290: More Sales, Less Marketing - How to Take the Yuck Out of Selling with Frances Pratt

Hey there, welcome to another episode of the Her Business Podcast. I'm Susie, and today we're talking about how to sell without being salesy. I hear this all the time from women business owners. Most of us like marketing, some of us love marketing. We love crafting our messaging and speaking to our ideal clients. But when it comes to actually making the sale, not as much fun.

So often we start feeling icky, yuck.

We start doubting the value of what we provide, and we don't want to push people into buying. I think it's a natural human feeling to have. I know I felt this for many years in business. But when you realize that sales is part of the bigger puzzle, and that you can do it without these icky feelings, that's when you get a major breakthrough in your business and in your bottom line. So today we're talking to Frances Pratt of MetaZan. Her mission is to take the yuck out of selling and help women business owners better connect with their clients by fully understanding why they buy. She has decades of sales experience and she believes that we should go about sales differently by reframing the thought of selling to genuinely helping our clients. In fact, she's written a great new book called Less Sales, More Marketing, and we're gonna be talking about that. I can't wait to dive into this topic, so let's get started.

Hey friend, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Susie. Such a great pleasure to be here.

I am very excited for the release of your book. I am very excited because it's called More Sales, Less Marketing, and someone who loves marketing and hasn't always loved sales, I'm really keen to dig into your point of view, which I know is something that you've been— how long have you been in business now?

Uh, 14 years.

So you have been trying to tell us for 14 years that sales is important, and now you're coming at it with a book. So I'm so excited. Here's what I know, and I know you know this too, is that a lot of business owners struggle with this idea that asking for the sale is pushy and manipulative. But I know that in the new book, you give them strategies for reframing that mindset and embracing this idea of sales being a way to help clients. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yes. Um, so I think the first thing to understand is what we think and feel about something really dictates how we act. So when we have this used car salesman, icky sticky idea about what selling is, what we do is we, we make sure our actions are the polar opposite. of that. And so it actually creates an aversion to selling. So in the book, I call that crocodile selling. And the reason I call it crocodile selling is because, yes, there are crocodiles still on the earth today, and yes, there are still salespeople who sell like that, but we are not in the age of the dinosaur. that, that mode of selling is completely outdated and that the new way of doing it is actually, as, as you said, helping your customer. The whole purpose of selling is to help them to solve a problem that they have or to meet an aspiration that they have, and your job is to help them on that journey. So it really removes— it's actually not about You. It's actually all about your client. And when we know that, it suddenly opens up all of these new things to try.

There's so much in what you just said because so much of it is our mindset, how we approach it. Like you said, how we show up in that situation. And if we know we've got something valuable and we're not letting people know, it's, um, one, it's not going to end up with money in our bank account or us living the life that we want or having the business we want, but we're also not going to help as many people. So this is such a great topic. Now, your book is about sales and marketing, More Sales, Less Marketing. You describe marketing as being a complementary discipline, but one that is often disconnected, like the two are often disconnected. There's sales and there's marketing. What practical steps can we as small business owners take to reunite these two sisters, if you like, in our daily operations in our business?

Yeah, that's a really good question because when sales and marketing are working together as sisters, the results are phenomenal. So the way I like to describe the difference before we think about uniting them is that marketing is about herding, about sending a group of people a message that we think is, is going to elicit a response.

from them.

Sales is hunting. Sales is, I see that person sitting in front of me and I'm going to craft my message and the things that I say to address that individual's needs. So they're the key differences to me. So if we think about it, if the sales and marketing people or teams can work with one another and start by listening and sharing and Because marketing has awesome insights and data to share, and so do the salespeople. Because the salespeople who are out talking to your clients all the time, they have a real currency around their information. So it's really about understanding the differences, listening and sharing, and then having some mutual respect so that we can actually work in concert It's not just the oboe or the flute, it's both of them playing together.

And, you know, most of the people who are listening, they, they're a solopreneur, they've got a very small team, so likely they're responsible for both of those things. But I like that idea that with marketing we are herding, if we use that sort of analogy, whereas when we're actually going to ask for the sale, we're being very specific about what we're offering to whom and when, at what price point, and We're only talking to that person at that particular moment in time.

Yes.

In the book, the Wizard of Oz analogy appears a number of times actually throughout the book. Do you see this role of storytelling using this metaphor in making— is a way to make sales concepts more relatable and actionable for business owners? And is that something we ought to be doing in our own language?

Absolutely. Storytelling is such an essential part of being human, and business is a human activity. So I feel like the more that we can encompass and tell a story, the easier it is both for us and for the person who's listening. I often, when I'm coaching people in sales, I often say to them that adults are the same as children. They've just forgotten how to be honest. That's a bit cheeky. But children love stories because there's a beginning, a middle, and an end. It has a message for them. There's repetition. And that repetition is around a central theme. So this is exactly the same thing that we can use in our business. So what's your origin story? Why did you start?

Hmm.

What have you learned along the way? And if you think about— I love stories about people and women particularly learning things and learning things about themselves. And that's exactly what happens in The Wizard of Oz. You know, Dorothy has a problem, she runs away from that problem, and haven't we all been there? Um, she ends up landing in a completely different world and then has to navigate that. And all along, she's learning about herself, learning about other people, learning how to interact. And that's exactly what our clients do.

Hmm.

They enter a foreign world, which is our world, And our job is to help them navigate, help them understand what the yellow brick road is and help them learn whether this product or service or whatever it is that you're offering is actually a good solution for them or not. It's not, it's about the process, not about the outcome.

Right. And I like that you said, or not, because we're not for everybody. And I think we can get ourselves into a lot of strife when we think we are. And that's why I want to ask you about understanding your ideal client, because I know that you emphasize The importance of knowing what clients truly want. And so what is your advice to small business owners on developing this understanding of their clients' pain points rather than making assumptions or assuming that what I have, it's for everybody?

Yes. Niche, niche, niche. Um, I think the first thing that I want to say about ideal clients is I don't often use that term ideal because the response that I see in people is a dreaming one. Well, I want to work with the King of England. Well, that might be a realistic thing or it might not, but I would rather people focus on, well, who are the clients that you love working with? That if working with those people could be repeated throughout your business, that your world would be amazing. They're the ones I want to focus in on. And I suppose when I then think about your most loved client, My particular focus is I want to take them back in time to before they bought from you.

Mm-hmm.

So how would they describe that problem? How did that make them feel? What was it about the first way they were introduced to you, be that a website or an e-introduction or whatever it happened to be? What was it about that that they thought, oh, I really need to talk to Susie? Like, that's amazing. And then, so what are those pivot points through that sales journey that that client thought, oh yes, I'm gonna ask about that some more, and oh yes, I'm gonna have a meeting with that person, I'm gonna read their proposal, I'm gonna say yes to their proposal? So that's a journey that your client has been through, and the better we understand the pivots, um, the rational, the logical, and most importantly, the emotional journey that they go through, the better able then we are able to craft ourselves around that.

I want to ask you something further about that because I really like this idea of there's a journey and then there's pivot points where people are making different decisions. And if I liken it to the buyer's journey of just coming into someone's world and considering them as a possible solution to then actually buying from them. Is that a process that you take your customers through when you are trying to get them to get more comfortable with sales or really identify how to sell better?

Absolutely, because if we go back a few questions, one of the things that we said right at the beginning was that what makes us feel uncomfortable about selling is being that pushy, icky, talking about ourselves. So one of the first things I actually get people to do is go and talk to their clients, pardon me, about their buying journey, but also about, well, tell me about what you expected and have I delivered on that? And tell me about the unexpected. Like, I knew I was going to get sales coaching, but I never knew, Fran, that you were going to deliver those words to me.

Hmm.

Ah. those insights, those words and phrases that our clients use, again, if we can pull those messages into our front-end sales and marketing messaging, then that's really powerful. And I think that we not only— it's human to make assumptions and it's human to— try and homogenize people, but I just really encourage people to, to go deep, to really understand, and then to use those stories to pull other people forward.

I love what you're saying, and you've been a member of the Her Business community for a long time, and so I— you will totally relate to what I'm going to say— is when people find us initially, they're looking to grow their business, they want marketing strategies, they probably want to network so that they can sell people something. But if I ask them later why they're here, why they stay for 1, 2, 5, 10, 15 years, it's not that. It— yeah, they get that, but it's the relationships, or it's the access to be able to have a sounding board. And sometimes we can think what the value we bring is one thing, and we're trying to sell that. But actually it's the other thing. So my question to you, which is just a spontaneous question, is now that, say for instance, I know that, do I then lead with what I know ultimately is the benefit? Or do I go with the pointy end, which is, oh, she needs marketing support or she needs to get new clients?

I, I would advise you to do both. And so there's a sales tactic called feel, felt, found. Feel, felt.

Felt, past tense.

Found.

Yep, and found. So, um, look, often when people join the Her Business Network, they really feel like they, um, what they want is marketing support and leads and all of these very tactical front-up things. And what they, what they experience when they go through. And what they find is that actually it's the support. Actually, yes, they get help with marketing. Yes, they get leads. But the thing that they value more than those things is a group of like-minded businesswomen who've got their back, who are there to laugh and cry and challenge them, um, with them.

And, um, Yes.

So something like that. So you actually, you in that story, you're taking them on that journey. Yes. We know that you feel this way, but what you'll actually find once you get inside is this, you know, beautiful, all this other goodness, wonderful women.

So good.

So good.

And I hope as you're listening, you can identify what your areas are like, what your friend of mine calls it, how you dress the door. You dress the door, but then once they're inside the door, there's goodies in there and maybe we can make them visible. You know, maybe there's a transparent window where people can see, oh, that's what's happening on the inside. I want to talk about tracking and setting goals for your sales because I know this is something that you talk about in the book as being really important. What are we measuring? How do we prioritize this, especially as the business grows?

Yes. So I— the first thing I've got to say about metrics is every business has a different metric that works for them. So the first thing that we have to do is just start by starting. Just pick one. It doesn't—

Yeah.

You know, I— it's a hypothesis. We don't know whether it's the right metric or not. And so it might be about proposals out the door, it might be about new people that you've spoken to. They're just some ideas, but if you start with one and then measure that and go, that doesn't work, change it up. What else, what else are we going to measure? And I did this process actually when I was running a sales team, and what we ended up on was that every morning the sales team would talk about one metric which was pipeline moves. So that encompassed meeting new people, sending proposals, following up, all of the elements. And so, and we knew what that number needed to be per person in order to deliver the results that we want. But we didn't come to that in, you know, in the first instance. So, so I just want to encourage people to start measuring and then see what happens out of that. The second thing I want to say, um, is that when selling, um, often people, when they look at sales, they look at the end figure. I want $20,000 a month. I want $100,000 a month, whatever it happens to be. That's fine. But we need to break that down into activity. So, um, because $200,000, whatever the figure is per month, is a— is historical, and we can't— that's, that's not good for management if it's just a historical figure. So I use a rule of a third. So, and I, I'm pretty sure it's in the book. Um, so what I teach people is if you've got $10,000 that you want to make in February, say, Mm-hmm. then by the end of January, you you need 3 times that in your pipeline of proposals that might close because 3 will say yes— sorry, a third will say yes, a third will say no, and a third will delay.

Got it.

The great thing about having a number like that, having 3 times the amount that you need, is if we think of it in the opposite, If there's $10,000 sitting there and you need all of those to say yes, then every hesitation, every, um, every, you know, it cuts you. Oh no, I need you.

Yeah.

Whereas if we've got 9 and we only need 3, we go, yep, no problem. Totally understand. You don't want to start till March. That's fine by me.

You know, I love that. Or, you know, you missed the window.

I'm now full.

You need to start in March. And we're in a totally different position of power. Than if we, like you said, we're only scoping for $10,000 and $10,000 is what we really need. And we haven't put out proposals to the 3 times that so that we are sort of sitting pretty knowing that, you know what, I only need a third of them to say yes. And I've got my January budget. And then I might push another, say I've got 4, then, you know, or, you know, more than a third, then they're going to go into the next month.

Correct.

I love it. You mentioned proposals a couple of times, and I know that a lot of our listeners are in service-based businesses and they are actually getting business by putting proposals out. And I find proposals painful often when I receive them as the recipient, um, and that I feel like it's such a missed opportunity. A lot of people get them quite wrong. So what are the key elements, in your opinion, of, uh, proposals that actually increase Conversions.

So I think, um, I've been talking a lot in this interview about people being human. Well, your clients are humans, right? And as all humans, we want to be listened to, we want to be focused on, we want people to show that they understand our problems. And yet most proposals start with about us and why consider us, and that's a turn-off. frankly. So instead, let's flip it around. So to me, the first page of the proposal should show that you have listened to your client, you have understood their particular problem, you have, um, discussed or have a plausible hypothesis about what that solution looks like, and then you detail what that solution is going to mean for them. If you've asked some really good questions around their pain points, then we can put in a very personalized return on investment.

Right.

That looks at what they're going to gain, but also, you know, what are the softer elements of doing the right thing or doing— putting this in place. It's a bit like what you talked about with the Her Business members. Yes, there's the hard things, hard benefits that they want, but the soft benefits actually outweigh that.

Mm-hmm.

And it's often the same for businesses. So we really want to show them specifically that we've listened, that we're— we know what their problem is, we've got a viable solution, we've stepped them through that, and that there's a clear process to then work through that. Um, and obviously price and those sorts of things. And then I suggest to the clients that I'm working with, if you want to put about me or why buy from us or all the clients we've worked with or whatever, put it at the end.

Right.

Um, really, it depends on who you're selling to. In my business, I sell to decision makers. So I don't even include a thing about me because by the time they're getting a proposal, they already know about me.

They know you. There's something that we recommend in our Marketing Success Mastermind is that people don't just email a proposal, but they actually make a time to walk a client through it. Do you subscribe to that? Do you have a different strategy? Because I think it makes a huge difference.

I absolutely, it makes a huge difference. So the only modification that I would make to that is, um, personalizing it for the individual who you're dealing with. Some people much prefer to see the proposal before they talk to you. Other people are happy to have a presentation with you. So as long as we've got that meeting and the presentation date and time and everything set up, I might say something like, so look, some of my clients prefer to have the proposal before, and I'm really happy to send it to you, and others just want me to go through it with them. Which one are you? And so that helps that person absorb the information in a way that's good for them. And again, I suppose this is about making the buying decision in the best possible way for your customer.

Mm-hmm.

So because everybody absorbs information differently.

I think that what I want to emphasize is what you said is only attaching it in an email and then it goes to the PA and then the PA has to get to the person. That is not the way, right? You're saying it needs to be in the hands of the decision maker. And so if you can't get directly in the hands of the decision maker, then you may want to think about not just attaching it to something. You're going to go on this crazy loop of following up.

Oh, exactly. And You know, when I talk about follow-up, I don't want to leave a meeting until I've got— I've said to them, right, I'll get the proposal to you on Thursday, and when am I going to talk to you? And getting it in their calendar. Because otherwise, as you say, you're in that endless loop of he said, she said, they said, PA, whatever. And it's just a waste of time.

Mm-hmm.

And it just Yeah.

Frustrating. I wanted to address something in chapter 14, and this is something that we've all dealt with, and that is objections. Not enough time, not enough money, have to ask my spouse, need to get— go upline for approval, etc. How do you help your clients get past those obstacles, which are like, they're always the same ones. They're typically the same ones. Again, I know this is a whole science. This is the work you do, but is there anything you can give us about reframing objections in the little bit of time that we have?

Okay, so there's 2 things there. The first thing is one of the first questions you should ask is about their buying process so that you know it's got to go up, down, sideways, whatever. Um, secondly, um, we should love objections. It's a bit like when you're going to buy a rug at a store and you think Oh, I'm not sure it's going to fit in my lounge room or go with my decor or XYZ. So what does the rug store do? They say, take it with you, give us your credit card, or we'll take an imprint or whatever of your credit card or photo or whatever they do these days. Take it with you and try it on for size. That's what they say, because when people are asking questions about fit or color, or I'm not sure whether I've got Wednesdays free, or whatever the objection is.

Yes.

They're thinking about buying from you. So instead of handling objections— I hate that term because you handle a snake. It's not a snake. It's, it's something that we should love and, and draw into and, um, really go into saying, okay, So Wednesdays is a problem. Okay, let's run through that. What else can we do? Da da da da da. And if you answer that beautifully, then it opens up the opportunity for more. And the more is often the objections behind the first objection are often more important. And because you've dealt with the first one so lovingly, they they're more likely to open up. with what's really bothering them or what, what's really, they're not sure about. Um, and yes, I've got countless stories about that, uh, that process working. Great.

We're going to make sure that we send people to the book, um, so they can read more about this because I think this is a huge one because we get stopped. People say, and then we get, oh, the economy's tanking. No one can afford it. It's like, It's like, no, people will pay for what they value. And we, I think, just need to get better at not objecting to their objections, but finding a way to be gracious, like you said, and handling it elegantly in a way that you get beyond the objection. And I mean, this is an art that you've honed over years and years. And so I love that this is something that you support your clients with.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Um, I want to ask, um, about trust. We've talked a number of times here today about being human and we're dealing with humans and whether you sell, um, consumer to consumer, you sell to business, you're not selling to corporates, you're selling to a human that works inside of an organization. What are your tips for building trust with clients over time? Or prospects rather, because you said when, you know, I didn't even put my about because they already know me at that point, it's almost sold. How do you go about building the trust and the confidence in you in the first place?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. So, um, there was some, um, there's a book called The Trusted Advisor and they've got an equation for trust and there's 3 elements that build trust. The first is credibility. So it might be that you're a member of an association or you've done an MBA or then— and often they're very— I was going to say easy, but they're the easiest part of trust.

Right.

Like there's some way to qualify that you are who you say you are. The second thing is reliability. And often people do the second part of reliability really well, which is doing what they say, but they forget the first part, which is saying what you do. And particularly when you're doing it all the time, right? Um, your process is so like driving a car, you don't even know what you're doing. Um, and yet we— what we really need to do is slow that down for a new client and have a very simple 6-step process that says we're going to do this, And then we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this, and then I'm going to write you a proposal. And if you're interested in working with me, then we can work from there. How does that sound? So we, we break it down beautifully. And so then as we're stepping through that, we're seen to be reliable.

Right, because I have a process, I have a system, I'm not just winging this. Yes, this is why I know it works.

That's right. And whether it's one person doing the selling or 5 people doing the selling, if you've got a simple process that fits on one page, then anyone can use that and they can put their own flourishes around it. And the last thing that builds trust is intimacy. So getting to know your client, personalizing. And I think this part of trust is really where the sales element comes out over marketing in the sense that, um, if I know this person likes to read things first, then I'm going to send it to them. If I know they like golf, I can send them an article on golf that I come across. If I know they like flowers, like whatever it is. So as you build that intimacy, um, and you get to know them and they get to know you, you really get an opportunity to personalize, and that really, really establishes trust.

I love that. And tell me the name of that, The Trusted Advisor, you said?

The Trusted Advisor, yes.

Right. So after you get More Sales, Less Marketing, buy The Trusted Advisor.

It's an old book. Like, I think it was from 20 years ago, I think.

Right. But that's okay. It's a classic, obviously.

It's, it's Yeah, it's gold.

Now, you know that at Her Business, our tagline is do what you love every day. So I'd like to know, Ms. Fran Pratt, what are you doing in your business on a day where you were like, this is me doing what I love?

So I have a— I want to teach the world to sell in perfect harmony. That's kind kind of my tagline. So when I see people and I'm working with them and I'm coaching them and they go from this to, I can't do this, to suddenly the words are coming and I'm doing this and clients are responding to me and I just see them shine and I see them recognize that they can do this. That I literally turn people from hating it to loving it. And I know that's a massive statement. Um, it's just, it's so rewarding.

So rewarding. The book is More Sales, Less Marketing: How to Take the Yuck Out of Selling. What would you like to leave us with, Fran?

Well, I just think if there's one thing Um, that I want you to take from today is you are not your customer. So take a client's view, go out and talk to some clients, understand where they're coming from. Um, and whether they're existing clients or new potential clients, go and collect some stories so that you can really tell the story of the value you provide.

Thank you so much for being here. Congratulations again on the book. We will put the details Right in our show notes page. So do grab your copy. And I think I said this to you already, I love the COVID I love a good cover and it's a beautiful cover. Thank you.

Sell Lots.

Thank you, Fran. That was such a great and honestly refreshing interview with Fran. As small business owners, sales can be one of the most difficult things for us to learn because we can figure out the tech, we can learn to run our numbers, we can get educated on the marketing and the funnels we need, but sales can be shrouded in mystery when really sales comes down to real human connections. And sales are just so important if we're going to have a sustainable business. Now, you know you have a valuable service and you know that it will and it does help your clients. And sales, as we heard, is just about communicating how you can help that person out. How can you make their life easier, simpler, more joyful, or whatever it is that your business does? Now, If you are looking for a community of like-minded women to bounce ideas off and to have access to decades of business experience and incredible resources, then I encourage you to grab a spot on the Her Business Network waitlist. Fran is one of our lovely members, all of whom are dedicated to improving themselves, growing their businesses, and getting easy access to the information they need. But more than that, as Fran said, it's really about knowing that someone's got your back, knowing that there's somewhere to ask the hard questions of, knowing that there's somewhere where you can have a sounding board for your business. So if that sounds like you, we would love to have you inside of the network. You'll find the link to join the waitlist over at herbusinessnetwork.com and in the show notes, which I'll give you the details for in a moment. So go ahead and get a copy of the book. Go ahead and check out Fran's details and the different services that she provides, both for individuals and groups. Join us on the next episode for more inspiring stories and lessons from successful female entrepreneurs. I love doing this show for you. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate when I get a comment from you on what you enjoyed and what you implemented. And so I want to say thank you to Veronique Luchmeier, who is one of our members. She has a business called Unique Tenants Consult, and she said, "I just listened to podcast episode 245." 48, which is 8 Essential Tips for Finding Your Ideal Business Mentor. And she said, which clarified whether I should be seeking a mentor or a coach. Very insightful overview with valuable tips and many relevant factors to consider. Many thanks, Susie. Many thanks to you, Veronique. Veronique is one of our members and she's in WA and she's often hosting face-to-face events for our members there in West Australia. If you enjoyed this episode, we would love it if you would leave us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts. That is the big mama bear when it comes to podcasts. And so, um, when people are looking for something to listen to, it's great if they can see a great review. So if you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you did that. And just like I did for Veronique, I'd be very happy to not only give your business a shout out, but also to put a link in our show notes page. Our show notes are over at herbusiness.com/290. There you will find all the links to make contact with, uh, Fran Pratt and also to buy her book and more details that we've covered here today. So thank you for being here. Join me next time right here on the Her Business Podcast. Bye for now.