Episode 2: Hate selling? Here’s how to turn conversations into customers

The Small Biz Fix is your one-stop shop for actionable advice. Get insights from industry experts and real small business owners who've been there, done that, and can show you how to thrive. Tune in and learn how to launch, run, and grow your business the smart way. In terms of sales and small business, it's been a sluggish few years for small business. Operating is expensive, customers aren't buying, keeping cash flowing has been really hard, and also you're fighting for a share of your customer's wallet, right? So it's more important than ever not just to attract new customers, but also keep those that you already have. Unfortunately, there's something about selling, which we're going to talk about today, which a lot of small business owners, especially those new to entrepreneurship, just find kind of gross. So if you're a business owner listening to this and sales feels performative, manipulative, kind of icky to you, you're in the right place. This episode, we're talking with Frances Pratt, a sales coach whose specialty is working with entrepreneurs who hate selling. Fran's going to talk through common mistakes that would-be salespeople make and give us some of her best tips to help you improve your sales pipeline and bring some much-needed cash flow to your business. Later on, we're also going to talk to a small business owner who is a reformed sales hater, I might say, and get some insights into how they have turned things around for themselves. So, Fran, you've worked with many, many small business owners who hated sales, and you've managed to turn these people's attitudes around. I feel like for most people who hate sales, it's because they're approaching it the wrong way. I'd be keen to know what the most common mistake that you see business owners making that makes selling feel so bad, um, and also makes their selling bad in outcomes as well.

Yeah, so I think, um, We get in our head this kind of used car salesman, um, and we think, what do they do? They've got the gift of the gab. So they're telling, you've got to buy from me. That's what they think selling is. So either they try to do that, um, and that's not what great selling is, or they go to the polar opposite of that. And so they don't ask, they don't tell.

Mm-hmm.

And they wait for the client to ask them to buy.

Okay. Yeah. And you have this idea that you've talked about when we're preparing for this podcast called crocodile selling. Can you talk us through that a little bit?

Yeah, I love the concept of crocodile selling. So it's a way for people to really think about, again, that kind of used car salesman. So if you think about That selling is telling, that sleazy, manipulative— do those people still exist in the world today? Yes, they do, and so do crocodiles. But just because there's crocodiles still on the earth, it doesn't mean we're in the age of the dinosaur. And so it's the same with these salespeople. Absolutely, you can find them and you can point them out to me and say, look, these people do exist. And they do, but their day is done. We are way past, um, crocodile selling, and there's a whole new way of selling that's way more fun and about people and engagement.

And, and what— can you tell us a little bit about this new form of selling and why it's better than the so-called crocodile selling?

Look, crocodile selling had its place eons ago. If you think about, um, watching Mad Men and the first days of advertising and selling, Advertising has changed so much and so has sales. And so when I think and teach people about selling, I actually don't start by talking. I get them to start by listening. Sales is focused on the other person. It's focused on the buyer and it's helping them on their journey. So if we're doing that, if we're helping someone with a problem that they have or an aspiration, Then we can't help until we've listened. Because until we've listened, we haven't understood what their problem is. Because everyone's version of their problem or how they experience it is different. So listening, listening comes first.

And not telling the customer.

No, telling is— yes, you still need to ask and you still need to lead the sale. But you don't ram it down their throats.

Yeah. So it seems like selling, what it's really kind of supposed to be and what we're returning to at the moment is you're there to be of service to a customer. You're not just there to ram your product down their throat, right? It's about listening to them, sort of truly understanding their desires, their pain points, and trying to help them. Let's say you wanted to move away from this crocodile selling or selling by telling approach or whatever you were doing before that's not working, and you want to move towards actually helping your customer or your client. Where do you start?

So often when, and this is exactly where I start with my clients, I really encourage them to go and talk to their existing clients. What is it that someone has bought from you? What motivated them to talk to you in the first place? What have they tried? What What things were they really interested in? Why did they buy? Why did they say yes? What was that motivation for them? And then don't stop there. Go and discover then, well, what else did they get out of working with you?

Hmm.

So for example, you know, you might be selling tinted windows, say. And the person's thinking, okay, well, you know, then it's going to be easier on my eyes. But they might not have realized that it's much cooler as well.

And let's say, let's talk about that sales journey for a second or that buying journey. Let's say you've got that, you're up to that first step where you've engaged with the customer and you really want to start to get to know their pain points, what they want, etc., etc. How do you actually gather this information from customers? Um, we've already talked about engaging with past customers, but you said like every customer journey is different, right? How do you approach that with a new customer, say?

So I've got a really simple formula that I use that's called you, me, and the next step. Okay, I'm excited.

Let's get into it.

Yeah, so if the you component is about the client So if you've got a meeting with them or a phone call or whatever it is, 80% of the time should be about them. So discover, get curious, be a journalist.

Cool.

And really dig into, well, what brings them here? What have they tried? How would they describe the problem? What does that mean for them? What's it stopping them from doing? So you think about all the things that this might stop them from doing, feeling. So we want the emotions, we want the tactics, but we also want the logic. And then don't stop there. Then you can get them to think about, okay, so once you've got tinted windows, and I don't know why I'm on the tinted window story, but anyway. Once you've got tinted windows, what will that feel like? Get them to think about the solution in practice. Um, so, you know, I suppose when I'm talking to people, I say, just imagine being able to easily and wonderfully being able to talk to, convert clients, you know, that, that you love.

Mm-hmm.

And they go, oh my goodness, you know. So we want to future, um, manage that as well. So we get them thinking about What the solution looks, feels, and smells like. So that's all you. That's about them and leading them on that journey.

Mm-hmm.

Then the me component isn't a laundry list of everything I've done since I was born. It's then me applying my knowledge and my skills to their problem, their definition of the problem. So what that sounds like is, You might say, okay, so you mentioned that this and this happened. Well, how I deal with that is, etc., etc. So you're actually applying what you know. It's an application to their problem. So in many ways, even though you're talking about yourself, you're actually still talking about them and their problem. And lastly, and most importantly, is the next step. So in my process, often when I'm working with consulting clients, I'll send them a proposal. So I want to let them know that. So I might say, okay, you know, thank you so much. Here's what I've learned from you. So I summarize. Here's what we talked about as a potential solution. The next step is for me to put that into a proposal. Given that I do that and get that to you by Friday, when should we talk?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. So it's a bit like a chess game, you know?

Mm-hmm.

You, you don't just have the next step, you have the next 3 or 4 steps. And they say, oh, maybe talk to me on a Tuesday, on Tuesday. And then I say, great, what time? They say 10 o'clock. And I say, fantastic. So the reason that's really important, particularly people who feel awkward with selling, is that Now I don't have to think, oh, it's too soon, it's too pink, it's too yellow, it's too Friday, it's too whatever. I know that Tuesday at 10 o'clock, I'm gonna call that client and they're expecting my call. So the whole timbre of my voice, the way I approach that call isn't, oh, am I bothering you? It's, hey, it's 10 o'clock on Tuesday like we discussed.

Mm-hmm.

I have permission. And so it makes me feel different. And because I feel different, I sound different. And because I sound different and sound different, better, more confident, then they're more likely to buy from me. So it's all of these little things that add up to not forcing anyone to do anything, but just helping them on their buying journey and just being there to lead that dance.

And so let's say that you've got a bit of a connection going with a customer, right? And you've got someone to be interested in your products or services. What are some other things that you could be thinking about aside from just, can I sell them this thing? Like, what about, you know, are there questions that you might ask yourself to understand maybe whether someone is a fit for your product or service, for instance? And what if they're not?

Yeah, so I think Whilst you're asking them things, you're not only assessing, but you're also advising. So let's say someone really needs to see a doctor. So say I'm a massage therapist or something, and someone comes in with a broken leg, right? So I know that's a bit dramatic, but clearly I am not qualified to help them.

Mm-hmm.

And the truth is, That when we're being honest with ourselves and honest with the person sitting in front of us or on the phone, we know when we're not the right fit. So just say it.

Mm-hmm.

Hey, you know, I know that you're sharing about how sore your leg is and it's dangling in a funny way. Um, you know what, maybe it's actually better for you to go and see a doctor. Can I help you get there? Okay, so, or, um, I happen to know a really good doctor, or, you know, do you have a regular doctor that you go to? So there's lots of ways to, to introduce that, but I don't do it in a way that's definitive in the sense of—

Mm-hmm.

I try to explore that with them. Hey, it sounds to me like this and this and this, so what that—

what that—

what I'm hearing is... Which isn't necessarily what they're saying. Um, and I think that's one of the things with communication.

And while we're on the topic of communication, um, I think a lot of people maybe struggle to bring up their products or services in a salesy sort of conversation in a way that feels authentic and that doesn't really feel awkward to them. Do you have any tips for our listeners on how to, to actually bring up your products and services in the first place?

Absolutely. So if I'm walking into a sales conversation, the first thing I do— and let's say I'm at the point where I think it's appropriate to talk about what I do— I just ask a simple question. Would it be okay if I told you about my coaching program? Or would it be okay if, you know, um, it's— or it sounds to me like this, I've got something that might be able to help you. See how I don't use, again, definitive words? So softer words like might or is it okay if, or if I sent you a short video about what I do, would you watch it? So it's all about the dance of asking and permission.

Mm-hmm.

But the other thing that I think is really useful for people is to flag it. So customers know that, that they're there to explore something with you. So you say, okay, um, you know, thanks for walking in my shop, or thanks for talking to me today about my services. What I'd like to do is— the first thing I'm going to do is talk to you and listen, because before I can see whether something is useful for you or not, Mm-hmm. And I can actually help you, I need to understand more about you. So that's the first part. Then once, um, I get a good handle on that, what we're going to do is explore if I can help you or not. And then lastly, I'm going to talk to you about the product or service if that's relevant. Um, and so you kind of flag it at the front of the conversation.

Mm-hmm.

And so then everyone can can relax because we can say, oh, they're not going to ask me to buy until over there, and it relaxes people.

So we've sort of talked about getting a customer interested, how to bring up your products and services naturally. Um, in most instances, I'm assuming there's either going to be a positive or negative reaction to that. Um, I want it or I don't really want it. If the customer's bringing up objections Um, how do you handle those?

Okay. So first of all, um, I don't use the word handle because you handle a snake, you handle a problem. And let's think about what an objection actually means. The objection actually means that they're thinking about buying it. So you think about if you walk into a rug store, right? And you're like, oh, I'm not sure where that's going to fit. Or I'm not sure whether that's gonna go with my color scheme, or whatever. Those are objections, but what do they actually mean in the buying psychology? They mean that someone is thinking about what that rug would look like on their floor. So the first thing I wanna say to you is objections are your best friend.

Mm-hmm.

So I want you to treat them like that. So first and foremost, Just say thank you because not everybody is, is okay to bring up the objection. And so you need to be grateful. Um, so first thing to say is thank you. Second thing is to clarify. Make sure you understand what that objection actually means for them and then answer it. So let's think about the rug. Oh, so, um, Have you measured the floor? And they go, oh no, I forgot to do that. Okay, well, if we did it in steps, you know, so there's ways to get them to think about the space. If they've got a question about decor, well, do you have any photos of it on your phone? So there's ways that we can encourage them to think about that or explore that. So that's what we want to do. And then lastly, we need to check back in. Have I answered that for you? Because when you treat objections with love and kindness and grace and gratitude, then they will share the next one and the next one and the next one. And very often, the first thing we bring up is a surface-level objection.

Oh.

Oh, I'm not sure I like it. And then If we can deal with that beautifully, then they'll go, okay, actually my real objection is.

And what is the real objection usually? Like when you say there's a surface level, what can we expect when they start to go deeper out of curiosity?

So it's, I think that the surface level ones are things like price, value, those sort of things. Often the real objection comes down to what the person um, is worried about for themselves. So I'm worried about that I'll get a gym membership, but I just won't go. So that's not really a price objection. That's the question then is, how do I, as the gym owner, help this person to remember to come?

Mm-hmm.

And how do I— so see how that's a completely different thing than saying it's too expensive? Because if you go every day or every second day, it's not expensive. It's only expensive if you pay for it and don't use it. And so, so if, if I was in a gym and someone said— imagine me in the gym, haha. No, no.

I can.

And someone said to me, oh, it's too expensive. I said, oh, okay, that's okay. Tell me, when you're thinking about Coming to the gym, what sort of— how many times a week were you thinking that it would be good to come? And then they could say, oh, once a week. You say, okay, well, what are you trying to achieve? And they go, oh, I want to lose 20 kilos. You say, okay, well, if you come once a week, that might be hard. You know, actually, it's, um, you know, studies show that 3 times a week is optimum for someone of your age who wants to lose 20 kilos. So now you're educating them. They might not buy from you, but at least they won't go and buy a gym membership and thinking going once a week is actually helpful. So you've still helped them.

Yeah.

And what I'm seeing as a trend throughout all of these different parts of the buying process that we're going through, the trend is that you're helping them in all of these examples. It's like you're solving a problem together, and I'm assuming that You know, even if someone— even if your products and services aren't a fit for this potential customer right now, if you've helped them out in the long term, they're much more likely to return to you when it is a good fit.

Yeah, absolutely. And if it's not a good fit now, how can you keep them on your— on their radar? So, you know, do you have a newsletter? Do you have a customer, uh, you know, Let's go back to the gym idea. Maybe they're not ready to do 3 times a week, but maybe you've got a free week coming up in April or something that they— hey, we're actually running a week where people just like you could work out what it is like to come 3 times a week. Is that— would that be of interest to you?

Oh.

And maybe they say yes and maybe they say no, but See how you're still addressing what you're offering them to their particular problem.

Now I want to talk money with you, um, because I know that this is the part of selling that can really squeak people out. When it's time to talk money, how do you actually bring this up and go about it in a way that doesn't feel awkward for you or the customer?

So I think firstly, you know, if we've flagged it at the front, like we said before, if we flagged that That, you know, this is the point in the conversation when we're going to do that. That's the first thing I would advise people. The second thing is, before I talk about price, I review the conversation with the client because price is what you pay, but value is what you get. What we need to do is again summarize what we've heard In terms of value. So here's what I've heard you say. You know, thank you so much. We're going to talk about the offer now. Let me just summarize the key points. What I've you know that I've heard from you today. You said you had a problem with this blah blah blah. You're experiencing this. You're doing this. You're hoping for this, etc., etc. And then we talked about how I might help you with that. And that was this and this and this and this. Um, and so my recommendation about how we would start is this piece of work, whatever that is.

Cool.

So you're not talking about price until you've laid out what their problem is, how you've talked about addressing that problem, and then we talk about what that looks like. And one of the elements of what that looks like is price. Because if you think about it, they've got to invest their time, their effort, potentially other staff members if it's a course that they're going on or something like that. So there's lots of elements that they're investing into a good result, one of which is money.

Hmm.

So we want them excited. We don't want to push them into something that they feel bad about. We want them excited and engaged with getting the value that we've discussed through the solution component. At the end of the day, we get used to feeling awkward about a certain thing until we've practiced it enough. And unfortunately, or fortunately for me, I've had lots of practice, but I say to people that sales is an art form that you can only learn face-to-face with people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I can teach you as much as, you know, I can teach you till I'm blue in the face. But unless you go and try it out and fail at it and do it well and all of the things, you're not going to get better at it. And I just want to encourage people, you know, For those of you who have kids or have seen little kids who are just learning to walk, when a little kid falls flat on their bum, no one says to them, oh, that's it, you'll never walk. You know, that just seems ludicrous, doesn't it? But yet, if we have one sales conversation and that fails and it bombs, right? And I've done it. And we never have another sales conversation, then of course you're not going to get better at it. So give yourself some grace and some latitude. And share with your customer, hey, I'm trying some new sales conversations. Would you help me understand if I'm doing it well or not?

Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, there's so much value in just being human with them, just being authentic, right? Like throughout this whole process, what you've been describing, it's really just leveling with someone and going, hey, I have this product, may or may not be a fit for you. Let's see, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

Really interesting. And with what you were talking about in terms of Talking money and cost, right? I suppose, you know, if you've really done that human connection bit correctly and you've understood your customer or client's problems, then you can talk about this in a way that actually frames those problems as more expensive than your solution, right? So—

Yes, a return on investment. That's right. So if you think about return on investment, people will pay for things that increase revenue, things that decrease costs, and things that decrease risk.

Mm-hmm.

And when I talk about risk with people, it's not necessarily just like falling over risk. It's if you're talking to someone who's an employee, well, what's the real risk of them not succeeding? They could lose their job. Or they could look like an idiot in front of their team. Or, you know, there's emotional and soft benefits and risks that we need to be aware of as well.

Yeah.

And I mean, like, I don't know, maybe the emotional toll of not having a carpet on my floor is also playing— the cold feet in the morning, right? That's also a factor in my decision to buy a carpet. And Ultimately, the price of the carpet doesn't outweigh the benefit of having that on my floor, having guests come over and say, oh wow, what a lovely carpet, you know?

Yeah, exactly. And, and, you know, and you get up and you, and you walk on it and just with your toes and you're feeling it and you're having your first coffee for the day and, oh, it's just luxury.

Wouldn't you want this carpet in your life?

That's it.

Um, so let's say that you've made a sale, right? And you know, you've exchanged money, the customer agrees to give you money, everyone leaves feeling good about the arrangement, but the sales process doesn't end there, right? Um, we know that retention is cheaper than acquisition. How do you get people to come back after that first sale?

So I think, um, I want you to be thinking about what the customer journey looks like beyond the first sale. So are you an accountant, in which case, you know, there's tax returns. And so what's the rhythm of a client look like? Then what I want you to do is say, first of all, I want you to segue. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be working with you. I'm so excited to see your toes on the carpet.

Mm-hmm.

That sounds a bit weird, but, um, I'm so excited. Um, what's going to happen next is, and you lay that out so that they understand what the delivery, um, points are. And then what I want you to do is deliver, but also have a check-in point. So let's say in 3 months' time, we're going to go and check how that carpet's going. And maybe we have a free stain removal in the first 3 months or something, because that would be the worst, right? You get a brand new carpet, your toes and your coffee, and then the dog runs under your feet and you, your coffee goes all over the carpet. Oh my God, that's a nightmare.

Mm-hmm.

So imagine if in the first 3 months you can call the carpet shop and they'll come and fix it for you. Wouldn't that be amazing? So what, what are the other touch points that are logical and add value to your customers? And what amazing stories that would bring.

So when you're already having that initial sale, you want to be presenting ways to come back to your customers, in other words. Is that right?

Yes.

And I know there's lots of other ways to do this, like people have CRMs where they'll, you know, send an automated email to someone after, you know, X amount of months. Like in our last episode, we were talking about the benefit of like a post-purchase community. So some people will use Instagram, for instance, to sort of nurture this community of people who've bought their product, and now they want to still be involved with the brand. Like, what are some, some secrets to help people actually still want to be involved with you after they've made that transaction with you for the first time?

Well, I think I'd go back to what we talked about right at the beginning. If you understand your clients, think about your 3 favorite clients that have gotten a lot of value from you and just keep coming back. They're just the most beautiful, perfect client. I'd pick on them nicely, and I'd go and ask them, well, what would a good rhythm look like? What else could I be doing? What other value did you— get out of it? Have you got any ideas about— so, you know, just think about that customer journey not as a, um, a linear thing, but more like a circular, um—

Wow.

It's a community, it's an economy, it's in and out. It's not, it's not transactional. And so, um, if you can map that out, then you can say to people, hey, You know, the clients that love us the most find that they like us to touch base with them every 3 months. Would that be okay if I put you, you know, in that program as well?

Yeah, sure.

Right. So, so what does that piece of information tell people? It tells people that you really get to know the clients that love you. It's an invitation for them to be part of that group, which sounds fun. And, and—

Secret club.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're nurturing them to be just, you know, to get as much value out of the product or service, just like the clients you love to work with the best. So it's better for them, better for you, easier. And the more you do this, The tighter, um, tighter in a good way, um, the tighter you'll feel with your community.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for, um, chatting to us about sales. And I love that the spin that you have on this— not the spin, that sounds a bit manipulative— but the, the take that you have on sales where it's, it's so the opposite of manipulative. It's, it's so like human and authentic and, you know, everybody caring for each other. I love that. And I hope that's really encouraging for our listeners who might still have the idea of sales being, you know, Mad Men or the dad from Matilda or something. So thank you very much, Fran, for chatting with us. Now that we've talked to a sales expert about how you can turn your sales shyness around, let's meet an entrepreneur who has actually done this. Jasmine Parasram runs 2 businesses by herself. A design studio called Jasmine Designs and an educational community for freelancers called Creative Business Kitchen. These days, Jazz says that she's super comfortable selling her services, but it hasn't always been this way. Today we're going to talk exactly how she got over her sales fears. Jazz, welcome to The Small Biz Fix.

Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here.

Yay, it's excellent to have you on. Um, so Jazz, you're a very successful freelancer and you're someone who Seems very comfortable making a sale and pretty much just talking business in general. From what I understand though, it hasn't always been this way. I'd love to hear what selling used to be like for you when you first started your business journey. Can you tell me a little bit about what sales was like for you back then?

Yeah, absolutely. So when I first kind of took the two-footed leap into freelancing from employment, I knew that I was actually someone who interviewed really well. But the problem or the difference between interviewing for a job and sales for a client is that it's really about what you're bringing to the transformation, what you're giving that person on the other side of the conversation, rather than hire me for this particular role. So when I first started, I was so used to the employee mindset and I had to get really, really confident about what I was bringing to these conversations, but also what kind of skill level I was bringing to— The potential of working together. And so, in those early days, I was a little bit shy, I was a little bit awkward. I've always been kind of an extrovert anyway, and I can talk to many people. I grew up in a butcher shop. My dad has butcher shops in Adelaide, and so, having conversations across the counter about what you did over the weekend or what kind of meat they were buying that day and what the occasion that they were cooking it for was pretty normal. But as soon as you change that into a sales conversation that is selling your skills and your abilities and the outcomes that you're providing for those clients, it can sometimes be a little bit awkward or scary because you're so conscientious of not overpromising and then underdelivering or coming across like you're a know-it-all or things like that. So in those first times that I was trying to sell myself, I actually probably did one of two things. I either avoided the sales conversation completely and went, oh, no, no, no, no, I don't want to have a Conversation about how I can help you. Just hire me and we'll see, which is not really instilling confidence. Or I would rush through them. I'd be like, okay, so I could do this for you. It sounded like a disclaimer at the end of a government ad. It's like I just wanted to get to the other side and rush through it, which again didn't instill confidence. And so then when I started picking that up, unfortunately, I swung the complete other way, and I started creating awkward silences. And it was not. kind of flowing really nicely. And I also got a little bit apologetic in the way that I would show up. So like, I'm sorry that I have to charge you for my genius, which all of these are just not instilling confidence in the client to be able to hire me. And I think that a lot of the time when we are in those positions, we revert back to what we're taught about money. And so, from a very, very young age, we're all taught— like, you know, when you've got your Um, little checkout when you're a toddler and you've got a little playset and everything, and you see the dollar sign on the very fake fruit and you go, okay, can I afford that?

Mm-hmm.

And so we're taught from a very, very young age that if we see something with a dollar sign, the first thing to think is, can we afford that? But when we're pricing our services, when we're selling our services, we aren't actually the ones paying the bill. We're not paying for that. So we need to switch our mindset to we could probably be the one that provides this value. We're not footing the bill, they are. And the other, probably the last thing that I would say is that I think I was preemptively discounting as well. Like, it kind of goes hand in hand with that apologetic pricing, but I was finding myself going, oh, um, it's going to be $500, but you know, it's okay, just pay $250. Like, that's all of these sort of things just stack up and, you know, one of them by themselves would be passable and deal-withable. But if you stack them all on top, it just makes for a really risky decision for any client to buy. And so no wonder I struggled with sales in the beginning.

Yeah, that's so interesting because it sort of seems like those 2 things go hand in hand. Sales feels bad and your selling is bad, right?

Yes.

Like when one usually accompanies the other.

For sure.

Really interesting. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners will relate to your experiences or your early experiences selling. Um, and also, when we— before we, we sat down to have this chat, you mentioned that you had some sort of preconceived ideas about what sales were, um, some mindset issues that you had to work through. Um, I'd love to know how you sort of changed the way you thought about sales in order to become comfortable with selling your services. Yeah, absolutely.

So I broke it down into kind of like 3 bite-sized things that I had to change. The first one was changing the word sell and changing it for the word help. Because service providers, but also any kind of business owner, didn't go into the business that they have created to just make money. Yes, there is a definite element of, like, wanting to make money and enjoying the pursuit of making money in the entrepreneurial spirit. But a lot of people got into the business to help. I really want to encourage anyone who sits there and goes, oh, I undercharge because I want to help. I really want to encourage you to say that that's actually probably more detrimental than you think because your help is strongest from a position of abundance, but also from generosity. If you're wanting to be generous, you're already being generous with giving your help to that person. for a fee. You're helping them regardless of whether you charge lots or little. Secondly, I would say disconnecting from the idea that salespeople are bad and manipulative. There is incredible sales. I've had conversations with some people who have this ability to sell so beautifully that you don't even notice it.

Mm-hmm.

And you become comfortable with them. And it's so, so important to surround yourself with really good examples of salespeople. And then finally, I want to really instill that in conversations, when you're having a conversation with a person— and this is something that is probably the biggest transformation for me— is that when I'm sitting across from someone who's asking for my expertise, that actually makes me the expert in that conversation. It's about if they have chosen to ask me the question, then I am the expert in that decision. And it's not my responsibility to solve every single one of their problems, including budget ones. It is my responsibility to guide them through the process of working out whether what I can offer them is actually going to help solve their problem, and then working out what happens from there. And none of that is having the perfect price, the perfect pitch, the perfect sell. It's just getting curious.

Yep. And this is exactly what we just talked about with our sales expert Frances. And she was talking about you, me, and the next step as one of the rough ways that she helps people sort of structure their sales conversations. So you clearly have a lot of confidence around your ability to sell now, and you're a great speaker. I want to talk exactly how you went from that awkward, shy salesperson to the way you are now. How exactly did you improve your sales process? Was this something that happened on the job for you, like in the moment of actually selling to your clients? Or is this something that you, you know, even like practiced in the mirror? Or did you attend some classes on it? Like, what was the process of improving for you?

In an ideal world, I'd be able to tell you that I practiced in the mirror and that things went really well and that every single time that I had a conversation with someone, I sold to them or I learned from it. No, I didn't. I made a hell of a lot of mistakes and made a lot of embarrassing decisions. That is a lot of the way that I've gotten here, but I've gotten here over time. The great thing about that is I can look back from a kind of bird's eye view and look back and go, okay, well, if I struggled with all of these, how can I make it so that it was more successful or easier for the Jazz that I was 7 years ago? So if I was to go back and give myself the advice, I would say that one—

Right.

Most conversations are actually, when you're feeling unconfident, are just a lack of information or experience. And so, if it's a lack of information, ask more questions. And if it's a lack of experience, work out if it's macro or micro experience. So, macro experience is more about like, I've done this exact thing before and I know exactly how it works, and so I can do it again. Whereas micro experience might be the small little things like doing a paint test to work out if a color's right or doing a small part of the job so that it informs the rest of the job. Understanding that when you're unconfident, is it a lack of information or a lack of experience that's leading to that discomfort from confidence? Then, when it comes to the act of it, there's very much an importance in creating rituals around the way that you sell. For instance, if I know I'm going to be in a room that I'm going to be conversing with a lot of people, I have a certain few things that I do. I always dress in my brand colors because my brand colors are my— if I'm not feeling confident, if I wrap myself in my brand colors, I feel like I'm embodying my brand. Same with my glasses. So these— spoiler alert to anyone who has met me before— I don't actually wear glasses. These are glasses that I have that are blue light glasses for when I'm working.

Wow.

But they make me show up differently. So it's kind of like you find the rituals or things that you know you want to do to be feeling confident in the moment. And then just preparing sort of stuff. So if you know that eventually it will, like if the ideal outcome from a sales conversation is that they get on a call, have the call link ready so that you can text it to them. If the idea is that they take your business card, have your business card ready or have some kind of way for them to start making that connection. And you might find yourself looking for, um, like pre-done scenarios or sales scripts, and they're good to have in your back pocket, but you don't need to be like word perfect. You do not need to run a sales script because the likelihood is that that sales script is set up for a specific conversation to run in a very specific way. And I would even say 10 times out of 10, it's not going to run that way because otherwise you're going to have some someone tell you their deepest, darkest, saddest secrets, and you're gonna be like, that sounds great, would you like to book a call? Like, that's not what happens. We're humans, so we've got to have like some scripts and some pre-run scenarios in our back pocket of how it could go. But ultimately— and this is— if you get nothing else from this podcast— one, silly, but two, if you get nothing else from this podcast— The doing is part of the research. The run is part of the research because you can't think yourself wealthy. You can't read yourself fast at running. You have to do the doing in that process.

Mm-hmm.

And so, understand that your first sales conversation will be a pancake. You will throw it out in the bin. It won't be worthwhile. But the next one will get better. The next one will get better. The next one will get better. And even if you are a really analytical mind like mine, You might go back and say, okay, how do I wish this went differently? How do I wish that I could have done things differently? And then make an action plan, even if it's 3 things. You're like, next time I'm going to make sure that I create some kind of mnemonic device to remember their names. So not at the end of the conversation, I'm like, and so if you were— sorry, what was your name again?

Mm-hmm.

And that's like little things like that. We're just doing 1% changes and 1% changes over the course of time can lead to probably 10 to 20% changes overall. from where you are to where you want to be.

And I wonder, you know, we're talking about we want to be human, right? We don't want to be running off the perfect sales script. One of the things we talked about with Fran in the first half of this episode was that actually you might want to own your mistakes or own the fact that you're new to this, because that could also build rapport with whoever you're talking to as well. You know, just leveling with them, being human, you know, just interacting like you would anyone.

Yeah, for sure. And truthfully, I think that there's definitely merit in saying, look, this is where I'm at, and it might come through to someone who can understand where you're at. I also want to say, don't swing that too far in the opposite direction of just being like, I've not been doing this very well, or I've sucked at this, or everything like that.

Yes.

Be truthful, but don't be self-deprecating because that actually doesn't really help you. I've See, I've actually done that personally in an earlier interaction with a client. I actually brought my bad client baggage into a new client relationship and told her, my last client thought that I was this, this, this, and this.

Oh, yeah.

And she told me really straightaway, she's like, but I don't think that yet. Please don't place that in my brain so that I choose to think that. And so, it's really, really important to recognize that you're a beginner. And acknowledge it, but don't make it— don't let it make you shrink. Don't shrink to fit the space because you feel like you need to, or diminish. Or I often say whenever I talk to people and I notice it, I said, please don't shrink to fit here. We want you to grow. We want you to take up space so that we can take it up with you.

And I love how a lot of the things that you've been talking about today, Jazz, are about showing up with confidence, not only for yourself, but because That is what will make your client want to buy from you, right?

So much.

So speaking of confidence, the money part of the sales process is one that I think a lot of people struggle to handle with confidence, right? You mentioned that the sales process, the money part in particular, used to be quite difficult for you. You know, you would, you know, you view your services as a cost rather than value added. You would even apply discounts preemptively, which I think a lot of people who've worked as a sole trader, myself included, have done that before. When it comes to discussing the bill, how do you approach this presently in the current day?

So at the moment, the most important thing for me is that they're not— don't enter it in that you think that they're trying to get a discount or you think that they're trying to get you for a bargain. A lot of the time, I think freelancers, especially sole traders, All of us, we do get into a bit of a mindset where we think that everyone's out to get us. It's not helpful, but it's human because we do see a lot of examples of that. Ultimately, I want you to recognize that when you enter into these conversations with these clients, they're asking you a price not so that they can try and swindle you or discount you. They're asking because they genuinely don't know. They're actually asking for information. And if they do come back and say, that's a bit out of our budget, that's not an invitation necessarily to go slash your prices. It's an invitation for you to have a conversation about what it would look like if you did less. And if you're not willing to do less, don't be available for it. If you're not willing to do less of the deliverables— I have a whole heap of canvases up in my studio here with little, like, quips to try and remember the things that are really important in these conversations. And I have one right in front of me at the moment that says, negotiate the deliverables, not the dollars. So if you come in and say, I've got a branding package for $5,000 with all the bells and whistles, maybe they don't need all of the bells and whistles. Maybe they just need the bells. And what would that look like? And if you are someone who sits there and goes, I don't want to do just a logo, then don't be available for it. That's totally fine. You set the boundaries and the expectations of what you show up as. And then you can have conversations around what the monetary element of that is. And for some interactions, there's an element of barter or exchange with currencies other than currency. So if you've got— I've got one job that I did which has resulted in me having 14 dresses because I was doing illustrations for dresses, 3 different collections. And so I now get to wear my artwork. As a kind of an enjoyment piece. And so, recognizing that when you do have those conversations that have currency as a different part of the conversation, that it's totally fine. You've just got to know what you're available for and what you're not available for. And when you are setting that up, you set the value. Your first price that you deliver isn't actually about being the perfect price. It's about you setting the standard of the value that you deliver and then negotiating from there, because then you're both working from the same center point and working our way up, down, left, right, whatever that looks like. And you don't want to find yourself in a place where you feel desperate, you've got a desperation or a need. Like, for instance, oh, I need this client. If this client doesn't say yes, I'm going to have to go back to my barista job. Like, that's a really harsh place for you to go from.

Mm-hmm.

So, try not to put yourself in that position to begin with where it's all or nothing. You have to be comfortable with the idea that you might have to walk away and not be the right fit for this particular client. But there are so many clients out there. There is no doubt in my mind that if you don't land the client today, that there's someone else out there who has a higher budget but a similar need for what you're delivering that you can then go and pitch that genius to. And so, if you're approaching it so that you are both equals, so that you set the value and you negotiate and develop from there, and you recognize that you need to be okay with them not choosing you or walking away or not choosing you this time, then that's going to set you up for better, more healthy conversations around money that won't make you feel like you want to vomit.

Oh, I love that. So many words of truth there.

Thank you. So good.

And I mean, it's, it's, you know, um, you've been in the business for, I think it's about 15 years, um, you told me, which is clear. Um, and I'm interested to know, you know, over the years, I assume you've gotten customers come back again and again and again, right? How do you retain customers after that initial sale?

Yeah, I am very proud to say that I have not done a single billboard nor paid ad nor anything that I have spent on marketing for my freelance business. That has never been something that I've ever done. Everything has been based on word of mouth, of relationships, and of rapport. So every time that I have a conversation with anyone, I'm thinking about how I can help them in the future, whether that be with my genius or whether that be with connecting someone in my network as well. And so relationship building is one of those big, big pillars for for what I do in my business. Ultimately, whenever I'm working or having conversations with new clients, existing clients, or anyone in between, I keep coming back to, we want to ask what they want because we need to get curious. Actually, if you're worried what you serve isn't right for them, ask. Ask the question. Ask for what they want. Then you offer what they actually need because sometimes those two are very different things. They might be asking for one thing, but you can see that they actually need something else Either before or after the process, and then deliver what they're dreaming of. Because if you can bring that to the table, it is going to have— it's not even going to be linked to the price. Because if they've got something that they're dreaming of that they'd love to create, they'd love to build, but they haven't been able to do it themselves, whether it because of time constraints, of skill level, or of capabilities or belief in themselves, then that is going to be so much more valuable. than any dollar amount that you put on it.

Thank you so much, Jazz, for coming on the podcast. It was an amazing conversation and so good to have someone like you on to share your sales experience. So thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. And I also want to kind of put a thank you back to you. It's really, really important that we find people who let us share our genius and shine a light on that, because it's a good reminder that if you can find someone who can bring your genius out of you and can make you feel like you're bringing something to the conversation, They're the most important conversations that we're having.

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