#35: MAF Training Frustrations and Improvements, with Kathryn and Jennifer Geyer

So it was by the 3rd mile at 1:42, I was doing 13:21 and a lot of emotional discomfort. We were at a track, of course, so there's like all of these kids playing sports and other people on the track just flying by. And I was just, you know, it was one of those, I'm doing this for a reason.

So it was kind of just a fun thought experiment for me to like go through it and really feel those emotions coming up and have a Oh, everyone must think I'm just like this completely out of shape person that I'm like going so slow.

I found such a transition of really being able to listen to my body more than just sort of like say, oh yeah, I'm listening to my body, but I wasn't really listening to my body. I really had to be patient. I really had to kind of just not look at the pace and change my mentality about it. And particularly because she could always go a little bit faster, I always felt like I was like, just behind her like, I'm coming.

Hello there, running friends around the world. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of The Extramile Show. My name is Floris Gierman, and on this podcast, I interview different guests about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. And one of the most common topics that is often discussed in the extramile community, and some of the questions that come up around this as well, is the frustrations when starting out with low heart rate training and some of the to the challenges that people experience in the initial stages of low heart rate base building. And so that's what we're going to talk about in much detail in today's podcast. One question that is often asked is, does low heart rate training only work for those who are very advanced or elite runners, those who are running high mileage, or only the younger athletes? And I would say that's absolutely not the case. I see this work for runners of different ages across the board, and I see this work for beginners, intermediate intermediate and advanced runners as well. On today's episode, I'm actually interviewing two sisters that are going through their entire journey from when they just started with low heart rate training about 8 months ago to running their first marathon that they just completed a few weeks ago. And when they first started out with low heart rate training, it was challenging for them as well. Like, they used to run an 8-minute mile. And now all of a sudden they had to slow down to about a 13-minute mile. So 8-minute mile is about a 5-minute per kilometer, all the way down to, uh, what is it, an 8-minute per kilometer. And so yes, there were definitely different challenges involved, and it wasn't always easy for them, but they did learn several things along the way of this journey. They are both part of the Marathon PR training program, so I've seen the actual progress and I've heard the progress pretty up close throughout the different months, and I I think there's a lot of different similarities between them and between many of the listeners of this show who are just going through this journey. And I think there's such a big mental component as well, that once you get over that initial stage of having no progress to starting to see some progress, and all of a sudden you realize that this training approach could actually work also for you. And so that's what we're going to be talking about in much detail on today's show. Before I start the show, I want to briefly mention I'm super excited that I'm going to be setting up a free live training soon on Zoom. And this is the first time I'm actually doing this. I am a bit nervous about it, I'm not gonna lie, but I'm actually thinking this is gonna be really fun. So we're gonna get a bunch of people together on Zoom and I'm going to be talking about different ways to improve as a runner in much detail. You can sign up to register for this and you get an exclusive registration link and access to this on Zoom. You can register at 5ktohalfmarathon.com. So that is the number 5K and then tohalfmarathon.com.

And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes as well.

Without further ado, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Catherine and Jennifer.

Welcome to the Extra Mileage Show. I'm glad to have you here.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Yeah, absolutely. It's been, it's been really fun actually following your, your running journey in the last 6 months over here already. And I absolutely want to take a deep dive into all of this. For the listeners at home, it would be great if you can tell a little bit more about your actual background, like how long have you been running for? What, what excited you about running and just a little bit more so we get an understanding of where you're coming from.

Sure.

I'll go first.

This is Catherine. I am, I just turned 34. So for most of my training, I was, or all of my training, I was 33. Um, and my background with running is really none. I actually really had a bad relationship with running when I was, when I was younger in high school and stuff. I really disliked running. I was athletic, so I played a lot of sports, but anytime we had to train and do running stuff. I was just— it was just miserable for me. Um, and then I think I started doing like treadmill runs, I'd say, I don't know, maybe 5, 7 years ago or something. And that was again pretty miserable. I was— we were laughing together talking about that we did this marathon because we used to complain to each other all the time, oh, we have to do this 5K run as part of like this other fitness program we were doing. And it was like what could be more miserable than 5K? Um, and then when I, when I, um, stumbled upon the MAF method, that's when everything changed for me running-wise. I just now have a totally different relationship with it. I just love, I love the activity of running now because, because of the MAF method, I had to slow down. I really started addressing some of the form issues that I had never thought of before. But now that I was running slow, it was kind of easier to pay attention to them and easier to just be present while I was running. Before, it was just like, oh my God, how much longer? And I went through this training process, there's many times when I actually had the thought like, oh, my, my training's only for 30 minutes today. I wish I could do 40. And that was completely foreign to where I had been before.

Yeah. That's a bit of a, bit of a difference from a love-hate relationship to signing up for a, for a first marathon right there.

Yeah.

How was that for you, Jennifer?

Um, in some ways it's similar. I, I used to, I would say I liked running probably a little bit more than Catherine did, but I also liked running faster and I liked, um, I would always get excited by, okay, I'll run, but then I'll do the last mile really fast. But I would always have, after a run, I'd be like, my whole left leg would just be sore. And I was like, oh, it's just the way of running. And I just hobbling around and just thought that was kind of how it was. And I think because I'm 5 years older than Catherine, so I was 38 for our training, so my heart rate was 142. And to go from, Liking that sort of fast run to really slowing was surprisingly torturous. It was, you know, everyone, I mean, you could imagine thinking, oh, run slower, that's going to be easier. And it was so mentally challenging for me to really slow down, but it really sort of created this evolution in my running to find a real connection, not with this sort of conventional, just always run as fast as you can, which I had been thinking and really connect with my form and my body and really becoming a sustainable runner. So I wasn't sore after every run and needing to stretch the entire day to make it through.

And so when you're talking about you used to run fast and you had to slow down a lot, like what, what paces did you used to run at and how much slower did you have to slow down?

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said fast.

No, no, no, but faster.

Like, I used to be able to run like an 8-minute mile was something that I could do. And it— but it— and so then I slowed down to, um, we were just looking at my first math test. I had, uh, a 12:29 mile. So it was, you know, 4 and a half minutes slower. And that was—

at what heart rate was that?

That was the first mile was 138. And then, so 1:42 was my max. So it was by the third mile at 1:42, I was doing 13:21 and a lot of, uh, emotional discomfort because we were at a track, of course. So there's like all of these kids playing sports and other people on the track just flying by. And I was just, you know, it was one of those, I'm doing this for a reason.

How, how did you deal with that? Like, how did you guys both Because obviously having to slow down, and this is a very common theme here. It's not just with you guys. It really seems with a lot of people are getting into this approach of training, having to slow down by a few minutes all the way to like having to walk and take walk breaks. How did you guys deal with that? And what made you decide to still stick with it?

I think it was just a lot of, I mean, it really helped to have you as a resource and everything. Like, I think you had one post on your website about like common, like common problems that come up when you start doing math. And every single thing that I was saying, you had listed it as a thing. It was like the exact words almost. So it was okay, you know, this is, this is what everyone goes through. I, I had had Enough of the experience of this type of running doesn't— like with Jennifer— doesn't cause me the kind of pain the next day. Uh, I feel good when I'm doing it. What if I could do this and eventually get faster? And then each day that I did it, it was like, I'm one more day in, I can't blow it now. I'm like, I can't go back to like zero days in. And then it just, you know, it just— I think just having that faith and having the support of other people who I had known had done this and it had worked for them, you know, just to just keep putting the time in. And in terms of with other people, and, you know, that's kind of my background. I'm really interested in how the mind works and pressures from other people and what, what you should do. So it was kind of just a fun thought experiment for me to like go through it and really feel those emotions coming up and have a, oh, everyone must think I'm just like this completely out of shape person that I'm like going so slow. But I know I just had fun with it, I think.

What about you? What?

I also got what, an extra 5 beats?

So that was challenging too, because I think, you know, she stayed with it the whole time. And there were a couple of times where I did, I went off of math. I was like, I'm just going to run at her pace. That's slow enough. I don't need to do my extra 5 points. And then I would go back to, okay, I would see her improving and I would just kind of be staying the same. And so that's really what had me sort of be reinspired. All right, I really need to do my 1:42, even though it seems like it's just, you know, so slow. And anytime that there was any kind of hill, I would have to walk and just like a real change to my experience of running, but I wasn't— my hip got better, my legs were fine, like it started being a real difference in how I felt in my body. And that to me was a sign of, okay, I— what I was doing before was probably too much of the just push and go, which was an energy that I just felt like really wasn't all that workable or sustainable. So it was a challenging transition, but I think between The support of you and having like, just, okay, there's someone's doing this who has a plan. This is there. I can like sort of see a future and the Facebook group and seeing other people talking about it, that helped. And then just the checking in with my body and having, you know what, this actually feels good. Like it feels like I could just keep going like this. I don't need to have the, oh, I better stop for a couple of days and let my body recover. I didn't need that anymore.

Yeah, that was a big thing that like I would say to if someone was asking me about starting math, I would say like one of the big things is that I used to, I really felt like, like, wow, I'm like the Energizer Bunny. Like I could just keep going and going and going. Like it really just felt like, okay, I'm not going fast, but I can just keep doing this. And that was a really, really great feeling to have.

How long did that take from that moment of feeling antsy, that moment of feeling like I'm running so slow, like, or I have to take walk breaks, to, hey, I'm actually noticing positive change.

I'd say what's funny is whenever we would do a math test, which we did probably like once a month, I would say I would notice change, but I was just looking here and it was— so the first one I did, the first mile was 12:29, and then I think the next one that I have written here was 2 months later. And I was already a minute faster. So I was 11:25, but going 11:25 didn't really feel like a victory. You know, it was like if I had cut a minute off of my normal running time, I would have like, wow, that's amazing, that's great. But cutting a minute off of 12:30, even though it's a substantial change, it still felt like, oh, I'm not, I'm not really progressing. So I think I still had some impatience, but I definitely, I started noticing improvements. And I think it was just, I really had to be patient. I really had to kind of just not look at the pace and change my mentality about it. And particularly because she could always go a little bit faster, I always felt like I was like just behind her. I'm like, I'm coming.

I think actually that we actually did see a big change because we had, we were doing the base building Um, with your program. And then we switched over to the marathon training, which does have speed work in it. So there'd be usually like once a week, most weeks, sometimes not, where we do some sort of speed training. And when we started doing that, we really saw improvement in the math runs. So that was really, that was a really nice thing to see. And it was nice just for one day to like, not be like, what does my watch say?

Yeah, no, exactly. But if you do that too soon, you might start getting some of the injuries or some of the things that you had previously experienced or some of the pains or whatnot. What is fascinating to me when I hear Jennifer say that in, in 2 months she shaved off 1 minute, right? And so although that might not seem much, if you calculate over the duration of a full marathon or even a half marathon, right? The same effort level, how much faster you're actually outputting right there. And I think that is something that, yeah, people want to see progress really quickly, or they're often looking at like, how much can I progress in one week? And they start doing weekly math tests instead of looking over longer periods of time. And, and some people regress first before they even start progressing. Um, and this is where— that's why I often say like, think 3 months ahead, think 6 months, 12 months. But that is the most challenging part, I think, for to first get over that initial hump. I think once you're over that and you start noticing some of those positive improvements, that's when you start almost like believing more that this can actually work for you as well versus like, oh yeah, this works for other people, but it doesn't work for me kind of thing.

So I definitely had that thought a lot. I remember saying to her multiple times like, this just isn't for me. I get it. Some people can do it and that's great for them.

I remember that was the thing that he had on his post. I kept being like, that's what he says everybody says. So that was really helpful to know that, that if you're having the experience, oh, I must be doing this wrong. You're, you're probably doing it right. Cause it feels that ridiculous. Like, no, it can't possibly be above my heart rate. I, am I even moving?

Yeah. It's, it's, it's a funny one that way.

I also found that even like when I was improving that sometimes I would have a, like, I would go back even when I was doing everything exactly to your plan and I would get frustrated by that. But I think even looking back now that it's completely reasonable that, you know, on one day, like you just lose 30 seconds for sort of unexplainable reason, even if like I thought I slept well or I thought it. And I think just really having that, like you were saying, long-term look, like don't compare today to yesterday and make much of it.

And that, that's easier said than done sometimes too. I do it myself too. It's like, but 2 days ago I ran 30 seconds faster. And like, look how many different elements are involved, even with the world that we're living in right now, or like the summer temperatures or nutrition, stress. There's so many different elements involved there too. And some days you just feel better than other days. That's it too. So yeah, that's— so let's, let's talk through this a little bit more. So you continued training and then all of a sudden the race— what, what marathon initially was going to be your first marathon that you were going to run?

Um, it, it was on the same— it was May 24th, May 24th, um, was the scheduled date and it was going to be in Antigua. Um, and that one got canceled. Because of COVID Um, but we figured, well, we've been training all this time. Might as well just go out there and do it. Yeah.

So, so when did you, because I think this is kind of an interesting one of where you guys live now versus where you lived part of the year too, because you have lived in, in New York and then you have also now lived in Antigua or Long Island, right? The small island outside of Antigua. Yeah.

Um, yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, no, like tell me, tell me a little bit more so that, because even the temperature difference, the climate difference is huge. How did you experience that? Yeah.

I mean, we were training like in, in real snow, um, for the first part of it. Um, and that was, that was really tough just in terms of the breathing, breathing with that, all that cold air. And then we had just such a drastic shift when we came out. When did we come out?

January. In January.

So the humidity and the heat here, especially by the time we ran the marathon, it was hot. Like we started the marathon at 3:00 AM and like just even like walking to where we had decided to start it, we were already sweating. Oh boy, this is going to be funny hot. Um, and we definitely noticed even, um, before this training cycle, kind of going back and forth between New York and Antigua, how much you'd have to adjust when you, when you came to Antigua, it was definitely like a good week plus of, uh, of having to run much slower at the same heart rate because of the heat. And we always get up really early to do our runs because it's just too hard otherwise. And then even with that, you really notice a difference.

Well, yeah, and those temperature differences are huge when I'm looking at that, and I feel bad sometimes. I know, like, the listeners in Texas, what they're experiencing, what you guys are experiencing in Singapore, Thailand, like, some of these areas, it gets so hot, humid, Florida, and here I am in California, all spoiled when it's like 70s and no humidity. Like, yeah, it's definitely a difference. So So in January you moved over there and you still had several months before the marathon was actually canceled. And so you were training. Can you talk a little bit more about how the training progressed in those months?

Uh, after that, those ones were really, that's when we started the 18-week, um, marathon training. And that's when we really started to notice a lot of difference because we put the speed work, um, in and it was, um, just we spent a lot more time with form. And I found that once I could pick up my pace a little bit, even occasionally, I would suddenly get my footsteps a lot faster. And then I could kind of translate that to the slower runs too, that I could kind of like bring that motion that I could get at a faster pace to the slower run and kind of help my form in both places. And that, that 18-week period was really just It felt like great running. I mean, there was of course like a couple of days in there where, you know, things weren't great, but it felt like really that was such a great run-up to the marathon of how we did it. And following that, um, that program just felt like really supportive of getting us there.

And we, we took a lot of time also in that period to like play around with how we were going to do like nutrition and water during that time. So we had different types of bars and gels to like figure out what worked best for us. And, um, yeah, so it was just like experimenting with that stuff and kind of just thinking through the whole thing. Um, kind of just maybe visualizing it like during the run, like how, like what everything was going to feel like and how to prepare for that. I found that kind of visualization helpful. I mean, I don't know.

Well, but, but that's the thing, right? Like you're going to go into unknown territory. You've never raced further than some of these runs that you've been doing in training. And, you know, even on race day, it's going to be beyond that in distance and time. And so it's such a mental component there too. It's unknown territory. So, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

It was because we had like when the COVID really broke, it was so interesting. I mean, you talk so much about how stress affects your heart rate. And I had, I mean, I know that in my work there's a similar sort of like stress affects our body and our, I mean, everything. But the amount that my heart rate changed for that, it was probably a 10-day period where it was really intense. I don't know what's happening. What are we going to do? Where are we going to go? Like when it was really intense, my heart rate changed so dramatically. It's like I always knew it and believed it, but seeing the numbers change that I would go out for a run and all of a sudden You know, it'd be like a minute slower or even more than that. And no matter how much I would say, okay, just calm down. Like it was just almost like the stress of that happening. Just, I couldn't like talk my body out of it.

Yeah.

And there's a lot of things happening in your unconscious there. And like you're saying, like as much as you try to like calm down, there's so much unknown, especially those first 2 weeks. I think everyone experienced that of like, what is going on? What's happening in the world right now? And yeah, that was the number one most asked question. It's like, I'm so slow, what's going on? It's like, well, you and everyone else. Here's the other thing. At least now you've become more aware of these signals of your body. And instead of pushing through that, which I see other people do as well, putting more and more stress on it and keep running above and above math, it's like, yeah, or you might, or you might actually take a step back and actually listen to the body and actually adjust and and believe that you're looking at this in the longer term. So yeah. Yeah. And, and then you found out that your race was canceled. Yeah. How was that news? And how did you deal with that?

It was canceled so late compared to all of the other races that we'd been hearing about, cause it was in May. So we were watching all of everybody else's races be canceled and it was kind of inevitable. So we had already kind of decided, all right, you know, we have enough space around us that we can run. 26.2 miles, we can do it. So if the race doesn't happen, we would already decided we were going to do it. So it was, it wasn't that big. It was actually in some ways almost a relief because the idea of like possibly having to go out there with people in May, I was pretty nervous about anyway. So yeah.

And then you guys had to figure out the race route and then you had to figure out the logistics. Tell me about the plan for, for race day. For going into your first marathon?

Well, we have a pretty small area that we run in. It's a loop that was just under 5K. So that's what we had been doing. And there's a couple of ways that you can sort of break it up, but it's basically the same small loop. And we had thought about like really making an official start and finish line, but it's too hard to drive the route to really be able to reasonably do it. So we just decided, all right, we'll just use our watches and we'll We'll stop when it's at 26.2. Yeah. So it was really just wing it.

We also, we had, there's the one section of it that you can like cut through and sort of bisect the island and you cut off like a big hilly section. So we, our plan was okay on a couple of laps, if we're like feeling really tired, we'll do the cut through and, you know, give ourselves a break for that. I honestly don't, we didn't remember to do that. It was just, it was just like plow, you know, just go, just go. I've been thinking about the route. Um, but just one foot in front of the next until my watch says 26.3. I didn't stop it at 26.2 because I didn't want any, I don't want to, you know, any risk.

That's a good, that's a good call right there. At what time did you say you started?

It was just before 3:00 AM.

I love the video from the start. That was basically— well, maybe you guys can explain it a little bit more.

Yeah, it was your idea.

I was just, you know, we just did this sort of selfie video. So there's the two of us with our headlamps on. And, you know, I just pretended that there was like a big, big crowd and a big, you know, field of runners. Sort of just joking around that, you know, no one was going to beat our pace that day. The 11-minute mile pace was really going to be the one to beat.

There we go. And so that was— so what was your actual race plan? What was your strategy going into actual execution? Like you had trained at specific heart rate zones, you had trained with some higher intensity. Then what was it going to be for race day?

So for race day, it was going to be, um, for the first half marathon, it was, we were going to try and be at the like high, high 10-minute, no slower than 11-minute mile pace. And we were going to let ourselves go to like, it would be okay if we went to like 150 heart rate. Um, and then for the second half, the idea was like, see how you're feeling, stick with that. Or perhaps for the last 6 miles or so, like push the pace a little bit and see if we could go a little bit faster. Yeah.

That was really a, like, let's finish it and not end up completely debilitated for the next week.

And that's when race day happened and it ended up being close to 80 Fahrenheit, 26 Celsius, and 91 humidity with a combined total of, if I'm seeing it correct, almost 1,000 feet elevation gain. So, so how did race day actually unfold? Because the first half, the first half looked amazing.

The first half was according to plan. The second half, um, I, I don't know how to explain it. This is Catherine speaking. We, um, we, I think we got to mile 14 and I guess in mile 13, my, my heart rate went up kind of all of a sudden. And the, I noticed like my breathing was, was changing a little bit where I wasn't feeling like it was as regular. And this is actually something that's happened to me in the past where sometimes I like, um, I think they call it, um, like a vasovagal reaction where you kind of feel like you're going to faint and that kind of happened to me. And then from that point, I, I couldn't like re-regulate myself. So everything just felt like an incredible strenuous, really tough effort after that. And so we, we, I started walking, just to see like, oh, let me just like reset and get back, get back going. And I just, I really could never get back going. So it was just a, a real slog effort to get that last 13 miles done. And, um, I was really determined to do it, to finish it. So I just like, I was like, I don't care how slow I'm going. I'm just going to keep putting one foot in front of the next and just do this. Um, so it wasn't, you know, it didn't, didn't go to my ideal plan, but, you know, after everything was said and done, I was just really grateful to have done it. And, and, and I'm looking forward to my next one. You know, I didn't like, I think because of how long I had trained, I didn't have that like killer mentality of like, I gotta get, I gotta get this pace, you know? So I was able to just like kind of accepted as it was happening. It was like, okay, this is what my body's doing today. Like, I'm just gonna— I don't really have a choice but to go with this. And the, like, the main goal was to finish it. So finish it and don't make this so miserable that I'm never going to want to run again. Yeah.

And it is like, if you look at your actual heart rate, because I had taken a look at it as well on Strava, you see like your cruising comfortably in like the 150s, like low 150s, 151, 151, 151, like 152, 153, and then all of a sudden 158, 165. Like, this was interesting to see because, yeah, the pace didn't change that much. But you did mention one thing when we spoke last time as well, right, that halfway through you also had a friend joining and you guys started comfortably talking That was, that was trouble.

Yeah.

Tell me a little bit more about that because, you know, she was great.

You know, she was, she was so high energy because she was, you know, cheerleading and like, come on. She was really just doing it to support us.

Yeah.

Um, and you know, I got really, it had been so just dark and, you know, headlamps and nobody around. And then all of a sudden there's this person here with high energy and somebody was coming out.

Yes.

It was like, all right, we're now, now we're kind of like in race mode. There's other people here, you know, and you know, talking and laughing, it just— I think it just messed up my breathing so that I didn't really realize it maybe until too late that my breathing— and I think that's what triggered that kind of vasovagal, like pass-out-y kind of feeling. So next time, I'm certainly not going to be talking or like laughing with people. Just stay in the zone, stay calm.

And that is the thing though. I feel this is why they say with running experience really matters. Like you almost have to go through some of these experiences. You can read all about it, but until you experience that, and even for myself, my first running coach told me one time like, ah, you can run really comfortable and then feel like a 1 out of 10 discomfort. Within minutes or within seconds, you can shoot to an 8 or 9 or 10 out of 10 discomfort level. And I never understood that really until I tried my first marathon or I tried to hit a certain race time. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh yeah, that can totally happen. And even, even earlier this year, I experienced that where I was like, yeah, let me go out for a run. And I felt so comfortable yet a mile later it shot up again. I'm like, yep, this is why you don't get overconfident. This is why you don't use too much energy when You're feeling really good. So yeah. Yeah.

How do you— I can definitely tell how that experience will— like this experience feels like I was able to just learn so much. And I'm like, you can really tell how with running you just every day, every race, every time out, you just keep gathering all this knowledge about your body, about your mentality, just about how different external circumstances can affect things.

But here's the thing that I do, like, think it's so impressive from you guys. All right, you ended up running your first marathon. Obviously, conditions were far from ideal. Like, it wasn't a big organized race. You had to put everything up yourself. It was just you two guys out there in the, in the dark, and then later on joined by a friend. It's hot, it's humid, there's the stress levels in the back of your mind, all of these different things. Yet still, while things get tough, and even mile 16, mile 18, you decide like, all right, instead of quitting, let me take a walk break. Let me get the heart rate down. Let me figure out what the problems are at hand. And from there on, you're able to still continue running again. Yeah. And like, that's what I feel is so impressive right there. And just you guys, even though you experience all of that, still being able to finish and being able to finish like— and, and actually finishing your first marathon in those conditions, it's like, I'm super proud of you guys there.

That was Thanks a lot. Yeah.

Oh, and at the end, I had this, like, in seeing her and what she went through, and just like there was times where I'd look over and her eyes were doing things that I was like, oh boy, this looks like trouble. And that, you know, it just felt like I was watching this like heroic, you know, like she was just decided to go and just did what she had to do to get there. And it just was so impressive just that like keep going. And then we finally got to the end. I went to high-five her and she was like, already— we finished right near a beach and she was already like gone.

I was like, wait, I didn't get a high-five?

It's like, she's like, no, that's it, I'm done.

No more energy.

I have nothing left.

Yeah, I had like nothing left miles before the end. It was just like, I had never had that experience where You know, I always feel like, yeah, I could go another mile. It's just like a mile. But I, with, at that level of tiredness, it just felt like I don't, I don't know if I'm going to make it like 50 feet. You know, it just, I, that was like another experience to have of like this level of exhaustion that you're just not used to at all.

Yeah.

How did you, how did you in those like mile 20 and mile 22, Like for, for both of you, how did you guys get through that? How did you not decide to stop and how did you continue to move forward? What was it?

I think for me, it was really just, uh, kind of knowing how much training I had under my belt, knowing my body could do it, you know? And I don't know really. I mean, it was just like one foot in front of the next. And I don't know if I have a good answer for that.

I don't know, but you were able to put one foot in front of the other. And before you know it, it was mile 23, mile 24. And actually your heart rate. Yeah. Although your pace slowed down on some of those later miles, even though there are still faster miles in between too, like your heart rate dropped as well to a reasonable controllable level again. So yeah.

And I wonder if I had. Like, you know, just how, like, what, what really happened. Because it just felt like I, you know, when I would start going, that sensation of that, like, kind of like pass-out-y sensation kept coming back. And just, you know, not being able to get over that hurdle. I, you know, because I'd had the experience in training of when, you know, in certain training ones that you had laid out where you do 30 minutes fast and then 15 minutes MAF, and I was able to You know, go from a high heart rate to being able to feel fine again, running the math level. And I don't know why. I mean, obviously something strange was going on in this run. You know, I remember I told you like my eustachian tubes got blocked somehow, like after that, like it was the most horrible, because every step I took, it was like the tubes were touching. So it sounded like a skipping record and it was just like, I'm in some sort of torturous little—

you definitely put it all out there on on your first marathon, you went to war. Yeah.

Wow.

And then from my experience, like I actually had a really, like, it felt like a very easy nurturing for like, besides being worried about her, I was like, oh, this pace feels right. I didn't have any, like mile 20, I was like, oh, I'm good.

I can, I can keep going.

But I think, you know, it was just an interesting, you know, like obviously I was going to stay with her and it was just, uh, like such a different experience of, I mean, it wasn't like it was easy, but going so much slower and just having that, like, it felt like my next marathon is probably going to be like, oh, this is really, really hard. That was a lot easier.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then once again, like you guys were training together, yet the entire race experience is so different. And that's when you can have the most perfect plan going into race day and And yet sometimes it works according to plan and sometimes it doesn't. It's, that's, that's the part of racing, I guess. So, yeah. And so when you finished, what did you do at that point?

Well, like Jennifer said, I just fell into the water.

Um, um, but then, um, yeah, we just, we just like floated in the water for a little bit and just kind of I don't know, just tried to sort of like let our bodies just be completely relaxed. I attempted to do a little bit of stretching, but it was quite pathetic attempt. It was like, it almost felt like even the exertion of like going to do that felt like this is too much work. I need to, you know, but you know, I did tend like the rest of the day, I tried to keep moving a bit just because I know that if I was going to sit down for too long, I was just going to stay there and be really uncomfortable.

But, and then we spoke a few, few days later and you guys looked like you were back to normal again. Yeah.

That's the other thing about like just the, the, the whole training. It feels like the, the level of soreness and body aches and all that stuff. It just, it, that's like transformed from before math to aftermath. It like, sure, there are some like aches and pains and stuff, but nothing like what it used to be when I would run or do any sort of like physical exertion stuff or be like, oh, this is so painful. I can't even go upstairs. It's like, I, you know, I've been the training, we would do half marathons frequently and, you know, we'd look at each other like, I don't even like, I don't feel like I just ran a half marathon. It was just, it just felt normal.

Yeah. Yeah. I really think that the math training and the recovery was just So impressive to me. I really felt like the training that we did and following your plan made such a difference that so quickly after we were finished, you know, probably after 2 days I had it like, all right, I feel like I pretty much have my body back. You know, that it was, you know, it just felt like I trained for a marathon. And so many people talk about having not trained for a marathon and how awful it is after. And it just felt like following that plan just really set us up well for being able to do it and not being like, you know, so injured by it. Yeah.

So when you now look back after, after this experience, some things went really well, some things didn't go according to plan. Like, if you would have to give yourself any like future recommendations for like, all right, if I'm going to be doing this again Now you have obviously gained more experience. What are some of the things you would do the same? What are some of the things that you would do differently?

No talking on race day. I think I would throw in a couple of runs that were, um, because our pace was, was probably slower than like many of the athletes that you, you normally train. Um, we never really got more than 14 miles on any training run. So I would have probably like run longer a couple of times just to get a couple, like a few more miles in.

Um, I think that's a, that's a very valid one right there because it is that fine line between putting enough time on your feet and getting used to that. Um, yet at the other hand, not putting too much stress on your body either, but just being familiar with what is it like to run 16 miles, 18 miles. And just having that kind of as a confidence booster as well, going into race day. Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely see that.

I feel like at those later miles is really when I needed to kind of figure out how to tweak my, like, water or some sort of electrolyte or food. Like just sort of, you know, I could kind of guess pretty well and not like running 13 miles was pretty easy. Like I didn't have to do anything like fuel-wise really to do that. I ate a little bit of a bar, but it was never like, Oh, I have to make sure I do this. And I feel like later, like that practice I think is going to make a lot of difference for future marathons. Just getting a sense of like how every, like what I need at that later point. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you guys have any recommendations for other people? Like not, not just from a marathon perspective, but just people getting into this type of training and people like experiencing certain challenges, is there anything you would suggest or recommend to them?

I feel so—

whenever I talk to someone about running, even, you know, friends who run other ways, I'm always so, like, positive about math running. It just seems like it makes so much sense. It feels like sustainable running. And I think to just have the patience and to sort of develop the mental strength really to do it. And for me, I found such a transition of really being able to listen to my body more than just sort of like say, oh yeah, I'm listening to my body, but I wasn't really listening to my body until pretty far into the training where I could really start to like almost get that my mind and my body could like interact more than before. It was just like my mind saying like, go, Hurry up, faster, you know, like it's just a one-way conversation basically. But I think that the, what I've learned and the patience from doing that and having the support of following your programs and seeing other people in the Facebook group. And it was so reassuring and exciting to see people who are so much faster and so much more advanced, seeing them sort of doing similar things, but having that group around. Was just really felt very supportive and made a huge difference in all those moments where I doubted, like, this is terrible, what, why am I doing this?

Yeah, I mean, I would say something very similar, and I, I would also sort of talk to someone about, you know, question, you know, what, why it is that you're running the way that you're running, and really look at that and look how much of it is sort of this social pressure of the way kind of fitness is looked at and everything's pushed and harder and more and kind of calibrate for yourself. Is that, is that for you how it is, or is that like kind of just how you've sort of been, what you've seen and how you've been taught fitness should be? Because that, you know, I think that's really from what I said earlier, and when I, when I hated running You know, that was all from like this, that kind of mentality. And there's so much joy to be had in just like the movement of your body in, in, in running or whatever. And I think we kind of rip ourselves off of from that experience when it's all push and hard. You know, if you're finding that so many days of your, your whatever your workout is, is like you, you feel like, you know, you want to punch out and like quit and like, oh, this is too hard. I would just say like question that and experiment with something else and give it time to evolve. Because at first it's because of that pressure, it's going to feel like, oh, this is, I'm not even working out. This is weak. This is, you know, what's the point? I'm wasting my time. But I would just say there's, there's so much joy to be had in this type of exercise and running.

Wow, well said. No, I think you're spot on right there. And it is that social pressure sometimes, that ego with yourself of, I could be running so much faster. Like even when we were talking another time, that whole thing of like, I almost want to tell these people around me I can run faster.

It's like I had that so intensely that, you know, someone would run by and I would like see them in the parking lot after and be like, I'm doing math. It's a heart rate training. I'm not this slow. Like, just like the ridiculousness that my mind would come up with. Yeah.

But I think, I think then again, like once you can go, once you can get behind that and, and just run. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, but that takes time. That, that is a mind shift that doesn't come overnight.

So yeah, it feels like you tap, you tap more into the natural flow of like what running should be. I mean, I'm sure you've read the book Born to Run and sort of that philosophy of running. And I mean, maybe it's just my personality, but it, it just feels like, oh, this, this feels right. This feels so integral to what my body's supposed to be doing and how it should feel. And I just, like, I, I would have missed out on that if I had stayed with push harder, do as fast as you possibly can. I would have never had that feeling.

Yeah, yeah, awesome. Where can, uh, where can people find more about you? Is there anywhere that you guys write a post? Is there Is there any place?

Oh yeah, I guess actually we're just probably tomorrow we're taking our business onto Facebook. So if you want to find us on Facebook.

Yeah, what's the name of that?

It's Workability.

W-O-R-K-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y. Perfect.

And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes as well. Great. Tell me a little bit more about Workability. Now I'm curious.

Oh, go ahead. You probably say it better.

We do a lot with a lot of the stuff that we talk about here, that sort of mental challenge of looking to really help people connect with their voice and separate their voice from all of the voices that we've been sort of taught and trained and, you know, by our parents and culture and just really looking to see which one is yours. And from that, when you can connect to that, you really can deliver something that is uniquely yours and more satisfying. And usually, like, that's where brilliance and genius can come from. So we do a lot of question asking and helping people find their distinct voice.

I love it.

Can't wait to check it out. Yes.

Great.

Thank you guys so much. Really appreciate it. And, uh, we'll see you guys very soon again on Strava, I'm sure.

Great.

Thanks, Floris.

Thanks, Floris.

Thank you for listening.

If you would like to find out more information about the Marathon PR Program, check out marathonprprogram.com. And if you want to join us on our free upcoming live training that we're going to set up on Zoom soon, make sure to register at 5ktohalfmarathon.com. That is the number5k and then tohalfmarathon.com, and I'll make sure to link to this as well. This is going to be an event where I'm going to be talking for about an hour about 3 proven ways to improve as a runner, and this is for absolute beginners, intermediate, and advanced runners as well. I look forward to seeing you over there, and make sure to register because seats are limited.

Have a good one.

Bye now.