The Future Is How / S1 E3 /w Dr. Robert Waldinger

Welcome, friends, to The Future Is How, where we don't just talk about what's next, we practice how to create it. I'm your host, Frederik G. Pferdt, and today we're diving deep into something fundamental to our well-being: relationships and happiness. Our guest is someone who knows this terrain intimately. Dr Robert Waldinger. He's not only a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and the director of the world's longest study on happiness, he's also a Zen priest. Robert, it's an honor to have you here.

Oh, I'm delighted to be here, Frederik G. Pferdt.

So what I usually like to start off with is something I call a future bio. So Robert, imagine it's 5 years from now. How would you describe the next chapter of your life and the impact you've had?

I think the next chapter is happening now, and I would hope that I could continue that. And what that involves is shifting from primarily being a researcher and a professor to bringing the ideas from my research to a broader audience, because I've spent most of my career publishing my findings in journals that nobody reads. And so my hope is to take these findings, which I feel are so important for human life and for our well-being in the future, and to take those ideas and really bring them to people in a way that's usable. So that's my hope, and that's what I see myself doing in the next 5 years.

Wonderful, wonderful. Really looking forward to that future, benefiting from all the ideas that you want to share with people around the world. So what would you say is one of the biggest ideas that you find, that you found in your research?

Probably the most surprising idea from the research was that our connections with other people actually keep us healthier and they help us live longer. It made sense that they would make us happier if we had good, warm connections with people. That's not a surprise. The surprise was finding, as we followed thousands of lives over decades was that the people who were most connected to others were the people who stayed the healthiest and lived the longest.

Fascinating. So you mentioned that these intentional connections are very helpful and very powerful, right? So what I also see is that relationships just don't happen by accident, right? They're cultivated. So what could you help people to to do differently when it comes to their relationships.

You're absolutely right. They are cultivated. And the people in our study who were the best at relationships paid attention to them daily, weekly. Um, and there are kind of two categories of what we call social fitness. Meaning really keeping relationships vibrant. One is enlivening and strengthening the relationships you already have. And the other is bringing new people into your life. And there are ways to do each that research has shown us actually work and help people do this. So let's start with taking care of the relationships you already have. Many of us have people who, you know, we just don't see as often as we'd like to. And we say, "Oh, I really want to spend more time with that person, but I don't do it." And what we find is that the people who do this well are the people who take little actions over and over again. So for example, Maybe you commute to work every day. So maybe on that commute, rather than looking at your phone or listening to a podcast like this one, maybe what you do is you just send a little text or an email to someone or call them on the phone just saying, "Hi, just wanted to touch base, see how it's going." And the people who do that regularly are blessed with so many rich relationships because they keep up with each other's lives, right? So that's one thing. Um, in terms of making sure you keep up with a few people, uh, all the time, many of us learn that if we make regular dates with just one or two people, um, we stay connected with those people. So for example, my co-author, I wrote the book, The Good Life with Mark Schulz, who is not just my collaborator, but he's my friend. And Mark and I talk on the phone every Friday at 12 noon, no matter what. And we have to cancel that phone call if we're not going to talk. It's just a given, right? When my wife and I had young kids, someone told us to have a date night. And what that meant was that for us, on Thursday night at 6:00 PM, a babysitter would show up to stay with the kids, and we would have to cancel that babysitter if we weren't going to go out. So we always did, even if it was just to go to the mall and do errands, because it meant we had time together alone. Regular time. So that's another way to stay connected with people who are already in your life, but you may not be keeping up with in the way that you want to. And then if you want, I can go ahead and talk about bringing new people into your life, or we can do that later, whatever works, Frederik.

Perfect. Yes. I love those practices that you just shared. Right. It reminds me of keeping not a to-do list, but a to-date list. List, right? Like, who are the people you want to actually reconnect with, right? And don't just create that list of, um, of those people, but also put it on the calendar, right? Make it something that you actually have to cancel, is what you're saying, right? So you have to make an effort to remove that meeting or remove that phone call or remove that date, um, from your life, right? So you have to make that effort, right? And I think that's something very powerful. That's the shift that we want to make. What I also hear you say is that, you know, going back to that example you shared when we are on the bus, right? And we are listening to a podcast or like we are on social media or we check in emails, whatever it is. Would you say like we should also kind of like set a reminder for ourselves that we maybe should not just connect with the people online, but like also take a look around us, right? Like, is that a chance to connect with a person sitting next to us, right? Is there a chance to connect maybe with a bus driver for a short moment, right? And checking in with them.

You know, that it's so great that you raise this because there's actually a research study that looked at this. It was in the city of Chicago. Which you may know has a very strong commuter rail system. So lots of people go to work on a train every day. And the researchers took two totally comparable groups of people, and they said to one group, today on your commute, do what you normally do. You know, it might be be on your phone, it might be read the newspaper, whatever. The other group, they assigned to talk to a stranger. And they asked people in advance, how much do you think you're going to enjoy this commute? And the people who were assigned to talk to a stranger thought they would be much less happy than the people who could do whatever they usually did. After the people got off the train, the researchers asked them, well, how do you feel now? And it turned out that the people who had to talk to a stranger were significantly happier on average than the people who just did their usual commute. So it's a good example of how we often feel like, oh, I'm not going to want to reach out to people. There's this kind of, uh, I don't know, what if it's awkward? And then what happens is that when we actually do connect with people, we're more energized, we're happier.

That's so fascinating. Yes. For me as an I would classify myself as an introvert, right? So I'm a learned extrovert or like a trained extrovert. Yeah, probably. You know, there's a, there's a barrier to that, right? Where like, I don't feel very comfortable to talk to strangers, right? So what would be like a, a question or something that you would recommend people to, to use as you know, the first sentence or the first kind of like approach to someone they don't know? Like, what's, what's a good, a good way of making that connection with a stranger?

Well, I think it depends on where you are, and it depends on who this person is. So one thing that people love is to be noticed and to be seen. So If it doesn't feel too personal, you could notice something about that person. Like you could say, "That is a great hat. Where'd you get that hat?" Or, you know, "It's a great scarf," whatever. Nothing too personal, but something where you're actually noticing. And people often are very pleased to be noticed. One of the reasons why it's easy to make friends if you're with a baby or a dog is that people can talk about your baby or your dog, right? And so one good way to do it is simply to find something to notice either about the person or in your surroundings and just mention it and maybe have a question about it.

Love that. Such a, such a great advice, right? Like helping people to feel seen and heard and understood, right? To notice something about them, right? That is not too personal, as you said, but like you just give a, some form of a compliment, right? Where you say, like, you know, I noticed your hat, or I noticed your shoes, or I noticed something about you, or even noticing a behavior, right? When somebody opens the door for someone or offers a seat, right? You could tell that person, hey, I noticed you offered your seat to someone else, right? I really like that behavior, or something like that, right? Yeah, that could be something very powerful where you make immediately a connection with that person that goes deeper, right? Around not just noticing something that they wear, but also something that they do, right? A behavior they are showing. And I think that's a very powerful way of making that connection that goes deeper immediately.

Yeah, like noticing somebody being kind.

Incredible. Yes. Yes. So we also see that nowadays, right, where we feel like we are connected to so many people, right? We have our friends list on social media. We have people we email. We people, we have people that we, we feel are, um, our, our friends or we're connected to. But at the same time, we see that a lot of people feel isolated, right? In today's connected world. What, Advice would you give someone who feels that isolation, right, where they feel loneliness even?

Well, again, there've actually been studies on this where they find that one of the best ways to make new friends, to bring new people into your life, is to become involved in activities you care about. And become involved with other people. So you might volunteer for a community group that does something that matters to you. You know, it might be a group that's, you know, cleaning up a, you know, an abandoned lot. It might be working for a political cause. It might be a church group. It could be anything, right? Do something you care about or do something you enjoy. You know, like a gardening club or a pickleball group, whatever. Because what happens is that if you're doing that activity that you enjoy alongside other people, you immediately have something in common and you have a way to strike up conversations around the activity. There's a kind of natural opening. The other thing is that if it's an activity where the same people come back again and again, The best way to make new friends is to see them again and again. Maybe to start with a very superficial conversation, but maybe the next time you deepen it a little, you find out a little more about each other's family or why they like this particular activity. So that, that repeated exposure to the same people is the best way to make new friends. It's why, for example, the water cooler became iconic in the workplace because you would gather around a place like the water cooler or the coffee machine and you would naturally strike up conversations while you were there.

So what's fascinating is that you share in your research that um, it's about quantity and quality in your relationships, right? Can you talk a little bit about that as well? So it's having more friends and it's having, um, maybe, uh, better friendships as well.

Yes. Um, having more friends is complicated because let's take someone like you, Frederik G. Pferdt, who's a, an introvert by nature, maybe a learned extrovert, but maybe your comfort zone is a quiet conversation with someone, not a big party with lots and lots of people. So for you, lots and lots of connections may not be the right thing. In fact, that might be too stressful. Then there are extroverts who get their energy from having lots of people around. For those people, having more friends might be the right thing in terms of making you happier. So it very much depends on our temperaments. Introverts don't want a lot of people around, extroverts do, and both are perfectly normal. Um, but then to what you're saying, having warm relationships are— is really important. That people who are involved in difficult, acrimonious conflict-laden relationships. Those people have more difficulty with happiness and with health because, you know, conflict is a stressor. And, and some conflict is normal in a relationship. The question is, can we work out conflicts so we both come out the other side feeling okay? If you're involved in a relationship that's angry all the time, where you're just bickering all the time, that breaks down health.

You also are a Zen priest, as I, as I mentioned in the beginning, right? So you're practicing Zen Buddhism, I think, for, for quite some time. Can you talk a little bit about how these Zen practices have shaped your understanding of happiness and also relationships? So is there a connection? There as well.

Oh, definitely. So Zen is about turning toward all aspects of our life, including the parts that aren't fun, that aren't pleasant. So Zen is about sitting still in meditation and turning toward the ankle pain that starts to come up, right? And really noticing it or turning toward that anger that we started to feel at a driver who cut us off in traffic and really noticing it, noticing the anger grow and then pass away, right? So Zen reminds us that nobody's happy all the time and that that's not the goal of life, that in fact, One of my teachers used to say, happiness is an accident, but Zen practice can make us more accident-prone. So we can learn to set up the conditions for more and more well-being, but we're not going to be happy all the time. I mean, you know, I'm enjoying myself talking with you right now, but an hour from now, something upsetting might happen. I won't be happy then. And I wouldn't want to expect myself to be happy if something upsetting happens. I want to feel everything just as it arises. And that's what Zen practice teaches us to do.

Perfect. Could you share a little bit about your daily practices? What's the morning practices or like the afternoon or even evening practices that you engage in to really train your mind. I think that's a powerful way of looking at life as well, right? That you are becoming what you just said, more prepared for the accidents or the things that are happening in your life, right? The suffering that will arise in moments in your life as well. So how do you practice that throughout your day?

Taking care of myself is important. Like, I've come to see that, especially as I get older. So I try to get enough sleep. I don't stay up late. I go to bed at a pretty reasonable hour and allow myself to get 7, if I'm lucky, 8 hours of sleep, but usually 7, which for me is good. I make sure that I exercise every day. That means somewhere between half an hour to an hour, I might do— I might walk, I might do weight training, something to get my heart rate up, something to really move. And stay active physically because it makes a huge difference in my health. I try not to put on weight, so I actually weigh myself every day. And that's a way to make sure that I'm not just accidentally putting on weight without realizing it. And weighing myself every day actually just lets me monitor how I'm doing in that regard. And I meditate every day. So I meditate for 25 minutes. That's the Zen tradition. Because in Zen, we sit absolutely still for 25 minutes. That means that, you know, no matter what, I don't move. And so 25 minutes is really all that the body needs. And we don't need to sit for longer. If I want to meditate more than once, I can and I sometimes do. But those are my basic self-care practices. And then of course, the other thing I do is I connect with people. My wife and I have lunch together now that we both work from home and we have dinner together almost every night. And I make it a point to connect with friends, if not every day, then a few times a week. That might be going for a walk, it might be going out for dinner with a friend. So that's— and I also practice with my Zen group, and that's a place where I stay connected to a group of people who I feel very close to.

Thanks for sharing those self-care practices, which I totally can see that they are all beneficial to having a, you know, happier and healthier life, right? Like getting enough sleep and, you know, watching your nutrition intake and like what are you eating and how much you're eating as well, getting exercise, investing in your connections and relationships and so forth. What would you— what would you say is the most challenging for you in those practices? What is something where you feel like You know, I wish to get those 8 hours of sleep every day, but that's not happening every week. So there is weeks where like sleep, you know, is reduced to like 5 or 6 hours. Or is there other— Rarely.

I don't do that anymore. I just don't. I mean, yes, sometimes I don't sleep well. That does happen. But normally I get at least 6, 6.5 hours and really I make it a priority now because our brains work better as well as our bodies when we get more sleep. So, but you're saying what are the challenging things? So for me, I think one of the challenges is at times being too busy. Like I put too much on my plate and then I think, oh, I'm too busy. But of course it's all self-created. So then I have to check in with myself and say, okay, why, how have I let too many things accumulate in my schedule? And how can I make sure going forward that I don't do that? And so that's my constant practice to, to try to keep the level of busyness to something that feels good. That feels energizing, but doesn't feel like too much.

So let's go back to happiness and relationships, right? And I think we all know those situations when we feel that the relationship is just not working out anymore, right? There are things that are coming up in our relationships where we feel like frustrated, or we feel like, oh, we have to change the other person, right? Or the person is not showing up in ways that we like to show up. So what are some of the practices that you can share that really helps us to— I wouldn't say fix those relationships, but to really change those relationships, right? What are some ways to really improve relationships as well?

Yeah. Well, I'm starting to work on a new book and the working title of the book is Nothing to Fix. And it's about our temptation to feel like we have to fix everything, to fix ourselves, to fix other people. And, you know, if we all think about trying to fix other people, how well does that work out? Right? It doesn't. So the question is, how do we live with each other? There are always going to be things that don't work so well, that we don't like, that annoy us about the other person, just as we're annoying, right? And so the question is, are these differences livable? And that's something we can check out and discern. So You know, I think you and I each have partners, right? And it isn't blissful every moment, right? There are things we get on each other's nerves. And I think that the question is, how do we figure out, how do we live with each other in a way that allows us to be ourselves, but also allows us to accommodate what the other person needs? Sometimes that doesn't work. And so sometimes relationships need to be ended. Certainly abusive relationships need to be stepped away from. If the other person can't change, if we can't change the dynamic between us, but many relationships can be worked on because the goal is not to have a relationship without any conflict. The goal is to find ways to work out conflict so that we both end up feeling okay about each other and about ourselves.

Thanks for sharing your, um, work in progress, um, as well on, on your new book. Um, I love the title already, right? There's Nothing to Fix, right? Which is such a provocative statement, right, which gets me curious that we all live in that constant search for fixing a problem or fixing the relationship or fixing everything that we discover as a problem, right? And we're looking for these solutions. So would you mind sharing a story which maybe showed you the power of reframing that, right? Where we said, like, we actually don't have to fix anything. What is a story that you might want to share with our listeners that really brought that approach to life for you?

Boy, that's a good question. It's easier for me to think of the things that I try to fix in myself that, that I realize, no, I probably don't need to fix that. I probably just need to work with it. But you'd like a story about fixing other people?

Or where you realize that this is actually not the goal, right? It's not about fixing other people. It's not about fixing yourself. Like, which— what is a story that you could think of that really helped you to discover that this is not a way that we should actually live our lives?

Yeah, yeah. Well, let me, okay, I'll tell you about a colleague who I collaborate with and we write things together. And when I first started working with him and I would send him a draft of something that I had written, and he would make comments that actually kind of stung. They were kind of— they made me feel bad. And it was like, "Ooh." And my first thought was, "I don't want to work with this guy." And then I realized, "Oh my gosh, his comments are so insightful. He is so good at this." And what I decided was, actually, I'm not going to change him. I don't want to change him, first of all, and I can't change him. But also, I don't want to shut him up. I don't want to make him think that he can't tell me what he really thinks. So if it stings a little, maybe what I can learn to do is work with the stinging in myself, manage the sting rather than trying to manage him, because What he has to offer me is so useful. And so that's how I worked on it in myself rather than trying to fix him.

I love that example that really in the workplace so often we see that, you know, someone is giving us feedback or someone is offering a comment, as you say, right? And we immediately take it personal, right? As something that we don't see the benefit in it immediately, right? And it's reminding me of that quote from Anais Nin who said, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are, right? And so that's a powerful reminder that if we see that as a threat or something that is threatening to us, right? We see that maybe, maybe we can, we can change that and see just the benefit of it. And we see the power of that comment can help us to become better and improve, right? Instead of seeing that as a threat. And that is something that we have to change. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the other thing that, that my experience with this colleague showed me was that I'm a little bit thin-skinned and maybe I could get less thin-skinned generally, right? And that that would be better for me, right? So maybe other people could say critical things and I could take it more easily and feel less wounded, right? So it was a way to show me how much I was invested in not being criticized. And maybe, maybe I could change that in myself.

Love that. Yes. So let's do actually a quick exercise that might be helpful in nurturing our relationships in the future as well. I like to do these mindstate moments, and I'd like to do one that is on connections today. So it's just a quick exercise that helps us to pause for a moment and maybe to practice. Something that, um, Robert is sharing with us today. So let's pause for, um, this Mindstate moment. And, um, I want you to just, um, wherever you are at the moment, you're either listening on a walk or in your car or relaxing at home. So just join me for a quick reflection on connecting. So first, I want you to bring to mind someone who has positively impacted you recently, right? So I want you to picture that person. It could be a friend, it could be a colleague, or even someone you just met. So just picture them and reflect on what they did or said that made a difference in your life. So just take a quick moment to picture that person. And now imagining nurturing this relationship into the future. What could it look like if you invested more time or care into this connection? How would it feel if you made more room for shared experiences, conversations, or even just moments of gratitude with this person? Take a deep breath in and exhale slowly. And so here's my invitation: what's one small action you could take today to reconnect with that person? As Robert said, maybe it's sending a message of gratitude, or planning a call, or setting up a time to meet. Whatever comes to mind, let it be simple. The beauty of connection is that it starts now, with small intentional choices. And the future of our relationships isn't written for us, we write it together. Let's take one more deep breath in, again bringing that person to mind, and breathing out. Wonderful. Thanks for engaging in that quick mindstate moment. So Robert, um, Anything you want to share with us regarding to your future bio? You mentioned that you've done incredible research in your life, but now you want to bring more of that research into people's lives, right? Make it practical, make it helpful for them. What are some ways that you want to do that moving forward?

Well, I've actually just finished designing a course that Harvard Medical School is doing. It's an online well-being course. What else? I'm continuing to teach Zen online every Monday evening. I'm giving talks that I put on my website, but also on the Insight Timer website. I'm just trying to put things out there so that if people want to learn about some of the ideas I've been working with, they're welcome to share in them. It's all— if people want to go to any of these resources, they can find them at my website. It's just Robert walldinger.com.

Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. Yes, definitely check that out. Highly recommend finding Robert also online. I think you're very active on some of the social media platforms like LinkedIn and Instagram and so forth.

Oh, yes. I have a newsletter on LinkedIn and Substack.

Wonderful. Great. So everybody check that out. Highly recommend that. So, before we close our conversation, I want to just ask you to again imagine the future, right? The future where more and better relationships are happening for human beings. So what could you say about that future that really helps people to not just imagining that future, but help to move towards that future? What are some of the things that we can start doing right now to really nurture our relationships? What's your maybe top 2 or top 3 things? You've mentioned a couple of them already. But if we want to imagine that future where more and better relationships are happening for us, what's one of the things or two of the things that we can start practicing today?

You know, we live in such difficult times and people are so anxious about our future, right? And we've become so divided from each other. And our brains are wired to focus on threats. So people can divide us from each other. Politicians can divide us from each other. And so what I would say, my strongest advice is to notice where people are trying to divide you from other people, where people are trying to say to you, look, there are enemies out there. And turn away from those voices that want to make you feel more afraid and want to make you feel more divided from others and turn toward those voices that offer more of a perspective of connection and all the things that are going right all day, every day, all around us, that it's easy to do that, to turn away from those voices of fear and anger and division and turn toward the voices that invite people to connect more and to, and invite people to realize how much we all share with each other. That is my strongest piece of advice. And you can do it everywhere you look in your world.

That's such powerful advice. Yes. Looking for the voices that are connecting, right? And listening to those more instead of following the voices that want to divide us. It's such a powerful reminder that we have the control to look where we want to look or hear what we want to hear. And if you choose to surround yourself with people and voices that are all about connecting, that are all about kindness and love, I think that's where you see the change happening with yourself. As well. So thanks for reminding us. So Robert, it has been such a joy and an honor to speak to you, right? I love that you are not just sharing research that is very powerful and insightful, but also very practical advice for all of us, right? And how to build better connections with the people around us, right? Even the people we don't know yet, right? And it reminds me of that great advice you had in the beginning. The next time you're on a bus or on a train or somewhere where you meet a stranger, right? Notice something about them, right? It could be noticing something on the outside that they're wearing, but also noticing a behavior, right? And call that out, right? Notice when people are kind or or helpful to other people, that is a very, very powerful way of making that initial connection with strangers too. So again, thank you so much for joining us today.

Again, it's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed it.

And your work really reminds us that the quality of our relationships shapes not just our happiness, but the future we're building together. And to everyone listening, thank you for being here. If today's episode sparked something in you, I encourage you to take that spark and turn it into action. The next chapter of your future begins now with the relationships you cultivate today. And Robert reminded us today, and how easy it can also be to make new connections, make new friends, but also invest time in the relationships you also have already and nurturing and cultivating those. Again, if this conversation inspired you, share it with someone else, uh, who matters to you. It could be the start of a new connection even. So thanks for joining us and, uh, see you in the future. Thank you, Robert.

Thank you.