#6: Meditation and Mindful Running with Susan Piver

The basic technique could not be more simple. It's you, Floris, sitting on this earth, breathing. The objective is to notice how and who you are right now, from moment to moment.

Hey, what's up guys? I'm excited to share a new episode of the Extra Mileage Show. My name is Floris Gierman, and today I'm talking with my friend Susan Pfeiffer. She is a meditation teacher and meditation expert, and also a New York Times bestselling author of 9 books. She's also the founder of the Open Heart Project, the world's largest virtual mindfulness community with classes, workshops, and support all online. They have more than 20,000 members in basically every country around the world. Susan has taught thousands of students in workshops, seminars, and classes around the world, and her work has been featured on The Oprah Show and The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and many other media outlets. And I'm very excited to have her on the show today. In this conversation, we talk about a variety of topics around meditation and mindfulness and how this can help improve your performance in training, racing, and the rest of your life. Every week I'm giving away different books, running items, and gear that I like on my website extramilest.com, and this week you can get a chance to to win two different books. The first book is Susan Piver's book, Start Here Now. It's an awesome basic meditation book. And the other book is Running with the Mind of Meditation, written by Sakyong Mipham. All you have to do is leave a comment on this blog post. The winners will be announced at extramilest.com/contest. Without further ado, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Susan Susan Pfeiffer. Hanging out in the mountains today.

Exactly.

Definitely. How about you? Where are you hanging out right now? This is at your home?

Yeah, this is my office. Ah, right on. It's like a studio apartment next door to our home.

Ah, right on. And you're located on the East Coast, correct?

Yeah, in Boston.

Ah, okay, okay, perfect. I love Boston. Boston is an amazing city. And there's a lot of runners in our running community that have a very special bond with Boston as well. Obviously because of the Boston Marathon, and it is one of the main goals for many of the runners to actually qualify for it because it really needs a fast qualifying time.

Yeah, it's a special— yeah, it is a runner's town.

Yeah, it really is.

And Adidas is here, and Converse, and Reebok. It's just a lot of running activity.

Yeah, right, definitely. I was out there 2 years ago for the Boston Marathon, and it was an amazing experience just to see all the people, I think there were like a million people on the side of the road just cheering on and everything.

It's so exciting, it's so touching. I've been one of those people on the side of the road just handing cups of water and cheering.

Yeah, exactly. And it really helps, it really gives you that energy when you see all the people so enthusiastic. I wanted to jump into two different topics in particular. Like for me personally, I take a very holistic approach to running. So it's not only focusing on let's train, train, train, like you train the body, but I think there's also a very important part of making sure that you train the mind as well. So I would love to talk more about that and how meditation can play a role into that. And then later on, I want to talk a bit more about mindfulness in general as well, and also some of the daily habits that you can get into. And through some of the projects that you have started, like the Open Heart Project. That is very exciting.

So that sounds perfect.

Well, so I first want to start off with thank you very much for coming on this podcast. I really respect all of the work that you have produced, and I'm very happy to have you here. So thank you.

Oh, thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you for inviting me. I, I'm really happy that we know each other.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and we got to know each other through Seth's old MBA program, Seth Godin. He put together a very intense 4-week altMBA program where we both learned a lot about creativity, about business, and how to ship projects. And I had the pleasure of being in some of the same workgroups, so that was very exciting.

It was great, wasn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. Can we maybe start off for a little bit more about some of your background and how you first started out with meditation? What got you into it?

Sure. Well, I've been a meditator for a long time, for over 20 years, and I sort of— I was reading a book, it's a very particular book called "The Heart of the Buddha," and I just read widely about various things, but at that time I didn't really know there was a difference between Buddhism and Hinduism, so I really didn't know what I was reading about, but I liked the title, The Heart of the Buddha. And as I was reading it, with every page I was thinking, this is the first thing I ever read that made sense. This makes sense. I must be a Buddhist. I didn't know that's what it was called. And page after page, the importance of a meditation practice was emphasized. So I thought, well, I better start meditating. And I did very shortly thereafter, and immediately realized it was important for me, and I've not changed my mind since that time.

That's good. So that was 20 years ago already.

Yeah, more than 20, actually 24.

I think it would be very helpful for some of the people listening to this is let's start at the beginning for a little bit, some of the basic fundamentals. So there's quite a bit of misconception about what meditation is and what it isn't. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What what really is meditation and how can people benefit from it?

Sure. Yeah, and you're right, there are a lot of misconceptions about it. And it's actually something very, very simple. All it is is substituting for your discursive mind another object of attention. And what I mean by that is your discursive mind, the part of you and me and everyone that is always commenting and judging and critiquing and wondering and thinking about the past or worrying about the future. It's incessant. It's an endless cascade of thought. And that's normally where our attention goes, which is very normal. I mean, what else are you going to think about but your thoughts? However, meditation asks you to take your primary attention off of your thoughts and place it on another object instead. And that's all it is. And in some practices that object is an image, something you look at or visualize in your mind's eye. And in some practices that something is a sound, like a mantra, or you chant Om or something like that. But in the most common practices, and the practice I teach, that object is your breath. It's very convenient. You're already doing it anyway.

It's automatic happening, yeah.

It's right where you are and you don't have to crank anything up. You don't have to introduce anything new to your ecosystem. It's there already. So you simply take your mind off, your attention off of your thoughts and place it on your breath. And then of course your attention will stray back into thought because A, you can't stop thinking. So that's the misconception about meditation practice is that in order to do it you have to stop thinking. That is Like saying, "Please look out through your eyeballs, but try not to see anything." Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very not useful, at best. So your attention strays to thoughts, blah, blah, blah, whatever's going on, and then you notice that. That's a wonderful moment. It's a moment of wakefulness. You let go gently and you bring your attention back to the breath. That's it. That's it. You know, you take a certain posture and you work with obstacles in particular ways, but basically the basic technique could not be more simple. It's you, Floris, sitting on this earth, breathing. That's it.

So basically it is slowing down whatever you're doing, right? Because we're so caught up in the day-to-day, especially now with being 24/7 connected. Disconnecting for a little bit and taking that time for yourself.

It seems to slow you down at some point, but it is not necessary to slow down to meditate, and it is not the objective of meditation to slow down. Rather, the objective is to notice how and who you are right now, from moment to moment. That is called relaxing. Normally we are pushing ourselves to accomplish more, speed up, and then sometimes we reverse that and start pushing ourselves to slow down and accomplish less. But we're still pushing. And the practice says stop pushing and just be with yourself as you are. And when beautiful, lovely, perky, happy thoughts arise, notice that and let them go. And when anxious, urgent, stressful thoughts arise, cool, notice that and let them go. Violent, angry thoughts, no problem. Boring, silly thoughts, it's all included.

Yes. And how long would a normal, like for someone starting out with meditation, like a practice even 5 or 10 minutes a day consistently for 5 days a week or something like that would already be a good start, is that correct?

It would be beyond a good start, it would be a fabulous start. 5 to 10 minutes a day, Monday through Friday, is great. It's better than like an hour every once in a while. I mean, people think, well, if I meditate for longer, I'm better at it. BS. No. The important thing with meditation, like with any habit— you're a runner, you know this— is consistency, not duration. So if you were to run a mile every day for 5 days, you would get somewhere. But if you were trying to run 5 miles in one day, you would just hurt yourself.

Yeah, and we see that quite often as well. And I think even with runners who are very busy during the week, they try to stack in all their miles in the weekends, and they basically do 10, 20, 25 miles in the weekends, whereas during the week not much. And yeah, the consistency is so much more important over there. And that's what I also say in running. If you have, let's say, 4 days a week to train. I think it's better to just spread it out more evenly, let's say a Tuesday, a Thursday, a Saturday, and a Sunday, and do it shorter instead of like all building it up for sure.

Same thing with meditation.

Yeah, absolutely. Like the one part that I've been so amazed by is some of the benefits of meditation. I started about 2 years ago, and for me, initially I read a book by Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now, And that really got me initially to start out with this, and I became more aware of what it was to be very present and to be more aware of some of the thoughts. And one of the key things that I've noticed is that in certain times of the day, I would have an intense moment of being present, and I don't recall that very often. But sometimes for just 5 seconds, I would be in the middle of a meeting and I would become very present. And initially that started a few times, and later it became more and more frequent as I started meditating more. And I did, I did notice that it helped with some of my stress relief. I felt that I calmed down a little bit more with certain situations. But there's a lot more benefits, correct? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Yeah, there are endless benefits. And it's very interesting that you started to notice moments of being present. I'm just curious, if you don't mind, what did you notice? And I'm happy to answer your question.

Yeah, so what I noticed is I would be in a conversation with someone, for example, or there would be a meeting with 10 or 15 people, and there would always be a lot of things going on, and my thoughts would be all over the place. Whereas now sometimes if I would be more, more aware of what was happening in the room, as if I was more actively present. And I even noticed that with my children sometimes. I would be playing with my kids and all of a sudden I could truly look my daughter in the eye and be really there instead of being half checked out or being half with your mind at work still. But truly being present. And I did start noticing that like a few weeks or months after I started meditating a bit more frequently.

So that is one of the primary benefits, and it's called mindfulness. You notice that your mind is on what your body is doing. Yeah, sitting and playing with the kids or running or riding a bike, suddenly you notice, oh, my mind and body are synchronized. That's what awareness— that's what mindfulness is, when mind and body are synchronized in the same place. And you're actually attending to what you were doing without being, like you say, half checked out.

But it is a very— it was an intense happiness feeling though. I know, like, it kind of rises almost as if you become very aware. And at the beginning it was only once or twice a day, and as I got more into it, it sometimes happened 10 or 15 times a day. And it was only 5 or 10 seconds, this short blip, but still.

It made you happy. Absolutely. You know, one could imagine that that is because meditation is a spiritual practice. It is not a self-help technique. Even though there are countless neuroscience studies that tell you how it will help you, and it will help you. It will lower the stress hormone cortisol. It will increase your immunity. It will lower your, you know, it will make you feel less stressed out. It will help you get a better night's sleep. It will help you to manage chronic pain. You know, it will help you recover from shocks to the nervous system. It has endless, endless application from a neurobiological perspective, and that is fantastic. However, that's been happening for over 2,500 years. It's not like, oh, we just discovered that these things are good, that meditation is good. So yeah, all those benefits, awesome, fantastic, but the real benefits, I would say, are what in Buddhist thought are called the three qualities of the awakened mind, which are the following: the awakened mind is compassionate, it is wise, and it is powerful. Powerful meaning present, because a surge of power comes with that, not aggression, but of like strength and endurance and resilience and curiosity and creativity and everything comes with that moment that you're describing, presence. Those are real benefits. They go way beyond— it is not a life hack. And interestingly, the benefits arise most quickly when you abandon your agenda entirely. We all come to the practice with an agenda. No one's like, oh, my life's perfect, I think I'll start meditating. We all are like, I want to be better at this or that. That's fine. That's great. But while you're practicing, it's very important to let go of those things and not to look only towards those things for the measure of your practice, but to look for these more inner experiences because they are bound to happen.

And I'm so guilty of that myself as well. The whole wanting to measure progress and like I run a lot with the heart rate monitor. You try to measure your monthly progress and any of these kind of things. This indeed, like, there's no— not one person is better at meditating than the other, right? It is purely the practice of sitting. You're not going to get an award for anything. It's purely you for yourself.

Exactly. I totally feel what you're saying. And yeah, sure, it's great that you measure it. It's great that you attend to your progress. That's awesome. That's beautiful. But everybody that I've ever spoken to wants to know that they're doing meditation right. That they're good at it. And just as you're suggesting, it does not matter if you're good at it. Like, if you were awarded the gold medal for following the breath, like you are number one on planet Earth, you're the world's best breath follower, that wouldn't be that awesome. But if you were the world's best florist, the kindest person to their children, the most creative at work, the most happy at being alive, those would be good things to accomplish, and that's what happens from your practice.

Yeah, absolutely.

Whether you're good at it or not. Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit about some of the obstacles that people run into initially starting out with meditation to get going, and what you can do to overcome some of these obstacles?

Yes. Actually, classical Buddhism defines certain obstacles. These obstacles were defined thousands of years ago, but they are surprisingly relevant. And I'll mention to them in a second, but the primary obstacle is mismanaged expectations for one's practice. Like, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to put on yoga pants and I'm going to sit down and I'm going to look really happy and all my problems are going to melt away and I'm going to become peaceful. And actually, you do become peaceful, but not by converting everything that happens in your world to an even tone. I mean, I think when most people say they want to be more peaceful, what they really mean is I don't want painful things to hurt. I want them not to hurt. But actually meditation widens, broadens your emotional spectrum. So you actually feel more. Which is very interesting. So one of the obstacles is becoming confused about what progress in meditation looks like. But the primary— and so the antidote is to Start your practice with right expectations. Do a little bit of preparation, a little bit of study, and talk to someone who knows what meditation is about, whether you talk to them in person or read their book. It's very important. The obstacle in classical Buddhism is called laziness, and there are three kinds of laziness. We can all relate to this. The first one is ordinary laziness. You just, you know, blah, no thanks, I'm just going to lie on the couch and watch TV. I'm not going to do it, I'm going to blow it off. The antidote is effort. No one is going to put on your running shoes for you and get you out and start moving your legs. And no one is going to put your butt down on a lip cushion or chair. You just actually have to do it. There's no special Buddhist trick. For overcoming that, that form of laziness. We all have to deal with it. The second form of laziness is called becoming disheartened, which means losing confidence in yourself, losing confidence in the practice, whether it's running or meditation, is considered a form of laziness, interestingly, because you actually know within yourself that this is important and this is powerful, and yet you are making progress even though on some days it really doesn't feel like it. Laziness is forgetting how far you've come. The third form of laziness and final form is very interesting for us Westerners, I think. It's called being too busy.

And we all know that.

We all know that. And it's considered a form of laziness, which is counterintuitive because you think, oh, busy people are busy because they're not lazy. They have a lot of responsibilities, they're important, they have a lot of things to do. But this view says if you're too busy to do the things that are really important, you have become lazy. And the important things are taking care of your body and your heart and the people you love and discovering who you are and expressing your creativity and exploring your inner world. These are the real priorities. And of course it's easy every day to just let those things slip to the bottom of the list. And that's called laziness.

That is very interesting you're saying that because even when I was listening to Tim Ferriss, he at some point said as well that busyness is a form of laziness and that goes right hand in hand with what you just explained. Like the importance of actually taking the time to prioritize and see where you want to put that time and effort into.

And do things carefully. That's really interesting that he said that. I concur.

Yeah, absolutely. I had an interesting conversation on one of the other Extra Mileless podcast shows, and that was with Mark Allen, and he's a 6-time world champion Ironman. So an Ironman is actually a double triathlon in distance, so a very long swim, like a 110-mile bike ride, and then like a full marathon as well after that. So it takes many hours, and it really is one of the hardest endurance one-day single events out there. And he actually wrote a very interesting book and it is called Fit Body Fit Soul. And that was all about the connection as well of you need to have your mind in the right place in order to be able to push your body. And we had some interesting conversations about that because even in a race, once you get to a tough spot, let's say a marathon is 26 miles, 42 kilometers. Once you get to that 20-mile point, that 32-kilometer point, that is where the race really starts. And that's where I feel it is more mind over matter, and it really is how you're able to talk to yourself, how you're able to push yourself through some of these harder moments. Can you talk a little bit more about your experiences between the connection of body and mind and how this could potentially benefit even in some of the endurance sports? Do you have any thoughts on that?

I have a few thoughts, but my main thoughts come from my own teacher. I'm a Buddhist in a very traditional way. I practice in a Tibetan lineage, and my teacher is named Sakya Mipham Rinpoche. And he's a marathoner.

Oh wow, I didn't know that.

Yes, he's a marathoner, and he started running— I think he's like 52 or 53 now— started running when he was about 40.

Oh wow.

And he competed in the Boston Marathon twice.

Oh nice.

Within a few years of beginning a running practice.

That is very good.

He's also accomplished at dressage, you know, horseback riding, and an excellent golfer. And he picked all of these things up in his 40s. Of course, by running, he did since a child. Anyway, he wrote a book that I would really like to recommend called Running with the Mind of Meditation.

Oh wow, yeah, absolutely.

That is the book that can answer this question. It's amazing, it's really good. And he— I talked to him after he completed his first marathon because I live in Boston, and he said at about the 20-mile mark, just as you say, he realized that he was sort of visualizing in his mind what was happening to his joints, and he was feeling the pain of various things, as anyone would feel. I've never run that long, but I'm sure there's pains. But he immediately began working with his mind and placed his mind on what to him were images that he used in meditation. And he completed his first marathon in a very good time, a very competitive time. So whether the pain is physical or emotional, the ability to remain with your experience seems to be of the greatest importance. When we start fighting with it, like, "Oh, I'm not in pain," or, "I'm in pain, but let me ignore that. Let me just think about something else." Well, it just comes back to hit you again. So there's some way of, you know, there's two ways to relax. With things that are uncomfortable. One is to get away from them. You know, that's not very practical, especially if you're at mile 20 of a 26-mile race.

You've still got 6 miles to go.

Exactly. So the other way to relax is to relax with. Not get away, but relax with what is happening. So you can relax with what you are feeling in your joints, you can relax with what you're feeling in your heart if the pain is emotional, and you can just allow it. Like, okay, you're in the party too. Okay, we're doing this together. Knee pain and lungs and all my muscles were— here we go, we're doing it. I'm a yoga practitioner. I have been for a couple decades at this point. And I know that, you know, for my whole life, there are poses that are easy for me and poses that are hard for me. But when I get into a pose that is difficult, the best thing for me to do is not to try to push further because that will hurt myself, but to relax with the pain, relax with the tension. And once I do that, it gives a little bit, and then I relax with that, and then it gives a little bit more on good days. So there's some quality of turning toward your experience head-on that you learn from a meditation practice that has like incalculable positive benefits in a physical sense.

It is so interesting you're saying that because I have experienced it myself, even running in some of these harder marathons where I was trying to go for a faster time, and towards the end I noticed my body started tensing up. My shoulders would get— like my fists would get clenched and I would really get to work, and at some point there's a point when you tell yourself, alright, it's all gonna be okay, just relax. And although you're still putting in hard work, you actually release, and it seems as if the effort becomes more comfortable again. And even, even funniest thing, in Boston I've experienced at some point, I was going for a personal record there, and I noticed expressions in my face became more like grumpy and everything. And once I told myself, like, alright, just relax, try to smile, slap a high five to a stranger, and all of a sudden you get this boost of energy again. And it is really that connection of being more aware of your body.

Exactly, exactly. And being able to work with your attention, because you described that so well. First you noticed this grumpy face or whatever it was. That's the key, is to notice it. Otherwise it just reads in your inner experience is some kind of discomfort. But when you can point out, "Oh, it's my face," or, "It's my shoulders," then you have a choice. You don't have any choice pre-awareness. No choice. This is riding you. You're not riding it. But once you take it in with your awareness, you have options. So, you know, it doesn't help to push it away first. First it helps to feel. What does it feel like to have tense shoulders? What does it feel like to have a grumpy face? And then let go. And then shift your attention around from your body to the people around you, to what's going on behind you. Well, don't do that, you might fall down. But you know what I mean, to be able to place your attention where you would like it to go, that is mindfulness.

Yes. What are some other ways to become more mindful while running? Like, I prefer not to really run with I don't like music that much, and that is one of the ways that I can focus on my breath, just like what you were talking about in meditation. You actually put your mind on your breath, and that is what you focus on. Is there any other ways, or are there any other ways to become more mindful while running?

And again, Running with the Mind of Meditation is like a 250-page answer to that question. Absolutely. It's a great book. I've read it several times, so I can tell you, and also from my own experience as a very slow, bad runner for many years, like 2 miles or something.

Oh, that's no good.

I just run around the reservoir and then go do some yoga. That's good for me. In meditation, as we discussed, your attention is on the breath. Strays, bring it back. In running, you make your body running the object of your meditation. So you place your attention on your body. What it feels like when your feet hit the ground. What it feels like when the air is on your skin. Just some aspect of what you're doing. I totally agree with you that listening to music, well, sometimes it's like, I gotta do it because I just want to get this done and it'll make it easier. But when you take the running itself as your meditation, it creates a more interesting, I would say, sustained connection to the practice of running. Whereas if you have to distract yourself from what you're doing while you're doing it, that's kind of stressful. But if you can make your experience running your meditation, then it becomes kind of joyful.

Yes.

And it has more than physical benefits. Spiritual benefits.

Yes, absolutely. Well, that's the, that's the most awesome part. Sometimes even a 20-minute or 30-minute run will already— like, you go out after a long day work and you end up going for a 20 or 30-minute run, and you notice your cortisol stress hormones are already lowering and your happiness levels just increase significantly. And that's that whole connection between body and mind once again.

Again.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. And as you said in the beginning of our conversation, we already have a lot of complexities in our life, a lot of busyness and a lot of speed, and we're always trying to push ourselves to do better or to do two things at once. Like, I'll listen to this audiobook about how to make more money while I'm running. You know, okay, that's cool. You know, everybody's got too much to do and you want to try to fit things in. But if every once in a while you could just do what you're doing You know, which the first actually produces anxiety. Yeah. It's like if you take this, you're like, let me put this down. And the first impulse is not, oh, what a relief. The first impulse is, uh-oh. So, but if you stay away from this for a little while, then you gradually start to relax, you know. So it's the same with anything, with meditation, with running. If you just keep it very, very simple. Yeah, just that thing. It starts to become a source of ease.

It is crazy how you just mentioned that part because I've started experimenting with it a little bit more here and there of taking, let's say, on a Saturday or Sunday, a block of 4 or 6 hours that I just turn off the phone, put it away, and don't even look at it and go grocery shopping without a phone, go and go play with the kids without a phone. And you're so— or like, I notice it, I'm so trained by default to to, okay, we go to the playground and something fun is happening. Oh, where's my phone to take a picture? Or there's this happening, like I'm standing in line for 5 minutes, like let's grab my phone. And instead of just being present and being there.

Yeah, it's— I know, it's funny, isn't it? Instead of being like, oh, what a relief, you feel anxious. And that's not a problem, that's natural because we're accustomed to it. Having constant entertainments, constant occupations. And so of course when you're used to something and then it stops, it's disconcerting. But then it gradually becomes like, "Oh yeah, I remember what it's like to not be attached to a machine." It's pretty great.

Absolutely. And especially with the amount of information doubling every year, I think we're only going to see more and more. But the good thing is I do feel mindfulness and meditation is getting more and more awareness. Even if I look in the last few years, more and more people have started meditating even around me, which is very good to see.

So it's a very hopeful thing.

Absolutely. And with that being said, you also have an online virtual community of mindfulness people all around the world called the Open Heart Project, correct?

I do, yeah.

And even that has grown a lot over time. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how how people can also benefit from this.

Yeah, sure, thank you for bringing it up. I started the Open Heart Project about 4 years ago, maybe 5 at this point, and it was because when I would go and teach retreats, at the end I would say, "If you want to keep meditating, it's good to find a meditation instructor." Because the practice is very— you know, it's like one eyeball trying to look at the other eyeball. It can just start to feel weird, or you're like, "I don't know, maybe it's not working." I don't know, it's good to have someone to talk to. Very simple. Not like a guru or anything like that. Just someone, a meditation instructor. I'm a meditation instructor in my lineage, the Shambhala Buddhist tradition. You can find one in various places. But most people would say, "You know, I live in Alaska. We don't have meditation teachers." Or, "I just moved to Bolivia. I don't have a meditation teacher." "I'm in the Ukraine." People could not find someone to talk to about their meditation practice. So I started sending out a video once a month a week with a free, it's still free, 10-minute guided practice preceded by a short, like 3 to 7 minute talk on something related to meditation and Buddhism. And to my surprise, it seemed to be filling a gap. Not just for people that didn't live near a meditation center, but for people that went to a meditation center and didn't like it, or live next door to a meditation center but have, you know, 7 children and can't get out of the house. It just seemed to be fitting this need. And so now there are close to 20,000 people all over the world who meditate with me, I guess you could say.

20,000 people! That is an amazing community that you've built up in 4 years there.

It's incredible! I just— it's an endless source of delight. And a couple years ago I'm like, okay, this is my full-time job now. I had to figure out a way to monetize it. So I offer online classes and there's various things that people do where I can interact with them more and help them go deeper in their practice.

Because I've seen many of the different videos that you have put out there on the newsletters. I'm one of your subscribers there. Oh, okay, thank you. It's always nice to see the the different videos coming through. And then on top of that, you also have several different retreats coming up, right? Like writing and meditation retreats. And I do think you also have a paid program for the meditation, for more of a daily meditation guided, correct?

Yep, that's $27 a month. And there's a daily guided meditation. And also we have this amazing thing in the Open Heart Project. I have to figure out a way to get people to be more aware of this. It's called the Daily Dharma Gathering. Every day at 8 PM East Coast time. But then it's recorded, you can watch the recording for 24 hours. It's a different teacher, not me, guiding a 30-minute practice, guiding a 10-minute talk, 10-minute practice, 10-minute conversation. And there are Tibetan teachers and Zen teachers and Vipassana teachers and old teachers and young teachers and black teachers and white teachers and skinny teachers and fat teachers. It's just a wonderful array of really, really, really good teachers.

Yeah, I was very impressed. Like incredible lineup of people from all around the world. Like it was very well put together.

I am so proud of it. I am so proud of it. And it's a great thing. So the Open Heart Project is really a meditation center that lives in the cloud. And it has what meditation centers would have. Introductory free things, it has ways to go deeper, it has guest teachers, it has retreats, we do retreats online, it has classes, it has what a meditation center would have, only it's virtual.

And people can find this at openheartproject.com?

Yes, or just my name, SusanPiper.com.

Absolutely, and I will put that in the show notes as well. So that's good, and then I wanted to take a look at this book as well, because this is one of your latest books that you have written, right? Start Here Now. And it basically goes through the basic, basic fundamentals of meditation and also how to get people started. And it is a very easy read. I went through it in like probably like an end of an afternoon, and like it has a lot of good information information in there, so I can highly recommend this. And what I will do as well, I'll give away a copy of this book and a copy of the other book that you had just mentioned about the running and meditation as well.

Please do.

So I'll pick one of the people who leave a comment on the website, and then from there on they can win a copy of both books.

That's awesome. That's great. Thank you.

So one or two close things up over here, if people really are excited and want to get started, just kind of putting their toe in the water, like, what would be the, like, top 2 or 3 advices that you can give right now just to get people started today?

The first thing is to learn meditation from someone that has been trained to teach it. It's a sacred trust to teach someone meditation because you're saying 'Please invite me into your mind and let me tell you how, let me give you some tips for what happens in there.' So it's very personal. And it can be very weird. So you want someone who really knows how to teach it. And I also feel very strongly that you should learn meditation that is connected to a lineage that is more than 2,500 years old. That's my line in the sand. And again, it's because it's a very profound practice, extremely simple as you know, but incredibly profound. Those moments of presence that you described, those are profound moments.

Absolutely.

So you want to learn a technique that has been tested over millennia. So it has been honed and perfected and you can trust it because whenever you're doing anything spiritual or anything related to your mind or your heart, you must know that you can trust it. So lineage is the key to finding something trustworthy. And then I would say, you know, you can read a book, you can watch a video. The best thing is to go hear someone teach it in person, but not everyone can do that, I understand. So find a video, find a book from someone who you like. The important thing with meditation instruction is that to find a person or a tradition where you feel a heart connection. This is what we're looking for. So I may like this person, you may not like that person. That's fine, it doesn't matter. You want to find someone that when they teach, when you hear them, you think, "Oh, that makes sense. That makes sense. I like that. I like them. I would like more of that." then that's, that's a good place to start.

Yeah, because there are a lot of different types of meditation, right? So it really is about finding what works best for you, and part of that is also doing some of your research or testing and trying out a few different options. But until you eventually find what works best.

We want to avoid New Age nonsense. It's very important.

What do you mean with New Age nonsense?

Something that someone made up in their house 6 months ago or 6 years ago that comes with the promise of perfecting your life so that you can get everything you want.

Good. This is very, very eye-opening once again. Absolutely. I appreciate your time and your thoughts. I know you have a lot going on and there's a lot of exciting projects in your world. What is the best place for people to find out more about you, Susan?

My website, SusanPiper.com. That is the best. And thank you for your time. I know you— I know because we did Alt MBA together that you have a lot of projects going on too.

Yeah, that's good though. This is where meditation comes into play. Place as well. Thank you very much, Susan.

Thank you.

All right, bye-bye now. Hey, what's up guys? I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Susan Pfeiffer. Meditation has made a huge difference in my life over the last few years, and I truly hope that you were able to learn a few things from this conversation. Please let me know in the comments because I'm curious to hear what was your favorite lesson from this conversation. I'm going to be giving away 2 copies of the books that I mentioned earlier. So one, Start Here Now by Susan Pfeiffer, and the other one, Running with the Mind of Meditation by Sakyong Mipham. And all you have to do is leave a comment on my website on this blog post, and we'll be picking 2 winners and announcing them next week. You can find the winners over at extramilest.com/blog. Www.florisgierman.com/contest with weekly contests on that page, giving away different books, running gear, and other gadgets. Make sure to subscribe for more episodes, videos, and podcasts, and I hope to talk to you again very soon. All right, have a good one. Later, guys.