S4E03 - Sales Secrets for Introverts That Actually Work Interview with Frances Pratt

Welcome back to Marketing Automation Made Simple, the podcast that helps you save time, scale faster, and sell smarter with the power of automation. If you're a marketer, business owner, or someone who wears all the hats, you've probably said at some point, I'm just not good at sales. You're not alone. And today's episode is going to shift that mindset because here's the truth. Selling shouldn't feel awkward or pushy. When it's done right, it feels natural, like helping. To help us unpack this, I am joined by Frances Pratt, founder of Methysan. Frances has spent years helping teams and individuals reframe how they think about sales, not as a skill for the select few, but as a human conversation rooted in value and trust. Frances, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here.

Thank you so much. Yeah, no, it's great. I love both sales and marketing. So yeah, really looking forward to our conversation.

Hopefully we'll love automation too.

Oh yeah, of course.

Yes. Um, I wanted to ask you, I meet so many business owners through my consulting and coaching in terms of selecting CRMs and tools, and I know I always find it hard to look at automation or technology in isolation of the whole business. So I often focus on the sales part as well as marketing part because there's some elements, I mean, the stuff that salespeople don't like to do, we can automate those things. But I do find that a lot of business owners, you know, they are very good at what they do. They're experts. They run their business. They're really great. But when it comes to sales, they feel uncomfortable or they just feel like it's awkward. Why do you think so many people feel uncomfortable Yeah, that's a, that's a great starting point.

And I, I feel like people have just got the wrong end of the stick with selling, and that's probably because they've had bad experiences themselves. So we've all had that experience where we've either walked into a shop or onto a car yard, or, and this person has been, you know, you can see the dollar signs in their eyes and you can see them just looking at your wallet and trying to push you into whatever it is that's good for them. Um, and we've all had those experiences. And then in our brain, we think that's what selling is. And so then when we come to sell in our own business, we want to be the opposite of that person. And so what we end up doing is being— we don't ask, we don't do the vital steps in sales because we don't want to be pushy. But actually what we need to do is change the way we think about selling. Because once we realize that selling is nothing to do with me, it's actually everything to do with the client and their journey. And then my job is to be the guide, the Sherpa, the yellow brick road, and, and help my client traverse that journey and make a good decision, not for me, But for them. So if I'm selling sales help, then I want my client to understand what it is I can help them with, you know, what does that look like, all of those sort of things. And so it's really client-focused.

So is this what led you to start Matisen?

Yeah, well, I've been selling for nearly 30 years. Can you believe it? I know, right? And I've been running MetaSan for nearly 15 years.

Wow.

I know it's crazy, but I've always been really good at selling. Um, and I spent, you know, 17 or so years in IT sales in all different industries for all different companies. selling to all different people, and I really loved it. And then, um, I decided to start my own business, and I actually didn't want to do anything to do with selling. I was over it, right? I'd had enough. Um, but then people kept coming to ask me, hey Fran, you know, I, I want to do, um, this and I want to do that. And I thought, okay, well, I'll help because I don't have anything else to do in my company. So So I ended up really loving it, teaching people how to sell. And then what happened was people would say to me, oh, Fran, you ask the best questions, or you phrase that really beautifully, or, oh, I never— you know, that's the step that I've been missing. And so instead of just accepting that, I got really curious and I said, well, tell me, why are my questions better? What was it about that introduction that you really loved? And so my clients actually helped me unpack what great selling looks like. And then out of that, I've been able to build a sales training module or modules that help people unpack that for themselves.

Perfect. Oh, right. That's an amazing experience, 30 years in sales. And I think everybody, if they're in business, an entrepreneur, This is like a must-have skill in business. But there are so many myths around sales. You would have come across a lot of them. Uh, what's the biggest myth about sales you'd like to bust?

Oh, okay. So I think the biggest myth that I see is that you have to be an extrovert to be in sales. So many people think that, uh, and it's actually not true. So I've met wonderful, highly introverted, highly analytical people who are awesome salespeople. So, um, when I'm working with people, I encourage them to do 2 things. One, be yourself. So if you're really nerdy or, you know, you tell funny jokes or you're a bit cheeky or you're loud or you're not loud or whatever it is that you are, And whatever you're really good at, lean into that and do that. But the second rule is get over yourself, because sales is one of those disciplines that actually exists in the face of the client. You cannot learn to sell from a book, even though you could buy my book. But in that, I encourage you to, to go out and, and try these things in front of your client. Because what you're actually looking for in the sales arena or when you're interacting with clients is their reaction. So I might say something a certain way and I get what you— what I call the lean-in factor. You know that point where people go, oh, you know, that's what you're looking for. You're looking for that emotional reaction to what you're saying so that you better understand what it is your clients are are buying from you and why?

So true. Like, I'm thinking from a marketing perspective, I think the best marketers are also introverts. So even though there are some extroverts, they like to run workshops and webinars, but those, even YouTube, even podcasting for me, I find it's easier to do it as an introvert. I prefer the podcasting video rather than being in front of an audience. Still achieving the same kind of outcome, but delivering it in a different way that suits me.

Yeah.

And I know that from a sales perspective, when I meet with business owners, there are kind of 2 elements. Well, I'm thinking 2, but you might tell me more. There's like an outbound sales and there is an inbound sales.

Do you think they're very different that people who do sales in those Um, well, they can be, but to me, ultimately, great selling is about honoring the way that comes. You know, the lead comes to you, that person comes to you. So if that's inbound or via referral or something like that, you need to honor that and honor the person who's, who's led them to you. to you. If it's outbound, that takes a slightly different skill set, but that doesn't mean it needs to be a different person. But again, I think we need to honor the work that goes into that because it's not just throwing spaghetti at a wall. It's actually having that hypothesis about what your problem is, putting that out there, whether that's to an inbound or out, you know, it doesn't really matter in one sense. You've got to say, hey, here's the problem that we solve. Do you have that problem? That's got to be the starting point for all interactions with clients. And then I think, I think one of the things that people think about selling is that once the client said yes to us, oh, we don't need to sell them anymore. And one of the chapters in my book is called Close the Back Door or Shut the Back Door because so many people forget to sell to their existing clients, and particularly in the services arena, if we forget to sell and remind people of the value over time, then they forget why they're paying for us. And if the only piece of evidence that they get on a monthly basis or weekly basis or whatever it is for you is an invoice, then where's the value? And so I really want people to If they take only one thing away from today, I want them to understand or go and understand from their clients what it is that they're buying from them and why they buy and what do they value and what more could you do that would increase that value proposition for the client.

Yeah, I'm just thinking about so many examples, but as a marketer, I also say to my clients about, you know, we invest, or business owners, we invest a lot of time, energy, money into bringing and acquiring customers, but we often forget about after the sale, what happens after. And that's where I think the power of automation is, is helping you follow up and nurture with the leads and customers too.

Absolutely. And then, you know, setting a rhythm with your clients. So it might be quarterly or 6-monthly or monthly, kind of depending on what it is you're doing, the frequency, and probably the importance of the client. What we forget is that things change. So you might interact with a client, come up with a solution, but in 6 months' time they could have a different problem, or they could have new information, or you might have done something with someone else that's relevant to them. So to me, I think automation can really help with continuing that conversation so that we, we don't have to be reactive to a client. Because when a client's made a decision to leave, that's, that's the hardest time to make them stay, right? We should be doing little bits all the time, which is perfect for automation, to reinforce that value proposition and show our clients how much we love them.

Yes. I'm just thinking about another scenario that's coming to my mind is a client who sells, let's say, data analytics. And they told me they were recruiting for salespeople and looking for a lot of salespeople. And after a month or 2 months, they don't see the outcome of the salesperson or the salesperson doesn't have the abilities that they expected, which is, let's say, some of Some like to, or in this type of industry, the phone calls might be the best way to reach the decision makers. And then the sales professionals would just lean into what they feel comfortable, which could be email, which is more passive or hiding behind, not talking to the prospects. Do you have any type of suggestions or feedback on that? And is there some particular framework that works well for all sales professionals that you've seen? In your 30-year career?

First, I want to describe why that happens. What's the problem that exists? And I think that that will then help people to understand what the solution looks like. So, when— and part of my consulting work is helping people employ salespeople. And so, the way I approach it is, again, to first understand, well, who are they selling to? Because a particular client or type of client or avatar or whatever term you want to put on that, that requires a different sort of salesperson potentially, maybe with a different background or maybe with a different knowledge set or whatever it is. So first of all, who are the customers? Who do we want more of? And what does that sales process look like? So exactly like you said, is it a phone call and then a meeting and then a this and then a that? And what are the sales materials that sit underneath that, like the playbook, so that the company then is able to say in the interview process, here's exactly what we're asking you to do. So there's no confusion about is it email or phone, it's actually outlined. And then together with that, it's clear that what investment the company is making to bring those leads in. And what— and so how many leads can they expect from the company? How many leads do they need to generate themselves? And it's all transparent. And the beauty about doing that in the interview process is that there's nowhere to hide, right? It's clear. This is what we're doing. This is what success looks like. And we've got those parameters in place. But the other side of the coin is that companies can't expect people to be high-performing in 1 or 2 months. It's a new business. Even with all of those things in place, it's a brand new business. They've still got to develop relationships, etc., etc. So often companies are measuring the wrong thing too quickly. So first of all, let's have what the sales looks like. Then we build out a success plan, and that success plan has clear metrics for month 1, 2, and 3 that says culturally, this is how you behave, this is what you do, here's the expectation for how you do what you do, the culture, what you do, the The numbers, phone calls, meetings, whatever it is, and the outcome we expect. But again, the outcome isn't necessarily sales in that first 1 or 2 months. And this is very dependent on the market, who the client is, what the sale value is, um, what the average sales. And, and so all of this information goes into the interview. So that the salesperson who's saying yes to that role actually understands what they're saying yes to. And so, what I've found from setting all of that up is that instead of having this, oh, I'm not sure whether they're right, we've got a success plan that both the salesperson and the business owner is invested in. And we get to play the ball and not the man. So, it's really clear when it's working and not working. And so you hire better, you upskill them in a better way, you have better expectations, you manage them in a better way, and therefore you get better results. And if the person or the market or whatever, if there's a wrong ingredient in there, it's really obvious really quickly.

Oh, I like that. Clear expectations. So What would you say is the ideal conversion rate for a salesperson? Oh, that's like a long piece of string there.

So, um, so I can just— I would encourage— so if, if this is your first salesperson that you're, you're putting on, then I would encourage you as the business owner to look at your results. So be realistic. From the first time you met someone to them signing with you, how many steps were involved there? What length of time was that? Was that— and, and don't just choose the super quick ones. Choose the, you know, the normal ones, the average. And that should give you some idea of what you can expect from a salesperson because Salespeople— so often business owners can sell in their business much better than salespeople in the first instance because they know it so inherently. They birthed this thing. It's their child. They don't have to learn anything about it. They don't have to learn, um, what the problems are and the solutions look like because they know it so intrinsically.

Mm-hmm.

So we've got to have a way of imparting that knowledge onto the salesperson so that we actually set them up for success?

Yeah. So, it's every salesperson needs time and depends on the, I guess, the sales process, like mapping it out. Because if I am a business owner, I want to scale my business, I obviously want to hire the best people to help me do that. And one of the ways to scale is to hire salespeople. You know, they're your revenue-generating employees. So I like the idea of having these clear expectations upfront with them because yeah, that sets the scene because the expectation for a lot of business owners might be that, you know, I need to break even in the first 2 months or 3 months. And that's not a realistic goal for someone selling enterprise-level software that might take maybe 6 or a year or 2 years to nurture for a $10 million deal. Yeah.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And so, um, if you can have that knowledge in the front end, then, um, then you're better able to manage that person, that salesperson. And, and that's one of the things that I cover with business owners when I'm working with them is on one side, I want to know what, you know, what does success look like? What's your aspiration for this person? Because we absolutely want to get them there. But equally, I want to know, What's your biggest fear? Because often when someone's really, you know, letting go of the responsibility of selling and handing that over to someone they don't even know, right? Um, there's fear associated with that, but lots of people aren't very honest about that. So here's some of the fears that come up when I'm talking to business owners about that. They're really expensive. I can't trust them. What if they sell something we can't deliver? They're really good at talking. Maybe they've just made up, you know, convinced me that they're good at selling and they're not. So these are the sort of fears that come up around employing a salesperson, particularly when it's your first one.

Yeah.

So what I would encourage you to do is be honest about those fears. And I'll give you an example. I was working with a mortgage broker Um, and she was employing— she ended up employing 2 salespeople to really boost her business. And one of the things that she was frightened about was, uh, customer service because she was building her business on referral only, not on any kickback, you know, and, and fees. And so Word of mouth and how she treated each client was critical. And so what we put in place was when the salespeople started, she actually went along with them and then randomly, you know, a couple per week, she would call the client and say, how were they? Was there anything, you know, that you would change? Not to, not to, um, Not, not to spy on them, but just to assure herself that they've got, you know, that right attitude that was critical in her business. So once we know what that fear is, then we can put some control measures around it to mitigate that issue and also to upskill the salesperson and make sure that they're clear on what's important in this sale.

I like that example. I'm just thinking about the book. We haven't mentioned the title of your book.

Oh, thank you. It's More Sales, Less Marketing.

Oh, uh-oh. More Sales, Less Marketing. Great book title.

So let me explain. I think the frustration that I have, not with all marketers, uh, just with some, is that they've really said, um, that selling isn't necessary anymore. All you need to do is marketing. And, and then on the other side, I've, I've worked with lots of entrepreneurs and people and they say, oh, I need a website. And I go, no, you don't. When you first start, what you need is paying clients. You need to understand. So you need money and you need to understand what it is they're buying because you could be selling you know, marketing automation, but what they're actually buying is time with their kids, is less headaches, less things falling through the gaps. So once you really understand what people are buying from you and why and how, what's that process look like, then use those insights in your marketing, then write a website that speaks to that. But I think people hide behind marketing. I have to have a business card, I have to have this, I have— no, you don't. You have to have a problem that you think you solve, and you have to go and have a conversation with a potential client, and you have to ask them to buy from you. Because someone who's just interested in your idea is very different to someone who will part with money. to solve that problem. And that's the person you need to find.

Yes, I agree with you completely. One of the questions I ask in my strategy sessions with clients is, why do customers buy from you? And why did they make this decision? What's so special about your business? And the other side is I'm advising a startup at the moment where they had an idea, which is a big idea. This could be a billion-dollar idea. And, but they haven't found a paying customer. And I'm suggesting that we need to find strangers who are not related, no family members who are going to say nice things about the idea. We need to find strangers who will pay. Like, let's find at least 5 or 10, whether that's through your networks or whether that's through paid advertising. We need to validate this idea with a stranger.

Absolutely.

who are going to be willing to take the credit card even if they pay $2 for something.

Yes, you're absolutely right. That's imperative in the first days or minutes of your business because I often say to people, you don't want to make the best cockroach trap in the world and then realize that everyone's got a mouse problem. You know, whatever it is that you're creating has to be crafted around your client. I had another really good example of that. Um, there was some guys who developed a running app for people who traveled. And so you'd go to a new city, you'd put in your location, and it would show you, you know, a 5K, 10K, whatever run for people who like running. Not me. Um, and they'd finished it and they were showing people, and every single woman who looked at the apps asked the same question, is that lit at nighttime? And was that in their app? No, it wasn't. So did they put that in their app? Yes, they did. So this is why customer feedback and getting their insights is so imperative. And it's the whole thing about a minimum viable product and the agile methodology, right? is that client interaction. And there's a massive difference between someone who is interested, going, oh, well, that's a nice idea, and someone who's invested, which means that they'll part with their money. So you don't want people who are interested, you want people who are invested. And they're the ones that, that we absolutely need. So yes, 100%. That's exactly what I say. Um, In my book as well is take that problem definition that you have. The problem that we solve is, what we've done about that is, and go take it to the streets immediately. First thing.

Yes. I know we talked about marketers being sometimes good, sometimes bad. But how can marketers help sales teams feel more prepared with Sales or clients.

Oh, I love that. So to me, marketing and selling are sisters. So, so the marketing team should be able to, um, really have some really good insights into what the customers are buying, the recency. You know, when I've worked with great marketing teams, they've told me trends in, in what's happening online or what's happening with clients that have really helped me then hone that pitch to the individual client. And so the way I often look at it is that marketing is herding, right? Like getting a certain sort of people down or, you know, down and interested in at least knowing about who we are. But selling is taking that one person and then crafting using those beautiful words, materials, all the stories that I have from marketing and finding the right one for that client who's sitting in front of me right now. And so that takes, I've gotta read what they're doing. I've gotta have that bank of stories in my kit. And so I really see that the great relationship between sales and marketing is that I can also add to those stories. So if I have a win with a client, I need to tell marketing about that. Because that then becomes part of that bank of story and asset. We've got to have a way of sharing what's happening in the broader sense so that I can apply that to the person who's sitting in front of me. So, it's not just a one-way street. It's actually a beautiful dance and marriage when it works well.

Yes. And this is exactly what we are seeing with whether you're a small business or a big business. Sales and marketing, there's always a clash. They're always, you know, in discussions, but could be challenging themselves with, hey, you know, marketing is in charge of generating leads, and then sales is in charge of selling or converting those leads. And so there's always tension between the two, which is good and bad. But I think that in some instances, what would help is technology. And that's where the power of automation tools, especially where you have marketing and sales merged together. So platforms like HubSpot or Salesforce, or we use ActiveCampaign, for example, most of the small business owners, they don't invest in doing marketing and sales when it comes to technology. And if they did, they will have transparency around particular leads that are coming in, what behaviors, Notes from salespeople, any objections, what the outcomes were of these sales calls, or absolutely, which are very valuable to use in marketing.

No, absolutely. And I think if we move that into the world of AI, and with a lot of people now doing sales calls on, on, you know, platforms like Zoom with an AI tool taking notes, how much data Is in there about the flow of the conversation, about, um, I know with the AI tool that I use, it even scores the interest, like how engaged the conversation was. So, yes. So there's, there's so many tools that we can use to be smarter about what we're doing and not to take away from the human interaction, but to enhance it.

Yes. Yeah. I look, we've seen so many different AI platforms popping up, especially when it comes to sales. We use one here called JustCall and JustCall allows you to have live as someone's talking to a prospect and the prospect tells an objection, says, yeah, it's too expensive. Or do you guys have experience in this industry? This little AI pops up and recognizes and says, hey, here's a case study. Talk about this case study, or here's how to handle this objection.

Live, like a live playbook. I love that.

Yes. Like coaching them live. Awesome. What's one thing listeners should do this week just to wrap up to improve their sales?

So I think the number one thing that I'd love you to do is think about your favorite client, the one that you love working with, the one that if you had 100 or 1,000 of that person, it would, it would just be your dream come true. So what I'd love you to do is go and have a coffee with them or a Zoom or whatever. And I want you to really listen. I want you to ask them, hey, you know, what is it? You know, why do you keep working with us? What is it that you get out of it? What do you like? What don't you like? What do you want more of? What do you want less of? Really dig into what it is that this person is buying from you and what the keywords are. And I think that will give you amazing insights because that person can be replicated if we're pitching and talking about our, our client in the right way.

Perfect. So where can people learn more about you and Metisan?

So I have a website which is metisan.com.au, and my book More Sales Less Marketing is available on Amazon.

Oh well, I should, I should buy that too. I should get that book. Sounds like a great book.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Frances. I really enjoyed speaking with you today, and I'm sure our listeners will get So much value just from what you shared in this half an hour. But I do encourage everyone to buy the book because it is a perfect marriage between marketing and sales, which is really 80% of what marketing automation is. It's knowing what the strategy is for marketing, what the strategy is for sales, and then we're simply using technology to help us execute those strategies. I was going to ask you, Frances, before we leave.

Yeah.

Is there a CRM that you particularly love?

Um, I'm not wedded to anyone in particular. To me, it— I like to find or recommend a CRM that is in line with how you sell. So for example, in my consulting business, I just, I use Bigin because it's simple, it's easy. That's all I need. But if you've got a highly marketing-driven sales funnel, then you need something different. So yes. So that's, so I'd like to look at what's the sales process and let's then help you find something that actually fits that.

Yes, it has to be, it has to fit your purpose and what you're trying to do, the size of your business. We do see a lot of our clients signing up to tools because of the brand name. But there may be like just an overkill for what they need at the time.

So yes. Yeah.

I always say start small. Thank you so much for sharing your tips and I really enjoyed talking with you. All the best.

Thank you.