#88: Courtney Dauwalter's Advice to Improve Your Running

Let's try this road marathon. Let's see if I can survive. But I was like really scared. I didn't think I could finish it. I stood at that start line amongst the masses of people and, you know, saying my goodbyes to everyone I loved about, like— but then I made it and I couldn't believe it. And it was hard and my legs hurt and my feet hurt. But I thought it was a really cool experience.

Courtney Dauwalter is the greatest ultra runner of all time.

My training is day to day. So deciding how I feel to guide how hard I push the gas pedal down. So every morning I'll just check in with all of my systems, like obviously my legs and my feet and my body, but also, you know, where's my head at? Where are my emotions at? Where's my stress at? Like, how's just everything feeling? And then help that kind of guide what I do for the training that day.

In 2023, Courtney won 3 of the most iconic ultra running races in a span of 9 weeks, starting with a course record at Western State, another record-breaking performance at Hardrock, and a few weeks later winning the UTMB 100-mile race.

We've got to figure out what works with how we tick, like, you know, how our brains work and how we make sure to like be going after the thing we want to be going after every day. But also not to overdo it or to have the discipline to like take a full rest day if you need it.

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Thank you. Thanks for coming to Colorado.

Yeah, what a beautiful place you live. We're over here in Leadville, your hometown. Almost like, what is this, 9,000-foot elevation?

Yeah, about 10,000. And you came at the perfect time. The leaves are perfect. The mountains are showing off. It's Great time to be here.

That was one of the best drives coming from Denver, going through the mountains, seeing all of the trees changing color. That was really nice. So is this your background? Is this where you train?

Yeah, this is where we live full time. So I'm out in these mountains as much as possible. I feel very lucky.

Yeah, I can only imagine. So you live at altitude, you train at altitude. And then you race at altitude as well then?

A lot of times I'm racing at altitude, but, uh, we really just fell in love with the town and the place and the pace of life. So it had nothing to do with the altitude and everything to do with just like that small town mountain vibe where everyone waves at each other, like a full arm wave, you know, not just like a little hand like flap. It's like full arm waves. People wanna know how you're doing. And then just this huge outdoor place. Playground where every direction is endless opportunities.

And even now I've seen a bunch of snowy peaks everywhere. You can run in every different direction.

Yeah, really every direction. It's so cool.

That, that's awesome. So we have a lot of listeners on the podcast that are recreational runners. Some are road runners, some are trail runners, some do a combination of both. I'd love to kind of start by the topic of your first road marathon, because we'll dive into ultra running in a little bit. But what was your first road marathon like? Can you tell me a little bit more about what was going through your mind, some of your expectations for the day of, and how did things actually unfold?

To set the stage a little bit for that, I grew up running, so I grew up doing cross-country and track all through high school and then through college. Just found that I loved running as a way to get outside and enjoy the weather, but Also, it made me feel really good to start a day that way. So that carried over into, you know, post-college life when I was getting up to go run before going to work. So running was a part of my everyday life already. But then I was hearing about a lot of people signing up for road marathons. And to me, 26.2 miles seemed impossible. I couldn't imagine how they could make it so far with just their feet. But it made me want to try and see if I could be a person who could make it so far with my feet. I had never run that far. Probably my longest run before deciding to do that was like, I don't know, maybe like 15 miles. And then I was like, let's try this road marathon. Let's see if I can survive. So I signed up for the Twin Cities Marathon, which is in Minnesota. It's absolutely beautiful, held in October, which is fall there. So a good time for Minneapolis. But I was like really scared. I didn't think I could finish it. I stood at that start line amongst the masses of people and basically was like, you know, saying my goodbyes to everyone I loved about, like, or to everyone I loved, like, It was a good run we had, but this is it. I'm going to be a pile of skin on the side of the road. Yeah. But then I made it and I couldn't believe it. And it was hard and my legs hurt and my feet hurt. But there was just so much forward momentum in it that I thought it was a really cool experience.

Isn't it fascinating when we do something we have never done before, we go further than we have ever done something, or we go harder than we have ever gone? Like, some of the scary thoughts that come into mind just for the unknown, right? It's very often it is the unknown that brings some of that fear to us.

Totally. Yeah. Not even being able to imagine what it will be like is a scary feeling.

And then you went on to run your first 50K. From first 50K, first 50-mile, then first 100-mile. What were some of the mistakes, some of the failures, some of the lessons from those early ultras for you?

Oh man, I made so many mistakes. Um, and still do. But after that road marathon, the domino got pushed over for me of like, you thought you couldn't do that and then you did. So what else is out there that you might think sounds impossible and we could just try? And it led me to the ultra running world, which I had no idea this world existed. I didn't know people ran races that were 100+ miles. Um, so when I stumbled into that world, it just was like, I don't know, opened up a whole new thing for me of like, I gotta start trying these to see. So I jumped into a 50K, I did that 50-mile race, and then my next one after that was a 100-mile race. And my mistakes were like definitely more abundant than anything I did Correct.

Tell me more. Tell me a few examples. I want to hear.

Well, it was basically everything, but, um, training-wise, I didn't think to like start going on the trails more. The races I was signing up for, these ultras, were on trails, but I lived in the city, and so I just ran the city blocks still and did my normal running and then hoped it translated onto trails. It's all running and it like, it does translate, but it's a little different because trails, you have to just learn to move with the terrain a little differently and pick up your feet and pay a little more attention than like a cruiser smooth street. And so in those first years, I fell a lot. My knees and my hands and elbows were just always covered in scabs. The other piece That would probably be like a highlight of my mistakes is, um, just trying to figure out the nutrition part. I didn't grow up in sports where you eat while you work, you know? And so it was kind of this foreign concept to like figure out how to keep fuel coming in while I was exerting myself for so many hours. And that was a really long multi-year mistake. Riddled process of like, what works for me? What are the options? And then how do I like start to practice actually doing it? Practicing eating sounds weird, but it actually requires like some training to get used to it.

Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Well, and that's the thing, like with shorter races, like a half marathon, you can get away without taking in any or, or that many calories. A marathon. Starts to play a more important role. But then the longer these distances get, the more you can fill on the topic of nutrition, right?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And there's like so many options and you can talk to a million different people and you'll hear a million different versions of what they do. And you really do need to just try yourself and see what works for you because we're all individual in like the thing that burns best in our fuel tank.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then if you end up going into an ultra, like a 50-miler or 100-miler, and you have actually done quite a bit of the training on the road, how did some of those first races go for you? Was it like kind of a similar thing as the marathon? You were at the starting line and you were like, there's the race nerves, there's the excitement, and you were just learning a lot of things along the way. How did that unfold?

Yeah, I mean, for sure, standing on those start lines, it was, um, big unknown on if I could be a person who finishes this new distance, but I knew I wanted to try and see because why not? Um, and then they were always trails and often in the mountains. And so I would just be worked afterwards, like so beat up from the terrain that I wasn't properly training on. Um, like my feet, my quads, everything. I probably would fall multiple times during the race, um, and like, yeah, but it was, it was really cool to learn that I wanted to keep exploring it, you know, because I tried a few and survived them, and then it could have been like, check, check, you know, like, okay, what else is out there, you know, badminton, I don't know, but like Oh, I love this sport and I love this community and I want to keep exploring what's out there.

Yeah, it's that curiosity with joy. Yeah, there's so much to that. So there's quite a few people that have experience in road running that are sometimes a bit intimidated by trail running or even by ultra running. Do you have any advice for people wanting to start trail running but don't really know how to go about it or doing their first ultra marathon?

Yeah, I think just go to a local trail and don't have any expectations of like a pace or a distance. Just go. Like maybe even those first times, leave your watch at home because I know a lot of times with road running especially, we can get really locked in on like what pace we're supposed to be running or what we should be doing. If it's your first time getting on the trails, just like go with it and see how it feels and like kind of just move with your body and be as present as you can in the nature that you get to be in, you know, um, and start small. Like there's no reason to like choose a multi-hour loop as your first thing. Like choose something tiny that, um, you can just get a feel for it and see if you even like it.

Totally. I even think the whole part of becoming familiar with the trails, even if that means going out on a hike. And then some of the sections you just end up going for a gradual jog. So many marathon runners or so many road runners are used to gotta run 9-minute miles and they just get their ass handed to them on the first hill they're going up. And so even just going out and focusing on time on feet can make quite a bit of a difference there.

Yeah. Or like going with a friend and just making it an adventure, bring snacks, like plan to be out there for a little exploring. But for sure, like people ask me my pace all the time. What pace do you run on trails? And I'm like, I don't know. It varies so wildly from the type of terrain it's on that I don't look at it ever. You know, I'm going up a mountain or I'm going flat or downhill. It's like the pace will be what it is with the terrain. Like, you just roll with the terrain.

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny you mentioned the snacks because I have two daughters, 8 and 11, and one of the main ways for me to get them on the trails is like promising that we have a bunch of good snacks. And so, yeah, that's one way.

Yeah, it works with 8-year-olds, 11-year-olds, and everybody else.

In particular, you. I've heard some nutrition stories that you're definitely into. What is it? Jelly beans, nachos? Yeah, that's some awesome food.

Pretty much everything kids like. Good. Good.

Well, fair enough. That does bring a lot of joy too. So Good. So you end up gaining more experience into ultra running. Eventually you end up winning some of your races and things start to improve. Like you learn more, you train more, and eventually you end up quitting your job as full-time science teacher to become a full-time runner. How was that for you to make that decision?

Kind of scary. Yeah, I mean, it was just taking a leap into it without any guarantees of what would happen at the other side of that leap. But it was just a lot of conversations between my husband Kevin and I on life and, you know, what we want out of it. And thinking a lot of the perspective of like when we're 90 years old and reflecting back on life, what do we hope will know was true about the life that we lived together. And it was all those conversations where like, one thing we for sure wanna do is like squeeze as much joy out of living as possible. And we don't wanna wonder what if. And so in this case it was like, what if I go all in on running and just see? It was a hobby for me at that point. Like I didn't, it wasn't a job. I didn't have any income from it. It was just like, What if I go all in on this hobby and we see? And Kevin, please keep working to keep the lights on for a few months while we learn if we like this. But it was like, let's take this like side road and just see what happens over here because we can always come back to the main road. You know, like you can always get a job again. So I was like, let's take this jump here and just find out. But it felt scary. I mean, we didn't know. And I also felt pretty pretty nervous about like, will it ruin running for me? Because I loved running so much and I didn't want it to suddenly change in my mind or in my life, like the space that running held. But luckily it didn't change it at all.

Well, probably one of the things that might have changed is that you used to have a full-time job, or you had— I'm not sure if it was full-time or part-time, but you had a teaching job. And you would be doing your runs in the morning or later after work, and all of a sudden you didn't have to go into a school to teach and you had some more time available during the day probably to train, right?

Yeah, absolutely. That was a huge change. I mean, before that, like any person who has a job knows, like, you get it in when you can, or any commitments, you know, like a family or a million things to juggle, you get in the things that are important to you when you can. And so it was a lot of like 4:00 AM alarm clocks. It was a lot of after work, like trying to get my legs to move for me after a full day. So yeah, that was a huge change in like the structure of life.

Yeah. I can also imagine that you almost have to be cautious not to overdo it as soon as you have more time available because you have more time to train, but you can also push the envelope too hard, right?

Yeah. Yeah, there were a lot of things that we were like, well, we'll find out. And that felt exciting and scary and worth doing, I think.

Yeah. So there's a variety of different ways that you can train. And I do want to talk about your training for a little bit, as in there's some people who have a training plan, they follow it very strict, and they follow every workout, whether they're feeling 100% or whether they have to push through. And then there's the other side of the spectrum where it's more of a day-to-day adjustment to based on how you feel. How has your training been over the years and how has, has anything like that changed over the years?

My, uh, training is day-to-day. So deciding how I feel to guide how hard I push the gas pedal down. And that's how it's been ever since I graduated college. Like ever since I stopped having coaches for the sports in school. Um, I haven't had a coach, but I grew up with great coaches and did have that structure and did, you know, see what a plan can look like and does look like to, um, you know, shape around a race season. But I really love being able to like really check in with myself every day and not force things when my body is giving me signs. That it needs something different than what maybe I was thinking I was gonna do. So every morning I'll just check in with all of my systems, like obviously my legs and my feet and my body, but also, you know, where's my head at? Where are my emotions at? Where's my stress at? Like, how's just everything feeling? And then help that kind of guide what I do for the training that day.

It is so different how everyone's approach, like, One person approaches this like this, very on the day-to-day, and other people are much more regimented about it. And what works for one person might not work for the other person.

I love that though.

Like, that is the beauty of it.

It's so cool. Like, so many methods to the madness. And I love talking to people and hearing, you know, what does your week look like? What's your structure look like? And just kind of like, you know, spitballing with people to see what works for everyone. But for sure, it, it's an individual thing, just like nutrition, where we've gotta figure out what works with how we tick, like, you know, how our brains work and, um, how we make sure to like be going after the thing we wanna be going after every day, but also not to overdo it or to have the discipline to like take a full rest day if you need it.

Yeah. And that check-in, I want to talk through that a little bit more because sometimes I do it myself when I get out of bed. And the first thing I do when I wake up, I just ask myself is, how am I really feeling? Am I happy? Am I sad? How are my energy levels? But even when I first step out of bed, do I have sensitive feet? Like sometimes if you're close, pushing it with training volume or training load, sometimes the feet are quite sensitive, or at least for me. It's like, okay, I might want to dial it back a little bit. Is it literally that you do this more in your head, or do you write it down, or do you look at certain data of your resting heart rate? How do you go about this?

It's very informal. It has no data involved with it, and it is just done like casually by myself and to myself while I'm drinking coffee. But there's no like real system to it. It's just like allowing any feelings that are there to like say they're there, you know. So it's just trying to notice, I guess, which, um, a lot of times we, you know, hit the ground and just have to, you know, get going a thousand miles an hour right away. And so we don't have the time to like notice things. And this way it's just like a few minutes of like paused sipping coffee and noticing, and that's all it is.

Just being present and just being aware of what's happening.

Yeah. And I think our bodies tell us a lot, like if, if we can tune in and listen, which is the hard part. Um, but the, there's a lot of signals coming at us all the time.

Yeah. As long as we're open indeed to listening to their signals. And that is in daily life. That's also in training and in racing too.

Yeah.

When let's say you have one of your training weeks, and it might be like 100 miles. Like I've heard you say on a few different conversations, like sometimes you push the training volume, sometimes it's a bit higher, sometimes it's a bit lower. Obviously here we're at altitude, there's elevation, there's hills in the mix. Every run is different, but how much of that is at a relative low intensity and how much of that is at like a pushing it pretty hard high intensity?

Most of it's at low intensity. Most of it's like cruiser adventure, time on feet, uh, yeah, getting in the hours, um, and then a few times a week maybe throwing in some intensity.

And even those intensities, you probably go on a day-to-day with those as well, right?

100%. Yeah, I won't have a plan at the start of the week of when that might happen. Um, sometimes even when I leave my house, I won't know if it's gonna happen. Like, I'll end up running a route that brings me to a hill that I really like doing repeats on, and then I find myself just doing a few of them, you know, and then suddenly it becomes, oh, like more of a workout as opposed to like an adventure explorer cruiser. Yeah. And then I just kind of roll with that when it does occur.

Yeah. Last year at Hardrock, I sat down with Killian and we were talking about different ways to train. And sometimes he said that he's not necessarily training for gaining more fitness. Sometimes he's training for what is it like to run when you're tired. So he might run overnight. Sometimes he might run with lower blood oxygen level or like training for altitude adaptations or sometimes for the heat. Or do you sometimes purposely train some of these other systems or is it more go with the flow?

I mean, Kilian is amazing and he is way more of like a regimented scientist with his systems and what he's testing on himself. It's really cool and I'm thankful for him like pushing so many limits in so many ways. I'd say mine is just more like scattered. Maybe I'll play around with like, I mean, for sure I'll play around with nutrition stuff sometimes, or maybe I'll play around with like volume. Can I go any higher than this? What does it feel like in those weeks after if I like go to a mileage I haven't done? Um, or maybe climbing would be a focus or something, but I don't do like overnight runs or, yeah, I don't like, yeah, not eat for 2 days and then run.

I don't know. We'll leave the overnighters for race day.

Yeah. Yeah. Some of that is like the novelty and like having it happen on race day is fun.

Yeah, I do have to ask you this one though. Like, what is the most unusual thing you've tried in training that gave you surprisingly result?

Oh, I don't know if I have something. I don't think I have something.

Really?

Nothing unusual. I think I'm doing very normal things.

Good. No, like, I know just some of these stories of, like, once again, Kilian going out for, like, let's see how many days I cannot eat and keep training until I drop. And so yeah, I figured you might have some experiment.

No, I should up my experiment game.

How many jelly beans can you eat on a long run?

These are the questions I want to know.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah, as I was telling you, this altitude is no joke for you. For you, it's easy. For me, as I was lifting the couch earlier, I lost a lung just from being at 10,000 elevation. And it's a whole nother it's a whole nother, and it's not easy.

Like it's, altitude is hard for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. When we come back from traveling or going to the Midwest visiting family or something, we always feel it really hard when we come back to Leadville. Like the first runs we're like, whoa, have we like not been running for months? What is this?

I can only imagine though, when you go from altitude and you're racing low at sea level, it's gonna be such a benefit.

I'd never noticed.

Really?

Yeah. People are like, do you feel like super strength when you go down in altitude? I'm like, no, I just feel normal. And then when I come back, I feel terrible.

There you go. It's good just to persevere.

But if you're like running off effort then, and I'm not looking at pace ever, then effort is effort. So then it sort of makes sense that I wouldn't notice it when I'm down low.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. So one thing that I've noticed when looking at some of your race history is you used to race a lot, as in like almost like an ultra every month almost. And then you started changing the cadence a bit more. Yet you're still pushing it hard several times a year, but you seem to have changed the cadence a bit. Can you talk me through some of the thought process there?

I, it was a good learning process for me when I, um, was getting into the sport. I just wanted everything as much as possible. And there's so many options out there, so many races. And so I was like trying to get one in a month and, um, get to as many races as I could. But I had some great people around me. Like Salomon is one of my main sponsors and some of the athletes on the Salomon team. Who were just like good role models, but also would like vocally recommend like, you need to take care of your body more if you're going to ask it to do so much. You can't keep at this pace of racing. And like, you might find actually that you would like a big chunk of training altogether, you know? And so that was really helpful for me to open my eyes to like, doesn't have to be all racing all the time. It can be settling into a nice training groove and treating your body nice so that when you do choose a race and go to it, you can like really push hard during it.

Yeah. Well, and then sometimes still you end up picking races with UTMB, Hardrock, Western States, where there's only so much time in between some of those races to recover too, right? Like sometimes you're only, uh, literally like a few weeks time in between.

Yeah. Yeah. That was just like a fun new element to the challenge of doing these races was to put 'em all together and see, see what that could look like.

And the wheel stayed on.

No, barely. They barely stayed on, but thankfully they did stay on.

So, so talk, talk to me for a little bit, like when you go through in between some of these races, because we have sometimes people run multiple marathons in a short period of time, but also running multiple ultras in a relatively short period of time, how do you approach the recovery in between? Is there anything in particular that you focus on there?

I mean, if I'm doing daily check-ins with myself already, in those recovery periods, those check-ins are just like heightened, like really tuning into what are— how are you feeling, you know, mentally, physically, emotionally, but then even things like what are you craving? Like what foods are you wanting right now, because that's probably your body saying, you know, I need this thing. Um, and then it's like really being patient with the comeback to running. So I, in between some of those races, spent some days, you know, fully on the couch and then some days going for walks just around the neighborhood to move, to get some air, to like get the blood flowing a little bit. Went for some, you know, little bike rides around the neighborhood and was just like really patient with making it into a running motion and not forcing it.

Yeah. What about sleep? How much do you sleep per night?

Uh, roughly 8 hours. Say a normal amount of sleep.

Yeah. There you go. Does it, does that ebb and flow throughout a training cycle too for you or is it?

Uh, no, it's pretty consistent. Yeah. And I'm not a napper, so no matter how much training I'm doing, I I just don't take a nap ever. It's like 8 hours a night is good and then I'm ready to go.

Yeah. Have you noticed that when you're in your 20s, you can get away with a whole lot more versus when you start to get into your mid to late 30s?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Because I surely do. And I'm 42. Yeah.

I, um, learned that. I mean, I've been learning that over the years, but for sure I got injured during a race in, um, 2019. And before that race, when that injury happened, I was like a, you know, dunk some coffee, throw your shoes on, out the door, and you're running within like 10 minutes of waking up if you want kind of person. I never did any body work. I never did any strength work. I never foam rolled. And then that injury happened and I, um, had this amazing physical therapy team who was helping me, you know, get back to running again. And they were like, you gotta do some maintenance. Like you can't keep on asking so much without any give back. And so they taught me this whole like maintenance routine basically of activation and strength exercises for like just kind of the major muscle groups that now, I mean, we're like 5 years later, I'm still doing that routine. I hope they hear this. I'm still doing that routine.

It was well worth it.

Yeah. And it was very much a thing of like when I was younger it was fine and I could get away with it, or I could get away with, you know, racing so much. But then as you get a little older, it's like, Oh no, we gotta like give a little help here to all of the systems.

Yeah. Yeah. And I've, I've noticed the same thing. It's at the beginning when you have X amount of time to train, especially from recreational athletes who have a lot of other things going on outside of training. It's like, all right, I have 8 hours to train, so I'm gonna run for 8 hours versus like, maybe I should just take an hour and spend time on mobility and maybe that means running for 7 hours. Yeah. Some mobility, some strength training, just a few of these.

Yeah. Or if like you only have 40 minutes for a run now with those 40 minutes, I would squeeze in at least like I would make 8 of the minutes just some basic activation exercises and, uh, like basic body weight strength stuff. Like it doesn't even require equipment. It's like you can do it standing at your kitchen sink, you know, filling up your water bottle, you can be like doing some squats or whatever, and it's so helpful.

Totally. Is there any activation work in particular that you find helpful?

Mine is really focused on like my glutes and my hips for activation, and then, um, my strength is like working leg stuff and core mostly.

I You probably thought I did arm work, but I was going to say, what about those deadlifts and squats? Yeah.

No, maybe in the future I'll add in some arms.

You're totally Ryan Hall next time I see you. Oh my God. There we go. I will have to ask you, have you heard of the Flow Rope?

It's some strength workout.

It's actually like you were talking about activating your glutes, your hips. So my good friend Laurens van Lingen, who works with several elite athletes as well, he has talked a lot about posterior chain activation, including like a lot of athletes overuse the hamstrings, overuse their quads, and don't use their glutes enough. And one of the one of the approaches to kind of help activate that was like a flow rope where you literally have a rope and you learn to swing it backwards. Oh, and like you do this in a particular pattern and you learn how to rotate your shoulders. And then there's a combination with some backwards walking, some, some mobility work, some tire pulling. Quite a few athletes have found helpful. Yeah, I had him on the podcast a few months ago and we spoke about this and it was interesting to hear quite a few people trying to experiment with it and noticing like, oh, all of a sudden my glutes are firing and like, oh, I'm not using my hamstrings that much anymore.

Oh, cool. I'll have to look into it.

Yeah, that's been an eye-opener for me in recent months as well.

Yeah, I think glutes are like the main problem for runners always. So if you can figure out ways to make those fire, then the chain stays much happier.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk for a little bit about in ultras. At some point there's going to be some discomfort. In marathons there is, in half marathons there is. But in particular, like at the later stages, or it doesn't even have to be later stages, it can be a freaking mile 5. There's going to be some discomfort. There's going to be. How has your approach to that evolved over the years?

Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, it's all the same no matter the distance you're doing. It's like we all reach that that point eventually, no matter who we are or the distance we're doing, just feels like so impossible and like, how will we keep going? Um, and, uh, for me, I mean, that happens every single race. I get to that point. Um, but I use just visualization and mantras when it gets really tricky. So in those moments when it feels impossible, I'll just start saying something really positive to myself over and over, like a good self-talk mantra. But then I also have started visualizing this pain cave in my brain of like, this is when the work happens. Like, these moments that are difficult and that we're struggling in right now are where we get better. And so I go in that pain cave in my mind and like picture like chiseling away at, you know, that struggle. And like, by being in this hurt right now, I'm making myself better for the next time.

That is fascinating. So you're almost not fearing it, but you're embracing it to some extent.

100%. I used to fear it. So I always have called it the pain cave to me, and I've always imagined it in my brain. But in my first years of ultra running, the pain cave to me was the spot I tried to avoid. Like, don't get to the pain cave, put it off as far as possible. And if you find yourself unfortunately at its entrance, than just survive. Like, do your best to survive it. But I realized that it was just a story I was telling myself about this place that was entirely imaginary. And I was like, I'm in charge of the story, so why don't we just flip the script a little bit and make it something productive and make it like, this is where I want to go because this is where the work happens and this is how I get better for the next time. And just changing the association and the story I told myself about this cave in my brain that I imagined for myself, you know, changed the whole game for me.

What do you tell yourself? What are some of those mantras that work for you?

My go-to that I use often is just, "You're fine, this is fine, everything is fine." And I'll just repeat that over and over. Um, but I've done, you know, like believe or be patient or, um, you know, be strong, whatever. I've also done robot, robot, robot.

That's the shirt. That's the shirt.

Is the shirt for it. Um, none of them are pre-planned. The one that like, if nothing pops into my head that I'll go to is just the you're fine, this is fine. Um, but like the robot one popped in my head at UTMB last summer. And, um, just became my mantra for the last 40 miles. All I said to myself was robot, robot, robot, because it felt so impossible to keep moving forward. I was hurting so bad that I was like, you know how to do this. Like, you've trained for this. You like can do this. So just like go into robot mode for a minute and just like swing your leg. Like, swing your leg and land your foot, and then we'll do it with the other one. You know, like, making it this, like, just really simplified process of, like, do the thing you know how to do, basically. Um, but I think mantras are so valuable. And, like, if we allow our brains to go in a negative space, it can really whirlpool and, like, grow. If we can change the record in our head to something just positive, there's nowhere for that negativity to live. And then we can actually focus on doing the thing we're trying to do. You know, like, do you use mantras?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

Even for myself, like when I get to some of the later stages in a race, just being able to say like, you got this.

Yeah.

Like just the positive loop of that. Or sometimes I actually tell myself, relax. Like just relax because I notice I sometimes tense up. Quite a bit, whether that's the fist that is starting to clench or the shoulders are starting to go up. The moment I can relax, the moment I can run with a bit of an open chest and get some air in there, relax, you often end up like just running easier.

Yeah, relax is a good one.

Yeah, that one, that one I found to be quite helpful. And I think the whole part of like once you start thinking too far ahead, it just becomes troublesome. And so really like just going back to the breath. I think what you're doing on your morning check-ins, I think you can do that on race day as well.

Yeah, for sure. Just be in the step that you're in right now and just do that one as well as you can.

Yeah.

And when it's that simple and small, it's very like digestible no matter how hard it is or, you know, how much it hurts.

Yeah. Do you get to that pain cave in training as well? Do you push yourself that hard in training sometimes, or is this purely a race?

I don't. Yeah, I save the pain cave visits for races.

Fair enough.

Which kind of makes it, um, extra special then to go to them, like to line up for a race and to know I get to go back to this cave that I haven't been to in months and like do some more work in there. That makes it feel like a bonus, like a, a good little treat.

Yeah, no, it, it really is. And I think I sometimes, I've run about probably 50 road marathons and you don't get that often to mile 20 of a marathon, even in training, not like to that point where you're like, all right, I've run the first 20 miles at marathon pace. And now, but during an ultra, it's even more like you don't get like, there's not that many people who get to mile 80 of a 100-mile race that often. And so, yeah, you can only train so much for that. And then you just have to experience it and learn along the way.

Yeah. Yeah. And gather the evidence of like, you know, I went through this and I survived it by doing X, Y, and Z, you know. So now I have that as like this piece of information to take with me to the next challenge I try.

Yeah. When I look at Elliot Kipchoge, he's smiling a lot, even when he's in the pain cave. And I've seen you smile and laugh and goof around quite a bit too, even though I know you're suffering. How are you able to do that?

I think they don't have to be separate. Like you can be working really, really hard and, um, you know, hurting a lot, but you can smile and have fun with it and know that like, one, we chose this, you know, we're choosing running as this thing we get to do. But also two, then how cool is it that I've now put myself into a situation where It's harder than, you know, things I've done before and I get to get better from it. Um, but also when I'm smiling, it's often because there's some people around cheering or some volunteers or, you know, there's some like good interactions happening out on the trails in the mountains or whatever. And like energy, I think, can, you know, pass around. And so feeling that energy and giving it back to the people who are out there is, um, Yeah, it just like boosts everybody to have that for sure. There's like moments when I'm by myself out in the middle of nowhere where I'm not smiling. Like, it is really hard, but I think you can smile when doing those hard things.

It's so well said because I have similar experiences when running a race and there's a kid on the sidelines with a little sign and it's like, high five. It's like, you almost like sometimes as the giver get more out of it than the person like giving the high five. It's like a mutual like energy exchange almost where it lifts each other up.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so good.

Yeah. That's something, something very powerful for that. Knowing what you know now, like you have a tremendous amount of training experience, a tremendous amount of race experience. You've learned things. Things went right. Things also went off the wagon from time to time on a race. You've grown a lot. Is there any advice that you would give your younger self, someone who is now at that starting line of their first marathon, at the starting line of their first 50K?

I'd say buckle up. It's going to be so fun. No, I think I would say, like, just try. Like, the coolest part of this life we get to live is, like, going after things. Like, getting the thing at the end of it is usually not even the highlight at the end of the whole story. You know, it's like choosing the path to go down to go after this hard goal or this thing that sounds impossible. That path is like full of so many adventures. And so just like choose the path and go for it and see what happens.

So well said. So much to talk about. We can take this conversation in so many different directions, but, um, You have chased a tremendous amount of big goals and sometimes you have reached those big goals and sometimes you've been unable to reach it as in failure. Talk to me about your thoughts on failure and setting big goals.

I think failure's part of it and it's part of what makes it cool is you went after this thing, had this whole journey to get to the thing. It didn't work out how you thought it would, but but now you've learned so much and gained so much for the next thing you take on, whether it's trying that again or going in a new direction with it. But yeah, I think failure is just part of the game and it sounds like a really negative term. It even, like, when you say it feels kind of negative. It does, yeah. But it's like, I mean, we all fail at a lot of things all of the time and that's fine. That's just part of it and it's part of us, um, you know, just gathering more information about how to try it the next time.

And we can learn so much from our failures, right?

Yeah, so much. And also, like, it's part of it and it's fine and whatever, like, we all fail. But also I've found that it's important to, like, just feel the bummed feeling afterwards for, like, you know, let it be there for a day or two because you can't can't like just barge past it and be like, well, I failed at this thing, it's fine, it's just life. You know, you gotta like feel a little bummed about it for a second and then, you know, barge past it and like take the lessons to the next thing. Because I think feeling it helps just like— it helps the whole story like come together a little more, you know, in our minds and in our hearts about like this thing that just happened.

It helps you process it all. Yeah. I had a running coach, one of my first running coaches was Coach Jimmy Dean, and he has run many ultras and 100 milers and, and far further. And he said at some point you're, you're not a real runner until you have DNF'd. And I thought that that was a pretty good one to look at it as well. Yeah.

So, yeah. If you haven't DNF'd, if you haven't gotten lost on a course, if you haven't thrown up in a bush, if you, so it's, so it's all part of it really.

So for sure, I think it's quite common for people to compare themselves with other people. And we can also compare ourselves sometimes to our previous version of ourselves. What are your thoughts on comparison?

I don't know. It doesn't usually feel helpful. We're all doing our own thing, you know, and like doing the best we can with what we've got going on. So comparing isn't often productive. Do you think?

No, I don't. Like, that's kind of the interesting part. Like, I think it's very easy to look at, ah, this person is able to put in X amount of miles per week and I'm not, but my situation is different than this other person, or this person is able to accomplish this or this race time. But I think the moment we can start letting go of all of that and we can start focusing on us doing the best we can in our situation, It is a very liberating feeling, really.

Yeah. So, yeah, no need.

No need. No need. You have quite a support system around you of very legitimate sponsors. In what sort of way do they provide you with support?

Some amazing companies. Salomon's my main sponsor. They do, you know, head-to-toe gear and shoes and packs and Almost all of it. And then, um, the feed is where I get a lot of my nutrition. They also have Tailwind and Kodiak who I work with for more food things. Um, and then there's like, you know, SunGod Sunglasses and Jinji, our toe socks. Those help me stay blister-free. That was like a really fun find that I had back in like 2017. Trying those out for the first time was like, I was like, whoa, you don't have to get blisters on your feet? This is cool.

Tell me more. So those are individualized toe socks, correct?

Yeah. Each toe gets its own little garage.

Garage. I love the wording of that.

Yeah. And then I wear a Suunto watch and use Lucky Poles. So in trail running, In the mountains, we use poles a lot to help us. Um, or like my headlamp that I use is Petzl. Yep. And then I use, uh, Squirrel's Nut Butter, which is huge in like helping just anti-chafe, anti-blister.

That's a big one, especially in the trail and ultra long distance.

Yeah. I mean, all running really can, everyone can use a little help there.

Yeah. I think the headlamp is one of the most underutilized tools by some people where they go cheap on the headlamp. I'm like, no, you want to invest in that. You want to be able to see, like, the ground. And like you were saying earlier, sometimes on trail runs you can fall. And so that's a big one there for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. There is a big difference with, like, the amount of light it puts out and how it can sit on your head.

Yep. Earlier you talked about Salomon and being able to learn from them as well. And what sort of additional ways do you work with that? Is that purely, like, connecting with some other Salomon athletes and sharing, like, different learnings? Or is it more supporting at races?

Yeah, it's all of it really. Salomon, um, has put together a great team. We have like a team manager who, you know, we can message or call at any hour of the day for a question or, um, yeah, just like if we need, you know, some tweak on our gear or something for a race that's coming up. Um, and our team gets together usually once or twice a year and does a training camp. So just like Training with people who are kind of going after the same things you're going after is pretty special in a sport that's done a lot of times all by yourself. To like have community around it in those training days that are pretty long is, um, a cool way to connect. And then, uh, we get to be involved a lot in like the gear and giving feedback on ideas they've got or prototypes they're putting out to try and make some sweet stuff for everyone to then use.

Yeah, it sounds like you're really surrounded by a team of legitimate people that want the best for you. And once again, that's a lot of trial and error in gear, what works for you and what might work for one person might not work for another. But yeah, yeah, the gear is definitely a big one. And I think the longer these races get, the more important having the right gear, the right shoes that fit well, the right socks, the right anti-chafe. Like, all of this becomes amplified when you're running for 20, 30, 40 hours.

Yeah, big time.

Yeah, that's a big one. Where can people find out more about you? Like, I have one more important question about, like, for the audience in a bit over here. But before we do, I do want to hear, like, you have a website. Where are you most active on? Which channels?

Yeah, um, Instagram is probably where I'm most active, so you can find me there just at Courtney Doolter. And then we do have a website, courtneydoolter.com, where we've tried to put, um, a lot of the different like films that have come out, or, um, we sell some different t-shirts on there. It's like pretty basic right now, but gives a little glimpse of my happening.

My daughters are a huge fan of the robot shirt that you're now wearing, actually. Like, I got them one of those like a few months ago and they've been proudly wearing it around the house.

That's so cool. I hope I meet them someday.

Yeah, absolutely. I was actually going to bring one of them, but it didn't work out time-wise. But absolutely, next time we'll bring her around. So good. In closing, one last question. There's quite a few recreational runners listening to this that are just looking to improve in their running. And that doesn't always mean, like, going further or longer or harder. It's just becoming a stronger, healthier, happier athlete. Do you have any closing thoughts, any advice that you would like to share?

Ah, I mean, I'm definitely not the holder of all running wisdom, but I think, uh, like consistency in running is key. It's one of those things that you don't see happening ever really. Like the improvement maybe doesn't feel like it's happening, but if you look way back, you know, look back a year or look back 6 months, like how far have you grown since that checkpoint? Then you realize like, oh, all the consistency, like just getting out the door and and lacing up shoes and putting in that 1 mile or 2 miles or 1 hour, whatever it is, it's helping. So I think it's like just being patient with it and consistent with it and enjoying it. It's fun. It's supposed to be fun.

So well said. It is interesting because the whole fun element is probably one of the most important threats that I keep hearing across elite athletes who bring it up as well. As in, like, if you're not having fun in doing this, it's really hard to stay in it for the long term, right? Like, yes, you can be consistent, but if you hate doing it, it's really hard in the long term. And so to hold joy, and I can absolutely see that when I look at you race, when I look at you train, you look like you're truly enjoying the process. And yeah, that's very inspiring for other people to see too.

So, well, thank you.

Thanks for watching. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this episode? There are so many good ones over there. I have a few different ones in mind, but I would love to hear from yours as well. Let me know in the comments over here on YouTube. If you haven't already, please hit the like and subscribe button down below to be the first to know when new videos launch. Have fun out there on your runs. Bye now.