#38: Matt Fitzgerald on 80/20 Running & Running the Dream!

It's the hardest thing in the world to get runners to slow down if you just tell them to slow down. But if you give them kind of a shtick, hey, it's the 80/20 system, it's the secret sauce. It was like magic. I'm giving them the same advice with just different packaging.

Hello. Hello. Today we have a special episode with Matt Fitzgerald. He's an established endurance sports coach. He is a nutritionist. He's a lifelong runner. And he's also the author of more than 20 books, many of them focused on running. Here are some that you might be familiar with: 80/20 Running, there is How Bad Do You Want It, all focused on the mindset, and then his latest book, Running the Dream. And in today's episode, we take a true deep dive into some of the adventures that he experienced while he was on an elite training camp as a fake running elite. He's basically an amateur runner himself, and for 13 weeks. He went to train at altitude in a training camp over there, and he— we talk about that, like what that entire experience was like. We take a deep dive into low heart rate training and different running intensities, and we talk about the mindset as well, like how to become a stronger athlete mentally, how to deal with injuries, and also how to set like really high-level, next-level goals. It was a really fun conversation and I truly hope that you enjoy it. I have an exciting announcement for the Extra Mileage Show, and that is that I recently hired a video editor and a producer for the Extra Mileage Show. And I'm quite often asked actually, like, Floris, why don't you come out with more episodes? And it truly is that I'm spread too thin. Like, we have a lot of exciting things going on between the YouTube channel, between the Extra Mileage Show, The Extramileist Facebook group and then also our actual training programs for the 5K to half marathon and the marathon-specific program. But this is all passion project for me. Truly, I am working full-time as well at Path Projects, a running clothing company. That is what I spend most of my time on. And so then besides that, I'm homeschooling 2 kids together with my wife and trying to run as well. So yeah, a lot of exciting things going on. But at this point, I actually decided let's hire some additional help. And so the producer and editor, both very talented, are able to help me streamline the process so that I can focus on recording more podcasts and getting those out to you guys. So I really enjoy doing this. If you would like to support the podcast in any way, it would mean the world to me if you can subscribe on iTunes, which is now called Apple Podcast. Still keep calling it iTunes. And if you could take 10 seconds to leave a brief rating or review over there, it really can make a difference to get the podcast in front of more people and get more people to listen to it. And that's truly my, my purpose with this podcast, to help as many runners as I can out there, um, to improve on their own running journey. So if you could take 10 seconds at this point, we are less than 200 ratings. I think we're at about 190. I would love to get that over 300 and get the show in front of more more people. Yeah, and it benefits the YouTube channel again as well. So without further ado, let's dive into my conversation with Matt Fitzgerald. Hello, Matt. Welcome to The Extra Mileage Show. I'm very happy to have you finally on the show over here.

I'm happy to be a guest on your show.

Absolutely. I will have to start out by saying absolutely well done by writing your last book, Running the Dream. It is absolutely— I read the book in like within 2 days and I constantly caught myself laughing out loud. It was such, such a fun, well-written journey over there. So well done on that.

Thank you. Yeah, I know I had great material to work with. It was such just an amazing experience. And I, you know, the kind of experience that if I did my job in telling the story, I knew that a lot of runners could relate to. Of it. Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And we will take a deep dive into your journey of joining like an elite running camp and what your 13-week journey was like leading up to the Chicago Marathon. And then I would love to dive in some more in some of the other topics that you specialize in, from 80/20 running, training your mind. And I know that there's plenty of topics that we can cover over here. So, uh, but yeah, let's start out with your journey. So You ended up deciding to join in Flagstaff at high altitude, an actual elite training camp. Like, what was your thought process behind that? What was your reasoning for joining and what were you hoping to get out of it?

You know, I think it's something that a lot of runners would fantasize about. You know, I started running when I was young, so I ran in high school and at that age everyone thinks they're going to the Olympics or, you know, You fantasize about it. I mean, you're a kid, so what do you want to do when you grow up? Keep on playing, right? And, you know, no matter what your sport is, like, you have that fantasy of turning pro. And, you know, I figured out early on that I didn't have the talent to become a professional runner, but, you know, I got into my mid-40s and was still in love with the sport, still pursuing it at the highest level I could. And I just, at the right time, I read a book called Paper Lion by George Plimpton, where George Plimpton was just this writer dude in the early '60s who talked the Detroit Lions football team into allowing him to participate fully. This guy was not an athlete, he was just a writer. But he got to be their, as he put it, last-string quarterback for a full summer training camp with a real pro football team. And everything, it just all came together. And I thought, you know, because I was, you know, a professional running journalist that I had some connections, I thought, you know, maybe I could pull something like this off myself.

Right on. And so you like the actual camp that you ended up joining was the NAZ Elite. This was a Hoka training camp. Is that correct?

Yep.

Right on. Can you, can you tell a little bit more about like, so is this like a constant training camp? Is it like 12 months a year? Or is this like just people going there specifically for certain races? Like, how does a camp like this work?

Yeah, it's really a team. You know, it's a full-fledged team. So when I was with them, they had about a dozen runners, men and women, and they all had ongoing contracts with the team, you know, for a certain period of time. So yeah, it was year-round. Except for one runner, all of them— well, one runner was in med school in Philadelphia, another, Scott Smith, split time between Los Angeles and Flagstaff, but all the others lived right there in Flagstaff. They saw each other pretty much every day. So, you know, running is different from other sport, you know, team sports like, you know, football, basketball, but this was a team, you know, they all we wore the same uniform and I had the same shoe sponsor, same coach. Uh, and so yeah, there are other teams, professional teams scattered around the country, but I ended up with this one.

You must have been so excited going into that. Like what, what was the experience like for you when you came there from training at sea level, going all of a sudden up to high altitude and all of a sudden being surrounded by, a lot of very advanced runners. What was that like?

Yeah, I mean, I'm a fan of the sport of running. You know, I like other sports too. Some of the things that are more popular as spectator sports. But, and I understand that a lot of recreational runners are not fans of elite competition, but I am, you know, from the time I was a kid, I cared about the top runners. And so this, you know, that's what made this a bit of a fantasy for me. It wasn't just getting to live the life of a professional athlete, but also to be surrounded by people I really admired and looked up to, which was, you know, kind of odd because I was so much older than they were. Um, so there was that, you know, I'm just surrounded by, you know, people that I, I look up to. Um, but also there was just Flagstaff, which is just a paradise if you're a runner. So, you know, even if I had just been there for 13 weeks on my own it would have been a terrific experience. But you put those two elements together and it was— I mean, that was the whole idea. You know, I made this up out of thin air. You know, it was incredibly self-indulgent in a way. It's just like it was my idea of the perfect way to spend a summer.

Yeah, well, it absolutely sounded like it.

What was—

what were some of the main differences, like even just a few examples of things that you noticed with some of your previous training that you had done and then actually going over there and obviously having more access to, to a proper coach, like to an actual team support, training at altitude. What were some of the added benefits and some of the differences you noticed?

Yeah. You know, when you, when you have a full-time professional coach, not just a professional coach, but an elite level coach. Um, you know, I'm a coach myself, uh, but it's different to have someone whose full-time job is to take care of the whole thinking part for you. And so you just have to do. And because what I, what I discovered early on when I got there is that I, I was lazy in coaching myself in a lot of ways that I wasn't even aware of until I had a full-time coach. So Um, you know, the variety of workouts that I was doing, uh, under Ben Rosario, the coach of NAZ Elite, was much greater. You know, you just fall into a rut when it— when you're on your own for year after year after year. So, you know, you know, obviously there were bread and butter, like easy runs and stuff, but a lot of the workouts were one-offs. I did them one time and then didn't see that workout again. For 13 weeks, you know, we ran in different venues constantly. I think I was there close to 2 weeks before I ran in the same place twice. So all this stuff that just, you know, adds variety and nuance to the training process, you know, it was added to my training because I had someone that was his full-time job, you know, to to take care of that stuff.

Yeah. How much does the— because this is always one interesting one when I'm even looking at some of my own training. Like, yeah, I would go out and from time to time I would run with other people, but it's quite a bit of solo miles as well. Like, what did you find? Like, how much of an impact helped that from a motivation level of being surrounded by teammates and having other people constantly to run with? What was that like?

Yeah, you know, I, I definitely skew on the introvert side of the personality spectrum, so I'm okay training as a, a lone wolf. And I don't know, I'm just so passionate about running that motivation is almost never a problem. And yet when I was in that team environment, my motivation level just skyrocketed. You know, I, I, I had the feeling that the, the full-time members, the real pros on the team kind of got a kick out of me because I would show up to every run with this big old goofy grin, just like so excited to be there. And I was, you know, because it was just new and different for me. You know, it's such an intangible that— I mean, it's part of the reason, you know, technically running is an individual sport, but part of the reason they create teams at that level is because there is a benefit. Um, and it, it's hard to measure. Um, but I feel that, I mean, in point of fact, I did improve, uh, markedly during the 13 weeks I was there. You know, I was 46 years old at the time. I had started running competitively, competitively when I was 11 years old. Uh, and yet I had this incredible athletic renaissance. That I experienced while I was there. And I, and I really believe that the team environment played a huge role in that.

Yeah, I can imagine. I could see that that is, that is a motivating factor. Like, like maybe indeed for even for me personally, maybe some days I feel like, ah, or like majority of the days it will be fine, but then especially towards the end of training cycles when the fatigue levels start kicking in a little bit or some of the motivation goes down a bit. Yeah. How was it like for you to all of a sudden have to, like, obviously, like, you were training at a high level at that point. Do you feel that, like, was your, was your body well able to adapt to that, or were there— what was it challenging at times there too?

That was the most surprising thing, is just how well my body did handle training because, you know, I was middle-aged, I had a lot of miles on my legs, and, you know, I'm injury-prone. Um, you know, that's a big part of it. It's a part of why I wanted to do this so badly is that I, I felt I had never fulfilled my potential, especially at the marathon distance, and it was just because I couldn't stay healthy, or largely because I couldn't stay healthy. So I warned Ben Rosario before I even got out there about this. You know, I said, I, I'm brittle, I'm almost certainly going to get injured while I'm there. And, you know, I wasn't being pessimistic. I just wanted— I knew he would need to know so that we could make the best of it. And yet, so, you know, I— on the one hand, yes, I was constantly on the verge of breaking down while I was there, but I was training a ton. And I did suffer one significant injury while I was there. But aside from that, I felt great. I— the way I described it is it was— it felt as if I were aging in reverse., during the time I was there. I just, you know, part of it I think was, you know, the, the different approach to strength training, you know, because I had— I do strength training on my own, but, you know, we had, you know, coached, professionally coached team strength sessions. And again, that made the training different, more sophisticated, you know. I was getting, you know, massage therapy every single week from someone who only worked on elite runners. So someone You know, anyone can get— anywhere can get a massage, but can you get a really good one for your needs as a competitive runner? Um, and I, you know, I was in and out of the physical therapist's office all the time and getting not— not only getting treatment, but like getting little, you know, corrective exercises to do on my own. And also training on dirt a lot more. Like, all of our easy runs were on trails. And where I happen to live in, in Northern California, it's You got to drive to get to dirt. Um, so, you know, you add all those little things together and they, they just allowed me to handle a very high training load. I remember getting out of bed. I stayed with one of the members of the team, Matt, Matt Yano. I stayed in his house. I remember getting out of bed one morning, it was about maybe 4 weeks out from the Chicago Marathon, and just recalling what it normally felt like to get out of bed 4 weeks before a marathon, you know. I would probably have to crawl, but I just, I felt terrific this time.

That is incredible. What is, what is one of your favorite memories? Like, if you now think back of that time, was there anything in particular that you felt like, oh yeah, that was a great area to run, or I really had fun with these people, or was there anything that—

I mean, there's just so many, and, you know, not all of them are in the book. You know, I kept a journal while I was there. And so, every single day I wrote down everything that I felt was worth capturing. And, you know, when I first, when I wrote the first draft of the book, it was 100,000 words long, which is, you know, it's like 300 pages or whatever. And there was, you know, it was some stuff, you know, was maybe only interesting to me, and it was pretty easy to cut. But there was some stuff I really wanted to put in the book, but couldn't. There is one moment that is in the book that stands out. It's the first one, I guess, that jumps to mind because it's actually one of the things that I kind of anticipated happening, you know, before I got out there because I planned it several months in advance. And so I knew this was going to happen for a while before it happened. And I, when I, in anticipating it, I had this recurring image of me struggling alone because I knew I couldn't keep up with, you know, even though the women on the team were much faster than I was. So I had this image of me like straggling to the finish of a workout that all the real pros had finished already and getting sort of a pity clap from them, uh, sort of how like, you know, the last place finisher in the high school cross-country races I used to run would get, um, you know, just they would be all alone way off the back and everyone would just clap for them. I pictured that, and it sort of did end up coming to pass late in my time there. We went down to, uh, um, a place to do some of the lower elevation training, um, marathon-specific stuff. And yeah, like, the real pros had finished, I'm straggling in alone, and they start clapping and cheering and shouting for me. But the thing that was different from what I anticipated is that, uh, It wasn't pity, it was actually respect, you know. And it wasn't because I was fast— I was way slower than they were. But they, like, they— Fitsum Zinaselassie, one of the members of the team, um, he told me afterward— he was one of the people clapping for me as I finished— he, he said, you know, because it was an epic workout that we had done, he said, I don't know if I could have done that alone, you know. Because I had done the same workout they did, just slower. But he had teammates to run with and I didn't. So that was kind of cool. You know, I earned their respect by showing up every day, suffering and trying to do everything that they did.

Yeah, you, you worked your ass off and they worked their ass off. And that camaraderie really does come through in the book as well, which was incredible. So what a, what a great experience that must have been. So that's, that's nice then. I kind of want to shift topics a little bit towards the whole 80/20 running, which interestingly enough, we have a lot of listeners who are well into heart rate training and low heart rate training. And I've read your book about 80/20 running. And the question, almost like a transition from where we're just talking about your training camp and this concept, Did you see some of the crossover from the 80/20 running approach happening in the training camp as well? Was there quite a bit of easy running going on there too, or was it much more of a higher percentage running too?

Higher. I mean, the whole 80/20 concept, and for those who don't know, it's the idea that you should do 80% of your training at low intensity, the other 20% at moderate to high intensity. That comes from— that's not some scientist's invention. It comes from simply observing elite athletes. I mean, that's what they do. That concept didn't exist until people just, you know, put heart rate monitors on elite Kenyan runners and just, just try to answer the question, what are these folks actually doing when they train? So that's what they do. And I mean, there's only one best way to train, you know, it's the human body. Uh, so it doesn't matter whether you're Kenyan or American, you know, if you want to get to the Olympics and be competitive, you have to train the best way. And there is only one best way, and that's it. It took a long time to discover it. And, you know, I don't want to overstate the case. There's no magic in round numbers, but, you know, you have to run a lot, and most of your running has to be easy, uh, you know, to get the most out of whatever your genetic potential is. And so that is what they did. What's different about— I mean, A, it's interestingly, most elites don't do 80/20. They just naturally do more of a 50/50 thing. But elite runners, in addition to doing a lot, much higher percentage of their training at low intensity, their low intensity is really low. So I mean, for relative to their ability, and you can't conflate slow with low intensity because if you're a 2:10 marathoner, your easy running can be 6:30 per mile or what have you. But, you know, and then Flagstaff, you're at 7,000 feet, so that compounds things further. But when I first showed up, and I, I went in with a recent 2:49 marathon, so that's about the fitness level I was at when I showed up there. And at that level of fitness, it was not advisable for me to run with the real pros in easy runs. I would start off with them and then they would get moving and I would get left behind. And then after a few weeks, I actually found myself often running with the women on the team in easy runs. And it wasn't because I was running too fast. It was because even though they're— they were still better marathoners than I was, they were running so easy for them that I was able to keep up without going too fast for me. And then by the end of the 13 weeks, I was actually doing some of my easy running with the men on the team. Um, so it's, it's true. I mean, you hear the stories, you read the studies, but then, you know, there's no substitute for direct exposure. And that's, that's the reality of it is that they, they run very easy.

Uh, what, what, why do you think it is that so many amateur athletes and even some of the more advanced athletes or elite athletes are running at a higher intensity than their current fitness level, or like doing most or all of their workouts at a higher intensity. What do you think the reasoning is for that?

I think there's a laundry list of reasons. It's not any one thing. One is certainly that. So the whole 80/20 thing was— it's the guy who's credited with discovering it is an exercise physiologist named Steven Seiler. Um, again, no one invented it. It was just observed, but he was the first guy to kind of coin that.

A lot of data research there.

Yeah. Um, so, you know, his, what he points out is that if you're, um, if you don't have elite level talent, your low intensity range is a lot smaller than an elite athlete's. So, you know, especially in running where running is unique in that there's a walk-run transition, like nobody at any level of talent really feels comfortable running slower than about 13 minutes per mile. If you slow down any slower than that, you actually would prefer to walk. So, but for some people, you know, if you're middle-aged and you're not, you know, a super gifted runner and maybe you're a few pounds, a few pounds or more than a few pounds overweight. You can't get far above 13 minutes per mile without straying into what is physiologically a moderate intensity versus low. And so you've only got this much room to work with before, especially, and then you go up a hill and it's game over. You have to walk to stay at low intensity. That's not an issue for the elites. So that's part of it. Um, another part I think is that, you know, elite runners run 120 miles per week. The typical even competitive recreational runner runs about 35 miles per week. So you get— it's— you can get away with running at, you know, doing more of your running at a higher intensity. Now when I say getting away with it, it doesn't— it still isn't optimal. You're not going to improve as much. But if, if an elite runner who trains 120 miles per week tried to do 50% of their training at moderate intensity as we do, they would explode. They couldn't do it. It would kill them. Um, but we, so we can get away with it in that sense. Um, and then there are other reasons too, the Strava factor.

Um, that is a, that is such a big one. The whole ego element. I truly think that that component in general, people not wanting to post slower times on their Strava has been one that I, not many people want to call that out, but I do see that one too.

Yeah, yeah, it, yeah. So yeah, it compounds it big time.

Yeah, absolutely. So there's quite a few different ways of calculating like running intensity, whether that is perceived effort, pace, heart rate. Like when you're talking about 80% easy, 20% moderate to high intensity, how would you go about calculating, in particular, like the easy, um, like there's several different ways outside of having to go to a medical lab. Can you talk a bit more about that?

Yeah. I mean, you know, the, uh, the, the pros really do it by perceived effort. Um, that, you know, they're very pace-oriented for harder stuff, but for easy runs, it's just by feel. Um, the trouble is, you know, I call it intensity blindness. I mean, Another part of the reason that most recreational runners get stuck in what I call the moderate intensity rut is that they're— there's— well, put it this way, you know, if I tell the average recreational runner to go out and run for 45 minutes at low intensity, they'll go out and run for 45 minutes at moderate intensity and think it was low intensity. So they can't— you can calibrate perceived effort But that's not a good starting point for people because it's exactly what's getting you into trouble. Um, so then you need the help of objective metrics. Um, you know, pace, heart rate, and power are, are the ones that are practically useful in the field. Um, you know, uh, power is in a, even though it's the newest and it seems kind of esoteric, it's the most reliable in certain ways because A watt is a watt is a watt. So whether you're running with the wind or against the wind, uphill, downhill, or on a flat, uh, it's the same number. So the physiologists put the dividing line between low and moderate intensity at the ventilatory threshold, the first ventilatory threshold, uh, which is slower than you think. And, um, and so there's a heart rate and a pace and a power associated with that threshold. It's actually defined by breathing rate, but you can't— there are no breathing meters you can take with you, roll alongside you when you run or whatever. Um, so you need like a substitute. And so you can, you can correlate any of those metrics with it. Uh, power is a great one because it's just super reliable, but you know, it's— I don't know if we're going to get to a point where everyone runs With a power meter, pace can work fine, but you just have to know its limitations. Like when you're going uphill, the relationship between intensity and pace gets skewed. Heart rate can be great for holding people back. The trouble with pace is that it's a performance metric, right? So when people see pace, they want, they want to put up good numbers that, you know, the Strava effect. Heart rate is not a performance metric. Like it, no one feels like compelled to get their heart rate higher. There's no way to win with heart rate.

So it's more like a genetics lottery on that one.

Yeah, right. So it's, it's good at slowing people down, but it has— it's fraught in a variety of ways too. It's influenced by so many factors that really can turn signal into noise. So, but you can make any of them work as long as you understand its pros and cons.

Yeah. So, so because even there, talking about it a little bit further, like, yes, there's, there's a lot of different formulas to calculate some of these different things. Yet there's not one size fits all that is 100% accurate for each and every athlete either. Right. And even when I'm thinking about athletes going to a medical lab, sometimes you can get quite accurate data. Sometimes I've had— I've seen data from athletes where They start measuring their resting heart rate because they're nervous before the test of getting blood poked, or like they're not that comfortable running on a treadmill. Their resting heart rate shows all of a sudden 100, whereas normally it would be 50. Or like some of these other elements that, yeah, I, I, I could totally see that part too, where it's not one-size-fits-all approach. Or even when you're looking at pace, yeah, then there's heat involved. Or when you look at powder, powder, oh, power, is a great tool, but yet if you're running in soft sand versus on trail versus on comfortable road, yeah, there's no one-size-fits-all.

The good news is that the one thing you can really— excuse me— really always count on is the talk test of all things, because, you know, that ventilatory threshold, the reason it's important is Is that obviously, you know, as, as exercise intensity increases, your muscles are demanding more oxygen. So your breathing rate increases, you take deeper breaths and more frequent breaths. And at a certain point when, you know, say, say you start off walking and then you walk briskly and then you translate, transition into a very slow jog. And then you transition into a slightly faster jog and you keep going from there. So you're very gradually increasing your intensity. As you go through that process, you're going to get to a point where in order to keep up with the demand of that, those increases in pace, your, your muscles are going to need to start to activate fast-twitch fibers. So, you know, those fibers, they're, they're gas guzzlers, but they're really good for faster running. So your, your, your nervous system knows not to use them unless it needs them, but you're going to get to a certain pace when it needs to start using them. And it's actually not— it's a, you know, it's the dividing line between low and moderate intensity. So you don't need to get to a sprint before you get to the point where you need to kick in some fast-twitch muscle fibers. Well, your brain— it's your brain's job to actually— like, it's like horse and jockey, you know. The muscles are the horse, the brain is the jockey. The muscles aren't going to do anything unless the brain makes them do it. So your brain has to start working harder And it's sort of like a quantum thing. Like when you go, when you go from a very, really slow walk up to that ventilatory threshold, your breathing rate increases very gradually. But they call it a threshold because at that threat, when you cross that threshold, there's a sudden spike. And what's happening there is suddenly your brain has to work harder to kick in those fast-twitch muscle fibers. And the reason that's consequential is that it takes a lot longer to recover from that. So Stephen Seiler, the aforementioned, uh, did a really interesting study where he showed that when people exercise just below that threshold, they recovered much quicker than if they exercised just above it. So it really matters. But other research has shown that the talk test is a reliable indicator of where that threshold is, and you can do it anywhere at any time. So yeah, you should be able to speak in, you know, roughly 50 syllables at a time comfortably. And I get it, comfortably is relatively subjective, but it's not that hard. And there's one study in particular that showed that if you're in doubt, you're above it. So, so you can even account for the doubt part of it. Like, if you're sure it's comfortable, you're good. If you're sure you're not comfortable, you're not good. And if you're not sure, you're also not.

Yeah. And actually, to, to what you were saying earlier as well, like Stephen Seiler, even when I watched some of the videos about how he coached his daughter, he in particular also had a discussion with her about not going over, I believe it was 95%, whether it was 90 or 95, I can't believe what number they were talking about. But really that the recovery was going to take that much longer versus like like stopping it or like tapping it out at a certain point just so you can run normal again the next day without too much recovery needed. So, yeah, right on. Can you tell me a little bit more about 80/20 Endurance, the website and the training programs that you and David Warden, your business partner, have set up?

Yeah, it's funny. I'm the last person I ever expected to be any kind of entrepreneur. You know, my, my passions are writing and endurance sports. Um, and it, you know, the way this whole thing came about is, uh, this company called TrainingPeaks. It was like they were the first big player in, uh, providing online training plans for endurance athletes. And I knew the guys who started the company, and at one point— we're going back to like 2005— they asked me to create the first downloadable online training plans for runners. Uh, so I thought, well, that's cool. At that point, you know, I was just swinging at everything. Like, if someone asked, I said yes. And, you know, I didn't think much of it. I created the plans, they went and sat online. Some time went by, and I think it was partly due to the fact that TrainingPeaks as a company blew up. They, you know, they really just did great as a business, um, and, you know, expanded all over the globe. And then my reputation also kind of went in the same direction through the books I write and stuff. So more and more people were buying those plans. And then, then around somewhere in there, I discovered the whole 80/20 thing. And, you know, my training philosophy was 80/20 in all but name up to that point. You know, that's, it's really just a name, but, but I latched on to it because, you know, for me it was like, it's the hardest thing in the world to get runners to slow down. If you just tell them to slow down. But if you give them kind of a shtick, hey, it's the 80/20 system, it's the secret sauce, it was like magic. I'm giving them the same advice with just different packaging and it works. So I just ran with it and I replaced my online training plans with these, you know, 80/20 plans. And I, I met David Warden around the same time. He's a triathlon coach, um, and he's good at everything that I'm not good at, like spreadsheets.

And numbers and stuff.

Works out, works out well. Yes, yeah, we're, we're, uh, we're an odd couple, but, uh, yeah, I mean, he's great. He's brilliant and conscientious. And so anyway, like, before I knew it, we had like a real company, you know, and it's fun. I have to, I have to say, like, I'm not the kind of person who's particularly motivated by like money. I wouldn't want to like build a business that sold something I wasn't interested in no matter how much money I made. But like this, you know, I, you know, these sports matter to people. Like, that's what coaching is, such a rewarding job, because when people need help and when you actually help them, they're really grateful, you know. Like, it impacts their lives and it's awesome. So, um, so building a business on, on that has just been fun and exciting and, uh, Yeah. Who knows where it's going? We're just trying to do things right. Uh, not, not go too fast and, uh, see where it leads.

Good, good, good. And where can people find out more about this? What is the website?

Uh, the website is 80/20endurance.com. So we have, uh, we have, um, plans for runners and triathletes and obstacle racers at this point, but the 80/20, uh, A system or approach applies to every endurance sport. So rowing, cross-country skiing, a lot of Siler's research in those sports, swimming, cycling, you name it. So eventually we'll get around to all of them. Great.

A lot of work to do for you, writing more, writing more books and more training plans. Right on. I want to jump over to one of your other books. Because you have written so many books, I can just pick up another book cover. But this one, it's something I'm particularly excited about because obviously, yes, there's the focus on the running component, there's the focus on the nutrition, on the low heart rate, on stress management, all different things. But one very key one is training the mind. And you have actually written How Bad Do You Want It? And so you truly discover or like basically take a deep dive into why some of these athletes are performing better than others or what was their mindset like. And I would like to talk a little bit more about that part because I think it's such a fascinating, like, element of this whole running journey. So maybe we can talk a little bit more like what are some of the things that listeners or athletes can do that want to strengthen their mental game, like to basically develop more mental fitness?

Yeah, you know, I think anyone who calls themselves a runner has enough running experience to know that it's an intensely mentally challenging sport, you know, and so I don't need to make that sell. Like, we all know that it's hard. Like, I remember joking all the way back in high school with my teammates, like, I wish we were good at something fun. All right. I mean, it's hard, you know, like running races are just suffer-fests, and that's not really a bad thing, you know, it's just, it's just an acquired taste. And it means that if you want to realize your potential and achieve goals, like you need to work on that. And, and the first piece of advice I would give, you know, some people are just born with it. And a lot of the, you know, the, um, you know, the elite athletes whose stories I go into in, in the book They are the born with it types, and yet they're also human. That's also something that's interwoven in the book. You know, if you don't— if you don't— one of the cool things about my job is that I get to interact directly with some of the best endurance athletes in the world. And one of the things that's eye-opening when you have that type of experience is you see how human these folks really are. Like, yeah, they're special. I mean, a lot of— and a lot of what makes them special is, is above the neck. But also, I mean, they have doubts, they have fears, they make mistakes, they have setbacks and dark nights of the soul just like we do. And I think, you know, it humanizes them when you see that, and it actually makes them all the more impressive. Like, if you look at them from a distance, there's a tendency to assume, oh, you know, they perform at that level because they're talented and they work hard. Well, those two things are true, but there's a third leg on that stool, and it's that they they work really hard on their mental game. So, and for, and for me, I go, I mentioned this in the book, I did not, I was not one of those people who was born with it. Um, you know, my mental game was my Achilles heel, uh, as a young runner. And but when I got back into it, so I quit the sport and I really quit the sport because I was such a mental weakling. Um, but when I got back into it, I was very intentional about trying to become more mentally fit. And that really is half the battle. I mean, there's a lot of, uh, specifics about the how, like how do you develop your mental game, but it really starts with that, that conscious intention. Like, if you just sort of hope it gets easier, you're not going anywhere, you know. Experience helps to a certain degree, but you can accelerate the process exponentially by making it a project. And that's exactly what I did for myself. You know, I think I'm as strong mentally as any athlete I ever raced against in any race. And I was far from that when I was 16 years old.

Yeah. And even, even before you toe a start line and even the moment when you get there, For me, one of the greatest reminders of the mental component and the relationship between mind and body was when I was standing last year at the start line of CIM and I was surrounded by people and I was just ready to start racing. And I knew it was going to be, it was going to be a challenging race. I was going to try to run well. And I looked down on my watch and normally my resting heart rate is in the low 40s. And sure enough, it was, I believe it was 105. And I was like, wow, I need to just take a few deep breaths in and out and everything is okay. But, and I've noticed that previously as well, like just how much of a mental component there is. And then typically once you start running after a few minutes, like some of the nerves kind of go away and you get more into a running routine. But yeah, it's, it's a big correlation right there.

So yeah. And it never stops. You know, like I mentioned before, I've been running for decades now, and one of the reasons that the sport remains interesting for me is that, you know, you can't keep improving physically forever, but you can keep improving mentally forever. Like, that inner journey will take you as far as you want to go, um, and I love it. Uh, you know, just today I was doing like my first tempo run in a while. I suffered a foot injury, um, in late July, and it I'd cross-trained for a while and now I'm, I'm, I'm back into full-on training. But it was the first time— it's a run I do, and these things get people into trouble when they've had a setback. It's a run, it's a bread-and-butter tempo run, 10 miles with 6 miles at kind of a thresholdy pace. And so you have past performances to compare yourself against, and, you know, I felt kind of meh running at a pace that I you know, was not particularly good for, for me. And, but, you know, I knew exactly what the situation was, just because I'm so conscious of the mental component of training. So I very actively chose to interpret what was going on in the most helpful way possible. And it's doable if you just let stuff happen. If you, if you let like how you feel and the numbers control your emotions and thoughts, well, they will very happily. They'll control them and not in a way that, that helps you necessarily. But if you kind of take a step back from what's going on and say, you know, what should I substitute these reflexive thoughts and emotions with that will, will help me like enjoy the experience more and avoid making bad decisions and keep me on track? Keep my eyes on the prize. That's something you can do. And, and, you know, I just gave myself a pat on the back after I finished the run because it wasn't a great run, but it— I made the best of it because of how I chose to interpret what I was experiencing. And, you know, that's, that's part of what I love about coaching too, is that you can, you can instill a lot of the stuff in other athletes. Like, talent is fixed, you know, at conception, right? Like, you can't change that, but like Anyone can get better at, at the mental stuff. Yeah.

And it is so easy to do though, to compare yourself to past performances. And I think in particular for runners who have run for a while, like it's one thing where you're just starting out with running and everything is exciting and you're progressing for a year or two years. But then once you have set certain PRs or you know certain paces you were able to hold, yet you're not at the peak of your training cycle and you start to compare yourself to that. Yeah, that's, that's where you got to be realistic. It's— I will say though, sometimes even if I have one of those runs that you just described, I'm also surprised how quickly some of that fitness can come back again too, that in a matter of 4 or 6 or 8 weeks you're like, well, well advanced again, which is—

that's one of the things I told myself today when I was out there. You know, I said, this is a stepping stone. The next time you do this, this exact workout, it's going to be very different. You're going to feel much better running much faster. The same thing happened because I got really sick, uh, right when COVID-19 hit. I've never been so sick for so long, and I, I've never lost so much fitness at any point. It was just a month of nothing.

Like, oh, that's rough.

I was so sick I couldn't even check the mail at some points, and So, I was truly starting over. And so, and this was earlier just the same year and I got to that same point when I had the same experience I had today, I had in April at some point. And then, sure enough, like, you know, 2 weeks go by, whatever, I do the same workout again and it's much better. So, I have that in my back pocket and yeah, the temptation is there just to pout. I feel bad and I'm running slow., but then all I have to do is remember like, well, you've been here before and there's a, there's a pot of gold waiting for you if you just like, don't pout. Yeah, exactly.

So, so is that somewhat the approach that you would take with running injuries too? Are you able to still think clear at that point too? Because you have mentioned you've dealt with running injuries over time with, I believe it was your Achilles and you had like a few different things going on. How do you approach that? And do you have any suggestions to any of the other runners listening how they can kind of stay in a good spot mentally when dealing with injuries?

Yeah, I know what I'm about to say is easier said than done, but it is doable. It took me a while, but when I get injured and I will get injured again at some point, again, not being pessimistic, it's just That's actually part of what allows me to cope well with injuries now emotionally, is that I expect them. I, I, I view them as part of the sport. You know, I could either lower the bar or just get through them, and I choose to not lower the bar and get through them. So, um, I— what you see the elites do, the, you know, the, the real high performance, like the people on Andy's Elite, and they get injured too. Is they, they stay rational. Like, they have emotions, but they always let their reason call the shots. They always keep their, their logical mind in control. And a little exercise I like to give athletes that can help them with that is pretend it's not you. Like, pretend that the person who got injured is someone you coach. So yeah, you care about the running, but not the same way. You know, it's sort of like giving relationship advice to a sibling. Because like, it is what it is, right? Like, you just like, you cross-train to keep fit, you get a diagnosis, you do corrective exercises to, you know, both rehab and maybe, you know, reduce the likelihood of recurrence. And that's right, when I got this foot injury in late July, I remember, you know, you know, talking to friends and my both of my brothers run, talking to them about it, and they were, they were commiserating like, oh, that's a bummer, man, I'm so sorry. I'm like, I'm not bummed. Like, yeah, I wish I were running, but like, I'm still training like a maniac, like on my bike and stuff. And, you know, I'm, you know, I have lots of good physical therapy contacts and was having like, you know, Zoom consultations and like, I was like doing stuff about it. And like, you know, this is a speed bump, man. Like, again, like, I'm not, I'm not an automaton. Like, I didn't love it, but it was just, it's about coping. Like, I went and signed up for a bike race because I'm like, because I knew it would help psychologically. Like, okay, I can't run. I don't know exactly when I'll be able to return it to full training, but I like riding a bike. And so I signed up for a bike. It took the pressure off. Like, I was— I knew I would be less inclined to rush it and make a stupid mistake that would set me back if I had that. It was like a pressure release valve. Yeah, well, and again, easier said than done, but I wasn't good at this 20 injuries ago, you know, and you know, I got better because how many times do you want to beat your head against the wall?

Yeah, no, but that is spot on. Like even if in cycling you can set certain goals and work towards that, it's almost, yeah, take a bit of that pressure off and take the time for it.

That's good. I call it benign self-manipulation. You got to do it sometimes.

I love it. So, Running the Dream, it really was very motivational to me. It really was an inspiration for me to go after big running goals as well. And I think you described that so well, of like, even you, like, yes, you have had certain running goals to go after, and we all have certain numbers in our head that we hope we want to accomplish one year. And at some point we want to start— there's other things going in our lives, or we notice our bodies are getting older, yet we still want to hang on to certain dreams. And I think you have shown really well through this book and through your journey, like, to aim high and to really go after some of those big goals. Like, I just want to ask you, like, do you have any recommendations for athletes, like, looking to set big goals? Like, any thoughts on setting goals in general that you want to share for running and in life in general?

I certainly do. What one is, uh, I've got two. Like, one is don't make any assumptions, um, you know. And this is funny because I, I, in a way, I'm going to undercut my own advice because I, I did sort of assume, like, I, I went through this kind of midlife crisis in my early 40s when I realized that my last PR was in the past. Like, you know, it was devastating to me actually, 'cause my PRs just weren't all that good to me. They weren't good enough. And I truly grieved it. Like I had, there was, I described it in the book. It was, I ran a half marathon. I was having a little bit, I was healthy and I was getting fit again. And I was, I don't know, 43, 42, 43. And I went into this half marathon thinking, okay, maybe I've got one last shot to do something good. And I DNF'd. I mean, who DNFs a half marathon? But I did. And I'm like, it's over. And I just had to face it. And then I was wrong. You know, I've set more than one PR, not only after that, but years after that. And some of the things I've experienced and done, you know, past 45 truly exploded my ideas about what's possible and what isn't. So just if you think something's impossible, just know that you could well be wrong. And so it's best just to assume that, you can just keep getting better. And eventually you won't keep it— like, everyone sets their last PR at some point. But I think if you assume, oh, I can't get better after a certain age, that, that can become self-fulfilling. Lucky for me, it didn't in my case, and I don't know why it didn't. Like, I did assume I was done getting better, and yet I got better. And actually, that might relate to my second piece of advice, which is don't be afraid to fail. Like, you know, when I went to Flagstaff to train with these professionals, you know, I didn't have as much at stake as they did. You know, their very livelihood depends on their ability to stay healthy and perform. But there was a lot at stake for me too. Like, you know, it wasn't just me. Like, I don't have children, but my wife and my dog came with me. I uprooted our, our whole small family for an entire summer, you know, it was risky financially. And yes, you know, I did want to produce a book out of this. And if I just got injured and wasn't even able to start the Chicago Marathon, or if I just bombed it and there's no way I could tell a story with a happy ending, like, it would have been in a sense all for naught, at least, you know, from a business perspective. But, you know, I was willing to take that risk. And I was also— I did a blog while I was there, which got some traction. A lot of middle-aged runners out there just, they wanted me to succeed for what it might mean for them. So I was— when I ran Chicago, I was highly conscious of that, like, that weight on my shoulders. But, but I was okay with it because, you know, I actually, I wouldn't have done as well as I I did without that pressure. Yeah. So, you know, I, I fail a lot. You know, Sarah Crouch, one of the, the— she wasn't a member of the team, but she's a professional runner who I befriended in Flagstaff while I was there. She kind of— I mean, she was 17 years younger than me, or at least close to 20 years younger than me. And, and she was like, she took me under her wing. But one of the things she told me is that, you know, if you achieve your goals more than 50% of the time, you need to raise the bar. And so it's okay to fail. Like, you know, the best athletes fail a lot because they're setting a high bar, but setting a high bar is actually also what makes them the best athletes. So failure is just— failure is not even really failure. Like, but I am aware just from being a coach that there are a lot of athletes out there who are deathly afraid of failure so that they won't take risks. Yeah. Um, so, you know, the way to get over that is just, I think, to take a crazy risk. It— I've got a sort of a sequel to How Bad You Want It coming out in December called The Comeback Potion. And one thing I advise, or I suggest, that athletes do who want to, like, become more— less, less risk-averse is do like, uh, Eliud Kipchoge did with his sub-2-hour marathon attempt. Like, you know, he had about maybe a 10% chance of doing that, and, and he did it, and he put it, put it out. So go ahead, like, it doesn't have to be a marathon, but just like as an exercise, just pick a goal that you honestly think you have about a 10% chance of achieving, and then go for it. And then you prob— there's a 90%— like, if you approach it logically, I truly mean this mathematically, 10% chance, like, you will almost certainly fail. And you'll see it's okay. It didn't kill you, and you won't regret the experience. And you will probably also have a great performance that just happens to fall short of your moonshot goal.

So that can help a lot too. Yeah. Wow. So well said, Matt. I like— that was, that was incredible. Even, even the part there of like sometimes athletes discovering like running a bit later in life, let's say in their 40s, 50s, or 60s. Like I've, I've even come across like in our Extra Mile List Facebook group, we have a lot of runners who discover kind of the joy that they can get even with low heart rate running, that you don't have to go out and kill yourself in every workout. And even like runners there in their 50s and 60s setting all sorts of running PRs and running the best races ever. And I think this goes hand in hand with what you were just saying earlier there, like don't write yourself off on some of these big running goals. If you truly want to do some of these big things, qualify for Boston or whatever it might be, like absolutely go for it. And Like one example, I want to just call him out because his name is Walter Lineger. He's 68 years old. He's from Switzerland. And even he is running better than he ever has. He's putting in more running miles. He just ran 100K like recently during COVID over here, self-supported 100K. And I'm just so fascinated to see some of these running journeys. It's, it's really inspiring from that perspective.

So Walter is who I want to be 19 years from now. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I want to be respectful of your time. I got 2 more questions over here for you. Do you have any other high-level thoughts for athletes looking to further improve, to really become a stronger, happier, and healthier athlete?

Yeah, one thing that I guess a question I get a lot when people ask me about my fake pro runner experiences, I guess I'm asking a question. I'm being like a politician. I'm asking Answering the question I, I want you to ask, but it really is, it speaks to the spirit of your question. One of the things I brought home with me, because I couldn't bring Ben Rosario and my teammates and the trails and the 7,000 feet of altitude and the great massage therapy, I couldn't bring any of that home with me. But one thing I was able to bring home with me was the professionals' no stone unturned mindset, because that's what I saw. Like when your very livelihood does depend on your performance, you don't just say, oh, well, bad luck. You know, when something goes wrong, you try to figure it out. You try to get an answer. You try to do what you can. You don't drive yourself nuts trying to control everything. That's, that's a dead end, too. But you truly do everything you can. And so when I got home from that experience, I knew I shouldn't try to keep the momentum going. I needed to decompress for a little bit. But inevitably the fire came back and I decided to, in the same spirit, try to improve my Ironman triathlon time from when I was 31 at 48. And I took that no stone unturned mindset into the journey, which, you know, I did not have that mindset for my first one. I just kind of I thought I could bulldoze my way to a great Ironman. And it, you know, I get it. We're not professionals ourselves, so we can only justify putting so much time, so much money into our sport. But you set the limit, you know, just like, just, you know, take that mindset in and then, you know, put the limit wherever you're comfortable. But for me, it was liberating because things I thought, oh, you know, I'm an amateur. I can't justify doing that. And I'm like, why not? You know, I hired a swim coach, for example. I'm not great at swimming. And she lived far away from me. It was inconvenient, but it was worth it. You know, it was absolutely worth it. And so that mindset can help quite a deal. It's kind of a professional approach to your sport.

All the little details can just make or break when every second on the clock can count.

Yeah. I mean, you don't want to go too far down and become a radical. Yeah. But, but, you know, a lot of amateurs, I think they set false limits on themselves just because they don't have a shoe contract. Oh, I can't get a massage every week. Well, if you got the time, you can afford it. Yeah.

Go for it. Yeah. Right on. Great. Wow. That was already an hour conversation right there. Like, where, where can viewers find out more about you? I know you're active I know you're active on Twitter.

What are some of the other platforms? Yeah. So my personal website is mattfitzgerald.org. And then I mentioned 80/20endurance.com and yes, I'm on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram as well.

Great. And I will make sure to link to all of that in the show notes. And I can't wait to see the name of the next, or the book come out in December and check that out.

Yeah, I'm doing my final edits. On it now. So it's right here.

Chapter 9. Very, very excited about it. Absolutely. Great. Thank you so much for your time, Matt. And I look forward to connecting again with you down the line at some point.

Thank you.

I enjoyed it. All right. Bye now. Lots of wise words there by Matt Fitzgerald. And I'll be honest with you, his insights have really gotten me thinking as well about what are some of my big scary running goals for the next 5 years, like in, in different distances from half marathon, full marathon, ultra distances as well. So I started penciling in a few crazy ideas there. If you would have any podcast guests in mind for the Extra Mile Show for future episodes, please leave a comment and let me know who you have in mind that I, that you think I should interview and what is the reason for that as well. I read each and every one of them, and I appreciate your feedback there. If you would like to support this show, please take 10 seconds to head over and subscribe and also leave a, a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Currently we are less than 200 ratings on there, and I would love to get that over the 300 mark to truly get this show in front of more runners and, and just add more value to other runners' lives.

Right there.

Also, before I forget, a link to all of Matt's resources, his different books, his websites, and social platforms can be found in the description. Thanks so much for making it all the way to the end, and have fun out there on your runs.

Later.