#92: How to Crush MAF Low Heart Rate Training with William Barth

My heart rate is low. I'm not even running in any kind of strained way. I'm completely relaxed, and yet I'm just— I'm killing it. I'm crushing it, you know. So imagine what you can do in a race situation. Having run all my life, running competitively, running in marathons, running in 5Ks, 10Ks, uh, using this method, I just said it's just too slow. How do you get fast? You know, like they say, run slow to get fast. That's sort of corny, but but there is a truism to it. That is when the MAF method really hits, hits home.

Hi there, Floris Gierman here. Did you know that I write a weekly newsletter on the topic of running? Different training tips, insights, advice, and learnings from along the way. If you would like to sign up, you can go to extramilest.com/subscribe. And you will also receive a free PDF of our low heart rate training guide. That is extramilest.com/subscribe. Recently I asked a question in my newsletter, what more content would you like to see in my YouTube videos, in the podcast, and in the newsletter? More than 300 people filled out the survey and some eye-opening answers there that I will share in a minute. I want to say congrats to Paul Knight. He was the contest winner of that survey, $200 gift card to Path Projects.

So check out your inbox box for that to claim your prize.

One of the comments came up that these recreational runner conversations are more relatable. Most of these athletes also have busy lives, families, work, trying to balance it all. There's definitely more of these types of conversations in the works. Also, several people requested more conversations with elite athletes, with running coaches, health experts. So a lot of those type of conversations are planned out for the coming months and years over here. Today's guest is a very passionate recreational runner from Los Angeles. His name is William Bart. He has improved significantly in his running, and he's learned many things along the way, made many mistakes as well. So we'll talk through some of the challenges that he encountered, some of the obstacles he overcome, and how he's able to run so strong at this point. William Bart is member of our Personal Best Program. To find out more, check out pbprogram.com. Today's episode was sponsored by LMNT. Last night I was sitting in the sauna. I really enjoy taking sauna sessions. It helps in a variety of different ways, but I do end up sweating a lot. Last night, together with my training partner Duke Tran, we're doing like a 30-minute session in the sauna, then went over to the ice bath, 20-minute session in the sauna, then the ice bath, and then 15-minute sauna into the ice bath. We're both drinking quite a bit of water, but we also had some electrolyte in there. So LMNT makes these little electrolyte pouches with potassium, magnesium, and sodium, and it really replenishes your electrolyte levels. Now that the colder months are here in the US and many other parts of the world, you can enjoy LMNT as a hot beverage as well. The Chocolate Madly is only available for a limited time when the temperatures drop. You can enjoy them on their own, you can mix them in with your coffee, or you can get creative with other recipes. Each box includes 10 Chocolate Raspberry, 10 Chocolate Chai, and 10 Chocolate Mint. For a limited time only, you can get a free sample pack with 8 different flavors when you go to drinkelementi.com/flow. I hope you enjoy my conversation with William Bart.

William Bart, welcome to the Extra Mile Show.

Thank you. Thank you, Floris. It's an honor to be here with you and to talk with you.

It was a nice morning run, afternoon run we just went on right by the river ditch and being able to catch up and talk about all of the different things you've learned on your running journey.

Yeah, it was a beautiful run and you might note we ran it at MAF, maximum aerobic function.

And the awesome thing was you showed up with your carbon-plated shoes and you're like, yeah, I have to keep up with you. It's like, I like running at a low intensity. I truly do.

That's wonderful that you have that grace for your students and the runners that you train.

No, it has been so awesome to see your running journey. We've known each other for about 2 years now. You're one of the members of the PB program. And just seeing, like, I mean, we've met each other at the Chicago Marathon. We've seen each other several times on our Zoom coaching calls and just seeing the joy that you're getting out of your training journey, the progress that you have made over the years. So I really want to take a deeper dive into that. We were talking about Arthur Lydiard and that you have already been familiar with him for many, many years and actually grew up running with some of the fundamentals of his teaching. Maybe you can start out there, like your, your earlier running years. And also for those who are unfamiliar with Arthur Lydiard, what some of those fundamentals in your training were.

Yeah, I'm happy to do that. But as we're talking about Arthur Lydiard, also one of his principles was the importance of having a coach. And that's something that you and your program, I think, give to your members and your runners. You really are our coach. I think of you that way. And it's, I think, one of your best self for your talking about, you know, Floris Gierman. And it's so important. Important for a runner to have a coach, uh, to, to understand, to help you understand what you're doing and how to do it. Because runners just like to run. We don't like to think about things too much. And you as a coach help us, help to guide us, uh, and give us that important, uh, sort of guidance that every runner needs. So that's, that's what's important about you. And also what is important in the Arthur Lydiard method that I trained under, God, a half century ago now.

So It was eye-opening to me. You mentioned, like, all right, at 70 years old, you're now running very strong. Right. Yet you started running, like, in high school. You are, like, even earlier than that.

Even earlier. Yeah.

And it was, what, 50 years ago that you started training with Lydiard's method?

Yeah. I actually started in junior high school and applied to high school track team. I love football, basketball. Of all, all the sports, swimming. But there was something so basic about running, so sort of meditative and transcendent about it. You didn't have to put a ball in a hoop, or you didn't have to do any fancy moves. You just run, and you could lose yourself in it. And that is what sort of attracted running to me back in the day. Like we were talking about on our run today, they had a philosophy of running called— sort of a culture of running known as the loneliness of the long-distance runner. It was a sport that you did alone, sort of in isolation. And people didn't know it or understand how people could run miles and miles. And so that sort of attracted me. And so when I applied to run track and field in high school, I was admitted initially into a program called cross-country. And I didn't— as a youngster, I didn't understand what cross-country was, but it sounded like a sport that you would learn in a private school, maybe a New England school, like rugby be, or rowing or cross-country, you know, like what is it exactly? And that's where I met my high school running coach who really was one of these great high school coaches who was schooled and trained in the Arthur Lydiard method. And that's what he taught us and conveyed to us. So happy to talk a little bit about that.

For those who are unfamiliar with his approach, can you share a little bit more high level what that training was like?

The Arthur Lydiard approach is, it's similar, very similar. To the Floris Gierman, Phil Maffetone approach in many ways. And probably the most— the distinguishing factor that makes him a little different from Floris Gierman or Phil Maffetone is back in the day, we didn't have the knowledge or technical ability to understand heart rhythms. So we didn't use the heart rate or heart rhythm as a metric about how to train. But the basic idea of the Lydiard Method is very much the same as the Maff method. And the basic sort of corpus or thesis of the method is building aerobic endurance. That's it in a nutshell. And how to, how to go about doing that. And the, the method was very similar to your method and the, and the Phil Mathitow method, which is a long, slower running within a, a comfort zone. Now, again, we couldn't use heart rhythm to determine how to do that. You have that method, you know, the Phil Matheson method, 180 minus your age plus adjustments, and you monitor your heart rate with your fancy heart, you know, monitoring equipment. We didn't have that. So we had to really use what you would call today perception method. And the way we sort of learned it was we talked about it as running within your comfort zone. And what, what is a comfort zone? It doesn't mean sitting on a couch, eating potato chips and watching a movie, but it means that you're running at a rate where you're not hyperventilating. You're running within your breath. You're within your, you know, a comfortable, comfortable breathing zone. And, uh, and staying with that in that comfort zone. Now, in a race situation, uh, even in a race situation, you would always try to remain in that zone, maybe running faster and faster and faster to the edge of the comfort zone, but always within the comfort zone, never to the point of hyperventilating, or what you might call huffing and puffing. We, we would never want to exceed that, uh, that sort of red line. That, that was— that's how we, uh, trained. But the, the idea of the method was to to build aerobic endurance. And the way our coach sort of explained that to us was, uh, it's sort of like a bank account. And when you go out and you run slow, you're putting money in the bank, you know, and you're— and you're saving money. And the slower you run, or the rather the longer you run at a slow pace, you're building the bank account. You're getting richer and richer, or you're building your aerobic endurance, your aerobic system.

Yeah.

Um, the things that you talk about, mitochondria and all the things within system. When you're racing, our coach, he would explain it to us, you're actually making a withdrawal from the bank. You're taking money out of your bank account. You're spending some of your money. And so you're actually weakening, in a sense, the aerobic system. And that's how we sort of thought about building an aerobic base. So the idea was to get to build wealth, to get richer by longer, slower running. And that's in a nutshell, sort of the basis of the method. Now, to be fair to Arthur Lydiard, I mean, he— there's many other aspects to the method, including nutrition and training and the importance of a coaching— a relationship with the coach. That's a very important aspect of the training.

I think it's an interesting one, the bank account. And I want to go towards that a little bit more because yes, absolutely, there's a time and place for base building and building that fundamental, like that foundation. And then at some point, like adding in some speed work can absolutely be beneficial for most athletes. Like, yes, some athletes who are quite injury prone, they have to be very cautious with speed work and might be better off like just sticking with low intensity running., or doing cross-training in other sorts of ways, getting that high-intensity running in. But then indeed on race day, that's when typically, depending on the race distance, like marathon, 50K, you're still gonna be racing above your zone 2 quite a bit. Uh, once you start going into the ultras, the 50-milers, the 100-milers, a lot of people are racing that at their zone 2 or, or even below it just to be able to finish. And it's this fine line indeed. I do think there's plenty of people who are over-race, who are doing races every weekend or who are racing several times a month. And at that point, I think sometimes people don't realize how taxing running endurance events can be on them, that it takes quite a bit out of you, that you need to recover from some of that. And this is why I think, especially in recent years, I've seen quite a few people overstressed, overtrained, burned out, injured. Like it just seems like it's been amplified even in recent years more than what I've seen previously. Also because I think life stress has amplified for some people too. But yeah, this is where I think that combination of the low intensity running and then like adding in, sprinkling in some high intensity running and then racing from time to time, but not overdoing it either.

Yeah, yeah. No question about it. I mean, the higher intensity stuff is the stuff that runners love. I mean, I love to get on a track and run repeat. 400s or 800 meters at race, at high intensity. It's quite thrilling, but it's also, you have to be quite cautious about it as I learned the hard way.

Well, let's talk through that a little bit more because you initially like were introduced to the Arthur Lydiard method, like trained with that. Then at some point you started adding in quite a bit more speed work and you started experiencing some pretty significant injuries too.

Correct.

Correct. And, and that seemed to be kind of a repeating theme over the years for you.

For me personally, yes.

It, it—

I don't like to think about it because it's funny, once you recover from an injury, you don't think about it anymore. Okay, I can run again. And you just, you just go, go out and, and, you know, all out again. But, uh, it unfortunately for me, yeah, it was a repeating theme and it, it hurt my earlier running career as a, as a youngster. Uh, and I, I think it sort of It's funny, it sort of left a little space, psychic space in my development because I was always thinking if I hadn't been injured, you know, what could I have achieved? And that also drew me to your program because when I started watching your podcasts, I realized, you know, I think that's the missing link. I think that's the mistake I've been making all these years. I think I just had too much high-intensity training. And you really lay it out, you so emphasize this in your program. Your program, just the whole approach of the Personal Best Program and the MAF method that you explain to people and discuss. And I thought that was the missing link for me. And I've been doing it for a couple of years now and I think I'm onto something. So, but I don't know what my potential is or how far I can take this. But, you know, as you told me when I first met you in your first, one of our first podcasts, 'cause I was injured and I couldn't run the Boston Marathon, you told me I'll be back, I'll make I'll qualify again for the Boston Marathon. And I did. And, you know, I'll run it in April, Lord willing and faith willing. But I think your program provided me, someone who was injury-prone and with quite serious injuries, it sort of, they say in the, what do they say in the churches? Seek and ye shall find. I sought and I found. I found your program. And I think, I think it is going to make the difference. It's going to help me reach the potential that I really never think I reached as a younger runner.

So that— Let's talk about your actual marathon journey. When was your first marathon that you ran?

The first marathon was the Los Angeles Marathon, and it was back about 5, 6 years ago now, maybe a little longer. And because I was an experienced long-distance runner and I'd been running all of my life, You know, I sort of thought, you know, I know how to train myself and I know how to train and I can do this. I just never had tried a marathon. It wasn't that I didn't think I could do it. I just didn't see the virtues of it. So I trained like most people do with their local running clubs and running groups. And the sort of the method of most local running clubs is just covering the distance, training you to run. Further and further at a fast pace. But the problem with all of those groups are pretty much common as we've discussed, which is, okay, let's go out for a run and everybody takes off, you know? And the idea was, how do you get fast? Oh, you just run faster, longer. That's how you get faster. Which is, which the MAF method appropriately says, it's actually the opposite. It's running slower and building your aerobic strength so that you can run faster. So that's, that's counterintuitive because intuition would teach you, well, if you want to be fast, you got to run fast and you got to keep up, you know, not for a mile, but for 10 miles or 5 miles or, you know, but it's actually the reverse. It's actually running slow so that you build your aerobic endurance system because the race, it relies primarily, a marathon,— I think almost 100% or maybe 99%, from what I understand, on the aerobic endurance system. And if you don't, if you have a weak system, I think Phil Maffetone calls it— what does he call it? He has like a medical name for it, Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome. He actually makes it like a medical problem. So he's saying that people are aerobically underdeveloped. So if you're just going out and training by taking off and trying to run as fast as you can, as long as you can, No, I mean, it is a form of training and it is the kind of training that you usually get in most running clubs, but it's really not the proper method, I don't think.

It's funny because you and I, as we just left the office here before we started recording, we walked to the local, like, river ditch where we're going to start our run. And for the first 5 minutes, we just walked. You're like, you're the only coach that I've ever been with who actually walks. And I was like, Yep. This is how I like to start my run. It's so wonderful. Just kind of tuning in with the body and just like having mellow conversation before like starting a slow jog and picking up the pace gradually. Yeah.

And you, and the, and the enjoyment level, it's just, it's wonderful. It's just, it's so enjoyable to do it that way. Cause that's, that's the way the body is supposed to work, you know, to slowly warm up the body and get the body ready to run that that effort, that race, whatever that effort's going to be.

Yeah. So you have quite some experience right now with running, meaning like you've basically ran for 50-plus years.

Yeah. So from age, so age 15 to, so yeah, 50-plus, about 55 years.

So if you would have to give yourself, knowing what you know now, some advice to your younger self or to runners at the beginning stages of their running journey? Yeah. What high-level advice would you give?

My high-level advice would be, you know, do what Floris Gierman tells you to do. That's it. You could stop there. Don't think. Just do what he tells you to do. Now, this is the importance of coaching because, again, I think runners don't like to think. They just want to run. And that's what I like to do. I'm a runner. I'm not a coach, although I've trained in Arthur Lydie Method. I've read the books. I've watched your podcast. But at base, I just like to run. I want to— I'd like to transcend. I like to be at one with nature, you know, running, almost lose myself in the run and running at a fairly, you know, at fairly fast clip, you know, losing yourself in it. Uh, but, but, you know, maintaining good form and relaxed breathing, all of these things, because that's part of the transcendent, transcendent procedure that you, you implement when you run. Um, but, but yeah, I would say do what Floris Gierman tells you to do. In other words, not so much, not just you as the individual, but your method. Keep it simple. Um, run slow. Longer and, uh, and, and build your aerobic base or your aerobic strength through that method. And that will serve you well when you race or when you run at high intensity, it will serve you well. And what's really exciting is when you find yourself running at a very fast clip with a low heart rate, that is when the MAF method really hits, hits home and you go, oh my God, I'm running 9-minute miles or 8-something a mile and my heart rate is at zone, what do you call zone 2 or whatever, you know, name you want to give it, MAF. My heart rate is low. I'm not even running in any kind of strained way. I'm completely relaxed and yet I'm just, I'm killing it. I'm crushing it. You know, so imagine what you can do in a race situation.

Yeah. I think it's like I want to talk briefly through. So there's a few different approaches. That people take in their running journey. And you're saying like, ah, I just want to run. I don't want to necessarily think that much about what I should be doing and where and why. Like, you understand the thought process, but you just want to go out and run. Yet sometimes when you and I have conversation, I challenge you too, as in like, all right, follow your intuition. What feels right here to you? And what I found interesting is over the last 2 years, you've become more and more in tune with your body. Meaning, well, we had a conversation earlier about you not having taken any alcohol during a certain training cycle, then taking in some alcohol and just seeing how you felt the next day. What happened with your resting heart rate? What happened with your sleep that night? Whereas there's a lot of people who are probably not that familiar with their own body and that much in tune with their own body. But even just in the last 2 years, I've noticed more and more that you're making some of those decisions and you're able to feel that and be more intuitive in your training. And I think that's a very important part as well, the flexibility of it. Like we were saying earlier, sometimes the recovery might take a little bit longer. Like athletes in their 50s, 60s, 70s— I'm 42 now. I notice my recovery takes longer than when I was 30 years old. And so being flexible and intuitive on how you adjust your training on the day-to-day versus rigorously following a training schedule comes into play there too.

Yes, this is true. And I have to learn that lesson because that was a hard lesson for me to learn. But I also see the virtue of following the training schedule. I mean, I think we should be probably a little more disciplined than a lot of the members are. I mean, from what I'm sensing. Um, because that training schedule is very scientifically based, which you've assembled. It's really quite remarkable. That's why we were talking a little bit about two-a-day workouts and how difficult that is for my schedule. Yet I see the virtue of it, the, the science of it, you know, the physiology of it. Running a 50-minute segment, 3 to 5 miles maybe, depending on your pacing. But you're not running at pace, you're running at math., and then recovering all day and then running again later on in the day, another 4 to 5 miles. So you've, you've, you've achieved a tremendous volume level. That's a, that could be up to, you know, 7 to 10 to 11 miles in a day, in a single day. That's just day 1 of a 6-day training, uh, base building week. Um, uh, so I see the, the value of that, but I also, you have to apply it to your life. And I just say it's not working. I, you know, I gotta work all day and then I gotta go run, then And I gotta get home and I gotta get dinner. And it, it's just, it's just too hard. And I like the idea of just, look, I just wanna do my run.

Mm-hmm.

And, and get it done and have a great run. Maybe get up early in the morning. You know, I like running early. Yeah.

Sometimes.

And, uh, and then I'll be done with it, you know? And I, I like that. That's just the personal thing I like.

Yeah.

So I, so, so I, it is important, as you say, to pay attention to recovery and not, you know, not overdoing and not too much, you know, intensity. But at the same time, I think there's a virtue to, following the science of that training program that you've assembled. It's really important. And I think I would urge people to do it and I'm pretty strict with it.

Well, yeah. And I thought Andy Wheatcroft, he was one of the members who had a conversation with— I saw his podcast.

Yeah.

We recorded a podcast like last month. He made one comment that stood out to me and he was talking about taking a real honest look at yourself. Are you really are you really like consistent with your sleep? Or he was saying sometimes you see people running 30 miles one week and then 10 miles the next week, yet they have this ambitious goal of qualifying for Boston or doing other big goals. It's like, be honest with yourself. Yes. And is what you're doing really like— sometimes it might be that your goal might be too high for your current situation of what you're able to do. And that is fine. That's fine. But just be somewhat realistic with the goals that you're setting as well. I'm all about setting big goals, but you have to like show up to put in the work to get ready for that too.

Yeah, you absolutely do. And maybe I just, for me personally, running's the priority, especially as I age. I mean, that's something happened. One of my doctor who I see, my orthopedic surgeon who knows about my injuries and my running, and he's a big fan of my marathon running, told me, he said, you know, something happened with you. Like one day, just like a light turned on and you just became this completely dedicated runner. He didn't realize that I had been running all my life, really. But there really was a moment as I was aging more and more where that light goes off, where you see running as something much more than just a recreational form of exercise. Much, much more important. It becomes a complete life priority. And as high as you could raise the level. And I think it's a key to just existence and living because as you age, especially as I see sort of people up in my age level category, 70s and beyond, 70, 75, even late 60s, you really see the aging process take hold of them. They— some friends, acquaintances, they look old. People look at me and they go, "How do you do it?" You know, it's the running. There's just no question about it. It places your physiology, your intellect, your physiology on a different plane. Completely different plane. You don't have the health problems that most people do. And so So yeah, I made that sort of breakthrough or paradigm shift as I aged. I began to realize that running really is the priority and I make it that. It's not something I just try to fit in or try to do. It's sort of running first and then everything else.

Yeah. And I do think it is so connected too, right? Like if you're able to get some runs in, I think you can mentally you're more sharp during the day. Like you feel more energized, you feel like recharged, you have time. For me, sometimes it's just a solitude of running on my own to kind of digest my thoughts and just like, yeah, life can be busy and all of a sudden you have some time to think. Yeah. Like you have some time and sometimes you have no thoughts and sometimes you do, but you're just kind of more of a connection to self. And I noticed even periods of time when I when I don't end up running much, that there's almost that feeling of missing it, of like not even the physical part of feeling like you're losing fitness, which is one thing, but just a part of mentally of like, ah, I just feel alive when you're running.

Like, that's the joy of it. Yeah, I think it's in a way, you know, sort of at base what we're made to do. And the fact we don't run is, it might be a problem.

What was your What was your first experience like with low heart rate training? As in, like, yes, you grew up with Arthur Lydiard, and that was more like perceived effort. That's right.

Breathing and whatnot.

But once you started really going to, like, heart rate monitor and training with heart rate, how was that first experience for you?

It was, it was, it was very difficult. As, as a sort of understanding of your analysis as I was, because I had watched your podcasts, I had read the books, I had read Phil Maffetone's books, again, watched the podcasts and trained in the Arthur Lydiard method. I even reread Running to the Top. By the way, Run to the Top, it's called Running to the Top. So it's the idea, the idea of the Lydiard method is, you know, the way our coach explained it was reaching your potential. That's all. It doesn't necessarily mean winning every race or being in the Olympic Games. It's just reaching your potential as a human being, as a runner. But my first experience with the MAF method, I resisted it. I have to admit it. Even though intellectually I believed in it, I said, this is it. This is the missing link. This is the way I'm going to train and not get injured. This is what I, I have not been doing, and, and my injuries have been holding, holding me back from reaching my potential my whole running life. And yet I, I just so resisted the MAF, uh, technique. Um, I just couldn't see how someone could get fast running this way, you know, because when you first start, uh, you know, you're, you're running at a relatively low heart rate I, I did, I really didn't walk much, but I did do a little bit of walking to keep my heart rate lower. But it was just, I just couldn't see how I was going to be a fast runner, having run all my life, running competitively, running in marathons, running in 5Ks, 10Ks, using this method. I just said, it's just too slow. How, how is this going to work? And Uh, it was, it was pretty tough. What made you stick with it? First, just being a long-distance runner. I mean, I'd run all of my life, so, uh, just the sort of consistent approach that you learn as a runner, um, uh, sort of helped me to maintain or to, uh, sort of pick up the challenge of slow running, low heartbeat training. In other words, just, just the natural, uh, runner's instinct to keep with it. Let's, let's, let's keep running. Let's try to slow it down a little bit and keep the heart rate low, but let's keep at it. Uh, I mean, that's what, that's what distance runners do. I mean, how do we, how do we run 10Ks and half marathons? And, you know, you, you, you, you keep running. You just keep going. You, you don't stop. You know, you don't— that's just the runner's nature, I would say, is what kept me at it. But the other thing that kept me at it was because I kind of hadn't— I had no place else to go. I mean, I had been injured so bad. I tore my right hamstring. I tore my left hamstring. I hurt my low back. I cracked a couple of my vertebrae in my back. I had so many serious injuries. And my running career as a young runner was ruined by severe injury. That what else was I going to do? I mean, if this method doesn't work, what am I going to do? Go out and get what? You know, tear another muscle or break another bone or, you know, get more medical surgeries. I mean, people were telling me, you know, why don't you take up yoga or something or, you know, knitting or something, you know, something. You know, what do you— stop with this running already. And, you know, running is just— it's a part of me. And I, you know, I like swimming as well. But there's just something about running that, like I say, the transcendence transcendent quality of it, the, the, the aspects you're talking about, how it, it sort of clears the mind. Whatever your problems are mentally, physically, I don't know, long-distance running just cures everything. It just, it just makes everything right. And, uh, and that's what I just— that's one of the things I love about it. I also like being fast. I like running fast. I like competing, I have to admit. And I like, I like racing, you know. I enjoy that, you know, like racing within zone, though. Not overdoing it, but seeing what the body is capable of running at that fast pace for so many miles. That's just a wonderful feeling. It's such— so satisfying. And I just, I can't stress it enough. So it was those two things. I had no place else to go. This had to work for me or I was just going to be injured in my— I'd have to stop running. And two, just the runner's tendency to meet a challenge and to not give What was some aha moment for you in those early stages?

Was there any sort of progress that you gradually started seeing that kind of helped on that journey?

Yeah, I remember it was being with you on a Zoom call when you were sort of remarking to me and noting to me that I had a hard time. I think it was, yeah, I had a hard time getting my heart rate elevated. You know, like, you know, like you just love to hear that, you know, something like that. And that was early on that when I started, I had a hard time keeping my heart rate within math. But as I went on and on and did it and didn't give it up, now I had a hard time sort of getting it up, you know. And that was the aha moment. When that happens, when you see that you can run fast at the low heart rate level, that just blows your mind. It just— it's a— it's, it's just an— it's like a miracle drug, you know. It's, it's, it's, it's just amazing. It's, it's hard to, uh, understand. I'm running so fast and my heart rhythm is at, is at math, and it's hard to believe that that can happen. Even with all my knowledge and all the running I've done all my life, I really didn't believe it.

Yeah. Let's talk about your Chicago Marathon.

Yeah.

I think we learn a lot on every different race. Yeah. And I think a lot of things can go well. A lot of things did go well. And there were some learnings along the way as well. Yeah. So talk to me a little bit more about, for example, what was your thought process going into the race? How, what went well? What are some of the things that you could improve?

The, in terms of thought process going into the race, you realize how much tension you place on yourself. You know, I don't know if you recall that I had to text you because I had injured my toe.

I remember. Out of every injury you could get.

I injured my toe not running.

That's how it always happens. That's the trickiest part. You can do all this running and go through an entire training cycle, not get injured, and then like—

I was fine. Following the math method, the training cycle worked perfectly. I was in probably one of the best condition I've ever been in in my life. And then I injured myself at home doing something really stupid, really foolish. Actually, it wasn't so much foolish. It was just kind of a silly injury, but I had a nightmare and I was— I dreamt someone was breaking into our home and I went after the guy and I got in a fight with him and I tried to kick him. And it's hard to move when you're sleeping, you know? So I— but I managed to kick him, kick the burglar who had broken into our home. I ended up kicking the wall and sort of chipping the bone in my toe.

I had to go to the doctor.

And this was all in your dream, right? This was in my dream.

There was no one. I got the guy in my dream. I got him. I mean, look, someone breaks into your house, I mean, my family, I had to protect them, right? That's what we men do. So, so, so I got him, but I also broke my toe in the process because I ended up not kicking him but a wall since I was dreaming and having a nightmare. And so, but maybe that was all part of the training. Maybe the, the pressure and tension of knowing, you know, I'm at, I'm at the end of my training cycle, I'm gearing up for the marathon, and I'm under a kind of a sort of a nervous tension, you know. And maybe that was Maybe that was part of it, you know. But in any event, I was able to get through the injury okay. I went to the doctor. He said, no, you're fine. You can keep running. The doctor had me tape it up a little bit. But, but, so, but that aspect of it, the sort of the tension of training, maybe my lesson would be, be a little easy on yourself. You know, if you're, if you're following a good training schedule, you're putting in the volume and you're consistent, you know, relax. You're doing everything you can do. You know, you don't have to be so hypertense about it. And, you know, try to keep it in perspective. That's important. You know, I'm not training for the Olympics, although for me it feels like I am, you know, but I'm not. But that was one lesson. That was one of the takeaways. The other was something we've talked about, which was the importance of fueling during a race. And I know about the importance of fueling and I practiced fueling, but I didn't fuel enough. And I didn't realize that until I had actually talked to you. And then I started thinking about it and I, yeah, Floris, that's why you're the coach. You're right. Fueling is critical. And even though we know it and we practice it, and I love the Precision Gels that you, you know, you help advertise a little bit. And I think it's a wonderful product.

I love it.

Of it, but I wasn't doing it enough.

I just wasn't. And this is one of the interesting things, I think. Sometimes we can go through an entire training cycle and everything goes well. Yes, something might happen, like non-running related or whatever, but I think a lot of people underestimate the race day strategy as far as for the pacing, as far as for nutrition, as far as for day off. We spent all this time, months and months and months on the actual training, right?

Yeah.

And then actual race day execution, that's very important as well. And I think like fine-tuning like some of those things, like knowing what your pacing plan is going to be, knowing what your fueling strategy is going to be and trying to stick with that, yet being flexible too. Sometimes everything can happen on race day, right? Like we have a plan and we almost have to have a plan B and a plan C or, or just knowing in advance that something things are going to be different and staying calm with that and working our way through it. And this is also why I think the power of journaling after a race like this, what went well, what can be improved, and really doing that relatively quickly after a race. Because I very often, I'm racing and I have all these thoughts of like, oh yeah, I should be doing this differently for next time. And then I go through the finish line and go back to the hotel and I pass out on my bed and I completely forget about it. Whereas I think like sometimes even taking 5 minutes just to type in some notes in your phone or like sitting down with a journal and writing down some notes, it's—

Yeah, it's critical. It's sort of at that moment after you've finished, say, a marathon or the day after, your thinking is also like heightened. In other words, everything becomes clear. And what you're talking about is so important because you're never going to have that clarity clarity as clear in your mind as you will at that time. Immediately after a marathon, days after a marathon, everything will become clear to you. You know, maybe more long runs or proper fueling or whatever the lesson learned was. You will never have the clarity at those moments after a competitive marathon. And so you shouldn't lose that moment. And you should do exactly as you say, take advantage of it, write it down. And I actually do that myself. And the fueling though came from you. And I didn't believe it at first because I'm a runner. I just want to run. I don't like to eat when I run. I mean, I have to be honest. No, I don't like taking gels every half hour. I really don't. I don't want to eat. I just want to run. You know, let me run. You know, back in the day, You know, we didn't have 50,000 people at a marathon. You know, 40 people would show up. That would be a huge crowd at a marathon. It was one water station, mile 13, 13 miles out, 13 miles back. That's how they ran marathons. You know, so fueling every 30 minutes, taking gels, eating and ingesting while you're in the middle of a run, the natural, you know, your inclination is, no, I don't wanna do that. You know, I just wanna run. I don't want to eat. You know, I can, I'll eat after the run, like before the run, but don't make me eat while I'm running. You know? Or, or drink, you know, or maybe drink a little bit, just, just a little bit, spit it out and keep running. You just don't dehydrate. But, but no, fueling is— well, you know what happens. You hit, you hit the so-called wall, which is not a wall. You've just depleted your energy resources. Your glycogen is used up, your salt's used up, you didn't fuel and replace it. So what do you think's going to happen? It's like a car running out of gas. The car's just not going to move. And that's guess what will happen to you if you do not fuel. Like a car out of gas, you'll just be out of gas.

It doesn't matter.

You, you could try to run through it. Well, you can power through it, but most people can't even power through it.

Oh, trust me, I've bonked several times in long training runs. I've bonked in the CIM Marathon. I had a good bonk in one of my 100-milers. I had a proper bonk. So I, I absolutely— when you hit the wall, it is pretty much mission impossible to try to run through it. So I can definitely relate with those feelings as well.

It's hard to believe it happens to you, but it does. Because I remember one podcast too where you were doing that ultra run and you had to stop in for chocolate and coffee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chocolate and coffee was your fuel. That's pretty— caffeine and sugar. Yeah.

And a Coke or something. It is pretty mind-blowing though what— like sometimes we think, like we try to think positive thoughts and try to do whatever we can to overcome certain obstacles. But when our sugar levels are low, when we're out of energy completely, it's quite hard to think clear. And just the impact of some extra carbs, some extra caffeine, whatever works for you in that case, can work magical for just clear thinking and for like having that energy to move forward again.

Yeah, and that's That's, you know, still learning lessons, but that was the lesson of my Chicago. But still with it all, even not so much bonking, but I did slow dramatically the last several miles. I still had a Boston qualifying time. So that part was good. I had a personal best. That part was good. In my personal journey, I don't feel like I've reached my potential and I feel that you're— thank God, you know, your program has given me an opportunity to attempt to do that, and that's what I'm grateful for.

So I know that you have more, like, strong running times ahead of you, especially since a lot of checks are in the box, and there's a few tweaks here and there that I know is going to make a massive difference in the overall race day experience. And we have been able to dial in in and tune in like a lot of these different areas. And now it's just like, all right, let's dial that button and dial that one in a bit further. But so what was your—

what ended up being your finish time in Chicago? 3:55 and I forgot the seconds, but I think it was 40-something seconds. So not that— it wasn't what I would have liked. But one of the benefits of reaching 70 years of age is the qualifying times for Boston really dramatically are raised. So I get to play the so-called age card, but I don't think it's fair in a way because, you know, it probably should be— I still feel the qualifying time should be lower for someone sort of in my age category, but it is quite, quite, quite high.

3:55 is an incredible strong time, especially seeing where you have come and over the years indeed. Also keeping in mind, left hamstring tear, right hamstring tear, Yeah, like I remember having conversations with you after you had torn your hamstring and you were back to step zero again.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like just seeing literally from how we're going to build you from the ground up again. Right. With starting with when you were clear to be able to walk consistent and then very gradually. But there you are, like with patience, with consistency, with thinking long term. That was one of the other topics we've often talked about. Like we're not here to like be able to do hill repeat sprints next month. It's like walk what can we do? And like, what is causing some of these hamstring tears too? So we started talking about some of the other exercises to be able to activate your glutes more. Like, we have talked about Laurens van Lingen with the backwards walk and the flow rope to awesome eyes. We've talked through a lot of the different things that we've covered here on the podcast, that we've covered in the PB program, just to not make some of those same mistakes, but really looking at what's the root cause. And some of this could have been indeed some of the wrong running technique and tweaking things over there. And then the strength training component, the mobility component. There's been a lot of different things from—

Yes, it's so true. You forgot to mention you having us take a— find a tire at a tire shop and then dragging it 200 yards in the middle of the street and everyone's saying, what the hell are you doing dragging this tire down the middle of the street? I go, you don't understand. I had a torn hamstring and my coach wants me to strengthen my glutes or whatever.

And all credit goes out to Laurens van Lingen for that one. Yes, exactly. And it's made a positive difference in my running and in a lot of people around us.

The hard part was, you know, I was like, wait a minute, someone's just going to give me a tire? Just go to— and sure enough, you go to these tire stores. Yeah, they have used tires that they're just going to throw away. And yeah, they're happy to give it to you. I didn't— I thought I was going to— I didn't mind paying for it if I had to pay for it. But I didn't think they just give it to you. And sure enough, they do. And I actually got a couple, I got a heavy tire. So it really, it really does work. It really does help strengthen you. But my strength, the strength training aspects, that's something I had to learn again the hard way. And I also benefited from having a physical therapist. And yeah, I do my physical therapy strength training exercises are almost Daily, almost daily. And I, I didn't do it this morning, but I try to do it almost every morning, uh, before I run. And that involves push-ups, sit-ups, planking, uh, Superman, uh, you know, low back strengthening, uh, you know, the, the bridges, uh, and, and, and countless other things I do almost daily. And I did them for rehabilitating my low back problems, my torn hamstring problems, building up the glutes. They always say strength training is indispensable in marathon running because you're, you know, the stress you're putting on your body. Think about it, you know, you're running what, 60, 40 miles a week, 60 miles a week. You're running in a race that's 26 miles long. You have to strengthen your body. How can you do that? Or you're, you're going to get injured. You're just going to be injured. There's just no way around it. And, and so, yeah. Yeah, you, you have to do that strength training, and you, and you kind of made me do that. And, and I, and that is a part of my almost daily training. I don't, and I do it kind of the Floris Gierman way. I don't really, you know, go to a gym and work out for an hour. I just try to do little bits, maybe 10, 15 minutes every single day, sometimes increasing it to 20 minutes every day, just little bits. You'd be surprised of the progress you'll make even, you know, doing push-ups push-ups every day or other kinds of, you know, isometric kind of strength training exercises and the effect it has on you. And I like doing it naturally. I actually, again, like eating during when I'm running. I don't like artificial things. I don't like lifting weights. I'd rather do push-ups, sit-ups, headstand, handstands, things like that. I just like doing things naturally.

That's just me. Well, once again, you have found found what works well for you. And we were earlier talking about in some of our speed workouts, there's often 3 different options. One might be a faster workout at a higher— like a shorter, higher intensity workout. Some somewhere in the middle, and some still higher intensity but a little bit longer. Yes, there's benefits to all, and some athletes are more drawn to— like sometimes we see in particular younger athletes, like they like to run 5K paces and run pretty hard 5K paces, 10K paces, whereas some marathoners, especially when they're like a bit older, they might find that too hard, too much, especially for injury-prone. So they might go for, let's, let's do some half marathon pace runs or let's do some like intervals. At just a little bit faster than marathon pace. So it's a little bit longer and the recovery time might be a little bit longer, but like doing what you're drawn to. And even in this case, you're drawn towards doing it in a natural way, not necessarily going to a gym. So do that, right? Right. And there's other people who are gym rats who love the gym equipment, who might like more of a community. They might like more people around them. And so just finding what attracts you to doing those things is very important.

Yes. And that also is something about marathon training that, you know, kind of strikes me because, you know, thinking about, well, I'm training for a marathon, a 26.2-mile run race. And so I'm going to go to a track and run repeat 400s, you know, one lap around a lap, really fast, which I sort of love to do because it reminds me of my youth when I was in high school training for the mile run. That's how you train— repeat 400s, uh, and, you know, you know, you try to run a mile under 5 minutes or, you know, and, uh, 4-something if you can do it. So there's a certain attractiveness to that kind of training, even to an older runner or a, you know, more advanced or more mature runner, I should say, however you want to say it. Um, so there— but there's something that attracts you because it, it harkens back to youth and, and, and being on the track and really taking off and running repeat 400s or 800s, um, until you tear your hamstring. And then, and then you think, well, shoot, maybe— but, but it's not just because you're older. I mean, to train that way, you really have to build yourself up to training that way. You don't just go out and run all out, you know, repeat 400s. Of course you're going to get injured unless you've— you sort of slowly build up your speed work in the proper way. And you really can't do that, I don't think, in the recreational running club environment. Maybe if you're on an athletic team competing and you're training every single day, but just to do it kind of recreationally, to go out and run repeat 400s, you know, all out, less than 5K pace, you know, at 9, you know, whatever interval, you know, high intensity you're running at, I think I think it's just a recipe for injury. And at the same time, you know, you're preparing for a marathon. So there is something very attractive about doing repetitive mile runs, you know, running a 1-mile distance or even longer, a fartlek. I like to do fartleks. I mean, I like to go 10 minutes at a tempo, a fartlek tempo, and then take a few minutes rest and then maybe break it down, go 7 minutes and then go 5 minutes or build it up, you know, 5 minutes, 7 minutes, 10 minutes. I, I love the fartlek concept. It's just, it's such a beautiful— I, we can learn so much from the Swedish approach to running, I think. And, um, that's why we were talking about that. Oh yeah. You know, my view is that for marathon training, these longer intervals, these longer tempo sustained effort types of vehicles, whether it be a fartlek or repeat miles, uh, are far a better approach to training for a marathon. I— it just makes sense to me. But anyway, that's just sort of my feeling about it. But at the same time, I see the attractiveness of why people want to run repeat 400 or repeat 800 meters. How does that make you run 26.2 miles faster? I, I don't quite understand that, but I guess it does. I think the longer, uh, intensity sessions are, are better for that.

Yeah. And I think, I think there's something about both, meaning like even sometimes we talk about 200 meters on, 200 meters off on the track. Like I think sometimes when people transition from low heart rate training, having done that for quite a while with minimal to no speed work, and then going to adding in more speed work, even doing that 200 meters on, 200 meters off just to become familiar with, all right, let's add in some speed work without going like crazy, 100% max all effort. It's like easing into some speed work and then maybe like some 400s. I think 800s can be really nice, whereas like, yes, 3 minutes or 4 minutes, depending on 5 minutes, whatever your, your pace is that you're running it at, with relative short rest breaks in between can be a really nice way of getting familiar with running at your lactate threshold. But then again, for some people that might be too much on the body and they might dial it back a little bit more.. So I think there's different approaches to get to the same goal, and it's not a one-size-fits-all approach for each and every runner there. Yeah.

Those are really important points you just made. I think you're right about that. Yeah. And also trying to implement those, the sort of what we used to call wind sprints, like you were, but the way you make it very easy for people to do, you say, look, you know, do some repeat 60 yard intervals, you know, before a run or after a run, you know, just to introduce a little bit of intensity work, repetitive intensity work for the heart to get up to speed. That's very important.

Very important. I want to be respectful of your time. Thank you. There's quite some people listening to the podcast who want to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete. Do you have any closing thoughts, anything you'd like to share?

Yeah, again, I'd like to give some great philosophical message to the runners or like Andy did, you know, have a list of, you know, 10 things I'd like to suggest. But I really do think the Arthur Lydiard idea of having a coach is really important. What you've brought to people, I mean, I'm not just saying this because, you know, I'm in your program and I've been doing it, but it's really important to have some guidance to know what you're doing, to have a coach. I think you even once remarked that it made a big difference in your own running journey. It's certainly what I needed. So what do you need to do? Listen to what Floris is talking about. Just listen to Floris Gierman's approach. It's actually quite simple. There's a beautiful simplicity to the idea of slower running or low heartbeat training. Just listen to that simple message and develop it and apply it and do it yourself in a consistent fashion. The benefit is remarkable. The side effects are remarkable. It fights aging, I can tell you that. You'll lose weight and you're gonna get fast. That's where the fun part starts is when you find yourself running fast at a low heartbeat, that's a thrill. And 'cause now you know you can even run faster at higher heart rates. So now you're really fast. So you know, like they say, run slow to get fast. That's sort of corny, But, but there is a truism to it. So I, my message is, is that again, the importance of having a coach and some guidance and, and Floris, you, you, you offer that. And I think people should just take advantage of it and, and learn, learn from it. It's, it's, it's quite simple. It's not hard. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to learn it. You just gotta like, like runners do, we have to be committed and disciplined and most runners are, so should have no problem.

That's my great message. Well, I appreciate all the kind words. I really do. And for anyone listening here, this was not scripted in any sort of way. No, no, no, he didn't pay me to say that. There was no compensation involved here. No, but like it has been wonderful seeing your journey. And I think, like I said earlier, this is still, there's a lot of progress still to follow here. And like aerobic development takes time, like getting all the, all the different elements dialed in correctly. You have the Boston Marathon coming up here. Like you were saying, you're just on day 2 of your 18-week training schedule right now. And there's going to be a lot more learnings as we do through every training cycle again. Right. And then who knows what's going to happen on race day? We can do everything we can. That's right. We just have to enjoy the process. That's right. And so It's been wonderful to see you. Thank you for coming down and sharing your experiences. And I look forward to many more runs here in the near future.

I'm going to look forward to it. Thank you very much for all you're doing for everyone. Thank you.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Okay. Thanks for tuning in on this conversation. If you'd like to sign up for my weekly newsletter and receive a free PDF of a low heart rate training guide, check out extramilist.com/subscribe. Subscribe. Every Friday I send a newsletter with different running tips, insights, different learnings from along the way. You can sign up at extramilest.com/subscribe. Would love to hear from you. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this episode? There's a lot of different comments on YouTube that you can often get a good idea of what were some of the takeaways from other people, because I do notice, like, even right now when going through my book, writing my first book, and some of the YouTube comments I'm actually integrating within these chapters. Every time when I look through these comments, there's like different nuggets from different people that I'm like, oh yeah, that really did stir that. And so it's sometimes nice to actually go through some of those comments over there. So yeah, let me know in the comments on YouTube, what was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote? Learn more about the PB program at pbprogram.com. And I would say we'll be back for more podcast.

I think it's just time to close this thing off.

Have fun out there on your runs.

Bye now.