#48: Achieve Your Goals, with Sally McRae

And I am absolutely miserable in that picture. What I'm feeling inside is so miserable. And I remember, um, Eddie's driving next to me as he got that shot, and he yells out to me, he's like, Sally, can you believe the sunset right now? Can you look at the mountains, the sky? This is incredible. And I remember just looking over at him, I'm like, yeah, it's so amazing. But then like I look back and I remember my, my eyes filling up with tears because I'm just like, this is Yeah, but this is it. Like, I chose to do all this hard running with the— this— I want to do this race, I want to do it well. I put myself into this uncomfortable situation, and there is beauty all around me that I can't ignore. It goes to show the power in how we respond to life. We all hit storms in our life, and no one can climb inside of us and feel what we feel, whether it's that ache or that discomfort, that, you know, that loss. But our response to it all is so powerful. It's so powerful what we put out. In fact, it is what propels us to do harder things in the future.

Hello, hello! Welcome to another episode of The Extra Mileage Show. My name is Floris Gierman, and on this podcast I talk with different guests about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. And today I'm sitting down with Sally McRae. She's an incredible human being. She's freaking hilarious. She's also a professional runner, both in the trail and ultra distances. She recently won the Badwater 135. This is a 135-mile race that we'll take a deep dive into her performance over there. She's a mother of two, she's a coach, she has her own fitness app, and she wears many different hats. And one part that I'm very excited about that we're talking in detail in this conversation is the power of the mind and mindsets and setting yourself up for success in the short term and in the long term. We also talk about strength training because Sally is a strength and conditioning coach as well. She has developed many of her own different workouts, and so we will talk through some of that. A lot of great topics, and I really enjoyed this conversation. This episode is brought to you by PATH Projects running apparel. Recently, PATH Projects won Runner's World Gear of the Year award again for the second time, and this time it was for the Pyrenees hooded running shirt. It is a shirt that I wear daily as well, before, during, and also after my workouts. And although the gear is developed based on a men's body type, many women actually run in the gear as well. For example, a men's extra small shirt is a women's size medium shirt. Full disclosure, I'm one of the owners of this company, but that being said, it really is the only running clothing that I wear. You can find out more at pathprojects.com. Without further I hope you enjoy my conversation with Sally McRae. Let's do this, Sally. Hello, welcome to the Extra Mileage Show. I'm very glad you're here finally.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I mean, this is a huge honor to be on your show. As I've told you, I've been listening to you on my long runs for many years. So to be able to do this face to face with you is a huge honor.

Yeah, I'm glad you could actually come to the home studio over here and we can record in person instead of over like the Zoom and do all that.

I know. Yeah, I feel like with COVID I was constantly doing stuff just on Zoom. And so knowing that you and I are both in Orange County, I was like, no, we are doing this in person.

So perfect, perfect. So there's a lot of different topics that I want to dive into. One part, like, we're going to dive into bathwater, we're going to dive into strength training, your, your mindset, which I think is incredible. But before we do, I think it would be really good to talk briefly about your background as an athlete in running, just for the people who are like getting to know you or who might not know your full story. Story. Like, how did you get into running, and when did you know that running really was one of the things you want to get quite serious about?

Gosh, that's— it's kind of a loaded question because running has always been a part of my life in, in some way. It hasn't always been the focus, but it has always been either something that I did because I, I've always loved it since the time I was a little girl. For whatever reason, there is a park at the end of our street, and I, I would run circles. Like, that was fun for me. Um, but at the time too, I was, I was also interested I was in gymnastics, I was playing soccer. So running was always a supplement to training, you know, getting fitter. And I think when I was in elementary school, one of the things that I knew about myself was that I was faster than all the boys. And that was really fun for me, whether we were playing tag or it was in PE, no one could catch me. So I've always had speed and I thought that was fun. I thought it was fun to be fast. And I really took on to soccer. Like, that was what I loved— the team aspect. I loved chasing after a ball. And then when I was about 12, 13, that's when women's soccer really took off in the United States. I'm sure you remember Brandi Chastain, Michelle Akers. They were my heroes, and I wanted to follow in their footsteps. So I knew at a really young age I wanted to be a professional athlete, but I never thought that I would be a professional runner.

So how did you then transition from that type of running, eventually you started running more and more and the distances started becoming longer and longer too.

Yeah.

How, how did that transition happen?

Yeah. So, you know, when I was in college, I obviously we train a little bit harder in, in college, you know, you're doing 2 days. It's pretty common on the weekend, you're going out for 2 or 3 miles of running in, in your training. Then you come back and do ball work and stuff like that. So I think soccer players naturally have, built up endurance over time. So being able to get out on the field and play for 90 minutes, that's, that's pretty good endurance. So I think in all my years of training, the endurance part was there. And when I graduated from college, you know, I— my, my life really took a turn when I was 17. I lost my mom, um, and with that, the dream of becoming a soccer player really just flipped around, like my whole view of the world and just the dreams I had for myself. I didn't know how valuable they were anymore. I didn't know if they meaning in my life anymore. And one of the most important things that was probably pivotal in my life that has changed a lot of just even how I think and approach anything is that, you know, when my mom was 4 weeks from dying, you know, she said to me, "Don't be upset that I'm leaving," which I think is so powerful as a mother for anyone to say that. You know, she wanted nothing more than to be there and watch us grow up and get married and all these things that parents dream about. But for her, what was so important was that I knew that life needed to still go on, that I could either turn bitter and upset and not pursue who I'm supposed to be and my dreams. But for her, she said, "Don't stop doing the things that you love. Don't stop going after dreams. Keep shining." Like, those were her most precious words to me. Now, being 17, a lot of those things, it was hard for me to really cling on to.

Especially in that moment when you were like—

In that moment, yeah. It wasn't like then I was happy and then I was strong. Life actually got really bad after she passed away. And, you know, I always call it my year of hell where I lost a lot. I came from a family of 7, and by the time I was 18, I was all by myself at my house. So I think that, you know, the idea of going from soccer as, yes, I'm going to be a professional athlete, this is how my life is going to be, I'm going to go after this dream, to why do I even play sport? Like, why am I even doing this any, anyway? There's so much hurt and pain in my life. Well, the college that I went to, I learned a lot about myself while I was there. And for whatever reason, I had a little tiny bit of hope that I'm supposed to be playing soccer. So I played throughout college. It wasn't the college I wanted to go to, but I continued to play. And what was really neat is every single summer I'd sign up for these trips and they're like humanitarian trips. So we would go to different countries all over the world and we would do things like we would build houses, we work in orphanages, images and prisons and things like that. But wherever I went in the world, um, people played soccer, and it was the best way to connect, right? Soccer was so powerful. I mean, if I walked out into a city park somewhere with a ball, there were people there that wanted to play, or I would just walk up to a game and I would be able to jump in. And that changed my life. It changed the way that I looked at sport. And sport was no longer, you know, I want to be on the COVID of a magazine, I want to be known for playing soccer. But it's like, Oh, it's so amazing. Like, I can— I don't, I don't speak this person's language, but like on the soccer field I do.

It's a shared passion.

Yes. Yeah. So I think, you know, fast forward to when I'm, I'm at the, you know, I guess like the beginning of ultra running for me. What really pulled me into that was just curiosity. I was like, wow, it's amazing people can run 100 miles. I'm going to try it. And that's just kind of how I was growing up. I was very curious. When I decided, wow, I— this is something I want to pursue as a career, I love this, I, I actually am good at it, um, I didn't forget the words that my mom had said to me and, and how I felt about sport. In fact, when Nike had reached out to me, I was first very hesitant because in my mind I thought, oh my gosh, it's like one of the biggest brands in the world. And one, I don't know if I deserve— that's what I thought right away. I don't deserve to be a professional athlete, let alone with a company like this. But man, all eyes are going to be on me. I don't know what to do at all with this. So my Instagram account that I created, Yellow Runner, is a tribute to that. It's a tribute of remembering that, you know, in all that we do, we should live a life that shines, that we should do it for something far greater than a than a medal or a trophy, knowing that, um, we have the ability to use whatever it is we're passionate about to reach people. And that's what makes things fulfilling. And so that's really what I wanted for my running. Um, I think, you know, when you're young and you watch someone that you love so much pass away, you realize that all the tangible things that remind you of them mean nothing in comparison to what that person meant to you, what they did, how they impacted your life, the marks that they leave on your heart. Like, That's so much more powerful, the way that someone makes you feel, you know? And I think that I've always longed to have that in my life too. My mom left such an impact on my life. I'm like, I want to be like that. I want to be someone that, um, that leaves a mark on the world that is so much more than just a tangible, you know, it's, it's fun to win races. Don't get me wrong. I love doing that. It's fun to do great things athletically, but, um, you know, to be able to run as, as a way to, uh, meet other people. And to connect is, is really a gift. Wow. So yeah, that is powerful.

And then like to have that happen at age 17 and then going through these low points and then through high points and getting offered a contract by Nike, obviously like massive changes along the way and then also becoming a mother.

Yes.

Raising your daughter.

Yeah. And son. Yeah.

And son.

Yeah.

And running your own business and training like a full-time athlete. How do you go about combining all this? Like, I'm honestly, I'm very impressed. Like, I'm, I'm like running my own business as well. I'm doing this podcast and at the same time also like trying to get in training. It's a lot of things going on besides being a parent. Like, yeah, how do you go about it? What is your mindset, your approach here?

Yeah, you know, when we were, when I was growing up, I think I grew up here in Orange County. And I'd say like maybe in, in comparison to, uh, what people would maybe think of a girl growing up in Orange County, we didn't have a lot. So I started working with my dad when I was 7, and then I actually was making my own money pretty good when I was 12.

Wow, that was early.

Yeah. And when I was 15, I had 2 jobs and I've never not had two jobs in my life. I just continued up until today. I've always, I've always worked. And I think there's something to be said about learning work ethic in your youth and knowing that. And my, my mom was so good and very gentle about this, but she would just say, we don't have the money, we can't afford it, but you can find a way, but you can make it for yourself. And it wasn't harsh, but it was honest. And I appreciate that. I think looking back, I definitely had seasons where I was really bitter about that. I resented friends that had a lot of money. I resented, you know, the friends that just went out shopping on the weekends, and I was always working on the weekends. Um, you know, and I think by the time when my mom was really sick, I was working a lot. And then I still had this dream of going— I was gonna be the first one in my family to go to college to get a soccer scholarship. So that, that meant so much to me. So I would, you know, I would finish school, I would train with my team at school, then I'd go and I— at one point I was working a coffee house and a sandwich shop, and after I would close up the shop, I would go and train in the gym for a couple hours. So that started at a really young age, and I think this idea of juggling so much, it was just ingrained in me. And then when my mom passed away, it was— at one point I became the guardian to my two younger siblings, and so I think that you know, when you are trained and when you live and operate in one way, it's— in some ways, it's all that I know. Um, and it isn't always good because I do tend to take on too much, or, um, you know, or I, I don't take care of myself all the time. But those are things I always have to be aware of. And thankfully, I have a great husband who makes me aware of that, like, hey, you need to go to bed, you know, you need, you need to rest. But the work ethic started at a very young age. I can sit and complain and say, well, they have opportunities I don't, or they have something I don't, or, you know, must be nice they have all the money. Or I can go and do my best with what I have and I can go make it happen for myself. So I truly believe in you can always find a way. You can always find a way. And sometimes when you find the way for yourself instead of having someone just hand it to you, Oh, the reward is so much better. You're right.

I'm glad that you actually brought up the part of your partner kind of holding, like at some point just telling you like, all right, enough is enough. Let's chill for a little bit. And I've noticed that with my wife, Jennifer, as well sometimes, but also with my kids where I will be watching the kids if the wife is playing volleyball or something else and I'm forced, forced to slow down. And yet that was exactly what I needed.

Yes.

And so I think there's that part as well, but at least you have to be able to turn off your phone and put it away, or you have to be able to shut down some of these other parts.

Absolutely. And that's taken me a lot of time. I do get this question a lot because I, you know, when I signed as a pro, it was after I had children, which is pretty rare as a woman. Um, you know, my kids were 4 and 6 years old. And so what I was doing in all those years— oh, they're 3 and 5— but all those years leading up to that, it was it wasn't— I just wasn't going out with my jogging stroller for 30 minutes and getting a run in and suddenly I was signed. Yeah, it was working out 2 to 3 times a day, like during their nap time. If I had to get 9 miles in for the day, sometimes that would take me 3 workouts to get that in because I had 2 babies. And so it was believing in the work that I was doing, being relentless in that. But I don't— I don't think I have perfect balance. I think that being aware of who you are is very powerful. Being okay with accepting your weaknesses and knowing like, this is where I struggle, this is where I need help. And my husband, we, we've been best friends since we were 18, so he knows me very well. And he, he said he has the best responses. We're totally opposite as far as personalities go, but you know, so many times people have asked him about, you know, what is it like with a wife that travels so much and does all that, you know, does all of this, and she's flying here and racing here and doing this. And he always just says like, I know who I married, you know, like I, I knew that going in, and he's extremely supportive and, um, and isn't afraid to step in and be like, you, you need to rest, this is a lot. And in fact, we, um, as a result of the pandemic, we now work together. So he actually runs my business. But one of the best things is— and this happened this morning— he's like, okay, we need to, like, let's check out your to-do list. What have you written down? And I kid you not, it was like 25 things. And he's like, Sally, This is a to-do list for the month. We're picking 3.

Let's be realistic here.

Totally. But this is a very common conversation with us because in my mind, I'm like, we need to get all this stuff done right now. And he's like, no, here's the 3 things that we're gonna do. And it's— I'm just so grateful for that. So as far as balancing it, I'm always a work in progress. It is, uh, the seasons change. And you know this as a father, your— when your children were babies, your life was so different.

Yeah.

And as soon as they start potty training and feeding themselves and going to preschool, it changes all over again. And so it's being okay with adapting and bending with the seasons of life and not holding so fast to how you think it's supposed to be or how someone else's family is.

The perfect balance of how it should be. There's no balance in it. There's like, it's one big wave and like you try. Yeah, it really is.

Reality really is. It's day by day. And when you allow yourself that grace that, hey, today was awesome. Tomorrow could be terrible, so I'm going to appreciate today. That was a win.

Today was a win.

Yeah, today is a win. But then it's knowing that this is life for all of us, so that when we are in that storm, it's like, no, it isn't, oh, woe is me, poor me. It's like, this is life. And we learn as much in the storm as we do on the days that are great.

So yeah, very, very well said. I want to talk about Badwater for a little bit.

Yeah, I love talking about Badwater.

It is absolutely mind-blowing. Like, so for those who are not familiar with Badwater, maybe you can explain a little bit more about the race, because all I can tell, it's 135 miles through the oven of the hottest place on Earth. But maybe you can explain a little bit further.

Yeah, that's the— that's one of the best ways to introduce the race, is it is the hottest place on Earth. Um, you know, the race itself has been around as far as the route has gone, uh, has been around for, gosh, like 50 years. But it starts out in Furnace Creek at the lowest point at Badwater Basin. It's the lowest point in, in the United States, uh, about 264 feet, I believe. And then the original course crawls all— you go from the desert all the way up to Mount Whitney, the tallest point in the lower 48 states. So that was 146 miles. So when this, the race first started, it was a handful of people would do that. Now you have to have permits to go on top of Mount Whitney. So we just can't. Yeah, we just can't do that. So the race now stops at Mount Whitney portal. So the race is 135 miles. Typically the race has always been held in January. I think they try to choose the hottest week of the entire year.

In January?

Oh, I'm sorry, July.

Yeah, I just wanna say, isn't it like a perfect—

You're like, wait a minute, that's cold. That's the best.

That would be nice.

That's a really beautiful time in the desert. So in July and the hottest, uh, usually the hottest week of the year. So it tends to be like the second week of July is when we— second or third week. And in the past, in the first year that I did it, which was in 2018, uh, the temperatures hit 128 Fahrenheit, which I think is about 54 Celsius somewhere around there. Yeah. Pretty, pretty crazy. So the challenge in this race is that Yes, there's a distance, 135 miles. Um, you actually go over 3 mountain passes, which a lot of people don't know because you're going through the desert to the most beautiful mountain range, the Eastern Sierra. It's just gorgeous.

I was just there with Billy.

Oh, you were?

A few weeks ago. Oh, okay. It's incredible.

It's incredible. Yeah. Uh, I feel like it's still somewhat of a hidden gem, and I'm hoping to keep it that way, but I don't think we— I don't think we can. But it is— you can hear a pin drop It's so many places along the desert and in the Eastern Sierra. It's such a beautiful, magnificent place. I feel— find so much peace there. But the, the cool thing about that is, you know, I'm— I consider myself a mountain runner. I'm an ultra mountain runner. I love mountain races. I typically race 100-mile mountain races because I love being in the mountains. So this race has always been very mysterious to me because although you start in the desert and the whole race is on the road, there's not a single step on a trail and dirt or anything. You're on the road. Following the white line the entire time. But for me, at one point you get a glimpse of this mountain range. So it's going from the lowest of low, the suffering in the belly of the desert, to the most beautiful point, in my opinion, in the United States. And it just kind of pulls you along. But the parallel to life with this race is, in many ways, when you look at the art of what we do, is, is what has really kept me coming back to it. So Yeah, that's probably the best way I can, I can describe it. It's hot and long.

It's brutal with plenty— how much elevation gain is it in total? You know, I think that from point to point it's about 15,000 feet of climbing on top of the 135 miles, on top of the heat, on top of the sleep deprivation.

Yeah, sleep deprivation is right because we start at 11 PM at night.

That's right, they changed that again as well. You were in the So before we dive into that part, I do— so in 2018, you ran it for the first time.

Yes. Yeah.

You gained a lot of experience. It didn't go according to— it didn't go according to plan.

It didn't.

2021, you came back for redemption and you won first place. So, so talk to me about the difference in training and race, race approach as well, both physically and mentally. I want to just hear kind of of your learnings along the way there.

Yeah, so I'd say first and foremost, my difference in fitness was very— was actually, there wasn't much difference. I trained very hard in 2018. I really believed when I stood in that start line, it was just that competitor's mind standing with my head tall thinking, I'm going to win this race. That is what I trained for. Um, you know, I, I can't possibly imagine anyone training harder than me, you know, just so prideful in all my, all my thoughts. And, you know, I've known for a while, and even growing up, like, people knew me as, as a tough kid, you know. I was strong, I was tough, I was gritty. Um, I didn't cry a lot growing up, even when my mom was, was dying. It was something that I really, really prided myself in, was like, I can get through anything. And even the very first time I ran 100 miles, I ran, you know, the second half of my 100-mile race on a fractured leg and still came in 4th place. And, you know, was so disappointed in that. But I remember telling myself like, yeah, but I, I finished, you know, I finished on, you know, I was tough enough. And so I think I spent, you know, a lot of my life, and even in that year, in that 2018, thinking I'm gonna finish this race, I'm gonna win because I'm so tough, because I'm strong both mentally and physically. That race did not end that way. I mean, I got 7th place, but I did so many things wrong and was physically under a lot of distress for I'd say 105 miles of the 135 miles. And some of it boiled down to not getting my electrolytes right. Um, some of it was just a lot of questions. Like, I don't, I don't really know what happened because I was very well heat trained. I love the heat. I do very well in the heat. Um, so that wasn't really the fact. I didn't ever feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so hot. It was— I had really bad cramping in my adductors. It made it difficult just to take You know, a step and that then turned into a very bad, low, dark mindset. And I'd say from miles 30 is about when it started. And then to about mile 50, it was just so much complaining internally. Internally, I was thinking to myself, this is not the day that I trained for. This is, I can't believe this is happening. I gave so much of my entire year for this race. I mean, it was a lot of. Self-focus, a lot of, you know, just complaining. I was just upset. And about mile 50, I was like, I'm looking at my crew and I'm thinking, they all had to sacrifice 4 days to be out here. There's no way around it. If you have crew, they sacrifice 4 days to be out there in the middle of nowhere just to take care of you and to get you to the finish line. And that kind of snapped me back into it. Reality check. Yeah, the reality check of like, this is a team effort. It actually isn't just about you. And, you know, and at this time too, 2018, I was, you know, 5 years into running professionally. Like, it wasn't like this was my first race or the first time that something had gone on in a race that I, you know, that I was upset about. But I think at this point in my career too, I felt like I'm so experienced, this shouldn't be happening to me. Like, I should be done with this kind of stuff. So when I finished that race, I think the— I had a couple of days to really think about it. And what I realized, and I posted about it, it was that, you know, this, this mountain runner, ultra runner who thinks she's so tough, you know, lined up at the start line and envisioned having the day of her dreams. But really what ended up happening was, you know, I had the day that I needed, and the day that I needed was something that would humble me and teach me and show me that I can never stop growing, that there's always something to learn, and that I actually need to get better than, than what I was.. And so I took 2019 off, which I was so bummed because that year it was super cold. And then it was like, all the records were broken, but my course, and my coach is like, you're not racing it in 2019. But then, um, and then we had the pandemic and it was canceled like the week of the race.

So coming back in 2021 was, it was a gift, a lot of buildup, a lot of, a lot of buildup. I'm ready for this.

Yeah. Yeah. And so the difference between the two is, was really mindset because And this year I was just as uncomfortable in my racing, if not even more so. Um, you know, I had just another unfortunate situation happen that I had to deal with the entire time. My intestines went south at mile 14 and it continued for the entire race. And so, um, it was really every hour, every 30 minutes, I was losing all my nutrition, all my fluid, and there was nothing I could do about it, but my mindset was very different. And so I think that understanding for, and I think most endurance athletes know this, we talk about mindset all the time, right? We talk about the power of our mind, you know, what the mind achieves, the, the, what the mind believes the body achieves. You know, this is how we approach and how we look at something is really what keeps us moving forward. It isn't because our legs are so powerful or so strong. Um, and it isn't even because we tell ourself that we're strong, we're gritty. It really is just having the courage to be okay. With an unfortunate situation and say, I'm going to do the best with it, instead of, well, this just isn't my day.

Yeah, yeah, the easy way out that way.

Yes.

Yeah, for sure. And so during those moments though, like, was there anything that you would tell yourself? Was there anything that you would— like, you're talking about belief, you're talking about the different mindset. So was it more of an appreciation? Was it more of a like No matter what, I'm gonna find a way to get to the finish line. Is that, and you, you worked close together with your crew as well. Mm-hmm. I heard you had quite a bit of support there that helped.

Yeah. Yeah. I, so knowing what I had learned in 2018, that was the, what I wanted to tackle in my training for this year. So that was probably the, I, I was just as fit. So for me, I love training. I will run all day, be in the gym all day, lift. Yeah. I will do it all. I love it. It, but what I needed to do was to do a lot more studying. And I think as athletes, this is probably one of the most overlooked parts of our training because all we, we think go hard, go home all the time, that that is always what wins. It's just hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. So on my recovery days, you know, I would do something really easy, but then I would sit down with my computer and I would read. I would read about everything. I'd read about, um, I studied the Bedouins for a while, like these people that live in the desert and, and the kind of clothes they wear and how they operate and how sweat evaporates and why they wear what they wear and the colors that they wear. And I would listen to podcasts and I'd watch YouTube's, you know, scientists explaining, you know, endurance and performance and heat and, you know, sweat rate. And I mean, it was just ridiculous. I felt like the biggest nerd, but I was constantly just filling my mind with as much knowledge about the environment that I was going to be in as I possibly could. Because what I, I is when the more extreme situation that we put ourselves in, the more unique it is to us. So although I love science and I will study it, I will read it, I listen to it, it's something that I'm always fascinated with it, with. But what I've always found is that even with these great studies, it's just a small group of people. It's just a certain situation that they're choosing to study. So, you know, I found so often as it came to heat training, a lot of times these scientists were putting you know, 8 cyclists into a room and they'd have them cycle for 60 minutes in 100-degree heat. That doesn't help me that much.

I was not gonna apply for 24 hours plus in the—

yeah, in the heat as a runner. So, so then it was piecing together all these different studies, you know, what was— what kind of stayed true and what, what were these findings. And I think that's when the training became very personable to me, where I really started to own it and fall in love with it, was, you know, this isn't just about being the strongest, fastest runner out there. It's about being the wisest and the most discerning and having the most respect, realizing that just because you're fast, but you choose to ignore all the other factors that actually help you move through the desert could be the greatest detriment, which I think was something that really hurt me in 2018. It was not knowing like, hey, this is gonna be the hottest day on the planet on the actual day that you're racing.

The, the whole part, like I, I love that you brought up the whole concept of like being put in place in 2018 of like really basically getting your ass handed to you. Absolutely. And it is sometimes what needs to happen to us. Right. And whether you're running 135 miles or you're going out there to race a half marathon as a recreational runner or a marathon, I think sometimes even doing some of these training runs and bonking on a training run or pushing it too hard on a training run, but realizing race day is going to be tough. Yeah. Like you're going to go out there on race day and you're going to experience some of these tough things. So you might as well put in some of these and put both feet back on the ground and realize race day is going to go hard. Like, um, one of my good friends, um, coach Jimmy Dean Freeman.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know.

Yeah. So he said very well at some point, like in a marathon, sometimes you can go from a pain level 3 to like a 9 or 10 very quickly. And I'll always remember that because that's the same thing. Thing, or like whether that's in some tough training runs or even on, on race day itself.

Mm-hmm.

Like feel great at one moment and then the other moment you might just, but realizing in your head even before you start a race, it's gonna get tough. Like really could start making a difference there sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. When I, it's so funny you say that because there were certain training runs where the whole purpose was to assimilate something like that, to assimilate, um, discomfort. And it wasn't like fun, like I love to suffer. It wasn't like I was chasing that, but I thought, how could I get myself to be very quickly into the situation where I might be struggling? How am I going to respond? What I was really chasing after, as the weeks went by, what I realized was just mindset. I wanted to know what's my go-to, what am I telling myself? And I just became obsessed with my reaction as opposed to the fitness. I knew I had the fitness, but like, how do I respond in these situations? I've been in so many horrible situations that have nothing to do with running. You know, when we sign up for a race, it's like, we can't really complain. We shouldn't even really call it suffering because we signed up for it. It's a recreational opportunity that we have to push our limits, right? And so for me, it did become personal because now I actually know what it feels like to suffer in a very deep way. And I think that I can't help but always parallel my life to my running. It's become an art. And I think that when I would go out on these runs, one, for example, Eddie came with me for this one. I think it was actually our anniversary weekend. I was like, he's such a good man. Thank you for doing this. But the goal was to run up Mount Whitney Portal Road, which is the very end of the race. It's 12 miles and 5,000 feet of climb.

Oh, that's such a good climb. And you get to the portal at like 8,000 or something, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so the training that I had planned for that day was I was going to run up as hard and as fast as I could with a pack. And then I would run down really hard, just really beat up the legs. And it was only for like 3 or 4 miles. Like it was going to be a hard run fast down. And then he would pick me up.

Sounds horrible. I know.

I know.

But in a good way.

Yeah. Yeah. And it was about 90 degrees. So we had some Good heat. After he picked me up, we grabbed food, but I purposely ate a lot. So I ate this Aussie smoothie bowl. I had some banana bread. I had avocado toast. I ate a whole bunch. And then we got back in the car and we drove backwards into the desert. So just out into the middle of Death Valley. And he just dropped me off and said, "All right, run." And I had every type of feeling that you could possibly imagine. My stomach was so— I was so full. I had like a lot of food. It wasn't like I was eating gels and just some energy drink. I had a lot of food. And then my body is just screaming at me because I've just done this super hard effort up the mountain and back down the mountain. And now I have this run in the desert and it was super windy. There is a picture that I posted. I'm wearing all white and I'm running towards the Eastern Sierra. And the sunset that happened that night— my husband took this picture. This is probably the most shared picture I've ever posted ever in my life. I think Nike reposted, all my sponsors reposted. It's been in lots of articles and everything, but it's from that day. That's actually a training day. And I am absolutely miserable in that picture. What I'm feeling inside is so miserable. And I remember Eddie's driving next to me as he got that shot and he yells out to me, he's like, Sally, can you believe the sunset right now? Can you look at the mountains, the sky? This is incredible. And I remember just looking over at him and like, yeah, it's so amazing. But then like I look back and I remember my, my eyes filling up with tears because I'm just like, this is— yeah, but this is it. Like, I chose to do all this hard running with the— this— I want to do this race, I want to do it well. I put myself into this uncomfortable situation and there is beauty all around me that I can't ignore. Like, this is— I, I can't even think of a better parallel to life. Like, no one knows what I'm feeling, because when you look at that picture, you're just like, that's amazing. Like, you look like a strong runner, and they have this backdrop, it's incredible, and everyone wants to share this photo. But when I look at it, I'm like, I'm hurting so bad. You have no idea, right? But what is powerful in that is it goes to show the power in how we respond to life, that we all hit points in our life, we're all going to go through tough seasons, whether it's losing somebody, it's losing a job, a broken relationship, um, you know, a diminishing health. We all hit storms in our life, and no one can climb inside of us and feel what we feel, whether it's that ache or that discomfort, that, you know, that loss. But our response to it all is so powerful. It's so powerful what we put out. In fact, it is what propels us to do harder things in the future. And when I was racing, I remembered that day over and over and over again. I remember Eddie riding next to me and saying, but look at the sunset. And it just so happened that at mile, it was like 103. I ended up making a video about this. Um, after the race, it's just a voiceover of me running into the sunset and it's during the race. It's during the Badwater race. The, uh, race social media had found me on the course and what had happened just 20 minutes before that the race didn't know about. Was I was in such a low, dark place. I had been, you know, losing everything. Like, my body was really beat up, and now I had started throwing up too, and my feet were hurting really bad. So I told my whole crew, leave me alone. I don't want to— I don't want to talk to you. I don't want you to encourage me. I don't— I don't want to hear your words. I need to go to a different place, and I just need to think. I need to pray. I need to meditate. I just need to think. But it was so interesting because it was right at that time that the sun was setting. And the— so my crew isn't around, but the media pulls up and they hop out and they're like, oh my gosh, Shelly, this sunset's amazing! And they get this video and they're running behind me as I'm running into the sunset. And it was the same thing. I, I recalled exactly what I did in training. I was like, yeah, it was at sunset. I felt so terrible, but it was so beautiful. And here I was at this point, I knew I was winning at this point, and I remember You train so hard to have the race of your dreams. You train so hard and in your mind you're thinking, "I'm gonna race strong all the way to the finish line. It's gonna be my hands up. Heck yeah, this is it. This is what I deserve," right? We always think if you train hard, you deserve to win. But for me, I was like, "I'm winning and I just feel so weak and I feel so not capable of getting to that finish line, but I am." And then it was just like, "Oh, this beauty right in front of me." So really grabbing ahold of that moment regardless of how I was feeling, but reminding myself again and again, our reactions and how we embrace even the toughest situations is so powerful. And it's powerful for us as we're in it. I could have complained and just, you know, forgotten it, or I could have, you know, or looked up and been appreciative. So, and it wasn't the day I dreamed it to be, but it was everything I prepared for. If there's anything I've learned in this life of mine, it's if we live life to its fullest, then it'll never be what we expect it to be. It'll be better. And whether we fail or we succeed, we're all doing the same thing. We're learning. My hope was to show you that you don't need things to be perfect to achieve your dreams, and you don't need to pretend that you can't feel a thing. But you do need to believe that you are capable of greater things. Stay courageous.

And then you still had 32 miles to go. Only 32 miles.

Only 32 miles.

I know. And then describe to me that moment though. Like once you were going up Mount Whitney portal, like you basically still had that last 12-mile climb to go to like 8K elevation. You were almost there and you realized you were going to win Badwater. Yeah. Something you had been dreaming enough for years. Yeah. What was that like when everything came together?

I was, I was a little, I was running scared at that point. Um, obviously the closer I got to the finish line, it was really emotional. I had the, the, the last 6, 7 weeks before the race, I was spending half the week in the desert and half the week at home. My goal was to chase down every type of temperature picture every situation and train in it. So I spent hundreds of miles on that Mount Whitney portal road, and every time I would run up it, I would envision myself winning that race. Like, that is what I had dreamed of. I mean, it was a race that I dreamed of winning for 10 years, and so I wanted it to be so real to me. I mean, I would get chills sometimes running up, like, this is— I'm going to be the strongest up. No one's going to be the strongest. When I approached that Portal Road, my soleus was shot. My calf was screaming. Every single step hurt so bad. And I wasn't really able to do a really good push-off. My pace had slowed significantly. You know, and my goal for me was to win, and I really wanted that course record. And that is what I had trained for the entire year. Like, I wanna run fast, I wanna run hard. I'm gonna run so fast up that mountain. Like. So I had a lot of little goals for myself. In the middle of the race, um, as you hit around like Panamint Springs, you know, I didn't really know where I was, what placement I was in, but I did know the course very well. And I knew that I was going to push hard up the mountain and I was going to bomb down into the middle of the desert and push hard again. And I think that's where I kind of stressed out my soleus. I was just pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. So at this point, I paid for it. But as we started up Mount Whitney Portal Road, I ran as best I could for those first 2 miles, and then it was just— it was excruciating. So it was like a little bit of power hiking, hobble, hobble, power hiking, hobble, hobble, and a lot of turning around and looking behind me. I had no idea where anyone else was, and so I was always asking, like, would you see any, you know, any headlands? You see anyone behind? They'd be like, Sally, no. Like, there's been nobody. I've been behind you for hours. And so, you know, as we got— I'd say probably by the time we were half mile away is when I really felt like, okay, I've got this. Wow. So it did take a while for it to really, um, sit in with me, but it wasn't the way that I had dreamed it. You know, I didn't dream of myself hobbling up the mountain and feeling weak. And I think that, that, you know, when I look back on that, I'm— that is such a, a picture of so much of my career is I've fought for so many things in my life and I've, I have worked hard, but I've always been reminded that just because you work hard, it doesn't mean you deserve to win. But the hard work is where the most growth happens. The hard work and that humbling and just being reminded of humanness, that success is not defined by a smooth smooth and luxurious life. That's not how— what is defined by it. It's how we respond to every single situation. So the fact that I limped into that finish line as the champion was very profound to me, and it gave me a lot of hope. And, and again, humbled me, you know, because again, it wasn't the way that I hoped to win, but I won. And I think that that's more relatable to most people than had I had this great run from start to finish and I'm so strong and I'm so great. This is because I trained so hard. And a lot of people would say that, I followed your training, you deserve to win. I'm like, but I didn't deserve to win. I'm so grateful I got to win.

Yeah. And that is indeed, you say that so well. Like we sometimes envision the line from A to B to be like this even progression line where in real life it goes up and down and all of that. Like we were joking earlier, You're coming over here to my place and we're scraping off the macaroni off the wall. Like it's real life, real life happening over here. But, and I think it's just more, how do you adjust, adjust to all of these challenges that come across in your, in your way? But what I find so powerful, and I want to explore this a little bit more, is the power of belief and you feeling going out there mentally. You had gone through some challenges in previous races, but still you visualized yourself going out there and doing really well on race day and visualize yourself winning. And I think that can happen in all sorts of scenarios, even for recreational runners who just really envision running a marathon under 4 hours or really wanting to finish a half marathon or whatever that is, right?

It is.

I see so many people having limiting beliefs that because they can't aim high enough or they write themselves off or other people write them off too. I think, I think the outside factors plays a huge role in that as as well. But maybe you can share some of your thoughts about belief and about like mindset to them to that extent.

And I love that you brought that up because I think now more than ever, the outside factor, um, is an unfortunate reason why many people don't move forward in a goal or a dream or wanting to even try something. We are now more than ever so accessible by everyone. At any given time, I can open up my phone and there's gonna be dozens and dozens of messages and comments and notifications. It's realizing any moment someone can access me, they can tap on my shoulder. And we see this for our youth too. As a mother, my kids are teenagers now, 13 and 15, and that's something we constantly have to monitor, almost fight for, is we're living in a world now where We can speak into a stranger's life, say whatever we want, and not give a care about the fact that they're a real human being with feelings. And I think that for me, I understand that on a really deep level too, just because I get it in waves. You know, I can post something and it's at any moment people think that they know me or that they understand me and they can size me up. And I've had some harsh things. Things said about me and to my face. And, and so what I always like— I love speaking on this too, because at the end of the day, it's so important that we first know who we are. And it's something that we have to remind ourselves of every single day. When you look in the mirror, you have to remember who you are and realize that there's only one of you. And everything that you feel, your dreams and your goals, nobody cares about them the way that you do. And nobody ever will. There's no— all these people that have opinions about what you can and can't do, they don't get up and actually think about your goals and whether or not you're working toward them. They're too self-focused on themselves. Yeah. And so when you remember who you are and you understand that only you can make something possible and no one else can do that for you, that's really powerful. That should give you the confidence. That should show you how valuable you are. You're this precious jewel that, like, there's not a lot of you, there's just one of you. But I think also following up with that, it's understanding that failures, letdowns, mistakes, flaws, they do not define your value. In fact, those were never supposed to be limiting factors. All of those things are supposed to help propel us to something better.

Almost like a stepping stone to the next thing.

Yeah, it's a stepping stone. And I think that we have been conditioned to believe that if I fail, that's humiliating. Everyone's going to know, everyone's going And if I fail, oh, that's the message that I need that says I'm not supposed to be doing it. It's like, no, it's just saying that you just need to get better. You need to work at it. You need to train. You need to really consider what it is that you're doing. Um, when I was an English teacher, I was an English high school English teacher, I had my kids keep journals and I'd give them random topics. Oh, I love that.

Like, I love that you actually got there.

Yeah. And I'd give them random topics to talk about. And, and one of them was about, you know, I'd always ask them about goals and dreams that they have and things like that. And sometimes I have kids share it. But one of the things I always love to share were the stories about Walt Disney, Oprah, Michael Jordan. I mean, their stories are so incredible. Walt Disney went bankrupt 5 times. 5 times. I mean, I, I don't even know what I would do if I went bankrupt once. And you think that Most people, when they fail so bad, you go bankrupt, you have nothing, that, "Hey, maybe it's time to invest and maybe go after a new dream." Or the safe route for life. Or the safe route. But Walt's story is so powerful because even after the second failure, the third failure, the fourth, the fifth, he still really believed in this dream that he had and this idea that he thought would impact people in such a wonderful way. Well, now when we look at what it is, I'm so grateful that he didn't give up. And so I think when, when I talk to people about mindset and as it pertains more specifically to racing, so you're going to hit those patches in your training and your racing, and you're going to have critics. Know what you're going to do before all of those happen. And I think the power of quieting your mind, whether it's out on a long run, run. You know, as you get up in the morning, you have those quiet moments. You know, go over those things. I know for me, before I started, you know, before I even stood on the start line at Badwater, I had things that I knew that I would tell myself. And one of the most powerful things was that every problem that arises actually isn't a problem. It's just a situation that needs a solution. It's just something that I need to take care of, but nothing is more important than that goal that I have. It doesn't matter how much, you know, I'm— whatever it is that I'm feeling or how big the problem might seem, the most important thing for me is getting to that finish line and really going after that goal with my whole heart, because that's the story that I want to tell. I don't want to tell another story about how bad my legs cramped. Like, I'm over that story.

Well, and then you can block— like, your, your focus becomes really like on that part. Yeah, you can really start blocking out more of the distractions and more of the noise Yes. And I, I'll be the first to admit, like what you were saying earlier, and I'm glad you actually brought that up. I've, I've personally experienced some of that stuff as well, where I would post a video and some people might not agree.

That's one thing.

Yeah. But then once, for example, I have a video of me jumping in an ice bath and me coming out without a shirt on, the amount of comments that I've heard about me being skinny, needing to lift, doing this, like, like I had to really put, I'm not gonna lie, like I had to put on a filter and at some point just just ignore like the YouTube comments. Yeah. And like, it was fascinating to see. And like, it— like, I can handle that part. It's just the part that concerns me sometimes. It's like, oh, here's our daughters, 5 and 8. They're getting older. How are they going to be dealing with some of this stuff? So I think like there is a big shift happening right now in society. But I do think there's another part of that happening too with digital minimalism and Cal Newport and talking about more conscious behavior towards social media. And I've done some writing in my diary on that topic as well. Like, all right, how am I going to be dealing with social media behavior and what sort of way? And even taking a bit of a step back sometimes to analyze what's going on, because I think too many people go on autopilot, just go in it. And if you start taking the positive and the negative all in, like it becomes an overload of information indeed. And sometimes You just got to go do your own thing. Ignore all the noise out there.

Yes.

Just, you know what you were supposed to do. You know you best.

And so, yeah, I love that. I think what's so good, because a lot of times we do only talk about the critics, but it's so important that you also understand how you're responding to flattery.

Yeah, to both.

And to people that don't know you but can, can sing your praises and can just say so much nice stuff. And if that becomes so important to you, if that then is what brings you value in what it is that you're doing, it's going to be so empty. Because whether it's someone criticizing you, and these strangers, whether a stranger criticizes you or a stranger praises you, at the same time, there is a response that you are getting from that and you are absorbing. If you choose to absorb one of them, you also have to be prepared to absorb the other one. And, and there's a lot of danger in that. And so one of the things I talk about this with my kids, I tell them there's very few people that have the right to speak into your life, and that circle will always be very small, but those people are gold. And make sure you always treat them that way, because when you're really questioning something in your life, whether it's your value, whether it's the way that we look a big career choice, a goal, a letdown, a failure, something in relationship, those are going to be your people that you go to. You're not going to go to social media and do a poll. You don't need to, because when you have people that know who you are, who you were in your ups, your downs, and your bad days, your good days, those are people that really care about you as a person who don't just see the post you put up on social media.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that is something I know for me personally that I've had to do over the years. You know, I shared this story in one of my podcasts. The very first photo shoot that I had with Nike, it was very nerve-wracking because— so this is back in 2014. When I got signed, and even today, I look like a soccer player. You know, I have bigger legs, got really big quads, and I've always been pretty muscular. I mean, that's just the way I was made, even as a little girl.

Girl.

Like, I build muscle pretty fast. Uh, there's even— I, and I, I don't want to go into the science of it all, but there is a small percentage of women that can build muscle really fast. I happen to fall into that, you know. But there was a time when I rejected that because for me, I just thought, well, if even though I love running so much, like, I really do not look like an elite endurance athlete. Like, I just look so different. And so I, I ignored the fact that that was the body that got me signed, that was the body that, uh, where I was winning races, you know, that no one asked me to change. But I did listen to what a lot of people said online, and I ignored what I knew to be true of myself and, and who I was. And so in 2014, I went out, um, I flew up to Nike to turn in my contract, and I got off the bus to meet the rest of my team. And this guy is my friend, he's a very good friend of mine, but I get off and he says, oh my gosh, your legs are huge! And I was like, yeah, I was a soccer player for a while. He's like, well, I was a soccer player, my legs were never that big. I was like, awesome, good beginning here. Yay! And then the next day we had this photo shoot and And I was like really self-conscious about myself. Like, oh my gosh, I literally am bigger than everyone on the team, like physically bigger. My legs are more muscular. And I'm with a brand that's really big that a lot of people watch. And I started to get a lot of anxiety about that. And I remember the first time that Nike Running posted a picture, it was me leading the pack of guys on the trail and I'm coming down this trail. Right leg is just boom, like on the trail, just totally flexed. And the comments that came in were so just harsh, like, she's big, she's huge, there's no way that's a professional athlete, who the heck is that? I mean, it was just hundreds and hundreds, right? I mean, this— they have millions of followers. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, for those next few years, I really struggled with my muscle. I struggled with the way that I looked, so much so that I would go and I'd talk to nutritionists and be like, you know, what's— what do I need to do to take my muscle off? Like, how can Can I like decrease it? I need to keep it because I need to perform. And they were always like, I don't think I want to work with you. Yeah, they were like, something's not right. And so over time though, I, I realized like this is a really unhealthy way. And I think especially being a mom helped me because having a daughter, having a son, um, also coaching people, being a trainer— like I've been in the sports and fitness world for a long time.

Yeah, you would see it firsthand with your athletes.

Yeah, yeah. And so I was like, this, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't sound right. This can't be right. Like, I'm just going to own, I'm going to own these muscles. I'm going to own what it is. But I had to first be okay with the fact that I will always, always have people critique what I look like. And I had to have that conversation. Okay, when they do, not when, not if, when they do, How are you going to respond? Let's talk about the healthy way. I mean, having that conversation myself was really powerful, and then having the conversation with people really close to me, you know, helping me kind of dive into that. And what I found was, if I am going to be so excited and stoked and feel good about all the compliments, then, then I also need to receive the critics. And so then I decided, no, I need to not receive any of it, because that's not why I do it. I don't do it so that people praise me. I don't do it for the flatterers. And I don't do it for your criticisms. None of that means anything to me. And so staying true to who you are, staying true to your, your goal, being hyper-focused on the goal, because everything else that's supposed to happen, everything that's good, is it's, it's gonna all fall into place if you stay focused on the goal. And, um, and it's, it's true. I mean, just 2 days ago I was in New York City Marathon and someone came up to the booth and was like, no offense, but you are huge for a better. And I was like, oh yeah, I get it to my face a lot. But I, I think too, I think people know me on social media as being, being very open. Um, and I'm not— I mean, I did a post, I said, you know, I'm 5'6", I'm 147 pounds. Like, I just come out and say it. People are like, whoa, like, we're not expecting that. Are we allowed to say that? I'm like, yeah, you are, because there's a reason why we have eyes. We're supposed to see the beauty in each other. There's a reason This isn't why we are all unique. This isn't— we can't talk about it anymore. But let's talk about what we're doing with our body and not be so obsessed with how it looks and, and basing on how you look as to whether or not you can do something that you love. If you love something, go do it. Don't only do it because you look one way. If you really love it and you're passionate about pursuing it, then do it.

Well, and look, that, that body right there got you to win Badwater 135. So something must be working. So that's, that's incredible. I do want to briefly talk about, I want to be respectful. I honestly don't even know how long we've been talking.

We can keep talking for a while.

It's great. I do want to be respectful of your time here too. But let's talk briefly about strength training because I know you're a big advocate of strength training for runners, for everyday people who are not even runners. And you have integrated from a very early age on already. And so talk to me for a little bit about why and what sort of benefits you have seen personally with strength training and sort of the ways you integrate that.

So strength training, that journey began, as I shared earlier, I used to, you know, close up the coffee house at night and I would go train in the gym. And it was typically in strength. As a soccer player, I wanted to be strong. Muscles are much more accepted in the world of soccer. I mean, you need to be strong, agile, run fast. It's power, explosiveness, everything. And so that was just a part of my training. That's what I knew. Um, when I— I think it was the first year that I was married— well, actually, I'll back up. So like a couple years before I got married, I was in a car accident. Someone was shot on the freeway. Everyone on the freeway I know is crazy. We were all going 70 miles an hour on the freeway, and my boyfriend, who's my husband now, um, was following me in his car. He slammed on his brakes, went out off the side of me, and I looked over at him right as I'm slamming on my brakes, and then I'm hit. The guy behind me didn't stop fast enough, so our— my car goes spinning across the freeway. I got really bad whiplash. I had already had some spinal issues. I have lordosis, kyphosis, a little bit of scoliosis, and, um, and then I have like a little bit of torque in my rib cage, so my lungs don't expand to 100%. They never have been. So, um, I— from that point on, I've always had some type of back pain. My first year, um, that I was married, my back was in so much pain. So I was like 22. I was pretty young when I got married, so I was 22. Um, even just laying down hurt. And so I started doing Pilates because I had learned that wherever you have pain even if it's something that might be a permanent injury or something that you have chronic that maybe you just had to deal with for the rest of your life, support everything around it. So where that pain is, make everything around it stronger. So Pilates was really good for me because I wanted to make my core really strong, you know, my abs, my glutes, my everything I needed to get strong to support the pain in my back. It was a game changer for me. And from that point on, I just continued staying with strength training. So for me, the beginning of strength training was because it was a way to ward off pain, because I didn't want to be in pain. So I thought, if I can be stronger than the pain, then I can continue to do the things that I love and have that strong foundation to build upon. Yeah, to build upon. And I think that when I entered ultra running, what was so amazing to me was, one, there at the time— so this is 2009 when I first started training for my first race in 2010. 2010, there wasn't a lot of stuff out there. There wasn't a lot on training. Even now, I still don't think that we really know how to perfectly train an athlete. I mean, there's a lot of great coaches out there that are trying and are doing an amazing job. I mean, I coach ultra athletes, but I still think because there's so many different distances, there's so many different variables, um, so many different things you're asking an athlete to do, especially if they're doing 100 miles in the mountains. That's not just running. There's a big mental element, but then you're also asking them to endure for long hours on their feet. So when I first started in the sport, not being able to find anything about how to properly train for these races— there really wasn't much— I— it just made sense to me, well, if I'm gonna go run around in the mountains for 50 miles, like, don't I want to be strong? Like, I would think I'd need to be strong to endure the later stages of the race. I want to have a body body that can endure. So really, that is the journey that I've been on. Um, I'd say that in the beginning of that, me talking about that wasn't always accepted. All the coaching certification courses that I went to, there was big arguments sometimes with coaches. They'd be like, I'd never put a weight in my runners', in my athletes' hands. What are you talking about? Yeah. And then I was the weird ultra runner, so then a lot of those coaches too were just like, you guys are weird. And there's many, many years ago. So I did kind of feel like on the outside, I did feel like I know what I'm doing is kind of weird, but it's, it's working for me. I might— I don't get injured. I'm able to hammer down a mountain so hard at the end of a 100-mile race and I feel good. I— my IT bands never hurt, my knees don't hurt, my lower back doesn't hurt. Well, now here I am, I'm almost a decade into not being— almost a decade now has been that I haven't been injured. Incredible. And I attribute that to strength training. And it isn't something— again, I don't think I have the perfect balance in it, but what I do know is that we need to do it in some capacity. And if— now, having grown up lifting weights, I think that's why I can handle a lot more. And so this app that I've created, this strength app, you know, there's, um, a category in there, it's running foundations. It's no weights.

I, I actually, I actually I checked it out this morning.

Oh, you did?

It is incredibly well put together. Thank you. Like, that's the part that I love too. You didn't need like a whole lot of like tools and whatnot. You could do it without.

Yeah. And I think this is a good starting point for everyone because the running foundations category, what it does is it forces you to check in with you. So a lot of the feedback I've been getting is like, whoa, I didn't know how weak I was, or off balance, or unstable, or like, I— it looked like it was going to be easy and then I did it and it wasn't. Or so using our own body weight to move in different motions, even just standing on one foot and squatting up and down, is so telling for people.

I have to admit, okay, so this morning I was doing one of your exercises and it looked easy on the, on the app, right?

Because I'm smiling in the video, right? Okay, up and down.

So there was one where you had to like stand on one leg and sit down on a bench and stand up again on one leg. Yeah. It was much easier the way you made it look than it was for me.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, there's a ton of—

where can people find the app? Yeah, sallymccray.com, you can go there. Or if you follow me on Instagram, Yellow Runner, the link is in there too. So those are the two best ways to find it.

Good, good. And so there's follow-along workouts in there, and then there's— you have a 30-day challenge too, I saw.

Yes, so today is day 2, but that challenge will be in there forever, so you can start it whenever you want. But people are doing it all together.

Um, yeah, I love the community element on that as well.

Yeah, there's a community element, there's vlogs, you know, content that I don't share with everyone, it's just for the people in the app. Um, we have a Facebook page, and yeah, we're, we're always building up content. Every single week we release new content. So right now it's just building up that library, and then I'm working with the creators to to add more audio-guided runs. So you put me in your ears, you head outside, and I guide you through a workout.

That's awesome. You know one thing that I think you should create? Like, okay, so I was thinking about this, right? Earlier we were talking about, oh, you get in that tough spot on race day, right? And sometimes you don't have a crew. But I came up with a thing. I'm like, I've already recorded certain audio things that I play back to myself, right? Like every morning I've written out certain affirmations affirmation, certain things. And like, while I do my morning, like, warm-ups or workouts, I'm actually listening to like a 20-minute self-recorder thing every single day, right?

I love that.

So that includes like some of my goals, some of the things I'm going to, some of my affirmations. So constantly feeding the mind with positive vibes, right? But I want to start doing this too for race day. So when I hit a really bad spot in like an ultra or whatever, I'm like, instead of going to that track, yeah, let me actually go back to this positivity 2-minute, like, pep talk and pep talk myself over here.

That's so powerful. And it's, it's again going back to how powerful your mind is, right? To just remind yourself you're recentering. And, but I love that. I might have to do some of those recordings in the app. Just open that up and Sally's kicking the butt.

Like, yeah, yep, yep. Oh, that would be a good kick under the butt from Sally.

I love that.

That would be good. Um, in closing, I want to ask 2 more questions. One about recommendations for the everyday recreational runner. Okay. To become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. But before we do, where can people find out more about you?

Okay. Yeah, I think the best place is probably salimurkey.com. I feel like that's a hub for everything and I even have a contact form there. So if anyone has questions, they can always send them directly to me and that's like the best way to reach me. Sometimes people try to reach out on Direct message on Instagram and it— stuff does get lost. I try to answer as much as I can, so it is a good way to follow me on, on Yellow Runner on Instagram. But if you want to really get your question asked, then email me through my website.

Yeah. And I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes as well. And then like, yeah, the last question, any recommendations, high level, for like the recreational runner to improve, to become a stronger stronger, healthier, happier athlete?

Remember, it's, it's your journey and it's not supposed to look like anybody else's except yours. And what you have to bring to the table is unique to you. And that comes down to your family, your career, what motivates you, what your dreams are. Appreciate the fact that you are unique because that's gonna help you enjoy the journey better. So take care of yourself. Um, I can't stress that enough. I think sometimes when I talk to new athletes and, and winners, they are so stressed about reaching all these goals right away. You know, they're like, I wanna get into ultra running. I wanna run 100 in 3 months. I wanna do that. I need to do— I like, you don't need to do any of that, but you do need to appreciate and respect the journey because there's so much that you're gonna learn. So enjoy it. Take it one day at a time. When those storms come, appreciate 'em cuz you're gonna get stronger, but don't ever stop going after that dream.

So well said. Take a zoomed out view and go for the big goals. Absolutely. Sally, thank you so much. Like, there's one last thing. Yeah. In the next few weeks over here, Billy Yang is coming over to the house and we're gonna do an ice bath challenge.

Just the two of you. So I can commentate that. I don't think I'll join you guys.

Absolutely. No, you are actually invited to join over there because I know you're really good with heat and the cold is a challenged from time to time.

So a massive challenge for me. In fact, if you talk to— Bill Yang's a good friend of mine. If you talk to him about me and cold, he will tell you it's an ongoing joke. Whenever we go for a run— pardon me— whenever we go for a run, if it's slightly cold, at all cold, I will have 2 or 3 layers.

Even now you're like wearing a jacket over here. It's 70 degrees inside.

But it's about point 6 miles in that I'll be taking the layers off. And he's like, why do you even bring a jacket? I can't even believe you. Of course. So yes, I'm terrible in the cold. I love the heat. Bring me all the heat. But yes, I will, I will need to link up with you guys for that. Awesome.

That sounds good. Thanks so much. Really appreciate you sharing everything. That was awesome. Thank you for listening. I love how real Sally keeps it and how she shares so openly and honestly about her journey. I would love to hear from you. What was your favorite quote or key takeaways or any of your favorite lessons from this episode? Please let me know in the comments. All show notes can be found at extramilest.com/48, and this includes links to her running app, to her website, her social channels, her podcast, and more. If you would like to find out more about my personal running program, it's a running coaching program, check out pbprogram.com. You can find training schedules based on heart rate with low-intensity running, high-intensity running. There's different race strategies, and twice a week you have an opportunity to jump on Zoom calls with myself and several other members in the program. This morning I finished a really awesome conversation with Dr. Steven Seiler from 80/20 Running, and I cannot wait to share this episode with you very soon. Without further ado, I want to let you guys go. Enjoy your run out there, and I will see you again at the next episode. Bye now.