#97: Taylor Knibb's Advice To Improve Your Running, Cycling and Swimming

Whatever you're trying to do athletically, like, pick something that you enjoy. You might not love it at first. When sometimes people will tell me like, "Oh, I don't run. I don't like running." I'm like, "Well, if I take a 2-week break from running, I might not love it the first day or week or month back." In a world where it's sometimes tough to be optimistic, racing teaches you to be optimistic. Regardless of how it's going, if you still have that hope of like, it can turn around. That's like where I feel like almost most alive. In the past year, I feel like I've been liberated. I didn't feel trapped before, but I feel liberated now. So the only cue I've ever gotten from my coach to run is smile. If you want it to be hard, you can make it hard. I think there's like a level of curiosity. I want to see how good I can be. And if the races are stepping stones and just opportunities in which you can express yourself and express your potential, the next day, like your goal and your purpose isn't gone.

Knowing what you know now, what advice do you have to your younger self? Hello there, I got a quick favor to ask you. My YouTube channel is currently at about 99,000 subscribers. I would love your help getting to 100K. If you have not subscribed yet, it would mean the world to me if you can hit the like and subscribe button on this video. It really helps get this video in front of more viewers and also get more additional awesome guests on the podcast. So thank you for your help there. Today's guest is professional triathlete Taylor Knipp. She is redefining what is possible in endurance sports. At just 26 years old, she's a 3-time consecutive Women's Ironman 70.3 World Champion. She is also an Olympic silver medalist, and she is ranked PTO number 1 in the world. We'll dive into Taylor's training strategies, how she works together with movement specialist Laurens van Lingen, and also advice for recreational athletes looking to improve. Thanks to LMNT for sponsoring this episode. If you've been following along, you know how much I value proper hydration. Not just any hydration, but getting it right. That's why I'm excited to tell you about LMNT, my absolute go-to electrolyte drink. What makes LMNT different? It is a science-backed ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium, exactly what your body needs, with no sugars, no fillers, just pure electrolytes. Right now, Element is offering Extramile listeners a special deal. Get a free sample pack with any order at drinkelement.com/flow. That is 8 single-size serving packages to try all their different flavors. Don't let electrolyte deficiency limit your potential. Head to drinkelement.com/flow so that you can fuel your runs the right way, risk-free. Hope you enjoy my episode with Taylor Knipp. We have a very special mutual friend over here, Laurens van Lingen.

Yes.

And he was so kind to let us record this conversation at his house. He has made a massive positive difference in my life, and I know he has made a positive difference in your life as well. Can you tell me a bit more about what were some of the reasons you started working with him and what were some of the things that you noticed?

Well, I actually remember my strength coach put us in contact. It was April of 2022 and I wasn't really sleeping and I was kind of a mess. And she said, Taylor, there's this person I want you to meet. And she's like, just think of it as a first date. Like you remember that? And she's like, just like see what you think. But I think he could be a really important part of your team. And so I'm like, okay, Erin, like great. Like I'd love to. I'll try it out. Like, I'll go and I'll meet him. And what I remember most was, I don't remember what he said or what he did in the session, but I remember driving back 'cause it was at Rally Sport, which was in Boulder. And I remember driving home and I felt the most calm I had felt in months. And I was like, wow. Yeah. So of course, like when you feel that kind of like calmness and peace, it's a very positive feeling. And so every other time we'd come to Boulder, it would, if he sent out the email that he's coming to Boulder, I'd get so excited and I'd sign up if I, if there's room. And then he moved to Boulder and I got to work with him and learn from him. And it's grown from there.

I absolutely recognize that feeling driving back from a Lauren session. I would feel really tired sometimes. I would feel like I could Nap forever or sleep forever author.

Well, actually what's funny is, so just Monday or maybe last Friday, I was driving up Sunshine Canyon and you kind of, you think of like Pavlov's dogs and they salivate before the food. I was driving up to a session with him and I was like, just like getting really relaxed and calm and at peace. And I was like, Wow, I've been conditioned. It's not the work. It is though, don't worry.

So it was the bell that was ringing and all of a sudden the symptoms, like, yeah.

Yeah, because I associate Sunshine Canyon with just like feeling calm afterwards. So now it comes like I could just enter the canyon and all good.

That is amazing. So Lawrence Völlingen, movement specialist, but so much more than that. Tell me a bit more. What, in what sort of ways did he work with you? What did you end up, like sleep is one of the things that you ended up noticing. What were some of the other things that you worked on and that you noticed?

Well, I hope it's still work. I hope it's still current tense. We've worked on a lot, probably too much, and there's probably still a lot to go. A lot has been with the nervous system and I hope I'm gonna get most of what we've worked on correctly and moving and trusting my body and just learning how to run better, but also I guess live better.

So then there's the flow rope, there's the backwards walking, there's the tire pull. Floris is a big fan of that. I'm a big fan of that and I see you doing this quite often as well. Tell me about your first experiences with that and what changes did you notice?

I'll go through each. 'Cause the flow rope, I don't probably have a relationship with. All I remember was we got the flow ropes and I'd just gotten surgery and I was just cleared from crutches and I could walk without pain when I was swinging the rope. But when I walked without the rope, I was like, my foot hurt. So it was like this weird thing. Like that's like kind of, the furthest I went down with the flow rougher. I have to add it in for more things, but I love my tire. I don't really love pulling the tire indoors because I actually, I have a loop that I love and I'm known where I live. I live in an apartment complex as the person who pulls the tire. Like people will say like, oh, I knew you were in the fitness center because your tire was out. Cause I pull my tire. I leave my tire out. In front of the fitness center and I go walk backwards and then I go out with the tire. So I enjoy it. I think it's become more of a ritual than anything else. And then the backwards walking relaxes me and I thoroughly enjoy that.

For those who are unfamiliar with tire pulls, tell me a bit more how you go about this and what you notice in the body.

Well, I'm always not sure if I'm doing it correctly. I think I do it a little quickly and But like, I think I notice more, it's more when I haven't been doing it well, I notice it versus now it's become just normal. And so I'm still working on my execution of the tire pull though.

So it's basically you have a rope around your waist.

Yes. Which the rope has to be long because my mom made a tire and I was visiting her and I was like, this is wrong. That's not wrong. That's hard. But it was like, the rope has to be like I'm picky about the rope. I'm picky about how long it is because it, it changes the feel of the tire if the rope isn't long enough. And so then, and then you have a tire which can vary in size and weight. Um, and you put it around your waist and you pull it, but you have to walk specifically and there's a lot of ways you can do it wrong.

So really trying to activate the posterior chain, trying to walk with an open chest.

Yes, and heels on the ground.

Heels on the ground. What you were saying about the apartment complex and some people probably giving you a strange look, when I was running the Tokyo Marathon last year, I really liked the tire pull as well, but I didn't bring a tire to Tokyo.

You don't fly with it.

So I was in the hotel before my race, having the flow rope tied to my waist with a shirt attached to it, and then behind that I had a suitcase that I was using as a tire to pull through the hotel. And the looks that I was getting from people over there was like, what are you doing? But I promise you it made a positive impact there.

Well, I should show you my travel rope because you can do it on a treadmill, but you might get yelled at. I was yelled at in Italy because you have to attach the— you have to mount the rope somewhere if you're going to walk on the treadmill. And they were worried that someone would trip over it. And I'm like, OK, good. Language barriers are an issue, but— Yes, it's great to like, especially after flying, you just want to reset your body.

Yeah. So I have a running coaching program and sometimes the, like a lot of the people are fascinated by Lawrence and by the backwards walk and then the flow rope and the tire pull. And one question that sometimes comes up and I'm kind of curious to hear your thoughts on this is, okay, so for example, this backwards walking, is that, that I do this for a few weeks and then I'm done with it and I don't have to do it again. Or do you do this continuously? And so I want to hear how you implement that. Was that just at the beginning, or are you still implementing on a daily basis?

Was this question pointed given a conversation I had with Laurence yesterday?

It was not, but—

I asked him, like, when we start, like, trimming things down and cutting things down, because I have the impression that I'm supposed to do it every day, and I probably do it 5 days a week, but, like, And maybe less, but you could check my TrainingPeaks. It's, it's all there cuz if I don't measure it, I don't do it. And like, I'm not as accountable. Um, so I keep it up and I think it's especially after flying and travel, it's useful.

I've personally found it to be quite calming even after a busy day, as in like going, going barefoot or sometimes with shoes on too and just walking backwards for a few minutes. It's been such a calming effect on the body and on the mind.

Oh, entirely. It's, yes. And it's good to do at the end of the day. It's harder to do at the beginning of the day, I find.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about, how has your running form changed over the years?

I can't pinpoint it cuz like I'm still me. I just run, I guess. But last year I started getting compliments on my run form. Never got that before. I think, cause I was kind of just like sideways falling apart always. Um, But I'm told I'm more stacked now. So my joints stack on top of each other, but it's still a work in progress. So I don't know like all the changes that have come about.

Has there been a change in confidence in running as well for you?

In running? Yes, I would say probably greater in life, which is strange to say.

Please tell me more. I want to hear more about this.

It's, I don't know. I feel like in the past 6 months especially, I've just gotten like super assertive. And I would say assertive over aggressive, but like it sometimes feels aggressive. And I don't know if it's the way I was raised or like, as, and I don't want to like play the gender card, but like as a woman, like people don't always love when you stand your ground and you hold your ground. And so it kind of feels a bit aggressive sometimes, but like I'm kind of learning that I have to sometimes stand up for myself, but not too much. I'm maybe going a little overboard. I'll learn by going over the line and then pull back over the line.

I love the honesty though. We were talking earlier about like some of the things that you might have become a bit more direct with over time. And I think that's living true to yourself, like being authentic. And I think that's such an important part of this as well.

Yes. As long as like your authentic self, I guess, is a self that you like. Because it was funny, someone asked me today, like, do you have too much kindness? I was like, oh, none of my friends would describe me as kind. Like I aspire to be kind, but I don't think I have that trait yet. So if your authentic self is just like really mean and nasty and negative, is it, is it really good to live your authentic self? I'm not saying that I'm a mean, nasty, negative person some days, but like the authenticity I guess is like, has to have some light in it.

So I want to talk about your, your changes in training approach over the years because last year you got a new coach, Don.

Yes.

You've worked very closely with him. Obviously you had an incredible last, last year and you're, you're on an absolute tear, which is really awesome to see and to follow along from the sidelines. Also looking at how you used to train, it seemed like you were quite wrecked sometimes, as in even some of the things that you describe about your training. And now it seems like the training volume or the training time seems to be the same. It just seems like there's been a change in the way it's structured. It seems a bit more holistic. Tell me more about some of the changes that you have noticed throughout your training and how that's even impacting your racing.

Well, first off, have you gotten any suggestions to have my coach on your podcast yet?

Uh, I, I would love to have a conversation with him.

Well, I could be the first one and then after 5 you might listen. We've learned it takes 5 people, but I would highly suggest you have him on the podcast. He's just a very interesting human in terms of how he goes about his life and how he the way he structures things. And I feel like the greatest thing, like I've learned so much from him about how to live life. And he just like, I don't know how he has it all figured out. I know he doesn't have everything figured out 'cause he is human and that's part of the great part of him. But everything I do is very purposeful. And so like if I need to do something, I do it. And if I don't, I don't. And I would say before it was more of like a scattered approach, which you can throw volume at an athlete they'll respond, I guess. But after a while that just like gets, it builds up in fatigue and you just don't know. And so now I think my training is very specific and it's, it's liberating in a lot of ways. And so I think it takes a lot less mental energy cuz I know why I'm doing something and it's not to test me. It's not to show that I'm resilient. It's like we wanna stimulus and ideally like the least stress possible. I think Don has given me one run cue ever, and it was one morning and I was on the treadmill and my strength coach was at the same place I was and she took a video and sent it in the group and he's like, tell Taylor to smile, smile relaxes her. And so the only cue I've ever gotten from my coach to run is smile. So I think that, that just epitomizes Dan as a person.

It is so fascinating, right? Like when you can, smile, where you can run relaxed, it just makes everything easier. Even in the harder parts of a race, it seems.

If you want it to be hard, you can make it hard. But like, I think there's like a level of curiosity, which is like, how good can I be? And Dan's curious in that. And so it's like, how can you, and this would be more Laurence's terms, like just express your potential and that's the goal. And so how do you get there? And there are a number of different ways, but like making everything hard all the time isn't gonna get you there. I don't think, at least me.

So right now I heard one of the things you're doing is 3 to 5 hour long rides at a relative low intensity.

Yes.

And you're having joy in sometimes doing that with other athletes, having conversations. How has that shifted for you from previous training approach to more recent training approach?

Well, first off, it's not as isolating. It's a lot more fun. You can explore. I mean, living in Boulder, I went on some routes last fall that I'd never gone on before. They're all within 50 miles of my house, but I'd never explored these roads before. And so just like that freedom and making sure you have the joy and the joy in the process and the joy in every day. And it's not all gonna be like sunshines and rainbows, but if you can find enjoyment each day, like, That's a lot. That's very, quite powerful, I think.

Yeah. How do you go about measuring intensity both on like a low intensity, but also on the harder sessions for swimming, for cycling, and for running?

That's really interesting that you asked that given, so I got a, a message from Dan earlier this week cuz I told him, I was like, I'm really on edge. I'm kind of like frustrated. I'm really tired. I'm very emotional. Like I understand, like I have a rest week coming up next week, like I can feel my body's like near an edge. And so like, just like make him aware of that. And he said like, like use the paces and everything that I'm given on the bike, it's watts and running its paces like as guidelines. But he's like, you know how it should feel and make sure you go by feel more than anything else. And so I think that's strange. Like in a world, I've had a conversation with Lawrence before. I was like, if you ask someone to sleep, how'd they slept last night? How many people will say, Like, oh, my sleep score was this. Like, no, no, no. How did you sleep? Like, how did it feel? Like, but we live in this world where we're constantly getting feedback. And so I don't know how much we trust ourselves anymore. Like, do you think you have good trust in yourself?

No, it, it really is. Like I had a, had a conversation with Dr. Rangan on my podcast recently and it talked about that as well, where sometimes your Oura Ring will tell you one thing And then you absolutely had a, like, terrible night of sleep and you're like, no, I did not have a fantastic night of sleep. Like, you're so freaking off. Sometimes it's in line with each other. That's why I never check my data before a race. Mm-hmm. Because before a race, I typically have some race nerves or might not sleep that well.

Yeah.

If it's telling me to back off in training, even though I'm like gonna be racing, it's just gonna mess with your mind.

So it's, yeah, it's the most helpful. So to triathlon, I wear my watch like the whole race. And so. We swim and then we bike and then we run. And oftentimes when I get to the run to start the GPS, it'll tell me like today's workout suggestion, rest. And I'm like, I just need to go run. That's not helpful.

Just be quiet.

Sorry, that's not how it works.

So there's, there's different ways of training and, and you talk about having that conversation with Don sometimes about adjusting your training based on how you feel.

Yes.

And so there's also that topic of letting the training come to you. Can you share a little bit more about your thought process there?

So whenever you talk about Don, I think the biggest thing is he bases every relationship on trust. And so all, like, if I feel like something's off, I'll always communicate with him and sometimes an adjustment will be made and sometimes it's just like, no, we stick to the plan and you do it and you do it to the best of your ability.

Over the years you've learned quite a few things and you're also quite analytical. You're not the average athlete. You put a lot of thought into different areas of your life, different approaches of your training, finding ways to optimize sleep, finding ways to fine-tune this, fine-tune that, analyze races. Knowing what you know now, what advice do you have to your younger self?

Well, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have listened to myself. So I don't think that any advice to my younger self would've been very helpful because I think sometimes you have to live it to learn it and you'll keep relearning lessons that you didn't learn quite well enough the first time, I think. So I think just like some, you just won't understand unless you go through it sometimes. And that's the more valuable lesson in realizing like what's important and why do you want to do something because you could tell someone to do, something a certain way, but until you really like understand it and feel it and know it, it's not going to have the same effect, or at least for as long.

So there would be nothing that if you could go back in a time machine 5 years ago and tell Taylor at that point?

Well, there are a lot of things. I think each relationship that I've had that's ended has led me to another one. And I think that like I'm very fortunate to have the team that I have now. Yeah. Just like en— enjoy the, like, enjoy it. And, and I think I do for the most part, but some, sometimes I put a little extra stress on myself and pressure and it's kind of like, okay, really? How much will that change your life or not? Like it won't. And so like learning how to enjoy things a bit better.

And so back in the day, did you feel like you were enjoying it less? Are you having more fun in your training or racing now than you were back in the day or has it evolved over time?

In the past year, I feel like I've been liberated. And that's a weird feeling because I didn't feel trapped before, but I feel liberated now. So like, how can you explain both things? Like there has to be some comparison. There has to be some level of being trapped to feel that way. Actually, I think, I don't think I would've told myself anything. I think I would've asked myself something. And I think what I would've asked myself was, why are you racing short course? Because I think we weren't gonna talk about this, but I think Paris this year, I kind of realized like after the race, I want, I wanted to do well, I thought, but after the race, in a bad race, like I really just felt liberated from short course. Like I don't need to do this ever again. I can walk away and I'll still love my life. And I was like, wow, like why did you feel like you had to race these races? And so I think like reestablishing my relationship with that. But so that's the one question I would ask myself because like I'm the only person who's gonna live my life. So I get to do what I want to a certain extent as long as it doesn't harm others.

Like, Yeah. So sometimes it's almost a pressure we put on ourselves. It's not, not other people. It's even some of the pressure we put on ourselves then, isn't it?

Yes, I do think I agree. Like, I, I think there was this idea that in the world of triathlon, like that you follow this path and there's this one way to do things and you kind of have to like conquer short course in order to get to move on to long course. And I don't know, like, Does it have to be that way? Can you— you can't do them all at the same time, but can you change up the order? Can you like follow different things and the Olympics isn't the be-all end-all?

So let's talk about a slogan that has come up in conversations with Laurence and with others, mastery or medals over mastery.

Mastery over medals, not medals over mastery. I hope we could do everything.

Has your perception of that changed over the years? Or how do you look at it at this point in your career?

Well, I think they both matter to me at this point in my career, but I think that I was actually instructed, like, you have to hold your goals delicately and loosely, because if you grasp too tight, they'll break. And so Similarly, if you want medals, if you want to do well, you kind of have to focus on mastery because if you're just focusing on that, it can take you down. It's more of a byproduct than the goal and the whole focus. But the other thing is whatever you're going towards, and this is a tough thing about goals that I don't think a lot of people talk about, and maybe they do, then I've just never heard about this. But so when you're working towards a goal and then let's say it's a race and it happens, whether you achieve the goal or not, the next day you don't have that goal anymore. And this thing that was in your life and like a compass and a guiding force and what got you out of bed every day and what gave you purpose and meaning is all of a sudden gone. Whether you like, win gold at the Olympics or you are last in your local 5K. It's just, it's done, it's gone. And like, and I don't know, I don't know if there's like a lot of people who talk about that. Like it's tough either way.

It is. There's almost a post-race blues that, that people experience from that perspective of feeling depressed down, down the race. And what do you do? You sign up a lot, a lot of recreational runners, they have to sign up for another race again to feel worthy or training towards something or, or whatnot. And This is once again why I think really enjoying that process and enjoying the day-to-day versus putting so many eggs in one basket on whether that race goes well or not, whether you're a failure or a success based on how that race goes. Yeah, I think that's an identity shift there.

Well, yeah. And so if the goal is mastery and if the goal is, or if the idea is, I wanna see how good I can be, and if the races are stepping stones and just opportunities in which you can express yourself and express your potential, it's like the next day, like your goal and your purpose isn't gone. And so that's like also a different way. And it's kind of your life project and knowing that you might not ever fully succeed, but you just keep like working closer and closer towards it.

I wanna go back to what you were saying just a little bit ago about you didn't feel trapped yet all of a sudden you felt liberated.

Yes.

And it's funny, for 10 years I was running fairly consistent. Things were going really well. Things were clicking. I felt comfortable in my running, and I thought things were going very smooth until I started implementing some new things again, including working with Laurens and the flow rope and the backwards walking and truly understanding what posterior chain was feeling like. Started running much more with an open heart, started feeling much more that I had certain breakthroughs in my running that felt like completely running in a flow state that I'd only experienced that every now and then, like during tough races, like during the Boston Marathon, or where you're really pushing it hard and that you feel like everything is like timeless and it goes really well. And all of a sudden I started experimenting, experiencing that in some of my training runs too. And that was a big shift that I thought everything was going well. And then there was another level almost.

Well, yes. And that's fun. And it's, I don't think it's I don't think it's anything to bash the prior self, but you've just, you've learned and you've grown.

Yeah. What have you seen in your, in your bike rides or in your swim change then over time?

Well, a lot. I think I, last year I had a really good time trial and Lawrence had actually come to that race because it was in, in the middle of two short course races and I was gonna be running. And so he wanted to see me before the next one. And so, And he came and it was probably the best experience of the year or one of them. But just like, as I would say, sometimes the power just flows and it's kind of indescribable, but you just kind of know.

Is there anything you can do to replicate that more frequently?

See Lawrence more often?

Everyone listening is going to visit Boulder, try to find where he lives.

Yes. I don't, I don't have any other good answer. That's my tactic, but there you go.

Now you blew all your secrets.

Probably some dependency, but also, yeah, I don't know how— that's probably a good question that I'll need to think about.

So I've had conversations with a variety of athletes on here. Some were elite athletes, some were different experts in their field, running coaches, some were recreational athletes. And sometimes I find it fascinating, like When you hit a tough spot in a race, it happens for a variety of different reasons. Mark Allen was talking about wanting to get to a place of gratitude and trying to be really present. Courtney Dauwalter, when she gets to a tough spot, um, she's the GOAT of ultra running. She goes far and she goes hard. When she gets to that dark spot, she keeps telling herself, robot, robot, robot, and she's just executing. And I've heard you talk about counting to 10 repeatedly. Yes. Tell, tell me more what goes through your mind and how you work through that.

Well, I think it, it's tough because there's, there's a, a part of you that you wanna be prepared for the tough parts in the race and they're going to come. But I think by thinking about them too much beforehand, at least this is me, you're almost like willing them to come. And so like each race is a new experience. It'll bring about new challenges, like the tough parts. Like, first of all, the fun thing is the more you race, you know that they pass. Like, hopefully, hopefully they do pass.

You can overcome.

Well, well, well, either they pass or the race ends. So there are two things. And so like at the same time, it's getting to the finish line quicker and trying to like refocus yourself every time and get back into a state. And I think it's just like, The counting is really calming for me and rhythmic, and it normally comes on the run. Sometimes it's in the swim cuz you have no idea where you are in the water. At least I don't. And yes, it just like, it's grounding, but that's also, I work in time. And so it's like if you gave me a workout, for example, like if you said you need to do like 3x5 miles on the bike, I would probably not be able to handle that workout. If you told me that it was like 3 by 12 minutes or 3 by 20 minutes, I could break it up. I could handle it. But 3 by 5 miles, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose it a little bit. So yes, I work in time and I just understand that that works for me, but that's probably not helpful.

No, I'm in the same boat. Literally all of our training schedules are actually time-based. Only every now and then, like distance-based. To hit certain long runs or to hit certain workouts, but I prefer the time basis. I can wrap my head around it more.

Do you convert the distance into time?

I do not.

Oh, see, you then, you can use a different whole metric.

Yeah. And so, because sometimes even on an easy run, right?

Yeah.

If I'm running an easy run here in Boulder at altitude and there's hills and there's trails, yeah, it's gonna be much different at sea level where it's asphalt and I can just run faster. And so the time part plays a big role there for me.

So interesting. Cause like, so last week, for example, I had 3 times 8 by 200. So I think like, okay, my 200s will take about 40 seconds, maybe a little bit under a lot. We're a lot under to be perfectly honest. But so each round takes 5, that's 5 minutes and 20 seconds of work. And so it's 16. I hope I'm doing the math right. It's 16 minutes total. Like that's how I like change the workout and the workout's the same, but So it's fascinating that you can even like switch modalities. Yeah. That's impressive.

Yeah. Sometimes it works. It doesn't always work, but.

So what's your mantra? Like how do you get through the tough parts in races?

Actually, there's a, there's a few different things. One for me is once I start breathing rhythmically, I can really calm myself down. Meaning like I, I try to, I notice sometimes I start running, losing running form, starting to crouch forward. So if I'm truly trying to run with an open heart, that's one my cues, like run with an open heart. And automatically I almost think back about the flow rope, like, like cueing myself as if I'm doing the flow rope and it starts to become easier. I start to be able to run with an open chest more and then I like just sync my breathing with my cadence. And for me that is very calming. And like once I can come to a calming place, like, like you were saying earlier, like once you can relax, Relax more. All of a sudden it almost drops your heart rate. It drops your lactate and you feel more under control.

That control piece is huge.

And sometimes I just tell myself like to, you can do this or something really short. Then I don't have the brainwave anymore at that point. So kind of depends on what stage of hard it is.

So, but you also have to have, I liked how you said like it depends on the situation. And so like learning the tools and what'll work and sometimes in some races it's like the counting doesn't work. And so it's kind of like, okay, how do you get through this time?

Buckle up. You got this. Yeah. It becomes shorter and shorter. Go. Um, one fascinating thing that I thought about the pain cave is there's quite some people who try to avoid it or people who almost fear it. When I had a conversation with Courtney, she started talking about not fearing it anymore, but her attitude changed towards knowing it's going to come and actually realizing that's where some of the work is happening. And so not being afraid of it, but actually almost encouraging or like celebrating once you are in that spot, because that's where it's almost like an onion that's got peeled raw. That's where the real rawness is kind of happening. That's where the core of the race is sometimes happening. I think in different races, it's not until 60, 70, 80% in where the race really starts. And so I think sometimes celebrating being in that tough spot versus fearing it, I, I thought that there was something over there too.

Uh, I appreciate that. And also it's funny that you use pain cave. I never really use that term and I almost think this isn't, this, you can interpret it however you want. Like when there's especially, so like within the bike portion, I am very excited for a very challenging part because my first thought is I can get a lot of time here. So it's, it's an opportunity area. And that's also, so in my, in my time trial in May, there was an Olympic spot on the line. So it was like winner takes all. And on the, it was 2 laps. So we kind of started midway through a lap and went to one end and U-turns on each end. So like the first lap, the, we'll say like the, 10% to maybe, or maybe like 5% to 30% of the race, it was like a little bit uphill and it was a little bit into a headwind. And so I was going like 28 or 29 miles an hour and then we flipped and I was going a lot faster. And so when we flipped again, like that's the 60 to 80% of the race, which that's a hard part to commit to. That's the harder part to commit to, but that's where you have to do it. And so I'm like, Taylor, like, this is where you're gonna win it or not. And so like, but it's fun because you get to like, you know that not many people are willing to do that. And so that's where you get your time. So this sounds savage and joyous, but like I grew up in a swim program where like in it we like would race 200s all the time, like in practice and meets and all that stuff. And so 200 swimming is It gets faster than 2 minutes, but like short course yards will say like about 2 minutes. So think of an 800 running, that's a tough amount of time. And the key was that third 50. And we would work so hard on that third 50 because the way you want to pace a 200 is even. And so you're going to have to really commit to that third 50 when it's like, it's easy to commit to the last 50, but the third 50. And then I went to college and we had a second 50 pace. Third 50 pace and fourth 50 pace. And I was like, these should all be the same. There should be no differentiation. Sorry, but it like, it comes out again and again. Like if you can, and it's that third quarter of whatever you're doing, maybe not an Ironman or an ultra distance race. Yeah.

This is so fascinating. And you're such a beast on the bike, dude. The time that you are able to get on the bike in those sections where you know you gotta put in the work and everyone else does, but It is so fun to watch that. It really, really is. But I can imagine you make it look easy, but I know there's definitely a lot of effort that goes into that.

Yes, there is both in training and racing, but it's also, it's fun to be able to express that. And so like, I have to be grateful for that and grateful for that opportunity each time. And I know all the women are coming for me, so that's, that's deeply motivating.

I can only imagine. Um, I do want to talk about trust and training coach and all of that part, because you follow your own intuition, you also follow the trust of your team around you. In what sort of way does— do you balance that? Do you— like, it, it sounds— seems kind of like they have a really good understanding of what's going on in your world. But tell me more from your perspective.

Well, so my coach, Don, who's the boss, he's the boss of everyone on the team. Like his, like the basis of all the relationships is trust. And so it's not only that, like he trusts me and I trust him, but he trusts himself and I trust myself. And so like, I think that's a key foundation. And I, when I first talked with him, I was like, okay, cool, trust, like I get it. And then like 3 months later, it was like there was something that came up and I was like, oh, I get it. Like, and then it's like, I still, now I'm, it's like the Dunning-Kruger effect, I think. Like now I'm learning that I still probably don't fully understand the full capacity of it. But I think one of the the most like restful periods for me was my off season. I took probably the best, I got sick, that helped. But like prior to getting sick, I was like the most like relaxed and like not like, I actually like enjoyed my off season at the start. I was ready to get back, but because I was like, this is what I need to do right now. I'm doing what I need to do and wherever I am in 2 weeks or 3 weeks, whenever we start up again, like Dan will, he'll understand where I am. He'll, and he'll get me to where I need to be. And so it's like, it's just like this huge weight that's lifted that you, you do what you need to do. You trust that it's the right thing. And so you don't have to do anything more. Like maybe that's the liberating factor that we talked about earlier.

Well, and you're surrounded by good people. And they've proven over time that they're the right fit for you at this point. And so then that trust gets built more and more over time, probably too.

Oh yes. And trust is earned. It's not just given, but like part of trust is also, I think, forgiveness, both yourself and other people, and realizing that we're all human and we're going to make mistakes. And like, there's also a level of priorities and what's the goal. Like I had a conversation sometime this week with, I forget who I was talking to, but it's like, I wanna, I wanna race well. I wanna see what I'm capable of. And hard work is a tool to get there, but like, that's not the goal. Like, and, and that's sometimes like the tools can be hard to differentiate sometimes because they're so important, like patience and trusting the process and following the plan. But like at a certain point, the tools need to be thrown out the window. So it's like in certain situations, like understand when you need which tool, when, and most of the time you'll need every tool, but then sometimes like there's situations that you just like get rid of them.

I was listening to a breakdown of your entire training and, oh, who was I saying this? Yeah, I think this was, I don't even know which podcast this was on, but it was fascinating. Like Monday through Sunday, what you were doing between your bike rides, your runs, your swims, your strength training, and you train like very thoughtful, but you've put in serious effort during the weeks, like during the peak weeks, during the buildups. But then you were just talking about off-season too. How does off-season look like for you?

Well, so I've only had one with my current coach and I, he literally said, just be ready to like, be ready to go and 3 weeks. And then at the, I think it was the 12-day mark, I told him, he said he was going to give me some suggestions for the next week. And I'm like, I've been itching to go for about 5 days. I think we're good to go and just like, just start doing the Start the Plan again. But I think it's my off-season is doing the things that I kind of, you put things off and it's doing the things that you put off. So I spent a lot of time with my family. Not that I put that off, but I don't always get to spend time with them. It also fell around the holidays this year. And so, and not doing anything because I have to, but because I want to, but also realizing that the years are becoming long. And so I'm a little like protective right now because it's February and I'm going to have to be ready to race well from April 5th until December 13th and 14th. That's a long time to be ready. So kind of like, how ready do I need to be on April 5th? And also like the first few days of offseason, I didn't do anything. Like I literally, if you want to say like didn't do anything, like I got out of bed. That's pretty much what I did.

You were doing the recovery.

Yes, exactly. Because I know that the training will come and the work will come and it's, there's a level of honesty I think you need and accountability of like understanding what it'll take. And I don't know, and I probably, I definitely fell into this trap of like thinking you could get ahead and like, oh, I'll just skip a week of my off season, which I kind of did, I kind of didn't. I had two full weeks, but like, I'll just skip this here and I'll get ahead. It's like, How long will you really be ahead? Like, that's, that's the thing.

There's, there's plenty of recreational runners that I talk to as well, and not even runners, like athletes that are not taking their step back week serious. And I just keep training and keep stacking training cycle after training cycle without that break. And there's something so powerful about that recharge in between.

Well, it depends on what their goals are. If their goals are that, you know what, if they're like, if they're going for a streak goal,, and they're going for a how much work can my body take over 10 years goal. Like that's a different measurement. And so you could like, it just kind of like be honest with yourself of what your goal is. Is it, and also what everyone has a different relationship with every sport and running in particular. Like for some people it's an escape, for some people it's, they're just, there's so many reasons. And so it's like, it's hard to judge without really knowing. A lot of people aren't honest about what their goals are, I think. That's judging, but.

Oh no, they care more about Strava times and training than they care about race results. I see it from time to time.

Well, and you know what? Like, that's fine. Like, that's perfectly fine. That's great. But then if you're disappointed with the race, then it's kind of like you just have to be, and especially if a pattern continues, and then if you take that disappointment on other people, like., then you begin to see. Um, yeah, but I've had that this week a little bit because it's like we have very specific training in the pool and like it's zone 2, which is easy to cheat. It's easy to go a little harder, but it's like really like, what's it gonna like, you're just not getting the point. Like you're missing the whole aim, which went back to like the, the runners that you were talking about after my off season, my coach hadn't reset my zones and so I did an easy run and I And I was like, I don't think that's my zone 1 anymore. And like, but it's, and it's, you know what, it's humbling and you worked hard to get to whatever pace you did certain things at. But if you wanna get back to where you were faster, the quickest way is being honest and doing what you need to do to get there.

Yeah.

Like as, and, and it'll each comes with challenges. It's just like, which challenge do you wanna deal with?

For sure. So well said. You're very analytical.

That's what people always say.

No, you, you, you are like the thoughts that you put into the different aspects. I've, I've really come to appreciate that when you are doing a race after the race, whether it has gone according to plan or whether it didn't go according to plan, how do you analyze that race? How do you go about it? Is it, Are you journaling? Are you looking at all the data? Is it a combination of things? Do you debrief right away? Do you take some time for that? Tell me more about that process.

Well, it probably depends on the race this year. Like I, so I write a race recap and I got lazy near the end of the year. And so normally I would write it on the like plane ride home from a race, which is a very good timeline for my Dubai race recap. I think I wrote it 2 months later and for my New Zealand race recap, it It was a month later, so that wasn't— I wasn't being super good. Um, but like, I look at the data, we, like, I have a plan going into the race and you kind of just know it's, it's not— you stick to it as best you can, but you also have to make decisions in the moment. Um, and I get feedback from my coach and get— I talk to a lot of people on my team and they give their inputs and I appreciate that. I talk about it with a lot of people.

Is there specific data you look at?

Well, I'm in— interested in my power. Like I take it with a grain of salt because the course matters, the temperature matters. Like there's so many other things that matter. And also speed matters a little bit more than your power file. You don't, you don't win the race from your power file. It's, which is, which is tough to understand. Um, sometimes, but, um, so I get my race plan in rate of perceived exertion and then heart rate. And then pace, I look at like how well I executed it. It just, it's, it's a lot of curiosity more than anything else.

It's fun though, isn't it?

Yes. How do you analyze your races?

Kind of in a similar way. I do, I do typically, if I wait until I'm back on the airplane, a lot of these thoughts have disappeared. Sometimes when I'm on, like right after I come through the finish line, I just grab my phone and start talking into the phone. Because I just, it's so fresh of mind that I was thinking like, yeah, I had a hard time opening this gel because my fingers got cold and I should like see what, or, or what, whatever might come up. I just blurb it all out. And then later on, I didn't even realize half those things that I said, like I've almost forget about it after 24 hours, but it's pretty fresh. So I do try to kind of do some of that pretty early on, but then later on I have a little bit more time to think through it.

So, well, I respect that you do it after the finish line. I'm certain there'll be a world where someone's doing it prior to the finish line. Some point in time you'll be running. Well, hopefully you're not running by this person, but mile 1, really didn't like that mile.

Sorry. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I've done some of that too, but that's, that's a whole different type of racing at that point. So yeah, when you wanna get your ultimate performance, it's, it's a little bit different over there.

So, well, and also I think, I think something sometimes it's really healthy to forget. It is because first of all, so you'll line up again because there are certain races where I've retired multiple times within the race and just like, I don't know why I kept going if I retired, but I did.

So That's the thing. I've literally come through the finish line. I thought that I had an amazing race and everything looked smooth. And I see the race day photos and I'm like, I don't remember my eyes rolling backwards in the back of my head. I thought everything was going smooth.

But that's how we view life. I was actually, I was talking to Laurence about this and I was like, yeah, like I thought, I was like, I thought that like, you know, I really enjoyed this period of time. It was like a 3-month stretch. He's like, Are you kidding me? Do you remember? Do you remember those 3 months? I was like, yeah, it was great. He was like, oh yeah. Like we were living in different worlds.

I guess. Yeah. There's definitely that part. I think people who finish certain races have that thought until they sign up for the next race again because they get excited.

But there's also something like, so going back to you talked about like the pain cave, like there's a beauty in the suffering sometimes. And like, there's just like some like joy that like results from it and kind of like whatever situation that you're thrust into, like especially the challenging ones, like could you handle it? Did you say yes regardless of how it was, regardless of how like, you, regardless of how it went, like, did you try your best? And then it, that comes back to the trust also in terms of like, if you trust yourself, like you trust that you're giving your best effort and you're doing the, like doing the best. And then there's like this level of peace with that regardless of how the end result goes.

I think one of my favorite moments in a race is actually when when you overcome that tough spot, when you believe you can overcome it and you get like a second wind or a third wind or a fourth wind or getting wind again, it's such a beautiful feeling.

So yes, it's incredible. And I think it also, in a world where it's sometimes tough to be optimistic, I think racing teaches you to be optimistic because like regardless of how it's going, like if you explained it to someone else, like in certain moments, like if you still have that like hope of like it can turn around, even if it's like, wow, it's not turning around. Like from the outside you can see it's not turning around. Like it, like you just learn to like view life that way.

No, it really is. And I think some people who have never gone through it, they might be surprised they can overcome it until they overcome it. And like, oh wow, you can really get a second life in a race or a third life.

Yeah, it's beautiful. Yes. And that applies to all areas of life, but it's kind of, it's reassuring when like, if things are going hard, like you just have to like weather it out and wait it out.

So much crossover, right? From athletic performance into daily life as well then when you encounter challenges even in daily life that crosses over.

Well, yeah, I think it's one of the areas where it's quite natural, it's quite raw. Like it's, it's really like, and maybe this is biased from my point of view, like I would describe it as like living. And that's tough to say, but it's like, that's like where I feel like almost most alive in a lot of ways.

100%. I have one, actually two closing questions over here. Where can people find more about you? I heard you're a fan of an Instagram DM, that you read all of them.

I read more than I respond to. If it's the rule is like my manager says, like you, you kind of wanna match effort. And so what people give, you should give in response positively, of course. But I have Instagram. I'm not super active, but yes, that's, it's a balancing act, right?

You gotta be realistic there as well. And I think you're doing a phenomenal job sharing some of your training updates, racing updates. You have a YouTube channel too with some videos on there. I think you should do more, like more of the long form. Maybe you and Lauren should interview each other.

Oh, that would actually be really fun. But yes, my, my manager said, he's like, I asked him if I should do YouTube this year and he's like, well, he's like, you don't have to next year, but like, just don't take a 4-year break. So it's like just having the option and I think It's always having that control of like, and that's why I guess similar to you because you don't post your podcast on a schedule. It's like I don't post on Instagram on a schedule and sometimes if I don't post for a while, people will comment like, oh, why haven't you posted in a while? And it's like, this is my choice. Like I don't owe you anything. Now, if you're one of my partners and in our contract is a certain number of posts, you can comment and But like to me directly, but otherwise, like, I don't owe you anything.

Yeah. Sorry. 100%. Spot on. This is, there's quite some people listening that are recreational athletes, endurance athletes, triathletes, runners looking to improve either becoming a stronger, a healthier, a happier athlete. Do you have any high-level thoughts, any recommendations, any insight you would like to share?

Well, I think I have a lot of thoughts on that. I think one thought is like in terms of whatever you're trying to do, like athletically, like pick something that you enjoy and you might not love it at first. And that's what I said when sometimes people will tell me like, oh, I don't run. I don't like running. I'm like, well, if I take a 2-week break from running, I don't, I might not love it the first day or week or month back. Like, it takes some time to feel better again. So if you've never run in your life and you're 40 or 50 or 60 years old, like, a 2-week break compared to however many year-long break, like, it, it might take some more time, but give it a chance. So, but also I think, like, determining how it fits in your life is important. And, like, I probably don't have the same perspective because my, my sports double as a lot of things. Like, it's my job, it's my passion, it's my hobby, it's my form of exercise, it's a lot of my social time, it's the time I spend outside. Um, and so it's very efficient, but I also don't understand, like, when a lot of people have a lot of things going on in life. And so just not comparing to— I'm very like, my situation is unique, so I wouldn't compare it to me. And so I probably don't have enough of an understanding to give good enough advice.

No, but then again, I do think the part that you explained there, it, it's fascinating. You're saying like the joy in the process. I think that's among the different athletes that I've had on the podcast. The joy in the process has become kind of a common theme. But also I think you saying sometimes you might not experience that joy right at the beginning because when you're out of shape or when you're just getting back into new activity, there's almost a little bit of a hump to overcome. And sometimes people put quite a high threshold of like, a run doesn't count until you're running for an hour. No, even you going out for a, for a slow jog or for a walk with a little bit of jogging in between and gradually building up can make a big difference there.

So yes, it actually also makes me think of something else. And so one of the women I swim with, she, is, I feel bad saying her age, but she's 65. And one of the guys I swim with, he went to the Olympics in triathlon and he's a very, very good runner. And she was saying, she was like, yeah, I was running and Kevin passed me and she's like, I just felt so bad. He was probably thinking I was so slow and judging me and all this stuff. And I was like, Sandy, I'm guessing Kevin was just like excited to see you out there. Like, there's just like— there's understanding that there's just like this joy in the doing, I think. Isn't that like a William Shakespeare poem? Like, things one are done, joy's soul lies in the doing. I might get that wrong, but it's like, if there's— people sometimes talk about like an intimidation factor of like getting started, and they don't feel like they're good enough or they're fast enough, or it doesn't count. Like, just being out there is kind of the goal and the aim. And if someone's passing you or you're passing them on the trail, going either way, like, be friendly. Like, smile, and there's no judgment. The only people I judge are the people who, like, I'll wave to and they're just like— they don't, they don't look at you. Like, I don't judge pace, I don't judge anything else. It's like, if you're not friendly, it's It's kind of like, okay, sorry, you're having a really bad day. This run isn't helping you much. But so I don't know, like, I don't know how people think and like kind of what are the barriers to entry? Like what are the hurdles? What are people concerned about? And like, how can people who are also out there say like, no, no, no. Like that's not like, don't be concerned. And any worry comes from a, like a, place of like the utmost, like you have to respect those. They come from a place of reason. Um, but just like realizing that.

And then once again, just throw pace out of the window, throw distance out of the window. Just look at time. I'm gonna go for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and the time will get a little bit further. And eventually you can start looking at other things. But it, I found that to take some of the pressure off as well.

So, well, yes. And also like the, there's just like this, like, peacefulness. And there's also a lot of value to very low intensity, both in terms of like the fact that you enjoy it. Sorry, we're going to come back to this again. But also the amount of time it takes to recover is less. And then you can start stacking and not like your body joints, but like stacking the days and the weeks and the months. And then suddenly like that's where the real improvement happens.

Yeah, so well said. Next time I'm in Boulder, we'll go for a run and we can have a, for you, conversational pace, for me, like that will be a zone 5. We'll go for a nice run and at that point we'll record a conversation of round number 2.

Well, good, I enjoy it, but we can go whatever pace. That's the thing. It should be conversational for both of us.

But here's the thing, you're used to Boulder altitude. For me, coming from sea level, First of all, it is so much more challenging for me to run here the first few days, but we'll find a happy medium somewhere.

Well, that's completely understandable, but also Lawrence's wife Gwen has taught me how to run slowly. It's very, it's a skill. Not that saying that you're slow, but it's more you were concerned about the altitude. And that's the thing, like it's not a race. It's not gonna make or break a season or a lifetime.

Exactly, exactly. Well, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. And yeah, we'll talk again more soon.

Thank you for coming out here.

Thanks so much for listening. Quick favor to ask. I'm 99K into the subscribers on my YouTube channel, and it would mean the world to me if you can help me get to 100K subs. So if you're not subscribed yet, can you please go over to my YouTube channel, hit the like and subscribe button, and I will put together a little video with some of my favorite clips from the first 100K subscribers, different lessons learned as a creator, um, and even, yeah, a few of the favorite quotes and takeaways there that I've even come across myself. Thanks so much in advance. Several different podcasts are in the works. I can't wait to share them. The next one after this is actually with Laurence and with Taylor. Um, so yeah, stay tuned for for that. And, uh, I would say have fun out there on your runs. All right, bye now.