#82: How To Crush MAF Low Heart Rate Training with Scott Frye

Give yourself a lot of grace. Don't expect it to come immediately. This is worth working for. This is worth enduring. So it's going to take time. It's going to take a lot of patience on your part. It is so worth it. At first, it's going to be mental. It's not going to be physical. It's going to be mental. I tell you what, once you get on the other side of that mental struggle, it opens up a whole new world and you just want to keep exploring it.

My name is Floris Gierman, host of the Extra Mileage Show, and today I have a conversation with Scott Frye. Scott is a board-certified athletic trainer and a corrective exercise specialist. He is also a coach and community member of our Personal Best Running coaching program, and we have definitely connected many times over the years. You can find more about the Personal Best program at pbprogram.com. Those are the letters pbprogram.com. In this conversation, we discuss the different lessons that Scott learned about his low heart rate training journey, common mistakes that athletes make in training and racing, and advice to non-elite runners looking to improve. This episode was brought to you by Element. Element is a delicious electrolyte drink mix without the sugar or other dodgy ingredients found in popular electrolyte and sport drink mix. On the Extra Mileage Show, I often talk about the importance of hydration and that many athletes underfuel. That is both in calories but also in hydration. 10% in electrolytes. Electrolyte deficiencies or imbalances can cause headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog, and weakness. Hydration with electrolytes is crucial to have a great endurance race, and many athletes overlook this. LMNT is used by everyone from the NBA, NFL, NHL players, Olympic athletes, Navy SEALs, to everyday moms and dads and exercise enthusiasts. Right now, Element is offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order. That is 8 single-serving packages free with any Element order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors or share Element with a salty friend. Get yours at drinkelement.com/flow. This deal is only available through my link. You must go to drinkelement.com/flow. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Scott Fry. Hello, Scott. Welcome to the Extra Mile Show. Good to see you again.

Thank you, Floris. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm honored, and it's great to see you as well.

Good. Well, we have spent quite a few Zoom sessions together. You've been a part of the Personal Best program for quite a while, both as a very active community member, as a coach, and you do a lot of your other coaching outside of that as well. Really excited to take a deep dive into running, into training, into different lessons learned from coaching over the years. But maybe we can start out with some of your background as a runner. Have you always been running marathons, or when did you do your first marathon, and how did that go for you?

It was interesting, um, beginning, uh, in my collegiate years, I was a student athletic trainer, and I worked track and field and cross country. And I often brag to people it was the longest 10 years of that year. In other words, it felt like 10 years in one year, having to work track and field and cross country, and now I can't get enough of it. It's so funny how that's turned full circle. My first marathon was in 2010. Uh, I had a goal, and I talked to several people about this, and they encouraged me. I said, I want to do something that, that is monumental, that's hard to do, that, you know, I can hang my hat on. And they said, y'all run a marathon. We have a local marathon here in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City Memorial. It's coming later this month in April. I said, okay. I think I can do that. And after about 2 or 3 years of false starts, I finally got it in in 2010, right before I turned 40. So before I turned 40, I did it, and I ran that marathon in 4 hours and 40 minutes. And when I crossed that finish line, I swore I would never, ever do it again. I literally walked stiff-legged 4 blocks to my truck to go home and swore up and down, never again.

That sounds so recognizable because I literally had the same experience when I crossed the line. And I know many people listening probably can relate as well. You will always remember your first marathon, yet still somewhere along the way, you decided to sign up for another marathon and to go about training differently along the way too. So tell us a little bit more how it evolved from there and some of the things you learned along the way.

So one of the things that always stuck with me from that first marathon was I didn't realize how fun it would be, uh, not the end of it, but— and not the, the towards the end, but during the marathon when you had people cheering for you. I never had experienced that, and that was unique. That was wonderful. And I I was like, this is the coolest thing, this is wonderful. And that, I think, always stuck with me, uh, in the back of my head. And so again, after running several 10Ks and races and, and starting to get to enjoy running again, I wanted to get back to it. I, I felt like I just wanted to get back into running. And so throughout my 40s, I, I ran, uh, for a decade, I, I ran just on my own, just you know, how I felt and went with it and would run races and, and improved in time. You know, I, I wasn't— I was in horrible shape for— as a runner in, uh, 2010. And so I improved better each, uh, year and ran a few races, ran some 10Ks, ran a half marathon, ran another half marathon. It's like— and ran, uh, a relay. And I'm like, okay, I think maybe before I turn 50, I can do another one. I think that sounds like a great idea. And so I began training. I trained the exact same way that I did before, and the training actually went quite well. And I started getting up my mileage, and mentally I said, okay, you've done 20-mile runs before, you can do this again. And so I, you know, kept going with it, kept going with it, and You know, I'm feeling good. I'm enjoying it. It's, it's wonderful. And then COVID hit and it canceled all of our races. And so I had to make a choice. Uh, they first said they were going to postpone until the fall. I'm like, oh, how could you do that and make us work through the entire summer? This Oklahoma summer is brutal, you know, it's hard to run in. And so, uh, how did you do that to us? And, uh, when the fall 2020 came, they cancelled and they went virtual. And so I signed up for the virtual half marathon and ran that, had a good time running by myself 13.1 miles and turned in my timesheet and, you know, got the medal and all that, uh, and then delayed my entry until 2021. So I didn't quite make it until I was 50, but, you know, I turned, uh, I wasn't going to turn 50 or I was going to turn 51 before I ran the next one. And so I went back to training and, uh, continued that. The summer of '21, when I'm training for that next marathon— it was to be held in the fall— I got injured. I ran a 16-mile run and I hurt. My knee hurt, my leg hurt, and I thought, what's going on? Okay, here you are, you're supposed to be a movement specialist, you're supposed to understand exactly what's going on with every movement, what's happening. What's going on? And I was literally at my wit's end, just knowing what to do. And later that day, I had a haircut, sitting in my, uh, waiting for my barber, and, uh, opened up Instagram, and there was an ad for the Maffetone, Phil Maffetone, and the Maffetone Method, and Maff Method, run injury-free. Okay, what's this? And I started reading. I Whoa, this kind of makes sense. And just, it literally spoke to me, spoke to me right there. Okay, so I looked up all of Dr. Maffetone's information, found courses that he did, went to YouTube and started looking in Maffetone math method, found the Extra Miles podcast. And led me into this journey to where I am today, a Boston Marathoner.

Now, that's been quite a, quite a journey. What was your first experience like with low heart rate training? Because you were not really aware of heart rate zone training. How did that initially go, and what were some of the things you ran into?

I was aware of the zone training, of course, for my, my education, but I didn't understand it. And, uh, yeah, the, the first experience was, was absolutely horrible. It was, it was god-awful terrible. And the reason was I had been training in zone 4, zone 5, just running, you know, running to where I could. My heart rate was in the 170s when I was training, and it should be in the 130s if I follow the method. So when I set out to follow the MAP method, I did my first MAP test. I was used to running 9-minute miles. Sometimes even faster than that. And I got on that track and I got that alarm set, and when I finished the 5 miles on that track, I was so frustrated at 12 minutes and 31 seconds a mile. So frustrated, so undone, so discouraged. But there was something in me that said, you know, You're going slow enough. This can help. You're not hurting anymore. So maybe there is something to it. Maybe there's something. And it said you got to give it time. And little did I know, I think age plays a little bit of a factor in it, but I think even more when you have trained not in a zone 2 way, if you've trained higher, it's going to take you a lot longer to adapt. And you must be patient in adapting to the Zone 2 training, to the Maffetone Method, in order to get the maximum benefits. It took me literally almost 9 months to truly understand and, and actually see great progress in, uh, in low heart rate training.

It can surely be challenging at the beginning, for sure. And I think this is one of the things we often hear from people too, especially in the early stages. We're so used to training at a specific pace and so focused on pace and how far did we run. And all of a sudden, it's like, all right, pace kind of goes out of the window. We're going more by intensity. We're going more by, like, conversational pace or being able to breathe, have, like, keep the heart rate relative under control. And yeah, and then the whole switch to not necessarily having that same pace anymore, going significantly slower, focusing a bit more on time on feet, there's— it is one of the most common challenges I think people run into at low heart rate training is that frustration. Yet once you can start overcoming some of that and once you start to gain some positive momentum and you notice that, hey, I can finish a workout and have some more energy left, like, what were some of the things besides like the body not feeling injured or like the body like being able to cope with it a bit better? Like, what were some of the things that you noticed? Both obviously you had the frustrations, but what were some of the positive things and why did you decide to stick with this for a bit longer?

Interesting enough, at the same time that, uh, I started low heart rate training, I also read a book by David Sinclair called Healthspan or Lifespan. That book really talked to the nutritional side of the same thing that Dr. Maffetone speaks about and what's in the Personal Best program as well. And so I started attacking the nutritional side. I started— I had not been doing intermittent fasting. I'd taken in way too much sugar and not knowing, understanding that I was taking in too much sugar. I didn't realize that and realize the power of cold, even though I use cold as cryotherapy all the time. I didn't realize the power that it would have to be able to help the body each and every day. And so I was making these changes all together at the same time without understanding truly, you know, how well it could fit together. And I started seeing positive results. You know, I started dropping weight quickly too. Uh, you just get rid of that sugar and it's amazing how quickly that goes. And I think that's what helped with the low heart rate training.

You know, I didn't—

I wasn't fooling around near as much, uh, so that helped as well. And gradually, you know, it did get a little bit better. I remember the first time it was probably— again, I started this, I started this in July in, in the heat of summer. And trying to do low heart rate training in the heat of summer is so difficult. But by middle of August, I started seeing where I wasn't walking as much, and that helped a little bit. And then into September, I started running a little bit more and a little bit more. And again, I was, I was really working on the nutritional side, and I was working on the sleep side too, a little bit. Uh, not near as much as I needed to, but trying to implement all these different things, trying to, to get a cold shower in, uh, every day, trying to do breathwork every day, trying to do meditation more every day and relax, and then improve the diet and work on the low heart rate training. And that's when it started kicking in for me.

It's so interesting how there's so much beyond just running, right, that can make a positive impact on our health journey, not just our running journey. And I think even, even for me, I've noticed similar things in the early stages. Once I started paying closer attention to the nutrition, all of a sudden I started feeling the energy levels just improve. I didn't have those afternoon big dips anymore. Like, I didn't have that being addicted to caffeine just to stay awake. And I think that part alone made a huge positive difference there. And it almost becomes like this cycle of like, okay, you start to notice that your running becomes a bit better or easier, and you want to continue to watch what you consume. And then you also notice like, all right, if I have a poor night's sleep, then that also impacts my running goes and my resting heart rate increases. And so all of these different things, you just become more aware of it. I think a lot of people initially are not that very much in tune with their body. And the more you can start dialing in these different areas, the more of a positive benefit it can have there long term.

Yeah. How many times have we said in the Personal Best community, okay, you're running, suffering a little bit. What's the rest of your life like? What's your sleep like? What's your stress level like? How's your nutrition? It plays such a huge part in the entire running program, but life in general, just as you say.

Absolutely. Let's talk about your coaching experience for a little bit, because obviously you've had your own running journey and you've learned a lot of things along the way. But you have seen many different people as well going through different stages of running training and on their health journey. What has been some of the common mistakes mistakes that you have encountered other people make and, and how they can actually like fix some of these mistakes?

First one's quitting too soon. It's very easy to do it. Um, you know, you give yourself 2 or 3 weeks, you think, oh, I'm gonna master in that time. And just like you said before, they get the pace mentality. I see so many comments, uh, and I, I've had dealt with people that they're, they're concerned about their pace, and I try to tell You're thinking incorrectly. Pace is a byproduct. Your low heart rate training— you must develop the aerobic system. You must build your mitochondria. Then the pace will come. But if you don't build the aerobic system, you don't allow that mitochondria to grow to be able to fuel your cells, you're not going to have the pace. It's as simple as that. You're gonna— yes, you could probably go out for a little bit, but you're going to bonk. You know, you've got to be able to burn fat for a long period of time. I try to, to explain to people the body's like a hybrid car, but I do it a little differently because, you know, here in America, our hybrid cars, the battery just lasts so long, but you have a huge gasoline tank. And I try to tell everybody, your gasoline tank's like your fat. You know, you can go a steady beat for a long time on that one tank of gas, but once you start picking up pace and going, now you're going to your electric, and that's only going to last for long before you got to recharge that sucker. And if you go too long, it's going to be out of juice. What are you going to do then? So I think that analogy helps them to understand that, okay, I need to tap into this larger source, and the only way to do it is to get the heart rate down.

Yeah, patience surely is a big one that keeps coming back there. And, and indeed, I think a lot of people want short-term results. They really are like, oh, I'm gonna give this a go for 3 weeks and I'm not seeing any improvements. It's like, well, you might be surprised how many people hit plateau for quite a while or go backwards first before they start improving. Like, if you've, if you have pushed it for years and like the amount of people that are overtrained or overstressed from the like full-on anxiety society that we live in right now, I think, yeah, just realizing the amount of information overload, the amount of like stress that people experience in their daily lives, that all has an impact on what you can handle training-wise. And so Yeah, being patient, thinking longer term, thinking in more months and years versus weeks, I think it's a big one over there. And throwing those frustrations out of the window and just seeing it as having the ability to slow down and seeing around you and experiencing, smell the flowers. And it sounds all hallelujah, but I think once you get to experience the joy of being able to move injury-free and consistent and just getting out there, spending time on feet, like, that's wonderful. And I think not, not everyone gets to that point, let's say it like that.

I totally agree with you, and you bring up a good point. And again, in my personal story, uh, training for Chicago last fall, uh, when I qualified for, uh, Boston in April at our Oklahoma City Marathon, I thought, okay, this is great, I've had a great time. Okay, I want to get a little faster. Okay, I need to work on speed work. And boy, is that where the injuries came. Uh, it was the totally the wrong move for me. I should not have been doing that. I should have been just steadily increasing a little bit better because I was doing great. It's doing great with low heart rate training. I was putting in a couple of speed sessions a week. It was going great. And here I thought I would— okay, I'm gonna crank it up, I'm I'm going to do a little bit more, I'm going to get a little bit faster. And my body broke down. I had not had plantar fasciitis issues for a decade and a half, and as soon as I started in and going faster, bam, here it came. And I've been fighting that for a year. It's finally just now getting to the point where it's like, okay, I think we're on the other side of the hill and we're doing fine now. So, but just to, you know, when you get impatient, you want to chase that speed it can have a detrimental effect if you're not careful.

Absolutely. And even when you add in speed work after you've been doing low-intensity training for a while, don't go out 10 out of 10 high intensity right away. Ease into those speed sessions too. Gradually increase the intensity, the duration, the training load, and let the body get used to that for a bit. And yeah, there's definitely a few different ways to go about it. But yeah, I think there is a time and place for high-intensity running, but your body has to be ready for it and you have to go about it the right way. So that's a big one. What are some— there's different people that experience challenges, but there's also quite some people who experience major breakthroughs in their running or forward momentum that they haven't experienced previously. Is there any success stories or any Anything that stands out from you, what you sometimes see among runners through a low-intensity training approach?

I see even in the Personal Best community, I love seeing when that, when that switch clicks, uh, and when we celebrate that in the community. There have been numerous people both on Facebook and on Strava where it says, it works, I did it came through, you know. I, I was, I was, uh, after a month, after 3 months, after 6 months, you know, it finally, it clicked in. I'm doing better. My times are going down. I feel better. I'm moving better, you know. And it— the, the times that you sit there and just encourage them through those, those issues, uh, through those hours, if you will, is Don't give up. It's going to get better. Like I said, it took me 9 months, and I think it took me 9 months because I was so highly anaerobic adaptive. I had to bring myself down to aerobic, and I think that's what a lot of people see in that. But boy howdy, when they, when they turn that corner, oh, it is— it's like angels are singing for them. And it's just, it's just wonderful to see, you know. You can, you can just see the joy in their words that it happened, it happened. And all I want to do is say just keep going. You know, again, do the thing that got you there and just keep going. It's going to get better. It's going to get even better.

Sometimes we have to go through challenges first to start seeking elsewhere. Sometimes we have to blow up in a race. Sometimes something bad has to happen in training or racing to start realizing like, ah, maybe there are different ways of going about this. I'm not saying a low heart rate training intensity is right for everyone. But I think more people— like, there's still quite a few people don't realize, like, when you take a longer-term view and you're actually patient throughout that process, you gradually build up, you reduce the risk of injury, and you're flexible throughout your training, that we can accomplish way more than we think. And sometimes— and that's And that's the part that I enjoy seeing as well, where you literally start seeing people like, oh my God, I can't believe I actually ended up qualifying for the Boston Marathon. I ran my first half marathon without feeling like I was going to die, or whatever that moment is for that person. But I think getting to new territory beyond what we even thought was possible by taking a longer-term view instead of I'm going to do this by next week or next month kind of thing.

Yeah, if you told me 10 years ago, do you think you'd ever qualify for Boston Marathon? No way, no way. But adapting the low heart rate training, that fall marathon after I started in July— so I started in July and that marathon was the 1st of October, and I just took— I never did any speed work and I just took the low heart rate training with me. I knew I wasn't going to run low heart rate in the, in the marathon. It just near impossible, but I figured I could, I could stay close, you know, for the first at least 3 or 4 miles and then see how it goes from there. And again, my first marathon in 2010 was 4 hours 40 minutes. Uh, that October marathon was 4 hours and 15 minutes. And to this day, my Strava, uh, avatar is the picture of me crossing the finish line, and it's just punching the air with the fist because I'm just so excited that here I thought I may not be able to make a marathon. And not only did I not make— I did— not only did I make the marathon, I crushed it for my, uh, previous one. And I just— I was probably one of the happiest moments of my life making that accomplishment. And then it just continued with the training and just got better. He got better and he got better.

There's something special when you can finish a race, get towards the end of the race, still be able to maintain a pace or possibly even pick up a pace or hang on for dear life, but get to the finish line and have that kind of a fulfilled feeling. There's something absolutely wonderful about that. And to be honest, there's not always that many people experiencing that. Like, when I sometimes hear about someone who did a race, I often go to Strava and just look at mile 20 from a marathon or like 32K into a marathon. All right, was this person able to hang on for dear life? Were they able to— like, you very often see people just dropping by many minutes per mile, per kilometer, but then actually seeing plenty of people also being able to maintain that pace and like digging deep, still having to work hard for it, but still being able to maintain that pace versus hitting the wall. That's right.

The fact that they can actually— they've got something inside of them, they can finish the race even stronger. You know, that, that shows a lot.

What are some misconceptions that you think are out there with low heart rate training? Have you come across any frequent ones that are being brought up?

I think there are two. I think the, uh, as we discussed before, the timing— how long it takes to get low heart rate training to actually implement for yourself and have success from it. I think a lot of people feel like a couple weeks to a month and they're, they're going to see this huge success.. And, you know, some do, but a lot don't. And that's a difficult pill to swallow. You know, we're in a society that wants instant gratification. We want it now. You got to work for this. You know, if you want it, you got to work for this. But if you're willing to be patient, if you're willing to give yourself enough grace, it's going to reward you more than you ever knew because it's going to reward you in health. In longevity. You're going to have a much happier life for the fact that you feel better and you can move around and you can continue to do things. So there's so much more upside to it than that little bit of downside that you have to get through. So I think that's the first biggest misconception. And the second one is, I'm not sure I can get fast. And I think where that misconception lies is people look at pace. They only look at pace. They don't see the physiology behind it. They don't understand that there is a specific physiology that occurs when you go to low heart rate training. You tap into using fat as your primary fuel source, and you've got plenty of it, and it'll sustain you for a very long time. And that's a good thing. It's there to help you go a long distance, and you build mitochondria. You get that mitochondria built. More mitochondria you have in your cells, the more it can fuel your cells, the longer and faster you can go without having to put in any more effort. Now, I think it's just huge, you know, besides the aerobic endurance that it gives you.

So well said right there. I want to talk a little bit more about speed work. How do you go about balancing speed work and low heart rate training to optimize your performance without overtraining?

Well, that's a good question because you take it from my experience, I did both. I overtrained. You know, we talked about training for Chicago, and that's where I really screwed up with speed work. I tried to go too fast. I tried to put in too much. My body didn't want to do that. So, uh, I looked back at what was bringing up my success with speed work, and I was noticing that instead I was it for Chicago. I was trying to— when I was training for it, I was trying to train for a specific run, a specific pace at a specific time. I should not have been doing that. I should have been running more at— that speed worked for me. I should have been running more towards feel. And, uh, you know, you're picking up the pace, you're moving a little bit faster, but you're not looking at your watch seeing what the pace is. You're just going. And for Boston, that's what I did. And I went into Boston with a huge smile on my face. Just, I can't tell you. I took a picture of it. I'll have to share it sometime. But I've just got a big old grin on my face at the start line. I don't know that I've ever been at a start line that I've not just been nervous and shaking and, you know, anxious to go. I got this big old grin on my face just a few days ago, and it was just, it was lovely. So I think that's the, that's biggest misconception is trying to find a pace. Well, I've got to hold this pace. I've got to do this. No, you've got to hold a pace that your body can do. Understand what that pace is. Push yourself a little bit. Don't push yourself too much.

Yeah, it's a funny feeling indeed when you're at the start line and there's that combination of possibly slight race nerves of like, I'm going to do something quite challenging. But then also trying to calm yourself down and actually being present in the moment. And sometimes I, even last month at the Tokyo Marathon, I was literally standing there looking around me. It's like, all right, we're going to be running the streets of Tokyo here for the next few hours and just taking it all in. And you see everyone around you nervous. And then, yeah, I think focusing on the breath and being present at that moment and just being thankful for making it to the start line healthy and well and being able to run the streets. Yeah, that's a good one.

Absolutely. Yeah, there's so much to say for that. So much to say.

Talk to me a little bit more about that Boston Marathon experience, because sometimes we go into a race and everything goes according to plan, and sometimes we have a plan and it doesn't always work out the way we had anticipated it. So what went well? What didn't go according to plan? And what are some of the lessons you take away for your next race out of this?

You know, Boston— this is my first Boston and might be my only Boston. I'm not sure, but, you know, you never know. But there are no plans in the future for right now. But I wanted to take in everything, just as you said, from Tokyo. I wanted to take in everything that I could. I wanted this to be a most memorable experience. And like I said, standing at that start line, that was the first time that I've been in a marathon that I've not had the jitters. That I was just having fun. And it was— I was unbelievable. But it was so funny because at the same time I'm like, here we go. And you know, they, they blow the horn for our wave to go, and, and I'm, I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I'm turning on all my devices. You know, I got my watch. I always run with two watches. I feel comfortable with two watches. I've got a heart rate monitor that goes to both watches, so that's wonderful. And so I got the watches ready to go, and I got the heart rate monitor, and I hit the heart rate monitor to start And it doesn't start. And I'm like, every plan that I have is going downhill real quick. And we start walking, we start walking. Unfortunately, I was, I was back far enough in the corrals that I had a little ways to go before it started. And I'm like, okay, okay. And thank the Lord, uh, he must have touched my iPhone because all of a sudden it clicked on and everything worked. And it started working probably be 10 steps away from the start line, and I got everything started, and here we went. So that went well. My goal was to have fun. Second goal was to finish. And third goal was to hopefully get another BQ in Boston. First goal accomplished. I, I went to the side of the road. I saw little kids there. I wanted to high-five them all, and we were just high-fiving. I wasn't running any faster. I wasn't doing anything. As a matter of fact, I had so many people As you know, Boston is so hilly on the start, that downhill for nearly 4 miles, it— you can race down that thing and people are flying past me. I'm like, nope, nope, my plan, run your race, don't worry about it. And I've seen people that have the worst running form in the world running right by me. I'm like, didn't see it, didn't see it, keep going nice and easy. But again, uh, you having fun with the fans, enjoying the crowds. And wow, what a spectacular crowd. And if anyone— if you're ever running Boston, have something on your shirt. Have your name on your shirt big, you know, have something that identifies you. I, I picked up a singlet that I swore I would wear for every major that I run, and it has the state— it says Oklahoma right across I'm proud of my state. I want to wear that. I can't tell you how many times I heard Oklahoma. It got to the point where I was hearing from both sides of the street. I felt like a rock star. Like, yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. It was absolutely wonderful. And it was, you know, with it being a beautiful day out in Boston, uh, all the crowds were out there. Everyone was out there barbecuing, and you could smell the barbecue. You smell the fresh mulch that they put out there. I mean, it was just, just incredible. You know, the, the atmosphere that was. So that was my first goal, was, was to enjoy. And that went well. Um, knew it was a hot day, so I carried a 16-ounce water bottle with me, and I put electrolytes in there, uh, from Precision Hydration. And that worked well. I sucked on that for an hour. I took that in, made that my hour, and then took in salt pills, uh, every hour after that, 30 minutes on the half hour. And I never had issues with dehydration whatsoever. I know what dehydration is. I've not only have I experienced it, but I know from an educational standpoint what it is, what the signs are, what's going on. And I was happy to say I never had an issue with dehydration. I cooled myself down way early in the race. You know, instead of taking the water to drink, I had my water bottle with me. I'd pour it over my— the back of my neck, down my back., over my head, you know, I would do that, and, uh, it worked very well, uh, very well. Started, uh, feeling a little bit of cramping just after the halfway point, and I knew that was due to, uh, form. I got my form back on track and that went away. It was just due to overuse. I was overusing the, my, one of my left calf. I was just overusing it a little bit, so I corrected that a little bit and it went well. And that I was always able to correct, the one downside was the gels that I chose to use started not agreeing with me. And it'd been not that bad during training, but the long runs, every once in a while I'd be like, oh God, that's kind of unsettling. But, uh, it's okay. It's okay. I got an hour and a half into that race and I took a gel that had caffeine in it. It was working. But, uh, when I was— time for me to take another one, I didn't wanna take it. It. And that lasted with me all— I was able to get up, uh, and get through the Newton Hills. I got over Heartbreak. Everything's going fine. I'm still feeling the stomach a little bit. I'm getting into, uh, the Brookline area. Everything's going well. I, you know, again, I hit those hills and hit them great, and really happy with how I attacked the hills. I didn't give everything into it. I wanted to leave some there and I did. But being able to pass quite a few people on the hills that passed me going down the hill, haha, that was successful. But then getting, getting around mile 23, uh, 24, my stomach rebelled and I just wanted to throw up right then and there. And like, no, no, we gotta keep going, we're not going to do it. And it was like, first my calves had raised their hand, okay, we want to quit. Then my stomach raised his hand, yeah, we're going to quit. And I'm like, no, we're not going to quit. And so, um, despite all that, uh, did I finish as fast as I wanted to? No, but I finished. And I put in everything I did. And I, I literally, those last 2 miles, I stood out there. I knew where we were going. I knew I saw the Sit Go sign, so let's go get it. We, you know, went after it, got to the 1 mile to go and just, okay, let's get to Boston Strong, the bridge that has Boston Strong over it. Got to that. Let's get down the ramp. Let's get up the hill. All right. All right. Left on Herford, right on Boylston. Let's get all the way to the end and powered in, got across the finish line. And I still wanted to puke, but I didn't hold it together and Let's go get the medal.

Oh, wow. Oh, there it is. What a beauty right there. 128th Boston Marathon. That's well deserved after some serious suffering to some extent. That's an interesting one about the gels and the stomach upset because, yeah, typically during training runs, like if something works, like on race day, it it often works as well. But then again, you even had a few hesitations in training, which is an interesting one. Was it more that the flavor didn't work with you? Was it the texture that didn't work for you? Was it the amount you took in?

Really? It was, it was, I think, neither the flavor nor the texture. That was all great. Everything goes down smoothly. It was how it interacted with my stomach and my stomach acids. Like, that's what did it. And the stomach just started rejecting it. And I was taking water in quite a bit too. So, uh, the stomach just— it didn't want that much. And I think that was the, the key, was it did not want that much. And so that's— I think that's what it was. I think it was, uh, just overload, if you will.

What are some of the things you would do differently for your next training cycle or race day?

Have a different gel. But honestly, I don't— other than, other than that, I don't know that I would have done anything differently. During this, uh, training cycle for Boston, I went out and found every single hill I could find, and I went up it, and then I went down it. And I'm fortunate enough here that I can literally walk out my door and here in the Oklahoma City metro area are some of the hilliest terrains in the area. As I can walk right outside my door and I can hit all these hills. And that's what I did. I just tried not to allow myself to find too many flat areas until traffic got to be too much. And then when traffic gets to be too much, you know, I have to get off the streets and I would plan it accordingly. And so my— all my long runs, every one of them, were as many hills as I could find. I finished, um, I wanted to get in a little bit more mileage. Instead of taking 3 weeks to taper, I took 2. Uh, my last long run was 2 weeks before. It was 22 miles. It was every hill I could find. And I feel like that benefited me me greatly for preparing for Boston. I didn't really— I knew that Boston, that, you know, they say part of this relatively flat. Yeah, no, there's flat here in Oklahoma. It was all bumpy. But yes, there are relatively flat, but, um, it was all challenging. But I felt that my training that way was up to it. I felt my nutrition was, was pretty good leading up to it. I could have done maybe a little bit better nutritionally in the everyday nutrition. Other than that, you know, and speed work, I thought I did fairly well. I held back in speed work, you know, I learned my lesson from Chicago, uh, and I allowed my feet to do what they could do, you know. So I just ran what I could run, and I think that ended up being very successful for me.

Excellent, great takeaways right there. The hill training Even before I ran Boston, which is 2015, it's been quite a while, quite a few years back, but training like a significant amount of hills before that and becoming familiar, what is it like to run indeed, not only uphill, but even downhill and holding back on the uphill, letting yourself go and be comfortable to run faster downhill, leaning forward a bit more and really letting like the, the downwards momentum. It takes practice, yet when you run quite a few hills and you're so familiar with it, all of a sudden Heartbreak Hill does not feel that intimidating anymore.

That was the fun part about it, is being able to chug up Heartbreak Hill and being able to pass people and like, come on, guys, you were speeding down this other hill at the beginning. Let's go. Why are you walking now?

Uh-huh. Right.

I got you. Yeah. Point of, of training downhill. You need to train downhill if you want to run Boston. You better know how to run downhill, and there's an art to it, and you've got to learn it. And one of the best ways to learn it is to first attempt it and then, you know, set yourself up. For me, it was always maintaining that spine angle, you know, maintain— not allowing yourself to lean forward, but maintaining that spine angle, holding that core strong, and that would get you down the the best.

And I think even the part of being able to run relaxed down the hill, like it almost becomes like when it's a steep technical trail, I almost see it as like dancing down the trail where obviously on a road race it's a little bit different. But once you tense up, that costs you a lot of energy. And once you can run relaxed, it's the same with— I grew up skateboarding and snowboarding and surfing.

Skating.

When I would be tense and tight skateboarding, I would be nervous and I would fall and break things. Once I would like run tight, it doesn't work. Like, learn to run relaxed on the downhill. Like, that is one big one when you're running any of these races with some elevation profile, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Spot on. Let's talk for a little bit about recovery and also about aging and longevity and running. Like, what What are some of the recovery techniques that you use in your training? Do you use any sort of tools? Share some of your thoughts about strength, mobility. Curious to hear a bit more there from you.

I learned a lot again training for Chicago of how to properly recover, and, uh, that changed my mindset a little bit. Uh, the first and foremost, the tool that I use the most are, uh, my NormaTec Legs compression sleeves are phenomenal and I missed them from being in Boston. I'm, I'm home now and I'm ready to put them on and just enjoy the compression of them. I think they helped me quite a bit. But mobility-wise, I think it's so important, especially as you age, to continue to stay mobile and always working on mobility, always working on the joints because our joints tend to become less pliable as we age. But getting on the ground, whether it be a yoga practice, whether it be just mobility that you've learned, mobility that Coach Ben has put in the Personal Best program, those are wonderful tools to have to be able to stay mobile and to stay active. And then also, I think the best part of recovery for me is to understand when you pushed it too hard.. And when you've gone too much, if you need that much recovery, then you might be needing to back it off just a little bit. Because if you start pushing yourself too hard, it's going to be harder to recover as you age, as you get older. So that's, that's a huge part. Having the right nutrition, it plays such a huge role in being able to recover. Because let's face it, you put bad gas in a car, you're not going to get good results. So if you put bagged food in you, you're not going to have the recovery that you need. You need the proper nutrition in order to recover. And stay hydrated. You know, I can't speak enough to having the right electrolytes in you. That helps huge. I mean, that's the— probably one of the biggest things I see in, uh, my older clients is they are not hydrated properly. They stop thinking they need to drink. You gotta drink, you gotta have it. And every time I convince them to do it and they do it, wow, I feel better. I mean, we're talking 70, 80-year-olds as well as that. And it's like, yeah, because you're dehydrated. So that's a huge role, huge important factor in staying, uh, in recovery.

Those are good ones for sure. Let's talk talking about aging and longevity a little bit more, what advice would you give to athletes who are trying to maintain or improve their fitness in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond?

I take this again from the Lifespan book. When you create an environment in your body that it can take care of itself, you're actually going to have a healthier life. So the 4 takeaways that I, that I take from that is the body needs to have some type of intermittent fasting most all the time. It responds— the body is an amazing organism in that it responds well to being in discomfort. So when you make it uncomfortable, it adapts, and it actually thrives more in discomfort than it does in comfort. And here we are, society, we're striving to find comfort. And I think we need to actually have a different mindset. We need to look at, okay, do we really need to be that comfortable? And when we put a little discomfort in front of us, whether it be training, running, whatever, food intake, whatever, we adapt. Our bodies adapt. So intermittent fasting, let it adapt. It doesn't need all the food we think it needs. That's one thing. Exposure to cold, whether it be running outside in the cold weather with a little few layers on than you normally do, whether it be just getting outside, whether it be taking a cold plunge, whether it be a cold shower, it needs that exposure to cold. It really benefits the release of certain enzymes to have that cold exposure. Uh, the next is proper sleep. You've got to have the proper sleep. You got to have the rest. There's so many studies coming out now that understand that the better our sleep is, the more we heal ourselves and the better and the less we age. So sleep is such an important factor, and especially in dealing with stress. Then finally, a little bit of caloric restriction. We don't need to eat those huge plates when we go out to dinner. You know, we can, we can suck those down. Giving your body, you know, eating to where you're not always full. That's, that's a good thing. And we end up thriving better when we do it. And it's so easy, especially in the winter months, to eat more because, you know, part of it is our body thinks, well, it's cold, we're not going to get as much food because we can't get out and hunt and gather it, where now we can just press on a button and have it delivered to our house. So we have to maintain that caloric restriction in order for us actually benefit the way our bodies can heal itself.

Yeah, there's a variety of developed ways of— or there's a variety of different ways we can go about this. I think to add to those, strength training on a consistent basis as we are aging is a big one. The mobility part, it doesn't have to be long either. Even if it's a few minutes here and there, even when you're doing the dishes, you're still like— I'm right now behind the standing desk and I can already do like toe raises and other things and you're not even seeing it. So I think that there's a variety of different ways we can add strength and mobility on a consistent basis. The calorie one is an interesting one because I think indeed we're, as a society, so wired. When I grew up in Europe or in Amsterdam, at least we were like breakfast, lunch, dinner, and maybe an apple in between. And now, like, living here in America, I just feel like it's such a snack society where every 30 minutes or every hour people snacking, like, nonstop. And I think that the calorie restriction one, it is a fine line because I think there's a time and place for, like, not always relying, like, so heavily on shoving more food in our face. Yet at the other hand, I think endurance athletes sometimes make the mistake of underfueling too, where that can play a significant role on the recovery process again too. So it's this fine line with being conscious about it.. But at the other hand, I see plenty of athletes actually waking up in the middle of the night. And then when we dive further into it, it's actually like, ah, only taking 1,800 calories while I'm running like 13 miles average per day kind of thing. And so it's like, hey, you're underfueling big time and let's take a look at what we can optimize there. You know what I mean?

So it's a fine line there. Absolutely. Absolutely is. And you're right. And I think that's where it's based individually. You know, when we talk about calorie restriction, we, we have to base it individually. We don't, we don't base it on a certain number or a certain website that says, okay, you only need to eat this. And when we talk about intermittent fasting, you know, we can, we can base it on some studies and some research, but again, it's so individualized and so needing to be experimented with by each individual to find what works for you and what, what is best for you. And I think when you put the foods in, I think the calorie restriction actually ends up being even more beneficial because you're probably not near as hungry when you're getting your body the foods that it really needs to fuel itself.

Yeah, totally. I think nutrition is always a tricky topic because there's just so many different viewpoints on it and, and they're sometimes complete polar opposite too, where like You, you— there are different ways to get to your goal. It's also what works for you, what, what is in line with your ethics and values, and, and what do you feel right about. And I think sometimes there's different goals too. The one might be to optimize your health and longevity, and your other one might be to optimize your performance, and they might not always be the same, right? Is marathon running the healthiest way of aging?

No, probably it's No, probably like— I'll protest to that.

I don't like it too much. But at the other hand, I do think people who train for a marathon, they're getting out there consistent, they're part of community. So generally speaking, they're still much healthier than some people who are not working out. Yeah, absolutely. What do you have coming up next?

Do you have any future races, training or racing goals here for The next race is, uh, one that I raised my hand to, and I'm like, why did I do this? But I did. Uh, I had a friend of mine that she, uh, was going to run the half marathon here in a couple weeks, and here locally in our marathon. And I said, if I get into Boston, I'll pace you on the half marathon. And, uh, I got into Boston, and I'm pacing her in the half marathon. So hopefully the legs will do well. I think it's going to be just a nice long run. We're going to have a great time. And, and enjoy ourselves and enjoy the crowds. It'll be— hopefully it'll be a beautiful day. And then from there, I've got one more, uh, race in Tulsa, Oklahoma for a marathon in November. And, uh, you know, who knows from there. Uh, you know, the ultimate goal, uh, is to always try and strive for the 6-star. We'll see, we'll see how it goes. We'll see how things go out and plan out. It's a lifelong goal, so there's no pressure go immediately. You know, it's, it's something that's there and just want to enjoy. You know, there's, there's a few bucket list marathons. Marine Corps would be one of them in DC, and maybe even LA. Of course, I need to be paced if I go to LA by somebody out there that knows the course.

Keep it— keep me posted on that one. That will be, uh, that'll be a fun one with a few hills in the mix as well. So for sure, I have one more important question in closing here, but before we do, where can people find more about you?

Uh, on Strava, Scott Frye on Strava, and on Instagram, uh, Run the Number 4 Fryes, F-R-Y-E-S, is on Instagram. And that's where I post a lot of the running content, uh, especially with, uh, the marathons. I try to do a race recap I'm in the middle of getting ready to put out the Boston race recap. I usually go, oh, you know, 6, 7, 8 different parts, once at one a day, just to kind of give pictures behind the scenes and what it felt like as it goes a lot more in depth there.

So those two areas, you can find me there, and I will make sure to link to that in the show notes as well. There's quite a few different listeners here looking to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete. Do you have any closing thoughts, any clothing advice advice that you want to share with the listeners here?

Yeah, like we've talked before, uh, give yourself a lot of grace. Don't, uh, don't expect it to come immediately. This is worth working for. This is worth enduring. So it's going to take time. It's going to take a lot of patience on your part. It is so worth it. Go through the discouragement. Go through the hard times. Anything that's worthwhile well, it's worth going through hard times for. And this is, you know, to have your health, to have a longer lifespan that you can enjoy friends, that you enjoy family, and you enjoy life in general and explore life. It's worth it. So go through the hard struggles to get there and then enjoy the benefits that you've reaped, because you will have gone through some things. And at first it's going to be mental. It's not going to be physical. It's going to be I tell you what, once you get on the other side of that mental struggle, it opens up a whole new world and you just want to keep exploring it.

Spot on. Scott, honestly, thank you very much for all of your positive vibes that you have shared, not just on this call, but in many of the recent Zoom calls and in the PB community. Like, you're really a wealth of knowledge. And on a weekly basis, like, you're one of the community managers there and you're sharing a lot of different insights and a lot of positive feedback.

So thank you very much for all your help there. Well, it's an absolute pleasure for me. I completely enjoy it. I love the community. It's a wonderful community. And it's so wonderful to see that we have runners of all different levels in that community, and not a single one of them is treated any differently than another. Everyone is encouraging, everyone is behind each other, and it's just wonderful to be a part of just a fabulous community.

Absolutely. Well, I look forward to going for a run with you next time in person. And when you come to LA or I come to Oklahoma, let's definitely connect, or otherwise at one of the world majors.

So it sounds good to me.

I'll take you up All right, sounds good. Have a good one, Scott. Thank you. Thanks. Bye. Thank you for listening. If you're looking for any heart rate-specific training plans for your 5K, 10K, half marathon, marathon, or ultra distance, check out pbprogram.com. This is our running coaching program that I'm personally active in on a daily basis, and other PB coaches such as Scott are active in there on a daily basis as well. This is for runners of all levels looking to improve and wanting some additional guidance. I'm curious to hear from you, what was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this episode? Please let me know in the comments below on YouTube. The next episode that I'm going to release is with Eliud Kipchoge. Still going through the editing phase over here, but that episode should be dropping soon as well, so stay tuned for that. Have fun out there on your runs. Bye now.

Mm.