#94: Massive Running Improvements, 5:28 to 3:43 Marathon, with Daniel Edwards

It doesn't even really seem fair because it's so much easier than what I was doing. When you can do something that's much easier and get a better result, I mean, that's just like a no-brainer. The more data you get, the more predictable you can be. It's the easiest plan I've ever tried to stick with, and that's why I've been able to stick with it. I was looking for something that I could continue to do till I'm 71, 81. Something that would age with me because a lot of the stuff is just too intense and it's— you're not going to be able to maintain it as you age.

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In this conversation, Daniel Edwards shares his transformation as a recreational runner. He ran several personal bests in his 50s, including a 30-minute personal best time in the Richmond Marathon recently. He did this through the implementation of low heart rate training, consistent training habits, and maintaining a strong mental focus. Daniel is a member of our Personal Best Running coaching program, and more information can be found at pbprogram.com. This episode is brought to you by LMNT. As someone who runs daily and who coaches athletes as well, I want to share one of the daily essentials that has been a complete game changer for me, and that is LMNT electrolytes. LMNT provides the perfect ratio of sodium, magnesium, and potassium that the body needs with zero sugar and no artificial ingredients. I drink it every day for my training, for my recovery, and for optimizing my overall performance. It is backed by science and it comes in these little electrolyte pouches that is perfect for runners on the go. For the colder winter months, Element has released their limited edition Chocolate Madly with several flavors such as chocolate mint, chocolate chai, and chocolate raspberry, which you can actually enjoy hot. And here's something special for the Extramiles community: you can get a free sample pack with any purchase. These are 8 of the little pouches with any purchase. Plus, they offer free US shipping and a no-questions-asked return policy. You can head to drinkelement.com/flow to receive your free sample pack. That is drinkelement.com/flow. Hope you enjoy my conversation with Daniel Edwards.

Daniel, it is, uh, good to see you again. We've, we've spoken many times on Zoom in the last few years over here, and I'm glad we're getting to record this conversation today.

Yeah, it's great to be here, Floris. I appreciate the invite.

For sure. You've learned a lot of things in the last few years, and we're going to talk about your running progress, the different things along the way, how you have progressed in your training and racing. But let's start out, like, what were some of the things that you feel you wish you would have known earlier on in your running journey? What were some of those things that if you could give advice to your younger self, what would that be at this stage?

Yeah. That's a good question. And it's a lot of the stuff that I've been able to learn over the past couple of years because I started running early. I ran my first 5K in, like, 2016. So, it's been several years and I was on and off and I kind of progressed through the the 5K, 10K, half, full, but they were all disasters. Uh, that when I first started, I mean, the first 4 marathons I ran, none of them panned out. Uh, they all had one thing in common. I would fall apart at the end, somewhere around mile 18, mile 20, end up walking a lot the last 5 or 6 miles. So when been able to do differently now is, since joining the Personal Best program, I've just increased my running IQ so much. And now I realize, just looking back at my younger self, I didn't stand a chance at being successful. I didn't know anything about zone 2. I didn't know anything about heart rate zones. I didn't know anything about lactate threshold. I didn't know anything about how important recovery was. Fueling, you name it. I mean, the stuff that you stress on the Zoom calls about sleep is just as important as running. All I was doing was running and trying to run harder, and I stayed sore the whole time. It was just a bad experience, and it wasn't really something that was sustainable for any period of time. So I've learned a lot in the last couple of years, I would say. Running out of Q went from about 0 to maybe 95 just being in the program for the last 2 years.

So what would that be like? You're talking about looking at a lot of things outside of running was one of them. What are some of the other things that you have changed? Because it is interesting to hear you say so several of your races from 5K to 10K, half marathon, marathon were disasters. As in the wheels falling off, like hitting the walls, getting injured. What were some of the changes that you were making throughout the process, like even in your running and outside of your running? What were some of those concrete examples?

Biggest impact that— biggest change that I made was joining the Personal Best Program. I came to that— a buddy of mine, we reconnected a couple of years ago, Greg, a fellow PV member, and I saw him at a 10K, local 10K, and I realized he was a lot faster than the last— what— than what I remembered him being. I mean, we were going out and he was coming back and he was like 4th overall. I'm thinking after the race, I'm like, damn, Greg, what have you been doing? And he told me about the Zone 2 training and your program that he had joined. So after getting in that, I mean, it was just taking the advice that you learn on all the Zoom calls, through the videos, through the program. And that is, it's a total different approach and it doesn't even really seem fair because it's so much easier than what I was doing. When you can do something that's much easier and get a better result, I mean, that's just like a no-brainer. I would think at some point doing things the hard way would go out of style, but Evidently it never has, never has, but, uh, just, just being able to know what to do and see that there's a different, uh, a different process that's going to get you some good results. And this process is so much easier to follow and be consistent with because it's easy. 80% of my running is done at a much slower pace than what I was doing before. And you get up the next day, you're not sore, you're really not, you're not wore out or beat up from running too hard the day before. So you can go right back to it and run more consistently. And you couple with that, I really tried to improve my nutrition. I've really focused on watching my sleep, getting better sleep, and doing some exercise when it comes to strengthening your core and stuff. I've been a lot more consistent with it. I mean, I think I just hit 55 days of doing my core, working my core every single day. And that's a record.

Like, let's talk through some concrete examples over here because I think that will be very helpful for the people listening. So you're talking about nutrition. Like, I know we can, we can dive into even the diabetes component if you're comfortable sharing some of that.

Sure.

Like, we can talk about some of the core strength that you have been doing on a consistent basis, but let's maybe start out with the nutritional side of things because I think there's a lot of opportunity for people to improve over there and not just in their runs, in training and in racing, but even in their everyday nutrition. I saw a recent post in the Facebook group that you put up that you're using certain app to track and that, that was very helpful. So, so tell me more about that.

Yeah, definitely. Well, I've actually been meeting with a dietitian too. I started that about 6 months ago. And, um, it's funny. I mean, there's, there was this thing that come up on my Instagram feed about you can meet with a dietitian and your insurance will probably cover it. And I said, well, I'd love to meet with a dietitian. So, uh, I went and tried it and found, found this dietitian that just happens to be a 2:34 marathoner. So she's, she's a runner as well. I'm like, this is, this is 34. Wow. So I hooked up with her and, you know, it was what she gave me was exactly what I needed because people can tell you, you know, this is your target macros, this is how many carbs you need, this is how much protein you need, this is how many calories you need. That's great to know that, but What I need supporting that is what the hell am I supposed to eat? I need meals that equate to these targets. You tell me what to eat, I'll eat it. So, and she was really good about doing that. She didn't just tell me the target numbers that I needed to meet my goals. She provided me a meal plan that matched those. I didn't have to worry about adding, adding up any numbers or counting carbs or protein or anything. I basically would just eat what was on the sheet for the day. So that made, made a big difference in the app. I shared in our Facebook group that app will scan about anything with it, food, shampoo, soaps, anything, and it'll tell you if there's dangerous additives and stuff in it. And I use that app a lot. And now I don't put anything on my—

What is the name of the app?

Yuka. And it's a free app, but it shows you all the harmful additives and stuff. And then if you drill down, it'll even tell you what they have been linked to cause. And a lot of them are carcinogenic and poison. I mean, it's crazy. I scan Chocolate Pop-Tarts. I've been feeding those to my kids for years, and they are like a 3 out of 100, uh, as how, how bad they are. They, they probably should have a Surgeon General warning on them. And that, that's— I hope you're not— I know you've got young kids. Mine are grown now, so, uh, but it, it's, it's amazing, uh, the amount of toxins and stuff that are in our food that we didn't realize. I didn't, I certainly didn't realize.

It can be super eye-opening. And what we'll do is we'll make sure to find that app, put a link in the show notes if anyone else wants to check out that app. Like, I, I'm curious about that one too. I'm not familiar with that one.

Yeah.

And there, there's even certain other tracking apps where you can indeed scan the labels and just see the ingredients or like you can add different things up and see what that comes up to on like a daily basis, what the macro breakdown's in. And everything is.

But, alright.

So you started playing around with nutrition that made a positive improvement. What did you end up noticing?

Yeah. And not just nutrition, but I noticed that I feel a lot better when I don't eat poison. I've had more energy and it wasn't just nutrition outside of running, it was fueling nutrition too. Because I was able to really dial in. I haven't got it to where it needs to be. I was still a little bit dehydrated the last marathon I ran, but I was much better. I was consistent with taking gels every 30 minutes, whether I wanted them or not, because being a diabetic, if your blood sugar gets low during a race, and it's happened to me several times, Uh, it's, it's gonna cause a lot of problems and it's really hard to recover from being behind like that and keep while you're running. Uh, it's almost impossible. So being able to stay on top of that consistently, I set a timer on my watch every 30 minutes. I was pulling out of jail and usually I try to coordinate it close to an aid station. So it, it really. Changed the way I felt throughout the run. Instead of usually falling apart, I got to mile 20 and I was like, still doing good. I'm like, I kept— all my previous marathons, I fell apart. I'm like, well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I'm running out of time here. But it never happened. I mean, I finished that marathon. It felt better than I ever had. And it was that it was a PR as well. So, uh, all that really, really makes a difference.

We see it so frequently that often in a race, it's a half marathon, marathon, or beyond. But let's say, let's talk about the marathon in this example, that most people make a mistake with either the pacing, very often going out too fast, like not preserving their energy, like intensity discipline we often talk about, The other part is nutrition. Like, quite a few people underfuel, not taking in fuel on a consistent basis, not having a fueling plan going into a race. I think once you can nail those two things, it reduces the risk by, like, 90%. Like, and, and there's certain, like, sometimes it's hard, right? Like, knowing in advance of a race, like, okay, what marathon shape am I in or what pace can I maintain? But there are certain training runs that you can do to get an rough estimate on if you're able to hold certain paces, if you're able to hold certain intensities, especially in the later stages of a long run or, or during the higher intensity training. So what, what were some of the things that you noticed in your shorter distances as you started to progress in your training? Because it wasn't just the marathons where you start to see, yeah, and progress. How, how did some of these shorter races, because you seem to have a lot of joy in your 5Ks and your 10Ks as well.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this year, I mean, my 5K PR was from 2016. It was like the very first one I ran. I broke it twice this year. But overall, it's incre— I haven't even focused on increasing my 5K speed or 10K speed because I've been training for a marathon. And, you know, I did a half marathon prior to that, but the good thing about this type of training The more data you get, the more predictable you can be. And just from this year alone, it's my second year in the program and I've captured some data, I've shared some of it with you from time to time, and I've gotten to the point where I can almost predict how I should be able to finish a marathon, barring, you know, anything fluky happening. So, and the way that is for me, and it's funny how it works out, it's about 30 seconds per mile slower the longer distance you go. But I can run a 5K at a 7-minute pace. I can run a 10K at 7:30. I can run a half marathon at an 8, and now I know I can run a full at an 8:30. So it's, it's kind of funny how that, how that's worked out, and everybody's different. But at the same time, those are predictable. They give me a lot of confidence because I knew when I ran that half about 6 weeks before the full, and I ran it at an 8-minute pace, and I thought, well, and I felt good at the end of it. I was still, you know, feeling good, and it was a hilly half, so it gave me a lot of confidence going into Richmond. Thinking, I mean, I was really just going for a 9-minute mile to, uh, be, uh, under 4 hours. But, uh, it turns out, you know, I, I ran an 8:30 pace and got, got a much better time.

PR by how many minutes?

Yeah, 30-some minutes. I, I ran 4:16 in Richmond last year, so, and this year it was, uh, 3:43. I started, it was over 30 minutes and I was, I was tickled. I mean, it was kind of cool. I ran up on the 3:45 pacer after mile 20 and I'm like, uh, didn't expect to be seeing you this late in the race. Yeah.

What were those last few miles like? I'm curious to hear because I know you had a hard time at 15. I mean, like, what were those? What did it feel like running those last few miles?

You know, starting that race, I really didn't feel that good. Uh, in fact, I was like in a porta-john 5 minutes before the race. As I come out and they were singing the national anthem, I'm like, oh crap, I gotta get in there. So, uh, I really didn't feel that good when I started that race. But the thing about it is, and the thing that I noticed was, um, even if you don't feel good, I mean, I knew I had to just log a bunch of miles, so I figured let's get started and maybe, maybe things will turn around. But I started kind of reluctantly thinking that this wasn't going to be a good day. But the thing that I noticed is my training had showed up regardless of how I felt, because last year, or yeah, last year when I ran Richmond in 2023, I mean, I didn't have the, the physical ability and I was still recovering from surgery, so I had to depend on a lot of grit to get me to the finish line. But this year it was just the opposite. I mean, it was much easier and I was running much faster and had a much better finish. And I really wasn't even in it, you know, I mean, I wasn't having to use a lot of grit or push myself, but my body was doing what I'd we trained it to do. And that was a bit surprising that it just held up and kept going. And I mean, I was, uh, feeling pretty good. Uh, I mean, everybody's gonna be tired after running 26 miles, but to, I, I wasn't collapsing or anything at the finish line. I was, I was, uh, pretty, uh, pretty stoked. Well, I think I've been smiling ever since.

That's so good. The part that I feel sometimes runners underestimate is, yes, you might feel sometimes going into race day kind of feeling nervous, which is very normal, right? In the days leading up to a race, it's like the race day nerves. You're starting to taper, you wind down your training volume, your intensity comes down a bit, and you start to wonder like, am I going to be in good enough shape? I don't know. And like, there's all that part. I feel a lot of people have a recency bias where you only think of the last few weeks of training, and during that last few weeks of training, you were cutting back your volume. You were running not as much.

Yeah.

Yet when you zoom out, you look back through your Strava, and this is something that I spoke about last week with a different podcast guest, Heidi Moreno. When you look back through your workouts that you've done, not just in the last few weeks, but few months leading up to it, accumulation of gradual progress, gradually putting in the work, that's really what matters. And it really is. I'm the same way. I really am. And sometimes I just catch myself. I'm like, okay, let's actually zoom out here. And it just brings a sense of calm when you really look through, for me, and just going through my Strava and just seeing like, gee, I actually did do quite a few runs and I did go longer and I did this and did that. So Yeah. Zoom out is always a good one there. You mentioned earlier you went after the nutrition, you optimized different things there, and you did 50+ days consistency of core. Talk to me that a little bit more. What do you do on a daily basis?

Yeah. Yeah. I've got a core routine, and I don't do the same exercises twice, 2 days in a row. I basically, have a timer set and I do 15 1-minute exercises with 20 seconds in between. It's like 19 minutes and 44 seconds total. But I've really tried to do that consistently. And now I don't even count that as a workout because it's just a routine now. I'm going to do it. That's one thing you can do no matter where you're at. Traveling in a hotel room, you don't need anything to work your core. It's up your body weight, maybe a floor. And what are those things?

Talk us through what are some of those exercises that you do for a minute?

I've got a setup bench, I've got a machine where you can pull down and pull your core down from the bottom. I've got a thing where you can hang in the doorway and basically do leg raises. I've got, uh, one of those ab rollers. I just got it recently and it's like a torture wheel. It totally is.

That thing hurts.

Yeah, well, I stay on my knees with that. I tried doing— I thought it'd be cool and try to do it from my tiptoes, you know, stretched out, and it just hurts my lower back. So I figured if it's hurting my back probably not doing it right. So if you're on your knees and you spread, you go all the way down and kind of touch your nose on the floor, you're going to get a good core workout. But a combination of things I do, you know, I got some kettlebells, sling around, I use dumbbells, do like a lot of upper, you know, it's grape digging type stuff. But before you know it, it's over quick.. And I know if I've got, if I'm getting ready for work, I know exactly how long it's going to take me to work my core. Because once I start my watch, it's 19 minutes, 44 seconds, I'm going to be done. So that in itself is just pretty easy to fit in anywhere. I mean, you spend that much time.

What time do you normally do it? You do it before work?

Before work. Yeah, I do that first thing. I mean, and I mean, Did it before I ran Richmond. I did it before I ran that half in Durham. So, uh, might should have saved my energy that day, but I figured I'm not going to feel like doing it after Richmond and I'm not going to break my streak. So I might as well get up early and go to the hotel gym.

That's ambitious.

Strength training before your, uh, before your race. That's like, wow.

Much, uh, niche to it.

Yeah, there you go.

I don't want to break my streak.

I do really like the part of, like, getting the consistency in and not overthinking it, not making it, like, just making it part of your routine, like you're doing toothbrushing teeth, brushing your teeth. Yeah. Like, it's, it's one of those. And if you make this part of your day, it's a non-negotiable. So what advice do you have for people wanting to implement consistency and strength training in their life?

They really just have to make time for it. You have to clear out, you have to make space for it. And it's something as simple as 19 minutes. That's pretty easy to fit in a morning routine. I mean, most people, I mean, I'll sit around and drink coffee for 30 minutes and browse on my phone and stuff. I mean, for me, it's pretty easy to carve out that 19 minutes. And I think you've just got to make space for it so that you have time to do it. I mean, you've got a space there to do it. And it makes things easier because if you, if you don't allocate some space for it, it's going to fill up with something else. So I know every morning when I get up, I'm working my core, you know, I get up, have some coffee and Usually after that, I can work my core. So it's just part of my routine now and I plan to keep it like that. And it gets me active, gets me moving, gets my blood flowing and all on. And so you feel better after you do something even if it's small.

And that's really well said. And I feel even some people might be listening thinking, gee, 19 minutes a day, that's quite a bit. That's too much for me at this point. And even there, if you start out 1 minute here, 1 minute there, right? Dr. Rangan spoke about it recently. Even if you're making a coffee in the morning, you're able to do like 10 lunges or 10 calf raise or 10 push-ups or whatever that may be. Over time, that's gonna start adding up. And for some people, that might be 19 minutes or 10 minutes continuously at the same time in the morning. For some people, it might be sprinkling it in throughout the day., but at least making it easy, accessible to do and not overthinking it. We don't have to drive to the gym for an hour-long strength training session. All these little bits, even though in the moment you don't see it making much of a difference, but, like, to be an overall healthier, stronger athlete, it, it really does make a difference. What, was your first experience like with low heart rate training? Because you were training before at a rather high heart rate, and then all of a sudden you decided to train with low intensity. I would like to hear about how that was for you and what you've learned through that and any advice to other people going through that stage.

Yeah. It was a challenge at first. Like most everybody I hear in our program, you might be surprised at the level of fitness that you're really at because that's a tough pill to swallow when you go out and you try to run in zone 2 and you can't without having to walk and you're thinking, damn, I thought I was in better shape than that. So it's kind of a bit of a challenge to grasp at first. But then you see people, and we talk to people on the Zoom calls, that started out the exact same way. They all had to, most everyone, if they don't go all the way down to walking, they certainly slow down considerably. When you try to stay in zone 2, it's a challenge to not, not get discouraged, uh, when you're, when you're starting out. But I can tell you with some certainty, if you stick to it, it will work and it will come around. And, uh, you know, I made some big strides, uh, just this past fall where I thought wasn't even going to be achievable this year. So if you stick with it and just keep being consistent. And it's easy to do. Like I said, it's much— it's the easiest plan I've ever tried to stick with. And that's why I've been able to stick with it, because it's easy. It's often too hard for you to have any longevity with. It's only temporary. And I was really looking for, something that I could continue. I'm 51 now. I was looking for something that I could continue to do until I'm 71, 81, something that would age with me because a lot of the stuff is just too intense and it's, you're not going to be able to maintain it as you age. But this program, I think, uh, is, I mean, you've got members in there that are 20 30 years older than I am that are, that are still active and still, uh, following the program and, and are doing quite well.

So I'm looking forward to that. I like that goal in like very much as in like wanting to run very healthy and well into my 70s, 80s. Like, um, Maria, she was one of the Podcast guest from several episodes ago, and she has a website marathonat80.com. That's awesome. That's a long one. And her goal is to qualify for the Boston Marathon. She's a very strong runner and she's a backpacker as well. And she's like, I'm not qualified for Boston now, but I want to run healthy and strong and qualify at 80. And I love that. I really think we should aim for being a strong, healthy athlete for many years to come instead of so short-term thinking of in 6 months, I wanna accomplish this. Yes, it's great to have short-term goals. For some people, 6 months might actually be long-term, but also having some bigger picture, longer-term goals is a big one. How do you calculate your training heart rate? You said you're 51 years old. How have you gone about deciding what is the right heart rate for you? How have you seen that number change over time, the perception of pace?

Talk to me a little bit more about that. Yeah. Well, I was always a bit uncertain about my heart rate because I trained with Greg, my friend that's also a PB member, and we're both 51, and our heart rates are about 10 beats apart. And we're running the same, we're running side by side, chit-chatting. We both feel like we're in zone 2. Well, we probably are both in zone 2, but if we are, then we can't use the exact same formula. And you kind of reiterate that a lot. This formula doesn't work for everyone. And one of your suggestions was you can go to a lab and have some metabolic testing done, and they test you, your lactate threshold. Dial into your specific zones. And I think that was, that was a great call, and I'm super glad I did that because it did determine that my, my zones were about 10 beats higher than, than what Greg's fit the, the math formula quite well. But mine was about 10 beats higher, uh, based on the, my metabolic testing that we did to determine my lactate threshold and, you know, go backwards from there. So that has, gave me a bit more confidence that I'm training in the right zone and it's, it's easy to do. I mean, I wear a heart rate strap. I just got some cool, some really cool glasses, Ingo, it's the ones that show the heart rate and everything up here in your peripheral vision. That is awesome. They are great. They are great. I even wore them on my treadmill this morning downstairs.

Is that synced to your heart rate monitor or is it separate? Yeah.

No, it's synced to your heart rate monitor. I think it's synced to your Garmin and from there it's synced to your heart rate monitor. So, but it's great. It's got like 3 or 4 different displays and I mean, I've used them, I've got them about 2 weeks ago. So I've run them, I've worn them during that 5K. I could see my heart. I just put a big timer up on the 5K because I wasn't that interested in seeing my heart rate. But you pick and choose the data fields that you want up there and they are really awesome.

Does it show pace as well?

Does it only like, are you at? It shows pace, elevation. There's about 20 different data fields that you can choose from. And I mean, I used to have like pace, cadence, my heart rate, okay, at the top of everything. And then it's got, you know, the amount of time that you've been out there and distance and all the basic data fields. And there's about 4 different dashboards. And the way you get to the next one is just swipe over. And so you can set like, 5 data fields for the first dashboard and then maybe some more, a bit more random stuff on some of the others.

But really, I've heard a few people talk about it. I've never ran with them, but it sounds interesting if you don't really have to look down at your watch and you can see in front of you. On the other hand, I wonder if it becomes overwhelming too. Sometimes I just want to run and I don't want to look at anything.

I'm going to show you. And they're not as big as the first version was really big, but these are almost normal size and I'm warm and I'm, I'm, I'm sweating and all kinds of stuff. And still, I mean, I haven't had any problems at all. Like, they, they tend to work great. There you go. Good. I was gonna share that on my next Zoom call that I got on.

Like, yeah, I definitely wanna look into that one more. And if you can, After the call, shoot me over a link to the one that you have. We'll put it in the show notes as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You bet.

You bet. Let's talk through that one a little bit more because I think this is a, a good topic. So you were using initially 180 minus age, 51, and that gave you a Maff heart rate number. And then you went to the lab, you identified, hey, your actual training heart rate number can be, can be higher based on lactate testing. And they, poke your blood every few minutes. And based on that, they look what is your minimal with your lactate buildup, 2.0, 4.0, and they basically identify with that what your true heart rate can be aerobically still. So, the interesting part is, and this is why I think eventually indeed doing a test at a lab for people can be helpful, can be eye-opening. And, and we see some people that come back with the exact same numbers. When I did my tests, 180 minus age was exact same number as what came out of a lab. And I've seen it for other people too, like with you, where there was a 10B difference. I've seen the difference even being bigger. I've sometimes seen it being smaller. There's a few different things I like about the lab tests, and there are a few different things I like about the MEF formula. Meaning with a math formula, it does take certain things into account that a lab test does not necessarily take into account. Meaning if you're coming back from an injury, you deduct some beats and you basically train at a lower intensity for a little bit until your body, like, yeah, of course, you gotta do strength, you gotta do mobility, you gotta do rehab and all that. But at least easing back into training from an intensity standpoint versus doing everything at the highest number possible aerobically. That there's something to be said about that. Or if you're improving in your racing to actually use a slightly higher number than when you're, like, getting sick and cold and all those all the time. I love that. I think there's something holistic about that part. That being said, it is a standardized number which works reasonably well for quite a few people. But then for athletes with a higher max heart rate, for athletes like in the 50s, 60s, 70s, we definitely see some of that further personalization coming into place. Same with some athletes who indeed might be in their 60s who even when they do a +5 or a +10, it might not work. And so getting that further dialed into a medical lab, I absolutely think that there's a time and place for it. The main thing is I think there's a lot of people who just start out with running or just starting out with low-intensity running or with low heart rate training. For them to go to a medical lab, they simply wouldn't do it. So with that, I think the 180 H formula is a good ballpark number to just start out with slowing down. And, and so there's, there's that part. I have also seen the medical lab can be inaccurate too. I've literally been sent home from a medical lab to come back again because my data was off. I had slept poorly, I had eaten too close to the time of the lab test.. And so we can't take that number as 100% every day, every time it's true either. Like, yes, of course, once you start doing multiple tests, we'll start to get a good idea of, like, where things are at. And so I see some of these things of determining your right heart rate training zone, it takes some experimentation. And, like, yes, you can do the math, 180 formula. You can use one of the zone 2 calculators that takes resting heart rate into account and max heart rate. You can Even there, some people don't know what a true accurate max heart rate is because it's not easy to get there. You really have to go quite all out and get there, and some injury-prone athletes might have a really hard time with that, and we don't want them to be running at a max heart rate. You can go to a medical test. I think one of the, the other ones we talk about is the talk test where you go out, you warm up for 15 minutes, and then you just have a conversational pace and you look what is your heart rate at that point. And so there are different ways and eventually you will find a way to feel what's right for you. And like when you're training 3 hours a week, you can get away with a higher heart rate number even at your low intensity than when you're training 10 or 12 or 14 hours a week. Even then, you might have to dial it back to a lower number than your max, like of the zone 2. So there, there's a lot of different variables that come into play there as well. So for those working and training and having all sorts of other commitments, it's a bit of a puzzle. How do you balance it all? How do you go about it? When do you— you just said earlier you're getting your strength training in in the morning before work. What about your runs? How do you go about balancing it all?

How do you— what's your approach here? I try to fit it in, but I don't necessarily I'm not always successful fitting it in. So sometimes I just have to fit it around something else. I mean, I've got a family, I've got, I work full-time. So I've got a lot of other commitments. Sometimes I travel for work, but I try to stay as consistent as I can, but not necessarily be that rigid. And it's not as, it might not be as much as you think. I mean, I looked at my Strava for this past year and I think I ran 1,500 miles. And that's about 30 miles a week. And if you pull a, you know, 10-plus-mile long run out of that, you're not running a lot, you know, unless, and I'm getting pretty good results by doing that. So unless you come and tell me, hey, you need to be running 60 miles a week if you wanna qualify for Boston. I mean, I, I'm getting pretty good results not killing myself. I, I've got friends, some of 'em, they run 50, 60 miles a week, and I'm thinking to myself, well, I'm getting the results I want, um, not running nowhere nearly that much. So, uh, I, I try to make it enjoyable and the, the neat thing about Zone 2 running is the runs aren't hard to begin with, so you don't dread going on an easy run, or at least I don't. If you get done with a Zone 2 run and you feel like it was hard, then you did something wrong. You probably weren't in Zone 2. So it, it's really easy to kind of fit that stuff in, and you, you really just have to find the right balance. I mean, I don't miss work, I don't miss any family events because I'm a stickler, sticking to your marathon training plan. I try to stick to it as good as I could, but it didn't always work out. And I was okay with that. I mean, I knew as long as I was consistent and didn't miss out a week, you know, go a week without running, I wasn't going to lose what I'd already had. And at some point you've, you've pretty much got what you're gonna show up with.

So, um, just try to be flexible with it. I feel you made a great point there though. 30 miles a week. So whatever that is, about 50K a week for some people feels like a lot. For some people that feels like about the average training volume. For some people that feels very low. It's eye-opening to me how this is. Notion. Sometimes people think you have to run X amount of training volume in order to improve or it's not gonna work. That's way different for everyone. It's more you showing up consistently. Like, yes, you ran 1,500 miles, but you, in the year, but you ran fairly consistent. You didn't have gaps because you were way injured. Like, you were able to show up, do consistent, like, low-intensity running, high-intensity running. You were able to sprinkle in several races throughout the year. Like, you had your, Yeah, some weeks you had your recovery weeks and some weeks you had your peak weeks, but at least you're able to go through these cycles and keep building on top of each other. And I feel I see it too many times, whatever, 60%, 70% of runners get injured every year. And so, yes, I see plenty of people, they are able to run 50, 60 miles a week and then they're injured for 3 weeks and then they have to start all over again. Right? It's like, what good did that 60— that's with everything. I think that's with training volume. That's with saving money. Yeah, you can save a lot of money this one week, but, and then you're not saving anything the following week. It's like the gradual small steps. It sounds like we're repeating it so often, but it really comes into play.

So yeah. And just to build on that, one of the other things that I've did this year and that Greg and myself have did this year, we've did races where we didn't have any goals. I had one goal race this year and that was Richmond. And the previous years when I was running, anytime I got in a 5K or a 10K or a half, I was gonna run as hard as I possibly could to try to get the best time I possibly could. I never had fun in a race. And this year we made, you know, we were intentional about it. We went down to Charleston, South Carolina for the Cooper River Bridge Run. I realized we're going down there to have fun. And we went down there, got a hotel room, we got up, ran the race, 32,000 people, helicopters flying over, and we were running up the bridge backwards taking pictures of each other. And we, we had a, we had an awesome time. And then we followed that up with, uh, the half marathon up in, up Blue Ridge Mountains. It's like America's toughest road marathon. We went up there to have fun, so we, we put Iceman and Maverick on our bibs. I got us dog tags made. We went shirtless, put our Ray-Bans on. We're Top Gun jockeys. So at the end of that half marathon, we were doing push-ups right there at the finish line. But we had a blast. I was running with a friend of ours that was coming up back off an injury, and he was just up there to, you know, have fun, hit all the drink stops. And we were stopping with him. I didn't care about our time. So, uh, that's— I've seen that as something that, uh, well, it was a mistake. And this year we changed it. We had several runs, races where we didn't care where we finished. We were just down there gonna, gonna have fun. If we needed to stop, we'd stop. And, uh, I had one goal race this year and it was Richmond. Um, And that's probably the only— well, I got a couple next year, but I'm gonna be sure to get some races in that I don't have any goals for, where we can just get out there and enjoy the—

Well, yeah, your goal right there is to enjoy the experience, and I think that's a good goal to have already. Sometimes we talk about, let's make it a goal to get to the start and finish line healthy, alive, and well. Yeah. And versus up in the medical tent or injured at the start line or overturned.

Right.

Yeah. It's not just the race they experience, it's the whole training cycle leading up to it. That's such an important part of it too. So the good thing is I notice you have a lot of joy in training and in racing, but sometimes even right now we're recording this and it's winter. Some of the days are dark. Days are colder, it's not always that easy to get out the door. It's not always that— I know we're going through training cycles with ups and downs. So, how do you deal with sometimes being a bit challenged with motivation? Or do you have any advice for people who have a tough time getting out of the door in some of these days?

Yeah. I would say you have to just maintain control of your own happiness. And what I mean by that is running makes me happy, but it doesn't control my happiness. If I couldn't run anymore tomorrow, I've still got to find a way to be happy. So I think happiness comes from within. And anytime you have setbacks, you just have to understand that those are part of life, but life goes on and you can't really dwell on it too much. Or I compare it to like somebody on a float, you know, out on a beach and say the shore is happiness and you've got to be careful because if not, the tide will start drifting away from the shore and you'll get to a point where you can't even get back. You can't get back without some help. And it's important to recognize that and stop that drift. If you've got something that is controlling your happiness, and it's even if running, if I can't handle, you know, running through some dark times, then I'm kind of dependent on, I've became dependent on running. And, you know, I struggled with addiction a couple of years ago, and it was an area in my life where, I realized coming out of that, I was letting that stuff control whether I was going to be happy or not. And once I kind of seen that, I said, well, never again. And not only is that not going to control whether I'm happy or not, nothing else is either. Uh, because I firmly believe that your happiness comes from within and you can, you can still be happy in some pretty bad circumstances as long as you've got the mindset for it. And that's easier said than done sometimes. It really is. You can't just, you know, say screw it to everything. You're going to get upset, but like I said, you just got to catch yourself and stop that drift before you get too far and you look at something and say, okay, um, how important is that really? Am I going to let it ruin my complete— my whole day, my whole week, my whole year? Or am I going to say, that's not going to control my happiness, and I'm going to continue on and stay, stay over here kind of in the center lane? So it's an approach that, that I try to, uh, strive for, and so far it's, it's been working pretty good.

I mean, yeah, it's a work in progress. How we respond to some of these challenges, how we respond to some of these situations is really what determines a lot of the outcome and our mindset in that, even when it's a day you don't feel like going out the door, when it's a moment in a race that you feel things are all falling apart and they're not working. Yeah, trying to stay calm, zooming out, one step at a time. I've had it a few times in recent years where something happened and it's so hard to see in the moment that it's actually, it happened for a reason. And in the moment you're like, what? Like, it seems like a very negative experience, yet it was one of the best things that could have and because it put you on a different trajectory or made you slow down or in whatever way, shape, or form that is. I've had it where I've had some pretty bad migraines, like headaches, and those are purely signs from the body telling you to slow down, like something is off. You got up to that, it's almost like a control delete button on your computer that tells you like, hey, something is not right, like chill out. I've had it where I was on a run where my appendix went out, something like, and this was a few years ago, but I had to go to the hospital and it was very tough at that moment, yet it made me slow down in some parts of my life that I really had to take a hard look internally and externally. What was I doing? What was going right? What was not going right? It's crazy how something medically or something like emergency or whatever makes us all of a sudden come to that realization. It's fascinating sometimes. Can we talk a little bit about your diabetes more? Because I think that might be helpful for some people. And what, first of all, tell me type 1 or type 2 diabetes and how long. Type 1. And, and like, tell me more about your experiences with it and how you deal with it, uh, on your runs.

Well, generally when I'm running, I don't need a lot. And by the way, I'm type 1, and if anyone doesn't know the difference, type 1 is kind of insulin dependent, so pancreas doesn't work. Um, most type 1s wear a pump, or either they give themselves injections. I wear a pump, you can see it right there. It's a tubeless pump, it's probably the only pump I could ever wear because I can't be tethered this time. But nonetheless, it's something that with today's technology, it's gotten much easier because— and I see even some runners wearing CGMs, continuous glucose monitors, because they want to see how what they eat impacts their— impact their sugar levels so that they can maybe have a more balanced diet. So that's interesting. And I'm always looking to find some advantage. And I'm thinking to myself, I hear about ketones and I'm thinking, you know, I think the way ketones are produced for is when you have low insulin levels. And I'm thinking, well, I've got a mechanical pancreas. I can make my insulin levels as low as I want. Does this mean I can create my own ketones? But at the same time, there's ketoacidosis that you can, you can die from. So it's not anything I've played with yet, but I did think I would ask my endocrinologist about it in my next visit. Looking for any advantage I can get. But you just have to be careful. It's no excuse not to, not to be fit. In fact, it's a good motivation to be fit. Because— and not just diabetes, any disease or anything that you have that is, you know, a misfortune or is going to cause you some health problems— is, is going to be better the better shape you're in, regardless of what it is, because you're going to be able to get stronger treatment, you're going to be able to hold up better. So I think being fit is kind of, kind of trumps everything. I don't know of any reason if there's someone type 1 or type 2 diabetic that they shouldn't be able to be in a program like this or run, you know, but everybody knows their own capabilities and they have their own doctors. But for me, it hasn't been a problem. I think I never feel sorry for myself for having diabetes because most kids get the type of diabetes that I have. It's called juvenile diabetes for a long time. And I'm thinking, well, I'm a grown-ass man. I'm a grown-ass man. These little kids, you know, I feel sorry for the kids. They don't even know what's going on. So I just, it's something you have to manage. And I've had it for over 10 years now. So I've gotten to the point to the point where I kind of know what to do. I turn my pump off when I'm running. I don't need any insulin. If I've got insulin on board, I'm likely gonna go low. I always try to carry a gel with me. Sometimes I don't, and all my running friends get mad at me if I don't have something, because they know. But nonetheless, it's manageable, and I'm not gonna let it stop me I mean, you know my goals.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I do want to be respectful of your time. There's quite a few people listening to this podcast that are looking to become a stronger, healthier, happier athlete. Do you have any closing thoughts? Anything you would like to recommend?

Anything you would like to end this conversation? I would just say if you're starting out, Um, do, do some research. I mean, like I told you before, I started running, ran my first 5K in 2016, and I didn't do any research. I didn't, I made my first few years of running quite miserable, uh, at, at, at best, and didn't get any good outcomes. And if I would've did a little bit of research, maybe meet a Matt a lot sooner. Because now that I've got a run coach and I'm in a program, I've learned so much. The, the last year, it's just making, you know, leaps and bounds of difference in how I can perform and, and how I feel. And like I said before, it's, it's something that I think will age well with, with us, and it's something— it's, it's a lifestyle change. If you're looking for a diet program, this isn't it. But if you're looking to change your lifestyle and do something that's sustainable, I think you need to give something like this a try. If it's not in your program, definitely educate yourself because that is key. I try to watch YouTube videos about it every morning while I'm having my coffee. Just an example, I was watching a David Roche video the other day and he was talking about baking soda. I'm texting Greg, I'm like, baking soda, what the hell is this for endurance athletes? Next thing I know, we both got some baking soda, we're putting it in our protein. But it's something we're going to investigate and look into. And if it does actually, you know, push back your lactate a little bit, and there might be some advantages there. But I would say keep learning, educate yourself. I get on your Zoom calls probably not often enough, but every time I do, I learn something. Last time I was on one, you were talking about how much the saunas really benefit your body. And when it comes to recovery and I was thinking, well, I've got access to some saunas, but I haven't taken the time to get up to the gym. But stuff like that, you're just always learning. So I'm going to incorporate that into my next year training block and hopefully just continue to grow and get better.

Yeah. And that's the exciting part too. I think there's a lot of free resources available online too. Yeah.. And there's different paid resources available. There's individual coaching available. Just going to a training block and going to a race knowing that there are a lot of different things that go into this. It's not just putting on your shoes and running as hard as you can. There's definitely a bit of thought that goes into it. And even if you cover the basic fundamentals and you, yeah, you have an open mind and you're excited to experiment with some different things, like, you might be surprising yourself throughout the process. Of that. So, yeah, it's been really awesome to see the progress that you have made. And I know, like, even now, you ran a half an hour, more than a half an hour personal best in your race. I know you have many more personal bests in you. It's just once again what we were talking about earlier. Let's zoom out the time horizon. Let's go through some more of these training cycles, keep building on top of each other.

But you're doing a fantastic job, man. Keep doing what you're doing. Well, thank you, and I really appreciate the support. I mean, it was last year, last November, not long after Richmond, that Greg and I, we were out on a training run on the New River Trail, and we decided that we were going to have this goal to both qualify for Boston in the next 5 years. So I get home and I text that to you on Instagram or something, and you're like, heck yeah, let's do this. And that's, uh, That's encouraging. It's like once you know it's possible and you've got the support, reconfirming that it's possible, it's like, all right, we're going to do it. Absolutely. So that's great. And no, I don't think you charge enough for your program. I've had bar tabs more than the cost of your lifetime membership. So for the value that I've gotten, I just feel like I'm ripping you off every time I get on a Zoom call.

It's for me, it's really about the joy that they were able to bring. And I think one point, it is far removed from me that it's not just me there answering questions. I think it's the community that's all helping each other out. And that's, that's becomes my, like, I think the community learning component, like, yeah, of course, myself and other personal best coaches are active in there, but I think the whole part of people telling each other. And just like we've talked about on other podcasts, surrounding yourself with a local running group or surrounding yourself with the right type of people that lift each other up, that speak the same language, that can think like you, that can encourage you and check in with each other.

I think those things go a long way. Yeah. I mean, you've got to find people that's got some positive energy. And if you're going out with people that you come back from your run, you feel stressed out, that's bad. I mean, I've got people I run with and they're great. They're complete running badasses. And I'm just like, I'm going to hang out with you guys because I feel better after I go run with you. And that's just in the local community. I mean, online, you've got access to unlimited running badasses that you can leverage from. So I think I mentioned it earlier, we don't have to do things the hard way anymore. So it's really about just, it's don't, don't be stupid and do some research. And these people have already, I mean, if I did that, I would probably be 5 or 6 years ahead now because I wouldn't have struggled all these years, but it was a stupid decision not to, but you live and learn and maybe one day.

Awkward doing tanks the hard way. Exactly. Well, I look forward to going for a run with you at some point, wherever that's going to be, whether you're going to be on the East Coast or at one of the, one of the bigger races.

We'll connect again soon. So sounds, sounds good. If you get anywhere over on the East Coast, just let Greg and I know and we'll, we'll try to hook up for sure.

Awesome, Daniel. Thanks so much.

Appreciate it.

We'll talk more soon again.

You bet.

Thanks so much for listening or for watching. What was your favorite lesson, takeaway, or quote from this episode? Would love to hear it from you in the comments on YouTube.

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Uh, that was about it.

Have fun out there on your runs.

See you at the next one.

Bye now.