ADHD Burnout Prevention: Learning to Listen to Your Body with Paula Liub

Welcome to the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. My name is Angela Mondor, also known as the Geeky Girl. In this podcast, we're going to be talking about some amazing things to help you get over overgiving. Hi and welcome to this episode of the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. My name is Angela Mondor and I'm also known as the Geeky Girl, and today I get to bring you a special guest. Her name is Paula Lube, and Paula is a burnout expert for ADHD and highly sensitive people. She combines her own burnout experience with a degree in psychology, which is cool, yoga, and 20 years of mindfulness practices. Paula has developed an effective system that beats and prevents burnout by using a combination of science-backed and mindfulness tools. Thanks for being with us today.

Hello, Angela. Thank you for having me.

It's awesome having you. I was thinking about this just before we got on air, so to speak. You decided you needed to spray your face with this essence, right? And so there's different reasons why we might want to do that, and it was to help you change your mindset. And was it the scent? Was it the, the actual moisture? Like, what is it about that that helps you?

I think both. I think it's definitely the scent. I'm very sensitive to, to smells, so it's, it's really nice to have a smell that is— that I like. So I do change them around. Sometimes it's lavender, sometimes it's Rose at the moment, it's birch and some floral essences. So it's definitely like that the scent that is calming that I enjoy. And then when I spritz it over my face, it cools the face down as well as moisturizes, right? Because where I am now, this is it's it's dark, it's cold, and we have heating inside, so it makes the air dry. So again, it moisturizes not only my face; it makes the air a bit more moisturized. So I don't It's easier for me to talk, to breathe when it's moisturized. So it's all types of sensory resets, this kind of floral spray. So I sometimes have 2 or 3 on my desk. Sometimes I have none for a while and it always comes and goes.

And such a, I think that we discount sort of the things that, that we do that help us. We don't realize how much they help us unless we really dive into it. I've had people who, they like to have different scents of candles for different types of work to help them switch from one to another, right? Or just even when I work with clients, I light a candle and that symbolizes that I'm in this working client mode. Or the different things in terms of sensory, like a lot of us neurodivergent people have specific sensory needs, let's call it, and whether that means ways to dampen the sensory or ways to heighten different sensitivities too.

Yes, absolutely.

I love the fact that you did that right before because I thought, oh, that's just That is something that maybe somebody might not realize that could be so valuable for them.

Yes. Yes. And it, I really noticed that it just helps me to calm a little. Maybe it's the coolness or the scent that helps me to focus, especially if I'm working on something and I get a little tired. Of course I need to take a break then, but having that spritz, it just helps me to focus a bit better, to relax as well, to remove that tension.

What are some of the other things that you, I don't know, do you have things that, that you're like, oh, I know right away that this is in my toolbox, things that I can use to help me?

Yes. So I use breathwork a lot. I'm also a breathwork instructor. Breath is very powerful because actually it is the only thing that is both in autonomous nervous system and involuntary nervous system, right? You know, when you get stressed, you get all of these symptoms like your heart fastens, you sweat more, your digestion, your breath becomes more shallow and all these things you cannot control. There's tons of things, dozens and dozens of things, all the systems in your body that you cannot control except breath. Breath is the only one that you can control. And by slowing down your breath, you can slow down your heart rate, switch on the parasympathetic nervous system, which is about rest and digest, and everything else slows down and you calm down. So it's very powerful.

That's so funny.

I have—

I am a chronic shallow fast breather with a high heart rate. It drives my physicians nuts. They— I go in and they'll say, your heart is going too fast. It's just normal. Let's just move on now. So I like the way you connected the breathwork to— my husband is really good. Like he can actually— he has— it's like he has control over his heart. He can slow it right down. He can move it back up. And I think he does it with his breath. But yeah.

Yes, you can do it too. And you can actually get in a habit of slowing your breath, breathing slower and breathing more deeply. It is a habit.

Yeah. Well, I started with the tattoo to remind myself just to breathe.

Yeah. Amazing.

Because you can see it when you write. So yeah, I should be breathing properly.

Yes.

I'm a singer. So breathing when I sing, I understand how important it is. to where the breath comes from and how I can create the sounds. It's translating that into real life. Like you said, it's habits, right?

Yes. And singing, humming, as well as dancing are great tools to regulate your nervous system. Besides, you know, all the mindfulness tools, all the different things you can learn on the internet, actually just singing a song you like, just humming it already helps you downshift.

It's amazing how all of these bits and pieces that, that we have in our life that we Maybe don't even realize. And you were talking about how the nervous system gets upset or there's this irritation in the nervous system, and that all leads to our burnout. And a lot of us, we literally are, we almost ignore things until we get to the point where we're burning out. And there's that hiccup moment in between. I like to try to get better at that all the time. That's sort of like my goal is how can I make sure that I can catch myself before I go into burnout. And through the years, I found I can get better at picking those things up. What are some of the tools that you have for that kind of thing?

So it helps to start with noticing the smallest things and actually acting on them as well. You know, how many of us— I'm sure all of us have this thing where we want to go to the toilet, but then we don't. Let's just finish this paragraph. Let's just And you start with this, just go to the toilet when you want to, have a drink when you feel that you're thirsty, have a snack when you feel that you're hungry, go to sleep when you start feeling tired and, you know, take a break when you feel overwhelmed. Just start with the little things and start noticing them and start acting on them. And you create this better connection with your body. I don't know, maybe it sounds cliché, but that is real because a lot of neurodivergent people, we have the problems, we have problems of interoception. perceptions, which is the sensations from our own body. Quite a lot of neurodivergent people don't really feel the thirst until they're really thirsty, don't feel the hunger until they're really famished. Quite often it's because of the hyperfocus. And also it's interesting, I think it's related to— because a lot of us are late diagnosed and we've been hearing all our lives that, oh, this is not so loud, oh, this is not so bright. So It might also be related to that, I think, sometimes that we learn to gaslight our own body in a way even. So it's interesting. There's lots of related things, but yeah, coming back to your question, it starts with the small things and I very much recommend working with someone to recognize all the different signals that are deeper as well.

And I think that's really important what you said about working with someone, because you're right. Part of A late diagnosis issue is we were taught, oh, that's not important. Don't pay attention to that. You're not really feeling what you think you're feeling. You're overreacting. And you're right, we have programmed ourselves to ignore. And even in with my healing from this accident, I have ignored all of my hip pain. I've mentioned it to the physiotherapist along the way, but it's, yeah, but that's not as important as the neck stuff right now. Like, the neck stuff is more important. And I can literally just Ignore the other pains to focus on something else. And I think we do that in our everyday lives. Like you said, oh, it's not that loud. Oh, it's not that bright. And, but that's because the neurotypicals don't see it that way. And so I think that you're right. Part of it is just the, our old stories, things that we've been told. I like the concept of taking action though. I think that's really important. I believe really strongly in actions. Because you can't make any change unless you take action.

Yes, yes, absolutely.

So what is your, what is your mindset? Or how do you help somebody to take action? Like, for example, oh, I have to go to the bathroom. Oh, but I gotta finish this thing first. And I really know that I need to finish this thing. Because if I go to the bathroom, then I'm gonna end up folding laundry, and I'm never going to come back to the thing.

Right. I mean, it can happen. Yeah. The thing is that you can, if you're really in hyperfocus, you will likely just come back to that. But I think what really helps, I mean, we all heard it thousands of times, is having a routine, having a schedule and organizing your work, your tasks in a certain way that, you know, Pomodoro technique or anything else where you just, you know, Have a structure and you do a task, then you take a break. Then you, you know, if you need something in the middle of a task, you go to the bathroom, you come back. Yeah. I mean, and at the same time, just giving yourself kindness. If it does happen, then it's okay. You can recognize it, forgive yourself and go back. And there isn't like one solution that would solve it completely, but there's lots of different small shifts. And this is what I do in my work. Like we, we look at the situations, We look at the most pressing things and we create a simple plan where people can start getting results with very small tweaks. You know, you don't need to overhaul your whole life, right? You can start with very small things and can start getting results, shifting some of, some of the energy, shifting some of the results, and then you get more space for doing bigger things.

Well, I think that some, like, you're right. Sometimes, sometimes it's just going to be like, oh yeah, I know I'm going to come back to this and it's okay. But Personally, if I'm feeling super squirrely on a particular day, then if I have to break this up because I have to go and get something to eat, or if I have to go to the bathroom or something else, I might actually talk to myself as I'm going, you were doing this before you left your desk, you were doing this before you left your desk, or leaving myself a sticky note right on the screen just saying, this is what you were doing, or making sure that just that window is open when you come back to your desk to help you. And like you said, it's all Not— there isn't one thing. And even for us, there isn't one thing for one person. Like, that person— sometimes speaking to myself works, sometimes sticky notes works. We've got to find the thing in the moment. And I think that's somewhat difficult for people to understand, is that they're not going to have just one thing that'll always work for them.

Yes. And I also think it's good to plan for your capacity. Some days you might feel really antsy and want to do a lot of things, so then you choose tasks that are like that. There's lots of different small tasks you can jump around and Check them off. And then other days you might feel like really passionate about something. So you go in and hyperfocus on one big important task, right? Other days you might feel a bit tired. So then you might do some smaller things. So it's just planning around that as well and working with your capacity, not against it. Yeah.

That's awesome. I think that's the excitement in— I understand that people, they want to try to fit into the box of what other people might call, consider normal or whatever, but I think it's You can flip it, flip the script on yourself. Instead of saying, oh geez, I wish I had more energy today, or, oh geez, I wish I could have as much capacity as I did yesterday, instead go, you know what's really cool is that I can have days that are like this and days that are like that, and I can ebb and flow with them and just really be part of that ebb and flow experience rather than fighting against it.

Yes. And also planning for your average capacity because a lot of people like would like to have like their maximum capacity all the time and they plan for that. But actually you need to plan for your average capacity and just have a few focus things. I usually have 2, 3 focus things per week that need to happen that week. And then 3 focus tasks per day that need to like absolutely happen that day and everything else, like if and when it gets done good, but if not, so today I had a morning session in, in a local HR hub, and then I have an interview with you now, and in the middle of the day I completed another task. And then these other tasks pop up and I might or might not complete them. I have those 3 focus things and everything else is just gravy, right?

Just, yeah, it's just the icing on the top or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah.

So what do you think is— I think that there are a lot of contributors to us getting overwhelmed or ending up being burnout, but like, what are some like key indicators or what are some things that you see happen often that show that path to burnout?

I think firstly, before even burnout happens, a person is very excited about something. They have a big project, a big idea, lots of excitement, lots of emotion, lots of drive, and they start doing it. And then they start skipping meals. They start skipping sleep. They start skipping all these important things. And that's when, that's the warning sign. The first is when you're excited about something and you start planning it, you need to plan your self-care throughout it as well. Right? You need to put it in your calendar.

Yes.

You know, when I first started my business, I used to, whenever I would have a big launch coming, I would book a massage. I would book a lunch with friends. I would book something that I cannot cancel because there's other people involved. And I am a recovering people pleaser, so I know I will go and make— I will take those breaks. But actually, when I do take those breaks, I come back more, not only more rested and can do more, but actually more ideas, because you always develop better ideas when you go away from a project you're working on. That's how brain works. So yeah, one thing I definitely say is plan. Plan in advance. And when you see that you have an exciting project coming up. Second, notice if you start skipping on some of your basic self-care. If you skip one lunch a month, it's okay. It shouldn't be, right? But it's okay. It can happen to somebody. But if you skip lunch a few days in a row or a few times a week, that's when you have to start paying attention. Why am I doing this to myself?

Yeah, yeah. I like that, that you book something in when you're creating that overall plan. I, I love that. I subscribe to that kind of logic. But for you to understand that you need to book it in with other people because of your people-pleasing want, that's cool. Mine is, yes, if I've— I can book it with people for that, but also if I've paid for something ahead of time. So we have this spa here in town that is my favorite place on the planet at the moment. It's called the Thermia Spa. So You could, you pay for the day and you can stay as long as you like. And they've got like places where you could sleep or rest, or you could, you have heat and there's all kinds of different things you can do. So it's a varying experience. So it's not like the same, which is nice. And so for me, it's, I've already paid for it and I booked my spot. So it has to go on my calendar. It's like a doctor's appointment at that point.

Yes. Another sign or a cause, there's so many different causes of burnout, but another I wanted to mention, cause I know like your audience is a lot of as well entrepreneurs and people who have their own passion projects is when your efforts do not bring the desired results, right? You can do exact same thing, but if it gave you a lot of great results, you'll be like exhausted, okay, if you put a lot of work, but you'll also be inspired and motivated and proud of yourself, right? But if it doesn't bring that result and you put a lot of effort, you'd be like really frustrated and disappointed and All these emotions come up, maybe shame and guilt and all these things. And then you are more likely to feel burnt out.

That's a really good take on it. Yeah, for sure.

So this is why I would like to ask people so that they can think for a moment. Okay. If this is the case, if you go into project knowing that you can't completely control the results, right? The results can be all kinds of results, right? So what can you do? To make sure you're not disappointed or frustrated if it doesn't happen? Do you maybe apply some shortcuts and not put so much effort where it doesn't need to be? Do you maybe have other identities beside this project or entrepreneurship or business that, that you have? Maybe you are also, besides being a businesswoman or a businessman, maybe you're also, I don't know, A mom or a swimmer or a knitter or some, something else. We have other projects, other hobbies, other identities that give your life meaning, give you joy, give you purpose. So, you know, if that is one thing that doesn't come out the way you want, you're not like super attached to it. Right.

Yeah. And I often say to people, and I think it's interesting the way that you framed it, but like I say to people, first of all, your business isn't your baby. And I learned that a long time ago from a really great coach. But the idea that you aren't just an entrepreneur, you have other things, that's a really important piece to understanding. Like when this doesn't go well, it's not because you totally suck. It's just that it didn't work out. But when you talked about reframing or what if it, what happens if it doesn't work out? And I always say to people, if you walk into a business relationship with someone for whatever reason, whether it's a short-term business relationship or long-term, you're excited in the beginning. So, always create your exit strategy then, right? Don't wait until the relationship falls apart to figure out how you're going to leave it. But I like that idea of doing it for the projects too, right? You're excited at the beginning of the project. So, how can you make sure that you are supported at the end of the project even if it doesn't turn out to be as great as you expected it to be? And I think that's a really cool piece that they could pull out and build themselves around that. I like that.

Thank you.

It's a great perspective because we often go into projects and we're like, yay, gung-ho, all things This is where we're going to go. And we don't think about how we're going to feel after. And you're right. Having that feeling of letdown or not getting to exactly what we wanted to do, that can cause those negative emotions, can take all the life out of us, really drain us of our energy. And that of course can lead to burnout. Why wouldn't it? Right?

Yes, absolutely. And another reason for burnout, maybe it's less common for entrepreneurs, but people who are in careers is when they have no connection and no passion at all or no meaning or what they're doing, like the company policies or culture, like do not match their values at all. So we have these 2 different extremes when you're super excited and passionate about something and when you are like completely detached and disconnected from what you're doing. These are the 2 extremes that burn out the most. Like people in the middle, they seem to manage better. So this is why I'm saying like it's better to not attach too much to your project, to your business, to make it your identity, your soul, like mission in life and purpose in life. And you need to be a little bit detached, like in a healthy way. Yeah.

And I think that even in entrepreneurship, we do have that detached thing that comes, especially if we end up working with the wrong client, or if we end up implementing something in our business that we thought was a good idea, but it really turned out to be something that we actually absolutely hated. Like maybe, for example, somebody said, oh, you know what? I want to take one-on-one clients. I've never done one-on-one clients. But I want to fill my calendar with one-on-one clients. And then they filled their client calendar and they're like, oh, I freaking hate having to get on these calls every week. They didn't realize that it was something that they weren't going to like about their business. And then we do get detached from it. We do feel burnout and stress from having created this situation. And we're like, why did I do this to myself?

Yeah, yes, absolutely.

It's crazy to think there are so many different roads to burnout because of course not only is there things we quote unquote, do to ourselves, you know, in terms of what choices we've made inside our business and those kinds of things. But even our own family lives can cause us burnout on top of what we're dealing with business, right? Things that are happening that are out of your control, but yet still impact us in this burnout or overachieving kind of, you know, burden that we have.

Yes, yes. So it doesn't matter, like at work or at home or personal life or friends, There's a lot of things that can cause burnout, things like masking, sensory overload, overwhelm, nervous system dysregulation, and a ton of others that can really happen anywhere.

It's absolutely interesting. And I think that what, to me, I think that what I've noticed in people is that for the most part, I don't know if it's a societal thing. I don't know if it's just everybody just needs to push harder. You're not doing as well, you push harder. You're not doing as well, push harder. If you're not reaching your goals, push And that isn't helpful specifically for us as neurodivergent people. I think neurotypicals have an, I don't wanna say easier time, but they seem to be able to move through it in a more fluid way, I suppose, than those of us who are neurodivergent. But we get caught in that cycle and to be able to just identify something, like you said, that one small thing, like just do one small tweak on the way, if we can figure out how to, pick up on those things. Obviously, working with someone is really helpful because they can see it because you can't see the— it's like, you know, I often say it's like we're in the middle of a tornado, but somebody looking in goes, hey, by the way, that shed that keeps hitting you on the side of the head as it spins around the tornado, maybe you just want to move to the left a little.

Yeah, yeah. It's like having blind spots if you drive, parking, and you know that there is a blind spot where you cannot see unless you turn. But With, with your own things like that, it's very hard to turn. You need someone to point you at something so you can turn and see it.

Yeah, no kidding. I think that's, I don't think that we put enough value in that. And a lot of it is, you know, some people think, oh geez, it's not good to ask for help. I should, here we go with the shoulds, right? I should be able to identify this for myself. Why am I? Put in whatever words you want that you've been told all the way along that isn't a nice word. You know, why can't I do these things? I see other people and they can do these things. But reality is, I mean, maybe they can't either. They just look like they're doing it better, right?

Yeah. One thing I'd like to share that really helped me on my burnout recovery is I heard this concept called— I don't remember how it was called, maybe radical self-kindness or something like that, or radical self-love or Something like that. It's just that notion of imagine what would be the most radical kind thing that you can do to yourself right now. So for example, if you have a small child and you need to go to the dentist, you can ask somebody like, oh, can you just watch them for just 1 hour? I just pop to the dentist. But actually the most radical thing would be like, can you watch them for the whole day so I can also maybe do some shopping and get a massage? And You know, and we are so scared to do these things, but then you do it. And then, you know, that they'll say, you know what, I can't do the whole day, but I can do half a day and it's still going to be like such a great thing for you. So I was just starting. I started thinking in those terms and that really helped me in the recovery and afterwards in prevention to, to really think what is the best thing that I don't even dare to dream of. But actually when you ask or when you look for ways, You still find ways or even half ways that are still much better than what you first start with. So I'd like to invite people to practice this more.

I like it. I like it. And sometimes we can't figure out, like, sometimes you're in, you're in a pit, right? And you can't necessarily see what do you want because you're just so buried in all this stuff. But, and you can look at it from the other side. You can say, I, maybe I hate it when blah, blah, blah. I hate it when I have to find 10 minutes in the day to be able to go and I don't know, meditate. I wish somebody could help me with that. Oh, hold on a second. There it is, right? There's that glimmer. So sometimes when you look at it from the negative perspective, you can find the positive. If you can't immediately see the positive, just try to turn the negative around. So if you're like, I hate that I can never go to the bathroom on my own. I know that was a big deal when my kids were little. I have dogs now and sometimes they wanna come to the bathroom. I'm like, no, you guys can live on your own. I did this with babies. I'm not doing it with the dogs, you know? This is my time. But like, you know, if you look at it like, geez, I hate it when I can't go to the bathroom on my own, then you can turn it around and go, what if I could go to the bathroom on my own? Like, how could I do that? And then be able to find those positives that you're talking about and those radical self-care or self-love things. I love that.

Yeah, thank you.

So have you worked with people that have had trouble finding the things that they want in their life?

Yes, I think some people, when they are stuck in a certain point, like in their career or in their business, and they don't like it anymore, but then they don't know what they would like. And then I usually recommend to focus on recovery first so you have better self-care, more energy, more motivation, more joy in life and other areas of life. Then you have better clarity about what you can change or how the bigger picture might look like for you. Because when people are in burnout or at risk of burnout, it's hard to think clearly and really understand how you want to create your new reality. A lot of people quit jobs, quit businesses on a whim to try to escape from all these things that are happening around. But actually, it doesn't always help. It definitely brings a temporary relief, right? You're feeling so good giving that notice or firing your clients. Like in that moment you feel great, but then, then what? You still have to heal. You still have to recover. And then you don't necessarily have the income. You don't have the clarity. Then you might pick something that feels good. But again, without that clarity of understanding how it actually is better. Because if you haven't changed the underlying things, I don't know, for example, people pleasing or boundaries, you will still end up in the same situation, like in a new job or with the new clients or whatever. You know, working on these things first, I find that is often better. It actually helps you resolve, and then you can create an exit plan if you need to, with more clarity and more understanding what it needs to look like for you. Of course, it's not always the case. And sometimes there are cases when, when a person needs to leave, but that's, that really varies. Again, it really, it is really helpful to talk to someone to fully understand the situation. Yes.

Oh my goodness. If there was one thing that you wanted to make sure that people heard or knew about by listening to you and hearing what you have to say about this, what would it be?

I would like to say that Burnout is not your fault, but healing is your responsibility. I love that.

That's awesome. We will have all the ways to connect with you in our show notes for everybody who is listening here, who wants to get in touch with you and learn more about what you do. And I am super excited and thank you so much for being here. You've brought some really cool ideas to the table. And I hope that people will take action.

Yes, yes, let's hope that.

Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it and have a great week.

Thank you, Angela, and all the best wishes to you and the listeners. Thank you.

Have a great day.

Thanks.

Thank you so much for listening to the Overgivers Anonymous podcast. Your support means the world to me. You can find show notes for this episode and other goodies at overgiversanonymous.com. And if you enjoyed this episode or you enjoy the podcast in general, why not join us in the Overgivers Anonymous Facebook group where you can connect with overgivers from all over the world? Head on over to geekygirl.ca/group.