#52: Kilian Jornet Round 2, Training Advice & UTMB Lessons

So first, like, know who you are. Like, that's the first question. Like, when it comes to training, it's not like, what's the typical plan? No, like, typical plan is, it's for a typical person that don't exist. Try to understand who you are. Like, what's your physiology? What's your capacities? What's your adaptation from the past? And your everything like that. And then from there, build. So train well, but never to the, to the exhaustion. Like, train until a point that you feel like, uh, you have something left, and then go easy. Like, uh, just enjoy the easy days and recover until your next hard training. Forget about, like, pace and to, and to just not be afraid of walking. Then, yeah, running will come. Failure, it's, it's there all the time, like, and it's important, and, and it's, uh, it's a part of the game, it's a part of the journey. And it's where probably you analyze better. If you have like failure, like you will say, okay, try to analyze what's been good, what's been wrong, how can I improve? And it's that way that you can grow as an athlete, as a person, wherever. And I would say always focus on the process, not focus on the outcome, not focus on the result. And the result at the end is just like validation of that process, but it's not the only validation. To rationalize that way, I think it's a big part of dealing and taking the best of failure, to try to analyze and not be upset and not be obsessed about the result, but just to try to see what's been good, what's been bad, and how you can do better the next time.

Welcome to another episode of The Extra Mileage Show, episode number 52. My name is Floris Gierman, and on this podcast I interview different athletes, different coaches, and different health experts about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. And today is my second full-length interview with Killian Jornet. He's the greatest mountain and ultra runner of all time. The first conversation we recorded at Hardrock 100 in Silver Corrado the evening before he broke the course record. And this second conversation for Extra Mileage Show 52, we recorded just recently here, right after he won the UTMB 100 miler in Europe. We still had a lot to talk about, so in this episode we cover advice for runners looking to improve in their training and in their racing. We talk about recovery and recovery tools, about nutrition, about strength training, and of course his UTMB performance of a time. I would love to hear from you, what was one key takeaway from this episode? Please let me know in the comments on YouTube. This really becomes a great compilation. Even for that first interview that we had, there's more than 400 comments already with a bunch of different takeaways, and I'll make sure to link to that as well in the show notes. Without further ado, I hope you enjoy my second conversation with Kilian. Hello, Kilian. It's great to see you again. Thank you for joining.

Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed our, our last conversation, and yeah, nice to, to be talking to you again.

Yeah, that was, that was a lot of fun. First of all, congrats on an incredible race season. I mean, just in the last 6 weeks alone, yet the Hardrock Colorado race, then the, the Sierra Zinal 31K, and also the UTMB 100 miler last week. So a lot of different back-to-back races. Before we dive into UTMB 2022, I just want to check, how is your recovery going? After all of your hard efforts over here?

It's, it's been good. Like, I, I didn't plan anything after UTMB. Like, I just wanted to relax. So this week after the race, I was like just like taking the bike with our daughters to the kindergarten. But actually on Saturday, um, so like one week after UTMB, I did a local race here, like a 10K, 1,000 meters elevation, and it felt good. Like, I, I felt like Metabolism, it was well recovered. Then like muscles, like I still like muscles were good, but like some small tensions in some tendons and like you feel that you are not like as, uh, yeah, still a bit the, the neuromuscular connections are still not there. But yeah, I feel like, yeah, at least metabolically like well recovered.

You're one of a kind, man. I will have to say it. You're already like, you already did a race again. Most people would be like chilling for quite a while celebrating and But I do think that that is a way that you tend to recover quite well on your own as well. I saw on your Strava you recently already had a run of like 8,000-foot climb again. Like, you're definitely out there.

Yeah, like, it's nice weather. We had been like all the summer, it's been like raining, raining, raining, raining every day here in Norway. And now, like, we came back from France and it's like sun and it's like all these nice things to do, like all these climbs and scrambles. So it's like, no way I will stay home. Like, it's just like, yeah. Need to enjoy what the weather offers.

It's so funny because I have some friends living in Alaska, and I think like your friend Max lives there. I have some friends living over there too, and they're saying a similar thing in Anchorage, where like the winter months are very dark and short, but then in the summer months, it's like the trail days are so long and you spend as many hours as you can on the trails. It's a funny one that way. Do you use any type of recovery tools at all? Do you use, like, after a race like this, do you use, like, muscle recovery tools? Do you use ice bath? Do you use, like, some of those compression boots? Is there anything that works well for you?

Yeah, I, I saw actually, like, a few weeks ago a very nice, like, uh, graph about, like, recovery, and it was like— I don't know if you've seen it— like, it's like, um, what's, like, more efficient and what's more expensive. And you could see what's more efficient. It's often not that expensive. It's sleep, food, and, and, and just like, uh, connection to nature and like, uh, just not stress situation. So like, I, I practice that. Like I try to, to sleep normal and, and, and eat, mm, like, uh, as I would do normally and, and just like listen to the body and say, okay, like now I don't feel motivated to go for a run, so I rest. I feel motivated to go for a, a ride. I do. But just like, yeah, I, I No, I haven't been using like kind of any, any tool like, yeah.

That was a great article. I loved seeing that one as well. And it was, it was quite eye-opening too, indeed, with the cost and the, and the effort there. The, the part that I thought always stands out in some of those is the importance of sleep. It's free and it's still one of the most underutilized like performance tools available for athletes there. So you definitely pay attention to your sleep as well then, is that correct?

Well, yeah, like I often don't sleep that much. Like my average sleeping time is like 6 hours, but that's what I feel I need for recovery. Like, uh, if I don't put an alarm after 6 hours, I will wake up. So that's good with the girls because like they wake up very early, like, uh, 5, 6 in the— like 5 in the morning normally, 6 in the morning if, if we are lucky. So, um, yeah, like 6 hours, it feels right for me. Um, but yeah, I try to, to get that well and, and just to see if I need, need more sleeping or if I need that, I need to recover a bit, uh, take an easy day, take a, like, just like when the focus is recovery. Like, for example, after Hardrock, uh, before Sierre Ginal or between Sierre Ginal to UTMB, it was like, now the goal number one is not to build any capacities but to recover. Uh, so it was like, okay, today I feel like, uh, I, I, I'm not that motivated that I don't, I feel that I need to recover. I just do like a 30-minute run or I rest. And that's, uh, that's the best tool, better than like do any expensive things. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Sometimes when I do look at certain high-performing athletes who are putting a lot of time in training and racing, they sometimes do work though with, let's say, physical therapists or chiropractors or getting massages. Do you, do you work with a physical therapist at all, or, or is this more on your own that you're working on what needs help in the body?

I, I do go to, like, uh, we have, uh, one neighbor that it's, uh, it's actually one of the best chiropractors I have ever seen, like, uh, in the world. And, uh, and I go to him like maybe once a month, especially because I have a big difference between my right and left leg since, uh, 2006. I had a, uh, like I broke my patella, so since then, uh, I, I have a big difference on the leg. So every X time, like my back have like some twisting and, and that, and, and every time is the same things that he's fixing and it feels a good help. So yeah, I definitely go to, yeah, to a chiropractor, but like, yeah, one time every month or every second month, kind of. Yeah.

Yeah, there you go. Let's, let's switch over and start talking about UTMB because the race just happened. It was an incredibly exciting race to watch. How did you feel going into this race? Like, you have had like a successful race season leading into it, but you also had some, some challenges come in over there throughout the training leading up to it. So how did you feel going into it on race day?

So, uh, it was, uh, very interesting because like, uh, as you mentioned, this season it was like a very big build-up before Zegama, then before Hardrock, and those two races went like very smooth. Like, it was— I had that plan and it just happened how I was planning. And then after Hardrock, uh, the recovery was super good. Like, uh, uh, I started training right away after the race. Like, two days after Hardrock, I started training very easy, but then a big week, like, uh, uh, 110 miles the week, uh, uh, like 2 weeks after Hardrock, and then like feel like super good on short. Like I was doing all my personal best, like in, in the, on all my training loops. So I was like, wow, that's, that sounds good for, for, for the rest of the season. Um, then actually, uh, it was, um, uh, race here in Norway, a part of the Golden Trail Series, uh, which, uh, my Emily, my wife, she were running. And actually it was like a COVID, like, uh, outbreak there. So like many athletes were, had COVID and that, and she got positive and I was like, oh, um, I feel good. Like, I don't think I, I have got it. Like, uh, I was feeling good, but, um, 2 days or 3 days before Sierre Ginal when I was traveling down, I saw that, uh, my HRV was like dropping a lot and my pulse was like climbing a lot, like, uh, 10-15 pulls more, and then like, uh, uh, as you'll be like just dropping. And I was thinking the first day, I was thinking, ah, that might be the travel. But then it kept like that, second, third day it was like pulls.

And this, this was your, your resting heart rate, or this was your—

my resting heart rate. Oh wow. Yeah, so it was like, oh, maybe, yeah, I'm working on something. But I was doing tests and it was negative. So sure, you know, it definitely felt like, uh I was doing a good time. Like, I'm super happy about the time. Like, I think I was in shape for doing much better, but it's my second best time at the race. So I, I was in good shape, but the feelings were very strange, especially in the muscles. Like, uh, the muscles were very, um, it's hard to describe, but they were like kind of heavy and not— it felt like I, I was a bit clumsy, kind of like I couldn't like keep a good lightness on the legs. Uh, and then like when I was pushing very hard Uh, I, I felt like it was heavy kind of on the, on the, on the chest. So I was like, oh, that's, uh, that's strange. I was feeling very good in training and I was thinking maybe just like about bad day, like about race, like it happens. But I was very happy about the time because I was like, yeah, as I mentioned, doing my second best time. Um, but yeah, like a couple of days after, uh, uh, Sea Original, then it, uh, the tests were positive. So I was saying, okay, it might be that, that it's affecting me. So then I took like very easy, like, uh, between Sierre-Zinal and UTMB, that it was like, I think 12 days, I did 3 rest days, uh, one long run that it was 4 hours, and the rest it was like 30 minutes, 1-hour run, super easy, all like zone 1. So super, super easy. And then like I was talking to the doctors and, and it was like, okay, like it's, uh, now COVID's been like for like, uh, 15 days, uh, more or less. So it's, it's gone and it's, uh, you might feel a bit more on the legs, like on the muscle side, but especially in long distance when the effort is not high, like it's, or like it's not intense, like, uh, the heart rate on that is much lower and it should be okay. But, um, so I was confident because the training was good. I, I did a very good performance series now, so I think I'm in very good shape. Um, I have done good preparation, uh, for long distance too. So, um, I just need to deal with, uh, what I feel in the legs and what I feel during the race, but just like to be attentive on that. But I was, I would say, yeah, I was, I didn't know what to expect, but I was confident on my shape. Yeah.

And at least you got the clearance from the doctor as well. I'm sure that, that, that helps too.

Yeah.

That's it. It's not going against the advice of a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, do you— I'm just curious myself, like for example, next month I'm running the Chicago Marathon, and still I know at the start line sometimes I experience some kind of race nerves. I see the videos of UTMB, I see how many people are there at the start line and all of the chaos around it. Do you still feel certain race nerves at, at race day, at the start of something like that, or you have raced so much that at this point you don't really experience that so much anymore?

In an ultra, not much. Like, I would say, like, for example, before a vertical kilometer or Sierre-Zinal, I would say I'm more like attentive. Like, my, my, my awakeness, it's, it's higher. Like, I'm more like, uh, uh, yeah, open to all the senses, kind of, let's say it. Uh, not like— I wouldn't say like the stress of the race, that's something that, uh, I think with the experience and also I try to rationalize like, okay, that's just like taking energy from me. Like it's, it's, it's stupid thing. So it's, I, I try to not have it, which is very easy to say, it's more difficult to do, but I, I think I get to that point. But before a ultra, like it just like, you know that you will be there for like 18, 20, 20 some hours. Uh, so it's like, okay, uh, uh, yeah, it's, it doesn't matter how you start, it doesn't matter the first half of the race. So, so it just like Yeah, it's— and then especially, like, I would say it's very different if you go to, to a mountain expedition or something like that, that it can be long, but you always have this kind of risk management. So like the days before, you are always like, okay, uh, tomorrow I need to deal with this rock falling or this setup or this thing that will like— yeah, it's a risk. And then you are like always thinking about that and like how you will manage this dangerous situation, which in an ultra is like, okay, no, I have done my work and I just need to run. So I think it's, it's good to, to, yeah, rationalize all this.

Yeah, no, it is. It's, it's a good point. And I think the more, the more you keep calm in mind, the more your energy, you can focus on the race instead of all this. You, you can't really have control over that at that point anyway.

So yeah, and, and then like, it's, it's very easy to do mistakes, uh, both in short but also especially in long race if you have like, if you are like much more nervous, like you, you will tend like to, to maybe start stronger because then with the adrenaline you don't feel like the same, like you feel it's easy, but, uh, but your body's working hard. So I think especially in long races, like the energy management, it's almost more important than, than the shape. So, uh, yeah, being nervous and like doing the, not doing mistakes when it comes to, to pacing, when it comes to, to energy management, it's, uh, It's key, and, and that can be very easily affected if you are like, uh, yeah, taking bad decisions that comes from like being too excited or being too, too, yeah, too nervous. Yeah, absolutely.

On, on the race day itself, you knew it was going to be a very competitive field. There was Jim Walmsley, there was François Mathieu, like there were several really legit athletes over there. What was your race strategy beforehand? Did you have anything in mind of like, I'm gonna stick with the, the group, I'm gonna let some of them go. Like, what was your initial thoughts before you started the race?

So, uh, before the race I was thinking, uh, I, I know I have the speed. Like, I, I don't think the, the speed would be a problem in at any point of the race. Uh, but I was like wondering more about like how the muscles will— like always in a long distance, like I, I more wonder about the muscles, how will react. So I was thinking kind of same as before Hardrock to say, okay, I want to take very easy, uh, for the first, um, or like very easy, like easy for the first two-thirds of the race, and then the race starts there. Um, so try to keep a pace that it's, uh, where I feel that the effort, it's that I really control it, that I'm not like pushing, that, uh, we are running and we are— if we run faster or slower, that it feels that it's, uh, it's what I want to do that I don't, uh, I don't push it, uh, that it feels natural. And that's, uh, that's how I thought, like, okay, let's, let's see. And, and of course, like, because I, I, I had the speed from, from the short distance, I was thinking that could be a pace that, uh, it already selects a group of people. Um, and then, uh, and then to do like the, the last, um, yeah, uh, third of the race, like really racing. Uh, and yeah, it went well until Jim attack, and then I was like, oh, I should— I like follow, should I keep my plan? And then I tried to follow a bit, and then I was feeling bad, and then I kind of like say, okay, no, I need to reset everything, so go very down, and then like negative thoughts. So it was like, yeah, I didn't execute it as well as I wanted, but it, it ended up well. Yeah.

Yeah, well, so I want to do a brief screen share over here and look, look at some of your race data because your friends at COROS did a pretty detailed dive on your heart rate, your pace, your grade-adjusted pace and everything. And I think this might be interesting to look at, not just from your perspective, but even like, all right, you have a race day plan and then you have an actual execution and where's, where does it vary sometimes, right? So let me, let me actually just pull this up and have a look here. Real brief, high level. So here was some of your heart rate data. I think this was from Zagama itself. But if we're looking at your heart rate zones and it's divided here in a few different zones, is this correct? Is your aerobic endurance zone about 136 to 153?

Yeah, it's, Yeah, if we take like these 4 zones, uh, it will be like, uh, like that. Yeah, yeah. Um, I normally use like 5 zones myself. Yeah. Um, but yeah, if we take like 4 zones, that will be— that would be kind of cool.

Yeah, I think the recovery zone over here is— yeah, exactly. So then if we actually go through the breakdown, I thought this was, this was quite interesting. So it's a breakdown per segment. Where we actually see your heart rate data as well. So the first 30 kilometers, this was interesting to me. At the beginning of the race, your heart rate was indeed quite low. Like, whereas for me, I sort of see it at the start line already, like, going quite up, and like, you're definitely below 90, um, in the early stages, and then it creeps up over here. But the one part that I did notice, I see sometimes your heart rate still spiking up to the 160, 170. I know Jim Walmsley was going out quite hot at the beginning, quite fast, and you and Jim were running together over there. What was that first 60 kilometers when you guys were running together?

Yeah, I think at the beginning it was more like, yeah, we were a group with first Pau and then with Jim, Tom Evans, and Zach Mueller. And it's mostly like you are running fast because you are fresh and it's like all this excitement with all the people in the villages. It's a lot of people at the beginning. Climbs, you start to like, you still like kind of run part of the climbs. So it's more of that. So, um, yeah, the first 30K, I would say you often like, it's, you run much faster the first 30K in UTMB than like Hardrock or other races because of this like kind of public and, and excitement. So yeah, definitely it's like you need to be used to, to go like to, like if you do short races like maybe the, the heart rate is, uh, like at Zegama or like Sierre Zinal, like it's more like 180, something like that. So I think for UTMB, it's important that you are very used to, to, to have that because then if you go like to, to 150, 160 during the race, it feels kind of easy and you don't, you metabolically, you are not working a lot. So it's, uh, because definitely these first kilometers, uh, it's, it's run pretty fast.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And then at some point you decided like, all right, my heart rate seems to be going quite high over here. That you somewhat let Jim Walmsley go and the gap became a little bit further at that point. I saw that you guys were about 5 minutes apart at some point.

Yeah, even like more like 14 minutes. I think he took—

yeah, yeah, wasn't it at some point though like that you almost felt the need to recover, like that you felt like you were going in the red quite a bit and you had to step back a little?

Yeah, that happened actually, uh, after Courmayeur. It's this big climb to Bertone, and then we were like running together and going in a good pace. And after is like this balcony that, uh, we were like also keeping together. But, um, then it's, uh, in the downhill to Arnouba, so before the Grand Col Ferret, um, he did like attack, like he was just going for it. And I was thinking, okay, that's That's too early for me. I, I was thinking it's still like 80 kilometers to go. Uh, I don't want to do that, but I don't want him to, to go too far in front. Uh, so I was a bit doubting, like, what should I do? Should I go or should I stay? And then I started to, to follow him for one, or like to, to try to, to follow for one minute. But since the start of the race, actually, my legs were like hurting. The muscles weren't working well. So then that downhill, it felt like, uh, very, very bad. And then I was saying, okay, no, that's, uh, it feels bad. And then I, I started to have bad thoughts also, like mentally. It's at the end of the night, it's always a kind of hard moment. Then I was thinking, oh, the legs are like just hurting too much, it's still like 70K. Uh, and then I was thinking maybe like, uh, with the, with the COVID effects, like it's still there, and it's still too much, it starts to be long. So I, I was in very like negative thoughts there, and I was saying, okay, no, I need to, to reset, like to, to go down, to go down to, to a very easy pace. So I was going down to like 100 pulls per minute, even lower, uh, on this part, and just going very, very easy, try to, to, to pass that moment. And, um, actually that, uh, uh, happened until, uh, Mathieu Blanchard, who was like chasing behind very, very quick he passed me, and then it was like, uh, okay, like, I, I tried to follow him. I was like, okay, I tried to follow him, go to the next aid station that is here in Champex, and there see how I feel and see how it goes. And actually, him passing me, it switched, uh, mentally, all this state, like, from being super negative to being on racing mood again. And from there, it was like, okay, race is on, like, let's go, let's fight, and and just try to, to, to forget about the legs pain and, uh, and go for it. And then like it was okay, uh, in the uphill I saw that, uh, metabolically was working very well. I could, could push and, and it was on for the next 40K.

Yeah, I, I can imagine that, that, that alone, like the whole part of, of running on your own versus then at that point going at it with someone again, because you basically went from second place to third place and then it was you and Mathieu running together again. Like, I can imagine that that's almost like a second boost of energy, but you had to reset mentally in order to, to get there, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I needed to like, yeah, really reset because yeah, it was like these very negative like thoughts, like, okay, yeah, that's, that's— I don't know if I continue, I don't know if I stop. I like— you always like to you on these, on, on races, but it was like, oh, I don't feel good, like it's hurting, like, and you are like, right, that's what, what I'm doing here, or that blah blah blah. And then like just to have this spine of like, okay, no, it's like I need to race, I need to race. That like, that changed everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at what point did you like— how did that last push go for you?

Um, at some point you decided to make a move that was on an uphill, correct? Yeah, because, um, all the downhills I was feeling very bad since the beginning of the race. Like, uh, the muscles were like Coordination was horrible. Um, it was pain. I didn't feel strength in the legs, so I, I knew that I couldn't like do any move on the downhills. So when Matthew passed me, uh, in the, the next climb, actually I tried to push a bit to see how strong was he in the uphills. Um, I, I saw that I could leave him in the uphill. Then in the downhill, I was seeing like how fast he could be in the downhill to, to, to see how much time he could take me. And then, uh, it's, uh, it's 3 uphills actually there. So the first, it was like that. The second uphill and downhill, we were running together. So I was trying to say, okay, it's now it's time to try to save some energy. And then the last uphill, I need to— if I want to win, I need to really give everything in this uphill, in the, in the last climb, in the Tête aux Bains, uh, and try to make a big gap. Because I know that in the downhill, I, I would lose, uh, pretty much time. And that, that was the strategy, like, to exiting Vallorcine to really push hard in the uphill and then to try to go down controlled because I was feeling very bad on the downhills. Yeah.

Wow. What a race. And it was really exciting all the way to the end. And eventually you see this footage of you running through the city. So many people cheering on and wanting to high five and then being able to break the sub-20-hour barrier. And getting a course record. What, what did it feel like coming through and actually looking back? Because you had a lot of back-to-back races and many of the things actually fell into place this race season. Like, when you look back at this race season, how did it all come together for you?

It's— I, I'm super happy. Like, I, I couldn't— it was just so— like, the plan for me, like, the dream was to say I do a training that it allows me to perform well on short and on long, and, and not only one short and long, but like to alternate short and long races. And, uh, and that was what I— my goal was to see if that plan worked, and it worked well. Like, then, like, I think good results in races, it just validates the idea of the training. So that was my goal, and it did. Like, I'm super happy for for how the, the races went, but I'm mostly happy for how all the training, uh, was going.

Yeah, all the season. Yeah, you put a lot, lot of it into it, and just following some of the training runs and then seeing it being executed on race day, that was— yeah, very well done over there. I have a few questions about some of the tests that I saw you do, because I saw quite a bit of behind-the-scenes footage. When you came into an aid station, you would often sit down and there was someone besides you taking blood samples or taking different samples. Was that like, uh, lactate testing you were doing, or what type of testing were you doing over there?

Since the— this spring, I, I have been talking with a physiologist from, from Spain, uh, Jesus Albert Herms. We have been like thinking about training and, and different things, and he, he wants to do a study about, uh, how the, the, the body, like, it change. And, uh, in, in different terms, like, uh, on biology, like all the cells, how they change, like on, on the physiological levels, on, on different kind of, of things. So he was doing some tests, uh, before and after Gama. And then at 15B, like, he was doing like a lot of tests, like before and after. Very interesting to see what the results are and, and, and the, the feeling to, to the, the, the gut, to, to the, the perception, to the, the neuromuscular system, uh, and then like more the metabolic side. And then we're thinking it would be nice to do this test or like some, not everything, but some test during the, the race. But the two team B, you can only have one person doing your assistance. So he was doing both, like he was just putting all the food there. And then when I arrived, like I was just sitting, starting giving him my finger and, and just drinking and taking care of, of the aid station., and, uh, and he was like taking samples, uh, on, on the race. It was mostly like, um, lactate, um, glucose and cholesterol. So he was doing this, um, that was kind of the time he had like to, to do test. And, um, and then, uh, we were also like commenting, like he, he, he didn't see the results at the moment because like he was like focused on just doing it and, and that. But I was telling him like about like, I, I feel like that., uh, in the last section and, and, uh, he was saying, okay, it would be good maybe to eat this or to eat that, uh, for, for how you feel. Yeah.

So at this point you, you didn't necessarily adjust much of your race strategy based on the lactate results that were coming in at that point, right?

Or, yeah, no, I, I, I didn't know the results. Like, uh, he was just like recording on the machine and then like the day after, like we were like looking at it. So it was mostly like not to. Not to pace the race, but just to, to understand, yeah, more like what are the changes on, on physiological like levels during, during a long race.

Yeah. What, um, it's so funny though that he was doing everything, like he seemed like he was really busy on race day over there, like poking you at the food and this and that. So I saw some photos from your food setup over there. I saw some rice balls, I saw some mini burritos and whatnot. Like what works well for you during an ultra when you're actually eating? I see you're taking in gels, I think Martin gels. I see some of the Martin bars, which I actually recently tried as well.

Like, what works for you on race day and how has that evolved over the years? Well, it's evolved like a lot. Like, before I was like doing bullshit, like really bullshit. Like, I was just having— eating anything that I could find, and, and, and I had like always gastrointestinal problems, uh, until kind of this year where it was like, okay, I need to plan a bit. They stations. The plan was to actually, at UTMB, because also it's a bit warmer than, for example, Hardrock, and, and the pace is a bit higher, I was thinking, okay, the pace is like, uh, uh, on, um, on drink. So I was drinking like, uh, carbohydrates. Uh, it's, it's a mix, like, it's called a Mix, uh, 320 from Ortel. Uh, half a liter of water with, um, almost 80 grams of carbohydrates. And that was, uh, every hour., um, and then every second hour I was adding a bit of protein, uh, on that, uh, but keeping this base of like every hour half a liter with these 80, 80 grams of carbohydrates. And then I was taking either gels or bars when I wanted spike, like when I think, okay, now it's a, an uphill, I need to, to, to work more hard, or now it's a place when I want to go faster. Then before that, I was taking like, um, a gel or a bar that it's, uh, it's also like a lot of carbs in that bar. Um, and very fast carbs, like sugar. Um, uh, so that was kind of the idea. Then it was to maintain a base. I, I'm very like, uh, I, my metabolism, my base metabolism is a fat metabolism. Like, that's, I always train like for I never eat when training. I, I can go like 6, 7, 8, 10 hours. I never take anything. And so I have a very, like, a good fat metabolism. So then I was saying I need to eat fat during the race. So I was taking, uh, uh, some slower carbs of rice or potato with, uh, avocado or nuts. Uh, so I had this, uh, these things more like to entertain all the, the base level. Um, and then other than that, uh, just like I took, um, 2 caffeine gels, one at the kind of second half of the night, uh, and then one, um, at before the last uphill.

So that was kind of the, the strategy.

Mm-hmm.

Get some caffeine for caffeine indeed, right before that last uphill. That will, yeah, keep you mentally sharp. That's a, that's a good one. What about electrolyte intake?

Do you take any additional salt or electrolyte pills? No, like, uh, no, I, I didn't take anything here. It's not that warm. Uh, it's warm, but like, uh, uh, no, like with the, the small sodium that is already in the, in the drink and it was, it was enough.

Talk to me more about the, the fasted running, because I know in training you, you have indeed mentioned previously, I don't. Eat much before my run, sometimes during my runs. How is— like, was that always from the beginning with you? Because I heard some stories even when you would go out with your mom on the trail sometimes for a long time, even not bringing food but also not bringing water sometimes. Like, some of these things are adaptable, but you also want to ease into some of this, right?

Like, how has that evolved over the years? Yeah, like, it's I, I think when it comes to, to, to that, often we do the mistake to say, okay, this guy is doing this, I, I will start next week to do that for my next race that is in 4 weeks. That the adaptations don't happen like that. Like adaptations take time. So, uh, especially when it comes that it's, when it comes to, to, to the metabolism, like fat or, or, or glycogen, like some part is genetic and you cannot change and some part you can train a bit, but it takes years of that. And, and same with water. Like if you want to be able to not drink during trainings or for long hours, you need to have a very, like the, the, the renal function needs to be very adapted to that. And that's something that it's built through years. If you try to do that without these adaptations, you will probably have like serious problems, uh, when it comes to, to, to the renal function. So, uh, I think that's things that, uh, yeah, I started to do when I was a kid, uh, Yeah, because you go to the mountains and you cannot bring everything you want.

So like, it just gets, gets used to that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think. And that's the part too, that all of these are different stresses to the body. They can be trained in certain ways. We just want to be strategic about it and not overdo it too much either. Right? You want to like go about all of these different things Yeah, the body is very adaptable, like we talked about last time as well, whether it's with heat acclimation or whether it's with altitude.

Same with calorie intake. It's just you've got about— you need to be in that— yeah, you need to be in this sweet spot because if you are doing too much, then the body will say just like a protection and, and, and not adapt. And, and if you are doing too little, then like the body will say, okay, I, I don't need to adapt, like it's that easy. So you want to be at that point when it comes to intake of food, when it comes to everything. And that's something that, it's hard to find, but once you find it, I think it's, it's when you can make adaptations. And, and that also evolves during a season. Like, uh, probably at the beginning of the season, like, you are able to, to put more efforts and to recover better. At the end of the season, you need to be more aware about, like, uh, these, uh, yeah, the recovery of everything. So, like, thresholds is not something that it's stable for your life, is not stable for a year, it's, it's something that it variates almost every day. So like you need to be aware of that. Like it's, uh, let's say the, if your lactate threshold is like, uh, uh, whatever, 2.5, that don't mean that it will be 2.5 today and in 2 months and in 6 months. Like that will change like every week. So, and you cannot do test every day, but you need to be aware about the sensations that, that means and, and try to, to build with that. So I think it's, uh, either you have like a, a super science team behind that is doing like test, like every day to you that that don't exist, or you try to, to be like, um, some sensitivity with, uh, with how you feel and relate to, to, to all these things you want to improve.

Well said. I want to talk a little bit more about mindset and stress. We previously talked about it, but there's a few follow-up questions on, on this topic because I read in your book and also in your documentary that that at certain times in your life you have experienced higher stress levels and even anxiety for several years. You've, you've probably talked about this. What are some of the ways that has helped you cope with anxiety and with stress over the years?

Yeah, you see it very easy afterwards. Um, I would say when you have anxiety, like, you don't realize that is that you just like are in dealing with it, but you don't think it's anxiety. So, actually, you think it's just like, you think it's momentaneous things that they are trigger, but it's something that it's deeper. So, for me, I mean, it was, I'm a very introvert person and like living in with all this exposure, it's something that it took me and still take me a lot of effort, but I know how to, to deal with it much better now. But I would say until I moved from France to Norway, I, I didn't overcome the anxiety. Like, uh, I know that the years I was living in, in France, like, I was, uh, I was racing, I was performing, I was like happy, but I, I had anxiety almost all the time. Uh, it's something that it was just on me and, and my stress levels were high, even if I'm a very calm person or like rationally I'm very calm, but inside it was working a lot. And that was like to move out, like it was, it was the thing that really like took away anxiety from me. And now I know, okay, if I want to go to crowded places or like things like that, I need to, to count them very well so I don't trigger that again and to try to, to do it in a way that I know it's, it's reasonable and it's not like every, yeah, every week or something like that.

Yeah, so this was one of your reasons that you had moved to Norway, right? Kind of away from, from the big circus. And I think you have also limited your amount of days that you were doing all sorts of travel and all sorts of activities to, to limit it within a certain window. Is that correct?

Like that you would kind of batch that in? Yeah, well, here is two things. One is for that, like, um, uh, one is for performance. I want to train, I want to, to, to be home, I want to, to be training well. And, and then, uh, also, uh, I, I don't want to, to be exposed to that all the time. So I, I try to have times where I'm just kind of, uh, uh, just training and, and not thinking about that. And then if I need to do things, I, I put like on a window, okay, I know that now it will be these X days that it will be like that. And I can handle it. And then it's also like, uh, I'm more like on an environmental, like, concern. Like, I don't want to be traveling around, like, all the time because that's, like, kind of, uh, yeah, it's very bad for the planet. So I just try to, to rationalize that to, to a few moments every year, and that's some moments that, that really make sense for me, kind of.

So for you If you experience certain higher stress levels, is it like, do you do some meditation or some yoga or some journaling, or is it more going to the mountains and going for a run?

Like, how do you deal with this? Well, like, how did I deal at the moment? It was the wrong way. Like, for years, uh, it was like, um, I don't like alcohol. I, I, I don't like the taste. And for Uh, yeah, a few years I was drinking a lot after every race, and that was a response to that, uh, to deal with it. And also, like, uh, I was sometimes, especially at the beginning when I was going to the mountains, taking some risks that they were very stupid, uh, so to feel the adrenaline on that. So it was this rush of adrenaline coming from it, um, and that was the way I dealt with, uh, with anxiety, uh, for, for for a few years. Um, now, uh, now I think it's more I know what can trigger me that, and I don't want to go to get to that point. So it's just like try to, to avoid it. And then it's just like to, to be more like to— yeah, I think it's more of the self-knowledge of knowing, okay, I, I know that will trigger, so I say no before it happens. Or, or if I see that I'm going there, I just calm, stop, and go away from it. So I think it's mostly this self-awareness. That's— Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because, yeah, I think, yeah, I think now it's working well for me that way. That's good. I'm very happy that you have found a nice balance. And it looks like you and Emily live in a beautiful place now in Norway with your family, with a lot of space around you and a garden.

It seems like a nice place to live for the mind as well. Yeah. Connection to nature, it's so important, I think. I love mountains. I could not live— if I go to a city, I can spend some hours there before I feel like, okay, I want to get out from here. I want this connection to mountains. But I think in general, we need much more connection to nature, to the air, to the elements, The touch of the sand, of the grass. It's something that for, and it's proved like for stress, for like the wellbeing, not, yeah, both psychologically and physically. It's something that we need to do more. We need connection to nature to be healthy and we are living more and more in cities.

So it's kind of the opposite.

Absolutely.

I can imagine. Real brief, how is your approach to strength training these days? Like, I see, I see quite a bit of athletes, let's say they have 8 hours a week available. They just go run 8 hours a week and that's it. Whereas, yeah, in an ideal world, there might be some strength training involved or some mobility or some cross-training.

Like, what is your current approach to strength training, mobility, and cross-training? Cross-training I do a lot because like I do 6 months basically skiing. Um, that's right. So, um, that's— and then like for example now, uh, when recovering I'm going to run but I'm going to scramble. So like it's more like climbing and you move the body, you, you like, you go super slow because it's technical. So it's more like mobility and like also strength because it's like you are using muscles differently. Um, and Actually, strength, strength, I, I don't do any, um, uh, like on a gym, but what I do a lot is like go climbing or like, uh, also like doing activities like skiing and things like that, that it, uh, it really, yeah, uses much more the, the muscles. And then just if I have something like specific, like for example when I dislocated my shoulders, then I was doing like specific training like on strength for the shoulders, or if I have a problem in one leg, I will like do a program just for that. But the, the basis is just to, to do other activities that allows me to, to be doing strength and, and mobility.

Uh, and then it's fun because it's just out and climbing. Do you have any advice to non-elite runners for ways to integrate strength or mobility? Because it sounds as you're really doing it more in a playful way that it, it, like, it's probably good for you mentally to mix it up, but it also brings you excitement and it still works out the muscles.

Do you have any, any advice to the non-elite runner here? Yeah, especially like if some people like to go to the gym, but for many, especially runners, they don't like to go to the gym. It's, it's boring, you don't feed well there or whatever. And, and I think like to do these activities, like just to, to, to go to the climbing gym, like to, to go and and try some boulder problems and try to climb there, it will be very fun. And it's, and you are building like strength and you are building like the coordination and like mobility and it's very interesting. Or like do other activities that they involve like more and more strength that can be, I don't know, like many of the throws or things like that. Or like if you go like Probably some sports in the sea or biking too, that you can be working more the muscle side. So like, I think find activities that, that, yeah, they are much more harder on a muscular level and that you, you find fun, like you, you are enjoying it, and to, to try to, to integrate that into your, your plan. And that can be things also that you do with your family, because if you go like to climb, like you can go use your family with your kids, with your wife. And it's not just like, okay, go to train, I go to the gym and that, but you just go, okay, this weekend or this afternoon we can go to the climbing gym and spend a couple of hours there, have fun, and same time it's, it's helping my training.

Yeah, even just putting the kid on the back is already cross-training when you're heading up the trails, right? I've seen you do that as well, skiing or— yeah. Um, let's talk about failure for one second because I know you aim for many high goals goals, and many times you accomplish it, yet sometimes you might miss the goal as well. How has failure grown you as an athlete, or what, what are some of your favorite failures that you experience and set you up for success later?

Well, like, um, failure, it's, it's, it's there all the time, like, and it's important, and, and it's, uh, it's a part of the game, it's a part of the journey. And it's where probably you analyze better. Uh, when it's only success, like, you will say, okay, it was good, but that's kind of the only overtake. Uh, if you have like failure, like, you will say, okay, try to analyze, uh, what's been good, what's been wrong, how can I improve? And it's, it's that way that you, you can, um, yeah, you can grow as a, as an athlete, as a person, wherever. Um, so, uh, in, in my career, I would say like, um, uh, things that, uh, like I remember when I was younger, uh, it was like with anger, like, uh, when it was like missing a race or like, oh, I was in good shape and I had— I did this mistake, or I, I, uh, especially in ski, like a lot of technical problems. It's like, it's anger. You are there like, oh Yeah, you are not happy at all. Um, and then over the years it's been more like, uh, just to know that a race or a project, it's, it's a part of the, the journey. Uh, but it's only a part, it's not the entire, uh, journey. So like, if, uh, if you have done a, a good training, if you have like learned and improve a lot during that process, and then the race, the, the final project goes well, it's just like this part that goes well. If it goes bad, like, it's, uh, it's only that part that goes bad. Like, it's, it's not the entire journey. So it's just like, uh, and yeah, it's good days, it's bad days, it's things that you learn, and, and it's just like a part of it. And I think it's very important to, yeah, not focus too much on the outcome of the result, but to focus on, on, on the journey. And the journey is what you have learned, what you have achieve personally through all this, this process. And I would say always focus on the process, not focus on the, on the outcome, not focus on the result. And the result at the end is just like, as I mentioned before, validation of, of that process, but is not the only validation. So that's to rationalize that way. I think it's, it's a big part of dealing and taking the best of, uh, of failure. Like, to take the— yeah, to try to analyze and not, not be upset and not be obsessed about, uh, about the result, but just to, to try to, to see what's been good, what's been bad, and how you can do better the next time.

Spot on. We can learn so much from the process alone, like going through some of these training cycles. And yeah, indeed, the, the race, it's just one race day and a lot of different things can happen there. Very well said. I want to be respectful of your time. I have two more questions over here. One was last time we talked about, you mentioned the importance of low-intensity training and also adding in some higher intensity at the right time as well. How would you say would someone go about finding out what that right balance is? Because we still see quite a few people training in that yellow zone, right? How do you know how much to train at the lower intensity and how much to train in that higher intensity zone?

Yeah, it would, I, I would say like it depends a lot of, uh, your way to deal with, um, the, the charges. Some people can deal a lot with high intensity and, and will be able to do high intensity, uh, for very long, but they will struggle with the volume. Some people will be the opposite. They will like, be able to do a lot of volume, but when they do a lot of intensity, they get injured. So first, like, know who you are. Like, that's the first question. Like, when it comes to training, it's not like, what's the, the, the typical plan? No, like, typical plan is, it's for a typical person that don't exist. So like, try to understand who you are. Like, what's your physiology? What's your capacities? What's your adaptation from the past and your everything like that? And then from there, build.. And that building is like try to see, okay, I, I have these projects, the races, uh, and so with my capacities, uh, maybe it's good that I work on this, uh, yellow zone for long before I start to do intensity, or it's better that I do like polarized from the beginning, or it's better that I do, uh, more like volume. And then like, that's something that you need to figure out with your capacities. Uh, but then like I Uh, that's more far away in the season. When it gets more into the racing moment, I think there it's more important to, to really take care about these days, uh, to say, okay, it's, uh, you want to be in shape and fresh for the races. It's, it's not that you are racing the training, you need to race the races. And for that, you need to, to be able to, to push very hard physically, mentally, the day of the race. And if you are doing that every day on training, The day of the race, it will be empty. Um, so train well, but never to the, to the exhaustion. Like train until a point that you feel like, uh, you have something left and then, uh, go easy. Like, uh, just enjoy the, the, the easy days and, and recover until, until your next hard training. And that I think on race season is the, is the most important.

Yeah. So well said. That's why I also think I don't see you training that zone 5 red zone quite much.

It's very, very minimal that I ever see you hit there. Yeah, I, I, I know I get injured. Like, if I train like at that speed, I, I will get injured very quick. So I, I, I can do a lot of tempo, I can do a lot of threshold, but if I hit the, the, the higher intensity, I get injured.

So I know that I don't touch it. There you go. There are quite a few people listening to this podcast who run a variety of different terrain, but also some who only run road. Sometimes I notice people get intimidated by trail running or by mountain running. Do you have any thoughts over here on advice for people wanting to get more comfortable and more into trail running and not, not get too intimidated, but more truly enjoying the, the trail and even the ultra distance senses here?

I think it's mostly to not be afraid of walking. Like, walking is a part of, of trail running and is a part of like this sport. And, and we think that we need to run all the time, and then we can feel intimidated of like, wow, I need to run over this mountain, over that. And it's like, no, it's, it's okay to walk, it's okay to hike, and just like go. And, and it's, it's like a fast hiking, like I would say, like take it like that way. And start like doing it that way, and then you go faster, and then you would eventually run. But don't think about like racing the mountains by just like having a nice hike and then just like eventually go faster. And, and I think it's more like, I think when it comes from road running where it's all about, or big part about, like the times and like the pace, and like, uh, you are a, a 2:10 or a 2:20 or a 3 or a 4 hours marathon, like that's defines you as a, as a, as an athlete in, in the roads. In the trails, not like that way. It's like, um, you cannot think about the pace, you cannot think about, about these times. It's just like, okay, I want to go to this mountain and I want to, to climb it and going down, and then you can do that hiking. And I think, yeah, that's, uh, for the transition is to forget about like pace and to, and to just not be afraid of walking.

Then, yeah, running will come. Incredibly well said, Kilian. Thank you so much for sharing all your insights. I really, really enjoy our conversations over here. It's like so refreshing to hear someone like you say some of these things as well. Like, obviously you have trained for many different years, but even you going back to some of these basic fundamentals that that's so important for levels, for athletes of all different levels, is great to hear here.

Do you have any closing thoughts that you want to share with the audience before we sign off here? Um, just that I think we sometimes, like, we, we put a lot of, um, uh, weight on what we are doing, like training and like competitions, and like if you are doing the race or you're training that, and like, uh, bad days. And, and it's— we need to remember at the end of the day that we are doing that because we love it, because it— we like it. And that's the most important to not forget. Like, when you are suffering and you are obsessed about, uh, about the thing, just like say, okay, why I'm doing that on the first time? It's just because I love it and, and I have the health to do it and I have the, the, the possibility of doing it. So like, if it goes wrong, I'm still doing something that is amazing, that I love it. So just like, I think that's That's the base, like, that we are able to do something that we love it, and we need to, to remind that every day we are training or racing.

Absolutely. We're so fortunate we're able to do this. Kilian, thank you so much. I'll make sure to add links to your website, to your foundation.

Um, real brief, actually, you have now a podcast as well, right? Yeah, we are doing a podcast, like, actually it's called, uh, Athlete Climate Academy. So we are like interviewing a lot of different experts, scientists, like PhDs, engineers about different topics on climate and environmental science. Our big race, our big fight will be like climate change.

So we try to educate ourselves on what are the tools that we will need for that. Absolutely. I'll make sure to link to that as well. I listened to several episodes on my runs in the last few weeks. That was really well done, and it's actually nice to hear you hosting a podcast over there.

And I'll make sure to link to your new apparel and footwear company, Normal, as well. What— sorry, when is that one launching?

We are launching in, uh, now in the fall, so like just, uh, just a few weeks. So, uh, yeah, we are very excited. Very excited. We can't wait to see that launch as well. Thanks so much, and we'll talk again soon. Thank you. All right, bye. Hey there, just a few closing comments. I hope you enjoyed my second conversation with Kilian, and I would love to hear from you in the comments. What was one of your favorite lessons, quotes, or takeaways from this episode? Please let me know in the comments on YouTube, and it really becomes a nice compilation of takeaways from the community, really. Also, every week Every week I write a newsletter for Extramilest. If you would like to receive that in your inbox with training tips and race strategies from myself, but also from other different podcast guests, you can subscribe at extramilest.com. If you have not heard my first conversation with Kilian, I can highly recommend it. It was about training adaptation, about training intensity, about heat, about acclimation to altitude, and a variety of other topics. You can find it over here on YouTube, or you can find it on your favorite podcast platforms, and I'll make sure to leave a link below as well.

All right, have fun out there on your runs. Later!