#61: Trail Running Wisdom, With Trail Runner Nation Scott & Don

I was running behind Dana and I thought, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. I mean, I know he's accomplished a lot and he has all these awards, but he's lost because downhill we're bombing and through the flats we're just kind of shuffling along and through the ups we're kind of hard hiking. I'm thinking, this guy doesn't know anything about running. What am I going to learn from this guy? And then I learned as the day went on, wait a minute, he knows exactly what he's doing. Our pace changes, but our workload is even. And that's when it really dawned on me, that's the art of trail running. It's keeping your workload even no matter what trail you're on, up, down, flat, your workload's even. And so he taught me a great lesson.

Welcome to the Extra Mileage Show. My name is Floris Gierman, and on this podcast I interview different guests such as Eliud Kipchoge, Kilian Jornet, Sally McRae, and the Iceman Wim Hof. And a common theme is that we talk about ways to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. I also enjoy having conversations with different health experts, running coaches, and non-elite recreational runners to talk about their running journey and the different things that they've learned along the way. Today I'm excited to share a conversation with two of my friends, Scott Warrer and Don Freeman from the Trail Runner Nation podcast. And this is one of trail trail running's oldest and most downloaded podcast. These guys have recorded more than 600 episodes sharing knowledge and advice with the trail running community. When I first got into running, I was only running on road. Initially, I never thought of running on a trail, and I was somewhat intimidated and scared of trail running. Once I discovered the joy of trail running, it made me feel so alive, happy, and connected to nature. There's so much beauty around us on the trails, and many runners never get to experience this. In today's episode, I wanted to bring on Scott and Dawn to help break down some of those barriers to get into trail running and for you to improve as a trail runner. I wanted to find out more about their learnings from their running journey as a non-elite trail runner and also from their journey as a podcast host for more than 12 years. Scott and Dawn really have stories for days from their trail running and ultra running adventures, and I had a blast recording this conversation. Just so you know, every podcast episode that I record is also available as a YouTube video. So if you want to see what Scott and Don actually look like, because I think quite a few people have listened to their podcast, but they might have never seen them. So you can also find this episode on YouTube, or if you're viewing this on YouTube, you can also find it as a podcast episode. This episode is brought to you by Element. This is a tasty, sugar-free electrolyte drink mix that I drink daily. Many listeners are endurance athletes and symptoms of electrolyte deficiencies are quite common. LMNT can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and other common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency. I come across many athletes also in our Personal Best Running coaching programs who don't take in enough electrolytes in training and racing. Right now, LMNT is offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order. That is 8 single-serving packets free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try 8 flavors. Orange is my favorite flavor. Get yours now at drinklmnt.com/flow. This deal is only available through my link. You must go to drinklmnt.com/flow. F-L-O. See also the link in my description. Hope you enjoy my conversation with Scott Warr and Don Freeman. Scott and Don, welcome to the Extra Mileage Show. How is it like to be on the other side of the microphone for you guys?

I don't know. I mean, we'll find out. I may be asking Floris more questions than answering questions.

You know, we're very, very happy to be here and to get to experience the other side of the microphone.

So I will say the audio is better than I've experienced with any other guest. So that has been a good beginning right here.

So it's just our voice tone, Floris. It's not anything with the microphone. It's just our voice tone.

Smooth, smooth. I want to start out by saying in, in 2013, I was training with Coach Jimmy Dean, who you guys have had on the, on the podcast as well. And he said, right when I was starting to get into trail running and ultra running, he was like, you should check out the Trail Runner Nation podcast because these guys know what they're talking about. And sure enough, the very first episode was with Dr. Phil Maffetone. And so that opened a whole can of worms for me. So that played a huge role in my running and actually in this Extra Mileless Podcast channel too. So just want to say thanks for all the nice work you guys have done there.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a small correction in your statement there, Floris. You said that we, that Trail Runner Nation knows what they're talking about. Don and I have no clue. It's all the guests. That's what makes our podcast our podcast. It's not because Don and I really know anything. It's, you know, we're asking questions of some, some pretty great guests.

Well, we think we know more now. Than we did when we started, only because these guests come on, we get to ask questions that we're hoping everybody else is thinking at the same time. So, we're all going for the ride at the same time. When we first started, we described the podcast as, it's like being on a trail run, except we're in chairs. And so, we're just having a good conversation, asking questions that you would ask some elite athlete or just some expert. In the conversation to just get to learn some things. So I think that's been the fun.

It's the only way we can keep up with some of our guests in a chair, because if we went on a trail run, we'd get maybe half a question and then we'd be yelling at the top of our lungs trying to get to hear them.

Yeah, there really is a lot to learn throughout the whole process of having these conversations. When did you guys first start the podcast? How many, how many of these episodes have you guys done by now?

We are coming up on our 12th year and we just published our 611th episode. So we've been doing— I don't think we've— if I can remember right, Don, maybe you can correct me— I don't think we've missed a week. We publish weekly on Friday and I don't think we've missed a week in the, in the 13 years.

Yeah, that was our commitment. We wanted to do one a week and Friday for Saturdays or Sundays long run. That was kind of our, our thought. We wanted to be dependable. We wanted to be good running partners to people that were out there that either, um, you know, needed someone that week to help push them along, or, or just conversation to have between people. We wanted to be their, their weekly companion.

And, and with, with that many episodes, Floris, you can imagine, just like the, the dozens or hundreds of, of runs that you've taken with some of your friends, sometimes that conversation on Saturday really ain't that good. So most, most of ours, we have really good guests, you know, but, but there's some stinkers out there. Oh, yeah.

Not guests.

Not guests by any means.

Oh, no, no, no.

I had a stinker guest. Well, I can think of one stinker guest. I'm not going to say which one that was.

I can't, Scott, for the record, I can't think of that podcast.

So we'll have a discussion tomorrow on our run. But you know who it is. And I invited him and it was We actually, it was the only episode we thought, should we not publish this? And we thought, well, we have to because we don't have anything else in the can. So we published it. It was not a good episode.

It happens. Consistency does win over the long term though. And I'm sure you learned a bit from that one again too.

It's like running.

It's like running. You know, sometimes you have a good run, sometimes you don't. But what really matters is that you're out there every day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what were those early days of running like? Have you guys always been into running? Have there been other sports early on? And what was that first transition to trail running like for you guys?

Oh, you know, it started for me with a mutual friend with Scott and I. He said, yeah, I'm going to run a marathon. And just to make conversation, I said, yeah, I've always wanted to do that, which was not true. And I just wanted to, you know, make conversation. He says, great, Saturday, show up here. That's how it started, all from that. And I'll continue, Scott, since you give me the space. It's the exact same friend that we did run a marathon together, and I promised never to run another step in my life unless something was, you know, as they say, chasing you. But he said, "And you can get a jacket if you do this 50-mile." And we all know the end of the story. I had plenty of jackets, but I had to have this winter's jacket or this runner's jacket. To show I completed it. So that's how I started.

My story is very similar. So Don and I knew each other. We— Don and myself and this other gentleman, we all went to church together. And Don and Jeff Abel, we're going to say his name because he is responsible for what we do on Saturday, what we're going to do tomorrow morning and go out and run. He was a runner and he and he and Don hooked up and they started running. I was not a runner, and they did the, you know, kind of went their way and la la la la. And, and Jeff unfortunately had cancer and had gone through some, some surgeries, and he was coming back from one of those surgeries, and he was a friend of mine. And I thought, you know what, one of the ways that I can help him is maybe get him back out on the trails is to have him take me out on the trails. And so I did the same thing. I said, hey Jeff, let's I want to run a marathon. Can you help train me to run a marathon? And that's how I got started. But I hated running. I played football in high school and I hated running, hated it. The coaches would say, hey, we do these serpentine things on the football field and I hated it. Every step of the way I hated running.

It is one of those things too though. I feel like when you look at that type of running, it has often been like hammering out high intensity. It was almost like torturous putting yourself through the wringer that way. When I first signed up with Jimmy Dean's coaching program in 2013, like, I was a roadrunner. I want to improve my road running. And he was like, all right, let's go to the trails. And I was like, but I want to become a better roadrunner. I want to run a sub-3. He's like, we go to the trails. And it was purely that part of like being forced to slow down and taking walk breaks. It kind of brought a new enjoyable part to, uh, to running again.

So did those trails help you become a faster roadrunner?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Because once again, it was like you're almost forced to slow down. Like the very first run, I remember going out there and trying to run at a road pace going uphill. Well, that lasted 5 minutes, and I think we've all been there, that you just get your ass handed to you and you realize you have to take walk breaks, you have to slow it down.

So Yeah, I know when you talk to a road runner and you say, yeah, we're going to run a 10-minute pace today, and they'll kind of scoff and laugh like, that's so slow. I'm not even interested. But then they come out and realize that 10 minutes is a bit different on the trail.

Yeah, absolutely. What were those first trail runs like for you guys when you first started out and you started transitioning into trail running? What was that?

Oh, I got a story here. So when Jeff Abel finally—

agreed.

He, he didn't go out and start running with me at the very beginning. He told me I had to build my base, and all that was done on my own on the roads. And finally, one day, um, I was, I was up to the point where he, uh, prescribed before he would officially take me under his wing. And we went on a, on a, on a short trail run, um, up in the mountains. And we— he drives up there, and we, we get out, and he starts lathering this green gel all over his legs. And of course, he has these duck shorts that are embarrassing, right? And so he's showing lots of leg and he's putting this— and I'm going, what, what are you doing? He goes, well, there's poison oak out here, we got to put on some IVX. And I go, wait a minute, I didn't— you didn't say we're going to run through poison oak. And so anyway, and then he has these handheld water bottles. I have like a store-bought water bottle, you know, with, you know, the dollars that you buy at the convenience store. And so we get out there and we do a short warm-up that was probably a quarter of a mile just on a single track. And then we came to a hill that drops down, actually drops down to the Western States Trail. And he was a famous downhill runner. I mean, he could run down, just bound downhills. And as we get there, he said, see you at the bottom. And he took off like a bullet and he left me at the top of this hill. By myself with a— not a handheld. I was holding the water bottle in my hand and I'm going, okay, I'm going to get lost out here. I'm going to get poison oak. I'm going to get eaten by a bear. And luckily he waited for me at the bottom of the hill.

That's a beautiful trail to run at, though. It almost reminds me of the last run that we all went on together. It was with the two of you and with Scott Bailey from Path Projects. We were going out there running the Western States Trail, and I was shooting a few photos along the way. And at one point I remember you, Scott, yes, trying to run uphill, and you were trying to like kind of book it pretty fast. I was shooting photos and wham, your right calf or your Achilles full on shot in. I have this photo of Don laughing his ass off while you're holding your calf over there dying. Yeah, that was a beautiful trail.

That was a real memorable photo shoot. Thanks, Floris. I really appreciate that, bringing that up with all of your audience. Thank you.

And like a true friend, you know, I had to give it a good laugh. I mean, it was comical. I remember when I first started out on the trail, as all of us do, usually comes from someone inviting you or them saying, hey, come on out. It's really great. You know, we're going to have a good time. And so, so I go out there with them and I was just full of questions, which really was part of what TRN was about is, wow, there's, there's so many things to learn out here. And who do you ask and who do you know? And if you aren't invited with this group that already had experience, where do you go? And that's really what the podcast was about is let's bring some of these people that know and bring them into the ears that people don't know. And so they can learn as well. What if, you know, we're in Auburn, which is great. A lot of trail runners here. But what if you're in the middle of Kansas and there aren't a lot of people there to ask? You know, who do you run with? Who do you ask these questions? And I remember my original questions. Do you run this thing? Do you, in a race, do you run this hill? You know, how much? And I started to learn. I was running with this guy, Dana Gard. I've mentioned him on our podcast because he really is one of my mentors. And I had road experience like you. I mean, I don't have any ribbons or medals, but being on the road, I'm trying to hold a steady pace. That's what I need to be at whatever minute mile, stay right in there. And I noticed that I was running behind Dana, and I thought, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. I mean, I know he's accomplished a lot and he has all these awards, but he's lost because downhill, we're bombing in. And through the flats, we're just kind of shuffling along. And through the ups, we're kind of hard hiking. I'm thinking, this guy doesn't know anything about running. What am I going to learn from this guy? And then I learned as, as, as the day went on, wait a minute, he knows exactly what he's doing. Our pace changes, but our workload is even. And that's when it really dawned on me. That's the art of trail running. It's keeping your workload even, no matter what trail you're on, up, down, flat. Your workload's even. And so he taught me a great lesson by— and I was a poor judge at the onset. I thought he was misleading me, but he really paved the way for the future.

And that takes practice. Like you say, in road running, walk breaks are almost looked at like you don't do that in road running.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What happened to them?

Yeah.

But then all of a sudden you go on the trail and it's the norm. You get a lot of benefits out of all of these kind of things. And just that mind shift alone, that walking is also training and like just spending time on feet in the right heart rate zones over there.

Yeah, I remember, uh, it was, it was, uh, the AR50 run, and there's a few hills on that. And, and this, uh, runner that I knew, um, yelled at me. It's my, you know, my first one said, hey Freeman, we walk this stuff, you know, because I was just trying to grind it out. So I gotta be a runner, right? So it was, you learn sometimes the hard way with the slap in the face or or, you know, a good, a good call out like that lets you learn the proper way to do the sport.

What were some of those, those early lessons, some of those things that stood out to you outside of just like running intensity and running pace? Was there anything that stands out?

Well, you know, there's a lesson to, to all the rules that we know, whether it comes from hydration, electrolytes, fueling, pace, you, you can name a rule that's in the ultra runner handbook and you can attach a lesson to it. You know, we've all bonked from nutrition. We've all bonked from, from pace. And you go down the list. So I imagine there's a good school of hard knocks all the way through, but it's so important to learn from your mistake and then recognize it early when it's happening to you so that you don't reproduce it. And it's— that's what I think makes the successful veteran runner?

Scott, I, I'll tell you, um, you know, a specific thing that I learned is when you're running trails, you're gonna fall. It's inevitable. You're gonna fall, right? And to learn how to fall properly— oh, are you showing us a little more?

I'm literally like, it's been one of these 3 weeks in a row, and it doesn't often happen like that. The hand is healing. Yep.

So, so that's something that I learned early on is, is how to fall properly. Don't try to resist the fall and try not to brace yourself with your hands as you go down, but kind of roll with it. Um, back when, when, when we started, um, people didn't use hydration packs. They used the handheld water bottles, which I still prefer. And those were like little airbags that you could use, um, in your fall. So if you came— went down you held those out and they kind of cushioned the fall. But learning how to fall, what I think was— well, first of all, knowing that you're going to fall and anticipate the fall and then roll with the fall. I think that was one of the early lessons I learned.

Yeah, that's a big one. And I think this morning I actually had a conversation about the difference in cadence sometimes when you're road running or trail running, that sometimes with trail running, you run pretty light with a high cadence that You step on something, and even if that step goes unexpected, your weight is already halfway on your other foot again. You're never like taking these massive, ginormous steps when you're trail running because it seems like, yeah, you just want to be able to adapt rather quickly. Like if you go through a boulder garden or something in particular, you run rather light on the trail sometimes.

Yeah, there is a, there is a lot of mental energy that we use as trail runners to pick our course. To watch each and every footstep, where it needs to go, where there's a root, where there's a rock that you think that is going to take you down. You need to be engaged every step out on the road. So, we've all run long and been on trail that transitions to a road. And it's almost like a mental, "Ah, I don't have to think about my step. One foot lands right where I anticipate. I could close my eyes." for the, for the next few steps, and, and it'd be very predictable. You know, I'm going to be in good shape. But don't close your eyes on the trail because that's very predictable. You're going to be on the ground. So, you know, trail running is, is it takes a lot of mental energy as well as physical to run up and down trails.

And you have to pick up your feet too, right? You can't— there's a couple reasons why you don't shuffle on a trail. One, you don't want to cause the, the cloud dust for the guy behind you or gal behind you. But secondly, if you're shuffling, that little pebble is going to take you out.

For sure. For sure. No, that's a, that's a big one. And I think sometimes when I try to step back a little bit, when you look at the running community, there's like from the 100% of runners out there, probably 98 or 99% of them are road runners. And there's only a very small— I don't know what exactly the numbers are here. I know the running, trail running community has grown significantly, but there's still a lot more road runners out there. But I'm also trying to ask myself, like, why, why is it that some of these people are not going out there for trail running? And what I've noticed with some friends, when I take them out on the trail run for the very first time, that it never even crossed their mind to go running on the trails. They're so used to running on the regular bike path, or they're so used to running in the local park, but to go out there on an actual trail and take that, and then once they discover it, It's like an entire beauty again.

Floris, have you ever had someone that's a roadrunner that you've taken out on the trails and they said, eh, this isn't for me, I want to stay on the road?

I have never experienced it.

Neither have I. It's kind of fun that way where— and I don't know anybody— well, I guess there are some people, you know, back in the day when Born to Run came out, there were people that ventured out on the trails by themselves, But usually it's a friend that takes you out there, and, and that's, that's a very unique thing with trail running over road running. Road running, you can go down to the sports store, get some shoes, and go out and start running, uh, on the roads. But trail running, typically the typical evolution of, of becoming a trail runner is someone invited you, and that brings up that whole community atmosphere that we all I just love trail running for. It's someone inviting you to try something, and then you end up being part of the group.

I have a thought on that community piece. As you brought that up, it kind of made me think, you know, when there's risk in the world, people join together. You know, they get strength in numbers, they have security with it. And I think there's some inherent risk with trail, like getting lost, maybe like falling and hitting your head, like twisting an ankle and being stranded out there, like any number of things. And I think that's why our community gets strong is because there is that risk that's out there. I think of like surfing. There's great community with surfing because there's risk in that. And so, you're out there in the water. There could be a jellyfish or a shark or something. I imagine those are out there. I'm not going to find out. But there are people that become cohesive as a unit just because of risk. And I think that there is that with the trail and not as much with the road. Just a thought.

I love how supportive the trail running community is. Like, you will come across another runner and people often say hi to each other, whereas on the regular road run, depending on the area you're at, if you're suburban or if you're somewhere else out there, it's kind of hit or miss when people greet each other. But on the trails, generally, people are very nice and supportive, and not just on your regular runs, but also during the actual races. I see so much camaraderie of people are not often racing against each other. Everyone wants to get to the finish line on their own terms, but there's a lot of support towards each other there too.

We've brought up Jimmy Dean. I want to tell my Jimmy Dean on that, and that he set the— one of the best examples I've seen of selfless behavior, of looking after others that are out there on the trail. Somebody having an issue, and Jimmy was in the middle of a race, and I was running with him that particular time. And he just stopped and said, "Hey, how can I help you? What do you need?" And I'm thinking, "Jimmy, we're in a race here." And he really taught me a lesson of this is how you conduct yourself. And it's community first, safety first, race results later.

Good point.

So well said. What are some of these steps to make it smaller? If there's anyone listening over here and like you say, they might be in the middle of nowhere where they might not have access to a friend who can introduce them to the trails. What are some small steps to make it a little bit easier just to get out there and enjoy or experience the trails for the first time?

Your podcast, Floris, you're doing it right now. You're bringing the running community to everyone. Hats off to you.

Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, there's so many apps out there now that you can find a trail regardless of where you are. I travel a little bit less now, but I used to travel quite a bit, and depending on the city I went to, I could pull up a trail that was, you know, a half a mile from my hotel, or even if it was just an urban trail. I was down in Phoenix, Scottsdale this week, and there's a little canal trail, and, you know, I was able to find the, the, the GPX, um, track that went up to, uh, the Cholla Trail up the Camelback Mountain. I, I think that those are, are really nice. I think that having the wearables and the GPS, um, watches that we have now, I think that brings safety, um, into it. So you don't need to worry as much if you, if you do fall and you you, you sprain your ankle or if you crack your head, um, typically there's, there's cell phone coverage in most areas, not all, um, but you can, you can get help. So I think now there's, there's a little bit more safety, um, out there for us. And, you know, just going out, I think, you know, we've— I've had many, many friends over the years say, you know, I live in Kansas and I, I have no idea who anyone that runs trails. I said, go to your local running store.

Yeah.

And just ask them. I mean, they know where the clubs are. They knew that there may be a Tuesday running evening club that goes out to the trails. And I think that's a really good way to start. And knowing, because of our community, that if you show up to that store or you show up to the trailhead for one of those trail runs, they're going to put their arms around you and make you feel welcome.

Yeah, drop the ego at the door. There's no pace. It's purely about being out there and having fun together. And this is how I, in 2013, I joined the Coyotes running group on a Thursday morning with Jimmy Dean. I showed up with my waistband from the marathon running with the little bottles on the side. And I remember everyone had the handhelds and everyone was looking so cool. And here I was with my waistband and I felt, all right, I'm learning a lot of things here today, but open arm welcome. And that was just enjoying the trails.

How many of us had those little stupid little waist belts with 15 bottles that held an ounce of water? Looked like Batman out on the trail. Good gravy.

I'm guilty. I had a set of those and showed up to an aid station and held, you know, 6 bottles in my hand with— and they were trying to put ice in it and they were trying to put water in it. And they looked at me like, Go get a bottle, would you? Here's, here's some— here's one on the ground somebody left. You might as well use that because these are useless.

Yeah, yeah, totally. One way that I'm actually introducing even my kids— I have like a 6-year-old and a 9-year-old, and with my 9-year-old, every Tuesday morning, 6 AM, we go for a run. The way that I'm introducing them, it's purely, let's go for a hike, let's go for a little walk, we bring some trail snacks, and all we do is play on the trails. And on the downhill, we'll jog a little bit and on the uphill, we'll hike a little bit. Before you know it, you're spending an hour on your feet. And like that, gradually over time will turn into more consistent running again.

So that's a great example.

Yeah, it's got to be fun. And so we talk about that about your 6- and 9-year-old, but maybe even a 69-year-old needs the same kind of introduction. Just get out there and just start doing it and you'll run when you're ready. And if you're not ready, your body will let you know and you won't. And just get out there and go. To Scott's point, one is greater than none. That's one of his— he's trying to coin the phrase. He's trademarked it. He's done everything he can. And he reminds me that it's something he came up with.

I still need to make hats. One is greater than none.

We'll make it work with PATH Projects. We'll get a hat collab going over here. Yeah. Let's talk briefly about actual running gear as far as for any safety gear, any footwear, any apparel, Is there anything in particular, high level, that you just wish you would have known at the beginning? Or for anyone listening who is less experienced in this area, would be great to hear some thoughts. Like, obviously there's separate shoes. There are trail running shoes with a bit more traction.

I'll start, Scott, and just say you might be surprised that it's not shoes, shorts, shirts, hats, any gear like that. It was the Glide or the Two Toms or the Squirrel's Nut Butter. It's solving the problem of chafing, of being out on the trail. That will shoot down a race. You can almost get away with any gear as long as you have something to try to limit the chafing that's there. So I think that's probably one of the great finds and discoveries and an essential piece of gear if you're out on a long run.

You know, just like I said, inevitably you're going to fall. Inevitably as a new trail runner, and, and I'm sure this hope happens in road running too, so, you know, we can include that big group with us, but had the— you've had to have had the red racing stripes down the front of your shirt, right, where you finally realize that, boy, you know, those nipples chafe a lot easier than the rest of my body. I think that's a good one, Don. I, I was gonna say I probably ran trails for 2 or 3 years in a pair of Mizuno— I wish I— Wave?

Waves, yeah.

Wave street shoes, road running shoes. And they were really, really nice. Now, I was running some pretty groomed trails here in Northern California, but I think you don't need a pair of trail shoes. And I wouldn't even put that on the top of my list. Starting out, I would say just a handheld water bottle, a nice way to carry a bottle. I guess now you go out there— Don and I talk about this a lot and we kind of feel we're old fogies now. We show up at the trailhead that we normally run and there's 2 or 3 dozen cars out there and everybody that gets out has a hydration vest. I, I don't really like hydration vests. I don't like that personally, but that's kind of the gear now. So getting a good hydration vest that you can carry, you know, an extra jacket or your, you know, beverage of choice.

Yeah, the nutrition one or like the hydration one, I think from a safety perspective as well, right? Like just in case you will go further than you would have thought you would, at least having some water on you is a, is a good Good safety measure there, especially when it's hotter out. Sometimes I think people underestimate, and you see that happen even in areas like the Grand Canyon. It's not an average type of trail, but you go down and it's very easy, and then you have to go back up again, and sometimes it gets warmer. At that point, you just want to be careful, and it's better to have a bit extra water on you than to start running out of water.

Yeah, I think one of the big lessons early on is just adapting to the new climate. You know, the first hot run of the year, you've got— and you learn this through experience of, you know, a few bad runs that are your first hot run. But not, not being adapted to the heat can be a real problem if most of your winter running was, was in mild climate, and all of a sudden the first spring day surprises you. It's like you haven't trained at all. You could be out in the middle of this thing like, what happened to me? Usually at this hour or this mile marker, I'm good. What is going on? And usually because it's the first great day and we love the mountains, you go find something with some hills on it and then that just amplifies it. Now all of a sudden you're in the middle of a hill in the middle of the heat and you're just like, that's it.

Hey Floris, I'm curious if you're, let's say that you're driving to a trailhead. So, you're not just walking out the door. There's a little bit of a, time and resource investment to get to the trailhead. And you get to the trailhead and you realize you're missing blank. And because of that, you turn around and go home.

What is that blank going to be?

One thing that comes to mind here was like I drove an hour to Mount Baldy in the San Gabriel Mountains over here. As I got to the, to Bear Canyon, the beginning of it, I was going to go a 16-mile loop. I realized I forgot my running vest, so I had zero water on me. So at that point, I just knew it's not safe for me to do the entire thing. I wasn't going to drive an hour back. So what I ended up doing was I just ended up going for a 6 or 7-mile run, and I stayed within an area where I, I knew the area. So it's It's one of those. I do feel water is the number one that gets people in trouble if you run out of water. And like nutrition, you can— if you keep the running intensity under control, if you run at a low enough heart rate, you're using mostly body fat for energy anyway. So at that point you can go a reasonable amount of time to avoid bonking. But yeah, the water one is, is definitely more tricky. I will say sometimes when I really go into backcountry, I do like bringing a satellite phone just in case something happens and I don't have any phone reception and I'm going to be out there. But that's more because there's some spots where for, for hours you wouldn't have any phone reception. But if, if you typically go to the local trails, you're going to have access to other, like the phone reception or to other people. And it's, it's less needed there.

So do you actually use a satellite phone or just like one of the Garmin inReach?

Yeah, like the Garmin inReach.

Reach once.

Okay, so, okay, yeah, I was gonna say, man, those satellite phones are heavy. You got—

no, no, it's like, it's not in good shape. No, it's like not one of those old brick ones over there.

So, so how about you, Scott? Let's, let's, uh, turn the question to you since we're, uh—

I, I was hoping that you wouldn't, you wouldn't question for me. That's the reason why I asked it, um, that you, you— because I'm kind of embarrassed about this one, and I have actually done this before. I'm probably a little dependent on my wearable computer on my wrist. And not because of a social media, I want to post it so that people can see it. That's the last reason I have one of these. But I like to know what time it is. And I have a little caveat to that. I want to know what time it is. I want to know how many miles I've gone. I want to know how many miles I have left. That, that information that I get from my wearable, I become very dependent on it. And we've had many, many guests come on our podcast that talk about you need to ditch the wearable sometimes and just go out and feel it. And, and I've tried it, and, and it's uncomfortable for me. Maybe I need to do it more. A little caveat that I will tell you is, is a fun little thing that you may not know about Don Freeman is he is a savant when it comes to time. It's crazy, Floris. It's crazy.

In what way? Tell me more.

We will be on a run, and it can be a short run, it could be a long run, and I say, okay, Don, without looking, what time is it? And he'll kind of look, and maybe he'll bend down, grab some dirt, and throw it in the air, and and maybe taste, taste a leaf or something. I don't know what he does, but he will say it's 6:37. And no joke, he's— he is so accurate. I mean, it just blows my mind. It's, it's one of those parlor tricks. He may have— he actually may be— he usually runs behind me because I fall a lot and, and he doesn't want me falling on him. And I'm a lot slower than he is. Maybe he's always looking at his watch anticipating the question, but I'm always just blown away. He knows what time it is.

Just so let me, let me pull the curtain back a little bit.

Wizard of Oz.

Now, now, now Scott runs in Path Project shorts and they have big pockets in the back and he carries his phone in the back.

I always carry my phone.

And, and I can see I can see through that back pocket. I can see the time. He goes, what time is it? It's 6:37.

You're looking at my butt, Freeman.

Yeah, I'm looking at the large pocket and thinking, you know, that's a nice big pocket on the back of this. And so he pulls out his phone, and then there I'm within a minute, because depending on how long it takes him to pull it out. So that's the secret.

Okay, what's that piece of gear that you would turn around and go home because you're missing?

Shoes. Shoes.

Actually, let me tell you another story. Yeah, let me tell you another story. So, you know, Don also has this highly addictive, um, personality, um, where sometimes he doesn't think before he does things. And, um, and we've had many cool guests on the show, and we've had, um, Christopher McDougall on talking about his Born to Run, uh, and we we got into the, the whole very minimalist, and we finally— he and I both got these Vibram FiveFingers.

They look awesome.

And I, I think I still have mine in my closet somewhere. Um, but we thought, this is, this is it. This is the best way to go out and trail run is with Vibram FiveFingers. And, and one day— and we, we had heard experts come on and they say I said, you know, if you do do this, you need to ease into it. Maybe go for an hour or like a 1-mile run and then go back to your shoes and kind of ease into it. Well, Don Freeman just doesn't believe in easing into anything. So we go out on a trail run, it's like an 8-mile run, and he puts on his, his, his Vibram FiveFingers in the parking lot and he goes, no, I'm going the whole 8 miles today. I can't remember, I don't think it turned out well for you.

No, no. I still have some scarring.

Well, it's good you have a lot of experience with the body because I feel like you have been a chiropractor for many years. I'm not sure if you still are, but I remember a lot of experience over there. So you're probably a bit more in tune with the body than most other people there.

You'd think I'd know better, right? But it's kind of, you know, being a chiropractor or being a trail runner, as we all are that are listening to this, we hope that once you're one, you're always that. You're always going to be a runner, no matter whether you're volunteering strictly at an aid station and you don't race anymore, you're still part of the running community. And that's what I like. You know, one of the things, there are people that have stood on the podium, and then that podium may have been 2 decades ago, 3 decades ago, but people still see that person and their knowledge and their presence as a podium runner. And so, you look on them with the same respect. It's not what you do right now, but it's what your history has done, what you've accomplished. And I think, and I hope that all the people that are still in the sport, whether they were on a podium at one time or just wore bibs at one time, that they're still reveled or revealed. What is it? Not revealed means show something, but they're still held in high regard because of what they've done.

You know, I'm going to throw out one of the biggest ahas of my life, not just trail running, is we did a big review. We did multiple episodes on Atomic Habits, James Clear's Atomic Habits.

I love that book. Yes.

And one of the things that changed my life is the whole thing about identity. Now, Floris, if I was to meet you in a grocery store and you're over in the produce section and I saw you, I'd go, "Boy, he looks like a runner." If you saw me in the produce section, first of all, you wouldn't find me in the produce section.

Well, maybe you would.

And you saw me, you would think, Boy, that guy probably needs to hit the gym a little bit and maybe try to go out and do a walk around the block a few times. My body is not a runner's body. And for years, even after running Western States, I did not think I was a runner. I didn't picture myself. I didn't identify as a runner. And I felt like an imposter. And maybe this helps some of the people that are listening to this. After reading that book and internalizing that principle, I thought, "You know what? I don't need to look like a runner to identify as a runner. I am a runner." And that changed a lot of things in my life because once I identified myself as a runner, what do runners do? They wake up in the morning and they go for a run, or they finish their day and they go for a run. And because they did their daily run, then their identity is reinforced. And it's this circle. And regardless of whether it's running, if you identify as a good dad or a good mom or a good brother or a good friend or a hard worker, once you identify yourself as that, your actions are going to follow that identity and reinforce the identity. It's just a circle that's just going to make you just a better, better person.

So well said right there. Yeah, it really is how you see yourself and the talk you do to yourself as well can really impact like the outcome there. And even Jimmy Dean just mentioned an example of his wife, Kate Martini Freeman, was a 5-hour marathoner who didn't see herself really as becoming a faster runner until she went to the Boston Marathon. And she got excited about seeing it, and she started to identify herself with it and started taking small steps closer and closer again. And eventually, after trying hard, like seeing herself more and more as, I'm gonna run the Boston Marathon, she was able to qualify. Modify it over enough time. But it was a switch in our mind that ended up needing to happen before her, like, seeing herself that way. So the other, the other takeaway from James Clear's book to me that stands out is he talks about small habits and making some of these daily tasks really small and achievable. And instead of putting this barrier of, like, I have to go run for an hour today, go put yourself a barrier of all I need to do is put on my shoes, put on my outfit, go out the door for 5 minutes and start. Like, 5 minutes is all I need to do. Because once you're at that 5-minute point, you feel great. You want to keep going and you get that continuous momentum. And like that part, just start to identify more and more with these small wins over enough time there.

Well, I'm just going to tag along there and say It would seem like— so Scott and I run together and we run together often and have for a lot of years. And so I can speak to this from just experience. Quite often we thank each other. Hey, thanks for having me out here today. Thanks for being out here today. But when do we say it? Do we say— and I'll ask you, Scott— do we say it at 5 minutes at the end of the race, at the end of the run, or do we say it 5 minutes into the run? We just start, we're 5 minutes from the car. That's when we deliver the, hey, thanks for getting me out here today. I really am happy to be here. We never say it at the end when we've completed it. It's always at the beginning.

Well, it's not— and I will say it's not right at the beginning as we're starting, because I have a lot of thoughts and they're not very good thoughts sometimes at the very beginning of the run. But once we get your— you get your heart rate up and your sweat going a little bit, that's when we say, hey, you know what, I wasn't going to run today and I wasn't really excited to be out here, but because you were out here, I got Thank you for getting me out here.

Yeah, yeah, that accountability partner goes a very long way there. Exactly. So you guys have interviewed a lot of people over the years. When I look at the Extra Mileast Show, there's been certain patterns with some of my guests. One of them is to talk about the importance of journaling or writing down some of your learnings along the way. It's like, write down, all right, today the plan was this and this is what ended up happening, or this was off for a bit. So I start to tweak this, this works, this doesn't work. Or even after a race, like, these are some of the different things that didn't go as planned. So before your next race, you can read that again. What have been some common lessons or some common takeaways between some of these podcast guests that you guys have had over the years? Is there— are there any similarities or some things that get brought up quite frequently?

Boy, I would say I'm going to speak for Don since I know Don really well.

That's good because Don doesn't know what he's going to say right now. So let me hear what I was thinking.

His favorite discussions, and you can visually see it because we're on video calls, even though we're just recording audio, you can see his eyes kind of sparkle and light up and he sits up a little bit straighter in his chair. When we start talking about the mental side of, of running. He loves that probably more than any topic, and we, we've done a lot of episodes that are all extremely different with some Venn diagram overlapping principles, but he loves that mental side of, of, of running, and those topics just fascinate him. I love to watch him and listen to him when we do episodes like that.

It's the whole sport that's wrapped up in just that nugget, that moment, that internal discussion that you have with yourself. Oh, this is hard. No, I can do it. Oh, I need to change this so I can make it happen. There are so many things that are around the mental game, the ball that bounces around inside your cranium. That piece fascinates me. It can take you out of a race. It can put you into a race. It can do so many things. And it's just, it's that peace. And really, I think that's what the long miles are about, is finding that peace. If you run short, you may not get a chance, unless your intensity is very high, you may not get a chance to be in that spot, in that place, and solve those problems. But if you run long enough, not years-wise, just long enough that day, and you put yourself into that seek that place, you'll have a wonderful relationship. You'll get to learn who you really are. You'll get to meet the you inside of you. That person, for some people, that person is a mystery. They've never met that person. They've never walked in those shoes. They've never struggled in that moment. They've never been in a spot where they had to because life is pretty comfortable in first-world environments. And if you're cold, you— you know, you turn up the thermostat and if you're hungry, you open the fridge. But when you're out there on a long run, there's nobody but you. And it's, it's, it's up to you to get to the next spot, whatever that spot might be. And you've got to talk to yourself about it. You've got to think your way through it. You got to, you got to troubleshoot. It's, it's the sport. I love that part.

Floris, I love that Don just went for about 2 or 3 minutes there and he didn't talk about the dials on an airplane. If I had a nickel for every time he did that in the last 13 years on our podcast where he said, "You know, it's like flying an airplane. You have all these dials out in front of you and you kind of have to monitor each one of those dials." You know why I didn't say that? You did 3 minutes without talking about the airplane cockpit.

Because you say that better than I do now, Scott. I recognize that you own that piece. I don't need to say it.

Yeah, you guys totally know each other quite well after this many episodes. I could tell that much. So yeah, but it is true though. Like the further we get into some of these endurance events, like it's almost like an onion with layers getting peeled off and it becomes more and more raw and a true version of yourself from within. There's no hiding over there.

And I don't want to be misunderstood that you don't have to run the really long, long, long miles. It— you just have to put yourself in a spot that feels like you need to work through it.

And that could be a 10K, it can be a half marathon, because it's beyond what your perceived limits were.

Or, or if you're on a comeback, it could be mile one. Oh yeah, it could be, it could be any distance. Or, or for some, it might be just putting on the gear and, and getting to the, the front step. Maybe that's it. It doesn't matter. But there is that equation there waiting for all of us.

Yeah, for sure. And it is such an exciting part though. Like, I think, yes, there's trail running, but like sometimes trail running also goes hand in hand with ultra running too. So ultra marathon, often beyond the marathon distance, 26.2 miles, 42.2K. So I think this whole part of like wherever you are in your running journey, whether you have run 5K and you're going to go further than 5K, you're going to be in new territory. It can be for someone who has done a half marathon trying to go for the marathon. But do you have any recommendations for anyone wanting to get into like the ultra running distance? Is there anything? Because it is so new for a lot of people, like 20 beyond the marathon. It's, it's a lot of new territory. So curious to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, I raised my hand early to hopefully stop Scott from jumping in because I— not that he does that, but I have a good one to solve this. It's just keeping the workload easy. It should never be hard. And if it's hard, back off because you can't go— you can't do something for a long time that's hard. So find where you feel comfortable, stay in that zone, and then watch the magic happen because the body is very good at at doing things for a long time if you set it up right, as long as you don't sabotage yourself. You can sabotage yourself with pace and electrolytes and, and hydration and, and not having the right proper footwear and having a blister. There's no, no chafage prevention stuff. There's a lot of ways to sabotage yourself. So don't sabotage yourself. Go make it easy and go long. And then probably, probably one of my favorite parts is If you— how do you run 10 miles? You run 5 miles and you turn around and run back. That's how you run 10.

Yep, spot on right there.

You know, I, I was going to say again, it comes back to that little rant that I did about identity. Um, one of the things that I've learned over the years with these wonderful guests we've had is the difference between motivation and discipline. Um, January 1st, you say you have a New Year's resolution. I'm going to be motivated. I'm going to go and do X or Y. Motivation is not always your best friend. It's not always there. Sometimes it doesn't wake up when the alarm goes off. Discipline does. And discipline does not have to be, like you said, Floris, it doesn't have to be today I had on the calendar I need to run 6 miles. Well, for whatever reason, let's say you're not feeling well or your, your, your, your work schedule got messed up, it's all about making sure that you do something that day and be disciplined about it. Don't use motivation as the cue for you to take action. The cue for you to take action is discipline. And that's, that's probably what I— the advice I would give. I was just talking, I was at a conference with some of my workmates, and one of the runners that, one of the guys that I work with is a good recreational runner, and he says, you know, I just haven't run for over a year now. He says, I go for walks, but I haven't run. And I go, well, going for walks, first of all, going for walks is great. But I said, as you're going out for your walk, or even if you don't do something that day, just put on your shoes and run to the end of the block and back. That means you did it. It's like, what was that YouTube video years ago where some general said, make your bed every day? And I remember that, that's the thing that builds on greatness, is you've got to get up and make your bed. How long does it take to make your bed? I don't know, a minute, 2 minutes. You need to get out and do something. Discipline means you you get up and you do something. Let's say you slept in and you have a call at 8 o'clock with your boss. Well, you wake up at 7:50 or 7:45, put on your shoes, go out and run down to the end of the block and back. Bam, you just accomplished being a runner. Yeah.

So well said. The motivation comes and goes. It really goes in waves, but it's sometimes like the habits or the systems that you can set up that you can do day in, day out without even having to think about it too.

It's—

here's one example. I'm, I'm the worst when it comes to mobility or strength training. All I want to do is go out and run and I know I should be doing this stuff. It just often doesn't happen, right? But then what I ended up doing in the morning now, it is when I get up, I end up just doing 5 minutes of like the knees over toe guy, like just like up lifting my toes up and doing a few calf raises. That alone, it almost became a non-negotiable that I've noticed that that strengthens my calves, my Achilles, and just those little things already become part of the habit and the routine there.

You know, along with that, David Roche, the great coach, taught me a valuable lesson. I hate speed training, and I don't think I've ever been on a track ever, except for Western States, where I didn't even have to run around the whole track. It was only part of the track. And so I— speed training doesn't interest me. I have no interest. And he taught me that even you're out on your normal run, do a session of repeats where you run hard or sprint for 20 seconds, just 20 seconds, and then recover, and then do it again for 20 seconds. And I thought, What is this gonna do? This isn't gonna help me at all. I'll tell you what, it helps, and it doesn't take that much time, and it's easy.

Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Don, I do wanna, hear your story about the, the 200-mile race because I know you've done— you guys have both ran 100-mile or 100-mile races, but at some point that transitioned to a 100-miler that ended up becoming a Triple Crown 3x100 miler. So how did that all unfold?

Well, I think it happened because of Scott, right on a podcast. And we were interviewing Candice Burt, who is the race director for the 200s. And I think it was similar to my story that I started the podcast with. Yeah, I'd like to do that someday, Jeff. I'd like to run a marathon. Well, I said the same thing about a 200 and And, uh, I, I, I did try to clean it up quickly and say to Scott, I'll never run a 200. I texted it to him. I thought it was ridiculous.

I have the text. I have the text on my phone. I took a picture of it. It's on my phone that says, Scott, I will never, ever, ever run a 200-mile race.

It's, it's longer than you should have to run. And, and, and, and I ran it just because I was called out and publicly stating, yeah, I'm going to do it. So I did it. And that was year one. And then, and then year two, the next year came along and I thought, you know, that wasn't that bad and maybe I could do a bit better. And, and I did it. I was only going to do one of those and I ran it. What was that? It was— I was there in Washington. Bigfoot.

Yeah, I went, I went, I went up to Washington with him and crewed him. For the 200 up there. And his plan was— his first one was the Tahoe 200, and then he said, you know, that was kind of fun. So we decided we'd both go up to, to, um, to Bigfoot, and, and he ran that. And then what happened after that?

Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell that piece of the story, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump backwards to the first 200. And I, and I thought to myself, uh, I— there's no way I can do this. But I think I can if I keep my effort low and I just keep it slow and not try to abuse myself, not raise my heart rate too high, and just exist. I think there's no shot that— because I could easily bonk it at a small mile. I better keep myself under control. And I did all the way through. I only— my longest run was 30 miles before that 200-mile race. I did one of those. The rest were all 15-mile run or 8-mile runs. Very small. Not a lot of, not a lot of runs. I just, I figured I ran a year before that. I ran a 100-mile race with my long run of 15 miles. And so my next one, my, I said, if I would do, I could do 100 miles with 15 miles of training, I should be able to do 200 miles with 30 miles.

Are you, are you reading into Don's mind as he's explaining this? There's no logic at all.

It made sense, but that's the point. It only had to make sense to me, you know. That was what my brain was wrapped around it. I said, yeah, that can work. And so we did one 30-mile run and then off to do a 200. And so then the next year came along and I did the, the Bigfoot because it was different and it was somewhere else. So I went and did it. And if you want to find out what kind of friends you have, make him a, make him a pacer and a crew. That guy volunteered for 3+ days. You know, he was there at every single spot that he could access by a car, middle of the night, first of the— didn't matter what, first part of the day, he had the car ready for me. He put the seat heater on because it was freezing, put the heater on, and he dumped me in there for 20 minutes. He stood outside because it stunk on the inside, and he just let me get myself back together and sent me on my way. And I'd meet him at the next one. Scott is a true, true friend, and I nominate him for a pacer if somebody needs to do a long race. And so, I got done with that one, and then my friend Bob Crowley was going to run the 200, which was up next. And I thought, how fun would it be just to show up and surprise him at the beginning of the race? So, Thursday night, race starts— race starts Thursday afternoon, race starts Friday morning. I start packing my bag and go, I'm going to run a 200. So off I went. That's when they were easier to get into. And so I showed up all for the, all for the surprise look on Bob's face. I did a 200. I questioned my sanity at that point. I'm 3 days off of this run. And I said, was it really worth Bob's face surprise that morning? And, and in looking back on it, yes.

And then wait, wait, wait, before you go to the next one, or you're going to go to the next one.

Well, yeah, I'd rather hear you than me.

I need to put a little caveat there. So we become friends with Candus. He goes and runs the Bigfoot. He comes back and took some time off to go up in the mountains of Tahoe and help Candus mark the Tahoe 200. And then he gets back and we're talking, you know, and Thursday rolls around. He goes, hey, Scott, I'm actually driving up to Tahoe tonight. I'm going to run the Tahoe 200 tomorrow morning. I went, you just spent like— you just threw up in the mountains for like 40 miles marking the trail, and now you're going to go run it?

At least he knows the trail now. At least he's familiar with the course.

Yeah.

So at that point, I completed 2 of the Triple Crown, and these are all like 4 weeks apart. And so, you know, I'm not going to do that ever again. I'm not going to go run 200s, then have an opportunity to go run the third. So, I went and did it. And I was in 5th place of the group that were all— I've never been 5th place in anything, maybe in line at the grocery store. That's it. So, I thought, what chance do I have ever being 5th? Even if I finish, you know, even I'm at least 5th because I think there's only 5 of us doing it. And so, off I went to Moab and that was in Utah and it was 240 miles and it was, It was a tough race.

And, and another funny story, I don't know whether we've even said this on the podcast, one of the— just one of my favorite Don stories is, of course, he, he was a chiropractor, self-employed, so he didn't take off a week before to drive out to Moab and get acclimated and all that sort of stuff. The race starts, let's say, I don't know when it starts, let's say it starts Friday morning at 6 o'clock. So Don decides to leave California, Northern California, to drive to Moab, Utah, which is like a 13, 14-hour drive the night before. So he drives out to Moab, he gets to the race at like the wee hours of the morning, uh, after midnight for sure, falls asleep in the parking lot of the, of the, the starting line. And 6 o'clock— I don't know what time it starts, but let's say it's 6 o'clock He wakes up, looks at his watch, and he goes, you know, I'm going to have to sleep on the trail at least some point during this 200. I'm going to take my first sleep break now. And so he slept in purposefully and missed the start by an hour. I think he overslept. Everybody left an hour before he did, and then he rolled out of his car and started running. He was late to the start an hour, and he did really well. He completed it and Pretty amazing feat in my opinion.

Unbelievable.

So, those are the fun stories we all get to tell, right? Well, everybody that shares a race story wants to hear the ugly part. No one's going to say, "Oh, and I did this great and this happened. I was floating on a cloud and I was passing people." That's not the story we want. We want to hear when the chaos happened, when everything was going the wrong way, and somehow, You know, through all of this adversity, you came out the other side and this is what happened to me and here's my shirt. You know, people want to— that's the story people want to hear and that's the people story you want to tell.

And how many times do we retell that story with our friends on subsequent runs, right? I don't know how many times I've told some of these stories of you. I think I actually tell them better than you do.

Of course you do. And I enjoy them because they change a little bit each time and they, they get a little bit bigger. And, and, uh, so I enjoy hearing them. So thanks.

I've, I've been there at, uh, at Cocodona sleeping in the back of my car while we had 4, 4 of our PATH crew members like running that race. And I was just, I didn't have to crew one in particular, so I could just show up with my car where it was kind of convenient. So I was still able to get a few hours of sleep here and there, but just seeing the rawness of what people go through at different stages of their races. I mean, like here, the first year of Cocodona, like they ran out of water, or like there was a longer stretch at the beginning at around mile 25, and some of the people were already at a bonk state kind of like early on in the race. And then luckily they were able to resupply water and it all worked out. But then seeing like foot management of the importance of dealing with blisters early on and dealing with, with sleep and strategically taking sleep breaks and like just seeing the emotional roller coaster that people go through on a race. It's, it's fascinating in any race, different distance, but it just gets amplified in the ultra distance, it seems.

So, well, that, that's why we love the sport, you know. I think everybody that's, that's listening has a story, and everybody loves it for, for, uh, probably reasons that parallel. The stories might be different, but when you, if you dig down through them, like you've talked about, Floris, peeling back the onion, when, when we get down to the very center of that onion, all the stories are a little bit different, but the, the core is the same. We like to do things because they're hard and challenge ourselves and, and come out a victor. Yes.

And I don't know if it's unique. I'm sure there's other sports that are like this that I can't think of right now, but it's a very individual sport. But you're supported by a community and a team. So it's not a team sport, and it's not, you know, a solo— you, you have the, the support and the help of an entire community, an entire team that's out there.

Absolutely. And the beauty is it doesn't have to be, like, ultra distances either. There's, like, short, trail races now too. I see 5K trail races, 10K trail races. So It becomes much more accessible for everyone over here. I want to be respectful of your guys' time. I have one more closing question here, but before I do, where can people find more about you, about the podcast? Tell us more.

TrailrunnerNation.com. We have a website. We got smart at some point and had hired somebody to take care of the website because Don and I are not web designers. There's a lot of information there. And then, you know, wherever you listen to podcasts, I think we're, we're there.

All of the different platforms. You guys have a newsletter as well that you send out on a weekly, so I'll make sure to link to all that in the show notes. And then closing question over here is there's quite some people listening that are looking like non-elite runners, recreational runners, like like you and I that have like regular jobs, that enjoy running, going out there, but looking to become a stronger, healthier, and happier athlete. Do you guys have any closing thoughts, any advice you want to share here?

I'll start. You know, this is a habit that I started recently because my, my work schedule was very— it fluctuated quite a bit. I work a lot with international colleagues. And so sometimes I, during the early mornings here in North America, I'd have to be on a call, and so I couldn't get out and do my morning run. What I, what I did that really helps me is a week before, I go and I actually block off on my work calendar times for runs. And, and luckily I work for a company that, that values a well-rounded employee, and, and Sometimes those runs could be middle of the day during the workday, but they recognize that that's important. So if I block that off on my work calendar, then other people can't sabotage that time. And that's been a real, real help for me.

I like that. That's a good one.

That is a good one, Scott. I don't think I have a good one after you've said that. I think that— I think I should have gone first and you And you end with that.

But peek in there.

Yeah, yeah, that was— don't let me come through here and, uh, throw, throw the water on this, uh, beautiful fire that you just lit. So what I think, um, people just should be compassionate with themselves. Don't be so hard on yourself. There's, there's peaks and valleys in life. And one of the things we've learned talking to people is there's such thing as emotional stress. And that weighs on you. You can't always measure how well you're doing by looking at a watch. Sometimes you just need to go out there and enjoy it and let it— be compassionate with yourself. Let it be an easy run, a slow run. Don't judge yourself and just enjoy yourself. And I think that would be probably one of the most important takeaways that I've learned.

If usually we're Type A personalities, I'm just going to dovetail on you, Don. Most of us are Type A personalities, and if we miss a run, we beat ourselves up about it. And, and again, a lesson I learned from David Roche is I would send him a thing. He coached me for a while, and I sent him a thing. I said, hey, I didn't get out there, but I'm gonna take that and I'm gonna move it to tomorrow, which is my rest day. And he goes, nope, no you're not. That's in the past. Forget about it. Tomorrow's your rest day. You rest. And get back on your schedule. And so I think that that grace, if you miss something because of whatever, give yourself some grace.

Spot on. You guys shared so many good insights over here. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you. I really mean that. You guys have done so much good content over the years. You're a bright light in the running community and really looking forward to seeing more episodes from your guys' end in the future. And also, we'll be seeing you guys probably at Western States this year or in the coming years. Looking forward to more trail miles together with you guys.

Fantastic, Floris. We really appreciate what you're doing with your, your podcast as well. You have great content.

Appreciate that. Thank you so much. We'll talk more soon again.

Thank you.

Cheers. Thank you for listening. I hope this conversation also got you excited to get out on on the trail some more. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this conversation? Please let me know in the comments on YouTube. I'll be giving away a $100 gift card to pathprojects.com running apparel, and this is the only apparel that I wear for running and for daily life as well. It is headwear, shirts, shorts, pants, and a whole lot more. So one winner will be from the comments on YouTube. Also, if you would like to find out more about my running coaching program, from 5K marathons all the way to the ultra distances, check out pbprogram.com. That is the Personal Best Program at pbprogram.com. Thanks for listening and have fun out there on your runs. Bye now.