding those things that can help you keep your training on point and consistent, and then really making sure you build up your volume smartly, and just that you have that patience. It's really easy to think, okay, you know, just to want to do everything at once, but we have to realize that sometimes our mind is a little bit farther ahead of our bodies, and just really, really, really taking that time to dial into your body, listen to its signals, and not being afraid to hold— don't be afraid to hold back and to listen. If your body's saying, hey, this is too much, it's okay to take some time to just reduce your mileage a little bit, but just really getting that, you know, getting that sense of your body and making sure that you're, you know, you're listening to it and letting that dictate your training.

Yeah. So well said. I see it all the time around me as well, that people stick to a training schedule very rigid. This is the training schedule. This day I have to do this at that pace, that distance, and the importance of adjusting that based on how you you feel on that specific day and knowing that in the long term you're going to have higher chances of improving and not getting injured. Yeah, there's, there's definitely something to be said there.

It's so important for me right now. It's like I, I don't follow any sort of set training schedule. I, I know what volume that I'm able to sustain. I look at that and sometimes I'm like, okay, maybe I'll try to increase this just a little bit next week and see how I feel. But when it to the day-to-day, when it comes to workouts, aside from heart rate, I'm like, I'm just gonna go out and run. And you know, it's just keep it simple.

Yeah, yeah, so well said. What are some of the running gear that you use? What are some of your shoes, your clothing, your— any of the tools that you use?

So with shoes, I mix it up. I'd say for mountain running, I really love Salomon shoes. I do I tend to run in their Sense Ride shoes. Um, but interestingly here in the West, so they, they released the V2. I, I still run in the V1. Um, the V2, they changed the outsole and it's really not grippy at all on our rocks. So I had this terrible fall in the V2. And what I did is I ended up going and buying all of the V1s in my size. So I have this whole stock of old shoes. I hope that they changed the grip for the V3s. So I love Salomons, I love Hokas. I tend to run in Hokas a lot on road because I just feel like they provide that cushioning that really can help take off some of the, the road miles can be kind of hard on your body. And I like the Hokas for that. I wear Ultras, I wear Topos. So I wear lots of different types of shoes and I find that mixing it up is, is pretty beneficial. And it's, it's just nice. I mean, it's like I'm I like all of them. In terms of gear, I like Ultimate Direction. I like Ultra Aspire for race vests and for packs in the wintertime. I just like having the front pockets, which I find really nice. And then for clothing, I'm really big into this company called Ink and Burn. So they have these like very, very colorful, colorful printed, you know, singlets and shorts. And for me, I don't know. I just, I love being able to express myself through my clothing and I love wearing really bright clothing when I run. So, so that's what I use.

People can see you from a mile away.

Oh yes, they can. I get comments all the time. I mean, we have all of these above tree line ridgelines and you can just, you stand out. You can see, you literally can see someone from miles away.

Classic. That's funny. What are some of your upcoming I mean, like you were saying, you're now just focusing more on being in the mountains and really having fun out there. Do you have any further goals out down the line racing-wise?

Yeah, so my focus this summer has been on mountain running and chasing FKTs where I can here in the Northeast. Longer term, it's been a goal for some time, my only dream is to go back to Western States. I ran the race in 2014. It was literally the best day of my life.

Well, you podiumed.

You were second place right there. It was one of those things where I went into that race and I guess it's one of those days where you're out there and everything unfolds in such a perfect manner and you just have to savor it when that happens. That's what happened for me and to have it happen at that race, you know, at that time in my life, it was really a very special moment. And something in my heart tells me that like, if I, if I'm ever able to go back there, I could, I could potentially have another special day. So you never know, but that's, that's the big goal. And so hopefully in the next year or two, if I'm, if I'm fit enough, I'd love to give it a shot.

The energy at that, at that race is so special.

It is that Yeah, it's— and that's— I mean, it's, it's a— it's electric. I mean, you go out there and like, there's just— there's such magic to that course. And it's, it's not just the— it's like the course, but it's the people too. I mean, everything about that race, like, I'd say the only race that I've done that's come close to that sort of energy and atmosphere is Boston. You know, they're just— there are certain races, there's just— there's magic to them where there's like, you just have this environment and this atmosphere.

This is Larissa Danis from New Hampshire.

Finishing the Western States 100. Great job, Larissa. Thank you so much. Congratulations.

You have that smile on your face the whole day.

It started to wane a little bit, but I tried my whole long— That charges you up, and just to be a part of it and to have experienced stuff like that, it's really special, and I'm grateful to have had those those moments.

Absolutely. And I will make sure to share the little video of you finishing that race too, because that's an awesome, awesome video on YouTube.

You know, I, I tell people that I am forever grateful that like the best 30 seconds of my life were captured on film. And so like for me, like for all of the, when I, when I'd hit low points or when I'd be injured, I'd go and I'd watch that clip and it would provide me with so much happiness and so much you know, just it would, it was, it's really special to have that on video.

Yeah, absolutely. Great. Where can people find more about you?

What is your go-to place? Yeah, I'd say I do have an Instagram account. Disclaimer, it's lots of pictures of dogs and clouds and trails and mountains because I'm really passionate about the place that I live in and I love sharing the beauty of it with other people. I'm also on Strava. I love, I love tracking my training. I'm a data nut. I love seeing how my heart rate changes with time. So I'm up on there and I'd say, and I have a website, which is, I've shared, I have not blogging as much as I should be, but maybe I'll be inspired to blog a bit more. But those are really the 3 places that I, that I keep maintained on a regular basis.

Good. Yeah, you're a really good photographer and I love seeing, seeing all the photos of the mountains and the clouds. Those are two things I personally love as well. And then running, obviously. So I'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes so people can find it there as well.

So perfect. The place that I live, it lends itself to beautiful photographs. So I'm literally just pointing and shooting and just thinking, oh my gosh, how lucky am I to have this? This place to run and play in.

I've been thinking about signing up for certain races, like go race in Zion National Park or Grand Canyon, and one of the reasons I've held off for a little bit, because I know I'm gonna be slowing down so much just by taking photos everywhere.

So I did, I did, I did the Zion 100. It was, it was, it was a few, several years ago, and literally it was, that's what I did. I have so many photos from that race because it's just so inspiring, the landscape. You just can't help but stop and want to capture it all.

Yeah, exactly. They usually take me twice as long if I go any of those routes. That's incredible. Do you have any closing thoughts, any closing words to the audience?

No, I mean, it's been a great conversation, and again, I'm so honored that you'd reached out and you wanted to chat with me. And that if anyone has follow-up questions or anything, I'm always available.

Feel free to reach out. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Larissa, and I hope we can continue the conversation again down the line. Definitely. All right. Have a good one. You too. Thank you for listening. I would love to hear from you. What was one key takeaway from today's episode? Please let me know in the comments. All of the show notes from today's episode can be found at extramilers.com/23. That's the number 23. And this includes the different topics we discussed, the different links to the different products that Larissa has mentioned, all of it. Also, a quick reminder that in the coming weeks and months, I'm going to be setting up several different events around the Chicago Marathon, the New York Marathon, CIM, Sacramento Marathon, and a few other different events. And more information can be found at extramilers.com/events. And you can actually RSVP over here as well, either through Facebook or through Strava. There's links to all of the different events there. Many more different episodes are in the works and many podcasts are in the works as well. So make sure to subscribe to be the first to hear when a new episode comes out. Thank you for listening. And have fun out there on your runs.

Later!