#46: MAF Training and Longevity with Ben Edusei

So if anyone who doesn't know epigenetics, it just means how your genes express in different environments. We are all different. So what works for me doesn't mean it's going to work for you. And that's the biggest issue I feel in the health and fitness world. You see all these influencers saying, do this, you know, get up at 5 o'clock in the morning and meditate. Yeah, that works for a lot of people. I mean, I know it'd be great for me if I did that, but I also know, for example, of my mother-in-law, getting up at that time will be the worst thing for her. And the reason why I know that is through the epigenetic profiling. So we're not all designed to wake up at the same time. There are some people who are designed to be morning people, there are some people designed to be more late in the evening. And then it connects into food as well, and lifestyle and kind of how we process certain emotions and kind of the people who we want to be around.

Hello, hello, welcome to another episode of The Extra Mileage Show. My name is Floris Gierman, and on this podcast I interview different guests about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. And today I'm interviewing my good friend from New Zealand, Ben Edusei. Ben is a mobility, strength and conditioning, and running coach. And he's actually a really strong runner himself as well with a half marathon PB of 1:27 and definitely improving further and further. Ben is also one of our coaches in the Personal Best Program, so we really have gotten to know each other very well over the past 18 months, have been talking on a weekly on a variety of different topics, and we're actually very excited to share that on this conversation as well. Ben is a father, he's a speaker, and he's also an ex-elite footballer, which is actually funny. We've had a few back-to-back footballers on the podcast with Ash Lewis last time as well. Ben, he has a degree in sports science, he's a qualified plant-based nutritionist, and he also coaches in epigenetics. I really had a blast catching up with Ben, and I hope you enjoyed this conversation as well. To find out more about our Personal Best program, check out pbprogram.com, and to find out all of the show notes and links of today's episode, go to extramilest.com/46 and join my conversation with Ben Edusei. I will start recording. Hello, Ben. Welcome to the Extramile Show. I'm excited that you're here.

Cheers, Floris. Yeah, I'm excited to do this. It's been a long time coming. And yeah, let's just get into it.

Absolutely. It's been probably for about 12 months now that I think we've been talking almost on a weekly basis or at least once a week. We've been having a lot of different conversations around running, around mobility, strength training, nutrition, like the whole mindset and stress management and stuff. So I thought, well, super excited to actually have a good friend over here on the podcast. But I want to first, I think it would be helpful for some of the listeners to actually hear some of your background because you're not like that new to running. Even at a rather early age, you were already exposed to running. So maybe you can give, give us a brief background of how you got into running?

Yeah, so I mean, originally I'm from the UK, so I played football or soccer depending on where you are on the planet. And I played to a pretty reasonable level. You know, I was able to play lower league professional football, was able to represent my country as well, which is pretty, pretty awesome. And you know, with soccer or football, running is a huge component of that. So I'll be honest with you, I used to hate running. It was the worst part of football, was the running aspect.

And there's plenty of it too.

Yep, there's plenty of it and it's high intensity. And yeah, I always found I struggled at the start of the game, but towards the end of the game, that's when I was better, the way it seemed like when everyone slowed down. So I wasn't really known for my pace, I'll be honest with you. Yeah, and just how I lived as well. And we didn't have a car. So when it came to moving around, I was either walking or running. And that was kind of my means of transport. So yes, I didn't like to, but I kind of had to at the same time. And I was just talking about this with yourself, Floris, a couple of days ago that I remember I did a cross-country event and there was quite a few people there and I finished third, but I never realized at the time. I kind of had to do it. It wasn't something that I wanted to do. And I just wish I could have gone back there and had a word with myself and been like, Ben, this could be something that you might enjoy later on in life. But I didn't. And yeah, and then, yeah, came over, got scouted to come over to New Zealand to play football. And Eventually, a game happened when I asked someone their age, and they were half my age. And that was— I was like, that's time for me to maybe retire. And it just— there was one instance where they'd moved a certain way, my brain moved that way, but my body didn't go that way. And I was like, the moment that happens, it's time to retire. And yeah, I needed something to do.. And I just thought, why not? I was running for my auntie's, and she's got an orphanage in Ghana. So I'm half Ghanaian. And I was like, well, it's a good cause. I need something to do. I'm not very good at sitting around doing nothing. It's painful to watch. And my partner was like, yep, get yourself involved. And that's kind of how my I guess running journey started, but as I said, the more I look back at it is I had a pretty good foundation just from the sports that I played and just how I lived at the same time as well.

Yeah, because when you're training at such a high level of soccer or football here, like you're pretty much training every day, right? Like you're working out. Like what is that? Is that a lot of high-intensity training? Is that— did you guys do some lower intensity too? Was it a lot of strength training? How was that?

It was interesting. The higher, the higher I got in football, the lower intensity the training was. And it was, their aim was when you had all the doctors and the physios and stuff, it was all trying to get you match fit for Saturday or Sunday. Yeah. So it would be, you play a game, you would have recovery, light sessions, and then it would be slowly kind of increasing the intensity, but not too high. It was never something ridiculous. And then match day would happen and that would be the big event. And obviously this preseason where preseason would be terrible, that would be lots of hard work and that would be a combination of strength work. It would be running, lots of running, um, and ball work as well. So it was, it was the more, the lower the level I played, the higher the intensity went, which I found quite confusing. Um, because I was like, well, I was used to the opposite way. Um, And unfortunately, I did suffer a lot of injuries because of that. I feel there was less time on warming up or conditioning and doing, you know, the boring work, the core work, all that sort of stuff. It was all just, let's get into it, let's push as hard as we can. And then, you know, match day would come and there was no recovery. So yeah, so higher I got, lower intensity. And now it makes perfect sense and probably why one of the reasons I kind of fell into math as well. But yeah, the lower, lower levels, the intensity was, I feel, was all wrong. And a lot of people pay for it, including myself.

Yeah, yeah. Talk to, talk to me a little bit more about that, because obviously you have experience with training at different intensities. You have, you've, you've experienced your injuries along the way. Like, what was that like for you? At what point did you start to look at this of like, maybe there's a few other approaches here, or like, how did that transition happen and what did you start noticing?

Um, I guess it was— it started probably, I'd say, 18, 19. I was quite young when it started happening. It was— it would be just when I was starting to hit form and I was performing well, an injury would happen, and it would— the same thing would happen again. I would have a good 4, a good kind of couple of months of training and I would be performing really well, and then all of a sudden there was the same sort of injury. It was always like a pull or a tear, um, and I felt like it was never really going away. And that made me look at how I was training, and in particular I thought, well, I don't have enough strength training in. That was my initial thought. So I started to do a lot more strength work. However, what I did, I trained the wrong way. I trained kind of what you do— would see other people do in the gym. So I was doing, you know, the bench press, the bicep curls, very little leg work. It was building my upper body. So if anything, I was actually making myself less productive as an athlete. And eventually I started learning about different aspects of training because of my areas of expertise and being a trainer. And then I started doing lower body work, but Even then, injuries were still coming up because I was lifting too heavy. It was— every session felt like it was a— I was trying to go for a new personal best, which is, which is the complete wrong way to train. And if I wasn't sore the following day, then, you know, I hadn't pushed myself hard enough. I definitely came from that mindset. Um, and yeah, unfortunately my dad passed away when I was 25, and my health went downhill pretty rapidly. And that was kind of, I would say that was the major turning point, just because my body just wasn't able to meet the demands of the lifestyle I was living. And I had to readjust how I lived. And I had to build from the foundation up again. And that meant just doing a lot of bodyweight work and just moving around. And that was probably when, for the first time in my life, I could say I went with probably 12 months without any significant injury. And I was like, well, hold up here, this could be this could be something pretty, pretty good to look at. So I continued doing that and I started to discover all these different ways of training and I was like, wow, this is kind of what we should really be looking to do. And I think from a training perspective, it is very one-dimensional and all these, all these different training types were completely different and foreign to what I was used to. So it was a combination of gymnastics work, it was yoga work. It was kind of crawling around on the floor. It was bizarre. I mean, I used to have people look at me at the gym thinking, what is this guy doing? But I was never tired after it and I always felt refreshed and I knew that was definitely a step in the right direction. So I would say it was probably, unfortunately, losing my dad and kind of hitting that low point where that was the major turning point for me to change my approach into training.

Yeah. And was that— so you spend a lot of time on strength and mobility that we're definitely going to dive into that because you have helped me significantly with that as well. And I know you have helped many other people. But was at that point the heart rate training already in the mix or did that come later?

That came later. It was, I mean, it was A lot of my training as a personal trainer came for, I had clients for half an hour, and the mindset was try and push them as much as they can get there so they can get their money's worth, you know, they want to leave feeling sweaty and feel like they've done something. So I trained like that as well. So I used to try and do an hour session within 30 minutes, which is, yeah, just not good. And yeah, it was Once I started slowing down and there was a lot more focus on the breathing aspect, um, I didn't look at heart rate, but I knew at the time I wasn't as fatigued. As I said, there would be times where I felt like I hadn't trained, um, and then slowly I started to look at different training methods. There was a couple of kind of well-known strength conditioning coaches, one Charles Poliquin, who's no longer with us, um, and some really other influential trainers, and they started using heart rate monitors for training sessions, and they were suggesting that you want to stay within certain ranges. But this was kind of brand new at the time. This was very kind of out-of-the-box thinking, and I hadn't really looked into it too much. And then obviously when I got into the running, I came across some stuff and I was like, well, maybe I can use the heart rate stuff with my strength work and my endurance work. And yeah, that's kind of how that came across. But yeah, strength work, unfortunately a lot of us tend to think we've got to go hard all the time. That's, that's not beneficial for us at all.

Yeah, no, exactly. And I think it is often until you get injured or until you start hitting certain walls that you start looking for some of these other, other kind of training approaches. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So tell me a little bit more about when you are working with different clients, like you don't necessarily go the traditional route like you're saying, like when you go to the gym, there's different ways that you can approach it. And you're saying at certain stages people started looking at you weird. So, so what are some of those basic fundamentals that you apply there towards, towards your strength training, mobility, and how do you integrate that in with some other people too?

I kind of get the clients and I'll sit down and talk to them first and be like, guys, if you're training with me, expect something different first and foremost. And I talk about longevity. I'm a huge fan of longevity and being able to do what we love for as long as we can. You know, it's the whole purpose of the gym for me is to feel better outside the gym. And to look better outside the gym. I don't really care what I look like when I'm there. It's a form of trying to improve myself. And as I say, with my experience, I realized that I wasn't very flexible. I had very limited flexibility, but I was strong. And I learned strength without flexibility is pointless, and being flexible without having been strong is pointless. It's the combination of the two, and that's what as we know as mobility is. So a lot of the stuff I had to start working with, and I was working with a couple other guys and some mentors as well. Well, I was looking at my feet, it was building from the foundations. So it was sitting in certain postures, it was being able to get to and from the floor without using my hands in different positions, you know, things that we do. Well, what we should be doing on a daily basis. And if anyone's got kids, they'll understand what I mean. You're on the floor and getting up all the time.

And they make it look so easy. That's the That's the other thing. They would squat down next to you as if it's nothing.

Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like a child doesn't really know how to move. They don't know the most efficient way, so they will just get up and down. And because their bodies are just so mobile, they're able to do that. And in theory, we should be able to do that pretty much for quite some time. It shouldn't be that we lose it when we hit 20. You know, I've got clients who are 60 or 70 who move better than me now, you know, it's— they have fantastic movement abilities. So, yeah, so it was kind of just building on being able to sit down on the floor first, and known as archetypal postures, and then trying to put them into flow movements. So trying— I like things that kind of connect into each other and have a nice flow to it. So I started to integrate some of that. And then there was there was a huge kind of rise of animal movement. So there was animal flow and things like that. And that all connected into just being able to have a solid foundation from the ground up. And then from there, it went into more strength work where it's, you know, it can be press-ups and pull-ups, just being able to hold, hang on to a bar, you know, fantastic thing to do to help lengthen the spine, you know, decompress the body from the stress that we tend to have from a day-to-day perspective. And, um, yeah, that's kind of how it went. And twisting the body as well— we don't twist enough. Um, yeah, the body is designed to move in a whole host of different positions, but realistically, the gym— when you look at the gym, you know, if you look at the squat, a lunge, a press, that's probably the basis of 90% of all the gym movements, you know. It's— but we're designed to do so much more. It's kind of like just eating a diet of eating, you know, one or two things and expecting us to have all the nutrient requirements. It just doesn't work like that. So, yeah, so that's kind of what I started looking at, and it was like the more, obviously, you know, the more weird the exercise became, that's when I started to— I need to include that as well. So, yeah, so it started from there.

So I think one thing that was interesting is we just recorded a bunch of different videos together for the Personal Best program, and one thing that I found so interesting is that you've been talking to me one-on-one a lot about like sitting on the floor and doing different positions. And that part right there, it sounds so easy, yet like I know whenever you and I talk, you're often sitting on the floor, you're moving around and like with certain cushions or anything like that. I literally like— so I would sometimes lower my standing desk and I would be like, oh yeah, now I'm gonna work and sit on the floor here for like 20 minutes and just do that. Literally, within 1 minute I'm uncomfortable and I feel like I have to change again and my concentration is out of the window like that. But tell me a little bit more, like how, like in what sort of way would you think about integrating that throughout the day? Or is that, do you do that a little bit here and there or is that more like throughout the day itself?

I mean, obviously it all depends on, I mean, The last couple of years, especially with COVID and everything like that, and a lot of people working at home, it's been easier to incorporate more movements. Because, you know, if you've got a home office, then you, as you say, you can move your desk. But if you're in a work office space, it's a lot harder, you know, if you start sitting cross-legged, people will be like, what's going on here? So I kind of think of, I like to think of movements, the connection with movement and food, that's a, there's a huge thing there. So I like to think of, there's a movement breakfast, lunch and dinner. And if you can get some snacks in between, that's fantastic. And that can be you incorporating some sitting on the floor. I mean, if you're watching TV, it's the perfect opportunity, you know, don't sit on the couch, get some cushions, try to make it as comfortable as you can. But the thing is, you kind of want that uncomfortable pain, but not pain, but uncomfortable unease as a sign to say move into the next position.

It's—

that's the body telling you, I've had enough of this one, we need to move into a different one. And what you should notice is the more that you do that, that the longer you can sit in these positions without the pain, which means that you've actually got that range of motion, and you've got the strength to hold there. So yeah, if you can, I'm a huge fan of first thing in the morning, trying to get some movement in. It doesn't have to be, and you know, your full-on yoga session, it doesn't have to be an hour long. I do a basic routine, which takes I think I've got it down to like 2 or 3 minutes, which just hits all the body parts. I like to hit the ankles, the hips, and the back. They're the kind of 3 main movement areas. If they move well, then the rest of you tends to move well. And then it could be, you know, if you are needing to drive, can you drive a little bit further away from your workplace so you can do a quick 10-15 minute walk to the office? If you are at office every hour or so, can you just have an alarm on. So just to remind you to go and have a walk around the office or go to the toilet, or water break or whatever. I tend to think at lunchtime, if you can have something, go for a walk first and then have something to eat as well, that would be really good because that also helps improve digestion. And then yeah, when you get home from work, yet again, it could be a 5-10 minute walk around the block with, you know, your significant other or the kids or whoever. Listening to an audiobook or some music, and then sitting down in these positions as well. So it doesn't just have to be sitting down, it can be getting outside if you can. But yeah, just the thing is, something's better than nothing. And I think that's the biggest mistake that a lot of when it comes to movement, we tend to think we've got to do the full routine, otherwise it's a waste of time, where even if you're doing something 1 or 2%, that's better than what you were doing a week ago. And that's, it's not, it's It's a very slow, gradual buildup, very similar to running training. It's not like you can't expect to do one session and then be able to run a marathon or a half marathon. It takes time. Yeah, that's just the consistency of it. So, but make it realistic. That's my biggest thing is if you can only have 2 or 3 minutes a day to do something, use them, use that. Don't try and think, oh, I'm going to try and do it for 45 minutes when you don't have the time.

Yeah, start small for sure. One thing that helps me a lot, and you and I have talked so much about water and drinking throughout the day, it's just like having like a big jug of water next to you. And because you're downing water all the time, you kind of have to pee pretty frequently, kind of moving around.

So, yep, yep. And, um, yeah, another thing is for anyone, if you are moving and you're drinking, you'll find that your body's actually able to loosen off better. Um, if you're sitting down and drinking lots of water, it'll kind of just sit in the gut, which makes you go to the toilet, which is movement, you know, it is a form of movement. But if you find if you can kind of combine the movement with the water, you'll find that you probably don't need to go to the toilet as much. And you get, you're getting the benefit of fascia moving, which is allowing the water to get in there and staying well hydrated, which is going to only help improve mental and sporting performance.

Yeah, well said. Talk to me about your first experience with Meflow heart rate training. How did that go and what were some of your takeaways there?

Ego got bruised big time. First run I went on, so I had the Garmin watch, I didn't have the heart rate strap around my chest, and I was running and I'm like, I think I was running around before this. I was running, you know, I used to run at a decent speed. I had no idea. And then I looked at it and I got down to a, I'll, I've got it down here, 7-minute K. And I think that's an 11:20 minute per mile, something like that. So it was, I was like, what is going on here? And I had people going past me. I even had an old woman say, oh, you're a young fit lad. You should be able to beat me. And that was, I was, I'll be honest with you. I had to bite my tongue. Um, but what I realized straight away, very similar to when I got sick, um, and sort of training with the movements, was that I felt refreshed after the run. What tended to happen was after the runs when I first started, I used to feel quite fatigued for the rest of the day. I needed to have naps. I need to do— but this one, I felt like I could have done it again quite easily. I was like, well, you know what, I'm going to give it— you know, I'm an all-or-nothing personality, I'll be honest. So I was like, I had a chat with one or two people and I think I reached out to yourself and I was like, right, I'm going to give myself 6 months, you know, 6 months to do this.

I like how you're at least thinking 6 months out and not like I want results by next week or next month kind of thing.

No, no, no. I learned, I was like, there's this, I don't know why, it just feels like sometimes, you know, the universe points you in a direction you just got to follow with. There was just something that kept on pulling me towards this. And I mean, I had looked at the Zone 2 stuff and I was like, I like it, but it just seems there's something off with it. I just didn't know what at the time. And yeah, I started doing it and in a very short amount of time, maybe being like maybe 2 months, I went from running a 7-minute K to running a 5-minute, which is around an 8-minute mile. So it was, it was pretty good. And it was the fact that I had got faster, my heart rate hadn't changed. I knew I was moving in the right direction. And luckily for me, we had hit winter. And, you know, you and I have spoke about this numerous times. I prefer running in the cold. I— the heat is not— it's not, it's not the greatest for me. So yeah, so it was like, I felt like I was really starting to open my legs out and it felt like I was, you know, running at decent speeds. Um, and I had my first, well, yeah, I had my half marathon and the aim for me was to run a sub-90-minute half marathon. That was the challenge. And my first one, um, I got 1:34 and that was a couple of mistakes that I had made, um, pre-race. Uh, don't drink too much coffee before race. And, um, yeah, I ended up hitting the 1:29. And yeah, I just felt— I just— it felt— the training felt really good. The only issue I had, which, um, we're all human, we all make mistakes, I think I tried to push it too much. And what I mean by that is, you know, Floris Gierman, I wanted to do a sub-3 I didn't want to even run it at 1:30. I was like, right, I'm just going to go for a full sub-3 in the first marathon.

Like, never ran a marathon.

Yeah, never ran a marathon. Had run, you know, two halves, I think. And I was like, right, I'm ready. And, um, yeah, the training load was just too much. And yeah, my Achilles said no. Uh, but yeah, it was the thing with the math, as I say, it was I felt during the training, there is no better feeling when you're running and you can see you're getting faster, but your heart rate's staying the same. The energy was improving. I was actually looking forward to running. You know, it was like, oh, can I go a little bit longer? You know, yes, I was running at a set plan, but I was like, oh, maybe I can do an extra 10, 15 minutes. It was just like, it was very enjoyable. And I just felt stronger. That was, that was the thing. And I just, from the whole aerobic standpoint, I just wish that I had known about this years ago, to be honest. But yeah, it was a very quick turnaround for me. But that was, I think that was due to me being kind of obsessed with lifestyle. I'm a huge fan of looking at trying to optimize myself, and I feel like the sleep aspect was good, my food was good, the amount of stress I had in my life was good. So I was able to adapt very quickly. And then just before my last race, I was able to jump down to a 4:30 minute K, which is a 7:15 mile. Yeah, I was still within my math, which was crazy to think because, you know, it was When I first started running, I never thought I would be able to run a 4:30 and be quite relaxed. But yeah, I was able to do that. And as we talked about, I actually had to slow down again and I had no problem this time. I understood the benefits behind it. Yeah, just to slow down even more so, just so I could get back to feeling more refreshed after running. And that's kind of what I've been doing now.

Well, and it has been fascinating to see because I think your quite well in tune with your body and then seeing indeed how to shave off several minutes per mile, per kilometer. But then yet indeed sometimes it is finding where's that boundary, and sometimes even there, even with this training approach and adding in some speed work at some point, there's still risk of overtraining or injuries if, if certain things don't line up or you get too excited. And I see that, I see that happen quite frequently as well. And this is also where we started talking sometimes about actually training at a lower intensity, even way further below MAF. What, what has your experience been with that?

Oh, it's been— honestly, I've, I've loved it, to be honest with you, because I was getting to that point, you know, when you're running a 4:30K, even though you're in MAF, it's still a stress on the body, you know. And my legs were sometimes feeling a little bit heavy after a session. From a cardio— cardio-wise, I felt great, but it was just Yeah, sometimes energy-wise, I just felt like I was a little bit off. So I was, but I obviously, I've got a 2-year-old son. So my sleep had dropped quite significantly as well. And I was like, well, if I can't change that, I can't change my 2-year-old, he's going to be a 2-year-old and there's nothing I can do. I was like, well, if I lower the intensity, and you know, after having a chat with yourself, I was like, let's just see what happens. And I introduced hills and trail running, um, because when I first started math, I used to just run on the— try to find the flattest places. Now in Wellington, that is quite difficult because Wellington is the hilliest place I've ever lived in my life. There's hills everywhere.

I've heard here— I've heard hills and I've heard wind as well, right?

Yeah, believe you— the wind is insane. I mean, I went for a run this morning in the I only know it was 100K winds. I don't know what that is in miles, but I mean—

Like 60K or 60 miles.

Yeah, that hits you in the face as well. You're not running fast. And it's Wellington's got that wind where no matter what direction you're going, it's always hitting you in the face. It never hits you from the back to push you forward. So there's always that resistance training there. But Yeah, it was, it was nice to actually do that because I mean, the more research I looked into and I spoke to yourself was, you know, trails are definitely easier on the body and allows you to explore the city a bit more. And, you know, I'm a huge fan of being out in nature, helps to reduce stress. There's a lot of studies that prove that. And it was nice knowing that I could walk, you know, for the first I felt like I was beginning the journey again, you know, I was having to walk up hills and during that time, you know, I went from struggling to stay at math, you know, I really had to stop quite a few times where now I'm running the same trails but now I'm able to run all the way through, my times are slowly starting to improve so it's, yeah, it felt good to kind of do that and and see how my body is benefiting. And right now, you know, there's my— because my max heart rate's 144 beats per minute, majority of my runs are in the 120s right now, you know. And, um, and I thought that might affect my speed, but, you know, it seems to be when it comes to my speed sessions, I'm now running faster than I ever have done. Um, and my heart rate's not too crazy. Um, and yeah, it's just— yeah, I, I think, I think it's been, it's been very refreshing and very rewarding, especially just with the stresses that have been going on recently, to see the body and the training moving in the right direction.

Yeah, and I also think that training volume does have something to do with it as well. Like, when, when you're an athlete and you're training 2, 3 times a week, yes, probably training, like, kind of depends on training volume and like MAF pace as well, probably. Like, when you're first starting out, even to run in your MAF zone is already very, like, slow typically, or you have to slow down significantly. And then as you improve aerobically and you start adding in some training volume, yeah, then, then it's nice to, to lower that a little bit. And I think, like you said, on the trails, it is— you're totally mixing up that pace a little bit too. Like, yeah, sometimes on the downhill you can let it go, And even at that point, your heart rate doesn't necessarily go up that much. But then on the uphill, like, yeah, you take the walk breaks or you just look around and enjoy. Like, yeah, it's, it's a nice thing to mix things up for sure.

So, well, and I think you hit the nail on the head. I think when it came to me running, I never really took notice of my scenery, you know. It was like, I need to get the point A to point B as fast as I can. Now, you know, if you go on my Strava, I've got photos of the scenery, I appreciate it so much more. And yeah, it's just, it's way more enjoyable. You know, instead of, you know, I used to run with music. I don't run with music at half as much as what I used to. And it's, yeah, it's, yeah, definitely think if you're new into running, you know, if you can get into the trails, I would highly recommend this to anyone and everyone.

Yeah, I think, I think there's this weird, like sometimes people are a little bit intimidated by the trails almost, I think. And I almost feel like just go out there on a, on a short hike on a familiar trail and from there on start jogging a little bit. And I think just a few of these things like having some proper trail footwear so you have enough gripping, making sure you bring some water in case you go a little bit longer and maybe bring a friend. And then from there on, like you start noticing how much fun trail running can really be.

Crazy. And I'm just, to be honest, I'll be honest, when it comes to my training, I'm looking at my elevation gains right now. I love seeing that number get up as high as I can. And it's just, I feel like it's helping though with my training. You know, as we've talked, it's strength training going uphill, doesn't matter how fast or how slow, that walking up an incline is going to get your glutes activated, it's going to strengthen the quads, strengthen the calf muscles, everything that a runner needs. To get faster. And then when you're running down, that's going to be improving your stride frequency, maybe your stride length as well. So there's a reason why the top athletes tend to spend time on trails, and if you want to improve your performance, I've mentioned before, get into the nature and you'll see the benefits from it pretty much straight away.

Yeah, for sure. Talk to me a little bit more, like, so there's different people who experience progress in their low heart rate journey. Some people start progressing rather quickly, like yourself. There's also people who might not progress for, let's say, 3 months, 4 months, 5 months, or they might start getting frustrated. Like, based on your experience, do you have any suggestions there, any high-level thoughts on how to go about that?

Um, yeah, I mean, I actually now I'm training others to run at this, so I'm starting to experience a couple of these issues. First thing is, let's just look at your lifestyle. You know, let's just stress— stress is a hard one to measure because it's all— it's very— it's personalized. It's— some people have a high resilience to stress, some people don't. I can tell you right now, the amount of stress that we're going through today is probably higher than it's ever been. It's—

there's—

we're constantly bombarded with stress. And just because you're used to that level, doesn't mean it's healthy for you. So usually, first thing is I'll start looking at if there's any areas of opportunities for some changes. Sleep, a huge, another big factor, you know, we don't sleep as much as we used to, you know, you ask a lot of adults, do you have a bedtime routine? And they'll be like, what are you talking about? It's like, yeah, well, we do it for kids to help them sleep. Why don't we do it to ourselves? So sleep would be another thing. Also nutrition, You know, what do you eat before you go into bed? Are you eating a tub of ice cream before you go to sleep? I know over the weekend I had something a little bit sweeter before running. The following day I felt awful. I just know what you're eating before you go into bed or even during the day, that's going to cause, you know, potentially chronic inflammation. The environment that you're in, you know, you're watching news, the news a lot, you know, I mean, unfortunately, there's a lot of bad things that are happening in the world. And yeah, even though we're watching it, it still has a huge part of our subconscious. So, you know, not being ignoring the world, but just being away, but not having to watch it day in, day out. What else would I say? The type of training that you're doing. So are you going to the gym, you know, 5 days a week lifting, doing classes or high-intensity sessions and then trying to run on top of that? And you know, that's the, the types of running that you do, because you've talked about this before. I, I see it a lot with clients when it comes to the Strava. I'll have a look at the heart rate and the average heart rate's within that, but you look at the heart rate per K and it's way higher than it should be. And they were like, well, it was average. And I was like, well, no, it's— the whole thing is you never want it over at all, the whole thing. And they're like, oh, well, you know, I just— and I'm like, that's cool, you know, you can do that. And, you know, we talk once a week or something like that. If you're still base building, if you just want to have like let go, as you talked about with me over the weekend, um, that's cool. But when you're doing it every run, yeah, it comes to affect your overall performance. So yeah, so there's a, there's a lot of different factors that kind of going into performance and, um I think they often get overlooked. They're very basic, but they are so important.

I think the stress management that you talked about earlier is so spot on because as much as I am aware of it as well, and I know it about myself, you actually helped me tremendously even like 6 months ago, over the past 6 months, like holding a mirror in front of me where I'm the one talking about, oh yeah, keeping stress levels low and whatnot. Yet I was pushing it pretty hard on a lot of different fronts between PATH projects, between launching the new Personal Best program with a ton of work that went into that, with the family, with like a bunch of different things. And so you and I would be checking in and sometimes we would recap like how each other's week was going and you would actually tell me, and I'm very thankful for this, like, yes, there's a time, just like in training, there's a time to train. You kind of like train towards a race and then at that point you almost have to step back and recover a little bit. And that's the same with life too. And I thought actually Rich Roll was recently talking about this point as well and it was right in line with what you and I had talked about and I was so thankful. Like maybe you could share some additional thoughts there.

Yeah, no, and I mean, it's unfortunately in life, life kind of just goes on. That doesn't stop.. And we kind of just think, right, well, this is a stressful event happened, then we just move on. The body needs time to recover. It's like anything, it's like anything, it's— and we just kind of think that we've dealt with it where the body may hold on to stuff, you know, this could be traumas from years and years ago, this can be just something, you know, it could be a financial stress, it could be whatever. There are so many different forms of stress. When you start looking at them, you're like, wow, actually, I am just a big ball of stress. And if— and as I said, as the clients as well, the most important part of the training for me is when I write training plans is the rest and recovery or active recovery days. That's the most important part, because that's when the body's absorbing the training and you're getting the benefits. Now, if you're putting that into your day-to-day life, when are you doing that over the weekend? No, I mean, sorry, over the week, are you doing that at the weekend? Likelihood is probably not. You know, a lot of people tend to go out, try and do a multitude of different things, and they're not allowing the body to fully kind of break down what's gone on and just take a step back to be like, actually, you know what, I've done some pretty amazing things over the last couple of weeks. And I mean, I can reference yourself, you know, Floris Gierman, I think the videos that you've done, I cannot remember the number, was it 90 or 95 new videos? 95 videos in that program. That's insane.. And it's like the body will need time to adjust and just get back to that homeostasis, back to kind of just being neutral. And when you do that, and it's, you'll find that your body will appreciate it so much more. And when it appreciates it, that's when it adapts to in a positive way. I mentioned that, I'll mention this in a different way. You tend to be in two states. Either catabolic, which means the body's breaking down, or you're anabolic, which means the body's growing and getting stronger. If your lifestyle is promoting more of that catabolic life, then you're literally on a slow road to illness and underperformance and just not being great. And if you're anabolic, that is more success in yourself, in your relationships, and every other aspect of your life.. But the key is, is that then rest times and giving yourself a set times, make it the most important part of your week. For me is, you know, spending time with my family. That's, I find that is, that rejuvenates me going for just a walk, communicating, you know, so, you know, having phone calls. And, you know, if I need to sit down and watch a TV program, so be it. But yeah, the key The key is making sure you are including this on a regular occurrence. I mean, the TV thing you don't have to do, but I do like to watch it. It's my guilty pleasure. But yeah, it's— and then also addressing the root causes of things as well. So if there's something that's bothering you, you know, don't try and ignore it because the likelihood is the body's holding on to it. And yet again, that's another internal stress as well. So Yeah, there's— that's a whole— that can go quite far. Oh no, conversations.

Yeah, for sure. It's, it's, it sounds cliché, but my mom was always saying back in the day, like, yeah, you have a rubber band and like you don't want to have that stretch too long. Like you want to let, like, let that go back for a little bit or it's not stretching anymore. So yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. Yeah. Um, I know you're a fan of the knees over toe guys and backwards walking and backwards running. Tell me a little bit more because I know you do this quite frequently. You told me to do this and my, my ass was absolutely on fire. Like, I've been doing it a little bit here and there already and then like truly starting to do it a bit more consistent and even on a jogging, because obviously like you have to be careful with how you ease into it and whatnot.

But tell me a bit more there. Yeah, well, I mean, it was a lot of my clients were complaining about knee pain. That's why they came and saw me at the first first place, or be ankle pain or back pain. There was always a pain, it was dysfunction. Yeah. And it was, you know, I was very— I was on along the lines, you know, you got to move your body correctly and things like that. And it was all fine and well when the clients were with me, but it was when they weren't seeing me, that was when issues were happening. And I just stumbled across this one day, it was knees or toe, there was a guy doing this crazy exercise. And I'm like, you know what, I'm going to give that a shot. And I did, and I was nowhere near the level that I thought I was. And I was like, all right, maybe I need to start looking into this a bit more. And I started researching. I'm a huge fan of researching about this stuff. And I reached out to Ben as well. And I was like, right, let's just get into this. And in particular, why I liked it was He mentioned the same sort of things as I've talked about before, like sports and movements tend to be very predictable, very structural, where life is very freestyle, it's all over the place. And he's like, we tend to spend all of our time going forward, you know, how much time do you spend going backwards? And, you know, if you think about how much time you spent running forwards in comparison to running backwards, huge difference. And. And the muscles that recruits as well, you know, it's the different muscles that work, you know. And I found I started doing the backwards walking and then running, and then I'm pulling the sled now. My quads were burning so much. It was like, I was, it wasn't my bum, it was my, it was actually my quads and my calves. It was like, they were the two areas that was just like, what is going on here?

And then it's everything.

It's indeed the knees, the calves, the like Yeah. And yeah, and it was just, as I started doing it, I was like, you know what, it makes sense. You know, we think our quads are strong. But a tight muscle tends to be a weak muscle. And this is the whole perspective behind it. You know, if you feel like a muscle, when a muscle lengthens, it tends to strengthen. So, you know, if you're holding the bicep, I mean, if you're holding the weight and your arm's going down, as the weight's going down, that's when it's getting stronger. It's not getting stronger when you're pulling up. That's improving speed and power. But that's the strength aspect. So all these attributes are sort of looking at now, it's like, you know what, this really makes sense. And then in particular, he's got a split squat, the ATG split squat or the lunge. And this is kind of— the squat is the holy grail of exercises. If you can squat, you know, you tend to be really— you are doing well in life. And a lot of people can't squat. And they try and force themselves into the squat position, which is just hurting their joints and everything else. And it just doesn't make sense the way that we look at that. And what he's made is an exercise that you can analyze your hip flexor, your ankle, your knee, where it takes the pain away. And the aim is that you try and progress to a point that you can do this full exercise. And then the aim is to add weights onto this as well. And not only are you improving strength, improving flexibility, improving the strength of the tendons and ligaments. And, you know, running is a one— really a one-legged sport, you know, you tend to jump from one leg to another. And if you've got a deficiency in one side, then that causes the body to change how it moves. So you tend to compensate, put one side more pressure, eventually that starts to struggle, you try to go on to the other side, the other side can't perform, that's an injury waiting to happen. And yeah, so it's just all these different aspects. He looks at calf muscles and like, I mean, you look at the amount of calf tears or Achilles issues, you look at runner's knee, you know, you look at tight hips, lower back. These are all injuries that are common within runners. And I was like, you know, fair play to this guy. And yet again, you know, he comes from a strength and conditioning background, he's had chronic pain, and now he If you've seen his videos and the way he moves, it's just insane.

Yeah. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Like for me, so probably about 2 years ago, I actually made a few videos about it in one of our first training programs about like not just warming up, but even recovery of backwards jogging and slowly doing it for just a short period of time. But after you and I spoke a bit more, it was also about actually doing it for a little bit longer periods of time. And sometimes on my recovery days, what I do now is I go to the local soccer field and I actually take off my shoes and I do it barefoot over there. And so what I would typically do is I would do it next to a line, like one of the lines, because sometimes it's a little bit tricky once you start running backwards. You're like, oh, is there anything I'm going to run into? And you're constantly looking over your shoulder. Whereas if I do it at 6 o'clock in the morning or 5:30 when the sun is just coming up and I'm solo, barefoot on a grass field, it's actually a nice way to do it. And how I started out was just doing like a half soccer field, like walking back, and then half soccer field, like slowly jogging, and then forward. I would do it the other way around and like, oh, like kind of jogging, or sometimes at the beginning doing that a few times. And then over time I started noticing I could pick up the intensity a little bit. And recently I started noticing I was doing like sub-7-minute miles actually jogging a full soccer field backwards. And it's like you come back and you do that 8 times or 10 times, you feel like you really had a proper, proper, proper workout.

[Speaker] Yeah, it's amazing. And I mean, the great thing, what you mentioned there, being barefoot as well, what that's gonna do, it's gonna help to strengthen not the foundations of your feet, you know, we tend to, I mean, the shoes that we wear, there's arguments whether the shoes that you should be wearing, But it's what you're doing there is the perfect way to offset it, you know, you're strengthening the feet, you're getting stimulation in the foot. I mean, like right now, I'm wearing some sandals, and they've got the spikes on them. I don't know if you can see that, but they've got the spikes. So my feet are constantly stimulated. If they're stimulated, it means my arches are working, so my knees don't drop in, causes issues. So that's fantastic that you're doing that. And then the fact that you're making it faster, that's a form of plyometrics training, you know, it's, but it's not to the point it's super super intense. So what you're doing there is, you know, probably originally that area of running for you would have been a deficiency because you weren't used to doing it. But now you're starting to slowly add more and more into it by changing the speed, and your body's able to adapt, which it's just going to allow you to run faster when it comes to running forwards as well.

Yeah. How would you start adding strength, or like, how would you start adding like a sled or something pulling? Like, I know you've, you've talked about like the the treadmill that you can do it backwards without an engine, but how would you, what is an easy way to do it? Is it like putting a sled out there and loading your kids on the sled and walking that backwards on the grass field?

I mean, you can get very creative here. You can, one, if you are, I mean, if there's any pain, I'm gonna say this, if there's any pain, then reduce the load. So it should just be walking back. But one, you can speed up. Second thing, you can kind of run uphill backwards, you know, so it's— so you've got that in the intensity. Now don't go for a crazy steep hill either. Another thing can be adding the resistance. So you can wear— there's ankle weights that you can put on and you can wear them, and that's going to add a bit more resistance if you— if let's just say you don't have other people around. Another one can be you can get like an exercise band where you can see people do pull-ups. You can literally have someone, if you've got like someone to help you, they hold on to the front and then you've got to try and drag them back and they'll go forward and then you can, one can go first and the other one can go so you can have a bit of a rest in between. Other ways you can do it would be, yeah, obviously with the sled. I know some people do it with the car, they take the handbrakes off the car and they're just walking back, which is just insane.

I wouldn't recommend doing that.— That's some World's Strongest Man kind of shit, man.—

That's what I mean. It gets pretty crazy. And it's, yeah, it's basically just seeing what you've got. But I mean, the most basic one, as I mentioned, is walk backwards first, then slowly start to increase it. And you mentioned the treadmill as well. You know, you just don't turn the treadmill on, and your challenge is to get that treadmill, go backwards on the treadmill and hold on to the sides. And you try to forcibly get that belt moving, just pushing your legs, and that will destroy you. It destroys areas, but at the same time, it's not super duper intense.

It's just literally showing you where your weaknesses are. Yeah, so start very slow and gradual with those and ease into it indeed. Yeah, let's talk for a bit about epigenetic profile testing because you have absolutely taken a deep dive in that field as well. And obviously there's a lot of changes have happened in the last several years, a lot of innovations happening in that field right now. Can you share a little bit more about how you apply epigenetic profile testing really to optimize your, your wellness?

So if anyone who doesn't know epigenetics, it just means how your genes express in different environments. We are all different. So what works for me doesn't mean it's going to work for you. And that's the biggest issue I feel in the health and fitness world. You see all these influencers saying, do this, you know, get up at 5 o'clock in the morning and meditate. Yeah, that works for a lot of people. I mean, I know it'll be great for me if I did that, but I also know, for example, of my mother-in-law, getting up at that time would be the worst thing for her. And the reason why I know that is through the epigenetic profiling. So we're not all designed to wake up at the same time. There are some people who are designed to be morning people, there are some people designed to be more late in the evening. And then it connects into food as well and lifestyle and kind of how we process certain emotions and kind of the people who we want to be around. You know, I'm known as an ectomorph. So there's 3 body types. There's the ectomorph, which in Floris Gierman, which tends to be, we tend to be quite lean, better at endurance events, quite tight through our spines. There's a whole different characteristics as a whole. And as you go through them, you're like, wow, this person's really got me. And then there's the kind of the mesomorph, and they're more of the, I would say, the fitness magazine types, where all the muscles look fantastic and just do everything kind of like a CrossFitter. And then you've got the endomorph, which is more of the powerlifter, you know, they tend to be bigger, just strong. And depending on what body type you are, you will have certain characteristics that you want to be focusing on to help optimize yourself. And this kind of gives you a profile of the best times for you to eat, what foods that you want to be eating, what foods you want to be staying away from, and most importantly, why. So if you want to know the why and the science behind it, there is that there. Like best times for you to exercise, best times for you to chill out. Also, the, as I mentioned, the people you want to be kind of steering clear of, or people you want to be socializing with. And it just allows you to understand why you work the way you do. And for people who have just constantly just grinding and pushing and kind of not really listening to their body, that's a really good way to be like, well, maybe if I do one or two of these things, I'm able to push performance that little bit more, if that's what it is. Or if it's someone who's wanting to improve their health, it gives them a kind of guidelines of what they want to be doing and why they want to be doing it. But yeah, it's now got to the point— I mean, you and I have experienced, Floris, when it comes to particular protein, we had a— we— protein— I won't go into too much detail. Let's just say our bodies don't react very well to when we eat a higher protein diet. But Right now, protein is the buzzword. You know, it's— you've got to get protein, protein, protein, protein. I know I can eat a decent level of protein, so around 15% or 15-20% of my calorie intake can be protein. If it goes above that, then I tend to have not too great side effects, let's just say. You become a fart machine. I said it. To be around. And my partner is like, you need to stay away from me. So yeah, it's just knowing them little things. And I'm not trying to say live perfect. There's no such thing as perfect in my eyes. If anything, it's just the word is just a disaster. It wouldn't happen. But making sure that majority of the time you're pushing yourself in the right direction. And able to feel better. You know, for me, there is no better feeling when you wake up first thing in the morning and you have energy. You know, there is nothing worse than when you wake up and you're like, oh God, I've got another day ahead of me. And I mean, it just doesn't make sense. You know, we're designed to feel good during the day and then rest in the evening. So yeah, so it's it goes into a lot of detail. It can be quite overwhelming, and the whole purpose for me is to try and help you make sense of this and kind of create a plan that you can follow and try and use that information to optimize yourself.

Yeah, it was, it was incredibly eye-opening for me. Like, about a year ago, you sent me one of the questionnaires, very detailed questionnaires to fill out, which I did. And afterwards, you came back to me with like, all right, here's what your energy levels are like. This is this is the optimal time to wake up and perform and all of these. I'm like, holy shit, this guy knows more about me than I know about myself. But it's so spot on. Like, it was really interesting. And I'm the type where I'm often trying to optimize energy levels as well. And like you said, you and I both, we wake up rather early, have a good amount of energy, but then at some point, like, yes, you try to get like I try to get like some of the deeper work, harder work done in the morning and then do some more of the follow-up stuff or email catch-up or phone calls or meetings a little bit in the later stages of the day. And like just like having open discussions about that and even the power of taking, for example, a nap for me at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, taking like a 20-minute nap, it feels like a million bucks again. And it's almost like the second part of the day, it just became like your morning all over again from an energy level. And I think those things and like timing, timing nutrition and timing the type of nutrition and yeah, workouts and whatnot, like it's been fascinating. So if, if people would want to figure out more about that, how can they go about this?

What would be one way to, uh, I guess the simple way would be getting in touch with myself. Um, yeah, because we can, we can do these tests. And as I say, I mean, I'm in New Zealand, obviously, Floris Gierman in America, so it doesn't have to be in the same country. It can be done, like I said, through Zoom calls or Skype or whatever. And yeah, I can, I kind of spend what you just said that I spend my mornings doing my more brain work. And then in the afternoon, I do more of my movement work. So usually, as I would try and get clients in the morning and then in the afternoon I would work with clients in the afternoon. But yeah, get in touch if you're interested in knowing more. I'm more than happy to point you in the right direction. And yeah, just as I said, just anyone who's going to be looking to do this, just go with an open mind. And because it's, it can be quite confronting for a lot of people, you know, it's just like no one likes to know that they might have been doing something that's could be hurting them or is not ideal for them. So know that it's coming from a good place. And yeah, if you follow it, let's say I've had some amazing results for people who follow it.

So, and I've changed my lifestyle based on the results that were given to me. Yeah, absolutely. Good. Well said. So over the last 18 months, you've really been on this, this training journey of experimenting a lot with with heart rate training, with racing. For you, what were, like, if you would have to give any recommendations to other people looking to get into this type of training, like, do you have any high-level thoughts over here for other athletes who truly want to improve their performance and their overall health?

Um, yeah, first one is definitely, uh, look at this, look at your stress in your life. That would be the first most important aspect. Trust the plan. It's— sometimes it can be difficult, you know, when you, you feel like you're not seeing progress or things like that. But just know that you're— every time you're doing something like this, you're pushing your body to be more optimal, and it's, it's helping to iron out the creases that maybe in your previous lifestyle might have been affecting your performance. And give yourself enough time to be within building that base. The base is, you know, I don't care, all the best athletes, all the best sports teams, if you look back, it's always about the fundamentals. It's the common theme. If you look back, the team with the most solid fundamentals tend to be the teams that perform best when it comes to under pressure, or whatever. So always look at them foundations. And the best way to build your foundations is do base training. If you're going to plan for races, I like to think of more, more than 2 or 3 races a year. Also make sure that you are incorporating movement work. So move work or mobility training, just different types of movement patterns, trying to move your body in as many different directions as, as designed, because that's what we're naturally designed to do. We aren't designed to do one thing only. And seek advice, you know, like, don't feel like you've got to do it yourself. You know, the greatest thing I ever did was reach out to Floris. And, you know, occasionally, even though I know what I know now, I will still go to Floris straight away when it comes to something that I'm not sure of. I still have mentors about strength work and things like that. I don't pretend that I know it all myself. I don't try and take it on myself. You learn more from doing that. And yeah, it'll only come to benefit you. And yeah, if you can, with COVID kind of starting to reduce now, or I don't know where, I know in New Zealand, we're very fortunate. But if you can run with people, you know, if you can like connect with people, have a group, keep yourself accountable.

Yeah, I'll probably say they're the kind of main foundations of the program that I would look at. Yeah, spot on. It's really nice to start, like, to start seeing more races happening again. I was at my first race, like, when was it, 2 weeks ago in Arizona, and there was Cocodona, like a 250-mile race, and just seeing people excited again to race and to be together. And, and yes, it was still in a relative small capacity, but, and I know that it's been different in all parts of the world. But yeah, like running with some other people, like, can, can be such a motivating factor. And I think you, you hit it right there as well. I think it's spot on to surround yourself with some other people too, whether it's mentors or a running group or whatnot, like just so you're not at it alone. You have some accountability and, and you can really learn from each other. I'm, I'm, I'm reading a lot too, and I'm surrounding myself with a lot of other people. We're all learning from each other, and I think that's, that's such a great way of going about it.

So yeah, that's definitely been the best, biggest thing that I've taken away. And as I say, I probably wouldn't have stuck to math training if I hadn't been, you know, for yourself and a couple others, just to make sure, just keep on going. I mean, you've seen the results, you know, you've been very fortunate. And, you know, I was thinking, well, where do I go from here? And when you said slow the heart rate down, as it's been probably I've probably enjoyed running more now than what I did when I was feeling like, oh, I don't know if I can push it any further. I don't know if I can get any faster. It's now I found a whole new level and it's like, well, well, what can I do?

You know, maybe I can push this a bit further. Yeah, no, absolutely. What, what are some of your upcoming training or racing goals?

Do you have anything in the short or long, long horizon? Um, oh, I am, I'm extremely ambitious, everyone. So, um, my, my first aim was to run a sub-90-minute half. I've done that. I've got a race in 5 weeks, um, and the aim is to go in between a— in between 85 minutes. I would say if I can get 85 minutes for the half marathon, I'll be stoked with that. I'll be really happy. And then at the end of the year I've got a race and unfortunately I picked the worst events to do. I don't pick events that benefit me. Um, they're quite hilly events, um, but I've got a half marathon and the aim is to go sub, like, either 80 minutes or under 80 minutes. And then for 2022, I'm going back to the full. I'm taking on the full and I want to do a full under 3. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it straight away, but I feel like I've built enough now of being able to run pretty much every day that I can handle the training now. My body's better equipped.

So yeah, there's some big goals. But yeah. No, I'm absolutely convinced that you can reach those goals and that you can run sub-3. It is indeed one of those that when aiming for a massive goal like that, it's like, do you either go right away for like a big race like that? Or do you go out there, experience what it's like to run 42K, 26 miles, just to see how the body reacts after 32K or 20 miles? Because that's often that spot, right, where people are like, yeah, you can only train for that to certain degrees. And sometimes even the more you race or the more race experience you get, the, the more confident you go into one of these races. At the other hand, sometimes even going into it innocent and just going in there with high level and doing the best training you can, like, you might blow yourself out of the water too.

And like, so it's, it's kind of exciting. Yeah, no, I'm definitely more— the more races I've done, the more confident I feel because before race, my heart rate for one of the races was insane. I could not believe it. I was standing there, my heart rate was like 160 beats. I was, I was like, what is going on here? And, um, I remember our aim, we had a race plan and my heart rate was well above what it should have been to begin with, but then as soon as kind of the race started, it dropped. But yeah, it was the more you get used to that and, you know, breathing techniques and just knowing the plan and following the plan a couple of times is going to help. And I'm giving myself the whole of 2020 to do a sub-3, so I might have to do one or two races beforehand. But yeah, I'm definitely of the notion, do it a couple of times so you know what you're doing. And you know, fail forward. Failing is the best thing and for me has been the most valuable lessons in my life. You know, every time I failed at something, it's— I don't even say failing, it's just been a learning experience. It's not what to do or what not to do for next time. So yeah. I'm not defined by the times, but it would be nice to have them to give myself a pat on the back.

Exactly, exactly. I actually, every time I look on your Instagram, especially now even on the Strava, I see all these nice photos from New Zealand and it makes me even like— I still have never been. I lived in Australia for almost a year and never made it to New Zealand. I'm like, I really look forward to that day to go trail running with Ben over there.

So that would be a fun one. Oh, I tell you what, you will enjoy it and I mean, I'm an adopted Kiwi. I'll be getting my citizenship next year for sure. The one great thing is it's a very welcoming community here. Yeah, I'm running now with groups of people who, from all different walks of life. And yeah, there are some pretty spectacular views, but just know, just be prepared for that wind.

It is insane. Good, good, good.

Where can people find out more about you? Yeah, so I'm on Instagram, just type in my name, Ben Adusei. I'm on Facebook as well, and I'm currently trying to start with some encouragement from Floris, my own YouTube. I'm trying to document kind of my running journey and trying to help others. So yet again, just type in my name and that will pop up on YouTube as well, and you can have a good giggle. At the videos that I'm doing. But yeah, if you want to get in touch with me, there's an email as well, which I'm sure Floris can give you, and get in touch.

Yeah, good. No, many different YouTube videos being uploaded already, and it's really good to see several of the videos on there, and I'll absolutely make sure to link to that all below in the show notes. Good stuff, Ben. Thank you so much for sharing.

And yeah, look forward to connecting sooner than later again.

So take care and yeah, look after yourself, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. We tend to go on for hours when Ben and I speak, but we wanted to keep it somewhat condensed over here. If you would like to find out more information or like the contact information for Ben or his different social channels, check below this video or this podcast, or go to extramileus.com/46. That is the number 46, and you can find all of the different show notes over there. Also, if you'd like to find out more about the Personal Best Program, check out pbprogram.com. All right, we'll see you at the next podcast. Again, have fun out there on your runs. Later.