#57: How to Improve As A Runner, 4:53 to 3:33 Marathon at age 63, with Andrea Hudson | MAF Training

Look at some of the things, the non-running things. Are you sleeping well? Is your diet relatively— is it working for you? I don't drink any alcohol, but that would be something where somebody could have issues with. Stress in general, try to minimize your stress. I was listening to Walter and he said your run should be enjoyable. And that's something I had experienced too when I did just no speed training, nothing. It was enjoyable. It's a long-term thing. It's not like a quick fix. You're going to like, oh, you're going to do this and then a month from now you're going to have a marathon. PR. That is not gonna happen.

Today my guest is Andrea Hudson. She's a 63-year-old woman, a runner who actually runs very strong. Recently she ran a 3:33 personal best marathon at the Berlin Marathon, so that was really exciting. My name is Floris Gierman, and in this Extra Mileage Show I interviewed different guests about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. And in today's conversation with Andrea, we discuss her running journey over the years, how she was able to bring her marathon times down from a 5-hour marathon all the way to 3:33, and she's still not done improving. This was this year that she actually ran that PB, so exciting months and years ahead for her over here. Andrea is a member of our Personal Best Running coaching program, so it's been really fun to actually follow her journey. She enrolled in 2020 already, so I've been able to follow her running journey and her improvements over here over several years right now. If you want to find out more about the Personal Best Program, check out pbprogram.com. We have hundreds of athletes from all around the world improving significantly in their running, and these are marathon runners, these are 5K runners, these are ultra marathoners, half marathoners, all different ages and different running levels from beginner to advanced. So we help you as a runner to improve your health, and from that also your running times. And we really use some of the MAF low heart rate training, um, concepts as some of the fundamentals in this training here. The program comes with flexible training schedules, my best training videos that are available in here, a private community of like-minded athletes, and twice a week I also co-host group Zoom calls with myself and two other PB Zoom coaches. We offer a full 60-day money-back guarantee. So there's zero risk to get involved. If you would like to learn more, check out pbprogram.com. Hope you enjoy my conversation with Andrea Hudson. Earlier you were talking about, or before we started recording, you were talking about group runs and that you find joy in that. Do you do a lot of runs as a group run or do you run mostly solo or a combination of?

I am really bad. I run with all different kinds of groups. I'm like married to one group and I'm like, oh, like I'm going to do whatever they do. Especially with the low heart rate training or using a trainer, you can't really fit in the group as well. But like, I have like an old people running group that I run with sometimes. Then I have the running store. They have a Wednesday morning 6 o'clock group run where they give you a bagel afterwards, and I bring it home to my husband so he doesn't feel so left out. And I have a Dallas running group, running group I run with. And then there's a splitter off that's like— they call it BRC, Beer Running Group. I do not drink beer, and I'm not a boy either, but I run— I ran with them today. And then I have another group, they always run 20 miles Saturday and Sunday. So if I feel like that's what I want to do, I join them. So I'm really fortunate to have it.

It is such a good way of getting your miles in, and your miles go by so quickly because I sometimes almost feel it's like you're catching up with a friend, and at the same time you're actually putting in some running So it's, yeah.

Yeah. So today was totally like that where if you look on my Tuesday run, I had a 1-mile on, 1-mile off, 18-mile solitary run. Uh-huh. It was okay because I had to focus on doing the different paces. Yeah. So my mind had something, but if it was 18 miles, just easy pace, is that a little different?

Yeah. Sometimes they can be long for sure. For sure. Let's, let's, um, backtrack a little bit and talk about some of your earlier running, because I think like background of a runner is sometimes important and kind of good for people to know just to get an understanding of where the runner started from. Like, have you always been a runner and what, at what age did you start getting more serious into it? Because to my understanding, the marathons didn't start until a bit later, right? So tell me a bit more here.

I ran my first race at the age of 23. That was the Oakland Half Marathon. I was completely unprepared, undertrained, showed up with a cotton t-shirt in the pouring rain, and I finished. I want to say the time said 2 hours and 2 minutes. That was really— and then I stopped.

That was that.

Yeah, that was that. Okay. I actually, I learned a lot from that race because the minute I was done, and it was really hard, I said, oh, that was only a half marathon. So I am not a good encourager of myself. But I deep down knew that at one point I did want to run a marathon. I knew that was just aligned with who I wanted to be or who I thought I was. So fast forward to the age of 40, and I had a friend that said, hey, Andrea, I want to run this 5K. And I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? And I did. And then he said, hey, you want to do another one? And I did. So, and then we progressed to like 10K and 15K and half marathon and a marathon relay, and then the marathon. So that was in the short from August to February.

There you go.

There was no watch, no heart rate. It was basically, and it was all easy training, all easy running. And he had run many marathons before. So at some point he said, we're gonna do some speed training now. And I'm like, what's that? He said, hey, you run from this point to that point as fast as you can.

I'm like, okay, there you go.

And we based the, um, predicted finish time on my 5K time, and that would have been 3:50. So I thought, okay, well, I'm going to be smart about this. My main first goal, number one, is to finish. The goal is under 4 hours, and then the A goal was 3:50 would've been the qualifying time for my age for Boston at the time. So he dropped out of the race. So there I was, watchless, running on, and oddly enough, my splits were really right on, right on time. So then I come to the halfway point and I'd never run any further than that. I threw off my extra sweatshirt and pretend I'm in a new race. Keep moving. And then I started having some shoe issues towards the end, and I lost about 2 or 3 minutes at the very end. So my finish time was 3:53.

That's very good for your first marathon.

And I said I failed because I didn't—

no, but yeah, that was—

it was good.

Yeah, it really was. So I was a little bit surprised to hear you say that you did a lot of low intensity running before this or slow running before this? Honestly, you were training with someone who was more experienced because a lot of first-time marathoners, their training is all over the place with quite a bit of their runs at a really high intensity.

So no, no, they're just races. Like maybe every other weekend I had a race.

Right on.

And so I don't know what my pacing was because I don't have a watch.

So how did it progress from there? You were 40, ran your first marathon, 3:52. Why did you stop?

Well, I got— if I was okay, I'm not supposed to run Boston, so I just kind of— I still kept running around the lake like 9, 10 miles every Sunday. And then I was newly single and I started dating somebody, so just that kind of was put on the back burner. I continued to just kind of sort of jog, and then I entered college at the age of 45. Nice. And I ran for stress management. It was very stressful to be in nursing school, so I ran with these different groups. So, and just for social, and I think we— I ran pretty hard.

Yeah, just to get, get all of the energy out.

Yeah. And then I graduated from nursing school in 2007 and started working as a nurse, and my feet were hurting all the time. Yeah, because you're standing on your feet 12 hours, walking, like hauling people in and out of the bed. So, so I pretty much stopped running. So for 7 years I was like working as a nurse, being in nurse practitioner school, and having 3 kids. Uh, just like maybe jog a little bit.

Yeah. And, and how did it— what sparked the fire again to go for marathon number 2?

Well, I thought I wanted to reincorporate running into my life. I needed something to, for maybe stress management or something to give my life meaning or structure or joy or those kind of things. So I signed up for a half marathon in the Alps because I thought that would be really cool and really fun. And it would motivate me to train because you had to train.

Oh yeah, especially there.

So, I'm still just running, and I signed up with this running training program local here. So, and I had a friend, Angela, and Angela, I did whatever Angela did. And Angela signed up for the full marathon after the half there. She didn't do that one. And I signed up too. So, here I am knowing Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. So they had— I did like speed workouts and intervals, and I'm like, you want me to do what? It was really bad. So needless to say that marathon went very poorly. It was like 4 hours and 53 minutes. So, and I was— I had a cough too, so it was just bad.

So this was like an hour slower than your marathon several years before. Yep. But it was also like the training had been much different at that point too, it sounds like.

Well, there was like a long period of inactivity. Yeah, but when I was younger, I had little kids, lifting them and doing yoga and lifting weights and just being a completely different person to this now middle-aged— but before I was middle-aged too, but middle-aged skinny fat, um, couch potato. So, so I had— that was a big learning curve to find out what works for me, like what kind of shoes work for me, what kind of training schedule, like what time of the day would work for me. Like in the evening, not so much. My husband didn't like that. In the morning at 5:15, that was too early. I would crash at work. So 6 o'clock is a really good time for me, unless now I can go earlier. But at that—

yeah, yeah, right on. And so, because you've come a really long way from close to a 5-hour marathon, you're able to break it down and bring it down Sub 4 and much further, like at a new PB at the recent Berlin Marathon here as well. So describe a little bit more about that journey the last few years, because you have really picked it up a notch. You have kicked up the training volume, your training approach. You discovered heart rate training. Let's talk a little bit more about how that transition was from that period, because I think that will be—

I was just always like, okay, I did poorly and I'm like, I got to do better. I know I can do better. So I did not let that get me down. I was just like, we'll do something different. We'll just try again. And I think in 2018, I signed up with the Runners Connect, like a training thing where they say, oh, if you're injured all the time, follow our training plan. We'll make it so it's right for you. And my chiropractor also said, Andrea, you should not be running with groups. And also don't use those HOKA shoes, wear something else. So those 3 things kind of sort of helped me not be injured. And then I ran, I think, a 4:22 in Big Sur. And then fast forward to December, I ran a 3:58 in Dallas.

So that was— what year was that?

The 3:58?

2018.

2018. Yeah. That was 20 minutes under the Boston qualifying time at the time. So I was like, okay.

What was your age at that point?

59, maybe.

Yeah. Okay. I think that's good to put things in perspective.

Yeah. So I still know that that is not like where I know I have more in me, that that's not like the best I can do. So, so then I, for 2019, I had my first ultra. That was my first 50 miler. And that one was really interesting. And then I had— then I got injured. So New York City was a little slower. Yeah. And then, then the pandemic happened. I was supposed to run Boston and Bixer in 2020, and I ran the Goggins Challenge and the virtual Boston, the Fort Worth Marathon.

That was surely a change of plans.

Yeah. So, I mean, everybody had that. That was like universal, universal experience that we're now on plan B and that's just how it is.

Yeah. Well, and, and then your times did start to come down further and further again and your training volume and your training consistency.

Yeah, it was, I am consistent. I picked up like with like the Goggins Challenge or doing the low heart rate training is I signed up with your program during the pandemic. I said, this is a good time to try this and I really appreciate you. So I thought, well, I'll give this a try. And so I do well using the low heart rate, just focus on mileage during my summertime. And then I tend to really have good fall.

Well, so, so was that kind of the first experience for you starting to run with a heart rate monitor, or had you been running with a heart rate monitor before that?

I had one before, but it was not really recording. It wasn't really working well. I have small wrists, so that didn't work. So then I did have this chest strap and, and I started running. Like, I think I gave myself extra 5 points.

So, so what, what was that like for you to start out? Because at that point you were doing 180 minus your age plus 5.

Is that correct? Uh, so that was what, that would've been 180, 120. I think I gave myself extra. I don't know what I gave. I think I was running around 130.

Yeah. Because, because especially for athletes in their 50s, 60s and beyond, like I think for younger athletes, indeed, it's like 180 minus age, they get a lot higher number. And as you age, yes, your heart rate zones are changing. But we definitely see it being more challenging for athletes in the 50s, 60s, and beyond that, like there, that plus 5 or plus 10 sometimes is needed.

Some of that modification. Yeah. So in my opinion, it should be like more of a bell curve rather than a, a, a straight slope. Mm-hmm. But I am not the organizer here. I'm not a track, but I did get my lactate levels analyzed. So I have like where I go, like, this is what my body, where I'm supposed to be running. So yeah, still use those values most of the time. Hmm.

Yeah. Because I'm seeing some of the runs on Strava for you, like, yes, you're running your marathons at a 150 heart rate. I sometimes see a 155 heart rate, but some of your recovery runs are like 11-minute miles and at 113 beats heart, heart rate average. So you definitely, definitely have your hard days and you make 'em harder, but then your recovery runs. In your meth runs, like I'm definitely seeing a lot lower intensity there.

Absolutely. Yeah. So, so that's how it seems to work well for me and I'm still improving, so I don't feel like I need to do something drastically different.

I know there's some stuff I can still add that I'm not doing yet, but what were some of those marathons after that, like for you, like after you started training more consistently with low heart rate, you were able to run more training volume, you started experimenting with carbon plated shoes, like all of these different things to further shave down time. How did, how did those marathons after that progress? Because I remember seeing like marathons in the 3:45s, then I started seeing it going to the low 3:30s.

So, so tell us a bit further about, yeah, actually, um, 2021, I ran the Woodlands Marathon and with carbon-plated, the Next%, the pink ones. And I knew, and I was a really good marathoner. I had like, my mantra was just let the pace come to me. I wasn't really sure what I could do. And I thought, I think I can do a 3:30, 3:48. I thought that was possible. And I was like extra ahead of schedule. I knew that was going to work. And then in the last mile, I got tripped by these walkers.

I remember, I remember seeing the bloody photo in the Facebook group after.

Luckily, this other runner helped me up and ran with me a little bit, and I knew that I was ahead of schedule and these people were not going to ruin my marathon. Yeah, I picked up the pace and, um, came in at 3:45. Wow. So that was a personal best for me. And it was, um, yeah, 5 minutes. I'm now in the men's qualifying range for Boston.

That's incredible. That's so good.

So yeah, it was really good. I was like, it was a really, really good race.

Everything looked good about that race until indeed those two people tried to cross in front of you, you tripping. And I remember seeing that photo afterwards. With blood all over your face. I was like, Andrea, what happened? It really looked like brutal.

It was bad. It was so bad. And they put me in the wheelchair and then they immediately— I go into nurse mode and I say, heck, not pregnant, no allergies, I'm vaccinated, I want to go home.

Yeah, well, I'm glad, glad that that all worked out.

And then some of the bigger world majors Then I had, I had Boston in the fall. So that was my first Boston. And I, the weather was a little warm, so it was a little slower than I had wished for, but I still, it was another PR. It was 3:43.

Mm-hmm. Shaving off those minutes.

Yeah. So it's like, it's a little, little bits at a time. And then I ran Dallas the same year. Because it dawned on me that I had a chance to get invited to that Wanda World Championship.

So the London Marathon, that was right.

So the whole time I was running Dallas because it was on the list, and I was ranked pretty good in Boston because it was a smaller field. So I was number 15 in my age group. I thought, oh, this is nice. And So the whole time I ran Dallas, I was like, I gotta, I wanna be invited to London. I wanna be invited to London. And I ran 3:38.

Yes. So then you got into 30s, 3:30.

Yes.

So yes.

So then I got invited. I was like number 10 in that, in that pool. And I did about, had about 15 seconds faster the second Boston I did in the spring. And then I was 10 minutes slower than I did Big Sur. So I was very happy with that time and fast forward to now when I had Berlin and London.

So I had a little back to back to back. You like that one? Yeah. I know you do. Good for me. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so what was your training like going in there? What was your training volume? What, how much high intensity, how much low intensity? Like what were some of your key differences from that training cycle?

So yeah, when I was in Holland this summer, I would do a lot of like two a days because I had the time and it felt like it was nice. So like I enjoyed that.

Yeah, that, that's good. Let's go back to training volume for a little bit because I think that'll be interesting to hear. So what was your training volume? How many hours? What distance? How much high intensity, low intensity?

The distance was about 60 miles a week, was my— what I was aiming for, and I was comfortable with that. I'm not sure about the hours. So, and I usually had like a long— I had quite a few long workouts on Tuesdays, which I don't work on Tuesdays. So I had 12, 14, up to 18, I think, workouts on Tuesdays, and then a long run on the weekends, or long run with a Fast finish or stuff like that.

And on your Strava too, I see every day you're working out. It's like you're doing something like consistently 7 days a week. I see all 20, all 28 are dots. Uh, yes, it's for between 8 and 11 hours. I often see in there, but it does seem like even if it's a recovery or like just some cross-training or something else. So what in addition to running were you doing?

Uh, just like strength training, like lunges, um, planks, um, different kinds of lunges, um, Bulgarian split squats, good mornings, things like that. So those are— and I actually have weights at work now, so I can, if I don't get to it in the morning, I can do it at lunchtime. That's good. I have now started to do my exercises at the airport, so I do with the travels and I have like other people, they copy me now.

Perfect. That works.

So you have to, I try to fit it in when, where I am. Yeah. Usually at the end of the day, I'm tired. I'm see lots of patients. I'm worn out. I don't really want to do anything, but go ahead.

Yeah. I've totally noticed the same thing. If I don't do some of these things towards the earlier parts of the day, It just gets away from me. And this is, it's much harder for me to do workouts or strength or mobility or any of that in the later stages of the day versus just get it done early in the morning or like in the morning hours. And you still rather energetic and your to-do list is not that long and you don't feel, yeah, so fatigued from the day.

So it's, yeah, it seems to energize me and makes me happy. And even like when I travel, I, um, I get my runs done in the morning, just easy run, and then I can have fun with my family and nobody's—

Yeah, no, exactly. And then you were gonna head over to Berlin first. Yes. So let's, let's talk through Berlin because I wanna hear what was your race strategy going into it? What were your plans? What was the time you were aiming for? How did race day execution go for you?

So I had a little bit of a hiccup before Berlin. I don't know if you're aware of that. So I remember I had to have a core needle breast biopsy. I remember when I was talking to the radiologist and I said, well, I don't have time for any like extra stuff, I have marathons to run. He looked at me, said, well, what's your time goal? And without blinking an eye, I said, 3:30.

I remember that. I do remember that.

So, um, but then I kind of got injured where my gait was off with that after having that. So I ended up running 3:33, which was very— I'm very happy with that. So that was like a 5-minute PR.

That was a strong PR at a world major too.

Yeah. So, and I was in the back of the— towards the back of her probably my pace would put me. So I had, I passed a lot of people, just kind of, I don't know, time-consuming and you don't have to pay attention, but yeah.

So what was your race-based strategy going into it? Like, what were you thinking? Were you running by intensity? Were you running by pace? Um, nutrition strategy?

Both. And then I do, I think a Morton every 30 minutes. So I kind of, kind of look forward to that. And I alternate, and I alternate between regular and caffeinated. And I eat a lot of carbs the day before.

What, what did you eat the day before? What works well for you?

I eat a lot of rice. And since I was in Germany, I eat a lot of pretzels. I love—

there you go.

Plain food, plain everything, plain nothing.

Wasn't that during the Oktoberfest in, in around that time as well? You probably want to stay away from the beer garden.

I was in Berlin and they have it in Munich. So I wasn't really affected by that, but yeah, there you go.

So you were saying your, your race day strategy was based on both heart rate and pace. Tell me a little bit more because I want to hear some of these details.

Actually, it was more, um, exertion. And pace. I don't wear my chest strap, so the data I get is not always that reliable. So it's more like the first half of the marathon I go by, this should feel easy. This should not, there should be no pushing or trying, none of that. And some of that's dictated by the weather.

And, and Berlin was relatively nice and cool from that perspective, right?

Yeah. So, Um, I don't even think I wore my, um, arm warmer, so it was just my regular race outfit. And I have my water bottles in the back and just everything kind of sort of like what I typically wear for like for Boston or for the Dallas Marathon. So not anything really different.

So you run with your own water bottle?

Uh-huh.

Yeah. Why, why do you prefer that over using the aid stations?

They have these big cups and I just, I get really clumsy and it slows me. See, I find it slows me down. My own water bottles, I have electrolytes and warm Morton in it, so that seems to work for me.

How many do you bring with you and how much do you consume?

Two, and they're not really big. They're, I think, 500 mLs, but they fit in the back of the belt so they don't flop around.

Not bouncing around. Do you feel them sloshing around at all or not?

That's good. I freeze them before.

Nice and cool. I've ran some marathons with a handheld bottle. And like, as far as for road marathons, I found it when the one bottle was full, it was, it was rather large. And it like, it kind of like, even when I tried it with two water bottles, it became a bit much. Then I tried it with one and eventually I've now found a way that the aid stations end up working all right for me. But yeah, I, I can see, I see some other people running with the water bottles as well.

Now, London, I could have easily just used there because they had water bottles with those sport tops. So that was like, oh my gosh, this is like, they had really good porta-potties and really good water bottles.

That's an important one. You need those. So, so there, so there you go. Um, so you were taking a gel every 30 minutes. You were taking electrolytes in your water, you were saying. Mm-hmm. And how did that go? Like, so the first half you were saying you were holding back effort-wise.

And then at that point I was about at the 3:30 pace and then I, I slowed down some. I was already, I think I was already getting sick, so my sleep wasn't that good. And, um, the minute I got to Berlin, the coffee did not taste good and I'm like, oops. That's not normal.

Something's— And it wasn't the German coffee. It was probably you feeling off, huh?

So by the time I got to London, I had like a really bad sore throat and my Oura Ring said, do not go anywhere. Stay home.

This is why I like things like— you and I use some of the same trackers because I got the Oura Ring as well. You are wearing the CGM too, like right now. So it is eye-opening sometimes to see the heart rate variability changing as you are going through peak training of a marathon. Then you go through a taper period where your body gets some more recovery, then the race nerves can start kicking in. And then, but once you're off, once a sickness or illness or something, a virus or whatever is coming up, yeah. Then it, then it's tricky when it starts to give you some of these signals and sometimes even just the resting heart rate being up by 3 beats or 2 beats, you can already tell something is off.

Yeah, yeah. So stress can do that. But yeah, it can be different things. And it's taken me a while to get back to my normal self after those 2 marathons and the illness that lingered for a while. And just recently I started to do sauna again, and that seems to have had a really good effect on my heart rate variability. Absolutely. And I feel like myself again.

So that is one big one that I've noticed as well. Heat exposure and cold exposure significantly increases heart rate variability. Um, like it, it really makes it go up quite a bit higher too. Um, so no, that's, that's good. There's definitely a healing factor there in many different ways. So, um, when you get to that mile 20 in a marathon, let's say mile 20 Berlin, you felt some of the, like some of the paces started feeling harder, but this was also you starting to feel off a little bit.

Is that correct? Um, probably a little bit of both, probably a little bit of both, but I mean, it was like, I think, you know, if I, in the big picture, I think it was a good race.

And then you had to go to London.

Yeah, I felt really good when the race was finished. No cramping. I walked myself back to my hotel. I could take my shoes off with no problem. I could walk up and down stairs. So I definitely did not overexert myself. So it was that— from that, it was a good race. Yeah. And then the next morning, I caught the public transportation to London and And by the time I got there, I felt really sick. So I'm like, okay, we cannot reschedule this. We're just gonna have to do the best.

That is rough going into a marathon feeling sick. So how do you go about it? Especially cuz you are not only looking at it from an athletic perspective, you're also a nurse, so you know a little bit more about the body. So how did you go in?

How did you go? It looked like my tonsils. I didn't see any white spots, but I had a swollen lymph node. I've been like, I had the flu vaccine. I've had like my fifth COVID shot like 2 weeks before. So whatever I got, who knows? It was either in the airport or I'm around sick people all day long, so who knows? Um, but I started the home remedies. So I did the salt water gargles. I put the Vicks on my lymph node. I think we ended up buying some Zyrtec, and that really helped with the drainage. And just lots of rest. And then they, I picked up some hydration tabs at the expo and I just like, there's only so much you can do.

And we notice this too sometimes athletes, when you push yourself in training and your training volume goes up, you have your peak training volume and then you go into the taper mode. The chances of you catching something are just higher. Like you're, you're, You have pushed your body rather hard. You're on that, on that edge of like, yeah, pushing hard and then recovering. And so being able to catch something at that point, especially when you have just ran a race of recovering and then have another race coming up within like, how much time was in between the two?

Yeah. So yeah, I had Boston to Big Sur. That was 6 days and then 1 week. And they were both, I mean, not that far, far off the times. So I seem to tolerate that well.

Yeah. So how did London unfold for you? You were trying to do whatever you could to recover and then race day came around.

Uh, well, I got myself organized. I met this other guy, so we, we went on the train together and I met this other lady that was also in the championship. So we were, we rode together and sat together in the waiting area. And actually one of the guys, I don't know where I know him from, but he's my friend in Strava. He came from behind and said, hey, Andrea, which, that was nice. And then come mile 11, I almost tripped over some, like a speed bump and they have like waves there. So that kind of like was uncomfortable. And I think I slowed down and from what I heard other people say, it got warmer. On that, on that race day. So I should have been perfectly happy with my time.

Well, what ended up being your finishing time? 3:40. 3:40. So there you go. That was, that was still a very respectable time.

Yeah. It's just in the big picture, as far as the age group thing, it was not a good time at all. So it was like, like my whole, my whole like initiative was just, I just wanna be part of it. I just wanna be, you know, incl— I just wanna be included. I'm not that fast yet. But that was like, okay, well, I did not do well, but you learned a lot of things along the way again. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm glad I got invited because that it's not easy to get into the London Marathon.

Absolutely. I got a decline email again this year. So, so tell me during a marathon or during a race, when things get tough, what do you do mentally? How do you go about tough training runs, tough marathons, especially those later stages?

Um, oftentimes I already think about the next race.

I did not expect that one.

Yeah, like, I'm still training for Dallas Marathon, but I'm already thinking about, like, I have— I'm gonna run Woodlands again in Boston in the spring. So I'm like, okay, this is hopefully— this is going to be a really good training cycle with no hiccups.

No. Okay. But let me, let me rephrase the question. You're at mile, mile 20 in Berlin. You're about to run a PB and things get tough that you might not feel 100%, but regardless, it's mile 20 of a marathon, 32K in.

It's gonna hurt. That is like, okay, you're not there to be feeling good. It's a race. It's gonna hurt. It should've hurt at the beginning. But then, and it's just kind of have it sort of somewhat even, like to be able to finish strong and not like crash.

What, what are some mistakes that you see runners make either in training or on race day?

For me, I cannot expect the race to give me something that wasn't present in training. Starting out too fast, I think, and I'm still working on that one, especially like with the shorter races. To hold back more.

I think we have had some conversations previously on this as well in the Facebook group, um, about calorie intake. Correct. That some athletes are not taking in enough calories, especially as they're increasing their training volume. Didn't something like this happen with you at some point as well, that you started increasing your calorie intake and that you started noticing certain things as far as from recovery and improved energy levels and such?

Yes. At the beginning, when I started the continuous glucose monitor, I got a lot of low readings.

With the continuous blood glucose meter, right? Because you were actually one of the first people who started talking about it, who mentioned it to me as well. And it was, it's incredibly eye-opening. What have been some of the takeaways from your end with CGMs? Have you made any changes what you're consuming, any habits, or have you, have you looked at how it's performing during some of your runs? Like, what are some of your takeaways with the CGM, like the continuous glucose meter?

Yeah, but this one is new now where I take my phone on the run and I can monitor more how it's, how, how the blood sugar is. My blood sugar will go up if I eat carbs and then just sit. So if That would be— exception would be in the morning because I like either I'm about to run or I just got done running. So those carbs, they get utilized. But come lunchtime or dinnertime, um, I will see spikes in my blood sugar going up to like whatever, 130s, maybe up to 150 if I don't move around, which I tend to not to do. And then they come back down. But if they spike too high then that is going to be more of a drop and the drop does not feel comfortable. Yeah. It feels like anxiety to me.

Totally, totally know what you mean. And the interesting thing though is, and I started experimenting with this more too on Thanksgiving, I like was eating different than I usually eat. And so I was like, all right, I'm kind of curious to see what the blood sugar levels are doing. So I just installed one of the— I had like a few laying around, so I actually ended up installing a new one. And sure enough, it already was going high and high.

How high did it go?

195. I mean, like, I ate everything and the kitchen sink, I will, as far as— it was just one of those that I was like, well, I already went that route, so I might as well go all out. And it was pie and ice cream and It was just one of those, right? But here's the one thing though, as much as we were done eating and we on purpose kind of ate early, so I had some time to digest before going to bed. But as soon as we were done eating, I just told the family that, all right, let's go outside, let's, let's go for a walk. And we ended up walking for 20 minutes. And sure enough, you see the blood sugar levels going up. And then as soon as you start walking, you start seeing it stabilize and start coming down rather quickly again. And it It doesn't even have to be long, just 10, 15, 20 minutes. So yeah, that's becoming more of a habit. It's not that I eat like that much, but just seeing some of the data and seeing directly what is happening there.

So yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that is in general recommended, eat like your salad, your vegetables before you eat your protein and then your carbs. And I pretty much do that already. So that's not really, I think the moving part is the piece that I can still tweak a little better.

Yeah. Well, and even for me though, like when you time your carbs is a bit different too. I prefer fats and proteins in the mornings and then the carbs a little bit later. Um, and that seems to be working well, but once again, I think everyone is different there too.

Yeah.

Uh, and the, the body just responds differently for everyone. So yeah, there's that. Does that, um, what are some recommendations that you have for people starting out with low heart rate training? Because there's quite a few people listening that are going through different stages of their training. And some people have trained previously differently than they are once they start experimenting with low heart rate training. So what are some high-level thoughts regarding that?

Be patient. Enjoy the running. And I think I've heard other people talk, look at some of the things, the non-running things. Are you sleeping well? Is your diet relatively, is it working for you? I don't drink any alcohol, but that would be something where somebody could have issues with. Stress in general. Try to minimize your stress. And just, I think I was listening to Walter and he said, yeah, just your run should be enjoyable. And that's something I had experienced too when I would do just no speed training, nothing. It was, it was enjoyable. It's, it's a long-term thing. It's not like a quick fix. You're going to like, oh, you're going to do this. And then a month from now, you're going to have a marathon PR. That is not going to happen.

How, how far out do you think? And like, are we talking 3 months, 6 months, 12 months? Really depends, right?

I would say maybe let's look at 6 months. Yeah. But everybody's different. That doesn't really— So I think you would have to look at your whole, you know, are you taking medications? Are you, doing other things that aren't really that healthful. Do you do any kind of strength or mobility things?

Are there any, any things that you're doing to help reduce stress? Are there any breathing techniques, meditation? Is there anything, journaling, what works well for you?

I've done meditation in the past and I don't really do it that much now. I really was meditating very heavily when I was about to enter nursing school and I was doing college algebra, I would meditate 3 times a day.

I mean, more and more research is coming out, scientific evidence about all of the different benefits from meditation. And yeah, even from concentration and focus and getting less distracted. Yeah, there's a lot to it.

One thing I do that is a little bit like meditation, but not meditation, like before I ran that Dallas marathon in 2018, I I would watch Eliud Kipchoge run there at Monza. I would just watch that and just absorb his running and his smile and everything. And I think it was very beneficial. Not that I will ever be like that, but to watch somebody that's the expert, the gold standard, the greatest, and just kind of absorb that. And it kind of incorporates that into how I run. That was really helpful.

The visualization is a big one for sure.

Sometimes, yeah, sometimes I like visualize Sarah Hall when she's running the, the end of Barefoot in the rain in London and like leaving nothing on the course. So like if it's raining, it gets hard, then I like visualize that.

The other day I was running and I believe I mentioned it on one of the recent, um, PB Zoom calls too. Like when we had a group session, we were talking about discomfort and making yourself go through discomfort from time to time. And so sometimes in the morning when it's rather cool, it's mid-40s. So whatever that is, it's like 8 degrees Celsius or 9 degrees Celsius. I go run without a shirt on and purely to kind of, at the beginning it's rather cold, but once you're warmed up, you're totally fine. But it was one of those days where It was a tremendous amount of wind out. And so running against the wind when there's like 20 to 30 miles an hour headwind, and it's a cold wind. And one of those that I feel at those points, I just got to smile. And as much as even once it starts raining or any of those kinds of things, like just, it makes you feel more present sometimes. And then once race day comes and some of these situations happen, You've not been afraid of it in training, but you've actually ran towards it. And I find that quite beneficial sometimes as well. Um, so yeah, kind of putting, putting yourself in, in some of those situations.

So yeah, I had a 22-mile run maybe 2 weekends ago, I think 2, or maybe it was last weekend. It was really cold. It was like around 0 degrees Celsius. And just to do that. And then it was the last 2 miles were fast. They were like a marathon goal pace and I was able to pull it off. So that's a confidence builder right there to have something like that.

What do you do recovering-wise? Is there anything that you do recovery-wise? Are you using massage guns or do you go to a physical therapist or all of the above?

I do have a bathtub that has little jets, and I have this like, uh, German bath salts, the Kneipp ones that I put in. They're like for muscle— with juniper— for muscle relaxation. So I do that sometimes. I have a massage gun. I have a chiropractor that comes when I need him for like an hour and does deep tissue massage, so to keep the injuries at bay. Um, I sometimes do cryo or red light. Um, I take naps.

That's a big one.

Um, hydrate, eat. When in the summertime, when it's here in Dallas really hot and humid, I use the You Can Hydrate, but you can use whatever. But I do replace my electrolytes and I do much, much better. Where if I don't use them, I am like the next— in the afternoon, I'm crashing in the afternoon and my blood pressure is in the 80s. So it's really bad.

It makes a big difference. And there's quite some people who are electrolyte deficient that just drinking water all day long versus sometimes adding in some electrolytes too. I've also noticed on hot days when all I do is drink water, I have to use the restroom very frequently. Whereas if I add in some electrolytes, it seems the body is holding it better. Yeah, that was one other part.

Yeah, so I use electrolytes, and I mean, I always try to eat healthy. I sometimes go to the Chinese foot massage, so I was able to keep any kind of plantar fasciitis away.

Those foot massages can be brutal. Like, we were, uh, so my wife is, my wife is Korean American. We went to, um, we went to Guam to visit some family over there, and We were taken by our family to get a foot massage, and these are like the small Asian ladies that look very innocent, and I almost cried, man. It was brutal. Yeah, my, my feet had bruises on it the next day. Oh my goodness. So yeah, definitely when they say, how hard do you want it? Next time I'm gonna say soft and gentle instead of go for for it. So yeah, that was definitely that. But I think it's a good way indeed, getting your foot massage. And there's a few different ways. One that I've found recently, they have these vibrating foam rollers you can use to foam roll whatever, like your legs, your calves, your back. Sometimes what I do is I just push it to the side of the bed against my mattress, and I actually put both of my feet on top of it. And so you're totally massaging the bottom of your feet and your feet start getting warm. And just 1 minute or a minute and a half already feels like I'm getting a foot massage without getting beat up by others.

Yeah, I tend— I actually, I elevate my feet when I sleep so that it helps with some of the swelling.

There you go.

And do different little— have little spiky balls and whatnot I use.

You got the whole toolbox over there. You've come a very long way. You've ran from a 3:52 to almost a 5-hour marathon. You've brought it down all the way to a, like, 3— what was it? 3:33. So what's, what's next? What are some of your big goals over here? Big scary goals?

Well, I mean, obviously I'd like to get it down to 3:29. Mm-hmm. Uh, probably maybe Chicago, I think if the weather is good.

You'll love that race.

Um, I do want to do some more trail running this summer, just kind of more unstructured. And then for 2024, there is a 50-miler that's called Antelope Canyon.

Yeah, that's a nice one.

Yeah, I want to do. And then the same year, I'm going to take off like a couple of months. I'll be like in Medicare age I'm like crazy. And I want to go to the Alps in Italy and just spend like a month or two there, just hiking and running.

Incredible. Sign up for UTMB while you're at it.

I would like to run a 100 miler. I don't know which one that's going to be, but I'm probably not, um, going to do UTMB or Western States.

The amount of climbing, I think it's about 30,000 feet or something on that race. Yeah. Well, even for hiking, that's an incredible place to hike and make a lot of adaptations. And if you can do some of that before going into like your 100 miler, that would be awesome.

I'm also thinking maybe even for this coming summer, I don't know, we don't have really any plans yet. Maybe do one of those stage races like here, like a 5 or 3 or 5-day, something like that. So, but that's not like a concrete goal that the other ones I'm like, okay, I really want to do this.

Ryan Hall and I had a conversation. At the end, he mentioned something along the line of, do a race that excites you, or sign up for some of the things that bring you excitement, right? That doesn't necessarily have to be the next world major marathon or a local marathon or whatever. And I've been kind of toying around with that idea for me as well. I still want to do the world majors. I've done 3 of them. I've done Chicago, New York, Boston. I still want to do the international ones whenever I get in, But one thing I truly enjoy is downhill running. And although it's completely different, I think it's just because I enjoy running low heart rate or like it just, I can run downhill with a relative controlled low heart rate, relatively fast. So now it's one of those things I've seen some of the guys running the Rebel races where you start at starting Big Bear at whatever, 6,000 foot and you run like the pancake at sea level and you just like like flying down this hill. Yeah, you got to put in the training or your quads are just gonna like get shot pretty quickly, but it would be really fun to do some of those races too.

So I've been kind of thinking the same thing.

Yeah, I've been toying around with that idea. Yeah, that would be a fun one.

Actually, I had some friends do Big Bear just like a couple of weeks ago, or maybe a month, and two of them did really well. They did like sub 3:20. And one of them I think had issues.

So yeah, there's definitely a higher injury risk on some of those races and you wanna train well for it. Um, and yeah, your quads, your knees, your Achilles, your calves, all of it. But it, it would be so fun, like leaning forward, running relaxed and kicking up the feet, high cadence. It's flying, flying down.

Yeah. I'm good at downhill running, so I'm definitely thinking that's something I would like to try either. That's, I think it's St. George. Yeah. Or there's others, but yeah, I haven't done any of them.

Yeah. I think that would be fun. I think it would also be fun to run it reverse and actually start at the finish and actually run it up to the start line. That would be, that would be a bit slower, but it would still be a fun way to race as well.

So yeah, I think that, uh, Japanese lady that has the, a, the world record in my age group, she runs up Mount Fuji.

I think every Respect. That will turn, that will turn you into a tank.

Yeah, she runs like really high mileage and her husband drives her there and then she runs up the mountain and then he picks her up and takes her back.

That's awesome. All right. Uh, I do wanna be respectful of your time here as well. I have one, one last question. So there's a lot of runners looking to improve, wanting to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete. Do you have any closing thoughts, any advice, high level here that you wanna share?

Increase your mileage, decide to be happy, like do calf raises for Achilles tendon issues and toe exercises and eat healthy.

Yeah. The, the eating part is a big component of that as well. As far as for earlier, you mentioned like the, the toe lifts or the calf lifts or calf raises. Uh, we, we've talked a few times about the Knees Over Toes guy, but I'm, I'm a big fan of his work. And I think what, what he's doing is quite incredible. And I see a lot of people having benefits from that. Also from an injury perspective or injury prevention perspective, just strengthening some of those parts, even when you're not injured, even when you're feeling fine, still to start, still to start doing some of that stuff and keep doing it even after injuries is a big one there too. So where, um, where can people find out more about you?

Um, well, I'm on Strava and I can, you know where that is. I am on Instagram and I don't really know what, what it is, but I can send that to you.

Are you on TikTok yet?

No, I'm thinking about it.

What I'll do is I'll make sure to link to, um, your Strava and your Instagram and then, uh, we'll, we'll go from there.

So. That's good.

Thank you very much for, uh, for sharing your journey. This was a lot of fun and, uh, yeah, well, exciting to see the rest of your running journey here in the coming months or years.

So same here.

All right. Thanks, Andrea.

Okay.

All right.

Bye.

Bye. Thanks so much for listening. What was your favorite lesson, quote, or takeaway from this episode? Please let me know in the comments on YouTube. To learn more about the Personal Best Program, my running coaching program that Andrea is one of the members of, check out pbprogram.com. And this is for runners of all levels looking to improve, all the way from 5K beginners to marathoners looking to qualify for Boston, run a sub-5, sub-4, sub-3, or those wanting to go after the ultra marathon distance. And it's been really incredible to see the transformations and the running improvements and results that many of the members in our programs are making. And there's a lot of example stories on our website at pbprogram.com. Thanks so much for listening and have fun out there on your runs.

Later.